View Full Version : What can be done.
In the light of the various reports in the media recently about eleven year old heroin addicts, I find myself asking again what can be done to address this ever-escalating problem and I come back to the same answer.We must legalise everything.
The father of Leah Betts is always quoted when this subject is discussed.He has gone on record as saying that we have lost the war against drugs and that all drugs should be legalised. David Hingston who was Procurator Fiscal for Wick and Dingwall recently went on TV to state that we are losing the war and that all drugs should be legalised. Vatious ranking police officers have stated the same thing to me and some have publicly stated that we are losing the war against drugs and legalisation is the only possible route. I know countless aging drug users who have been saying the same thing for years and were laughed at and scorned for their opinions which are based on first hand knowledge of the subject.
Recently there have been several arrests in Wick where sellable quantities of heroin and amphetamines have been seized. I have been told by fairly relable sources that there are a fair number of young people in Wick with a habit and that Thurso is going the same way. I personally have seen young people hanging arround locally who were obviously on heroin. The signs are quite easy to see if you know what to look for. Statistics state that for every thousand people in Britain, there are six to seven people with a serious drug problem.This woul indicate about seventy people in Wick and the same in Thurso will develop a serious dependancy on Class A drugs. I have been told that that the number is liable to be greater now locally.
Increased sentencing will not stop the traffic.Death sentencing and thirty year sentences in jail has not stopped the business in Thailland for example.
Taking away the cash from the dealers won't stop it.The big earners are in Russia and Bogota and other places that are well away from their market and they don't care if a thousand small fry are put away every week to clog up our jails.
We can't control the production of drugs and we cannot control the selling until we legalise everything.Holland has the most relaxed attitude towards drug taking and they have two people per thousand with serious problems.We give our addicts methadon which is just another drug which is more addictive and harder to give up than heroin.Where is the logic in that.
Legalise it all now and honestly educate our children with facts.Take control of the distribution and take the business out of the hands of international crooks.That it can be taxed should not even enter the debate.
I once heard Donald Dewar and Hessletine(sp) state in a TV debate that if Joe Public wanted to use a substance that they knew to be harmful then they should have the right to use it and no-one should be allowed to stop them. They were discussing tobacco!!!!:confused:
connieb19
05-Feb-06, 18:21
I can't see how legalising it would have stopped this 11 year old taking it????
Legalising eveything could well prevent other children from arriving at this state.Nothing that has been done stopped this particular child from falling victim.Let not the emotion dictate the response.Delve deeper,nothing up to date has worked and the only thing not tried is legalisation.I am not in favour of legalisation at all but it seems to be the only alternative to prohibition which is not working ,never has worked and never will work.
The Enigma
05-Feb-06, 19:53
I would say that I agree with legalising drugs, and no, I don't take drugs myself and wouldn't even if they were legalised.
Drug barons would be no more, crime (including murders) would be considerably down and the drugs themselves would come from known sources and therfore be "safer" (I could be wrong, but isn't the stuff that drugs can come mixed with sometimes be just as harmful as the drugs themslves?).
I know people always say that if something is legalised then a lot more people will start doing it, but is that really the case? Maybe a few more would try it, but at least they are making up their own minds to do it, knowing the risks. In my opinon thats better than innocent people getting mugged, possibly murdered by someone desperate to pay their dealer - they dont have a choice in the matter!
If things were working the way they are, then fine, leave things as they are, but they're not...
rich62_uk
05-Feb-06, 20:03
I agree with Connie I don't see how this would of helped this child, I am shy of legalizing all Drugs as I see this as a last ditch effort, and would like to see other things tried first.
Two ideas to help stem the drug culture spring to mind.
One being making detox more freely available to drug users with better support rather than simply use of methadone, poor counseling facility's and being left in the same environment which to me is doomed to fail. In Norwich there is only one bed available in the local psychiatric hospital for detoxification from alcohol and none for drug abuse ( this was up until two years ago to my knowledge).
Two, because of the underground nature of the supply of marijuana it brings young people into contact and within the grasp of the unsavory element that can supply harder and harder drugs.
Therefore why not take a leaf out of the Dutch book and develop hashish bars and cafés to try and remove the underground drugs culture as it is at the moment, I see this as possibly making it less likely that young people will be in contact with the kind of groups that then develop into class A drug users and suppliers.
I don't see either of these being a magical or instant solution however i struggle to see how making crack cocaine freely available being an answer either.
Rich...........
Good post but crack cocaine is readily available now in most places worldwide.
rich62_uk
05-Feb-06, 21:12
Good post but crack cocaine is readily available now in most places worldwide.
But not in your local Boots. Rich........
Legalisation stands no chance of having any effect on the present situation unless all drugs are legalised.ie put on the same standing as the worst of all drugs,alcohol.
I agree with Connie I don't see how this would of helped this child, I am shy of legalizing all Drugs as I see this as a last ditch effort, and would like to see other things tried first.
Two ideas to help stem the drug culture spring to mind.
One being making detox more freely available to drug users with better support rather than simply use of methadone, poor counseling facility's and being left in the same environment which to me is doomed to fail. In Norwich there is only one bed available in the local psychiatric hospital for detoxification from alcohol and none for drug abuse ( this was up until two years ago to my knowledge).
Two, because of the underground nature of the supply of marijuana it brings young people into contact and within the grasp of the unsavory element that can supply harder and harder drugs.
Therefore why not take a leaf out of the Dutch book and develop hashish bars and cafés to try and remove the underground drugs culture as it is at the moment, I see this as possibly making it less likely that young people will be in contact with the kind of groups that then develop into class A drug users and suppliers.
I don't see either of these being a magical or instant solution however i struggle to see how making crack cocaine freely available being an answer either.
Rich...........
Rich I am with you on this subject, the legalisation of cannabis in the Netherlands did / does not work. I am anti illeagal drug taking in any form, if one has to resort to living their day by shooting up in some dirty toilet, then IMHO I think they are are weak and sad.
Gleber you are a far more articulate person than I, so I will await your next prophecy with baited breath as I am sure you are in the pro camp for the legalising of drugs
I am not sure why we are surprised by the fact that there is an 11 year old who is addicted to heroin. We have 9 year olds who smoke we have 10 year olds who drink alcohol why would be be surprised when we have youngsters taking drugs.
Im with Gleber2 on this i think legalisation is possibly the only way to take control back of the drugs situation. Policing it is not working and there is not enough rehabilitation facilities and the trust isnt there to encourage people to ask for help.
Rich I am with you on this subject, the legalisation of cannabis in the Netherlands did / does not work.
Cannabis has never been legalised in the Netherlands.
I can't see how legalising it would have stopped this 11 year old taking it????
Take a look at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4647018.stm for a bit of history on the subject.
If alcohol was illegal do you think a person running an illegal still would be bothered about selling it to someone who was under age? A pub landlord would be hung drawn and quartered if he sold alcohol to an 11 year old, what has a drug pusher got to lose?
Cannabis has never been legalised in the Netherlands.
I beg to differ Fred, you have it wrong again
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3559681a12,00.html
Chobbersjnr
06-Feb-06, 14:09
Cannabis has never been legalised in Holland.It is still on the statute book. They decided to turn a blind eye and more or less decriminalised it but reserve the right to re-apply the law when they want to.
How do you judge whether it has worked or not? They have a much lower crime rate,the lowest number of people with serious drug problems in Europe and the biggest problem they have if the number of foreigners who flock there to enfoy a less paranoid life style.The main problem they have with young people is alcohol abuse.
If your are addressing me, Owld Grumpy one, as Gleber,there is no profit in being a prophet on this forum. Heroin addiction is an illness.Would you call a cancer victim weak and sad? I too,can't stand the whole chemical drug business but I am equally disgusted by alcohol and tobacco. Drugs in total kill about three hundred and fifty people in Britain per year,alcohol alone kills over twenty thousand per year without bringing tobacco into the frame.
I strongly object to the Nanny State telling us what we can and cannot put into our own bodies.What was the first drug that the people of Europe were deliberately addicted to?It was tea!!!!Are you to be considered sad and weak when you have your next cuppa.
Eek.My son uses the same computer as I and I did not realise that it was he who was logged in.Sorry!!!!
I beg to differ Fred, you have it wrong again
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3559681a12,00.html
Now show me a reference to something that says cannabis has been legalised in the Netherlands.
While you're looking you might as well take a look at the Dutch law regarding cannabis:
http://www.cannabis-med.org/dutch/Regulations/Opium_Act.pdf
rich62_uk
06-Feb-06, 21:03
Now show me a reference to something that says cannabis has been legalised in the Netherlands.
While you're looking you might as well take a look at the Dutch law regarding cannabis:
http://www.cannabis-med.org/dutch/Regulations/Opium_Act.pdf
The question of weather the drug is legalized or de-criminalized is neither here nor there, both actions have a similar effect, in that it means that the drug is taken out of the hands of the criminal fraternity to a greater extent by making its supply far less valuable.
As to addiction being a weakness, of course it is. I have an addiction to tobacco, which i might say i am not proud of however find very difficult to control therefore it is a weakness. I must agree that when the addition has taken hold it becomes an illness, however i guess all of us see the lengths to which you will go to fulfill that addiction as the problem, i know i wouldn't batter a grandmother to death for a cigarette. I really don't see the idea of " shooting up with dirty water in a toilet " as one i relish therefore see this habit as one far more difficult to accept. The fact that alcohol and tobacco are more acceptable addictions in most peoples books is because of the social standing of their use. Would we all like to see the use of class A drugs with their associated problems become socially acceptable.
I don't think i would, how about the rest of you????
Rich......
No I wouldn't like to see people inject in public but we won't be seeing people smoke very much after March and I would like,more than anything, to see alcohol removed from our reality,socially or otherwise.Alcohol is extremely damaging to the health whether you are addicted or not.Heroin,although I despise the culture that it thrives in,is not,in itself, harmful beyond the addictiveness.If you can afford to use it and always have a pure supply you can live as long and as healthy as any nonuser.Science has stated that white sugar is more harmful than pure heroin.
Legalising eveything could well prevent other children from arriving at this state.Nothing that has been done stopped this particular child from falling victim.Let not the emotion dictate the response.Delve deeper,nothing up to date has worked and the only thing not tried is legalisation.I am not in favour of legalisation at all but it seems to be the only alternative to prohibition which is not working ,never has worked and never will work.
the only problem is if we legalise it and find it makes things worse - it will be harder to go back to making it illegal.
Legalisation can't possibly make things worse than they are now.It will make the reality more obvious when it is no longer hidden and therefore much easier to control.
The policing of drugs in caithness is a joke, look at the amount of busts that has happened and amount of drugs they have found, how often do these people then get sentenced to jail, not many and if they are its not for long at all, normally just ends up with a fine and a report thats it.
There is a steady increase of herion in caithness more and more people are using it now which i think is extrodinary. Remember the guy who died about a year or 2 ago from it, you would have thought something like that would affect a small community like caithness and rattle into silly peoples heads its just not worth it.
When Prohibition was introduce in America all it succeeding in doing was to allow the Criminal Gangs to draw people who would never normally have gone anywhere near them into their sphere of influence.
The same Criminals also had a ready supply of drugs, gambling joints and "girls".
Add to that the fact that it also gave the Criminals access to Politicians, who would also normally have never got involved with them, and you end up with 1930s America.
Most of the drugs which are now illegal were legally available just over a hundred years ago. The total illegality of Cannabis has only been in force for about forty years.
And I suspect that was only because those "nasty Afro-Caribbeans were teaching those nice young white people their immoral ways".
Of course, they would never admit that, they would rather have people believe the reason was about drug and sex orgies and for the sake of preventing addiction.
Just as a matter of interest, has anybody heard of somebody having severe withdrawal symptoms from a lack of Cannabis?
The reason I ask is because I have never heard of anybody having to be weaned off it or having to be described a substitute.
Legalising Drugs, if properly done, would at least take the supply out of the hands of the Drug Dealers.
It would also lead to some kind of "Quality Control" so there isn't the problem of a "Bad Batch".
The problem will not go away just because it has been decided to attach an "Illegal" tag to it.
You can seize as many shipments as you want but there will always be others that get through and the same with sources of supply.
When did you last hear of Turf Wars between "Ciggy Gangs" or "Booze Dealers"?
Well, at least not so far, but give the Politicians time to create the necessary supply problems.
What you say is true to an extent.Recently the police have targeted one of the suppliers of heroin and a fair quantity captured.There have also been some very large seizures of speed and ecstasy. What happen next is anybodies guess.The majority of people who have been jailed up here over the last few years have been done for growing cannabis.
The police are as lost as the rest of us. The general public,you included,must take personal responsibility for the situation and give the police the information they require before some-one else dies.We,in Caithness,are experiencing now what the rest of the country have been having for years and there is nothing that can be done is going to stop it.Educate our children honestly and we might give them a chance.Ignore the situation now as we all have done before and it will get a lot worse.WE HAVE A HEROIN PROBLEM NOW.
[QUOTE=JAWS]Just as a matter of interest, has anybody heard of somebody having severe withdrawal symptoms from a lack of Cannabis?
The reason I ask is because I have never heard of anybody having to be weaned off it or having to be described a substitute.
QUOTE]
No there is no withdrawel symptoms as such same as there isnt really a withdrawel from fags either, its all in the mind and its a case of changing your mindset about it.
What you say is true to an extent.Recently the police have targeted one of the suppliers of heroin and a fair quantity captured.There have also been some very large seizures of speed and ecstasy. What happen next is anybodies guess.The majority of people who have been jailed up here over the last few years have been done for growing cannabis.
The police are as lost as the rest of us. The general public,you included,must take personal responsibility for the situation and give the police the information they require before some-one else dies.We,in Caithness,are experiencing now what the rest of the country have been having for years and there is nothing that can be done is going to stop it.Educate our children honestly and we might give them a chance.Ignore the situation now as we all have done before and it will get a lot worse.WE HAVE A HEROIN PROBLEM NOW.
These two seizures that have happened he is getting away with as he has his young aquaintance taking full blame of it.
The police are seizing and putting these people to court then our so called justice system is saying "oh lets give them a second chance to prove themselves" its a joke
Ciggy wars? yes.Not violent but over prices on the blackmarket.
Are you aware of the politics behind the illegalisation of cannabis? That tale coupled with the history of tea and the Opium Wars with China makes for interesting reading. Are you aware of how much money was involved in the Hemp trade in the 19th century and before or indeed are you aware of hemp at all?I recently saw a letter in which the writer thanked the recipient for the new hemp cuttings he had sent him and ended up by saying that the flowering tops were particularly good. The writer was George Washington and the recipient Sir John Sinclair Bart.of Ulbster!!
I have never heard of anyone suffering withdrawal from real cannabis but the garbage that is on the market for the younger users is an unknown quantity because it contains very little,if any,real cannabis and can cause problems.
Camel dung,turpentine,pine resin,Strong tranquilisers like largactyl,and the lord kens what else is in it.If a sane government would look at the unadultrated facts about cannabis and hemp they would realise that a continued prohibition is insane.You might not believe it,but hemp could,quite litterally,supply 80% of all our needs and could also help to reverse the greenhouse effect.If anyone is interested enough to know why I make these claims,say the word and I will explain.
The police can only act within the law.The gentleman you are referring to is only one of many and,as far as I know,he was not caught with heroin.The other big one was and it was not a small quantity.What do you want the police to do? Send them all to prison?That won't stop the business and won't really bother those concerned.If you want something done,do it yourself.Look at the Mothers of Alness and their efforts.If it comes to push,start shoving as it is only the concerned parents of the county that are in a position to do anything about it.
Whitewater
07-Feb-06, 18:08
I've been reading through this thread with great interest, I havn't myself reached a conclussion as yet, but what Gleeber is saying makes sense. I will go away and do some thinking/research on it.
One of the things which is pushing me in one direction was on the news today. A solicitor was named for supplying drugs to a prison, not just to one client but enough to supply the needs of many of the inmates. It is coming to it when the people we look up to as being practitioners/keepers/models of the law are breaking it for their own gain. It must be a very lucrative market. I wonder how many other lawers/solicitors/wardens are in the same boat. Drugs are rife in prison, and to control it means immense power to the particular inmate who has the goods.
Legalisation would stop this, as well as all the other illegal practices which Gleeber has mentioned.
Whitewater
07-Feb-06, 18:10
Sorry, should have said "Gleeber2"
You should have said Gleber2.If Gleeber thought you were confusing me with him,his Freud tinted glasses would steam up and he would have a fit.
If you think that lawyers,policemen,prison officers and the rest are paragons of honesty and virtue then you are naive to an awful level.Lawyers, by virtue of their profession, are payed liars. Can you trust a liar to only lie when his job demands it.Get on to the other side of the fence and under the veneer and you quickly discover that there is no justice and never has been.Prison is a holiday camp to most inmates and is therefore no deterrent.
Oh dear, not even I'm brave enough to get Gleeber and Gleber2 mixed up. :grin:
Gleber, this will shock everybody but never mind, they will soon get over it!
I agree with you about legalising drugs and your comment about the content of illegally supplied Cannabis is an excellent reason why.
It's not too long ago that Glasgow was hit by a quantity of "bad" heroin. The attitude of "so what, they're only druggies" is no longer a sensible response because nowadays it could be anybody's young relative of friend's child.
The days when anybody could smugly sit back and think the problem was a long way from them and only happened to other people is long passed.
One of the things used to "Cut" drugs is scouring powder and often things far worse than that. The strength can vary greatly. How would you like to drive to the pub and have a pint of shandy only to find out when the nice helpful policeman told you the breathalyser shows it was a pint of whiskey.
At the moment nobody has any idea of the amount of drugs being brought into the Country and the extent of use.
The bold headlines of this success and that success seizing this value of Heroin or that weight of cannabis is just to make people think it is being controlled. That is just the tip of the iceberg, it's like fining a millionaire a tenner. It won't even be missed.
All that is happening at the moment is that the lives of youngsters id being put at risk so certain parts of Society can feel smugly self-righteous.
Allowing 24 hour drinking to help the 'binge drinking' situation, sounded crazy, but no increase in drinking related crimes has been observed. On the contrary, compared to last Janurarys numbers, there has been an 11% decrease in our city centres. Legalising all drugs to help the 'drugs' situation, sounds crazy, but.....
I have no alternative but agree with you.I know a bit more than most about what's going on and you are right.There is a ridiculous ammount of drugs coming into the county. The problem is here and now and the signs of it will become glaringly obvious in the very near future as the ammount of crack increases.A user of heroin can only use a certain ammount per day but a crack addict has no limit to consumption which leads to an increase in all sorts of petty crime to pay for escaling habits.We've already had deaths and overdoses in Caithness and it has been swept under the table.There have been articles in the local paper by policemen and convicted drug users saying the same thing and they got no response whatsoever.Blanket legalisation now and we might be able to keep a control over the situation locally or will it take the first batch of really bad heroin reaching the ever growing number of young Caithness children who are being targetd by a business that must always expand until we have politicaians brave enough to see the truth and act upon it.
Most countries with 24 hour drinking have less of a problem than we had before our extended hours.Legalising all drugs only seems crazy to those who don't know the facts of the matter.
You are right about the booze, but I have a serious problem getting my head around the 'legalise it all concept'.
I just cannot imagine being in Sutherlands chemist listening to the youth in front of me asking for: "a packet of 12 of your best E's, a bottle of MDMA and a box of nurofen please".
Mind you, its a cleaner scenario than the same youth going to gangs with guns in a back street. But, there are some drugs which simply cannot be legalised, for example: If all steroids were made legal body builders would rejoice, but so would spikers and date rapers.
I just don't know.
Nobody knows,Feeder,but everything else has been tried and failed.
Gleber, we're in agreement again. It's time to try a new approach. Illegal drugs are all to easy to get hold of now, and pretending differently is like trying to deny that night follows day.
The supply is there already and will continue to be there but it is totally unregulated. We have countless regulations to stop us buying a bit of food which might might just make us trot to the toilet a bit more often than normal.
At the same time we close our eyes to the fact that large numbers of our population are being sold substances containing heaven knows what.
Legalising drugs does not necessarily mean encouraging their use. Cigarettes are perfectly legal to buy but I don't think the Authorities exactly "encourage" people to smoke.
If legalising drugs makes the problem worse then the law can always be reversed.
One thing is certain, what we are doing at present is not working and by what we have seen so far will never work.
We agree.Your logic and mine cannot be denied but there is not a politician alive that seems prepared to take the risk.Look at the furore created by the move from class B to class C for cannabis.
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