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landmarker
31-Jan-06, 18:12
You might have heard about the Islamic world's row with Denmark.

Cartoon characters, depicting Allah with a bomb for a 'turban' have deeply offended muslims worldwide, after being published in a Danish magazine.

Danish goods are being boycotted all over the Arab world. Arla foods, the biggest exporter in Denmark say they will have to 'sack' two hundred workers.

The magazine editors have apologised, but the Danish government will not condemn them in any way, saying 'this is not how democracy works.'On balance I agree with them.

Death threats have been made to two of the cartoonists. A radio phone-in on BBC Radio 5 today featured many followers of Islam who were deeply upset at this development. Some seemed almost mortally offended, saying Mohhammed is the 'perfrect creation' and should not be mocked in any way.
Some were stinging about 'western society is crumbling and lampooning religion in this way is part of the reason'

Personally I think any world religion has to be big enough to take the odd criticism or even lampooning. How many times has Christianity suffered the same fate? Islam is struggling to find a place in a modern world I feel, as it's teachings seemed to have changed little since the middle ages, or even earlier.

This was fine when followers lived largely in their own heartlands. Now they are juxtapositioned alongside all the other religions and of course, all those who are agnostic or atheist. Or those to whom religion is less than a cornerstone in their lives, more a peripheral crutch.

I never really took much notice of Islam until about ten years ago when mosques started to spring up all over urban England. The negativity since, with terrorist attacks and suicide bombers has done little to improve the image of a religion, which I think must be essentially good at its core.

Should religious zealots, or even mere believers retain a sense of humour? I dunno. Many people brought up as Christians tell jokes about God, and Jesus yet the rest seem to shrug it off.

While not trying to play Devil's advocate here I do believe that part of this is about respect. Maybe some institutions deserve total respect. Perhaps an erosion of respect for religion was what started the erosion of respect generally in society.

On balance though can free thinking democracies kow-tow to absolute ideas about religion being beyond reproach and beyond criticism?

Interesting developments on the day the British parliament debates the 'incitement to religious hatred' bill.

Saveman
31-Jan-06, 18:14
...light the blue touch paper then retire to a safe distance.....

rich62_uk
31-Jan-06, 18:28
...light the blue touch paper then retire to a safe distance.....
Move over Savey, hey do we have the front seats ? :lol: ....Trish.

Saveman
31-Jan-06, 18:28
On a serious note.....followers of the Islam faith take it very, very seriously. For them there is no room for poking fun at god or at their worship.
So the question is....do we abide by their wishes? Or do we annoy them on purpose in the name of "free speech" or comedy value?
At the minute is an individual decision, might not be for long though.

Rheghead
31-Jan-06, 18:31
Danish goods are being boycotted all over the Arab world.

There is no chance of them meeting their Kyoto targets then...[disgust] or us for that matter, should we lighten up?

gleeber
31-Jan-06, 18:38
Good post landmarker and whilst I agree with the essence of your post I am just as concerned about the rise of the right wing fundamental Christians in the Western world.
My problem with a religion that has an outside supernatural being as its leader is that ultimateltly the devotee is not responsible for their actions because everything they do is part of their Gods plan for the world.
Whether its suicide bombing or murdering an abortion doctor its Gods will. Big problem!

Gleber2
31-Jan-06, 20:04
In a previous post I suggested that we,as a race,are heading for a major war and that it was not very far in the future.All that has happened in the last few weeks with Iran,Israel,Palestine,Indonesia,Nepal and all would indicate that the war will be primarily fought on religious grounds. I do not think that the Jews or the Muslims are capable of backing down and ask Mr.S Rushtie about the lenght of time the Fundamentalist Muslim can hold a grudge.
Aye,Landmarker,how can you respect a religion that will lash you and imprison you because your beard is too short. No humour can exist in a religion that cannot accept criticism in any form.

landmarker
31-Jan-06, 20:35
Aye,Landmarker,how can you respect a religion that will lash you and imprison you because your beard is too short. No humour can exist in a religion that cannot accept criticism in any form.

I really want to believe that the people who take Islam to these extremes are fundamentalist zealots, and not representative of the mainstream.

I'm not sure I can though.

I think war, is possibly inevitable in the long term. A clash of civilisations?
It will not be the first war to be sparked by religion will it?

Does your reference to war include the possibility of a 'civil-war' here in these islands?

To return to the main thrust of the thread I do feel that any religion has to be secure enough in itself to withstand ridicule and absorb criticism from non-believers. Anything else is to impose such a rigidity of dogma, and unswerving adherence that eventually it might all implode from within eventually. Otherwise the simple, the faithful and the loyal believers follow slavishly the holy trail to a glorious grave.

All religions I know are based upon 'jam tomorrow'

I am rather fearful of a growing Islamic movement in Britain. It is ill at ease with our culture, such as it is.

It may well end in tears one distant day.

Gleber2
31-Jan-06, 21:55
Civil war in these Islands??Not a new idea.From Cromwell to Ireland now, the fight has never really stopped.Jam tomorrow when you die killing infidels is one thing we don't have in Christian belief.Jam tomorrow if you lead a good and virtuous life is what we've been taught. These religions began to break up as soon as they were started and I do believe that implosion is more likely than explosion.
End in tears it will and I am as afraid as you are as the numbers mount on each side of the line.Perhaps the tears are not so distant.

landmarker
31-Jan-06, 22:54
End in tears it will and I am as afraid as you are as the numbers mount on each side of the line.Perhaps the tears are not so distant.

Should the 'infidel' not prevail I'd wager every single vestige of Christianity would be erased from these islands. Churches which have stood since Saxon and Norman times would be sacked.

This may sound like doom-mongering but one doesn't need to have too vivid an imagination to see it all unfolding.

I hope I'm wrong. I've been wrong before.

Anyway I'm off to bed to watch 'Early Doors' - I could do with a laugh !!

wickerinca
31-Jan-06, 23:09
[quote=landmarker]Should the 'infidel' not prevail I'd wager every single vestige of Christianity would be erased from these islands. Churches which have stood since Saxon and Norman times would be sacked.

This may sound like doom-mongering but one doesn't need to have too vivid an imagination to see it all unfolding.

Oh! great stuff Landmarker. Off you go to bed and I still have about 7 or 8 hours to worry about the civil unrest in the world...and about religion and all of the idiots and warmongers that are involved in the organised religions of today. There has been more harm done in the name of religion than for any other reason...though reason may not be the right word to use as you can't reason with some of these maniacs, no matter which religion they adhere to. When I think of religion I think of the attempted genocides of the Jews, the Tutus, the Kurds, 9/11 when I sat and cried all day for everyone killed. Yes! even the hi-jackers because it is not "normal"...I don't know the word that I want to use. I was going to try and be rational about this whole issue but I need to go and have my dinner now....with maybe a fruit or two!!...and just to cap it all the heavy snowfall has started !!! Great!!!...where is the corkscrew and the candles.....for when the power goes!! Hrmmmmph again (Please make a smiley for this!!)

Whitewater
31-Jan-06, 23:20
The extremists in all religions cause problems, it was not so long ago that the Christians were burning people at the stake if they dared to question the Church of Rome on any of the doctrines it was busy spreading. Religious zelots always cause trouble and hatred wherever they go and whoever they are. The Muslims are no different, they, as well as the Christians all claim to be followers of the one true God.

I think that any religion that teaches hatred and intolerance to others is an obscenity. All religions claim to have the basic belief of loving one another but as soon as their beliefs are questioned or put to the test they show their true colours. I beleive that all religions were set up by the control freaks of the time so that the masses could be controlled for the profit of the Church (read racketeers) whether it be Christian or Islamic.

Oddquine
31-Jan-06, 23:31
You might have heard about the Islamic world's row with Denmark.

Cartoon characters, depicting Allah with a bomb for a 'turban' have deeply offended muslims worldwide, after being published in a Danish magazine.

I guess if you were a member of a religion which was being bad-mouthed all over the world because of the antics of a minority of fanatics, you'd be a bit peeved when cartoons, which even the non-interested in world affairs would read, continue to perpetuate the myth that Muslim=terrorist.

The odd criticism is one thing..but it appears to be going well past that nowadays.

In my opinion, if we keep on assuming Muslim=terrorist and react accordingly, we likely will have blood in the streets...as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

As is always the case, the minority gives the majority a bad name.

wickerinca
31-Jan-06, 23:32
Right there with you Whitewater!!

Oddquine
31-Jan-06, 23:44
The extremists in all religions cause problems, it was not so long ago that the Christians were burning people at the stake if they dared to question the Church of Rome on any of the doctrines it was busy spreading. Religious zelots always cause trouble and hatred wherever they go and whoever they are. The Muslims are no different, they, as well as the Christians all claim to be followers of the one true God.

I think that any religion that teaches hatred and intolerance to others is an obscenity. All religions claim to have the basic belief of loving one another but as soon as their beliefs are questioned or put to the test they show their true colours. I beleive that all religions were set up by the control freaks of the time so that the masses could be controlled for the profit of the Church (read racketeers) whether it be Christian or Islamic.

I tend to agree with that, Whitewater, though I'm inclined to think that the founders of the early religions did it from conviction.

Ever since Constantine showed how to fabricate a world-wide religion by combining a number of disparate writings, it has become a sure-fire way of coining cash and controlling minds.

But the biggest problems, imo, have come from the fragmenting of nearly every religion into off-shoots and wings, which are certainly a result of control freakery........aimed at the core religion itself.

garycs
01-Feb-06, 00:06
But the biggest problems, imo, have come from the fragmenting of nearly every religion into off-shoots and wings, which are certainly a result of control freakery........aimed at the core religion itself.

I think this quote from Emo Phillips sums up the state of fragmented religion ;-)

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. so I ran over and said "stop! don't do it!"
"Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said,"Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are you christian or buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you catholic or protestant?" He said, "Protestant."I said, "Me too! Are you episcopalian or baptist?" He said, "Baptist!" I said, "Wow! Me too! Are you baptist church of god or baptist church of the lord?" He said, "Baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too! Are you original baptist church of god, or are you reformed baptist church of god?" He said, "Reformed baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too! Are you reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed baptist church of god,reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum", and pushed him off.

JAWS
01-Feb-06, 00:34
Garycs, that's a cracker. It really does appeal to my evil sense of humour!
Unfortunately I sounds all to realistic.

Rheghead
01-Feb-06, 01:11
Anyway I'm off to bed to watch 'Early Doors' - I could do with a laugh !!

I love that show, it relies heavily on irony in its humour. We both should take note of that.[smirk] Tick Tock!!:p Crime can't crack itself!

landmarker
01-Feb-06, 20:20
I love that show, it relies heavily on irony in its humour. We both should take note of that.[smirk] Tick Tock!!:p Crime can't crack itself!

It also relies heavily on gormless Mancunians. I have not laughed so much for ages. Our son bought us the boxed two series set for Christmas. A masterstroke.

Whitewater was spot on. Garycs too. Good thread. Goodresponses. Sleep easy Wickerinca, Canada & Caithness will be amongst the last to go.

A French newspaper has reprinted the cartoons on the front page today 'La Francoise' added the banner headline 'We have a right to caricature God'

Bound to settle things down on those bleak housing estates north of Paris, eh?

wickerinca
01-Feb-06, 20:34
Really good thread with great responses! These religious zealots of all creeds frighten the life out of me...and I don't frighten easily:lol: ..but there is just no dealing with them.

landmarker
01-Feb-06, 20:42
Really good thread with great responses! These religious zealots of all creeds frighten the life out of me...and I don't frighten easily:lol: ..but there is just no dealing with them.

I think they frighten us all. At least the ones amongst us who think about things like these.

Religious zealots were not on my radar until I was well into my forties. I celebrate that fact . Now, they are here, amongst us and preachingto those who will listen, and they are also here in numbers.

The politicians will need to be extremely clever* to handle it. It will mean sucking up to them, bending over backwards to appease them. They are doing it already. At least last nights Westminster vote was a blow for a semblance of common sense.

* not exactly a trait, is it?

wickerinca
01-Feb-06, 21:11
I know what you mean about not being interested in them before....maybe interested isn't the right word.:confused They and their bigotry had never touched my life before.. I suppose it wasn't until one of my cousins who was in the Army was sent to Northern Ireland. I paid more attention to the news then and listening to Ian Paisley and his Catholic counterparts spouting all their venomous bile was a major shock to me!! And now with these Islamic jihads...what are we to do? Where does it end? Watching Bin Laden gives me the same sick feeling as watching Hitler clips!! I am thinking about turning Buddhist and moving to a small croft in Caithness. I'll have no tv, internet nor even nespapers delivered and will live my life in glorious ignorance..........Sigh!! Wouldn't that be wonderful!!!!:D

landmarker
01-Feb-06, 22:20
I know what you mean about not being interested in them before....maybe interested isn't the right word.:confused They and their bigotry had never touched my life before.. I suppose it wasn't until one of my cousins who was in the Army was sent to Northern Ireland. I paid more attention to the news then and listening to Ian Paisley and his Catholic counterparts spouting all their venomous bile was a major shock to me!! And now with these Islamic jihads...what are we to do? Where does it end? Watching Bin Laden gives me the same sick feeling as watching Hitler clips!! I am thinking about turning Buddhist and moving to a small croft in Caithness. I'll have no tv, internet nor even nespapers delivered and will live my life in glorious ignorance..........Sigh!! Wouldn't that be wonderful!!!!:D

It probably would be , yes. I listen to far too much current affairs and misery
on the airwaves. Don't ditch the net though because I for one would miss your input.

I think the Irish protagonists, though bigoted and defined by religion were/are moved by a passion for a cause and they had an 'end game' (I'm talking I.R.A. here) they had/have a strategy and a goal. The problem with Bin Laden and his followers is they just want to destroy the west and everything it stands for. Often killing themselve sin the process. How do we deal with people like that?

wickerinca
01-Feb-06, 22:38
I don't know!! It is like the American Culture thing. By that I mean.....I don't know what to do about it either. Both of my sons are intelligent, polite, caring and well adjusted young men who work hard for their livings although neither of them are total angels!!! (They did deserve and get the odd smack when they were wee!!).....and for that I am and will be eternally thankful. But what about the parents of these young men who are told about the wonderful afterlife they will have if they go and blow themselves, and whoever happens to be near them, to smithereens!! How do you cope with that? What do we do with the youth that are snagged by these monsters who poison their minds against the countries that we live in?

I travel a fair bit and I do have to admit to a certain amount of extra alertness when in Heathrow or any of the American airports. Have to say that I do feel quite safe here as Canada is the Caithness of North America!:lol: :lol:

garycs
01-Feb-06, 22:45
To me the most interesting aspect of this thread is that it started about Islamic fundamentalists but was unanimously broadened to include all religious fundamentalists. This would seem to imply that what the majority of folk really can't abide is a lack of tolerance?

wickerinca
01-Feb-06, 22:57
To me the most interesting aspect of this thread is that it started about Islamic fundamentalists but was unanimously broadened to include all religious fundamentalists. This would seem to imply that what the majority of folk really can't abide is a lack of tolerance?

Went back and read the whole thread and you are right garycs!! I would have to agree with you about the lack of tolerance issue! That is what irritates me most. I have been to moslem countries living and I didn't tell them to stop the calls to prayers because it woke me up. I don't really care what religion, colour, sexual orientation another person is as long as they are basically a good person..........have to stop here as I haven't thought through what I went to end up saying!!:D

garycs
01-Feb-06, 23:16
Went back and read the whole thread and you are right garycs!! I would have to agree with you about the lack of tolerance issue! That is what irritates me most. I have been to moslem countries living and I didn't tell them to stop the calls to prayers because it woke me up. I don't really care what religion, colour, sexual orientation another person is as long as they are basically a good person..........have to stop here as I haven't thought through what I went to end up saying!!:D

I agree, and totally understand what you haven't put into words!! A feeling of frustration at how a minority of folk can upset the balance in what is, to a honest, a pretty amazing world?

wickerinca
01-Feb-06, 23:24
I agree, and totally understand what you haven't put into words!! A feeling of frustration at how a minority of folk can upset the balance in what is, to a honest, a pretty amazing world?

Frustration, fear and outrage I suppose, are my main feelings. It makes me very sad to think of it all:~( I going to get on my bike and do my 50 mins of self-inflicted agony now as it is the only way I can stop these really bad thoughts I have towards the guy with the hooks and others of his ilk.

Gleber2
03-Feb-06, 02:27
And now the outrage about the cartoons has spread across more and more of Europe as the proud Christian nations defy the Muslim complainers and print and be darned. Red flags being waved at One million plus Muslims in France.Could be nasty.And all for the right of free speech.More than the Muslims need to lighten up!!!

JAWS
03-Feb-06, 03:17
And now the outrage about the cartoons has spread across more and more of Europe as the proud Christian nations defy the Muslim complainers and print and be darned. Red flags being waved at One million plus Muslims in France.Could be nasty.And all for the right of free speech.More than the Muslims need to lighten up!!!
I don't remember anybody in France besieging any of the Embasies of Muslim Countries and threatening to blow them up if they didn't get an apology.
Nobody took any notice of Christians complaining over "The Life of Brian".
Did anybody start hand-wringing and offering apologies? Certainly not.
Has anybody done or said anything to stop the publishing of the Da Vinci Code after the Pope complained about it's contents.
Not on your life they didn't but I'm sure many Christians find both of those extremely insulting to their beliefs so why have they been ignored?

Gleber2
03-Feb-06, 04:04
If your last post was in reply to mine, I fail to see the thrust of your statements.I was merely posting an update without really offering a conclusion or an arguement.Perhaps the thread heading should be changed to read 'Does Islam,all other religions and Jaws, need to lighten up'.:lol:
Christians don't have a rule about representing the Deity in art.The Muslims do, to a fanatical extent,and, in my opinion,in the face of the present global tension,effort should be made to avoid rubbing salt in the wounds.

wickerinca
03-Feb-06, 05:21
Isn't there something in the Bible about not making images of God or something like that? Sorry but not a subject I am familiar with...just a vague recollection from Bunny's class in High School!!

rich62_uk
03-Feb-06, 07:33
Christians don't have a rule about representing the Deity in art.The Muslims do, to a fanatical extent,and, in my opinion,in the face of the present global tension,effort should be made to avoid rubbing salt in the wounds.

So do Christians in the Ten Commandments "thou shalt not have any graven images of the lord your God" and there are many Christians who's faith is just as strong as any Muslim. Every time they here the word OMG they cringe as it is another commandment "thou shalt not take the Lord thou Gods name in vain". So do we ask all Muslims not to blaspheme or we will expect at best for you to lose your job and at worst kill you ? Of course not, Christians live in the world and cannot impose their faith or belief on that world. Neither can Muslims. It is nothing short of blackmail....Trish

scotsboy
03-Feb-06, 09:55
I seem to recall the USA did not like the French stance to the action against Iraq which was required to remove their Weapons of Mass Destruction (sic) - didn't they rename French Fries, Freedom Fries.
Free speech does not seem all that important to the West either.........well not if that speeach comes from Al Jazeera.

squidge
03-Feb-06, 10:36
Free Speech comes with responsibility and respect - if you know something is likely to cause offence then unless you have a very good reason to publish it - like its "proper" news - then you should think twice.

What do i mean - well I work in my office with a lovely lovely girl who is the daughter of a minister and the wife of a minister. She explained to us all very early on that she doesnt like swearing. i myself can swear with the best of them and could assert that its my right - my freedom to swear whenever i want. I dont do that. Because i know that it will upset my colleague i rarely say the mildest swear word around her. In addition some of the funnies that are circulated are a little "sexual" in nature and she wouldnt like that either - so i dont send her them. I dont expect that she will find the same things funny as i do and i know that somethings will absolutely offend her so i dont do or say them. Its about respect.

I have known a muslim gentlemen who lived in copenhagan. He was keen to move to the UK and one of the reasons he cited for this was that DEnmark is not a very diverse or tolerent society. He felt very isolated I beleive and found Danish society to be quite prejudiced. He had lived there for many years and was working and he had both studied and worked in the USA, he was clever and handsome. however I dont know much about Denmark to know if this is true

Saveman
03-Feb-06, 11:15
Why do something to deliberately antagonize people who are willing to kill for their beliefs? Doesn't make a lot of sense, unless there is a "fifth column" who want a war.

Gleber2
03-Feb-06, 13:54
The Bible states that we should have no graven images of God but Christians worship a carving of a cross wi a deid mannie on it.Their particular brand of hypocrosy(sp) allows them to bend their own rules as they see fit.The Muslims obey the word of their religion and their convictions should be respected.We are not talking about free speech here.We should be talking about respecting the strongly held beliefs of an awful lot of potentially violent people world wide.

unicorn
03-Feb-06, 14:16
I saw the poll on sky news about whether or not it should be shown in the press here and it made me angry because it had obviously caused so much offence worldwide yet here are sky news stirring the pot!! It is a total lack of respect for other peoples beliefs and I dont think it is either smart, nice or funny it all reminds me pure and simply of bullying and if I was a muslim I too would be upset with it. It started off with a cartoon and it now seems to have opened the door for the world to laugh at all muslims and I just feel that it is morally wrong.

DW
03-Feb-06, 14:25
The only reason there is all this 'concern' for the feelings of Muslims is that they might come round your gaff and blow you up.

Why should we pussyfoot round them and not every other belief system?

Poeple regularly poke fun at 'wee frees', 'tims' 'huns' etc etc and I am fed up with all the folk on this thread who try to make themselves appear like a cross between Mother Theresa and Albert Schweizer.

Tolerance works both ways.[evil]
Personally, I can't tolerate anything.

scotsboy
03-Feb-06, 14:29
The Bible states that we should have no graven images of God but Christians worship a carving of a cross wi a deid mannie on it.

Not all Christians.

rich62_uk
03-Feb-06, 14:47
The Bible states that we should have no graven images of God but Christians worship a carving of a cross wi a deid mannie on it.Their particular brand of hypocrosy(sp) allows them to bend their own rules as they see fit.The Muslims obey the word of their religion and their convictions should be respected.We are not talking about free speech here.We should be talking about respecting the strongly held beliefs of an awful lot of potentially violent people world wide.

It depends on which branch of "Christianity", the Christians who follow the 1689 confession of faith will not have any graven images of God, some Christians will not allow any images of anything that God has created (that includes children's cartoons), some Muslims will eat ham others will only ever eat halal meat, some Jews will eat pork while others remain strictly kosher and and go as far as never eating ice cream withing 24 hours of cutting their nails, some Muslim woman refuse to cover the hair on their heads or cover their legs, some Christians smoke and hardly ever attend church. I could go on for quite a while, but you see every religious fraction has people who will bend the rules to suit themselves.
Are we to accommodate them all ? Where do we draw the line ? As each of the above groups and many others find one thing or another offensive, or is it to be only the ones who threaten us, when do we make a stand ? Or dont we ? ....Trish.

Whitewater
03-Feb-06, 16:16
Religions will always bend the rules to suit their own particular needs. The true tenets of life are to love and respect one another and don't to unto others that which you would not like to have done to you. Simple really, but all religions make it so hard to understand these simple basics.

scorrie
03-Feb-06, 16:47
I think the whole World could do with lightening up. I don't think many of us are very tolerant.

If you picture an Englishman running down Scotland in any way in a Glasgow pub of an evening and it is not hard to imagine the guy spitting teeth shortly afterwards!!

The UK Christian gets as upset as any religious group. I remember the furore over The Last Temptation of Christ and some Minister giving it big licks about Blasphemy, before revealing that he had not actually seen the film!!

The difference with the UK zealot is that they are more likely to express their disgust in a "stiff" letter to the Daily Mail, rather than crying for people to be strung up.

As far as I can tell, the offensive cartoons currently causing the upset are not an attack on the religion in itself. It would appear to be a satirical take on the fact that the religion states one thing and the terrorists carry out acts that go against the teachings, supposedly in the name of their God. That double standard is the target for the satire, rather than the people who carry out their worship in a peaceful and dignified manner.

In my opinion making fun of religion simply for the sake of upsetting the followers is not really justified. However, I believe that there is room for Dark Humour in this world and religion throws up a rich source of material, due to its many absurdities. If we were to stop every joke because it might offend someone then there would be little scope in the world for having a laugh. If more people were able to laugh at themselves, in the way they enjoyed a laugh at others, then it would be a more tolerant and better world. After all, if God is the Almighty entity then surely they have a sense of humour? Sadly, it seems many of the followers do not.

scotsboy
03-Feb-06, 16:50
I hear those bastions of the freedom of speech, the News of the World are about to unleash some more "must know" information on Sunday - seemingly they are going to "out" Sol Campbell. They really are pathetic.

MadPict
03-Feb-06, 16:56
YES.


God, in whatever form, does not exist. So how can any depiction of a non existent entity be blasphemy?.........

What's he going to do - smite us?

rich62_uk
03-Feb-06, 16:58
I think the whole World could do with lightening up. I don't think many of us are very tolerant.

If you picture an Englishman running down Scotland in any way in a Glasgow pub of an evening and it is not hard to imagine the guy spitting teeth shortly afterwards!!

The UK Christian gets as upset as any religious group. I remember the furore over The Last Temptation of Christ and some Minister giving it big licks about Blasphemy, before revealing that he had not actually seen the film!!

The difference with the UK zealot is that they are more likely to express their disgust in a "stiff" letter to the Daily Mail, rather than crying for people to be strung up.

As far as I can tell, the offensive cartoons currently causing the upset are not an attack on the religion in itself. It would appear to be a satirical take on the fact that the religion states one thing and the terrorists carry out acts that go against the teachings, supposedly in the name of their God. That double standard is the target for the satire, rather than the people who carry out their worship in a peaceful and dignified manner.

In my opinion making fun of religion simply for the sake of upsetting the followers is not really justified. However, I believe that there is room for Dark Humour in this world and religion throws up a rich source of material, due to its many absurdities. If we were to stop every joke because it might offend someone then there would be little scope in the world for having a laugh. If more people were able to laugh at themselves, in the way they enjoyed a laugh at others, then it would be a more tolerant and better world. After all, if God is the Almighty entity then surely they have a sense of humour? Sadly, it seems many of the followers do not.

Oh Scorrie you have put into words something my simple brain couldn't, thank you...... and no jokes about me being simple
please [disgust]

scotsboy
03-Feb-06, 16:59
It was Mohammed that was the subject of the cartoon and not Allah. Mohammed was a man and did exist.

MadPict
03-Feb-06, 17:20
In that part of my post I was replying to a previous post about "graven images" - The "YES" was in reply to the original question.

He existed but he was visited by an "angel" and told that "God" had chosen him to be his messenger to all mankind?

Hmmm............didn't David Ike have a similar message from the spirit world?....

Rheghead
03-Feb-06, 17:42
The Bible states that we should have no graven images of God.

Hmm, It is surprising that the Pope att approved of Michaelangelo's 'Creation of Adam' if that is the case...

Anyway, Muslim leaders would have gained credibility twice in as many weeks if they had taken part in the holocaust observation and had rallied a day of tolerance instead of anger in reaction to the cartoons.

If muslims believe so strongly in something so powerful then what does it matter if a nonbeliever publishes a satirical image of Muhammed?:roll: I was heartened to hear that British muslims were encouraged by their leaders to rise above the furore though.

I think the other more radical type should get a life...

wickerinca
03-Feb-06, 17:57
I think the whole World could do with lightening up. I don't think many of us are very tolerant.

If you picture an Englishman running down Scotland in any way in a Glasgow pub of an evening and it is not hard to imagine the guy spitting teeth shortly afterwards!!

The UK Christian gets as upset as any religious group. I remember the furore over The Last Temptation of Christ and some Minister giving it big licks about Blasphemy, before revealing that he had not actually seen the film!!

The difference with the UK zealot is that they are more likely to express their disgust in a "stiff" letter to the Daily Mail, rather than crying for people to be strung up.

As far as I can tell, the offensive cartoons currently causing the upset are not an attack on the religion in itself. It would appear to be a satirical take on the fact that the religion states one thing and the terrorists carry out acts that go against the teachings, supposedly in the name of their God. That double standard is the target for the satire, rather than the people who carry out their worship in a peaceful and dignified manner.

In my opinion making fun of religion simply for the sake of upsetting the followers is not really justified. However, I believe that there is room for Dark Humour in this world and religion throws up a rich source of material, due to its many absurdities. If we were to stop every joke because it might offend someone then there would be little scope in the world for having a laugh. If more people were able to laugh at themselves, in the way they enjoyed a laugh at others, then it would be a more tolerant and better world. After all, if God is the Almighty entity then surely they have a sense of humour? Sadly, it seems many of the followers do not.

Well said Scorrie......I am with the other simpleton:lol: Thanks for voicing my thoughts.

scorrie
03-Feb-06, 18:12
It was Mohammed that was the subject of the cartoon and not Allah. Mohammed was a man and did exist.

All the more reason to lighten up then. Jesus also existed but he could take the crack over a pie and a pint with the best of them ;o)

DrSzin
03-Feb-06, 18:14
All the more reason to lighten up then. Jesus also existed but he could take the crack over a pie and a pint with the best of them ;o)Aye, but look what happened to him. ;)

wickerinca
03-Feb-06, 18:15
Aye, but look what happened to him. ;)

You just never know who is listening;)

JAWS
03-Feb-06, 18:31
The Bible states that we should have no graven images of God but Christians worship a carving of a cross wi a deid mannie on it.Their particular brand of hypocrosy(sp) allows them to bend their own rules as they see fit.The Muslims obey the word of their religion and their convictions should be respected.We are not talking about free speech here.We should be talking about respecting the strongly held beliefs of an awful lot of potentially violent people world wide.
I rather think that the Bible teaches that when God gave Moses the Ten Commandments the Second Commandment read, "Thou shalt not make unto thyself any graven image, thou shalt not bow down and worship them." When Moses returned from Mount Ararat he found that the Children of Israel had made a statue of a Golden Calf and were worshiping that.
The sins they committed were against both the First ("Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.") and the Second Commandment not because they made an image but that they were treating it as a god and that they were worshiping it.
It was the act of worship and the Children of Israel's licentious behaviour in doing that which was considered sinful, not the Golden Calf in itself.
It was later Religious interpretations which created the idea that Images were forbidden.

If the reason given by Muslims for objecting to images of Mohammed are true, that the are to prevent 'Idolatry' then they must have little trust in Believers. Do they really think that a true Believer would break the strict teaching of the Koran not to worship images by worshiping an image of Mohammed?
What little faith they must have!

By their very actions and complaints they are trying to impose their Religious Beliefs on me and therefore interfering with my beliefs and that I find most offensive and intolerant.

By the way, I have no intention of issuing any death threats, blow up any buildings or threaten to do so if I do not get an apology within any time frame.
Nor will I demand the sacking or resignation of any Editor or Politician furthering their aim to insult my beliefs!

I would perhaps have a little more sympathy with their complaints if they were as keen on a strict following of the Sixth and Tenth Commandments instead of cherry-picking the ones they find convenient to use to browbeat others.
(I notice they are not so concerned about ‘images’ when it comes to furthering the aims of Terrorism which in itself offends and insults my Beliefs.)

JAWS
03-Feb-06, 18:56
I seem to recall the USA did not like the French stance to the action against Iraq which was required to remove their Weapons of Mass Destruction (sic) - didn't they rename French Fries, Freedom Fries.
Free speech does not seem all that important to the West either.........well not if that speeach comes from Al Jazeera.
The US may not have liked France's stand on Iraq and neither did our Government but I do not recall anybody threatening France with Terrorism if they didn't shut up or apologise immediately.
So the US changed the name of Chips, (I too refuse to call them 'French Fries' and that was before Saddam Hussein committed his first murder let alone became leader of Iraq) from French Fries to Freedom Fries, fine, was that some sort of embargo to bring France into line?
Free Speech and Al Jazeera? Have they been stopped from transmitting? Have they been censored? If they have then the rest of the World didn't notice. In what way has their Freedom of Speech been prevented? Haven't they put a couple of videos out during the last week provided by Terrorists?

wickerinca
03-Feb-06, 19:10
Yep...........seen those videos!! You can actually watch Al Jazeera news broadcasts direct from the horses mouth, here. Unless, of course, it is the CIA in disguise:confused :evil :grin:

MadPict
03-Feb-06, 20:11
The BBC News website looks at why the depictions have caused such offence.

What does the Koran, the holy book of Islam, say on the issue?

There is no specific, or explicit ban on images of Allah or the Prophet Muhammad - be they carved, painted or drawn.

However, chapter 42, verse 11 of the Koran does say: "[Allah is] the originator of the heavens and the earth... [there is] nothing like a likeness of Him."

This is taken by Muslims to mean that Allah cannot be captured in an image by human hand, such is his beauty and grandeur. To attempt such a thing is seen as an insult to Allah.

The same is believed to apply to Muhammad.

Chapter 21, verses 52-54 of the Koran read: "[Abraham] said to his father and his people: 'What are these images to whose worship you cleave?' They said: 'We found our fathers worshipping them.' He said: 'Certainly you have been, you and your fathers, in manifest error.'"

From this arises the Muslim belief that images can give rise to idolatry - that is to say an image, rather than the divine being it symbolises, can become the object of worship and veneration.

What does Islamic tradition say on the matter?

Islamic tradition or Hadith, the stories of the words and actions of Muhammad and his Companions, explicitly prohibits images of Allah, Muhammad and all the major prophets of the Christian and Jewish traditions.

More widely, Islamic tradition has discouraged the figurative depiction of living creatures, especially human beings. Islamic art has therefore tended to be abstract or decorative.

JAWS
03-Feb-06, 21:07
MadPict, once again the important part about the images are being ignored, "to whose worship you cleave?" and "We found our fathers worshipping them."

It is the act of worshiping them that Abraham is objecting to, the same Abraham of the Jews and the Christians also, but who read and interpret the same teachings in a different manner.

"There is but one God and Mohammed is his Prophet". I'm not sure of the exact wording but the meaning is correct.
The "One God" part sounds awfully familiar.
Are Muslims then suggesting that there are many "One God"s or do they accept that Muslims, Jews and Christians are all "Children of the Book" and they don't all have separate "One God"s but in fact all have the same "One God", the God of Abraham?

If that is so, and they believe that the "One God" and his Prophets should never be depicted, then why are they 'horrified' by a cartoon of Mohammed yet not 'horrified' by images of Jesus in countless paintings, quite apart from Crucifixes churches.

Why are they not demanding an apology from the Pope for the "Image" of the "One God", their "One God" as well remember, blatantly displayed on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. Should that not also be just as disgraceful to them as a cartoon in a paper?

The Muslims believe Jesus was a Prophet of God, the Jews believe he was a great Rabbi and the Christians believe He is the manifestation of the teachings of the Prophets of the Old Testament in the form of the Son of God.
All revere him in one form or other as an important Religious Figure, so who has claim as to how He is portrayed of not portrayed as the case may be.

The current issue has even been depicted as being the case that Muslim Beliefs are being attacked from all sides and must be fought against.
All the fuss, complaining, threats and hatred displayed over the cartoons is just another manifestation of "The Enemy at the Gates" syndrome used by so many demagogues to maintain a grip on people’s loyalty.

And I find it a blasphemy that they actually give a name to the “One God” because His actual Name should never be spoken or written in any way!
That is a Blasphemy they should apologise for and immediately cease doing in the future.

As far as I am concerned their Blasphemy against my beliefs is just as important, offensive and distressing to me as a Blasphemy against their beliefs.

landmarker
03-Feb-06, 21:13
Why do something to deliberately antagonize people who are willing to kill for their beliefs? Doesn't make a lot of sense, unless there is a "fifth column" who want a war.

Surely then, the question is do such people belong in a free 21st. century society?
They seem far better suited to life back in the dark ages and there are any number
of Islamic countries which would fit the bill for them.

Saveman
03-Feb-06, 21:19
Surely then, the question is do such people belong in a free 21st. century society?
They seem far better suited to life back in the dark ages and there are any number
of Islamic countries which would fit the bill for them.

Perhaps we're headed for a modern day "dark ages."

landmarker
03-Feb-06, 21:21
The difference with the UK zealot is that they are more likely to express their disgust in a "stiff" letter to the Daily Mail, rather than crying for people to be strung up.

.

Isn't this an essential difference. The difference which elevates western ways above knee jerk calls for death and violence?

Saveman
03-Feb-06, 21:21
<snip>

And I find it a blasphemy that they actually give a name to the “One God” because His actual Name should never be spoken or written in any way!
<snip>


Do you mean the name Jesus?

landmarker
03-Feb-06, 21:23
I think the other more radical type should get a life...

But they value death far more than life.
How do you square that one?

landmarker
03-Feb-06, 21:29
I discovered today that muslims, even children are not allowed to draw pictures of people or even animals. Cannot for instance, have posters on the wall depicting a living being. This obviously explains why there is no Islamic art.
Just consider the great works of art the Christian world has produced around religion, depicting cherubs/angels/Jesus/God etc etc. This is a fundamental difference. The muslim religion seems to be where the Christian one was about six or seven hundred years ago. Persecuting non-believers. Did not the 'reformation 'period bring enlightenment to Christianity? Maybe something similar is needed within Islam to enable it's followers to live more comfortably within western societies. Otherwise the future is bleak indeed.

wickerinca
03-Feb-06, 21:37
But they value death far more than life.
How do you square that one?

Can't.........that is what frightens me.

willowbankbear
04-Feb-06, 01:03
Take your wife to an islamic state & let her wear shorts in front of 1 of their temples! See how long you last:o) Erm dinna work and ask their state to give ye at least 180 quid a week to live on, and then preach to the 1s that may listen to ye, that All the islamics are evil.
Sound familiar?
Thought so, but whats good enough fro the goose isna for the gander in this case.
Ye get my point though ill bet

Rheghead
04-Feb-06, 01:12
I discovered today that muslims, even children are not allowed to draw pictures of people or even animals. .

Well that's their chances blown at selling a painting at this year's Caithness Artists exhibition at the town hall.[lol]

willowbankbear
04-Feb-06, 01:37
Well that's their chances blown at selling a painting at this year's Caithness Artists exhibition at the town hall.[lol]

PSML:lol: :lol: :lol:

Nice 1 at last , So ye have a sense of humour mate
Glad to see it emerge

Gleber2
04-Feb-06, 02:03
No Islamic art???You're blind as well as deaf.:grin: Persian and Afghan rugs and carpets,The Taj Mahal, the tile work on the Mosques, the exquisite jewelry,Moroccan brass work and all the other artifacts that have no depictation of people at all.There is no Islamic art???

JAWS
04-Feb-06, 03:58
Do you mean the name Jesus?
No, not Jesus, he was the Son of God. (No, I don't wish to start a discussion about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit being three entities in one, that's a whole discussion in itself)
The name of the God of Abraham should not be spoken or written. In fact, if my memory serves me correctly, when Moses asked of God who he should say had given the tablets containing the Ten Commandments to him he was told, "Tell them I am who I am, tell them I am!".
Surely God would have given Moses His name then had he wished it to be spoken.
It stands to reason that if there is One God and only One God then he doesn't need a name to identify him.
Similarly, at least at present, there is only one Universe and calling it that identifies it.
It is only when there are more than one universe that naming them becomes a necessary form of distinguishing which one you mean.
Likewise with God, to name Him implies that you need to identify Him from other gods and therefore would suggest that you are not a Believer in the that there is only One God.

JAWS
04-Feb-06, 04:06
PSML:lol: :lol: :lol:

Nice 1 at last , So ye have a sense of humour mate
Glad to see it emerge
Rheghead has a great sense of humour. Well his posts always make me laugh! [lol]

(Only teasing Rheghead, I just couldn't resist that one, it was too tempting. Your posts, even when I disagree with them, make perfect sense.)

Tymey
04-Feb-06, 13:12
It seems that many Muslims are boycotting Danish products following the cartoons featuring Mohammed (apologies if spelt wrong). Am I correct in thinking that Muslims don't eat pork, if so Danish bacon is already off the menu. and if they don't drink alcohol then Carlsberg too is already a non starter.

What other Danish products can be boycotted?

Rheghead
04-Feb-06, 14:05
What other Danish products can be boycotted?

Wind turbines :D

scotsboy
04-Feb-06, 14:38
Landmarker, you really have no idea what you are talking about. I live and work in Saudi Arabia, believe me there is plenty of art about.

Saveman
04-Feb-06, 15:55
It seems that many Muslims are boycotting Danish products following the cartoons featuring Mohammed (apologies if spelt wrong). Am I correct in thinking that Muslims don't eat pork, if so Danish bacon is already off the menu. and if they don't drink alcohol then Carlsberg too is already a non starter.

What other Danish products can be boycotted?

I've heard they're not purchasing products from Holland and their not buying goods from the Netherlands either.......

;)

Gleber2
04-Feb-06, 16:19
Landmarker, you really have no idea what you are talking about. I live and work in Saudi Arabia, believe me there is plenty of art about.
For a man who has a fair pride in his own intellect,Landmarker does say the stupidest of things sometimes.:roll:

wickerinca
04-Feb-06, 16:25
Well!!.....in retaliation I am going to throw all of my tahini and baba ghannouj out of my fridge...and I am not going to eat anymore of the stuff until those Islammic nations that blow people up stop it!!

Tymey
04-Feb-06, 16:27
I've heard they're not purchasing products from Holland and their not buying goods from the Netherlands either.......

;)

LOL - so thats Dolmio and some brands of pizza out....

willowbankbear
04-Feb-06, 16:34
LOL - so thats Dolmio and some brands of pizza out....

PMSL at that classic:grin: :grin: :grin:

scotsboy
04-Feb-06, 16:45
baba ghannouj

Manna from heaven.

Gleber2
04-Feb-06, 17:01
The sleeping dog is now a rabid snarling dog and we are poking it with a stick!!And we're supposed to be an intelligent civilised species.If this thread is a reflection of the majority view in the western world then a lot of people are in for a shock.The shape of the future cannot be anticipated by facts,figures or the shape of the past.We have never,in the history of man,been at the cross-roads we stand at now.Where we go from here is entirely in our own,the entire human race's, hands.Do we have time to bicker about the minutae and argue who or what is to blame.On this forum I have read posts from apparently intelligent people who say that they would,under the right conditions,condone the using of nuclear weapons against Iran.I have read how even the USA is not crazy enough to go it alone against Iran without UN sanction but they might invade Syria.I have said it before and I will say it again.The human race is cerifiably insane and it is a progressive illness, as each day continues to prove.

''We are their soldiers
The men of their armies
But we do not have
To do what they say.''

We have an army of soldiers who whine and cry when they are hurt or killed even though this an understood risk in being a soldier.They even sue the government.Mohammed has an army of fanatics who put no value on their own lives.I wonder who will win when the inevitable battle commences. The Mother Theresas and Albert Sweitzers referred to in another post are in for an eye-opener.Iraq,Iran,Syria,Afghanistan, where will the rapacious eyes of the Bush/Blair romance turn to next?And how long will the Arab world continue to take it without uniting against a common enemy?
At a time when the human race should be reaching for the stars,we are going to be sliding back into the slime from which you Darwinists say we came but this time the slime will be radioactive from the fallout of the panic bombing which will follow your first bomb dropped on Iran to stop their weapon making.

How many years must the cannonball fly
Before the're forever banned
The answer my friend is blowing in the wind
The answer is radioactive in the wind

landmarker
04-Feb-06, 19:22
Landmarker, you really have no idea what you are talking about. I live and work in Saudi Arabia, believe me there is plenty of art about.

I am talking about art that depicts the religion as in 'Christian' art.
Of course they have art. Before you get stroppy with me scotsboy try reading what I said properly, then read it again just to make sure it's sunk in. Otherwise feel free to ignore me.

scotsboy
04-Feb-06, 19:26
I discovered today that muslims, even children are not allowed to draw pictures of people or even animals. Cannot for instance, have posters on the wall depicting a living being. This obviously explains why there is no Islamic art.

Apologies Landmarker, we must be talking a different language - but from what you have written above I assumed that all muslims including their children are not allowed to draw pictures of people or animals - and that explains why there is no islamic art. Please feel free to point out where I misunderstood.........my mind is open by the way.

landmarker
04-Feb-06, 19:27
Last night I saw excited followers of Islam chanting something like

'death to the U.K.
Bin Laden is on his way'

On the streets of London.

Representatives of a legal political party are put on trial on 'race hatred' charges, half of which are thrown out yet these ingrates are allowed to threaten us on our own streets with seemingly little consequnece. The only guy on the news bulletin who incurred the wrath of the Police was a white van driver who had stopped to shout at the protestors.

'You've got one second to move your vehicle' said the P.C.

Tail wagging, dog rolling over.

Rheghead
04-Feb-06, 19:30
I am talking about art that depicts the religion as in 'Christian' art.

There are depictions of Mohammed in art in but these were painted many centuries ago.

scotsboy
04-Feb-06, 19:32
Yes, Rheghead a quick google will even bring them to your desktop.

landmarker
04-Feb-06, 19:36
Apologies Landmarker, we must be talking a different language - but from what you have written above I assumed that all muslims including their children are not allowed to draw pictures of people or animals - and that explains why there is no islamic art. Please feel free to point out where I misunderstood.........my mind is open by the way.

Okay, I heard from an Islamic authority on BBC Radio 4 on Thursday that devout muslims are not allowed to draw animals, or people. Including children.
That mosques have no representations of 'Muhammad' or any of their prophets on the walls. If you take a trip to. for instance, St.Peters in Rome - you will see numerous works of art, sculpture or paintings which depict imagery from the Christian story.

Because of the restrictions within Islam I interpreted this to mean there are no depictions of s imilar nature, therefore no 'Islamic Art' I did not mean that no Islamic had ever produced a nice carpet or some fancy tiles. They have not reproduced deities or, or sculptures or paintings of the subjects of their worship.

Is that clearer?

(Whoever it was suggested I read the Qu'ran: What ever for? I think I'd find it hard work The excited Asian chap waving it before the camera in last nights BBC news bulletin called it 'our Victory' though. I'm not sure what he meant but I could hazard a guess. You say I may have misinterpeted the Qu'ran, there seems to be a lot of that going on, not least amongst some Muslims, let alone baffled lapsed Christians like me who watch baffled as our country seems to be subjected to all kinds of nonsense)

Rheghead
04-Feb-06, 19:39
Yes, Rheghead a quick google will even bring them to your desktop.

Oh yes, some of it is quite nice as well
http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/

scotsboy
04-Feb-06, 19:40
I have a copy of the Qur'an - many of the stories are very familiar to me.

I also find it difficult to understand the literal interpretations that are made by some very exciteable followers of Islam.

willowbankbear
04-Feb-06, 19:57
How come Nick Griffin got pulled into court for "Race hatred"? charges & them imbeciles were allowed to spout their venom in a London street yesterday without plod arresting them??????
1 rule for the minority, What is going on with this country? What a mess youve got us in mr Blair

Someone enlighten this bear please

Rheghead
04-Feb-06, 20:40
What a mess youve got us in mr Blair


What makes you think that Mr Blair is to blame for the failure to convict Griffin and the police not arresting him later?:confused:

landmarker
04-Feb-06, 20:52
What makes you think that Mr Blair is to blame for the failure to convict Griffin and the police not arresting him later?:confused:

What do you mean 'not arresting him later'?
The man had walked free from court after a jury aquitted him on several charges and could not reach a verdict on others. To arrest him immediately would surely have been an over reaction and smelt a bit of fish? Perhaps Sir Iqbal Sacranie and his cronies might have put a word in. He, in case you do not know is the leader of the 'British Counci of Muslims' An un-elected body who many decent law abiding and integrating muslims can not stand the sight nor sound of.

I am much more relaxed about mis-guided patriots like Nick Griffin,and his legitimate political party than I am about some of those wide- eyed fanatics I saw demonstrating and promising be-heading to anyone who scrawled a caricature of a bearded chap with a bomb on his barnet.

willowbankbear
04-Feb-06, 21:02
What makes you think that Mr Blair is to blame for the failure to convict Griffin and the police not arresting him later?:confused:
I think you miss-understood me sir, Why werent the over excited sensitive souls arrested for far more damage than Griffin did.
Griffin isnt p.c & Blairs mob dont want to upset them hypocrites of Islam is what it looks like to me & lots of others

Gleber2
04-Feb-06, 21:09
I am talking about art that depicts the religion as in 'Christian' art.
Of course they have art. Before you get stroppy with me scotsboy try reading what I said properly, then read it again just to make sure it's sunk in. Otherwise feel free to ignore me.

I read yor post about Islamic Art exactly as Scotsboy did.Before you get stroppy I suggest you say what you mean.

It's all right being ignored on this forum. I'm getting used to it.

Rheghead
04-Feb-06, 21:09
Griffin stated that Islam is a viscious and hateful religion, I think that can be said of Christianity if we probe the Bible for examples. Does this mean the Koran and Bible should be banned from publication now?

willowbankbear
04-Feb-06, 21:21
People threatening to behead someone because they did a cartoon that they didnt approve of & offended them ,That is vicious man. Are you telling me that in this country of free speech & liberty,folk have to put up with that rubbish????
I hope not, weve all got to tolerate each other but these extremeists should be punted out the country, were meant to live in a civil society but do we?

Rheghead
04-Feb-06, 21:38
Willow, you claimed that mr blair had put our country in this situation. I challenge that because I don't see a political connection with islamic extremists and racial hatred. Regardless of who is in number 10, griffin would still be spouting racial crap and islamic extremists would still be calling for beheadings and courts will still be aquitting the accused on a lack of evidence.

Bingobabe
04-Feb-06, 21:48
Well mr blair isnt called toenails for nothing, I think Mr bear meant If Uk had stopped brown-nosing USA & kept out of Iraq Afghanistan & minded our own interests(of which there are a few!) We wouldnt have a permanent terrorist threat hanging over us 24/7 365 days a year.
He`s a tad tipsy coz he was in the pub earlier,I can vouch for him[lol]

landmarker
04-Feb-06, 21:55
It's all right being ignored on this forum. I'm getting used to it.
.................................................. ..................................................

Gleber2
04-Feb-06, 22:02
What a positive post.Not even 'he who remains nameless 'can argue with you here.Keep it up.You're showing signs of intelligence.

Rheghead
04-Feb-06, 22:04
Why don't you two guys put eachother on your respective ignore lists, sorted!:)

Bingobabe
04-Feb-06, 22:07
Im new to this board but what is that amazing piece of thought about Landmarker?
Had me in hysterics

Gleber2
04-Feb-06, 22:41
Why don't you two guys put eachother on your respective ignore lists, sorted!:)

Whatever for? I've a fair record of communication with our opinionated and sarcastic friend who used to drive trucks and is considered to be all sorts of things in the posts I've read in the last two months.He has been torn to pieces by various protagonists as I have been.''He who shall remain nameless'' has done a good job on both of us.I lost all respect,however,when he admitted to being a Beatles fan.:confused: :lol:
Bingobabe,clarify your question and I'll answer it.

Bingobabe
04-Feb-06, 22:50
It wasnt you i was laughing at Gleber, it was Landmarkers blank screen a:confused ttempt at sarcasm, what an answer, what a response, totally EH????

wickerinca
04-Feb-06, 23:05
.................................................. ..................................................


[lol] [lol] [lol] hey gleber2....good of you to acknowledge Landmarker's growing intelligence!!!

willowbankbear
04-Feb-06, 23:21
HAhahahahhaha pmsl [lol] [lol]

Gleber2
04-Feb-06, 23:22
Please don't ignore me. Tell me,have you ever done the Europe to Iran run when you were a trucker and crossed the Tahir Pass in Eastern Turkey?

willowbankbear
04-Feb-06, 23:26
Please don't ignore me. Tell me,have you ever done the Europe to Iran run when you were a trucker and crossed the Tahir Pass in Eastern Turkey?

Well Gleber tell me more pal, take it thats a dodgy run then

Gleber2
04-Feb-06, 23:30
I've never been a trucker but I have crossed the Tahir Pass which was on the main road from Istanbul to Teheran and was no more than a dirt track when I crossed it. It was lined with dead trucks and I believe than any trucker who broke down on that piece of road had to get away from it fast for his own safety.

jjc
04-Feb-06, 23:30
Nobody took any notice of Christians complaining over "The Life of Brian".
Isn't this an essential difference. The difference which elevates western ways above knee jerk calls for death and violence? I seem to remember that a BBC executive was forced into hiding after receiving death threats from Christian fundamentalists over the Corporation’s decision to screen Jerry Springer: The Opera. And wasn’t it Sainsburys that withdrew the DVD of the opera from their shelves following protests by Christian groups?

...anyway...

When I saw the cartoons at the heart of this furore my first thought was “what’s all the fuss about?” They seemed – and still seemed – pretty harmless to me. I honestly cannot see what all the fuss is about and I certainly don’t see anything in them that warrants death-threats or the burning of embassies.

But then I’m viewing them from the luxurious position of not being branded a terrorist because of my ethnic origin and religious beliefs. When I turn on the television and see the latest American drama the ‘baddie’ doesn’t have the same skin colour as me or believe in the same God as I do. When I watch the news at night I look more like the people ‘defending freedom’ than I do those who they are defending it against. When I sit down on a bus people don’t look at me as though my backpack might be stuffed with explosives.

Perhaps if I had had to put up with that for the past five years I might have read more into the cartoons.

Add to that the fact that I live in the UK and not in Denmark or Norway. As I understand it, there is considerably less tolerance of Muslims in those countries than my own and perhaps these innocuous-seeming cartoons are simply the straws which broke the camel’s back?

Of course, even taking all of this into account I still see no justification for what has gone on – I’m just trying to understand why the reaction was so extreme and to explain why I think the answer to all of this is far more complex than ‘Islam needs to lighten up’.

Saveman
04-Feb-06, 23:45
I seem to remember that a BBC executive was forced into hiding after receiving death threats from Christian fundamentalists over the Corporation’s decision to screen Jerry Springer: The Opera. And wasn’t it Sainsburys that withdrew the DVD of the opera from their shelves following protests by Christian groups?

...anyway...

When I saw the cartoons at the heart of this furore my first thought was “what’s all the fuss about?” They seemed – and still seemed – pretty harmless to me. I honestly cannot see what all the fuss is about and I certainly don’t see anything in them that warrants death-threats or the burning of embassies.

But then I’m viewing them from the luxurious position of not being branded a terrorist because of my ethnic origin and religious beliefs. When I turn on the television and see the latest American drama the ‘baddie’ doesn’t have the same skin colour as me or believe in the same God as I do. When I watch the news at night I look more like the people ‘defending freedom’ than I do those who they are defending it against. When I sit down on a bus people don’t look at me as though my backpack might be stuffed with explosives.

Perhaps if I had had to put up with that for the past five years I might have read more into the cartoons.

Add to that the fact that I live in the UK and not in Denmark or Norway. As I understand it, there is considerably less tolerance of Muslims in those countries than my own and perhaps these innocuous-seeming cartoons are simply the straws which broke the camel’s back?

Of course, even taking all of this into account I still see no justification for what has gone on – I’m just trying to understand why the reaction was so extreme and to explain why I think the answer to all of this is far more complex than ‘Islam needs to lighten up’.

Very balanced and empathetic view indeed. I might add that in my experience there is often more complex issues and questions raised by these type of subjects on the forum (including threads I've raised). I freely admit to learning new things everyday! Personal perspective is part of the human experience and should be recognised as a limitation on our wisdom.

Gleber2
04-Feb-06, 23:50
The Arabic Muslims of the middle east hate and have hated the Great Satan for a long time.The Great Satan being the USA and later Britain.The Arabs/Muslims have a much more justifiable hatred of us than we have of them. We,the British,ran things in that neck of the woods for a long time and not for the benefit of the natives..It's strange,though,when faced with this antipathy towards the British,I was treated with friendship when it was discovered that I was Scottish and not English.Most American dramas these days seem to have a dark skinned person as the police hero etc.
Our distrust of the Muslim peoples per se only became really obvious when the terrorists began their campaigns.They have hated and distrusted us for an awful lot longer. These cartoons are rubbing salt into an already festering wound.

landmarker
05-Feb-06, 00:37
the blank line of full stops after gleeber 2's post saying he gets ignored on here was anc attempt at semi intoxicated humour. Wasted on some of you, especially friend Rheghead it appears.

I've been 'bad repped' for it, by someone who needs to get a life, or a sense of humour.

Incidentally, I've been to Turkey,the real Turkey, away from the tourist hot-spots but not in a lorry. I read 'Cola-Cowboys' by Franklin Wood, and know a guy who did the run regularly. It put me off. Much of the culture there is greedy, grasping and opportunist when they see a westerner they automatically think it's a gravy train rather than a truck.

Gleber2
05-Feb-06, 00:47
I can't believed you got bad repped for your line of dots.I was tickled pink and I think Rheghead was being less than serious."He who must not be named" is back I see.

I crossed Turkey on busses and on foot and agree with you entirely.The only country I have travelled through that felt worse was Iran. I spent some time in the Londra Mocamp outside Istambul and heard many a horror tale from the drivers there.

landmarker
05-Feb-06, 00:52
Of course, even taking all of this into account I still see no justification for what has gone on – I’m just trying to understand why the reaction was so extreme and to explain why I think the answer to all of this is far more complex than ‘Islam needs to lighten up’.


There is no justification for 'what has gone on' and it's difficult to get a dissertation into a small space for a thread title. When the thread was started , & before this ridiculous escalation you might say such a headline was justified. Of course, you might not jjc.

JAWS
05-Feb-06, 04:08
I seem to remember that a BBC executive was forced into hiding after receiving death threats from Christian fundamentalists over the Corporation’s decision to screen Jerry Springer: The Opera. And wasn’t it Sainsburys that withdrew the DVD of the opera from their shelves following protests by Christian groups?

When I saw the cartoons at the heart of this furore my first thought was “what’s all the fuss about?” They seemed – and still seemed – pretty harmless to me.
Well jjc, we are certainly agreed on one thing, I thought exactly the same as you when I saw the cartoons.

Jerry Springer: The Opera I must admit I did not pay particular attention to the fuss about it. I know there were complaints but not the extent.

The one thing I do know is that with that programme, the Da Vinci Code and the Life of Brian there was no call from the Leaders of any of the main Christian Religions or from the Leaders of any Christian Country for sanctions against the people involved. Neither were there demands that the Leaders of any Country showing it should be made to offer grovelling apologies for having allowed the public access to them.

Small groups with extreme views will always make a fuss when they think their sensibilities have been offended and some will threaten extreme actions.
But when Governments and high ranking Religious Leaders join in then that is an entirely different matter.

I have no objections to Muslims Clerics expressing their distaste of the Cartoons, indeed I would expect them so to do, but when it amounts to apparently encouraging people to enforce their ideals by violence then that is a different matter. I would also feel the same distaste if Christian or any other Religious Leaders were to behave in the same manner anywhere.

jjc
05-Feb-06, 14:58
The one thing I do know is that with that programme, the Da Vinci Code and the Life of Brian there was no call from the Leaders of any of the main Christian Religions or from the Leaders of any Christian Country for sanctions against the people involved. Neither were there demands that the Leaders of any Country showing it should be made to offer grovelling apologies for having allowed the public access to them. There weren't? Well, I guess that depends on who you class as a 'leader'.

I suspect that had we not got the understanding of Christianity that we do we might easily have presumed that those Christian organisations that did call for sanctions against those involved in the broadcast represented some form of religious leadership.


But when Governments and high ranking Religious Leaders join in then that is an entirely different matter. Yes, I agree… but then the Bishop of Southwark argued (on BBC2) that The Life of Brian was blasphemous and mocked Christ. Not only is the Bishop a leader of his religion, he also has a seat in the House of Lords.

The film was banned by several town councils. It was also banned by a number of countries, including the Republic of Ireland and Italy.

But that’s different, isn’t it… after all, we understand the workings of Christianity and we know that when the Bishop of Southwark, with crucifix held aloft, told Michael Palin and John Cleese that they would ‘get their 30 pieces of silver’ he was speaking as an individual and not as a sitting member of the House of Lords or a representative of every member of the CofE.

wickerinca
05-Feb-06, 18:33
All of your remarks are fascinating.......and as previously mentioned.........educates me and makes me question my own values and thoughts. But to answer the original question....Does Islam need to lighten up?.......I have to vote yes.

Gleber2
05-Feb-06, 20:41
One wonders when and where the present wave of religious violence is going to end.Do we let the buildings burn? The situation exists and I see no end to the escalation. Too late to apologise I reckon. All over a cartoon.Yes the Muslims are over the top but we of the West started it.We must also stop it.

rich62_uk
05-Feb-06, 21:08
One wonders when and where the present wave of religious violence is going to end.Do we let the buildings burn? The situation exists and I see no end to the escalation. Too late to apologise I reckon. All over a cartoon.Yes the Muslims are over the top but we of the West started it.We must also stop it.

How on earth did we start it ? I repeat what I said in an earlier post, no religious group has any right to inflict their beliefs on any one else, if they don't like what they hear or see then why dont they "live before us" and show us how religion has affected them for the good.....Trish.

Gleber2
05-Feb-06, 22:21
Having the right or not having the right is not important.The cartoons in the western press started it.The stopping is more important than the starting.When you are staring at a molotov cocktail,you are not going to save yourself by saying"You haven't got the right to kill me."

rich62_uk
05-Feb-06, 23:11
This is ridiculous, I don't know why I am arguing with you, we tell our children do not give into bullies if you do it will only get worse and this is no different.
Every aircraft that has been hi jacked and every person who has been kidnapped, gleeba when would you make a stand ?.....Trish.

gleeber
05-Feb-06, 23:27
Your right Rich. Its time to stop sucking up to these religious lunatics. They need to know that Western Freedom is not conditional on whether someones religion can be lampooned or not.
Theres many things wrong with Western culture but theres much more right about it compared to the restrictions muslims are prepared to put up with in the name of their control freak God and the Holy Quran.
These people ultimately want to save the world for Allah and nothing will stop them.
Either stand up to them now or our children will have to do it.
Thank Allah for Churchill when he refused to appease the Nazis in the 30s. I see this as a similar danger to civilisation and moderate muslims are just as responsible as the nutters we see burning embassies on our tv screens if they dont make a stand against the zealots and condemn every aspect of Islamic fundamentalism.

Rheghead
05-Feb-06, 23:36
I agree Gleeber

British Muslims must understand that (no matter how distasteful those cartoons may seem,) that we in the UK have a secular society and religious freedom. Freedom to ridicule and freedom to adhere to a religion, it works both ways.

Gleber2
06-Feb-06, 00:11
There is no arguement.Your view point is as valid as mine.The difference is that I will always do what I can to avoid violence but when there is no choice then I am up for the fight as much as you seem to be.Whether we come to confrontation over a bunch of cartoons or over oil or over anything else, we are heading for confrontation.If it comes to the nuclear crunch there is not likely to be a future for our children to fight over.I am sure there are lots of Middle Eastern people who say that for every one of our people bombed,for everyone of our towns destroyed,for every threat uttered by the Great Satan,when will we take a stand.
Let us be clear on one point Rich62,I do not side with the East and I do not side with the West. I try to see a balanced view of both sides and,over the cartoon business, I see both sides as a pair of squabbling bairns.

Rheghead
06-Feb-06, 00:19
The difference is that I will always do what I can to avoid violence .

Religious freedom is the road to non-violence, it is those that are burning embassies that don't believe in it.

rich62_uk
06-Feb-06, 00:41
There is no arguement.Your view point is as valid as mine.The difference is that I will always do what I can to avoid violence but when there is no choice then I am up for the fight as much as you seem to be.Whether we come to confrontation over a bunch of cartoons or over oil or over anything else, we are heading for confrontation.If it comes to the nuclear crunch there is not likely to be a future for our children to fight over.

I think you are talking about a choice between our children's heritage, beliefs, freedom and freedom of speech or their life. I couldn't live in a world where I was afraid of what I said or did or even ate every moment for fear of reprisal from one group or another, and I wouldn't want my children to live that way either I would rather us all dead.(with my big mouth we wouldn't last long anyway)

From what I have seen of your posts I assume you are a man. You couldn't live that way either who would want to.....Trish.

Gleber2
06-Feb-06, 02:16
Religious freedom is the road to non-violence, it is those that are burning embassies that don't believe in it.

Where we stand on the road to nonviolence we are face to face with violence.I don't think it will stop at embassies.I have no arguement with you sir.I seem to be being backed into a corner where every word I post would seem to indicate that I am batting for the opposition. Not true.

Trish you guessed right I am most certainly a man.I see exactly where you are coming from and I am not disagreeing with you.It is just that I see the big fight as being the last one and, if no diplomatic compromises are reached, we will be facing it very soon.I have been jailed for my beliefs, and have lived in fear of reprisals from my own misguided government and no, I don't like living like that but we are possibly talking about Arageddon here over a few drawings.

JAWS
06-Feb-06, 03:04
There weren't? Well, I guess that depends on who you class as a 'leader'.

I suspect that had we not got the understanding of Christianity that we do we might easily have presumed that those Christian organisations that did call for sanctions against those involved in the broadcast represented some form of religious leadership.

Yes, I agree… but then the Bishop of Southwark argued (on BBC2) that The Life of Brian was blasphemous and mocked Christ. Not only is the Bishop a leader of his religion, he also has a seat in the House of Lords.

The film was banned by several town councils. It was also banned by a number of countries, including the Republic of Ireland and Italy.

But that’s different, isn’t it… after all, we understand the workings of Christianity and we know that when the Bishop of Southwark, with crucifix held aloft, told Michael Palin and John Cleese that they would ‘get their 30 pieces of silver’ he was speaking as an individual and not as a sitting member of the House of Lords or a representative of every member of the CofE.
I also remember one Bishop describing the Resurrection as a Conjuring Trick with a Bag of Bones! Was he speaking for the whole of the CofE or all Christians?

The Leaders of the CofE are Canterbury and York. The Bishop of Southwark, and many Practicing Christians would have found the Life of Brian both mocking and blasphemous, and he may even of called the Wrath of God down on Cleese and Palin. Should I have offered him some of my views I have no doubt he would do the same to me should he be so inclined but I hardly think that it would make me walk in fear of my life as a result. .
That is hardly the same thing as stirring up the whole of Christianity to revolt against the Film.

Certain Towns no doubt banned the Film as did Ireland and Italy. Did they make any threats against any Town of Country showing the film?
Where there any threats from them to cause trouble in other Countries?
Who threatened Ireland and Italy to such an extent that they banned the Film as a result of fear?

Any Country in the World has a right to stop the Cartoons being published but only if that is their own choice and not because of the threat of Death and Destruction or having their Embassies set on fire.
Perhaps the Bishop of Southwark and the Governments of Ireland and Italy were intent on creating such an outcome, if they were then nobody seems to have noticed of acted. I rather suspect that if they had come anywhere near to that we would still be being assailed with the fact.
What you describe hardly ranks with threats of Terrorism against Towns and Countries showing the Film.

JAWS
06-Feb-06, 03:20
Having the right or not having the right is not important.The cartoons in the western press started it.The stopping is more important than the starting.When you are staring at a molotov cocktail,you are not going to save yourself by saying"You haven't got the right to kill me."
Gleber2, you are absolutely correct. But running away is not always the answer, at some point the decision has to be made of "Thus far and no further".

At that point you have to stand and fact the threat come what may. The only alternative is to encourage people who make threats to demand more and more until eventually they have complete control.

Why should they stop? If you have given them their way time and time again why should they think that they can't do the same again and again in the future.

Standing and facing petrol bombers is not my idea of fun, but sometimes you have to just grit your teeth and do it.

Dusty
06-Feb-06, 03:59
I understand from Sky News that these cartoons were first printed back in September 2005.
They've taken a while to decide that they're upset have they not?
A cynic might suggest that certain religious factions are utilising the Faux Pas for their own ends!

Gleber2
06-Feb-06, 04:03
I have never at any time suggested that we run away from the threats.Far from it and I have no disagreement with you on this subject.
The Church of England has the monarch as Head of Church.A religion which broke away from a religion I have never recognised as having any authority in the first place cannot,in my opinion, have any authority at all.Constantine put a thin veneer of Pauline Chritianity over the Roman/Persian religion of Mithrism and Called it Roman Catholisism and all other Christian religions stem from that original.Mithra was born on 25th Dec,had a virgin birth and had 12 followers.Very coincidental don't you think?The CofE, in my book,is an empty vessel with no ppower at all.The religion of Islam is a different kettle of fish.

jjc
06-Feb-06, 14:05
The Leaders of the CofE are Canterbury and York. But that’s just my point. I don’t know about you, but I am not a member of the Church of England (or any other church for that matter), but we both have a pretty good idea of the hierarchy of the organisation – the Queen, archbishops, bishops etc. The Bishop of Southwark is a leader in his church, but we both know he isn’t the head of his church just as we both know that every member of his church has an independent mind and we both know that they won’t blindly follow their leaders’ every command without question.

Why are we, as a nation, unable to see the same individuality in Muslims? What percentage of British Muslims turned up in London to protest the Danish embassy? From the way the media is reporting the protest, and from some of the comments here, you could be forgiven if you thought it was 100%. Is there some reason why we think that whenever any leader of Islam speaks every Muslim across the globe rushes to fulfil their every command?

Do I think that we should tolerate death-threats and arson? No; I absolutely do not.

Do I think that we should ignore the irresponsible underlying intent of these cartoons just because they got the intended reaction? No; I absolutely do not.

Do I think that if we – the western, Christian ‘elite’ – broadened our education to include other faiths and other cultures then the world would be a more tolerant and less volatile place? Yes; I absolutely do.

Do I think that Islam needs to lighten up? No more so than any other religion… if you focus only on the extremists who shout the loudest and tolerate the least.

Gleber2
06-Feb-06, 14:23
What are you going to to say to the militant muslim who is banging at your door? Moriture te salutant.I am sure you will point out if my Latin spelling is not right. It is not the rest of The people of Islam that is bothering me,it is the militant angry ones which no ammount of semi-intellectual rhetoric is going to stop.

JAWS
06-Feb-06, 15:30
Dusty, I absolutely agree with you. Like so many instances of "spontaneous" outrage once they "cause" is carefully looked at then they look less and less spontaneous. More often than not, they are a demonstration "Spontaneous" demonstration waiting for a cause to appear. I would suspect that when the Cartoons appeared on the first occasion they were noticed as a "missed opportunity" and a decision then made to use such a thing in future. The use of the "Rabble Rousers in the crowd" to whip up an emotional response is a well and trusted method. The only thing I am surprised at is how many normally sensible people have fallen for it.

Gleber, I agree with your last point also. Sometimes a line must be drawn in the sand. Even Muslim Organisations of the more thoughtful kind, who represent large section of their Faith, are asking why certain attention seeking idiots using inflammatory methods were not dealt with by the Police. They too are highly offended by mock suicide bombers and placards screaming "Europe, your 9/11 is coming", or words to that effect.
There were peaceful, well ordered demonstrations on Friday and Saturday by many Muslims and I believe absolutely that they have every right to do that and would not wish to prevent them.
It is the people who are inflaming the situation by posturing and preening themselves in order to demonstrate their supposed piety and who should know better who are the problem. Certain Muslim Political Leaders are using the situation to further their own political aims, and not necessarily against Europe or America.

jjc, (I'm having a bad day, I'm agreeing with everybody but the pills will soon cure me. :grin:) I have to agree about the impression which is being given. My main concern, which now seems to be being addressed, at least in Britain, is that such an impression has not been countered by reasonably Muslim Leaders who could have objected as strongly as they wished about the Cartoons yet still have made clear to the World that lunatic "Bomb and Burn Everything" Brigade were despised by them also.
Had the Bishop of Southwark given any hint the he thought Cinemas should be burned and people put under threat of death I would hope that Christian Leaders of all Faiths would have made clear that he was totally out of order and such things should not be considered by anyone.
I would object to the leaders of any Faith who allowed it to be misused in such a way.
If they see such things happening and they fail to correct the impression being given then they are failing in they duty to their Followers.

The young Muslim woman who spoke out this lunchtime against the lunatic fringe of trouble makers has presented a more realistic view of their Faith than any of the Bandwagon Brigade who have joined the chorus of 'shock and 'horror' which has gone on over the last few days.
She seems to have been the only one who has said, "Demonstrate yes, but there are limits." And I admire her for having said so when many others have failed.

badger
06-Feb-06, 17:50
I am a Christian and it occurs to me I had led a pretty sheltered life until recently as, although I was obviously aware of fundamentalists, I had no direct indepth conversation with such people until I moved up here and found it first interesting but then quite shocking. My background is middle-of-the-road, fairly easygoing, tolerant Anglicanism and extremist attitudes are quite alien, particularly as they allow of no disagreement or even discussion. Presumably most Muslims are in the same position. There have always been people who hijack certain aspects of any faith to give them power over others through fear or bribery. Even the Bible and the Koran were written by men giving their own interpretation according to the culture of the time and in the wrong hands or misquoted they can be dangerous weapons.


A Muslim extremist, whose name I can’t now remember, was on Today this morning stating that the laws of any particular country were irrelevant and did not override their demands for death to anyone insulting Mohammed (or whatever). As far as he was concerned his religious law applied anywhere regardless. We cannot allow our laws to be broken using this as an excuse and what I do not understand is why the police did not arrest demonstrators carrying illegal placards at the time. Maybe they were playing safe at the time and did not want to stir up more trouble but this is discrimination and I don’t believe they would have overlooked any other individual threatening death in this way. The politicians are saying it is up to the police to arrest them but it’s going to be a lot more difficult to identify and prosecute them now. These extremists are never going to "lighten up" but they will certainly attract more disaffected young people to their cause.


I agree with jjc’s point about education but would extend that if only it were possible (and it probably isn’t) to all schools, including Muslim, Christian, Sikh and any other faith schools. In fact I suspect there is more knowledge of other faiths in "Christian" schools than there is of Christianity and other faiths in, say, Muslim schools, but still that is too little. If parents want their children to worship in one particular faith and celebrate it’s festivals, that’s fine – but a good knowledge of all the major faiths should be compulsory.

Must pay attention to the radio now - interesting discussion on this topic.

scotsboy
06-Feb-06, 18:24
Education and understanding of each culture is required. I am frequently sent stuff trying to interst me in converting to Islam, one of these included the following as part of the reason for muslims not eating pork:


The pig is the most shameless animal on the face of the earth. It is the only animal that invites its friends to have sex with its mate. In America, most people consume pork. Many times after dance parties, they have swapping of wives; i.e. many say "you sleep with my wife and I will sleep with your wife." If you eat pigs then you behave like pigs.

I actually nearly fell of the chair laughing, and can no longer order a bacon roll without a broad smile coming upon my face, but you have to understand that some muslims actually think that wife swapping IS caused by eating pork........just like many of the misconceptions about Islam that I hear and read every day.

Tel
06-Feb-06, 23:19
I have worked in several Islamic countries over the years & you meet as many genuine people as you do in our country. They do possibly have a certain resentment at us coming to there country to work for various reasons, but never aggressively so.
The majority are people who believe in the faith & that their god will look after them if they follow the faith during life & that they will be rewarded in the after-life for this devotion..similar to ours....but more regular prayer
(Someone praying five times a day in the mosque is fine by me....but makes you ask if Caithness adopted Islam ....would they ever get any work done in Dounreay with another five stoppages per day!!!! & What could possibly repalce the Rangers-Celtic bigotry on old firm days?? ...fans singing "God save the Sheik & the Deserts of Athenry...!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

The extremism is visible in all faiths. Look at the various "Types of worship" we have in the Western World....to numerous to mention in its various forms.

Some of them try punting ther beliefs to us by use of door to door "faith" salesmen in black raincoats ( you know the ones I mean!) as it cannot quite compete in the "real faith stakes".... quite sad isnt it!....BUT.... as a relatively free society we allow this & other faiths to practice their beliefs as it will "float someones boat" as they say....!

Over the years as I got to know some very good working class people of islamic faith whom I can only but respect for their honesty & integrity in there cultural values & as to how they lead their lives.
The vast majority of them, like us, want to live in peace & they only condemn those who attack their bothers or their faith. They do not view all the Western world as infidels...especially those who have travelled to the "West" & seen it for themselves & the "type" of freedom it has compared to theirs
Resentment from islamic states was to be expected over Iraq / Afganistan as innocent people were killed by the "goodies" trying to capture select few "baddies" as Mr Bush / Blair would have us believe.
Freedom of Expression is a great thing when there are many views to hear & opens great debate. But in a more closed society can there be a place for democracy as we know it?.....They have given the people of Iraq a new found freedom but the people were not prepared for it having been under dictatorships for decades before....
I have read parts of the Quran, that have been translated into english, but it was mainly out of curiosity to see what the comparisons were with main parts of the bible. Have to say It was not for me...
"Pig is not eaten as its considered a dirty animal that will eat its own faeces...so it is dirty" (I also heard pigs dont like living in hot dry desert conditions so i think both will be satisfied at that outcome!!)

The "World leaders across the pond" in USA have done little to reduce the threat of terrorism in the last 20years, aggravating many a nation in its insatiable need to control Oil, Oil markets & the wealth from it, as they have most need for it in their weak economy.
As the Dubai Oil resources dwindle, they could not bare the thought of Saddam to be in control of it as they can control price per barrel at flick of a switch....which can cripple industry overnight.
We are still waiting for the weapons of mass destruction to be found, which is after all, why they put troops to war. ( They probably bought the WMD's back from Iraq to plant in the next country it intends to occupy, but lost the paperwork somewhere.....as per normal!!!...will turn up in 10yrs when the oil has run out!!!...."Oooooops it appears u have no nuclear weapons...Sorry, Thanks & goodbye...you can get 10cent refunds on the empty Oil barrels!!!)

We lived with terrorism known as the "Irish troubles" for 30 years or more, which was sponsored by all major promotors of terrorism around the world....incl factions in USA...... but in the end, our leaders sat down & negotiated, with what they had called "terrorists" all that years previously....its still not "sorted" but its a step in right direction. Something to be said for negotiation!....no matter who its with.(some of the younger people in here may not remember the bombing campaigns & "tit-for-tat killings that made the news every day or week during 70s -80s)

In one Islamic state i worked, the people generally had more distain for their own dictator, than the West...but it was a country totally suppresed by Army / Police.
The TV stations constantly tried to brainwash people that "The West is Evil & we are conspiring aginst them....any programes relating to them would be blocked from viewing on BBC World Service"
During the period of UN sanctions against the country, there was major profiteering & scams going on within its own own boundaries as well as outwith, but they "alleged" to their people that it was the "Western Infidels that crippled the country"....(nothing to do with the bombing & terrorist campaigns its leaders funded throughout the west in the 70s & 80s)
Whilst in the country, in the capital city, there was only 1 place of worship for any western form of religion that was non islamic, as anything else was taboo. Very few went for fear of being targeted...The basic rule was & still is.. "When in Rome do as the Romans do".... as they do not want our beliefs & ways in thier country & if you try to promote it to anyone.... "God help you!"...
The local papers often had cartoons that mocked political situations/ leaders as we do...but never recall them blaspheming our god.
When there was minor political unrest or rumours of something stirring such as a demonstration...the troops were sent in & problem "well & truly eradicated" & body bags needed....example of this happened in a football stadium where fans were chanting anti gonvernmental slogans...troops came out onto field & government stated it "allegedly" got out of control, eventually they opened fire on the crowd...killing somewhere between 30-50 people & loads thrown in jail.
Their idea of jail & punishment is something worlds apart from ours as the punishment is done in public for all to see!....

Terrorism has been with us for many a year & nothing new, but the practices of the suicide extremists are cold & callous....Walking onto a bus with a backpack full of explosives & killing innocent people & children and saying its for your gods is difficult for all to comprehend, even with the different cultural & core values the east & west posess. If the enemy is led to believe he is going to a better place in the afterlife for his duties, its gonna be hard or nigh on impossible to stop!.....

We have opened the floodgates on many things in country, immigration / refugees etc & the borders around Europe are expanding, whilst allowing free movement for all without visas etc to a wider area is all very good....it must be a terrorists dream come true!

Gleber2
07-Feb-06, 14:00
Scotsboy,all religions have used nonsense propoganda to promote their beliefs. How much easier life would be if all organised religions were magically removed from our reality and each of us could believe what we want.

Tymey
07-Feb-06, 14:05
Some of them try punting ther beliefs to us by use of door to door "faith" salesmen in black raincoats ( you know the ones I mean!) as it cannot quite compete in the "real faith stakes"....


Define "real faith."

Saveman
07-Feb-06, 14:10
<snip>How much easier life would be if all organised religions were magically removed from our reality and each of us could believe what we want.

Be careful what you wish for......you just might get it....

katarina
07-Feb-06, 15:04
I agree Gleeber

British Muslims must understand that (no matter how distasteful those cartoons may seem,) that we in the UK have a secular society and religious freedom. Freedom to ridicule and freedom to adhere to a religion, it works both ways.

I totally agree. rheghead. These cartoons are distastful, and shows a complete lack of respect for the beliefs of others, but we allow freedom of speech and freedom of press, These cannot be curbed and dictated by a certain section of the world population.

Gleber2
07-Feb-06, 15:52
I wish and wish and wish.:confused:

Saveman
07-Feb-06, 15:57
Scotsboy,all religions have used nonsense propoganda to promote their beliefs.
Even the religion of science?


How much easier life would be if all organised religions were magically removed from our reality and each of us could believe what we want.

Each of us can believe what we want. Maybe not in all countries, but certainly right here in Britain, nobody is forcing us to believe one thing or another even with organised religion.

Gleber2
07-Feb-06, 16:21
In a reality such as ours,we are conditioned ,from the word go, by a culture that is steeped in dogma,and,no matter what we believe when we are old enough to make up our own minds,there is no real way to get rid of the residue of our childhood conditioning.The religious aspect is deeply ingrained and dictates our modus vivendi to a distressing extent,insofar that it dictates our marriage laws,our attitudes on a moral level and virtually all aspects of our social life whether we are consciously aware of it or not.One would think,from the falling attendance in churches etc.,that Christianity would be having a lesser effect than in the past but the number of Christians world wide is supposedly at the highest level ever.
Science as a religion is as clay footed as any other faith and I have no faith in it.A bad case of HUBRIS to even think it could ever be elevated to religious status.:grin:

Saveman
07-Feb-06, 16:34
In a reality such as ours,we are conditioned ,from the word go, by a culture that is steeped in dogma,and,no matter what we believe when we are old enough to make up our own minds,there is no real way to get rid of the residue of our childhood conditioning.

Children have to be taught standards of right and wrong. Is that conditioning? Or maybe protection?
I've have meet a lot of people who have rejected the way they've been brought up to embrace another way of life. Maybe a residue remains.....but it's not making them who they are.



The religious aspect is deeply ingrained and dictates our modus vivendi to a distressing extent,insofar that it dictates our marriage laws,our attitudes on a moral level and virtually all aspects of our social life whether we are consciously aware of it or not.

Is it our marriage laws or our moral levels or both that distress your modus vivendi?




One would think,from the falling attendance in churches etc.,that Christianity would be having a lesser effect than in the past but the number of Christians world wide is supposedly at the highest level ever.

Maybe because people are looking for answers to the biggest questions. Whether they find them or not is a different question.



Science as a religion is as clay footed as any other faith and I have no faith in it.A bad case of HUBRIS to even think it could ever be elevated to religious status.:grin:


er.....ok :lol:

Gleber2
07-Feb-06, 17:14
I haven't lived with my wife for fifteen years although we are still together and I rarely leave the house ,so the moral question is of no consequence and my modus vivendi is chust gran'.
When we talk of conditioning,it is the obvious conditionig that we consider such as zero to five years old in the hands of parents,family,friends, TV and, these days, nursery and then school and life thereafter.What we tend to overlook is the period we spend gestating when we get a complete download from the host computer called Mum. She,being from another generation, is one step closer to a Victorian ethic and so on.This conditioning,I believe,can never be erradicated entirely and,in consequence ,subconsciously dictates most of our thinking. I am not a Scientologist but I've looked for my engrams:evil :lol:

Tel
08-Feb-06, 18:01
Define "real faith."

It can never be truly defined....
A spiritual freedom & satisfaction for the end user.... & its free for anyone to be welcomed / partake in its ways!

The "door to door faith sellers", should be defined more as "Cult" status as they want to control nearly everything about you....and in return they will aid the depreciation of your bank balance..for your spiritual enlightening you in there ways!!

katarina
08-Feb-06, 19:45
In a reality such as ours,we are conditioned ,from the word go, by a culture that is steeped in dogma,and,no matter what we believe when we are old enough to make up our own minds,there is no real way to get rid of the residue of our childhood conditioning.The religious aspect is deeply ingrained and dictates our modus vivendi to a distressing extent,insofar that it dictates our marriage laws,our attitudes on a moral level and virtually all aspects of our social life whether we are consciously aware of it or not.One would think,from the falling attendance in churches etc.,that Christianity would be having a lesser effect than in the past but the number of Christians world wide is supposedly at the highest level ever.
Science as a religion is as clay footed as any other faith and I have no faith in it.A bad case of HUBRIS to even think it could ever be elevated to religious status.:grin:

A little girl was talking to a scientist about whales.
The scientist said it was physically impossible for a whale to swallow a
human because even though it was a very large mammal its throat was very
small.
The little girl stated that Jonah was swallowed by a whale.
Irritated, the scientist reiterated that a whale could not swallow a human;
it was physically impossible.
The little girl said, "When I get to heaven I will ask Jonah".
The scientist asked, "What if Jonah went to hell?"
The little girl replied, "Then you ask him".

Gleber2
08-Feb-06, 22:37
LOL! I like it.

landmarker
10-Feb-06, 22:00
...more on the topic I'm afraid. Hit your mouse now if you're fed up with it.
Makes a change from kicking the cat...

....The 'Daily Mail' carried a full page of colour photographs from a shi-ite flagellation ritual today. Boys and men dressed in white flailing themselves with whips, knives and razors until their heads, faces and bodies were covered in blood.

The shi-ites have done this for centuries and one man was gashing his sons head with a large knife to make him bleed . His face was photographed looking rather distressed.


Although these scenes were pictured in the Lebanon, the growth of this religion in Britain concerns me greatly,as some of you have guessed. During the second half of the twentieth century for good or ill we had become a largely post religious society. The growth of imported Islam seems exponential and a course for demographic dominance within a couple of centuries or less. Why should any of us alive today worry you may ask. I have no answer but worry I do.

The outlook and ritual of this religion belong in another age.
Unless it can adapt from within to a more moderate, less strident and modernised format then trouble lies ahead.

Gleber2
10-Feb-06, 23:43
A thought provoking post and one which you know I will agree with.You see centuries and I see years.

JAWS
11-Feb-06, 02:25
It would appear that an Egyptian Newspaper published the Insulting Cartoons last year during the Holy Month of Ramadan.

Not a word was raised in protest. Nobody seemed to have any problem with it at all. And all that in a Muslim Country with well organised groups of Muslim Fundamentalists.

If it wasn't an insult to Mohammed then, why is it now? :confused:

Rheghead
11-Feb-06, 02:34
I heard tonight that the cartoons that have caused the most offence in Islamic countries weren't actually published in Denmark. Anybody else can support this?:confused:

JAWS
11-Feb-06, 03:18
I heard tonight that the cartoons that have caused the most offence in Islamic countries weren't actually published in Denmark. Anybody else can support this?:confused:
I heard a report earlier this week the a group of Danish Militant Muslims went to Muslim Countries with additional Cartoons which were described as "more bestial". There was no further clarification of the term.
In view of the fact that there is a marked reluctance to generally publish the Cartoons in full then many people shown the more offensive Cartoons will never know they are not the originals.
It would appear that the deception was done with the malicious intent of creating the very outrage and violence which has occurred.

jjc
11-Feb-06, 15:35
Although these scenes were pictured in the Lebanon, the growth of this religion in Britain concerns me greatly... Just what is the Shi'a population of Britain? How much has it grown and over what time-period?

I've said before that I believe that there would be significantly less animosity toward Islam (and vice versa) if we had more of an understanding of it. We would never dream of judging Catholics based upon the actions of a group of Quakers yet both are Christian religions. Should we not at least try to acknowledge that there are similar splits in Islam and not all Muslims celebrate Ashurah with rituals such as you have described?

scotsboy
11-Feb-06, 17:58
The young guy I share an office with (he is Sunni Muslim) told me of his horror at taking the wrong turning whilst driving in central Manama (Bahrain) at the weekend. He ended up slap bang in the middle of a Shi’i procession to celebrate Ashura. He was concerned for his safety as he was driving a Saudi registered car – the majority of Saudi’s are Sunni, but there is a large Shi’i population in Bahrain. He got out safely but I could tell from the way he told the story that he was really scared.
There is a lot of fractional tension between Sunni and Shi’i. In fact many insurgent attacks in Iraq are against the Shi’I population. Al Qeda are a Sunni based organization.

JAWS
11-Feb-06, 21:14
Just what is the Shi'a Should we not at least try to acknowledge that there are similar splits in Islam and not all Muslims celebrate Ashurah with rituals such as you have described?
I'm sure that the Incas thought very much the same thing when Cortez arrived with a handful of Christians.

For tolerance to work it has to work in both directions. In some cultures arranged marriages are the way things are done and the wife becomes virtually the property of her husband to be treated as he and his family wish.
Are we to tolerate that simply because it is somebody else’s culture?
Perhaps we should become more understanding and tolerant of Child Marriages which are perfectly acceptable in some cultures.

Were we wrong to put a stop to the practice or Suti in parts of India where a wife was forced to throw herself alive onto her husband's funereal pyre? After all, we were interfering in their culture and refusing to be tolerant towards their Religious Beliefs.

I heard some very good points made not 24 hours ago by a young Muslim scholar.
Mohammed taught that non-believers should be allowed to become Muslim by choice and never under duress, and that non-believers should not therefore be forced to follow Muslim beliefs.
That being so then the people who publish the Cartoons, being non-believers, are perfectly at liberty to do so. It is only when Muslims do the same that they, as Muslims, act against the teachings of Mohammed.

A counter argument was put by another Muslim that our sometimes irreverent treatment of Jesus and God was also, to a certain degree, also disliked by some Muslims.

I recall a Muslim Leader in Bradford some years ago forming a group which I suspect may well have become eventually the more moderate Muslim Council.

He and his group demanded, and were involved in discussions with the then Government about the possibility of, the setting up of a Muslim Parliament which would pass it’s own Sharia Laws for the Muslims of Great Britain.
Although the idea was eventually turned down it was, for quite a while, under serious discussion in Westminster.

Such a thing could never happen in Britain, could it?

jjc
11-Feb-06, 22:23
Are we to tolerate that simply because it is somebody else’s culture? Hang on a second Jaws, take a breath and think about what I am saying rather than what you’d like me to have said.

I’m not saying that people should be free to walk the streets of Thurso, slashing their child’s head with a machete in honour of their religion any more than I think that they should be able to walk down the street beating their children with a big stick.

I am simply questioning Landmarker’s (continued) attempt to incite fear of Muslims – this time by suggesting that we are about to see hordes of blood-soaked men marching down the High Street and slashing their scalps in a religious furore.


Perhaps we should become more understanding and tolerant of Child Marriages which are perfectly acceptable in some cultures. Do you think so? I wouldn’t have thought so myself, but then that would be why I didn’t ever suggest that we should.

Really Jaws; that was a ridiculous comparison even for you. Next you’ll be implying that I think we should tolerate subjugation of women.


Were we wrong to put a stop to the practice or Suti in parts of India where a wife was forced to throw herself alive onto her husband's funereal pyre? Wow! I must be psychic. [disgust]



…the possibility of, the setting up of a Muslim Parliament which would pass it’s own Sharia Laws for the Muslims of Great Britain. A hat-trick – I am impressed. We’ve had child marriages, suppression of women and now the spectre of Sharia Law taking over in Britain… It’s like having the Mail on Sunday condensed down into a single post.


Such a thing could never happen in Britain, could it? Of course it could – we live in a democracy.

Do I think we will ever see it happen in Britain? No, I do not. Do I think that we should listen to the racist fear-mongers (like Nick Griffin (http://www.bnp.org.uk/news_detail.php?newsId=674)) who try to tell us that it is more than a theoretical possibility? No, I absolutely do not.

wickerinca
11-Feb-06, 23:14
You lot make my head spin.

I accept that there has to be the freedom to follow one's religion of choice no matter where you live but...and this is the big but........what happens when it clashes with the cultural norms for the society in which you have made your home (Not good grammar I know but it is hard to put into words). Western society as a rule, frowns upon arranged marriages, subjugation of women, child marriages etc etc. When I resided in a Muslim country I did not go out showing my shoulders, legs, hardly any bits of me at all in fact. I did not go out alone and I didn't drive when off-camp. I respected their religion and tried not to cause offence. I didn't start trying to get them all drunk and eating a bacon butty before dragging them to church on a Sunday morning!!

Maybe it is because I am not religious that I find it difficult to understand the reasonings of fanatics..no matter what their religion is!

And what happens when the religion causes the laws of the country to be broken. What about the kidnapping of a daughter because she is seeing someone who is not acceptable to the family? Who stands up and talks for her?

This is a whole can of worms and we can discuss it until we are blue in the face and we will never all agree....but if you are tired of the subject don't read the thread any longer. Leave it to the ones who are interested in what people have to say about the subject:grin:

JAWS
12-Feb-06, 00:32
I'm not playing that game jjc. People can read my post and make their own decisions whether I am predicting the end of Britain as we know it.
I did not intimate that you were suggesting any of the things I mentioned and I doubt anybody else thought I was.

I hardly think what I have said will encourage people to mass on the streets or attack and burn Mosques.

Every instance I have quoted is factually correct. I also suggest you carefully read the section I wrote about the views expressed by perfectly sane and moderate Muslims. Unless what they say is also intended as some sort of incitement to hatred of Muslims.

All I have done is point out that taking the view that we must not interfere with the Beliefs and Customs of others can be in direct conflict with our own Beliefs and Customs.
At some stage a decision has to be made by both sides to where a line is drawn to prevent each side from transgressing against the other.
I would rather it be done by reasonable people arriving at some sort of agreement.
If this is not done then yes, it most likely will move to mobs on the streets, just as similar types of dispute have within living memory.
Rocks and Petrol Bombs have a tendency to solve absolutely nothing and to inflame everything.

If trying to prevent that from eventually happening is to be an Extremist then I plead "Guilty as Charged".
I prefer to try and see what might happen and try to prevent it rather than adhering to the method of refusing to consider it until I am crushed beneath it.

Accusing somebody of Arson just because they shouted, "Fire" is not the most sensible thing to do. Neither is sitting and watching the Fire until it is totally out of control before tackling it a sensible move.

And to clarify, Nick Griffin I had to check on to find you were referring to the BNP. I read none of the Sunday Papers or even the National Papers so I would not know what they advocate as some seem to. I do not need to be hand fed what I should believe. Neither will I make one final decision because circumstances constantly change and those who behave reasonably today might just become totally outrageous tomorrow.
Extremists are the ones who decide that there is only one correct viewpoint and no other.

jjc
12-Feb-06, 01:46
Jaws,

Frankly, I have yet to get over the boredom of the last time that you and I went round for round with "I didn't say that", "you said this" and "you meant the other". Besides, it is counterproductive to the points that either of us might be trying to make. So I hope you’ll forgive me for saying that I have no intention of starting again now.

Whatever you say now, your intent was clearly to suggest that if I were to turn a blind eye to Shi’a Muslims self-flagellating in the street (which, I might add, is not something I have said I would do) then I’d also turn a blind eye to child abuse and the abuse of women. I am more than happy to discuss the subject with you, but I’m not prepared to waste my time knocking down these ridiculous straw-men time and time and time again – besides, we only end up getting annoyed with each other over what we imagine the other to have said and I have better things to waste my energy on than that.

Happy hunting – I hope you find your next target to be a little more accommodating than I intend to be here.

Regards,

JJC

JAWS
12-Feb-06, 03:13
jjc, I would never expect you to turn a blind eye to any of those things, in fact I would be one of the most surprised if you did. I rather suspect it would take somebody with far greater persuasive powers than me to get people to even give a moments thought to such an idea.
Like you I do not foresee self-flagellating Muslims or followers of any other Religion on the streets of Britain.

Child Brides I have never heard of in Britain. Abuse of women I have heard of on rare occasions, the law has taken it's course, the culprits punished and, with the exception of those directly involved most Muslims, especially those brought up here, have been as disgusted as the rest of the population.
I have never heard any Muslim Leader of any standing suggest that it should be permitted in Britain.

But when we permit the more extreme Muslim Fundamentalists to behave, unchallenged, as if they spoke for the majority of Muslims and to misuse their Religion as an excuse does nobody and favours. It certainly gives a distorted view of the vast majority of Muslims who become tarred with the same brush.

I would have the same view if it were extreme Christian Fundamentalists behaving in a similar fashion to abuse the tolerance of a moderate Muslim Country.

The time comes when an agreement has to be reached of thus far and no further. That time may not yet have arrived, I do not know. But I do know that when it does, if it is allowed to pass and nothing continues to be done then resentment will build and build on one side or the other until real problems start to show and by then it might well be too late to back track.

That is my fear. I care not at what level an agreement is reached provided it is satisfactory to all involved. Which side claims the "Victory" afterwards is irrelevant because the real victors are the vast majority of people who want to live their lives at peace with their neighbours.

I have a feeling that what we both wish to see is a society which is at peace with itself and tolerant of others beliefs and customs. What we disagree on is how it can best be achieved.

Gleber2
12-Feb-06, 05:35
If it could have been forseen by the Rulers of the Roman Empire that the whole world would be dominated by a small,modern Jewish cult called Christianity,would they have pursued the persecition of the aforementioned to it's ultimate conclusion and thus created a different world? The Taleban was only a part of the Afghani people but they more or less took over the country and imposed Islamic law to the utmost,giving the majority little choice but to fight.Not all Palestinians are terrorists but now Hamas rules the country and their aims and desires could well lead to more bloodshed.
I am not,by any manner of means,anti- Muslim but history has many examples of overlooked minorities taking power and creating mahem,the Nazis and the Marxists for example. Jaws,I believe to be speaking hypothetically when he expresses his fear for the future and I cannot help but see his arguement and agree with his picture of the possibilities in the future. This does not make me anti- Muslim here and now but I will continue to look for the warning signs that Jaws's paranoia has some substance to it.I hope that he is wrong.

JAWS
12-Feb-06, 06:12
Gleber2, even I hope I'm wrong, in fact I hope I am very wrong. In truth I do not see anything like what I have suggested ever actually happening but if the possibility is totally ignored we might just walk blindly into it.
To point out the possibility is not necessarily to either want it or encourage it, nor is it an invitation for the mobs to take to the streets.

As for paranoia, I am assured by a very good Psychiatrist that I definitely do not suffer from paranoia.
He went on to add that, in fact, everybody was out to get me, and what's more, he was of the opinion that I was absolutely disserving of it!

I don't think he liked me! :cry: