View Full Version : lifetime of experience v paper qualification
:o) Having had watched this forum for a few months before joining I thought this would be a good way to find out how people in Caithness tick.
So what do you think is better ;
A lifetime of experience or a paper qualification gained at a college, uni etc?
:grin:
:o) Having had watched this forum for a few months before joining I thought this would be a good way to find out how people in Caithness tick.
So what do you think is better ;
A lifetime of experience or a paper qualification gained at a college, uni etc?
:grin:
I can think of no situations where extemes present benefits that outweigh balance. So you don't know everything when a diploma gets put in your hand, nor does a lifetime of experience always answer your questions.
Depends what they are in.
So what do you think is better ;
A lifetime of experience or a paper qualification gained at a college, uni etc?
:grin:
a paper qualification at uni, because then they will get the experience.:grin:
crashbandicoot1979
03-Feb-06, 18:33
A lot of it depends on the job - in some cases experience is more useful but in others, its handy to have studied the subject.
It really depends on the nature of the job.Paper qualification only means that the person is at a certain standard required to do the job.
Based on my own experience im a qualified mechanic with 15 years experience
I hace worked with a lot of qualified mechanics and semi skilled mechanics that arent qualified and have just learnt as they go along and I have worked with semi skilled mechanics that are really good at there job and are better than qualified mechanics and i have worked with qualified mechanics that are good in theory but are rubbish when it comes to using there hands.
My own opinion is that hands on experience is worth more than a bit of paper
and technology changes so fast so qualifications gained 10 year ago doesnt mean much depending on the type of work.But unfortunatley thats not the way of the world and companys need people to have the right qualifications so if there is bad workmanship and theres an accident and the health and safety and insurance companys are involved the companys are covered because there employees are qualified to the correct requirements of there job.
I think experience in life is all you need as most jobs you learn as you go along. Paperwork ie certificates only get certain jobs , so does that mean you should qualify in every job before you start it ?
:o) Having had watched this forum for a few months before joining I thought this would be a good way to find out how people in Caithness tick.
So what do you think is better ;
A lifetime of experience or a paper qualification gained at a college, uni etc?
:grin:You're asking us to compare chalk with cheese. The former is gained over (say) 50ish years, and the latter over less than a tenth of that. They're hardly comparable now are they?
Besides, it would be preferable to have both.
With the best will in the world, (almost) no-one could do my job without a paper qualification (or the equivalent gained from reading textbooks together with relevant experience and tutelage).
But a toilet cleaner with a PhD would probably be useless because they'd likely spend all their time moaning.
Paper qualifications are for people who want to learn things quickly when young or to learn new things when older. Besides, in my experience most people with more than two degrees are more akin to stamp collectors. :lol:
If you're a toilet cleaner with (or without) a PhD, or if you have three degrees, then I'm sorry if I've offended you in any way. :o
Three degrees DRszin,,, are they not a pop group? SORRY lol
Oh yes, I forgot to add that Sheila Ferguson is ok despite being three degrees in person. Thanks for reminding me Paris. :)
And I'm not saying what was meant by having (say) 3 A levels when I was at THS. ;)
I once thought of creating a poll asking what everyone's highest educational qualifications were, eg Standard Grade, Highers, HND, degree, PhD, etc, but I thought I'd be crucified for being an elitist or a snob, and probably quite rightly so...
Alice in Blunderland
03-Feb-06, 19:16
I think both are important.Firstly to gain the qualification then out to the big bad world to gain a more in depth knowledge in your chosen subject through experience.
First of all good evening Dr Szin and I have to agree with you in the paper stakes. I think qualifications have their place but in jobs where the position relies on practical abilities I dont think you can beat hands on experience and no amount of paper can give you this!
I am also somewhat mistrusting of people who insist on shoving their qualifications in your face because in my own personal experience these type of people are rubbish on the hands on side of any job or they have made the qualifications up to try to quell their own insecurities!
wickerinca
03-Feb-06, 19:27
Oh yes, I forgot to add that Sheila Ferguson is ok despite being three degrees in person. Thanks for reminding me Paris.
And I'm not saying what was meant by having (say) 3 A levels when I was at THS.
I once thought of creating a poll asking what everyone's highest educational qualifications were, eg Standard Grade, Highers, HND, degree, PhD, etc, but I thought I'd be crucified for being an elitist or a snob, and probably quite rightly so...
Crucified?......probably!!:o) A degree...if that is the way you want to go ........great! ......but I am with Eddie on this one. I didn't go to Uni for various reasons which are personal. I regret not doing so!...and I am still trying to find one thing that I am interested in enough to study it for four years or whatever. I am afraid that I am one of those people who gets bored with a subject once I know enough about that subject to get me through life.
I have lived in various parts of the World and I find that it is universal........there are people everywhere that are bright, funny and excellent at what they do without a qualification to their name and there are some that could add 5 degrees to the 3 they already have and they would still be complete numpties!!......and various combinations in between, and vice versa......and everthing else! I admire people that can study for their degrees and then continue with painstaking research for the rest of their working lives........there are many of them that live in the same area that I do and I have come into contact with many of them due to some environmental problems that we had..but I have to tell you......a lot of them do not live on the same planet as the rest of us:o) Wonderful people........but very opinionated and..(thinking).....Nope can't think:roll: :lol:
You are all wrong! Ignorance is Bliss! So there! :lol:
I think most of you are in agreement that in almost all cases a mixture of both qualifications and experience are required. In most jobs you generally find one more useful than the other.
Where intellect is the main requirement then paper qualifications are highly likely to be essential.
Where experience comes in then paper qualifications probably will not be so essential.
To give an extreme example, if I had to choose between standing next to somebody doing bomb disposal I would rather stand next to one with no paper qualifications and had disarmed 500 devices than one with a whole stack of paper qualifications who was disarming his first bomb.
I would at least know that the one who had disarmed 500 bombs was good at his job otherwise there would be 499 bombs he never got round to.
No matter what job you do though, there is always a certain amount you have to learn before you can even start even, if it's only so you know which end of the toilet brush to get hold of. (NB, Dr.s, NB) :grin:
wickerinca
03-Feb-06, 19:34
You are all wrong! Ignorance is Bliss! So there! :lol:
I think most of you are in agreement that in almost all cases a mixture of both qualifications and experience are required. In most jobs you generally find one more useful than the other.
Where intellect is the main requirement then paper qualifications are highly likely to be essential.
Where experience comes in then paper qualifications probably will not be so essential.
To give an extreme example, if I had to choose between standing next to somebody doing bomb disposal I would rather stand next to one with no paper qualifications and had disarmed 500 devices than one with a whole stack of paper qualifications who was disarming his first bomb.
I would at least know that the one who had disarmed 500 bombs was good at his job otherwise there would be 499 bombs he never got round to.
No matter what job you do though, there is always a certain amount you have to learn before you can even start even, if it's only so you know which end of the toilet brush to get hold of. (NB, Dr.s, NB) :grin:
Great post Jaws! Loved the Bomb disposal thing:lol: [lol] And every word you said is true!
valentine
03-Feb-06, 20:02
well i think i pretty much agree with most - that is it depends on the type of job you are doing, if you are working with animals or doing something practical I think experience far outweighs any amount of qualifications, I too have found that in real life people who claim to have many degrees etc seem to lack severely in the common sense and logic realms.!
sorry if this offends I dont want loads of neg feedback its just a personal observation.
All my qualifications are useless to me in my line of work (computers). I'm now doing something I really enjoy because I had some experience in it.....
wickerinca
03-Feb-06, 21:14
All my qualifications are useless to me in my line of work (computers). I'm now doing something I really enjoy because I had some experience in it.....
Glad that you are enjoying your work:o) Lots of people don't:cry:
Glad that you are enjoying your work:o) Lots of people don't:cry:
Yes, very true. I've been in that position before, its not very nice.
landmarker
03-Feb-06, 21:45
Surely, after a 'lifetimes experience' you are either dead, or at the very least out of the labour market. The question is flawed.
wickerinca
03-Feb-06, 21:51
You are stirring, Landmarker!!!:lol: :lol: Lifetimes experience is probably indicating an older age group but I'm still with the Bomb guy that was trained to do his job.
Commonsense seems to be at the root of experience?
<snip>
Commonsense seems to be at the root of experience?
Totally agree....often even those highly trained meet situations they didn't cover in training!
landmarker
03-Feb-06, 21:56
You are stirring, Landmarker!!!:lol: :lol: Lifetimes experience is probably indicating an older age group but I'm still with the Bomb guy that was trained to do his job.
Commonsense seems to be at the root of experience?
One of the few rimes I could see such a question being relevant or accurate, is perhaps this example....
....Two Policemen ranking Inspector, go for a Chief Inspectors job. One is a fast track graduate who joined the 'service' at 23 & was elevated to Inpector two years ago after two years as a P.C. & two years as a Sergeant (wotever). The other candidate joined at nineteen, spent nine years as a P.C., four years at Sergeant and has been an Inspector for four years.
I'd give the latter the job everytime.
I wasn't trying to stir or be clever - 'onest. Just that this scenario is one of the few where such a poser is really relevant imho.
wickerinca
03-Feb-06, 22:00
One of the few rimes I could see such a question being relevant or accurate, is perhaps this example....
....Two Policemen ranking Inspector, go for a Chief Inspectors job. One is a fast track graduate who joined the 'service' at 23 & was elevated to Inpector two years ago after two years as a P.C. & two years as a Sergeant (wotever). The other candidate joined at nineteen, spent nine years as a P.C., four years at Sergeant and has been an Inspector for four years.
I'd give the latter the job everytime.
I wasn't trying to stir or be clever - 'onest. Just that this scenario is one of the few where such a poser is really relevant imho.
I Know:grin: .. it was me that was stirring.......and I agree with your choice for Chief Inspector!!
Whitewater
03-Feb-06, 22:19
Some good posts here, I think both are essential depending on the type of work you do. For myself, I completed an apprenticeship during which I obtained a Higher National certificate and later in life I met a barrier at which I couldn't get any more promotion unless I had a degree (for insurance purposes I was told) so of I went to the open university. On reflection now, I don't know if it mattered as the rules were changed, but I must admit I enjoyed it, but I always felt comfortable in my job at any level and as I had practical experience I was always able to help and advise in the hands on department, and I felt I got more respect for that.
Bobinovich
03-Feb-06, 22:28
All my qualifications are useless to me in my line of work (computers). I'm now doing something I really enjoy because I had some experience in it.....
Snap! I was all poised to start my 4-year stint at Robert Gordons but found my IT experience in high demand so I never made it to Aberdeen!!
I also agree that it's (usually) a very enjoyable line of work to be in, and very little of my previous education is relevant nowadays - just keeping up with the latest IT developments is hard enough!
I think that the diploma ( school, college, uni...any or all of these) gives you a foundation and that the experience builds on that foundation. You need both.
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill...
Royster1911
04-Feb-06, 12:59
The university of life has never failed me yet. New problems daily to be solved and still learning after 56 years:)
The university of life has never failed me yet.
graduated from the school of 'hard knocks' myself:p
cuddlepop
04-Feb-06, 16:18
Because of circumstances I cant work fulltime but when I apply for a part time post I am always :roll: over qualified.So sometimes they go against you,qualifications that is.
Experience and education are obviously pretty important things to get you through life but the one I am becomming increasingly aware of is first instinct or gut feeling.
When you are young you are taught to be wary of and look below first impressions but increasingly I find that my instinct was right first time round.
I think that it works a bit like smell which just seems to bypass the usual brain circuitry and intellectual processes to pass on immediate information about pleasure or fear which would have been (still is) important when you were living in the back of a cave at Lybster or hunter gathering somewhere near Alltnabreac at the edge of the retreating glaciers.
And here is another chilly, seasonal thought - "Civilisation" is never more than three meals away from break down!
I believe universities are merely teaching kids what they should have learned at the under-performing schools we have.
Only the brightest pupils went to university when I was of school age and almost all came out of school, literate and numerate.
Today, even some teachers seem unable to spell properly, what chance the pupils?
I think that its important to note that a lifetime of experience doesnt necessariy mean that someone is more suitable than someone with less experience.
There should ALWAYS be an open and fair selection method and no one should be promoted or given a job simply on length of service.
A square peg with a PhD no more fits the round hole that the square peg with the lifetime of experience. What you need is a round peg!
I think that its important to note that a lifetime of experience doesnt necessariy mean that someone is more suitable than someone with less experience.
There should ALWAYS be an open and fair selection method and no one should be promoted or given a job simply on length of service.
In alot of cases the person with the less experience is more likely to get the job because it means the company can pay them less because there inexperienced
If you're a toilet cleaner with (or without) a PhD, or if you have three degrees, then I'm sorry if I've offended you in any way. :o[/quote]
wow do they still call them toilet cleaners these days, i thought they would be hygiene technicians.....;)
Bingobabe
06-Mar-06, 21:54
I dont think qualifications are all that important i have a very good job and have gained qualifications while working.I have seen a few people come into my work with with loads of qualifications thinking they know it all but when it comes down to actually doing the work they dont have a clue.I personally think life experenice is what teaches us not your head stuck in a book but thats my opion:Razz :p
Cedric Farthsbottom III
06-Mar-06, 22:07
If you're going to go into a job that requires qualifications,e.g someone who takes a degree in English then takes a post grad. in teaching then fair enough.But for a manual job,best to get your hands dirty and learn through experience.:grin:
connieb19
06-Mar-06, 22:10
I agree with Bingobabe and Cedric....Some of the cleverest people I know have very little common sense!!:roll:
I wouldn't take on a brain surgeon on the strength of their 35 years experience working as a loo cleaner in Dounreay.;)
I dont think qualifications are all that important i have a very good job and have gained qualifications while working.I have seen a few people come into my work with with loads of qualifications thinking they know it all but when it comes down to actually doing the work they dont have a clue.I personally think life experenice is what teaches us not your head stuck in a book but thats my opion:Razz :pIt depends on the job. Would you trust any of the following if they had no qualifications?
Lawyer (who's about to write the contract to help you part with £100,000 to buy your new house)
Mortgage advisor (who'll get you that £100,000)
Dentist (who's just about to extract your wisdom teeth)
Surgeon (who's about to remove your appendix)
Anaesthetist (who's about to knock you out)
Accountant (the one who did your tax returns)
Veterinary surgeon (who's trying to save your cat's life)
Civil engineer (the one who built the Forth Bridge)
Nuclear engineer (the one who told you Dounreay is safe)
Pharmacist (who's providing the drugs that keep you alive)
Teacher (who's teaching your kids)
Airline pilot (who's flying your plane to Tenerife)
Mechanical engineer (who designed and built the plane's engines)
Electrician (the one who's just rewired your home)
Plumber (who's just installed your new gas central heating)
Cowboy engineer (who said you shouldn't worry about the dreadful smell of gas in your kitchen)
Anyway, you say you gained qualifications whilst working. Did you get them from a college or from some other body? Not that it should matter. Surely qualifications are qualifications wherever they come from. Qualifications aren't an absolute guarantee of expertise or even of competence, but they give a good indication surely.
It depends on the job. Would you trust any of the following if they had no qualifications?
Lawyer (who's about to write the contract to help you part with £100,000 to buy your new house)
Mortgage advisor (who'll get you that £100,000)
Dentist (who's just about to extract your wisdom teeth)
Surgeon (who's about to remove your appendix)
Anaesthetist (who's about to knock you out)
Accountant (the one who did your tax returns)
Veterinary surgeon (who's trying to save your cat's life)
Civil engineer (the one who built the Forth Bridge)
Nuclear engineer (the one who told you Dounreay is safe)
Pharmacist (who's providing the drugs that keep you alive)
Teacher (who's teaching your kids)
Airline pilot (who's flying your plane to Tenerife)
Mechanical engineer (who designed and built the plane's engines)
Electrician (the one who's just rewired your home)
Plumber (who's just installed your new gas central heating)
Cowboy engineer (who said you shouldn't worry about the dreadful smell of gas in your kitchen)
Anyway, you say you gained qualifications whilst working. Did you get them from a college from from some other body? Not that it should matter. Surely qualifications are qualifications wherever they come from. Qualifications aren't an absolute guarantee of expertise or even of competence, but they give a good indication surely.
Phew I was getting worried there Doc, I agree with your list fully as soon as I saw you had not included MP's,SMP's, Councilors, or Social Workers
I think it also depends on the qualification, I sat an HNC in the old style final exams etc and worked hard to get it, a few years later I went back to do the HND and discovered it was all units and assessments, some people in the class were getting 3 or even 4 chances at sitting the assessment and at the end of the day came out with the same qualification as me, there is nothing on the certificate to say I passed first time and they passed on their 4th attempt - leaving me to say that I now feel that my qualifications are devalued and probably not worth the paper they are writen on, especially in this area where every second person you meet has a HNC/HND
Phew I was getting worried there Doc, I agree with your list fully as soon as I saw you had not included MP's,SMP's, Councilors, or Social WorkersI simply listed the first relevant jobs that came into my head. You don't need any formal qualifications to be an MP, MSP or councillor, and that often shows...
I don't know anything about social workers...
I think it also depends on the qualification, I sat an HNC in the old style final exams etc and worked hard to get it, a few years later I went back to do the HND and discovered it was all units and assessments, some people in the class were getting 3 or even 4 chances at sitting the assessment and at the end of the day came out with the same qualification as me, there is nothing on the certificate to say I passed first time and they passed on their 4th attempt - leaving me to say that I now feel that my qualifications are devalued and probably not worth the paper they are writen on, especially in this area where every second person you meet has a HNC/HNDThe same is true of some A Levels. As far as I can make out, you can resit A Level Maths modules until you get the grades you want. This shows that the student can do the relevant maths, but it's not much help in evaluating their ability to apply what they've learned to more challenging problems, or their aptitude for further study.
Bingobabe
07-Mar-06, 17:45
It depends on the job. Would you trust any of the following if they had no qualifications?
Lawyer (who's about to write the contract to help you part with £100,000 to buy your new house)
Mortgage advisor (who'll get you that £100,000)
Dentist (who's just about to extract your wisdom teeth)
Surgeon (who's about to remove your appendix)
Anaesthetist (who's about to knock you out)
Accountant (the one who did your tax returns)
Veterinary surgeon (who's trying to save your cat's life)
Civil engineer (the one who built the Forth Bridge)
Nuclear engineer (the one who told you Dounreay is safe)
Pharmacist (who's providing the drugs that keep you alive)
Teacher (who's teaching your kids)
Airline pilot (who's flying your plane to Tenerife)
Mechanical engineer (who designed and built the plane's engines)
Electrician (the one who's just rewired your home)
Plumber (who's just installed your new gas central heating)
Cowboy engineer (who said you shouldn't worry about the dreadful smell of gas in your kitchen)
Anyway, you say you gained qualifications whilst working. Did you get them from a college or from some other body? Not that it should matter. Surely qualifications are qualifications wherever they come from. Qualifications aren't an absolute guarantee of expertise or even of competence, but they give a good indication surely.ok get the picture but still think that most people who are over qualified have got absoultley no common sense. And like i said thats my opion but still think experenice makes you better at what you do.
ok get the picture but still think that most people who are over qualified have got absoultley no common sense.Yes indeed, your over-qualified person is my toilet cleaner with a PhD. He should be doing something else with his life. And the man with three degrees is often lost too...
And like i said thats my opion but still think experenice makes you better at what you do.Yes, of course. I didn't intend to imply otherwise.
But experience can sometimes make you worse too - when boredom sets in. I know I'm worse at some aspects of my job than I was five or more years ago - that's because they're no longer any challenge and it's hard to get motivated to do them to the best of my ability. Inexperienced enthusiasm can help too, and it's often cheaper. There are other things I do a hundred times better than ten years ago - getting my own way in meetings being one of them. :)
I suspect we agree on most things, but we emphasize them differently. I want my dentist to be qualified, but I also want him to have a lot of experience. The same applies to JAWS' bomb-disposal mannie.
I think in all honesty the UK has gone degree crazy and it is now seen that a degree is a prerequisite for anyone getting a reasonable job. Like any other industry the education industry is capable of deceit and trickery in selling us stuff that we don’t actually need in the majority of cases – however the availability of those services for those who require them should is necessary.
There are many things to be considered in education and one of them is different people seek education at different times – some of the most adept professionals I have met first served their time, worked at their trade then progressed educationally.
Some on here have said they have met people with higher degrees and no common sense, I have met people with no qualifications and no common sense and vice versa. The problem with many graduates is that they think they are owed a decent job after going through university……that is not the case.
There is an incredible amount of work, effort and determination that goes into attaining a higher degree, but unless you can utilize those skills in the workplace you will not succeed.
I agree with most of what you say scotsboy. But it's the government who decided that 50% of young people should go on to full-time higher education (or rebranded further education). Consequently, universities and colleges have been forced to swim with the tide or to sink ignominiously.
I think the mythical figure of 50% is probably too high, possibly much too high, and that a (small?) fraction of that 50% would be better served by a modernised (whatever that means) form of "on-the-job-training with day-release", perhaps followed by a part-time or compressed full-time degree if and when appropriate. It seems to me that a substantial minority of today's students spend 3 or 4 years just "getting a degree" because they think they'll be better off with one, and this time could be better-spent. (Note that I'm not referring to mature students here - they are a class apart.)
Of course, I'm generalising too much, and we shouldn't return to the days when only 10 or 20% of the populace went on to further study after school, but I'm sure you get my gist... I just don't think we've got the balance quite right yet.
I would agree with that to a point, there was a drive for expansion of the further education system prior to the 50% figure though. Media Studies degrees - how many people have you met with them?!!!
One of my goals is to get a PhD before I am 50. I don't need to get it, but it is something I want to try to do.........I wonder if I will have a lifetime of experience by then or not......maybe I should get out more.
I would agree with that to a point, there was a drive for expansion of the further education system prior to the 50% figure though. Media Studies degrees - how many people have you met with them?!!!Lol, I was going to bring up the dreaded Media Studies but I chickened out.
Yes, you're right about the previous drives for expansion - there have been several, starting in the 60s, speeding up in the early 90s, and continuing with the steady increase of recent years. I am told that the figure of 50% has already been reached in Scotland, but I'm too lazy to google-up a website to back up that claim.
One of my goals is to get a PhD before I am 50. I don't need to get it, but it is something I want to try to do.........I wonder if I will have a lifetime of experience by then or not......maybe I should get out more.Doing a PhD could severely curtail your scope for getting out more - unless it's in Media Studies in which case it could greatly enhance it. ;)
But don't write your thesis on Brokeback Mountain, or you'll have landmarker, golach and a few others on your back - no pun intended, it was accidental, honestly. :lol: [lol]
I am quite surprised at Golach’s reaction, with him being a former Steward in the Merchant Navy……being an ex-Merchant Seaman myself I can just see him serving up some fruit cake!
ok get the picture but still think that most people who are over qualified have got absoultley no common sense.
I think that that notion is a popular misconception borne out of jealousy in that most of the purveyors of that notion don't have the brains to get qualifications so it gives them a nice bit of perverse satisfaction to made them feel more equal. How do you gauge common sense? By age and experience? Most graduates are young but so are young people with no qualifications and I've come across lots of young drongos with no common sense in my time, so an accusation of being over qualified people having no common sense doesn't hold water, imho. :)
I am quite surprised at Golach’s reaction, with him being a former Steward in the Merchant Navy……being an ex-Merchant Seaman myself I can just see him serving up some fruit cake!
That part of my life was long long ago, and I swore I would never be a lacky to any dirty oily off white boilersuited jumped up junior engineer. I have not changed my opinion since and have now moved on to better and finer exploits. But apart from that rant, what has my former life got to do with my opinion on this thread?
Interesting topic, this.
Rheghead, you ask "How do we guage common sense?". I would ask "Who do we get to guage it?"
Is it not something we all think we're blessed with? I cannot think of anyone who would say they didn't have it if asked ...maybe it's some kind of inbuilt human arrogance (or something). Is there a distinct and complete definition? Is it something you're born with?
I don't think so...
...Both my husband and I went to uni when it just about still meant something special - before the establishments down south were filled up with rich fee-paying foreigners (and no, I'm neither rascist nor xenophobe) and before that flock of unified and uniformed 18-year-olds flowed in through the doors and became the next generation of students encouraged in their masses to pay for higher education.
We were lucky enough to appreciate the freedom, to be full of the joys of sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll; to be full of ourselves!
That was on one level.
Another level miiiiight have been an appreciation of the opportunity to indulge in Further Education, but hey. The lessons I learned were those of disillusionment, disappointment and hypocrisy, and the immense egotism that we humans tend to court.
My four years moulded me into someone who (even now) philosophises too much (with a completely useless linguistics degree) and, aided by a strict and sheltered middle-class childhood, someone pliable, gullible and completely feckless in an emergency.
In our final year, we lived on an RSPCA sanctuary (cheap lodgings in the kennels!) and had the good fortune to come across people who actually worked, rather than pondered the nature of Life, the Universe and Everything. Uneducated folk who worked hard and thought little. They had high standards and cared little what others thought of them, and our eyes were opened to a new way of life which we aspired to.
Ten years and a lot of toilets later (both real and metaphorical), my husband is now in a job he needed his bit of (kindling) degree paper to get, and I am happily philosophising to my chickens and ducks and burning all those completely pointless essays on the fire. My parents expected a lawyer or a doctor, but they got someone who can get their hands dirty and gut fish, tile bathrooms, make tables, a whole lot of other subjectively interesting and enjoyable things - not least recognise how to avoid that emergency in advance (mostly!).
Neither of us would ever want to go back and do the degree-thing again and emerge as one of those faceless thousands. There were no giant leaps for mankind and nothing original left for us to learn in the degrees we did, except novel ways in butt-kissing (excuse me) and plagiarising the works of those we studied.
I guess the bottom line after all that though, is that my husband makes the money with one and I don't.
As for common sense? It's coming....it's coming...
Bingobabe
08-Mar-06, 13:47
I think that that notion is a popular misconception borne out of jealousy in that most of the purveyors of that notion don't have the brains to get qualifications so it gives them a nice bit of perverse satisfaction to made them feel more equal. How do you gauge common sense? By age and experience? Most graduates are young but so are young people with no qualifications and I've come across lots of young drongos with no common sense in my time, so an accusation of being over qualified people having no common sense doesn't hold water, imho. :)No i disagree with you here myself personnally have come across a few arrogrant graduates who have come into my place of work. And because they have got a few degrees under there belt they think they know everything not saying there all like that. But when it comes to getting the work done they seem to become very confused so thats were i think experenice prevails.
Also spare a thought for people who have not been priviliged to go univeresty ie the under priviliged for example people who have to go out and work and have no option in the matter. And if your implying that i am jealous im not i admire them as they have had a great opportunity to further there education. Also i still stand by what i have said that through my personnal experenice the gradutes i have encountered have had no common sense.
crashbandicoot1979
08-Mar-06, 16:57
I can see both sides of this arguement. I have a degree which is in no way related to the job I do and I certainly don't need a degree to do it. The other people I work with do not have degrees and we are all just as capable of doing our job. I feel that the fact I am academically clever does not mean that I lack common sense although that may be the case in some instances. The reason I went to university was simply because I could. I got the grades and I got accepted for a course that I had never even considered studying. I loved every minute of it and although the course itself has little to do with my job, many of the life skills are relevant. Plus I did so many things in that four years that I would never have done otherwise.
Whats more, I would NEVER EVER think for one moment that I am in any way better than my work colleagues because I have a piece of paper that they don't have. They have experience in the job which means just as much to them as my degree means to me and I am grateful for the fact that I can learn from them. I agree with rheghead that some people are jealous, therefore make assumptions. As far as I am concerned, if people WANT to believe that I am better than them, therefore put me down to make themselves feel better, then that is their problem, not mine.
Golach wrote:
That part of my life was long long ago, and I swore I would never be a lacky to any dirty oily off white boilersuited jumped up junior engineer. I have not changed my opinion since and have now moved on to better and finer exploits. But apart from that rant, what has my former life got to do with my opinion on this thread?
Junior Engineers were/are a strange breed - LOL
White boilersuits as well, they were standard BP isssue.......remember most engineers only had the rear dirty!.
Frommy time in the Merchant, a fair number of stewards (especially 2nd Stewards) were of the Brokeback Mountain variety - made a lovely cup of team mind:)
Bingobabe
08-Mar-06, 20:07
I agree with rheghead that some people are jealous, therefore make assumptions. As far as I am concerned, if people WANT to believe that I am better than them, therefore put me down to make themselves feel better, then that is their problem, not mine.
If this part of your comments is to have a dig at me i think you have picked me up entirely wrong.For one i stated in my experenice i have come across a few arrogant gradutes who think they know it all which i have.For two i never make assumptions unless i have experinced it frist hand which i have.For three i have never made anyone i have encountered in my workplace especially a gradute feel inadequate as it is degrading and would never put anyone in that position.For three i have never been jealous of anyone with a degree because i love my life and everything about and it has been the path in life i have choosen and would not change it.
crashbandicoot1979
08-Mar-06, 20:33
If this part of your comments is to have a dig at me i think you have picked me up entirely wrong.For one i stated in my experenice i have come across a few arrogant gradutes who think they know it all which i have.For two i never make assumptions unless i have experinced it frist hand which i have.For three i have never made anyone i have encountered in my workplace especially a gradute feel inadequate as it is degrading and would never put anyone in that position.For three i have never been jealous of anyone with a degree because i love my life and everything about and it has been the path in life i have choosen and would not change it.
Sorry bingobabe, I can assure you my post was not directed at you. You have made your point quite clear in your earlier posts. If anything, I agree with you in some respects. Firstly, because you state you are happy with your own life, therefore it follows that you have respect for others that have chosen a different path. Secondly, I know exactly what you mean by arrogant graduates. In particular there is a graduate who works for the same employer and department as me but in a different office - she makes it quite clear at every chance she gets, that she has a degree, which has alienated her from her colleagues because they just find her stuck up and arrogant. And personally I find her arrogant aswell - its people like her that give all graduates a bad name.
I was referring to people who are clearly not happy with their own lives so therefore decide to have a go at other people (and believe me, I have met a few of them in the past!!!!). My apologies again.
Bingobabe
08-Mar-06, 20:42
Sorry bingobabe, I can assure you my post was not directed at you. You have made your point quite clear in your earlier posts. If anything, I agree with you in some respects. Firstly, because you state you are happy with your own life, therefore it follows that you have respect for others that have chosen a different path. Secondly, I know exactly what you mean by arrogant graduates. In particular there is a graduate who works for the same employer and department as me but in a different office - she makes it quite clear at every chance she gets, that she has a degree, which has alienated her from her colleagues because they just find her stuck up and arrogant. And personally I find her arrogant aswell - its people like her that give all graduates a bad name.
I was referring to people who are clearly not happy with their own lives so therefore decide to have a go at other people (and believe me, I have met a few of them in the past!!!!). My apologies again.apology excepted
Uni of Life, you can't beat it. Ok, so a degree tells someone you can study, but not all of us are suited to having wur noses stuck in books, and can do a job just as well from experience, or as they say these days, "On the job training!"
Bingobabe
08-Mar-06, 22:28
Uni of Life, you can't beat it. Ok, so a degree tells someone you can study, but not all of us are suited to having wur noses stuck in books, and can do a job just as well from experience, or as they say these days, "On the job training!"WELL SAID!!!!!!!:p
The Pepsi Challenge
10-Mar-06, 07:40
Personally...
I think the best way to learn about your chosen profession is via apprenticeship: you get your foot in the door, and you learn from the best. But that's just my way of thinking.
I never attended university - I did get into Napier Uni at 2nd year level. However, the head tutor - I had applied for the Journalism degree course - advised me not to take up the course for I "was already established in journalism and would discover nothing new." Yes, I was flattered, Scotsboy. Thing was, I wanted to apply for jobs in England, and you need a degree to get into newspapers south of the Border. Up here, in Scotland, you just have to be able to do the job, and be reliable (i.e. available 24/7 and getting your copy in on time). In my case, I got into this line of work by nothing other than being in the right place at the right time.
I remember the days when I worked for the North Edinburgh News, a community newspaper based in sunny Pilton. We used to receive covering letters from Journalism graduates who could barely string a sentence together. Basically, they had the theory but couldn't really put it into practice. I don't know many people in newspapers who have a degree. Maybe that's why Scottish newspapers (including myself) come under so much scrutiny ;-)
I agree that an apprenticeship would be great for some people, but they seem harder to come accross these days. The education system should be moulded to suit everybody's needs, not just the people who can, and want to study. There are children, through no fault of there own who are unable to do well at school, and the system insists that they stay on. It would be great if they could be allowed to train for a trade at a much earlier age. That would let the teachers, teach, and would give the country a good boost of tradesman, which it needs.
Don't know how it could be put into practice though.
I did ok at school, but the day I left was one of the best days of my life, apart from meeting my wife, and the days my children were born!!
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