Auschwitz - stay or go?

[Valerie Campbell]

On the run up to Holocaust Day, I read on the BBC two differing points of view on the future of the Auschwitz camp. On the one hand, that nature should reclaim it; on the other, it should be retained. What do Orgers think? Personally I think it should be kept as a symbol of 'man's inhumanity to man.' I have an aerial photo of Bergen Belsen which I can hardly bear to look at because I can see the victims standing in a square while gas billows from a chimney nearby. It's the most stark thing I possess. I also have one which shows German civilians after the war being forced to walk though another camp.

[brokencross]

My daughter went to Poland to teach English on an exchange basis and while there she was taken to Auschwitz on a visit.
She said she couldn't explain the feelings that came over her while she was there, anger, disbelief, great sorrow.....every emotion going.
What she really did feel was a sense of peace and quiet...an eery tranquility she had never felt before.

I have never been there but I think it should be kept as a symbol and a "warning" to future generations.

[Boozeburglar]

I have visited several, and I firmly believe they should be at least partly preserved as they were.

[Kenn]

Should definitely by kept as a memorial to the millions who died and a reminder of just how low human kind can sink, even within living memory.

[trix]

Should definitely by kept as a memorial to the millions who died and a reminder of just how low human kind can sink, even within living memory.

absolutely lizz...

hevin bin ayre masel i can honestly say that it wis 'e most harrowin experience o' ma life an i too think it should be kept as it wis.

it wis an experience i will never forget an it released emotions inside me, at 'e time that i didna even know existed!!
bein all roond it, sat on their toilets, stood in 'e gas chamber an seen all their belongings, their cases, their clothes, baby clothes....their hair....(turned gray by 'e gas) :~(:~(

iv read lots an lots on 'e subject an feel that it is owed til, no choost 'e (hundreds o' thousands) o' people that died, or their memory but til 'e world...til remind us on how bad humanity can steep til..stooped til.

in ma opinion 'e whole world failed these people an if they pulled it doon it would show a lack o' respect. it is afterall a massive gravesite.

if anyone wanted til read an autobiography from someone (a doctor) that wis taken from her home wi' her 2 young children, her husband (also a doctor) an her elderly parents an basically led til their diminish - obviously all except 'e hersel as it wis her that wrote 'e book. she actually unwittingly sent her youngest son til his death cos she told a lie aboot his age. she said he wis younger tryin til protect him - bad move!!

5 chimneys by olga.......2nd name slips ma mind. its no hard til find tho.

[teenybash]

Auschwitz should stay as a lasting memorium to mans inhumanity to man......let us never forget. Everyone who has posted have said it all.
Bless those who in their innocence were led to their horrific death....rest in peace.

[hotrod4]

As others have said it has an eerie silence. My Father in law went there as he had Family that had "passed" through those gates.He said it was a very harrowing experience and very very quiet. He also said that you couldnt even hear the birds its as if they knew what had happened there.
It should be preserved as a reminder of just how low man can get and how we should never take anything for granted.Its shameful how some members of society deny it ever happened!!!!:(

[MadPict]

I visited Belsen many years ago. Only burial mounds remain and a small information centre. Very strange atmosphere and the birds fly around the site rather than fly over it.

While there are those alive who dispute that the Holocaust ever happened their is a need for physical evidence. And I believe that even after the last disbeliver has gone it should remain as a monument.

[Thomas Farmer]

Olga Lengyel was her name trix, brilliant read.

[bekisman]

I think; keep it as it is as a lasting reminder - In Germany the school kids are taken to death camps (not all regions but Bavaria is going to)


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5468635.ece

[hotrod4]

It doesnt help when you get guys like this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1127338/Jewish-fury-Pope-reinstates-British-priest-denies-Holocaust.html

Shameful.[evil]

[Bad Manners]

It should stay as the stark reminder of how low man can sink we all pay our respects to those who died in active service buy the laying of a poppy reef let us not forget those who died for no other reason than that of ethnic cleansing.
peace be to them who fell sleep be to them who dream of a better world

[percy toboggan]

Let nature reclaim Auschwitz. The bonemeal buried below will only spur on the process.

Modernise the message. Show the flattened homes of Gaza...the bodies of bombed children and the enormous suffering which the BBC is ever so impartial about.

That all of this is perpetrated by the descendants of the Auschwitz death camps makes the message all the more powerful. Forget the 'to man' bit ... humanity just has the capability to be inhuman. The sooner we accept that the better.

'Arbeit macht frei'...aye that'll be right.
Arbeit gets you nowhere apart from closer to the grave. If it's a non-communal one consider yerself a winner.

[wee sparkle]

A few of my friends visited the site whilst on an exchange trip organised by the High School. They said that when they visited it, they felt all sorts of emotions, but it was an experience. In my opinion i think it should be preserved, as a reminder of what happened, since many people are now trying to deny the whole event. I think that is unacceptable, we should admit our faults, own up to them, but not deny them. :D:D

[Kirdon]

Should be kept and looked after as it is part of our history and should never be denied

[butterfly]

It should stay as the stark reminder of how low man can sink we all pay our respects to those who died in active service buy the laying of a poppy reef let us not forget those who died for no other reason than that of ethnic cleansing.
peace be to them who fell sleep be to them who dream of a better world
agree ,the whole world should never be allowed to forget what went on there.:(

[Whitewater]

All the camp sites need to be kept. I havn't been there myself, but I did, during the 1960s, meet a number of survivors, we happened to be working in the same place. They showed me the numbers tatood on their inner arms, funny how a simple thing like that can give you the creeps. The sites all have to be preserved in memory of the millions who died and to remind the world of what can happen when a nation goes mad. They also have to be kept in order to kill off the present movement of modern zealots who try to tell us the holocaust never happened.

However, I only wish that the present Jews living in Israel would not contiue to try to bring themselves down to level of the people who persecuted them.

[Fly]

It doesnt help when you get guys like this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1127338/Jewish-fury-Pope-reinstates-British-priest-denies-Holocaust.html

Shameful.[evil]

Hardly a surprise. Many of the inhabitants of the Vatican were sympathetic towards the Nazis.
As for Gaza as quoted by percy toboggan, Hammas has done its share of causing trouble there.
None of the camps including Auschwitz should be allowed to return to nature but kept as a reminder of a dreadful time in history and a memorial to those murdered there.[evil][disgust]

[piratelassie]

Yes it is still hard to believe that this really happened.The camps should stay as a reminder.

[trix]

Olga Lengyel was her name trix, brilliant read.

cheers for 'at mr farmer...

when i think aboot'ed, im prity sure it wis someone special who recommended it til me in 'e first place ;)

[The Pepsi Challenge]

I'm going to Krakow in April, so will be visiting Auschwitz while am there. Can't say it will be a happy holiday; more an educational vacation.

[tisme]

I was in Krakow a couple of years ago, and visited Auschwitz and Birkenau. It is a feeling I will never forget. I never thought I could get so emotional about anything I wasn't personally invloved with and was truly surprised at the overwhelming feeling of sadness and anger that came over me. The sight of all the false limbs, suitcases, hair, specs, baby clothes etc. will stay with me forever. Surely this has to be kept as a reminder of how bad things can be. How the jews still believe in god after that place is a mystery to me.

[Fluff]

When I visited my brother in Germany a couple of years ago he lived near the woods that were around Belsen. I cannot describe the feeling it gave me when going past it.
He took me to a see a mass Russian grave (I think it was orthodox Jewish if that is right) It was strangly calm and peaceful, but so so sad.
I do think these places should be preserved, it seems right.

[celtic 302]

I seem to have a differing view point than most of the other posters. I think they should either let it be reclaimed, or actively go about dismanteling it. I have never been there, but in my opinion, if it takes having to go to somewhere like that to make you feel grief about what happened, then you are somewhat cold hearted. In my opinion, we always seem to think that teaching our children of the bad we did will somehow change how they are going to turn out, or change the fact that there will always be evil people in the world.

Auschwitz has been standing there since the second world war, and yet there are still numerous wars going on. Its has no educational value, apart from to tell us how evil went about killing people. Please, someone point out how it has helped the world?

The sooner it is gone, the better. It only remains so that we can torture our own consciences for not stoping it soon enough, or for not doing anything about it. And don't give me any of that, "the man who forgets history repeats it" rubbish, for destroying the remains will not remove it from our memories or from our history books.

[MadPict]

Belsen won't be touched because it is a mass graveyard - the mounds I mentioned earlier contained thousands of victims. So it's never going to be ploughed over and turned into a housing estate.

Likewise, Auschwitz is the 'final resting place' of between 800,000 to five million people - this alone means that it should remain as a monument to those victims, in my humble opinion. A stark monument maybe, but the sheer numbers who were put to death on that ground, makes it more apt than a nice park with kiddies swings and a boating pond...

Percy, one point -

That all of this is perpetrated by the descendants of the Auschwitz death camps makes the message all the more powerful...
Those who died in the death camps didn't have the opportunity to have 'descendants'...

[squareman]

It should stay as a reminder to the world of the terrible attrocities that happened here not so long ago.

[trix]

I seem to have a differing view point than most of the other posters. I think they should either let it be reclaimed, or actively go about dismanteling it. I have never been there, but in my opinion, if it takes having to go to somewhere like that to make you feel grief about what happened, then you are somewhat cold hearted.

completely disagree wi ye celtic bhoy. try til imagine 'e emotions that ye wid feel at a prison camp....then, go til 'e actual camp an these emotions are amplified more than a hundred times.
ye can actually feel 'e peoples bewilderment, sense their horror o' what hes hapened. ye can feel their loss....their helplessness an ye can feel 'e control that they were under.

coldhearted isna 'e word i wid use...


In my opinion, we always seem to think that teaching our children of the bad we did will somehow change how they are going to turn out, or change the fact that there will always be evil people in the world.

not at all, we choost want a reminder o' how bad things actually became. mind, there are still people alive who can recall stories aboot 'e dreaded place. it didna happen in 'e dark ages...it wis only 60 years ago.


Auschwitz has been standing there since the second world war, and yet there are still numerous wars going on. Its has no educational value, apart from to tell us how evil went about killing people. Please, someone point out how it has helped the world?

do ye understand 'e whole concept o' Auschwitz? i da want til patronize ye but.....apparently not a soul knew they were there!!! unmarked graves, little children :~( do ye know aboot 'e experiments that went on? operations withoot proper tools or disinfectant. can ye understand that these people were starvin, an any human rights stripped awie fie them, along wi their clothes, family, identity!!!
how can so many people hev suffered an died an no-one knew aboot'ed?
ats 'e lesson that we are learnin, that one man hed such control :eek:


The sooner it is gone, the better. It only remains so that we can torture our own consciences for not stoping it soon enough, or for not doing anything about it. And don't give me any of that, "the man who forgets history repeats it" rubbish, for destroying the remains will not remove it from our memories or from our history books.

but it may dilute 'e fact that one man hed control over whether these guys lived or died....one man!!!

[loobyloo]

I don't understand why anyone would want to destroy it. That's like burning all the history books or documents that contain 'nasty' bits (the Nazis did plenty of this when they realised they'd lost the war). It strikes me as being in the same ilk as those who don't watch the news because they can't cope with bad things happening in the world.
6 million people were murdered. Many people have no idea what happened to their families. I think we should all be reminded of what was lost, the inhumanity that took place amongst 'normal' people (Gestapo could never have achieved their aims without the help of the people) and also, the huge acts of courage and bravery that happened. I have never been to any concentration camps but I would imagine it is an overwhelming experience.
I do think a physical reminder is important. History is open to interpretation and a tangible monument is one way of making sure we don't forget. That's why they take school kids to these places: seeing the brutal reality of what happened is different altogether from reading it in a book.

[celtic 302]

...apparently not a soul knew they were there!!!

Not true. Information was available to the Allies from 1940 onwards, we just choose to ignore it as gross exaggeration. It wasn't until 1944 when escapee's corroborated the reports from the Polish resistance that the Allies started doing anything about it. To coin a phrase, I'm not trying to patronize you, but I think you need to check where you got your information.


but it may dilute 'e fact that one man hed control over whether these guys lived or died....one man!!!

No. Wrong. I disagree with that statement as much as is possible to disagree. This was not just one man. It may have been his plans, but it took millions of Germans to agree with him for this to happen. This could easily have been stopped had German soldiers just not followed orders. And don't bother trying to tell me it wasn't that easy. I don't buy it. If people didn't do what he said, then he was powerless.

To leave Auschwitz standing accomplishes nothing, as I have said already. But if you want to leave it standing, attach a plaque saying: "2 million people died here due to Allied incompetence."

[wee sparkle]

This could easily have been stopped had German soldiers just not followed orders. And don't bother trying to tell me it wasn't that easy. I don't buy it. If people didn't do what he said, then he was powerless.

As true as that is, If a German soldier disobeyed orders they were shot on the spot...... so faced with the choice i'd imagine you'd be too scared to say " right who's with me?!" because people were rewarded for snitching on others, and those who were thought to be against Hitler were rid of. They didnt need proof, and you had no rights. So yes, many probably were against it, but just to frightened to stand up for what they believed in. :confused

[Jeid]

I went there last August, in fact, I've always had a strange fascination with the goings on of WWII since I was about 14. I've always said that I'd go to Auschwitz and I did.

It was a very interesting place. Very peaceful, quite eerie. I think I'd go again, probably not as part of a tour this time though, just to walk around. I thought that the people who work there were very well educated about the goings on. It'd be a shame to see the place rot away. It's an important part of world history which should be taken care of to remind the world how terrible man can be.

I'll never forget my trip to Auschwitz. Just being in the place was very emotional. The things I saw will stay with me forever. Nobody should have to live through that again and nobody should be allowed to forget it.

[celtic 302]

I can almost agree with you wee sparkle, but not quite. But I feel that we are going slightly of topic. Either way, in my opinion Auschwitz needs to go.

[Tilter]

I too think the place should be locked up and left alone, with some kind of memorial to mark it. I read in the article a suggestion that it be treated as a sanctified sea grave, e.g., like the Arizona, and left alone. To me that would be more fitting than having Auschwitz tourists trudging all over ground where so many suffered so much.

Everyone knew about those camps and nothing was done, so it wasn't just the Germans to blame. And not to detract in any way from the evils of the Holocaust, there have been worse genocides. Some are still going on.

Maybe I'd think differently if I had been there - I don't know.

[tisme]

Originally Posted by celtic 302
if it takes having to go to somewhere like that to make you feel grief about what happened, then you are somewhat cold hearted

What!!! Jesus man are you real?? Do you think people go there for the entertainment value! The reason you go is because you cannot believe such atrocities existed. The camp just confirms all the feelings you had before you see it for real, and it's about paying respect to the lives that were lost there. Whether you agree or disagree that it should be left as a memorial site just think before you open your mouth and let yer belly rumble.[disgust]

[celtic 302]

Originally Posted by celtic 302
if it takes having to go to somewhere like that to make you feel grief about what happened, then you are somewhat cold hearted

What!!! Jesus man are you real?? Do you think people go there for the entertainment value! The reason you go is because you cannot believe such atrocities existed. The camp just confirms all the feelings you had before you see it for real, and it's about paying respect to the lives that were lost there. Whether you agree or disagree that it should be left as a memorial site just think before you open your mouth and let yer belly rumble.[disgust]

I just love it when people misunderstand what I've said, and then go off on some stupid patronizing rant when if they just read the damn thing in the first place they would realise how stupid they sounded. So typical of people up here.

Did I at any point say that people go there for fun, or for any other reason than to remember those that were lost? No. What I instead said was that if you need to go there to actually have these feelings then you are rather cold hearted, and you are. If it takes going to Auschwitz, or Ground Zero, or Stalingrad to make you feel sympathy for the deaths, then you are cold hearted. That is what I said.

Whether you agree or disagree, read before you open your mouth and let your belly rumble.[disgust]

[tisme]

I just love it when people misunderstand what I've said, and then go off on some stupid patronizing rant when if they just read the damn thing in the first place they would realise how stupid they sounded. So typical of people up here.

Did I at any point say that people go there for fun, or for any other reason than to remember those that were lost? No. What I instead said was that if you need to go there to actually have these feelings then you are rather cold hearted, and you are. If it takes going to Auschwitz, or Ground Zero, or Stalingrad to make you feel sympathy for the deaths, then you are cold hearted. That is what I said.

Whether you agree or disagree, read before you open your mouth and let your belly rumble.[disgust]
Oh how you must struggle to put up with all the 'people up here' having so much distain for 'them and their likes with their own opinions'. Can you please explain to me your reasoning for why people are so cold hearted by visiting such places, on second thought best not, I wouldn't understand it anyway would I.:roll: I said people go to pay their respects for the dead, not to go and feel sympathy. So by your logic then the likes of poppy day and visiting Normandy and such like is just for cold hearted people who need a day to feel sympathy? Hmm nice logic, I think it is you who are being patronising sir. Oh hold on a sec...........that's it rumble over.

[oldmarine]

I can almost agree with you wee sparkle, but not quite. But I feel that we are going slightly of topic. Either way, in my opinion Auschwitz needs to go.


Celtic: It's good to see that you are in the minority. If it was the other way, I would be concerned that our fellow human beings were getting cold hearted. Having served during WW2 I saw much of inhuman nature that I never would have expected. We need memorials such as these to remind present day citizens of how low humans can be. The Nazis were mostly inhuman to human beings. We should never allow things like that to happen again. You are entitled to your opinions, but I wish to disagree with them.

[celtic 302]

Celtic: It's good to see that you are in the minority. If it was the other way, I would be concerned that our fellow human beings were getting cold hearted. Having served during WW2 I saw much of inhuman nature that I never would have expected. We need memorials such as these to remind present day citizens of how low humans can be. The Nazis were mostly inhuman to human beings. We should never allow things like that to happen again. You are entitled to your opinions, but I wish to disagree with them.

Whether we agree or not, the important thing is that we debate this like adults, and not like squabbling children, which many of us, myself included, are prone to do on here. I'm not going to argue with you. How could I? You've seen more in your life than I am ever likely to. I still disagree with you, but I understand when it I'm fighting a losing battle.

[celtic 302]

Oh how you must struggle to put up with all the 'people up here' having so much distain for 'them and their likes with their own opinions'. Can you please explain to me your reasoning for why people are so cold hearted by visiting such places, on second thought best not, I wouldn't understand it anyway would I.:roll: I said people go to pay their respects for the dead, not to go and feel sympathy. So by your logic then the likes of poppy day and visiting Normandy and such like is just for cold hearted people who need a day to feel sympathy? Hmm nice logic, I think it is you who are being patronising sir. Oh hold on a sec...........that's it rumble over.

Oh for christ sake just read what I say once please. I have at no point said that by going there you are cold hearted. I have been saying that if what happened at Auschwitz doesn't affect you until you have been there, then you are cold hearted. I have no doubt that the people that go there aren't cold hearted. I also have no doubt that you would be able to understand it if you read all the words, and not just the ones you want to see.

And don't lump that crap logic on me. If my logic was ever that bad, I'd find myself a gun and some bullets, quick.

Now I'm off to watch Schindler's List and cry about the attrocities of the war. Give me a damn break moron. If you don't agree with me, just say so and then we can have an adult debate, rather than this stupid childishness. Grow up.

[celtic 302]

...distain...

And for christ sake get a spell checker.

[tisme]

And for christ sake you just accept that your opinion is not always right just because you say so!. The fact is, you said people who visited such places were cold hearted, if I have taken that out of context then so be it, but although I read it over an over again I still disagree. No point in debating a subject when we are so obviously opposed to each others reasoning. That is what adults do, agree to disagree and move on. I won't bother using spell checker people like yourself seem happy to do it for me.

[celtic 302]

I agree, we should just move on. Get a beer together. Become good friend. Perhaps move in together some day. Too far? Oops. My mistake.

But just one last time, I need to say, I did not say going there makes you cold hearted. I said that if it takes going there to make you feel grief then you are cold hearted. For example, I'll assume you haven't been to Ground Zero (even if you have, play along). Even though you haven't been there, you will still feel grief and sadness for what happened there. However, if you did not, and you had to go there to feel grief and sadness, then you are cold hearted. Anyway, we seem to have gone on for a while on one little bit of what I've said, and as you said, we shall agree to disagree and move on.

By the way, yellow carpets or green for our house?

[tisme]

By the way, yellow carpets or green for our house?

I'd have to choose lino, with all the crap you speak it'll be easier to keep clean. Lot's of love x;)

[Valerie Campbell]

Tilter is right. The Allies knew the camps existed but didn't do anything until they felt they were in a position to do so. From research, I've found that the ordinary German soldiers genuinely didn't know they were concentration/extermination camps. They thought they were work camps for men and women who had done something against the state. The ones higher up the chain of command claimed they didn't know either, but they must have known. It's been interesting reading all the views.

[TBH]

It is hard for people to comprehend the atrocities commited in these camps or the sheer numbers that died whilst imprisoned there.
Auschwitz-Birkenau should stay as it is; a plaque in remembrance of the estimated 1.5M that died there doesn't quite cut it.


"Memory of the Camps" includes scenes from Dachau, Buchenwald, Belsen and other Nazi concentration camps whose names are not as well known. Some of the horrors documented took place literally moments before the Allied troops arrived, as the Germans hurried to cover the evidence of what they had done.The documentary contains some very disturbing scenes as you would expect:


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/camp/

[trix]

I'd have to choose lino, with all the crap you speak it'll be easier to keep clean. Lot's of love x;)


brilliant [lol][lol]

[Melancholy Man]

Let nature reclaim Auschwitz. The bonemeal buried below will only spur on the process.

Classy. One and a half million, there and in the satellite camps, reduced to jokes about fertilizer.


Modernise the message. Show the flattened homes of Gaza...the bodies of bombed children and the enormous suffering which the BBC is ever so impartial about.

Is there any reason that a discussion about the mass-killings of Jews has segued onto Israel?

[percy toboggan]

Classy. One and a half million, there and in the satellite camps, reduced to jokes about fertilizer.



Is there any reason that a discussion about the mass-killings of Jews has segued onto Israel?

I wasn't joking...just stating the truth. I saw a programme a few years ago which showed accelrated and lush growth around concentration camp sites which eclipsed the vegetation in nearby areas. Your inference mentioned a humorous vein - not mine. There is nothing funny about mass graves and industrial scale slaughter.

Gaza is more relevant in the modern world. The fact that descendants of the death camp victims now dispense random killing on a fairly regular basis is at best ironic....at worst shows they've learned nothing except meet force with force but triple the strength and then triple it again.

The philosophy of the middle east...where Israelis fit in well. Cut my finger and I'll have yer arm off!

[Melancholy Man]

I wasn't joking...just stating the truth. I saw a programme a few years ago which showed accelrated and lush growth around concentration camp sites which eclipsed the vegetation in nearby areas.It was as funny as the 'joke' in America that if they'd known how much trouble the slaves' descendent were to cause, they'd have picked the cotton themselves.


Gaza is more relevant in the modern world.But not in a thread about genocide. Darfur would have been more relevant here, where the total dead on both sides in the Arab/Israeli conflict in six decades represents a quiet season.


The fact that descendants of the death camp victims now dispense random killing on a fairly regular basis is at best ironicDuring Operation Cast Lead, in the region of one thousand people died. This was an overwhelmingly military objective which, as with all military actions, has its share of criminally minded commanders (not just on the Hamas side) and of civilian deaths.

The Babi Yar pogrom, alone, killed more Jews as Jews in a few days than Israeli actions have killed combatants and civilians alike over six decades. The Tykocin or Jedwabne or Wasosz or Kielce pogroms killed more Jews as Jews in a few hours/days than Israeli actions have killed civilians as civilians over six decades.


....at worst shows they've learned nothing except meet force with force but triple the strength and then triple it again.'They' have learnt that putting their trust in Europe or Muslim countries is a stunningly bad idea. Seventy years ago most Jews felt it better to remain in Europe, let alone go to America, and Zionist Jews were in a minority. Something happened which changed the demographics dramatically; just as something happened in Muslim countries which resulted in a mass departure of their Jewish populations.

[percy toboggan]

It was as funny as the 'joke' in America that if they'd known how much trouble the slaves' descendent were to cause, they'd have picked the cotton themselves.

But not in a thread about genocide. Darfur would have been more relevant here, where the total dead on both sides in the Arab/Israeli conflict in six decades represents a quiet season.

During Operation Cast Lead, in the region of one thousand people died. This was an overwhelmingly military objective which, as with all military actions, has its share of criminally minded commanders (not just on the Hamas side) and of civilian deaths.

The Babi Yar pogrom, alone, killed more Jews as Jews in a few days than Israeli actions have killed combatants and civilians alike over six decades. The Tykocin or Jedwabne or Wasosz or Kielce pogroms killed more Jews as Jews in a few hours/days than Israeli actions have killed civilians as civilians over six decades.

'They' have learnt that putting their trust in Europe or Muslim countries is a stunningly bad idea. Seventy years ago most Jews felt it better to remain in Europe, let alone go to America, and Zionist Jews were in a minority. Something happened which changed the demographics dramatically; just as something happened in Muslim countries which resulted in a mass departure of their Jewish populations.

I've just noticed your avatar - you obviously have a painful agenda and something to complain about. Your co-religionists have been persecuted for years by almost every Dick and Ali. One wonders why but any conclusion escapes me. I do recall one hasidic (?) trying to swindle us out of a little terraced house for a ridiculously low price c. 1975. Still, I have no axe to grind *with Jews...and little interest in your agenda so on this one I'll say si'thee.

* save to say slavish devotees to any God are quite probably deluding themselves. I hope not because as a fairly 'good bloke' I'd hope to enter any celestial Kingdom post death...I just think it's all rather unlikely. Don't you?

[oldmarine]

Should definitely by kept as a memorial to the millions who died and a reminder of just how low human kind can sink, even within living memory.

A school mate of mine who served as an MP at the Nurenberg trials told me about what he saw at Auschwitz and it was not good. He also updated me with what he saw at the Nurenberg trials and that was likewise a sad experience. Sure hope that experience is not repeated. I agree with LIZZ on this one.

[The Pepsi Challenge]

It's been a week now since I visited Auschwitz-Birkenau. I wrote a piece on my experience there, my family's involvement in the Second World War, and, a little bit about those who have called for the camp(s)' dismantling, for The Scotsman newspaper. For those interested in the subject and who don't mind reading about it, I will send an online link to the piece, when it's published, here. Thanks.

[trix]

It's been a week now since I visited Auschwitz-Birkenau. I wrote a piece on my experience there, my family's involvement in the Second World War, and, a little bit about those who have called for the camp(s)' dismantling, for The Scotsman newspaper. For those interested in the subject and who don't mind reading about it, I will send an online link to the piece, when it's published, here. Thanks.

hey pepsi..i wid lek til read aboot yer experience visitin Auschwitz, i look forward til'ed....

ye should hev a wee look for 'at book i mentioned earlier...5 chimneys. truely harrowing book :~(

[Sporran]

Pepsi, I look forward to reading your article when it's published, and will be keeping an eye open for your link to it. :)

[Tighsonas4]

brilliant [lol][lol]
thought any mention of yhe hydro would take you out of the woodwork and i see you hev mr farmer til help e tony

[The Pepsi Challenge]

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/features/The-Scots-who-fell-for.5211274.jp

If anyone is interested, I'll post my un-edited, fuller account in a couple days time.

[porshiepoo]

I completely understand why many people think it should be kept as a memorial, however, personally I say it should be used (if possible) as something that brings some good rather than a constant reminder of the horrors of the world.

Concentration camps were barbaric, horrific, sad, murderous places and I do not see what good comes from leaving such places as trophies to Hitler et al.
Surely it would be better to turn them into places that show mankind's more positive traits? A more positive memorial to those who suffered and died there? And what better way to give a one fingured salute to the murderous ba*****s than to turn their torture and murder chambers into a place of serenity, of calm and tranquility?
We do not need the existance of Concentration camps in their present forms to remind of the horrors innocent people suffered there, those memories and that history will always be there to serve as a reminder of what we are capable of.

I have to admit to a fascination with Auschwitz that I do not understand. I would love to visit the place but I will admit that it's from a purely morbid fascination of a place I have read and heard so much about.

[porshiepoo]

Pepsi, I'd certainly be most interested in reading that article and indeed hearing of your experiences and emotions during your visit to Auschwitz.

Just curious, how does a visitation work? Do you just turn up? Have to book it?

[Mystical Potato Head]

My brother visited Auschwitz and couldnt believe how eerilee quite it was,also there was absolutely no wildlife about the place.

[horseman]

My opionion is that the filthy rotten place should stay forever --as a monument to the millions of innocents who perished in misery an agony at the behest of egomanical leaders of pap fed populations (millions of them) who believed,accepted,acquiesed,went along with an just kept quiet about ghastly goings on. There may be a lesson out there today for our modern world.

[The Pepsi Challenge]

The following is the first draft about my visit to Auschwitz. It's much, much longer than the edited version which made it to publication, but I hope those reading it will enjoy it, if they can. Thanks...

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It is late 1946. The location: Glasgow Central Station. Beatrice MacDonald, a young nurse from Inverness, is excitedly awaiting the arrival of her husband, Sergeant Danny MacDonald. Danny, a Reconnaissance Corp in the British Army, is on his way home having served his country for the entire duration of the Second World War. The adoring couple have been married just six months, and the romantic image of the returning war hero stepping off the train and into the arms of his loving wife is a scenario Beatrice has repeated several times in her mind since leaving her hometown that morning. Others, too, have turned up to Central Station to greet their dearly missed brothers, sons, husbands and fathers; yet amidst the throng, Beatrice will find no sign of her beloved Danny.

Official word of my great uncle Danny’s death didn’t reach my great aunt Beatrice (she was affectionately known as “Beattie” to my family) until January 7th, 1947, and, incidentally, almost two years exactly since the liberation of Auschwitz. Sadly, it was left to one of Danny’s colleagues - who just so happened to spot Beattie at the train station that fateful day - to deliver her the awful news first. Granted, the war was officially over, but Danny, like many other Scottish soldiers, remained in Europe following the post-war clean up. A kind-hearted man, Danny agreed to swap shifts with a fellow solider, but died instantly when the vehicle he was driving exploded after hitting a mine left behind by fleeing Nazis, a sick parting shot, as it were, to the victorious Allies.

Later in life, Beattie made the long trip to visit Danny’s grave at the Backlingen War Cemetery in Germany. North of Hannover, the site was chosen for its position overlooking Luneburg Heath, where Field-Marshal Montgomery accepted the German surrender from Admiral Doenitz on May 4th, 1945. And while Beattie never did remarry (“it wasn’t for the lack of offers,” she would joke in her twilight years), she always kept a large, framed photograph of Danny by her bedside and in the living room up until her mid-80s before passing away in October 1993. When she died, my dad (whom, incidentally, is named after Danny) handed me down Danny’s war medals, photographs and subsequent death letter. Danny’s strong, bold, photographic image intrigued me tremendously. Dressed in his army uniform, he looked a little like Clark Gable: a strikingly handsome man who could just as easily have been a Hollywood actor as a highland soldier. This fascination with a relative I strongly admired, yet never knew, fuelled my thirst for knowledge on the Second World War. I had learned of the Nazis, Auschwitz, and Hitler’s “Final Solution” in school and often wondered, despite my pre-pubescent naivety, if Danny had aided in the liberation of the Jews from Auschwitz (liberated, in actual fact, by the Red Army).

Growing up in the small, isolated county of Caithness in the 1980s, the area had a strong, visual connection with the war. The town of Wick had been bombed; I used to play in the old, disused radar stations at Dunnet Head; you could see burnt-out, destroyed war boats sticking eerily out of the water around Scapa Flow in Orkney; even the Caithness hamlet of Watten was home to Camp 165, where, between 1943 and 1948, lay the location of Britain’s most secretive camp, and where a number of the most notorious members of Hitler’s Third Reich (some of whom had been at Auschwitz) could be held securely, interrogated, and, if possible, de-Nazified.

Years passed, and I felt a strong, increasing desire to get closer to the things I felt most interested in; places my great uncle Danny may have visited during the war. But where? Of course, there was Backlingen, where Danny was buried. I could visit Normandy, where the tide of the war turned on its beaches during D-Day. There was also Berlin, where the Reich collapsed, too, to ponder. However, my attention always came back to one particular place - Auschwitz: the greatest symbol of horror and human suffering: the epitome of evil.

But what was inspiring me to want to visit such a place? The poems of Rubaiyar Of Omar Khayyam for one. They had taught me that every minute of life is precious. Therefore, visiting Auschwitz, I supposed, would surely make me appreciate just how fragile, how fleeting life can be; make me appreciate my own life, which unlike those in Auschwitz, I took for granted.

What ultimately inspired me, though, was the line Ben Kinglsey (who portrayed Itzhak Stern, the Jewish accountant to German industrialist, Oskar Schindler, whom saved thousands of Jews’ lives during the war, in the Hollywood movie, Schindler’s List) delivers to Liam Neeson (portraying Schindler) just before Schindler flees the fast-approaching Russians: “He who saves a single soul saves the world.” I thought: my great uncle Danny spent his short life saving the lives of others, and thus, indirectly, my own. It was then I knew I would one day visit Auschwitz - but when? As fate would have it, my partner, Shona, surprised me a short time ago with the announcement of a holiday in Poland. When I looked up where we would be staying on a map - Cracow - I happened to notice Auschwitz lay a mere 37 miles away from the city. I couldn’t believe how close it was. I was finally going to see it with my own eyes. First, though, a little history…

Auschwitz, for those who don’t know, was the largest camp established by the Nazis - a complex of camps that included a concentration, extermination, and forced-labour camp - and it is estimated that a minimum 1.3 million people (Jews, Poles, Gypsies, and just about anyone who opposed the Nazis or looked at them the wrong way) were deported to Auschwitz between 1940 and 1945; of these, at least 1.1 million were murdered. The others (mainly) died due to starvation and disease.

Arriving on a warm Thursday morning, the first thing I notice upon entering the Auschwitz compound are the words “Arbeit Macht Frei” above the main entrance gate (to Hell): the infamous, sick, cynical and ironic phrase that translates as “Work Makes You Free.” To gaze upon it chills you to the bone. The second thing I notice is, dare I say it, how quaint everything seems. It’s a bright, spring day: flowers are blooming; visiting school groups smile quietly at one another; the hum of traffic heard just beyond the tall, former high-voltage gates is a distant purr; while birds, resting in the nearby trees, chirp contentedly. It’s almost idyllic. Even visitors posing for photographs do so with a smile on their face.

The tour lasts about four hours, but it rushes by in a flash of numb bewilderment. As the tour group is led from one barrack to the next, I, like the others in my group, are invited to gaze upon the tonnes of women’s hair which was brutally shorn to be used to make German sub-mariners’ socks, mattresses and Nazi uniforms; the thousands of children’s shoes; the hundreds of empty suitcases, whole families’ names splashed across the front in white paint. I hear about those forced to eat their own faeces, those who had to dig their own graves, am even led to an urn carrying the ashes of hundreds of thousands of exterminated Jews. But it gets worse.

The words of a Holocaust survivor who said barking dogs, stripped clothing and the sound of the German language continued to haunt her following her liberation resonates like a thunderous echo. I even clap eyes on a photograph of a Jewish prisoner who bore two identifying tattoos on his left arm - he’d been sent to Auschwitz twice! Read that back again. Twice. Then there’s the torture chambers, the standing cells, the hanging line, a shooting ’wall of death’. Everywhere you turn, everywhere you tread, lives have been routinely killed, arbiterally and unjustly extinguished. By the time we enter the first gas chamber, I feel like am in some perverse dream. The truly weird thing, though, is, barely anyone says a word, let alone asks any questions of the tour guide. No-one appears to cry, either. We can’t; we’re all overwhelmed. And we haven’t even been to Auschwitz II-Birkenau yet.

A mere two miles away, our tour guide explains just how many square kilometres Birkenau is as we approach the back entrance to the camp where two, demolished crematoria remain. But it doesn’t matter whether you understand the metrics of it or not - Birkenau is gigantic. It’s hard to fathom how families living in nearby farmhouses can do so as neighbours of one of history’s greatest crimes. But Poland is still a poor country, and people will take up affordable housing wherever the location. Wherever the location. That said, the indifferent looks on their faces as we pass by them on their porches doesn’t fail to unnerve me...

[The Pepsi Challenge]

... (continued)


Again, it’s difficult to truly envision the sights, sounds, smells, humiliation, degradation and sheer terror of what once was at Birkenau. A deep, self-loathing - for not feeling as upset as I probably should - creeps up on me like a cold, winter morning, and as the tour group stride on ahead, I take time out to sit by a small pond (which rests beside one of the demolished crematoria) where the ashes of hundreds of thousands of those murdered by the Nazis were callously dumped. It’s here, for me, it all truly begins to hit home.

Later, I venture into what was once the women’s living quarters. You wouldn’t expect animals to stay in there, yet even in the latrines - where, bizarrely, German words translated as saying “stay calm” adorn the walls - there is a deep sense of twisted evil and foreboding.

I end the tour by taking some photographs of the infamous unloading ramps (where SS officers declared who was fit for work, and who would be immediately sent to their deaths) before taking a final walk round the equally infamous watchtower to view an endless sea of barracks that disappear beyond the horizon. Birkenau is that big. Then it’s over. Our driver - just like everyone else on the tour - taps his watch indicating that he wants to leave, for it seems no-one likes to stick around here too long. And who can blame them?

Heading back into the bohemian and bourgeois confines of Cracow city centre, I turn my thoughts to those who have recently brought into question the desire to dismantle Auschwitz-Birkenau. Just like Holocaust deniers, such people do actually exist. However, with plans afoot for a new exhibition centre in Birkenau, and, a new museum at Oskar Schindler’s factory in Cracow (Schindler was a member of the Nazi party who saved many Jewish lives by having them work at his factory), thankfully, it doesn’t look likely.


However, let’s be clear about one thing: visiting Auschwitz-Birkenau will disturb you deeply. You will hear accounts of life inside the camps that will haunt and unnerve you, probably forever. And yet, I urge everyone to visit them, if they can. The reason I believe these camps should remain is so they should upset you; to make you understand not only what humans can do to each other, but what they can withstand, as well; to teach us that we should replace hatred with love, intolerance with inclusiveness and acceptance. My great uncle Danny may never have suffered the same kind of hunger, torture and humiliation the prisoners of Auschwitz did; yet, like them, every day, he, too, must have experienced the same fear that any day, any hour, any second, his life could come to an abrupt, brutal end.

These days, Danny’s photograph no longer sits in a box under my bed. Like my great aunt before me, his image takes pride of place in my living room, as a reminder of war, love, loss and forgiveness. Danny’s great, great nephews don’t know much about him - or the war - yet, either, but when they come to visit me next, they will; for had it not been for soldiers like Danny, my nephews - like me and you - might not be reading these words today. Think about that.

[The Pepsi Challenge]

Pepsi, I'd certainly be most interested in reading that article and indeed hearing of your experiences and emotions during your visit to Auschwitz.

Just curious, how does a visitation work? Do you just turn up? Have to book it?


My partner and I booked a tour to Auschwtiz-Birkenau through Mama's Doubles, the ho(s)tel we stayed with during our visit to Cracow.

www.mamashostel.com.pl/

We arrived on a Monday and arranged to visit Auschwitz on the Thursday. Why? Well, there were lots of other, more enjoyable things to do first, and we figured we'd leave the really, really heavy stuff to later in the week. We went to see the salt mines (an astounding feat of humble craftmanship hundreds of meters below the ground), had a whale of a time with our Crazy Guide, who took us round the former communist city of Nowa Huta in a Trabant car no less, and visited a bona fide commie milk bar, apartment, factory, as well as getting loaded on vodka and pickled gerkins! We also took the Schindler's List Tour (visiting the Jewish Quarter, Ghetto, and Plaszow concerntration camp), spent a lot of time in the Quarter, as well as the town's many shisha bars. But that's another story.

As for Auschwitz, well... the journey really depends on when you believe it starts. For me, it was years ago, but it was as soon as I woke up the morning I was due to head out there that the real journey, if you can call it that, began.

We got picked up at 9.30am (from our accommodation) and the drive took about 40 minutes to get to Auschwitz. We travelled in a large people carrier (enough room for 12 people) and we watched a documentary film - shot by the Red Army who liberated Auschwitz - on a DVD on the backs of the headrests. By 5.30pm we were back in Cracow.

I could elaborate more, but all I would say is read the piece, and, if you feel it is right for you, to make a trip out there at some point. It took two-and-a-quarter hours to fly to Cracow from Edinburgh. The city itself is stunning. Castles, cathedrals, culture, chic, crazy, cool, class... and cheap, as in inexpensive. Memorable to say the least.

[Sporran]

Brilliantly written piece, Pepsi, which made for interesting, poignant reading! I have long been of the opinion that the Nazi concentration camps should remain as a grim reminder, and your article has further enforced that opinion. Thanks for sharing it with us!

[porshiepoo]

Pepsi that was an amazing piece to read.

I watched the link to the video re the concentration camps and I have to say that although I've watched alot on these camps, that was the most graffic.
I couldn't help but wonder what was going through the minds of those SS that were made to bury the bodies of those they'd helped to murder.
Did they have any sorrow or regret as they were clearing the dead? I'll guess we'll never know.
There was one scene where the SS were lined up near the pit of bodies they'd just filled and I couldn't help but feel it would have been so easy to have shot them there and then. Guess that makes me as bad as them though.

I'd love to visit Auschwitz but I don't think I'd cope with it, as morbid as my fascination is I don't think I'd cope with it.

That video has just really confirmed my belief that something needs to be done with the places.
Are we letting their souls rest if we're constantly traipsing over a mass burial ground? (I do understand the need to visit though).
IMO a more fitting memorial would be to encourage something to grow from the earth that is their grave.
Someone mentioned the bodies being fertiliser and although I think there could be better analogies, that poster had a point.
Wouldn't it bring more comfort to families such as Pepsi's to see growth there? Flowers? Statues as memorials where the graves are? Maybe plaques to signal where the more atrocious acts were committed such as the ovens, the chambers etc?

To remove the remains of Auschwitz and others isn't to say that we are forgetting or even want to forget, that will never happen.
But to bring peace, tranquility and new growth to these places is, in my mind, the perfect memorial to all those who suffered and died there.

Having said all that, I have no tie to these places (that I'm aware of) so cannot claim to understand how those families feel.

[crayola]

My opionion is that the filthy rotten place should stay forever --as a monument to the millions of innocents who perished in misery an agony at the behest of egomanical leaders of pap fed populations (millions of them) who believed,accepted,acquiesed,went along with an just kept quiet about ghastly goings on. There may be a lesson out there today for our modern world.I don't normally post on threads like this one but for once I'd like to state my total agreement with you horseman.

[dietcokegirl]

What an amazing article.
My OH and some workmates visited Auschwitz last year when they were over working near Cracow. When i asked him how he got on after his visit he said that it was a great experiance, but he felt numb for ages after.

[Gene Hunt]

Brilliant posts.

I visited the place in the early 1990 as a student. I am not "glad" I went but I felt it was something I had to see, my daughters want to go but my wife will take them. I will not set foot in the place again, I never want to feel the way I did while there and for a good while after I left it. I could not associate the perpetrators of what happened there as being of the same species as me.

If you have never been and wonder what it was like, years later I was reading a book (I think it was "The Ancient Mariner") and read this verse which summed up for me what it felt like to be there.

Like one that on a lonesome road,
Doth walk in fear and dread,
And having once turned round,
Walks on and never turns their head,
For close behind they surely know,
A frightful fiend doth tread.

Walking there ?? .. Its like the Devil is right behind you.

[The Pepsi Challenge]

Many thanks for the kind words everyone, I thoroughly appreciate it. Nice to get some positive feedback on one of my pieces for a change, too :)

Granted, the thought of visiting Auschwitz is probably not on everyone's Top 10 Holiday Destinations, but I assure you visiting the place, and, of course, Cracow, is well worth doing.

Cheers,

B*