View Full Version : Employment: is the worm turning?
percy toboggan
30-Jan-09, 18:51
Good to see Scottish workers at Grangemouth supporting their ENglish counterparts today.
Politicians of all parties need a kick up the pants when foreign contractors will NOT ENTERTAIN APPLICATIONS FROM BRITISH WORKERS.[disgust]
Too many skilled jobs are going. We are not training enough apprentices in practical trades.
We need to stop this rot.
Yes new jobs are being created we here...ASDA and SUBWAY :roll:...all very well for part-timers and Mums with kids but do we really want to become a nation of shelf stackers and butty cutters. I'd hope not.
The French took to the streets yesterday in protest...I really hope the actions of the workers in Lincolnshire and elsewhere yields results.
Why should foreign workers be boarded on ships, spending many months away from home when there are local agreements and local labour in plentiful supply?
Get the foreigners in when the indigenous labour force cannot meet demand. Can you honestly see any Italian project being exclusively staffed by British workers? Couls you imagine those brickies in Auf Wiedersehen Pet being allowed to usurp German workers? rendering them redundant?
I'm against protectionism, but we need a sense of fair play and realism here. If a British welder needs work then let him weld in Britain if there is welding to be done.
Good to see Scottish workers at Grangemouth supporting their ENglish counterparts today.
Politicians of all parties need a kick up the pants when foreign contractors will NOT ENTERTAIN APPLICATIONS FROM BRITISH WORKERS.[disgust]
Too many skilled jobs are going. We are not training enough apprentices in practical trades.
We need to stop this rot.
Yes new jobs are being created we here...ASDA and SUBWAY :roll:...all very well for part-timers and Mums with kids but do we really want to become a nation of shelf stackers and butty cutters. I'd hope not.
The French took to the streets yesterday in protest...I really hope the actions of the workers in Lincolnshire and elsewhere yields results.
Why should foreign workers be boarded on ships, spending many months away from home when there are local agreements and local labour in plentiful supply?
Get the foreigners in when the indigenous labour force cannot meet demand. Can you honestly see any Italian project being exclusively staffed by British workers? Couls you imagine those brickies in Auf Wiedersehen Pet being allowed to usurp German workers? rendering them redundant?
I'm against protectionism, but we need a sense of fair play and realism here. If a British welder needs work then let him weld in Britain if there is welding to be done.This situation was always going to happen when the foreigner started making inroads into the trades. "That they are only doing the jobs that the Lazy British don't want"; doesn't have quite the same impact as an excuse anymore..
Wonder how many of them have the relevant qualifications for the industry, JIB cards, SCATS cards (AKA Safety Passport) etc. Ill wager some havent even got a passport. The EU has got a lot to answer for and the sooner were out of it the better.
This situation was always going to happen when the foreigner started making inroads into the trades. "That they are only doing the jobs that the Lazy British don't want"; doesn't have quite the same impact as an excuse anymore..
Exactly. If theyre only taking the jobs the "lazy" Brits dont want how come theyre picketing.
changilass
30-Jan-09, 21:11
I don't see anyone complaining when british workers go to work elsewhere in the EU, you can't have it all ways.
I don't see anyone complaining when british workers go to work elsewhere in the EU, you can't have it all ways.Are they not being refused the right to work in their own country?
changilass
30-Jan-09, 21:17
No they are not being te refused the right to work in their own country, its simply that a company from another country won the contract. British workers have been working outwith the country for years.
No they are not being te refused the right to work in their own country, its simply that a company from another country won the contract. British workers have been working outwith the country for years.So what's wrong with using the British labour that is already in place?
changilass
30-Jan-09, 21:41
The company that won the contract will have their own full time staff, why would they want to take on more staff only to have to pay them off at a later date.
It may not be the best thing for the British economy at the moment, but as we are part of the EU we have to abide by all the rules, not just the ones we like the sound of.
as we are part of the EU we have to abide by all the rules, not just the ones we like the sound of.
There is a 'new' EU spec for asphalt, which took 18 years(!) to work out, that came into force last year signed by all member states. The UK Government and UK asphalt suppliers have agreed to abide by the new spec however France, Spain and Romania have decided to ignore EU rules and continue to produce their own spec.
Why should we abide by the rules when the foreign member states don't?
Good to see Scottish workers at Grangemouth supporting their ENglish counterparts today.........
Too many skilled jobs are going. We are not training enough apprentices in practical trades.
We need to stop this rot..........
If the worm had any sense he'd put his head firmly in the sand and keep digging downwards.
I didn't see the news item to which you refer so can't comment on the Grangemouth situation.
The shortage of skilled tradesmen is not a new phenomenon. It's been happening over a number of years now. There are several reasons for this and one (only one) is the lack of incentive for businesses in this country to train apprentices in any given trade. The fact is that the brightest and best apprentices, when they finally secure their "qualified ticket" and are still young, with no personal ties, succumb to the lure of the Offshore/Overseas companies.
I can't disagree with that.
cuddlepop
30-Jan-09, 23:04
Its about time something was done.
All to often contracts are won even here on Skye with the promise of local jobs for local people ,only a token number ever get employed.[disgust]
Our brand new PPP funded school had a significant proportion of Polish workers,which as you can imagine led to a fair few weekend brawls as the pubs spilt.:(
Its about time something was done.
All to often contracts are won even here on Skye with the promise of local jobs for local people ,only a token number ever get employed.[disgust]
Our brand new PPP funded school had a significant proportion of Polish workers,which as you can imagine led to a fair few weekend brawls as the pubs spilt.:(The sooner we leave this European union which ties our hands behind our back for the benefit of other countries the better.
The sooner we leave this European union which ties our hands behind our back for the benefit of other countries the better.
I couldn't agree more. Maybe then we will get free Groats and specialist shops to cater for our Cathness tastes:D
I couldn't agree more. Maybe then we will get free Groats and specialist shops to cater for our Cathness tastes:DAh, the pleasures of life.[lol]
At the moment there are a lot of missing parts about what is happening.
The only thing which seems to be certain is that an Italian firm has tendered successfully for a construction contract and wishes to use it's own workers who are Italian and Portuguese. Other than that there seems to be a lot of rumours and suppositions.
There doesn’t seem to be any information at present as to just what the job they are contracted to do comprises, how technical it is, how long it will take, how many workers are involved and a host of other unknowns.
It could be that the people involved are already trained and work as a team on highly complex work. In that case I can understand them bringing their own workforce.
In that case bringing their own workforce would make sense.
On the other hand it could be that the job is little more than stacking bricks, mixing cement and lugging stuff around and the workforce are little more than itinerant labourers simply taken on for this contract.
In that case there would seem to be a cause for complaint from the local workforce.
Then again, there is always the possibility that some rabble-rouser has been stirring things up for some ulterior motive and simply using the local workforce as cannon fodder.
There seems to be a desperate need for a lot more information to be made available because the rumour mill seems to be working overtime with nobody, other than presumably the two companies, knowing what the heck is actually happening and, unless things have changed recently, nobody in the media seems to have tried to get clarification from them.
I amglad that at last some people are "striking" about this. It is appalling that a company based in Britain is hiring foreign companies and labour. With unemployment approaching 2m why not the government step in and force these companies to employ locals? And to keep the balance fair they could force some long terem unemployed into taking on any vacancies.(Ones that are capable)Even if someone only got 6 months work out of it they would be earning more money and spending more money which would help the economy get back on its feet.Its too easy for companies to blame "lazy brits" and give the jobs to other nationals,. There are plenty out there looking for jobs but they cant get them because they speak the wrong language!!!!;)
Dają amerykański praca sprawiać przyjemność (proszę)
brokencross
31-Jan-09, 09:40
It is Gordon Brown's soundbite at a union conference "British Jobs for British Workers" coming back to bite him on the bum.
If press reports are correct, Total (a French company), sub contracted Jacobs Engineering (an American company) to oversee the construction. Jacobs went out to tender, an Italian company won the tender process fair and square and wish to use their own company labour to carry out the work. Simple as!!
When you join a club, the EU, and trumpet all its benefits, you can't then change the rules because they don't suit you at that moment. It is a sad state of affairs but appears all above board, no matter how hard it is to stomach.
percy toboggan
31-Jan-09, 16:37
I don't see anyone complaining when british workers go to work elsewhere in the EU, you can't have it all ways.
But Changi.. can you name one foreign project exclusively staffed by British workers who have decamped en masse to live on site to the exclusion of locals?
changilass
31-Jan-09, 16:43
No I can't Percy.
I wouldn't know how to go about finding this information out either.
I didn't say I approved of what is happening, just that we can't complain about it, we signed up to the EU and have to lie in the bed we made, wether we like it or not.
Hopefully it will be a lesson learned for the future
percy toboggan
31-Jan-09, 16:44
It is Gordon Brown's soundbite at a union conference "British Jobs for British Workers" coming back to bite him on the bum.
If press reports are correct, Total (a French company), sub contracted Jacobs Engineering (an American company) to oversee the construction. Jacobs went out to tender, an Italian company won the tender process fair and square and wish to use their own company labour to carry out the work. Simple as!!
When you join a club, the EU, and trumpet all its benefits, you can't then change the rules because they don't suit you at that moment. It is a sad state of affairs but appears all above board, no matter how hard it is to stomach.
But the club has changed beyond all recognition to the one we opted to join thirty four years ago. Thanks to the Franco-German axis of power and the reluctance of other member states to fully follow all the rules..Britain has seen itself almost marginalised at times , and generally the loser in terms of fair play.
In my view we need another referendum. If not advocating withdrawal the whole idea of federalism and national sovereignty AND BORDERS needs to be re-examined in the light of the 21st.century.
Peoples were neve rmeant to mingle to this extent...it's doomed to fail and end in violence and possibly even a reversion to nationalism.
The status quo is not fit for purpose.
The Oracle
31-Jan-09, 23:13
It is Gordon Brown's soundbite at a union conference "British Jobs for British Workers" coming back to bite him on the bum.
If press reports are correct, Total (a French company), sub contracted Jacobs Engineering (an American company) to oversee the construction. Jacobs went out to tender, an Italian company won the tender process fair and square and wish to use their own company labour to carry out the work. Simple as!!
When you join a club, the EU, and trumpet all its benefits, you can't then change the rules because they don't suit you at that moment. It is a sad state of affairs but appears all above board, no matter how hard it is to stomach.
First of all, as you would expect because of the way the media generate stories these days, Gordon Browns comments have been taken out of context.
With regards to 'fair and square' tender process. I know someone who is working on a major construction project won 'fair and square' by a French company. They used UK labour but brought in their own engineers and equipment.
The job has been continually redesigned as the French standards were not fit for purpose. The equipment again does not conform and is not fit for purpose and is repeatedly having to be replaced or upgraded.
The end result the £190m project is £70m overspent.
That overspend is not absorbed by the French company and the cost of the project has to rise.
'Fair and square' now seems a little hollow when UK companies who put forward more accurate tenders for a 'fit for purpose' plant were excluded because they were not the cheapest on paper!
percy toboggan
01-Feb-09, 00:37
Just for the record...as a wide eyed (never legless) 24 year old Postman, I voted NO in 1975.
The referendum bumph was great for overtime though!
The Oracle, if Brown’s comments about "British Jobs for British Workers" was deliberately taken so badly out of context by the media why was it never corrected?
The very fact that neither Brown or anybody in the Government were in the least bit unhappy for that impression, not only to be given, but for the public to be allowed to continue to believe it.
Perhaps you would care to enlighten us as to what the correct context was and what he actually did say. I certainly would like to know as I suspect would many others.
Apart from that, it seems that Brown was informed some three weeks ago, by the leader of the Unite Union, that trouble was brewing because skilled construction workers were feeling disgruntled about the situation, yet nothing was done.
It would appear that the information was simply ignored.
The Oracle
01-Feb-09, 13:42
The Oracle, if Brown’s comments about "British Jobs for British Workers" was deliberately taken so badly out of context by the media why was it never corrected?
The very fact that neither Brown or anybody in the Government were in the least bit unhappy for that impression, not only to be given, but for the public to be allowed to continue to believe it.
Perhaps you would care to enlighten us as to what the correct context was and what he actually did say. I certainly would like to know as I suspect would many others.
Apart from that, it seems that Brown was informed some three weeks ago, by the leader of the Unite Union, that trouble was brewing because skilled construction workers were feeling disgruntled about the situation, yet nothing was done.
It would appear that the information was simply ignored.
For the whole speech follow this link,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7010664.stm
For the actual portion which was been widely abridged by the media
As we set out on the next stage of our journey this is our vision: Britain leading the global economy - by our skills and creativity, by our enterprise and flexibility, by our investment in transport and infrastructure - a world leader in science; a world leader in financial and business services; a world leader in energy and the environment from nuclear to renewables; a world leader in the creative industries; and yes - modern manufacturing too - drawing on the talents of all to create British jobs for British workers.
I hope this helps.
The point of my earlier post was to highlight the unfair and possibly corrupt tendering process where the true cost of projects is often far higher than quoted, so preventing accurate tenders from winning contracts as the cheapest quote nearly always wins.
I think there is an important distinction to be made when considering this. I dont see the problem with migrant workers coming to this country to apply for jobs and see if they get appointed and can hold down the job. I have no problem in this and if they get a job good luck to them. The difference with this is that the company has brought a complete workforce with them from another country to do ALL the jobs on a particular contract. That is just not on. In a different life I tried time after time after time to persuade those statutory organisations responsible for awarding contracts and encouraging inward investment to secure jobs for local people - in those days it was likely they would bring workers from other parts of the UK. I never succeeded - the word on the street was that they didnt want to put obstacles in the way of the companies coming in. I wondered often whether they just thought the people in the local area were just a complete waste of time. that was often the impression i got. In these economic times its important that we try to ensure that where jobs are coming in for a particular contract this benefits the local economy. i shall be watching this row closely and hoping to see some changes. If i wasnt pregnant and looking after a baby I would be waving my flag as close tot he front line as i could. It makes me mad.
The sooner we leave this European union which ties our hands behind our back for the benefit of other countries the better.
And as far as I know only one political party are withdrawing membership of the EU, but you cant vote for them as it would be racist, wouldnt it?
Penelope Pitstop
03-Feb-09, 12:51
I think there is an important distinction to be made when considering this. I dont see the problem with migrant workers coming to this country to apply for jobs and see if they get appointed and can hold down the job. I have no problem in this and if they get a job good luck to them. The difference with this is that the company has brought a complete workforce with them from another country to do ALL the jobs on a particular contract. That is just not on. In a different life I tried time after time after time to persuade those statutory organisations responsible for awarding contracts and encouraging inward investment to secure jobs for local people - in those days it was likely they would bring workers from other parts of the UK. I never succeeded - the word on the street was that they didnt want to put obstacles in the way of the companies coming in. I wondered often whether they just thought the people in the local area were just a complete waste of time. that was often the impression i got. In these economic times its important that we try to ensure that where jobs are coming in for a particular contract this benefits the local economy. i shall be watching this row closely and hoping to see some changes. If i wasnt pregnant and looking after a baby I would be waving my flag as close tot he front line as i could. It makes me mad.
Yes this company is taking all 200 or so workers with them.
As the company is registered in Italy not UK will the employees pay their taxes and NI in Italy?
The company has taken their own floating hotel with them. None of the local UK companies will benefit from subsistence e.g. hotels, B&Bs or restaurants. The cooks, cleaners on the floating hotel won't be locals either.:(
I often wonder why the UK doesn't take a leaf out of the Norwegians book. If you go to work over there on the continental shelf or onshore you pay their tax and NI from day one of doing any work over there. Therefore, anyone gaining employment from their country pays them for it.
I think the UK looses out on works in the North Sea.
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