View Full Version : CHaP
Was driving past the Distilery today and wondered what is the latest start date (If ever) for the new Caithness Heat and Power plant.
Anyone know?
2little2late
29-Dec-08, 16:54
How long is a piece of string?
Every week it's not working is costing us (the taxpayer) a small fortune, boiler rental and fuel costs etc.
Where is this money coming from and how long will it last?
Heard the council were going to be refitting fireplaces.
I wouldn't imagine the council will install fireplaces as going towards coal would be a few steps backwards, Think if anything they will install electric boilers as this would probably be the cheapest cost!
telfordstar
03-Jan-09, 15:29
How long is a piece of string?
lol thats exactly what i was going to say. Its been a disaster since day one and probably dosnt help that some of those that have the heating in there homes dont even bother to pay a penny for it.[mad]
ywindythesecond
03-Jan-09, 19:23
I wouldn't imagine the council will install fireplaces as going towards coal would be a few steps backwards, Think if anything they will install electric boilers as this would probably be the cheapest cost!
It won't be if the electricity comes from windmills!!
Sorry, I meant cheapest installation option! I have ChaP but I'm a private tennant so hopefully if it goes up in smoke we'll not be left in the cold as I cant afford another 3k for heating installation!!
Surley the council would be obliged to install an alternative heating source?!
dirtywicker
03-Jan-09, 22:19
also heard the council are putting fireplaces back in
also heard the council are putting fireplaces back in
I'm not trying to say any of yous are wrong but it does seem stupid reinstalling fireplaces and using a more backward method of energy with coal, Any of us could start up a rumour, as we've seen here before, with all the shops that are supposed to be coming!! I could start up one, if many people here it doesn't actually mean its happening!!
For all I know I could be wrong in thinking this, especially with council decisions!!!!
There has to come a point when the council say "enough is enough". They cannot keep pouring money into a bottomless pit.
Alice in Blunderland
04-Jan-09, 12:39
There has to come a point when the council say "enough is enough". They cannot keep pouring money into a bottomless pit.
woops this is the council we are talking about here :eek: ................Wick High just popped into my head and the amount of money they continue to spend just keeping up with the repairs. ;)
woops this is the council we are talking about here :eek: ................Wick High just popped into my head and the amount of money they continue to spend just keeping up with the repairs. ;)
Maybe they can get another second hand boiler from Inverness to keep this scheme going.
What is happening at the WORLD LEADING and GROUND BREAKING CHaP Project .
Have the rats all left that sinking ship ,to go down with £8 million for TAX PAYERS MONEY and still more to follow ..
Its the community and the private householders that will face an uncertain future,they where all promised so much by a few hell bent on self promotion and financial gain.
Those on the ORG will know my feeling about the Project from the out-set ,and "I told you so " holds no comfort.
The project can be saved if the new managment would listen and learn from the mistakes of those who have gone before .
Well they haven't and on speaking to the new chairperson late last year .He stated "The project had started down a road of no return or turns" the money will have to be FOUND .
For the Caithness folk that read the local paper and remember that I and the past Chairperson of CHaP (Councillor G Smith) locked horns on more than a few occasions .He stated that "I was misleading the public with scare tactics and that the experts would have it up and running in weeks".Well its 3 years later and i'm still waiting for an apology ..
I did make an offer to the new chairperson to look over the project ,and put forward a proposal to take over part (engineering side) with a Community /Council Partnership . This received a swift NO ..I was told that they where getting a new group of consultants to lookover what is there ,and report.
So there we have it ,stale mate ..
The placement of the Project at Pulteney robbed Wick High School, Swimming Pool and Hospital of money better spent elsewhere .
The Pulteney site would have only really be beneficial to the Distillery (a private company) saved them 100s of thousands per year and generating large amounts of CARBON CREDITS.They used a "Selling Point" for it all .Some homes would have had affordable heating installed ,but they should have had the central heating installed years ago ,be it coal or gas .
Pulteney would and should have had a community heat scheme with a stand alone boiler system that would have used wood, paper and waste cardboard as a fuel.
By the way this is for the WICK HIGH SCHOOL GROUP ,if the school uses Biomass as a main source of heating there are Huge grants available for new build projects...
I am told that to date about 19 Millon pounds has been spent on this Project and still it Does Not WORK and never will with the set up they have put in.
Where is Councillor Smith to Explain things as he had a lot to Say on this at the Start.
The 19 million is being Funded by Council Tax payers !
For 10 Million we could of had a NEW School !
Just to show how much could be saved if they have gone the other way ane placed the Project at the Railway Station Site .The School would have save 80% on its heating as would the Swimming pool .The Hospital saving would have only been about 60-65% but they would have save on boiler maintenance and replacement ...All these types of building could have had small stand-alone heating systems fuelled by biomass .These saving could and should have been used to upgraded or replace what we have .They wasted the money and are continuing to do so, and we can't stop them or hold them to account..
The figure for Caithness Schools and Swimming pools is £680,000 in reduced heating costs ...Its your money they're burning ...
Green_not_greed
09-Jan-09, 16:18
I am told that to date about 19 Millon pounds has been spent on this Project and still it Does Not WORK and never will with the set up they have put in.
Where is Councillor Smith to Explain things as he had a lot to Say on this at the Start.
The 19 million is being Funded by Council Tax payers !
For 10 Million we could of had a NEW School !
Well said Coachman, someone should be made accountable for this. Smith would seem appropriate. If accountability can't be enforced then voters should remember who has helped squander £19M at the next council elections.
In a Press Release dated 09/2/2006 from Highland council Councillor smith States-"The people of Pulteneytown have a chance to take part in an exciting development which Should SAVE them Money and contribute to a reduction of fossl fuel carbon emissions"
In April 2006 this project was quoted to cost £4 Million to date it has cost in the region of £19 million and still does not Work .
A large amount of Heavy Oil is now being used to Produce heat and this is Not a Reduction in Fossil Fuel Carbon Emissions But a massive increase!
This Project has been a load of Bull-Plop. Typical of these schemes is that you hear a lot about them when they are heralded as the Great White Hope, but the silence is deafening when they turn into the biggest White Elephant in History. What makes me baulk is the fact that they secured funding for a second gasifier, without ever making the first one work. It stinks, like so much other nonsense that is passed by people who don't have the foggiest idea about how it is supposed to work. Front page news about a Major Retailer who might bring two new jobs within a Wick store (probably at the expense of two existing jobs) and not a word about money being pissed down a heating pipe while the School is dying.
Typical Caithness mentality. Dangle some new shops and fancy ideas and we are eating out of the hands of "Experts". There is a fleece involved here, but it is not Jason's Golden one!!
I to find it strange that there are not more Wick folk up in arms about CHaP .Is it because a so-call one of their own has seen them off or what .
Whats the WHS group doing about it ,did the council spent the money on CHaP ???????
CHAP are up in Court on Friday action taken by one of there suppliers.
This will cost us ALL money as the Highland Council legal Team act for CHAP and they are funded by us The Taxpayer via the Council Tax.
In my opinion (for what it's worth) a bit of education to some of the customers (and I use the term loosely as if you don't pay are you still a customer?). If you drive up the streets with the "heating" you will see in the middle of the coldest days windows wide open. It seems that some "people" have the heating going flat out then when the house gets hot they just open the windows to cool down. Using the thermostats would help the system and possibly do away with the oil tanker having to be plumbed directly to the system in Albert street.
The oil tanker was situated there as a company that has products inside were proving that there part of the system was operating correctly. As you may now be aware the tanker is gone and was only there for a week or 2.
The blame lies in the hands of the operators not the customers surley, when they were trying to sell the system, one of there selling points when the system started was constant heat and hot water 'You can leave your tap on all night and it'd still be hot in the morning, its also meter free'
2little2late
14-Jan-09, 19:09
I would think the best person to get answers from is Councillor Graeme Smith, after all he is the Chairperson of CHaP isn't he? If he isn't I know he is on the Committee anyway.
I to find it strange that there are not more Wick folk up in arms about CHaP .Is it because a so-call one of their own has seen them off or what .
Whats the WHS group doing about it ,did the council spent the money on CHaP ???????
Maybe the people of wick are up in arms about it, but dont have an agenda and would rather leave it until an official announcement is made rather than speculate and dig up old rivalries. YES the scheme has been a waste(it bypassed my house) but I will wait and see what the outcome will be before I pass judgement. It seems that some are envious of Pulteney having this system and take great delight in "kicking a dog when its down".Pulteney should have had central heating along time ago but didnt. I have storage heating and a coal fire that only heats the living room but hey I'm not bitter,I make do with what i've got and dont gloat over others who may be worse off than me and would struggle to pay my heating bills.
At least the thought behind the project was to help those in need.
hotrod4
Please explain "dig up old rivalries"
I would like to put things straight .I think you have been misinformed as to CHaP
The first objective for the project had little or no intension of helping those in need .The Pulteney People Heating Scheme side of the project was a means to an end ,the major beneficiaries was to be Inverhouse Distilleries Ltd.
They took first place and they would have saved 100s of thousands on ruuning costs .
The Fuel Poor Community just happened to help hide the facts .
You see CHaP needed to used the system they installed or they would have NEVER got the funding ..Most folk would say "if they are going to use wood they must be burning it a boiler to produce heat".Wrong they wanted to change the wood into gas so they could supply the distillery (which would when past the excess hot water back for use in the community) the extra gas would be used to produce electricity to boost the funds .Yet again distillery first ,community second .
I am deeply Sorry that the Wick project as now fallen ,but they were told from the outset that the system they planned to use was flawed.
Maybe you missed the articles in the press and on the ORG ..
You say that some "delight in kicking a dog when its down" the project was a dog dinner from the start..
CHaP were given many offers of help but they where all turned down ..the project can yet be saved ,but not with the present scheme or management...
I would think the best person to get answers from is Councillor Graeme Smith, after all he is the Chairperson of CHaP isn't he? If he isn't I know he is on the Committee anyway.
Graeme Smith is no longer one of the directors. It would appear that Local Councillor Katrina MacNab IS however. It seems that information is hard to find but I tracked down the minutes of a Special Meeting of the Highland Council held on 1st August 2008:-
http://www.highland.gov.uk/yourcouncil/committees/thehighlandcouncil/2008-08-01-thc-min.htm
The section relating to CHAP is reproduced below:-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"13. Caithness Heat and Power
Declaration of Interest:
Mr G Smith declared a non-financial interest in this item on the grounds of being a Director of Caithness Heat and Power Ltd and having applied the test outlined in Paragraph 5.18 of the Councillors’ Code of Conduct, concluded that his interest did not preclude his involvement in the discussion (and voting).
There had been tabled for Members only Report No. HC/30/08 by the Chief Executive which provided an update on the current position with relation to both Caithness Heat and Power Ltd (CHaP) and the Council.
The report set out a range of options for the Council’s consideration and detailed the associated risks and benefits.
Decision
After discussion, the Council:-
(i) AGREED that, on the basis of the information provided by external
consultants and CHaP, on balance the most favourable Option available to
the Council in order to protect its interests would be Option B (sub Option
2/ 3 as set out in paras 6.2 – 6.4) with the following stepped approach
being taken forward:
* Achieve control over the Company and further improve governance arrangements
* Provide leeway for the Company to pay the creditors.
* Secure the temporary delivery of the heat and hot water supply by the use of oil.
* Provide or secure staff resources to support and manage the Company.
* Commence the design and subsequent procurement of alternative carbon-neutral biomass boiler system to secure the heat network and thereby limit clawback of EST grants.
* Commence the option appraisal of alternative plant configurations to achieve Council objectives
* Review the current District Heat network and assess the need for any remedial works.
* Examine the liabilities and the ability to pursue consultants/ contractors for non-delivery.
* Accurately establish whether electricity generation was financially viable. Thereafter decide whether:
a) To continue to operate in-house.
b) To work in partnership.
c) To sell as a going concern on the basis of a lump sum payment or
reduced lump sum with agreement for royalties.
(ii) NOTED that there might be additional financial and legal implications associated with pursuing this Option and these would be subject to further reports to the Council;
(iii) AGREED to form a Single Member Company and the appointment of the
following 6 Directors to the Company:-
* Councillor J Gray
* Councillor D Henderson
* Councillor J Laing
* Councillor K MacNab
* Councillor W Ross
* Councillor J Urquhart; and
(iv) AGREED to the use of Council balances to provide working capital up to
£6.8m for the purposes described in Paragraph 9 of the report."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Make of it what you will, I personally see little positive to take from it and it reads like trying to make the best of a cock-up.
Councillors, and contact details for them, are freely available on the Highland Council website and I am sure they would be only too happy to answer questions from concerned members of the public:-
http://www.highland.gov.uk/yourcouncil/yourcouncillors/councillorscontactdetails/
telfordstar
14-Jan-09, 23:03
CHAP are up in Court on Friday action taken by one of there suppliers.
This will cost us ALL money as the Highland Council legal Team act for CHAP and they are funded by us The Taxpayer via the Council Tax.
Mmmmmm did you phone them up and ask this?
Mmmmmm did you phone them up and ask this?
Sorry telfordstar but he is right. You can view the information on the Wick Sheriff Court Website daily list.
telfordstar
14-Jan-09, 23:53
Ah well nevermind.
This heating scheme works very well in Aberdeen and other areas, or it did when I visited it but that was 3 years ago. (I used to work for CHaP)
One of the major issues here is that the heating costs are collected separately from the rent and once a tenant refuses or does not pay then there isn't much that can be done about it in regards to cutting their supply. It can't be switched off and the minimum temperature a householder can set it to is 5 degrees.
I've been waiting for new heating since I moved here 18 months ago, my house has electric storage heating, it was the only reason I agreed to taking the tenancy. Looks like I am stuck with a cold house and a massive fuel bill!
This heating scheme works very well in Aberdeen and other areas, or it did when I visited it but that was 3 years ago. (I used to work for CHaP)
One of the major issues here is that the heating costs are collected separately from the rent and once a tenant refuses or does not pay then there isn't much that can be done about it in regards to cutting their supply. It can't be switched off and the minimum temperature a householder can set it to is 5 degrees.
I've been waiting for new heating since I moved here 18 months ago, my house has electric storage heating, it was the only reason I agreed to taking the tenancy. Looks like I am stuck with a cold house and a massive fuel bill!
I was led to believe that the scheme in Wick was pioneering, and not based on an existing scheme. If the one in Aberdeen worked and the one in Wick isn't, based on the same system, then something is even more of an abortion than it seems it already is. People need to wake up to a) Start comparing LIKE to LIKE, b) Realising that the guts of seven million quid had been set aside to prove that a flawed scheme is actually flawed.
People in Wick get their Council Tax bill and never bat an eyelid about what it actually pays for. Give them a separate bill to reflect the amount pissed away on a dodgy heating scheme and the roars of discontent would create more heat than any gasified chips.
Ignorance is bliss.
No chestnuts roasting on a Gasifier!!
Margaret M.
15-Jan-09, 05:25
One of the major issues here is that the heating costs are collected separately from the rent and once a tenant refuses or does not pay then there isn't much that can be done about it in regards to cutting their supply. It can't be switched off and the minimum temperature a householder can set it to is 5 degrees.
One would hope that every angle is thoroughly considered before plunging millions into a project so why on earth would something so obvious be overlooked? The whole thing sounds like a total fiasco. Heads should roll.
This heating scheme is not even running on woodchip yet it is still using heating oil and has been for the last 2 years which is costing the taxpayer a fortune and i am told it is using up to 2000 litres a day so much for a enviornmently friendly scheme i think it is time that they gave it up and i cant see why they ever got an award for this but it is ppp and the council we are talking about here.
We could do with some of the posters on here being involved in the scheme, since they seem to have a far greater handle on what's going on than the people running it (well, allegedly!).
I think the arrogance of these bureaucrats, councillors, whatever, whomever they are, is astounding. They probably meet up periodically to tell each other to 'ignore the little people' and keep lining their own and their cronies pockets. Either that, or they are submitting reports to various committees outlining how they are helping the poorest, the environment (bumming themselves up in other words) blah blah blah and from what I've read on here, it's a bunch of lies!!!
Totally disgusting. Shouldn't qualified people, who know something about green energy, be involved/in charge of it? I freely admit I dont know a lot about it, not being an engineer but I naively believed that if they are spending 19 million of our money (splutter), the people in charge would actually know what they are doing. If they don't, they should do the decent thing and resign, stand down whatever.
May as well put me in charge of it, hahahaha!
The council have now decided to have a Full and Independant Audit of this Project.
About time as it is Costing Every Council Tax Payer in the Highlands money and even more now that the heating is running on OIL only.
No word from our local Counciller Mr Smith now ,it was not that long ago he was saying that this system was a World leading one and would save loads of money.
Aaldtimer
13-Feb-09, 21:16
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7888204.stm
The council have now decided to have a Full and Independant Audit of this Project.
About time as it is Costing Every Council Tax Payer in the Highlands money and even more now that the heating is running on OIL only.
No word from our local Counciller Mr Smith now ,it was not that long ago he was saying that this system was a World leading one and would save loads of money.
In 16th January's "Groat" Mr Smith said:-
"Mr Smith, however, dismissed Mr MacLean's attack as "groundless" and said the community company's £3.5 million plans were "on track to make it an international trailblazer". The councillor maintained Mr MacLean's views were "misconceived and ill-informed".
The carbon-neutral gasifier was a prototype which Mr Smith described as "environmentally friendly with the potential to be a world-beater"
Finger right on the pulse eh? If only you could power the "World-Beater" with Hot Air!!
If you could give everyone an individual bill for how much this has been costing them, the uproar would be huge. Since that isn't going to happen, shoulders will be shrugged instead.
"She's a hell-raiser, star-chaser, trailblazer, natural born raver yeah!!"
The council should be made to declare how much tax payers money is being spent subsidising this project every month.
Maybe Mr Smith and his cronies should have listened to the "real" experts in this field instead of the salesmen before proceeding down this route.
Rumour has it he is now focusing all his efforts on developing time travel !!!:lol:
The figure given was 250,000 more litres consumed by the distillery per year to help fuel the Community Heat Scheme .
Latest from Newsbot
http://www.caithness-business.co.uk/article.php?id=1137
The figure given was 250,000 more litres consumed by the distillery per year to help fuel the Community Heat Scheme .
Just wondering, how many houses does the scheme provide heat for?:confused
Just wondering, how many houses does the scheme provide heat for?:confused
Julia's link says 247. Ironic really, as it was supposed to be 24/7 heating!
Pretty pathetic eh? No doubt some wizard mathematician can tell us how much was spent bringing heat to those houses, how much the scheme took in in payment, and how much this White Elephant cost the tax payer.
I love this term "Commitment" in the context of this balls up.
It amounts to:-
"We had no idea whether this scheme was any good. We took the word of "experts". We were worried it wasn't working, but were too arrogant to admit it. We will press forward in order to save face/prove a point. We will provide "cheap" heat to a handful of homes, by using other people's taxes"
May I remind readers that funding for a second gasifier was agreed, before the first gasifier even burnt a fart for energy, let alone a wood chip.
Q) How much Fuel could a woodchip chip, if a woodchip could chip Fuel?
A) The answer my friend, is blowing out of someone's anus!!
Press forward with Wind Power, it is the most abundant resource Caithness possesses. We used to be "Full of Wind and Fish" but the fish have gone.
OK, so every household which is on the scheme is using ~1000 litres of oil per year.
How does this oil useage compare to those who are using stand-alone oil heating systems?:~(
EDIT, I've just looked through old threads about oil heating and 1000 litres per year seems to be quite an efficient fuel consumption for heating a house. So perhaps that is a good indicator that the distribution sytem of ChaP is working quite efficiently (so CO2 is being reduced), just not the burning wood bit.
This is a very good point you make here - cuts through the emotive aspect and reasons with some facts.
However, I'm not sure that 1000 litres of oil x 247 houses would equal £19m. If it does, I'm off to buy a tanker.
Yes, it is a bit steep, £76,000 per household. Perhaps, the taxpayer could have retro-installed ground-source heating for 1250 households for the same cost. At least they tried. By comparison, if the council wanted to spend the same amount of taxpayer's money on building a large windfarm, then it would be able to provide enough energy for the whole of Wick including businesses. And what's more, the revenue would be ploughed into the council for the benefit of everyone local.
This is a very good point you make here - cuts through the emotive aspect and reasons with some facts.
However, I'm not sure that 1000 litres of oil x 247 houses would equal £19m. If it does, I'm off to buy a tanker.
Where do you get the £19m from ?
Those who setup the company in the first place should be called to task for this fiasco rather than just letting the Council take it over and the tax-payer foot the bills.
Do you think they would have so readily handed the reins to the council if it had been a success and profits were lining their pockets? No.
Also, for how long will the Council continue to subsidise the fuel bills? Forever? The house owners pay next to nothing for their heating. I know it's not their fault, but it's not mind either and why should my Council Tax be used heating their homes?
HELP NEEDED.
I'm looking for a contact number for the guy who got the contract to supply woodfuel to CHaP ..or other folk who were involved in the project and lost out though its collapse..thanks
Those who setup the company in the first place should be called to task for this fiasco rather than just letting the Council take it over and the tax-payer foot the bills.
Do you think they would have so readily handed the reins to the council if it had been a success and profits were lining their pockets? No.
Also, for how long will the Council continue to subsidise the fuel bills? Forever? The house owners pay next to nothing for their heating. I know it's not their fault, but it's not mind either and why should my Council Tax be used heating their homes?
Maybe as part of their 'independent' enquiry the council will look at the need for houses to be completely replumbed. Should this really have been required then a sensible project roll-out of the technology should have been conducted. Not only is this project technically inadequate, the risk of employing pioneering technology should have been offset with a timely implementation of the scheme i.e don't dig up half of Pulteney before you know it can work.
Also, a full review of contractors and sub-contractors should be conducted because there is more than one conflict of interest on this project. For instance, for someone living in Pulteney wishing to object to this scheme should take issues to their councillor, oh, I forgot they're up to their necks in this project already!! Not forgetting we shouldn't hope for too much from this site as it is run by a councillor and anonimity is not guaranteed ...
I'm tired of Wick been sold down the swanny by incompetent nepotism....
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