'Dem Africans'....

[percy toboggan]

I used to pass through Edmonton often. In the eighties. It was not an attractive place back then. The hideous aterial 'North Circular Road' slices right through it. It's busy , noisy and unattractive and I never lingered long.

Today it seems there are more reasons not to dawdle. Gang culture has taken hold of the North London suburb and they are enlisting eleven and twelve year olds to hold guns and deliver drugs.

'Dem Africans' is apparently one such gang. They have been identified as allegedly complicit in the murder of one Henry Bolombi....who was stabbed to death recently.

This suggests that the menace of gangs is heading northward. Time yet for Caithness to breathe easy but I did find the BBC radio report of this phenomenon rather disturbing.

Apparently the youngsters find 'love' within the gang. People who will 'stand' for them...even going so far as to 'shank' anybody who 'dis-respects' them. (Shank = stab incidentally)

Tribal warfare...albeit presented in western terms is alive and shanking on our streets. Another example of the melting-pit which is simmering just below the surface in our major connurbations. I'm not sure the multi-cult delivers benefits which far outweigh the negatives but if you can think of any please let me know.

Do gangs exist yet, in Sutherland, or Caithness? 'Dem Weekers' or
'Uz Tonguers'...perhaps the 'Bettyhill Mob' ...you do not know how lucky you are.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_7773000/7773718.stm

[david]

I used to pass through Edmonton often. In the eighties. It was not an attractive place back then. The hideous aterial 'North Circular Road' slices right through the place. It's busy and I never lingered long.

Today it seems there are more reasons not to dawdle. Gang culture has taken hold of the North London suburb and they are enlisting eleven and twelve year olds to hold guns and deliver drugs.

'Dem Africans' is apparently one such gang. They have been identified as allegedly complicit in the murder of one Henry Bolombi....who was stabbed to death recently.

This suggests that the menace of gangs is heading northward. Time yet for Caithness to breathe easy but I did find the BBC radio report of this phenomenon rather disturbing.

Apparently the youngsters find 'love' within the gang. People who will 'stand' for them...even going so far as to 'shank' anybody who 'dis-respects' them. (Shank = stab incidentally)

Tribal warfare...albeit presented in western terms is alive and shanking on our streets. Another example of the melting-pit which is simmering just below the surface in our major connurbations. I'm not sure the multi-cult delivers benefits which far outweigh the negatives but if you can think of any please let me know.

Do gangs exist yet, in Sutherland, or Caithness? 'Dem Weekers' or
'Uz Tonguers'...perhaps the 'Bettyhill Mob' ...you do not know how lucky you are.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_7773000/7773718.stm

I realise how lucky we are up here. More reason to leave the A9 North of Inverness as it is if you ask me.

[Sapphire2803]

The Bettyhill Mob? Is that anything like the Anthill Mob?

I don't think any of this is anything to do with our "multicultural society". Although that does give the gangs one more reason to fight.

It has become the done thing for both parents to work.
We have become a consumer society. Now it is seen as all important that little John/Jane has the latest games console and designer clothes. We wouldn't want them to be picked on at school now would we? On the other hand we also have parents who's career is the most important thing to them. You know the one's I mean, they buy presents as their way of showing love.
Everybody seems to think it's incredibly important to own property. Why? You can't take it with you. My grandparents (and most people they knew) didn't own their houses, they rented. Buying property was something that only upper class people did. People are so incredibly focussed on buying houses, cars, clothes etc. and they'll defend this behaviour too.

So who's at home bringing up the children? Teaching right from wrong? Showing them how loved and valued they are?

There is no community any more either, it's much better up here, but down south? especially in large housing estates you can for the most part forget it.
We are raising a generation of latch key kids who find their own "family" in the shape of gangs.

In Africa they say it takes a village to raise a child.

They don't have gangs of obnoxious teenagers hanging around on street corners.

[percy toboggan]

The Bettyhill Mob? Is that anything like the Anthill Mob?

I don't think any of this is anything to do with out "multicultural society". Although that does give the gangs one more reason to fight.

It has become the done thing for both parents to work.
We have become a consumer society. Now it is seen as all important that little John/Jane has the latest games console and designer clothes. We wouldn't want them to be picked on at school now would we? On the other hand we also have parents who's career is the most important thing to them. You know the one's I mean, they buy presents as their way of showing love.
Everybody seems to think it's incredibly important to own property. Why? You can't take it with you. My grandparents (and most people they knew) didn't own their houses, they rented. Buying property was something that only upper class people did. People are so incredibly focussed on buying houses, cars, clothes etc. and they'll defend this behaviour too.

So who's at home bringing up the children? Teaching right from wrong? Showing them how loved and valued they are?

There is no community any more either, it's much better up here, but down south? especially in large housing estates you can for the most part forget it.
We are raising a generation of latch key kids who find their own "family" in the shape of gangs.

In Africa they say it takes a village to raise a child.

They don't have gangs of obnoxious teenagers hanging around on street corners.

In Edmonton it takes a child to raze a car.
The multi-cultural aspect does not really apply here as these gangs seem determined to fight with their own kind. They think the law will not be as hard upon them if they 'shank' another black boy/man.
Do they not do 'obnoxious' teenagers in Africa then? I'll take your word for it. There's a world of difference between a truculent teen and one who might stab someone because they accidentally stood on their girlfriends foot at some shindig, or looked at them ever so slightly askance.

There is sense in some of what you are saying Sapphire but it's too late I'm afraid to try to adjust these societal trends. We have large swathes of our cities ruled by some kind of crazy youth macho culture who flout all forms of authority and education. They are dis-connected from the rest of us...the rump of society who merely look on in resigned dis-belief...equally disconnected from them..... who many of us regard as almost an alien life form with their own rules, a sub-culture and language of their own. We've been here before but this is malevolent. Ted's grew out of it...Mods and Rockers became teen and twenties Dad's or football hooligans...

The childhood which these teenagers are graduating from bears no resemblance to what many of us have experienced. They are beyond feral. Is the answer to combat them, or leave them in their ring fenced squalour to divvy up their area as they see fit?

I must add that the majority of people in Edmonton...of whatever background or ethnicity are probably as decent and law abiding as most of the rest of us are.I feel so sorry for them to have to put up with this kind of environment.

[Sapphire2803]

Sense in some of what I'm saying? Take that back young man you'll ruin my reputation for talking complete drivel at all times!!

Anyway....

No, I think you'll find that if you go to a rural village in Africa where they live pretty much the way they have for centuries, that the children you will find there are well behaved, respectful, eager to learn etc. etc.
You'll also find that they are hard working, they know where their food comes from and they know how much hard work goes into bringing it to the table.

The problems in this country stem from many things and I'll try to cover a few as quickly as possible:

In world war 2, a lot of fathers went to war and didn't come back. That left a generation of children with a shortage of fathers and father figures. The boys of that generation grew up to be the Teddy boys you speak of, when they came to be fathers, a lot of them had nothing to base their fathering on. There was also an air of rebellion at that time which also stemmed from the war and more to the point the rationing. Which is where this consumer society started.
Labour saving devices became more widely available and a lot cheaper, children were encouraged to be carefree and playful, whereas previously they had also had to do their fair share of work thereby learning the work ethic. At the same time we gradually became more and more of a welfare state. So instead of the work ethic they began to learn that if you do nothing, someone else will do it for you and the government will pay you anyway.
In the 70s and early 80s we had strikes galore, respect for the ruling classes went out the window and respect for authority went with it.

Ok I'm bored of typing so I'll finish with this:

We are now bouncing between the children of the dole scroungers (no I don't mean honest folk who end up on benefits) who believe that the world owes them a living and the children of the yuppies and their ilk who are just looking for somewhere they feel that they belong and are loved. The second group remind me of the kids who went to Bedales school when I was growing up (about half a mile from the sodding place). They were a pain in the ass. They boarded at the school, parental love consisted of money and presents and they spent their time drinking and generally making a nuisance of themselves. A brash, arrogant lot most of them were too.
The common link of course being lack of parental guidance and interest.

There are a lot of kids out there who turn out just fine though and that's something we rarely hear about.

[squidge]

Its always easy to blame it on working parents but actually its probably more likely that gangs exist in an area where unemployment is high and aspirations and expectations are low. Where poverty and poor housing is an issue, where there is little else for kids to do, where drugs are prevalent and where young people are already disaffected and ignored. AS for working parents Sapphire asks the question who is at home to teach the children right from wrong and how loved and valued they are - lets see - you CAN be a working parent AND love support and be a good role model to your children. Maybe you have to work harder than a stay at home parent to do so but to suggest that parents who both work are showing a lack of parental guidance and interest is not fair.

The reasons why young people get involved in gangs are varied and include the lack of an adult role model, family breakdown, bullying, fear, the need for excitement, boredom, peer pressure or to improve their status. Drawn into the world of the criminal these gangs quickly deteriorate into violence and lawlessness. If indeed they are Disconnected from the rest of us then arent we responsible for that in some way?

Percy asks what can be done - There are initiatives all over the country tackling these things - through education, training and support by police, youth offending teams and differnt agencies, The XLP project is one http://www.centreforsocialjustice.org.uk/default.asp?pageRef=199 These are the only ways in which we will make in roads into gangs and prevent more young people being sucked into a life of violence ormaybe no life at all.

[Sapphire2803]

Sorry, I'm finding it difficult to get my point across clearly without writing a 5 page essay.

I don't mean ALL working parents, otherwise the problem would be much greater. I'm a working parent myself. I do however feel that pushing single parents out to work is going to make things worse in the long run.

You talk about there being nothing for children to do, but what was there for children to do in the 30s for instance, but they didn't have the problems that we have now.

Housing estates and high rises which have been built (also in part due to the war) have played a huge part in destroying communities. People are more likely to move away from their families. All these factors mean that parents and children have a much smaller support network now than they ever did.

[A9RUNNER]

Parental support and teaching respect by example to children is important. It doesnt matter how well off you are or how upper class you may think you are. Many kids from all sorts of backgrounds are attracted to gang culture. No money or loads of money it makes no difference these kids are missing something important if they are joining these gangs. Treat you kids well and make them part of family life dont stick them in front of a TV all day to make your life easier. Spend time with them encourage them when they do well and punish them when they do wrong. Encourage them to have hobbies and healthy activities. A child (teenager) that is hanging on street corners taking drugs/drink having underage sex is most likely not a member of the scouts/army cadets/karate/swimming club. They are bored and are letting of steam with no responsible adult guiding them. You reap what you sow in life and that incudes how your children grow up. there maybe is the case where no matter what you do your kid is going to be bad but I think that is very very rare. Most kids I have met have quite a lot of goodness in them even the ones that are branded as bad.

[brokencross]

The Bettyhill Mob? Is that anything like the Anthill Mob?

I don't think any of this is anything to do with our "multicultural society". Although that does give the gangs one more reason to fight.

It has become the done thing for both parents to work.
We have become a consumer society. Now it is seen as all important that little John/Jane has the latest games console and designer clothes. We wouldn't want them to be picked on at school now would we? On the other hand we also have parents who's career is the most important thing to them. You know the one's I mean, they buy presents as their way of showing love.
Everybody seems to think it's incredibly important to own property. Why? You can't take it with you. My grandparents (and most people they knew) didn't own their houses, they rented. Buying property was something that only upper class people did. People are so incredibly focussed on buying houses, cars, clothes etc. and they'll defend this behaviour too.

So who's at home bringing up the children? Teaching right from wrong? Showing them how loved and valued they are?

There is no community any more either, it's much better up here, but down south? especially in large housing estates you can for the most part forget it.
We are raising a generation of latch key kids who find their own "family" in the shape of gangs.

In Africa they say it takes a village to raise a child.

They don't have gangs of obnoxious teenagers hanging around on street corners.

Very well put. I realise you are not pointing the finger at all working parents, but there are a certain group to whom your observations DO apply.

[squidge]

Thanks Sapphire - its much clearer now. Simple solutions are really going to work. the Scout, Guides and Karate club thing isnt always appealing. Sometimes you have to be more creative and think more widely to pull children back from being involved with gangs. You have to offer them something which replaces the thrill of the "danger" with the thrill of something else.

Forcing any parent to work or to stay at home is not a good thing. Parents, whether they be single or couples need to be able to do whats best for their family. Those families struggling need to be able to draw on help to allow them to build a strong foundation for their children. As a society we need to teach people how to discipline and reward their children so that they grow up to be nice kids to be around. If a person hasnt a good family history - how do they learn to be a good parent? How do they know how to hold their nerve? There are many many parents who cannot deal with a badly behaved two year old - what on earth will they do when they have a badly behaved 15 year old. I am currently back in the realms of the toddler group :roll: and it amazes me how some wee ones behave. As an old mum i have the luxury of knowing that however bad these kids are at 2 their parents haven't seen anything until they try to stop their 16 year old going out when they want to. If we cant help parents to control babies we cant expect them to control teenagers. There are some initiatives aimed at doing just that and that's where we should be starting.

[percy toboggan]

Mention of the sons of fathers who 'didn't come back' from either of the two world wars is somewhat incongruous within this thread.

All the social theorising and hand wringing is clearly missing the point. Of course our own youth has it's problems but what we are faced with in areas of London , Nottingham and a few other cities is a bourgeoning population of second, and third generation immigrants who, unlike their parents and grand-parents are no longer just happy to be here.

They feel stuck between a rock and a hard place. In a way I have some sympathy.For too many within their culture Fatherhood seems a dirty word, and hard work an abstract concept. They are far more interested in the something for nothing approach to life.

The gang offers protection and protection brings affection. They call themselves 'soldiers' and in their barely literate way honour their 'fallen' on websites , and in scrawled messages, often in text speak attached to sprays of flowers at the many death scenes.

I've already acknowledged an ever present gang culture here in Britain....but this lot are murderous in intent and deed. The casual approach to 'shanking'...the tendency to gang rape suggests a beyond feral mentality. Apparently, it has parallel's in the Empire's second city too.

I know not what we do to combat this save building more prisons and, as announced in Glasgow recently offering gang-members education and training, they must accept it - otherwise the slogan is 'trail 'em; nail 'em; jail 'em. Given that Govan and the like are very different to the streets of North London the same approach could still work in the metropolis.

Politicians brought about this dis-affected minority in the name of cheap labour , well the dis-connected in their midst ain't 'labour' anymore, so the problem needs some attention or another generation will be sucked into the futility of gang violence and allegiance.