View Full Version : Shannon Matthews
So Karen Matthews has been found guilty of kidnapping her own daughter, it's just beyond comprehension that someone could do that to their own child, i hope she receives a very lengthy prison sentence for this.
OMG!! Really?! That is just incredible, she must be a monster to do that to her own child.
What she did is disgraceful. Also, the fact she wasted police and citizens time when she knew where she was. Ridiculous. Lengthy sentence indeed!
rockchick
04-Dec-08, 16:14
The search for her daughter cost the tax-payer upwards of £2.5 million. Too bad they can't make Ms. Matthews pay that back!
Most of us obviously have quite different feelings for our children but I feel sorry for all the children who don't have caring parents and there seems to be so many of them.
Also I don't understand how she thought she could claim the reward money.
AfternoonDelight
04-Dec-08, 16:28
The search for her daughter cost the tax-payer upwards of £2.5 million. Too bad they can't make Ms. Matthews pay that back!
What - out of her benefits? We'd be paying for it anyway cos I'm sure that piece of scum has never worked a day in her life! :roll:
How could she kidnap her own daughter for extra holiday money? and wated so much taxpayers' money earching for her little girl that she already knew where she is? too bad
Is it the fact that these cases now get more media attention or is there a real increase in the sick and twisted parent club? These people are beyond all reasonable understanding to me.
She should rot for what she did. people that use kids for cash deserve all that they get.
Dont know how she could do it especially with her then boyfriend now found ou to be a paedo. hope shannon and the rest of the kids get well looked after now that she is going down.:evil
Also I don't understand how she thought she could claim the reward money.
What has been reported from the trial is that Micheal Donovan was going to release Shannon at a local market, then claim to have found her and collect the reward money, he was then going to split it with Karen Matthews, to think that a scam like that might actually work just goes to show the level of intelligence that pair actually have, at least Shannon is now out of harms way, Mum a kidnapper and Mums partner a Pedophile....what a wonderful family eh?
Sadly children in care generally do very badly in the UK so I'm not optimistic for Shannon and her siblings, especially with a background like that. The figures for abused children in the UK are quite shocking but I suspect the reason social workers are reluctant to put them in care is that they get moved around, have little education, are thrown out at an early age with no support and many finish up in prison. Apparently in Germany they do much better but - they put a lot more money into children's homes etc.
Until we start to take the care and education of young children seriously, we will continue to have feral teenagers and overcrowded prisons. What kind of adults will the Matthews children become with Karen as a mother and a series of useless men as role models?
rockchick
04-Dec-08, 18:07
What has been reported from the trial is that Micheal Donovan was going to release Shannon at a local market, then claim to have found her and collect the reward money, he was then going to split it with Karen Matthews, to think that a scam like that might actually work just goes to show the level of intelligence that pair actually have, at least Shannon is now out of harms way, Mum a kidnapper and Mums partner a Pedophile....what a wonderful family eh?
Not that I'm defending the kidnapping scum at all for what they have done, but I don't believe there was any accusation that Shannon had been sexually abused by her abductor. A kidnapper yes, but paedophile no.
Unless I missed this part of the news?
The kidnapper wasn't her mums partner.
Not that I'm defending the kidnapping scum at all for what they have done, but I don't believe there was any accusation that Shannon had been sexually abused by her abductor. A kidnapper yes, but paedophile no.
Unless I missed this part of the news?
Karen Matthews partner Craig Meehan was convicted a few months ago of possessing child pornography, i was refering to him in my post, not Michael Donovan who was convicted of the kidnapping.
rockchick
04-Dec-08, 18:27
Oh that makes sense...thanks for clearing that up.
Wonder what's going to happen to Shannon now, if Mom and Uncle are in jail, and step-dad's a pervert?
Most of us obviously have quite different feelings for our children but I feel sorry for all the children who don't have caring parents and there seems to be so many of them.
Also I don't understand how she thought she could claim the reward money.
By what I saw on the news what they intended to do was this. Michael Donovan was to realease her in a Shopping Centre and then shortly after Find her. He then was to take her to the police and claim the reward money and afterwards him and Karen to split the Reward. This is what I heard on SKY News but I do not know how accurate this is.
Anyway I hope that Karen gets a Good Long Stay in Prison for what she tried to do, I am sure the other inmates will give her a BIG Welcome.
Oh that makes sense...thanks for clearing that up.
Wonder what's going to happen to Shannon now, if Mom and Uncle are in jail, and step-dad's a pervert?
Probably shoved in some childrens home, i'm unsure of the rules but i would imagine she is too old to be put up for adoption, i'm quite sure she will now be damaged goods and bring that into adolescence.
Probably shoved in some childrens home, i'm unsure of the rules but i would imagine she is too old to be put up for adoption, i'm quite sure she will now be damaged goods and bring that into adolescence.
There is still her Natural Father, he is still in the picture as he was on TV not long ago. So perhaps he will apply to get Custody of Shannon.
It's not just Shannon though, were there not 4 oe 5 other children also?
It's not just Shannon though, were there not 4 oe 5 other children also?
As far as I knew it was just Shannon, I have not heard of there being any other Children involved. If you know of anything different please post a link.
OOOPS I see what you mean now other Children in the Family, yes there are I believe. I thought you ment other Children Kidnapped, what a Silly Bear I am.
It's not just Shannon though, were there not 4 oe 5 other children also?
Karen Matthews has seven children from 5 different fathers, who in their right mind would want to get jiggy with that manky lookin' beast?, she reminds me of that Harry Enfield character Waynetta Slob :D
Karen Matthews has seven children from 5 different fathers, who in their right mind would want to get jiggy with that manky lookin' beast?, she reminds me of that Harry Enfield character Waynetta Slob :D
Could even be Vicky Pollard from Little Britain,she swapped her babies for a Westlife CD![lol]
connieb19
04-Dec-08, 19:20
It said on Radio 2 today that she had 5 kids by 7 different fathers!:eek::lol:
percy toboggan
04-Dec-08, 19:31
A police spokesman described Matthews as 'Pure Evil'
I disagree.
Labels like 'evil' should be reserved for the truly heinous.
This wretched woman is stupid,callous,devious, uneducated, promiscuous,
out of touch with reality and a terrible mother.
Evil? If she'd killed her daughter, or someone elses maybe.
She didn't:she's just incredibly stupid.....as daft as you can get without being certified.Nevertheless I hope she gets a minimum six year sentence.
She betrayed the emotions of her neighbours, family and friends.
The people on that estate might be as rough as a bears backside (some of 'em anyway) but they rallied to the Matthews cause and have every right to be as mad as hell at this sorry example of womanhood.
A police spokesman described Matthews as 'Pure Evil'
I disagree.
Labels like 'evil' should be reserved for the truly heinous.
This wretched woman is stupid,callous,devious, uneducated, promiscuous,
out of touch with reality and a terrible mother.
Evil? If she'd killed her daughter, or someone elses maybe.
She didn't:she's just incredibly stupid.....as daft as you can get without being certified.Nevertheless I hope she gets a minimum six year sentence.
She betrayed the emotions of her neighbours, family and friends.
The people on that estate might be as rough as a bears backside (some of 'em anyway) but they rallied to the Matthews cause and have every right to be as mad as hell at this sorry example of womanhood.
Totally agree with you Percy. Good post.
A police spokesman described Matthews as 'Pure Evil'
I disagree.
Labels like 'evil' should be reserved for the truly heinous.
This wretched woman is stupid,callous,devious, uneducated, promiscuous,
out of touch with reality and a terrible mother.
Evil? If she'd killed her daughter, or someone elses maybe.
She didn't:she's just incredibly stupid.....as daft as you can get without being certified.Nevertheless I hope she gets a minimum six year sentence.
She betrayed the emotions of her neighbours, family and friends.
The people on that estate might be as rough as a bears backside (some of 'em anyway) but they rallied to the Matthews cause and have every right to be as mad as hell at this sorry example of womanhood.
Can't disagree with any of that, i did think the 'Pure Evil' comment was a little bit over the top, but i never really thought more of it as we're so used to the press/police etc sensationalising things, 'Pure Evil' is Ian Huntly, not this thick manky slapper.
It said on Radio 2 today that she had 5 kids by 7 different fathers!:eek::lol:
Now there's a straight to Dvd movie waiting to be made :lol:
A police spokesman described Matthews as 'Pure Evil'
I disagree.
Labels like 'evil' should be reserved for the truly heinous.
This wretched woman is stupid,callous,devious, uneducated, promiscuous,
out of touch with reality and a terrible mother.
Evil? If she'd killed her daughter, or someone elses maybe.
She didn't:she's just incredibly stupid.....as daft as you can get without being certified.Nevertheless I hope she gets a minimum six year sentence.
She betrayed the emotions of her neighbours, family and friends.
The people on that estate might be as rough as a bears backside (some of 'em anyway) but they rallied to the Matthews cause and have every right to be as mad as hell at this sorry example of womanhood.
100% right Percy. My thoughts exactly. Good post;)
There is a Special Panorama Programme just starting on BBC 1 right now (8pm) about Shannon.
kitty kat
04-Dec-08, 21:16
A police spokesman described Matthews as 'Pure Evil'
I disagree.
Labels like 'evil' should be reserved for the truly heinous.
This wretched woman is stupid,callous,devious, uneducated, promiscuous,
out of touch with reality and a terrible mother.
Evil? If she'd killed her daughter, or someone elses maybe.
She didn't:she's just incredibly stupid.....as daft as you can get without being certified.Nevertheless I hope she gets a minimum six year sentence.
She betrayed the emotions of her neighbours, family and friends.
The people on that estate might be as rough as a bears backside (some of 'em anyway) but they rallied to the Matthews cause and have every right to be as mad as hell at this sorry example of womanhood.
they found traces of tamazapam in her hair samples dating back 2 years at least
this woman is not just 'stupid,callous,devious, uneducated and promiscuous that is revolting sitting back and seeing her daughter walk round in a haze for two years is evil that stuff is addictive and for that lengh of time that poor child. that was a pure evil deed she had been supplying a child her child with an addictive drug.
percy toboggan
04-Dec-08, 21:42
they found traces of tamazapam in her hair samples dating back 2 years at least
this woman is not just 'stupid,callous,devious, uneducated and promiscuous that is revolting sitting back and seeing her daughter walk round in a haze for two years is evil that stuff is addictive and for that lengh of time that poor child. that was a pure evil deed she had been supplying a child her child with an addictive drug.
I just fear you're in danger of rendering the English language impotent.
How do you describe Fred West? Adolf Hitler? Mengele and Himmler. I share your outrage but if you can embellish my vocabulary with appropriate terminology for the truly evil in our history AND our midst in the present day I'd genuinely appreciate it.
For I feel there are no degrees of 'evil' it's an umbrella term in my book for consigning the very worst of humanity to Satan and his hellhole, for though all of these are biblical concepts which exist only in the minds of believers they are useful terms for others who cannot quite cope with the enormity of the evil some men do. (and occassionally women). In my opinion this crackpot, inadequate woman is not bracketted with the very worst of humanity.
I've just finished watching Panorama, I can't understand why her mother would give her amitriptyline, temazepam, tramadol etc etc..?? and why for the last near two years.
Those houses were disgusting, dingy and filthy, social services could have and should have done more. I'm at a loss for words really, she's been found guilty and hopefully all of her kids will now be better off and safe.
I've just finished watching Panorama, I can't understand why her mother would give her amitriptyline, temazepam, tramadol etc etc..?? and why for the last near two years.
Just a Thought about Shannon being drugged for nearly 2 years.
I am not suggesting anything here but Karen Matthews Partner, Craig Meehan, was arrested and charged with dowloading Child Pornography.
Now why do you think anyone in that house would Drug a 9 year old Child.
Makes you wonder does it not????????????
There has been nothing about this case to laugh about, well except for one thing, the news clip of when the news comes through that Shannon has been found always makes me laugh, when the woman on the mobile phone who is getting the news says...'It's going round Asda it must be true' :lol: i think that pretty much sums up your whole social status when you think the most reliable news comes from what someone said in a supermarket.
The best way to describe the people of that estate is a phrase my old Woodwork teacher Mr Mackenzie used to describe most of my work....'As rough as a badgers tadger' :D
Just a Thought about Shannon being drugged for nearly 2 years.
I am not suggesting anything here but Karen Matthews Partner, Craig Meehan, was arrested and charged with dowloading Child Pornography.
Now why do you think anyone in that house would Drug a 9 year old Child.
Makes you wonder does it not????????????
A fair point, but one i'm sure that has been explored in great depth by the investigation team.
Is it the fact that these cases now get more media attention or is there a real increase in the sick and twisted parent club? These people are beyond all reasonable understanding to me.
That is exactly what i was wondering?
The worst thing is. After this drain on taxpayers money. We are now paying to keep her in prison. Which in a way backs up the "Should we bring back the death penalty" thread ;). Most cons nowadays are treated too well, what with games consoles, good food and comfy beds. We are paying for her to live in a bearable environment.
I hope Shannon lives a good life from now on.
A police spokesman described Matthews as 'Pure Evil'
I disagree.
Labels like 'evil' should be reserved for the truly heinous.
This wretched woman is stupid,callous,devious, uneducated, promiscuous,
out of touch with reality and a terrible mother.
Evil? If she'd killed her daughter, or someone elses maybe.
She didn't:she's just incredibly stupid.....as daft as you can get without being certified.Nevertheless I hope she gets a minimum six year sentence.
She betrayed the emotions of her neighbours, family and friends.
The people on that estate might be as rough as a bears backside (some of 'em anyway) but they rallied to the Matthews cause and have every right to be as mad as hell at this sorry example of womanhood.
Percy, much of what you write I agree with,
I believe, that little Sharon's mother was a sorry specimen of woman / and in perceived motherhood as we have have come to expect in todays society, unfortunately there are many just like her,unable to keep herself together let alone a family, living in housing schemes, seldom fit for human habitation, where unemployment is rife, and where despair rules the day.
The kind of place, many of us only ever read about in the national tabloids.
People in these places live every day on the edge of alcohol abuse, drug abuse, child abuse, in every colour under the rainbow
purple not being the only one.
I do not pity this woman, she knew right from wrong, she chose her own road,she will now pay for crime/s.
Her children, given time, care and a great deal of support will survive and take their place among the thousands of other children who have survived their childhood.
I do not believe that the commenters on this site or indeed any site are qualified in any way to berate the actions of Sharon's mother, the truth is that no-one, no-one knows what is around the corner, no -one can predict what they may or may not do in desparate circumstances, no -one can say, "I would not do anything like that" because no -one knows, how they would react in similar situations.
Kevin Milkins
05-Dec-08, 00:42
It said on Radio 2 today that she had 5 kids by 7 different fathers!:eek::lol:
I think it's called jobshareing;) after all she is a bit of a swamp donkey, and a task for any man.
kitty kat
05-Dec-08, 00:57
I just fear you're in danger of rendering the English language impotent.
How do you describe Fred West? Adolf Hitler? Mengele and Himmler. I share your outrage but if you can embellish my vocabulary with appropriate terminology for the truly evil in our history AND our midst in the present day I'd genuinely appreciate it.
For I feel there are no degrees of 'evil' it's an umbrella term in my book for consigning the very worst of humanity to Satan and his hellhole, for though all of these are biblical concepts which exist only in the minds of believers they are useful terms for others who cannot quite cope with the enormity of the evil some men do. (and occassionally women). In my opinion this crackpot, inadequate woman is not bracketted with the very worst of humanity.
Evil, meaning morally bad, harmful very unpleasent, wickedness, wicked deed
im sorry but a woman/man who fails her own child like this is scum to have your child tethered up through a hole in the ceiling keep her drugged for years have a peadophile live amongst her
this is evil not in the same as fred west etc she may not have killed her child but the way she has treated her and letting her friends, family and neighbours believe the child they love could be dead the pain she has caused others is evil how she can sit at night knowing all the people are crying thinking of what might have happened is evil to put pain on other people.
Fred West sadistic-gaining of sexual pleasure from inflicting pain Adolf Hitler racist Mengele Himmler followers also sadists
2little2late
05-Dec-08, 01:09
When Matthews and Donovan are sentenced they should have to serve the cost of the whole case from start to finish added on to their sentences, e.g. the 2 and a half million it cost the police force etc. plus no doubt a couple of million court costs. They should be made to do the time equivalent of these costs and then serve their actual prison sentence. It is the tax payer that pays for all these costs anyway, so what harm would it do to make this pair repay this debt by doing the time equivalent? I am sure we (the general public) will feel a wee bit easier knowing that at least this cruel pair are suffering even more for this wicked, nasty crime.
i blame lack o' fundin on 'e governments behalf.
in a way, wur lucky up here, in weik anyway, we hev a support system, such as pulteney toon peoples project. they hev staff who go aboot helpin people lek karen mathews til get their hoose sorted, manage their finance, teach til cook an lots o' different stuff.
doon in yon cities i guess its hard til keep a check on every child who suffers from neglect and abuse.
understaffed, under budgeted....cut backs everywhere. so many people, no enough cash in 'e pot.
ye can expect things lek 'iss til happen - its a shame :(
I think it's called jobshareing;) after all she is a bit of a swamp donkey, and a task for any man.
Kevin, that is an insult to swamp donkeys the world over :D
Kevin Milkins
05-Dec-08, 02:10
I don't do serious, but this case makes me think a bit about where we are going as a civilized society.
There does just not seem to be any natural instint to breed and look after our young any more in many parts of society.
In the real world of (dog eat dog and the survival of the fittest) we would not have social workers and the media or the nanny state saying you can't give your nipper a clout around the ear for being naughty.
As a nation we have become so uptight about protecting our youngsters that as parents, other peoples expectations have clouded sound judgment.
I think we are moving so far away from what nature intended us to be, we have lost the way slightly.
The Mathews family would, IMO be a porduct of a well meaning society that is going in the wrong direction
goldenguernsey
05-Dec-08, 02:56
Whatever happened to a mothers instinct/love for her children? That is the single most powerful immotive tool a woman posesses, her love for her children. It over rides any love for a man (sorry guys) or any love for anything in this world. Or at least it should.
Aaldtimer
05-Dec-08, 04:00
The thing that troubles me is that the child was drugged with a concoction of different substances over the period of two years, yet the teachers/social workers/whoever didn't notice??:(
kitty kat
05-Dec-08, 04:09
The thing that troubles me is that the child was drugged with a concoction of different substances over the period of two years, yet the teachers/social workers/whoever didn't notice??:(
you raise a really good point i never thought of before how come no teacher/ doctors etc noticed this child was on drugs
Mister Squiggle
05-Dec-08, 10:36
From what has been said on various news items, the drugging of Shannon took place at different times (ie. there were "spikes" shown in her test results that indicated times when drugs were used and periods during which they were not).
Also, the point has been made that these children were frequently absent from school, so monitoring of Shannon's condition (be it drugged or otherwise) would be difficult for school staff. Social services had made investigations into the family and commissioned psychiatric reports on the mother, which indicates they also were aware of potential problems and had concerns about the welfare of the children.
Without going into the whys and wherefores of who was aware of the family's lack of care for their children, I think the basic point was best made by the Police Chief on Panorama last night, when he said that sole responsibility must come back to Shannon's primary carer, the person who was best placed to look after her and should have always put her welfare and interests ahead of anything else: her mother.
No external agency (be it a school, a social work department, a worried neighbour) could have ever made any possible contingency against such a stupid, selfish and inherently disgusting act. I'm sure a lot of people (teachers, social workers, friends and neighbours) who knew the family are now wishing they'd done more, had raised more of a fuss, had consulted their crystal balls and run Shannon's mother over in their cars etc etc, but let's be honest, what can you possibly do when someone is so pathetic and borderline mad to arrange the staged abduction and drugging of her own daughter? Who could have foreseen that scenario?
The sole blame for this should lie squarely with the snivelling human-potato mutant who arranged it all.
Tellingly, the Police Chief also made the point that Shannon's mother still refuses to accept responsibility for the whole sorry mess. If the media are going to start shovelling blame on to the local social workers and schools, then they are perpetuating that kind of hand-wringing mentality that allows a dollop like this woman to keep deluding herself that she too is somehow a "victim".
percy toboggan
05-Dec-08, 17:17
Kevin: you should 'do' serious more often.
You too Mr.Squiggle.
The woman is an abberation and a blot on womanhood.
She is also stupid, loathsome and morally bankrupt.
A product of modern society which, as someone said is in danger of losing its way.
Now and again cases like this spring up and make us question our direction yet too often are forgotten as the next bit of bad news invades the front pages and the news bulletins.
i blame lack o' fundin on 'e governments behalf.
in a way, wur lucky up here, in weik anyway, we hev a support system, such as pulteney toon peoples project. they hev staff who go aboot helpin people lek karen mathews til get their hoose sorted, manage their finance, teach til cook an lots o' different stuff.
doon in yon cities i guess its hard til keep a check on every child who suffers from neglect and abuse.
understaffed, under budgeted....cut backs everywhere. so many people, no enough cash in 'e pot.
ye can expect things lek 'iss til happen - its a shame :(
Have to say I was thinking the same, people like Karen Matthews are in every town and city and yes we are lucky with the PPP and others like them.
Yes Sweetpea I do agree there are people like this in every city and every town but Why? Yes it is admirable that the PPP teach them to cook, manage their money, ect., and help them set up house but AT A COST where are the grannies, aunties and near family as I am sure in this day and age most mammies and grannies could contribute something to help their wayward offspring ? Were they ever taught how to clean and cook as children or what?No respect in schools, workplace or wherever
Long ago there was only one social worker for Caithness and Sutherland, now there are hundreds (maybe an exaggeration) but society has gone down a wery slippery path and expect everything off the state. This did not use to be the case in the North of scotland but it would appear that this trend is becoming more common.
Bring back the strap in school, nought wrong with a clout from your mammy or daddie if you had been naughty.Nowadays even the youngest will pip in I will report you to the Child Line..........
Well at least Sharron Matthews if finally working for the first time in her life - a cleaner at the prison.
forevera123
06-Dec-08, 12:46
feel very sorry for the little girl Shannon Matthews since she has such a stupid mum:(
I do not believe that the commenters on this site or indeed any site are qualified in any way to berate the actions of Sharon's mother, the truth is that no-one, no-one knows what is around the corner, no -one can predict what they may or may not do in desparate circumstances, no -one can say, "I would not do anything like that" because no -one knows, how they would react in similar situations.
Sorry, I have to react to this statement. Most mothers would fight tooth and nail for their children - NO MATTER WHAT THEIR CIRCUMSTACES. Protection of your cub is the most basic instinct. If she had sold drugs, got into prostitution, went shop lifting, i just might agree with your statement, but using her kid - sorry no.
A quick "double tap" to her and the monster who helped her.
The social services obviously werent doing their job. Its easy with hindsight to pick faults with organisations but someone has to be accountable. Just hope shannon and the rest of her brood get well looked after now that they are away from this despicable excuse for a human being.[evil]
Sorry, I have to react to this statement. Most mothers would fight tooth and nail for their children - NO MATTER WHAT THEIR CIRCUMSTACES. Protection of your cub is the most basic instinct. If she had sold drugs, got into prostitution, went shop lifting, i just might agree with your statement, but using her kid - sorry no.
i completely agree with you!Excellent!
Hmm it's a tricky one. Maybe the mum gene passed her bye and she never had it. Not all mothers are good.
Giving birth isn't a qualification, or a right.
Whatever sentence she gets she should be sterilised before her release.
percy toboggan
07-Dec-08, 13:35
A quick "double tap" to her and the monster who helped her.
Should I ever suffer the misfortune to be face to face with a 'monster' of malicious intent then I'd hope it would be one of the calibre of the dimwit Donovan. More maladroit than monster in my book, and more hopeless than monstrous.
Lock him away, he's no use to anyone least of all himself.
If you study the video's of her appealing you can just about see she is holding back the smirks from all this attention she is getting...
I would not like to be her when she starts her time...
Angel
i dare say she is going to get a nice warm welcome in prison...
You know one of the things bugging me about this whole thing is the fact her father has hardly been mentioned in the media and what I have seen has been quite sympathetic towards him.
Where was he when his daughter was being drugged ?
I know what her mum did is awful and completely unforgivable but if her dad was a good parent in regular contact then surely he would have noticed she was being drugged.
If he wasn't in regular contact he should have been.
Why is he not being made accountable for being a crap parent or an absent parent ?
You know one of the things bugging me about this whole thing is the fact her father has hardly been mentioned in the media and what I have seen has been quite sympathetic towards him.
Where was he when his daughter was being drugged ?
I know what her mum did is awful and completely unforgivable but if her dad was a good parent in regular contact then surely he would have noticed she was being drugged.
If he wasn't in regular contact he should have been.
Why is he not being made accountable for being a crap parent or an absent parent ?
To be fair to the guy, he did split up with Karen Matthews before Shannon was born. He also has two other kids. He has kept in touch with Shannon and she has visited him at his home, which is ten miles away. Apparently Shannon considered Craig Meehan to be her Father and it would not be fair to butt in at every whip and turn into a household that has been playing "Musical Dads" over the years and, in all likelihood, confusing matters even more for a young child with a family tree sporting more branches than a Giant Redwood. The main responsibility must be with the Mother, who is actually in the home with the child.
When her time comes, Karen Matthews will surely be buried in a Y-shaped coffin, as her legs have much in common with myself and the Queen, in that they have never met in private!!
Nope Scorrie I am sorry it doesn't wash with me, if he wasn't able to commit to care for her through thick and thin then he should have worn a condom.
He is not as bad as her mother but he is by no means blameless in this.
percy toboggan
08-Dec-08, 19:17
Confusion or not...any child of mine would know who her father was and I'd certainly know if she was being drugged or mistreated by a pair of numtpy's in a dump of a house(inside).
As soon as I read Craig Mehan was always 'cuddling and tickling' her (quote from the bint Karen) alarm bells rang and if it was my kid I'd have been a frequent visitor.
Mind you the thought of fathering a child via Matthews gives me nightmares.
The kid got the short straw when it came to parents and I just hope she is happy now - I'm sure she will be better off in a foster home long term.
by checkin oot 'e state o' karen matthews it wid appear that 'e bairns real dad probly isna muckle better...
i mean he impregnated karen in 'e first place....karen has borderline learnin difficulties so.....'e bie cana be 'at rite in 'e heid either...
so til expect him til take a proper 'fatherly' role in shannons life wid be a bit lek askin a dowg til flip a pancake....
choost no goin til happen.
But my point is as her father he had just as much responsibility to ensure her safety and wellbeing as her mother had.
They both let her down.
ye do hev a point starry aye, no denyin 'at...'e mither an faither are both responsible for 'e child.....but when ye hev two numpties creatin a life there are systems put in place til ensure 'e childs welfare remains paramount.
when wemin hev bairns they hev health visitors comin in an oot 'e hoose, who then report til 'e social work department. there are regular health checks, injections, weight monitorin sessions....
'people who are educated, trained and qualified let 'at bairn doon...ie 'e social work department, who are governed by who???
'e government!!!!!!
You know one of the things bugging me about this whole thing is the fact her father has hardly been mentioned in the media and what I have seen has been quite sympathetic towards him.
Where was he when his daughter was being drugged ?
I know what her mum did is awful and completely unforgivable but if her dad was a good parent in regular contact then surely he would have noticed she was being drugged.
If he wasn't in regular contact he should have been.
Why is he not being made accountable for being a crap parent or an absent parent ?
If Karen left him before Shannon was born then maybe it was her decision to keep him out of her life. Knowing Karen as we now do, who can be certain that he is the father anyway.
Nope Scorrie I am sorry it doesn't wash with me, if he wasn't able to commit to care for her through thick and thin then he should have worn a condom.
He is not as bad as her mother but he is by no means blameless in this.
Lots of people make mistakes, by all accounts the guy's other kids are polite and well behaved. It doesn't matter if it washes with you or not, there is no logical train of thought that can lead to the man being responsible in any way whatever for what happened to Shannon. Common sense dictates that the man will not face any punishment for that which is totally beyond his control and a lot of people need to come down off their high-horses and stop pointing the finger at people whom they know nothing about, other than the mud thrown about by the press, for simply being associated with Karen Matthews, who is a serial user of both men and children.
by checkin oot 'e state o' karen matthews it wid appear that 'e bairns real dad probly isna muckle better...
i mean he impregnated karen in 'e first place....karen has borderline learnin difficulties so.....'e bie cana be 'at rite in 'e heid either...
so til expect him til take a proper 'fatherly' role in shannons life wid be a bit lek askin a dowg til flip a pancake....
choost no goin til happen.
This is a very poor post trix, it is based on speculation only. I hope that, if you find yourself being judged one day, you get a fairer hearing from those involved. A lot of people could do with giving themselves a good look up and down before pointing the finger based on the crap that passes as journalism these days.
This is a very poor post trix, it is based on speculation only..
No more so than this one from you Scorrie.
.......
When her time comes, Karen Matthews will surely be buried in a Y-shaped coffin, as her legs have much in common with myself and the Queen, in that they have never met in private!!
The gutter press would have embraced that remark.
Do you envisage the coffin being made of glass?
So working on this train of thought are you saying a man has no responsibility to any children he fathers ?
I didn't say anything of the kind Starry. Whose train of thought are you following? :eek:
Lots of people make mistakes, by all accounts the guy's other kids are polite and well behaved. It doesn't matter if it washes with you or not, there is no logical train of thought that can lead to the man being responsible in any way whatever for what happened to Shannon. Common sense dictates that the man will not face any punishment for that which is totally beyond his control and a lot of people need to come down off their high-horses and stop pointing the finger at people whom they know nothing about, other than the mud thrown about by the press, for simply being associated with Karen Matthews, who is a serial user of both men and children.
I was replying to this Moira
i dare say she is going to get a nice warm welcome in prison...
You sound like you are revelling in that thought.
thanks moira ;)
what am tryin til say, is that...in an ideal world, aye, we'd all be lek toboggan. all bairns wid be lookt efter an 'e faithers wid all hev an active part in their childrens lives - take off yer rose tinted glesses ma friends...
people are hevin bairns that arna capable o' lookin efter themsels!!
its a recognised problem, 'e government ARE aware o' 'e situation.
we hev support networks, til assist people who have difficulties in copin wi everyday situations ie. hoosework, bairns, finances, social problems...
it is undoubtably, a requirement in our society.
however, as much as 'e government understand that it is a problem, they still arna doin enough.
little bairnies are sufferin....how many bairns hev til suffer, how many headlines....?? :~(
there choost isna enough £s in 'e pot. priorities hev til get sorted oot.
ye cana blame uneducated people, they dina know.
blame 'e people who DO know, who ARE aware....[evil]
no matter whose resposibility should be blamed for letting littlle Shannon down like this, just hope she will have a good start for her future life.:(
No more so than this one from you Scorrie.
The gutter press would have embraced that remark.
Do you envisage the coffin being made of glass?
Utter nonsense Moira. My comment is based on FACT. Karen Matthews HAS given birth to seven children, by either five OR six different fathers. That is beyond dispute and is entirely different to slating one of the fathers for not being able to be Superman and watch his daughter 24/7 whilst having other children and a different partner who are, by the very fact that they actually live with him, his main priority. Karen Matthews is going to Jail and hopefully for a long time, Y-shaped coffin is a term used to describe a woman of questionable virtue and I think it is fair to apply to a "woman" of Karen Matthews' moral standing. I suggest that you consider the difference between fact and speculation before trying to make one stand to mean the same as the other.
I agree with Scorrie... there is no way to say that Shannons dad should have known what was going on.
We dont know the circumstances, For all we know, Karen Matthews may have made visits between Shannon and her dad difficult... id think that as she was doing something as terrible as drugging her daughter, she would also try to hide this fact.
I dont have ANY contact with my Dad, and i havent for years.. it doesnt mean he is a bad person, and im sure he is a good Dad to his other kids...but whatever happens in my life, he cant get the blame OR THE PRAISE for it.
[QUOTE=trix;468220]thanks moira ;)
what am tryin til say, is that...in an ideal world, aye, we'd all be lek toboggan./QUOTE]
Moira to the rescue, HURRAH!!
What you DID say trix was:-
"by checkin oot 'e state o' karen matthews it wid appear that 'e bairns real dad probly isna muckle better...
i mean he impregnated karen in 'e first place....karen has borderline learnin difficulties so.....'e bie cana be 'at rite in 'e heid either..."
Where is the evidence to back your statement?
You make it sound like Karen Matthews was taken advantage of and did not know what she was doing, while the reality was that Shannon's father was merely having a "slice" of a "loaf" that had already been cut. In the film Breaker Morant, one of the characters was being disciplined by his regiment for having sex with a married woman and, in his defence, he said "Well, they say a slice off a cut loaf is not missed". If we take that analogy and apply it to Karen Matthews it seems safe to say that the loaf was not only already cut, but was down to two heels and a few crumbs by the time Shannon's father wielded his "breadknife"!
As for this statement:-
"in an ideal world, aye, we'd all be lek toboggan"
I feel certain that this would fill many people with dread. Nobody picks up the big tar brush and daubs sections of society more liberally and widely than Mr Luge. If you are coloured or on benefits, it is likely that you will feel the bristles sweep over you. Even if you are in work, it is probable that you are not doing your job properly and are a "disgrace to the country that Britain used to be" if your work happens to involve trying to sort out the mire that is Modern Britian. Maybe, if you are a coal-miner, had all your kids in wedlock, enjoy a good British pint with the lads down the club, come home to your white wife and still find time to consider the needs of your kids on a 24/7 basis, then perhaps you might qualify to enter the perfect circle of the sledgemeister and put the world to right from the perfection of your own little Ivory Tower.
percy toboggan
09-Dec-08, 18:16
thanks moira
what am tryin til say, is that...in an ideal world, aye, we'd all be lek toboggan.
Blimey !
At last I've said summat right ;)
Mind you , it would be a safer world for all concerned but it might be a bit too dull for some.....I'm usually in bed for 'alf-nine in't week.
Tonight I'm staying up late - Survivors. 10,000 people left in Britain and if they're all 'lek' me...it's the stuff of nightmares, and worse still nobody can run away from 'owt!:lol:
[quote=trix;468220]thanks moira
what am tryin til say, is that...in an ideal world, aye, we'd all be lek toboggan./QUOTE]
Moira to the rescue, HURRAH!!
What you DID say trix was:-
"by checkin oot 'e state o' karen matthews it wid appear that 'e bairns real dad probly isna muckle better...
i mean he impregnated karen in 'e first place....karen has borderline learnin difficulties so.....'e bie cana be 'at rite in 'e heid either..."
Where is the evidence to back your statement?
You make it sound like Karen Matthews was taken advantage of and did not know what she was doing, while the reality was that Shannon's father was merely having a "slice" of a "loaf" that had already been cut. In the film Breaker Morant, one of the characters was being disciplined by his regiment for having sex with a married woman and, in his defence, he said "Well, they say a slice off a cut loaf is not missed". If we take that analogy and apply it to Karen Matthews it seems safe to say that the loaf was not only already cut, but was down to two heels and a few crumbs by the time Shannon's father wielded his "breadknife"!
As for this statement:-
"in an ideal world, aye, we'd all be lek toboggan"
I feel certain that this would fill many people with dread. Nobody picks up the big tar brush and daubs sections of society more liberally and widely than Mr Luge. If you are coloured or on benefits, it is likely that you will feel the bristles sweep over you. Even if you are in work, it is probable that you are not doing your job properly and are a "disgrace to the country that Britain used to be" if your work happens to involve trying to sort out the mire that is Modern Britian. Maybe, if you are a coal-miner, had all your kids in wedlock, enjoy a good British pint with the lads down the club, come home to your white wife and still find time to consider the needs of your kids on a 24/7 basis, then perhaps you might qualify to enter the perfect circle of the sledgemeister and put the world to right from the perfection of your own little Ivory Tower.
poor post from ye scorrie...shakin ma heid ifanow.
moira til 'e rescue....? i hev intellegence an i hev an opinion, i da need rescued!
i didna even understan' much o' yer post...are ye comparin karen matthews til a loaf o' bried? sorry, but yer level o' intellengence hes gone either above me or below me....:confused
i hev evidence til back up ma statement scorrie, 'e evidence is that 'e faither isna involved in shannons life, IF he hed intellegence he widna be hevin unprotected sex, IF he hed intellegence he wid o' hed 'at bairn oot o' her home environment - if if if.....if yer auntie hed testicles she'd be yer uncle!
maybe he didna realise karen matthews hed a learnin difficulty, maybe he hed one himsel...or perhaps choost no very bright.
maybe 'e bairns faither didna hev a learnin difficulty an ran a mile when he realised she wisna choost all ayre....
it choost disna metter....ifs, buts an maybes :roll:
no guid enough!
'e fact is that 'e faither isna involved, 'iss is a common problem an somethin needs til be done til support single parents who cana cope, for 'e sake o' 'e poor bairnies.
am no claimin til ken 'e answer but theres only one body o' power who can help, but they are too busy employin pen pushers an sortin oot levels o' management while 'e public continues til suffer.
as for ma remark regardin perce, it wis in context til his previous post....which am sure ye are aware o' scorrie...levels o' intellegence an all 'at! ;)
northener
09-Dec-08, 23:18
Ooooh, never mind all this opinionated tosh, this is much more important:
http://www.gorillaenterprises.co.uk/upload/uploadFiles/shannon_plate.jpg
I was replying to this Moira
Ah ok Starry. Your post was directly below mine without a "quote". My mistake and my apologies.
Utter nonsense Moira. My comment is based on FACT.......
Fact? On whose authority are you assured that Karen Matthews will be buried in these terms?
"Originally Posted by scorrie;
.......
When her time comes, Karen Matthews will surely be buried in a Y-shaped coffin, as her legs have much in common with myself and the Queen, in that they have never met in private!!"
thanks moira ;)
what am tryin til say, is that...in an ideal world, aye, we'd all be lek toboggan............
Moira to the rescue, HURRAH!!
Hardly scorrie. Trix neither needs nor would appreciate being rescued by me.
toboggans are another entity. ;)
appreciated yer post all 'e same moira ;)
Ah ok Starry. Your post was directly below mine without a "quote". My mistake and my apologies.
No worries :)
Fact? On whose authority are you assured that Karen Matthews will be buried in these terms?
"Originally Posted by scorrie;
.......
When her time comes, Karen Matthews will surely be buried in a Y-shaped coffin, as her legs have much in common with myself and the Queen, in that they have never met in private!!"
What is your point Moira? You are simply waffling away from the real issue here. Karen Matthews has been convicted, it is self evident that she is guilty. The same cannot be said of Shannon's father, he faces no charges, neither should he. That is MY point and events prove that it sensible and correct. It is not fair to speculate about the mental status of someone whom you know nothing about or judge them harshly for one error. Plenty of women get pregnant and decide to have an abortion, the man has little or say in events. When it comes to separation of parents, the custody of the child is heavily weighted in the Mother's favour by Law. This makes it pretty hard for the father to interfere much in the upbringing of the child from out-with the child's new "Family home"
Trix's post was/is pure speculation and your replies in her "defence" amount to little more than pot stirring, in a pretty childish manner I might add.
What is your point Moira? You are simply waffling away from the real issue here. .........
Trix's post was/is pure speculation and your replies in her "defence" amount to little more than pot stirring, in a pretty childish manner I might add.
I'm not waffling at all - you are.
I don't need to "defend" Trix or anyone else here.
[quote=scorrie;468297]
poor post from ye scorrie...shakin ma heid ifanow.
moira til 'e rescue....? i hev intellegence an i hev an opinion, i da need rescued!
i didna even understan' much o' yer post...are ye comparin karen matthews til a loaf o' bried? sorry, but yer level o' intellengence hes gone either above me or below me....:confused
i hev evidence til back up ma statement scorrie, 'e evidence is that 'e faither isna involved in shannons life, IF he hed intellegence he widna be hevin unprotected sex, IF he hed intellegence he wid o' hed 'at bairn oot o' her home environment - if if if.....if yer auntie hed testicles she'd be yer uncle!
maybe he didna realise karen matthews hed a learnin difficulty, maybe he hed one himsel...or perhaps choost no very bright.
maybe 'e bairns faither didna hev a learnin difficulty an ran a mile when he realised she wisna choost all ayre....
it choost disna metter....ifs, buts an maybes
no guid enough!
'e fact is that 'e faither isna involved, 'iss is a common problem an somethin needs til be done til support single parents who cana cope, for 'e sake o' 'e poor bairnies.
am no claimin til ken 'e answer but theres only one body o' power who can help, but they are too busy employin pen pushers an sortin oot levels o' management while 'e public continues til suffer.
as for ma remark regardin perce, it wis in context til his previous post....which am sure ye are aware o' scorrie...levels o' intellegence an all 'at!
My post makes perfect sense. What you have written here amounts to Shannon's Father being guilty, simply for not wearing a condom and he is labelled unintelligent for the same reason. Perhaps he WANTED to have a child but things simply became unworkable and he felt it would be better for Shannon to grow up in a household free from the conflict of parents who were not getting on. As I have said already, the Law weighs heavily in favour of Mother's keeping the children in cases of separation. If Social Workers could not suss out a problem, how could a man who has another life to lead be expected to a) Raise the Alarm and b) Get sufficient support to gain custody of the child?
Unless I am mistaken, you are not a parent yourself. What do you actually know about what it takes to raise a family successfully? Until you have been there and experienced all the many complexities of life and the emotions involved, it is all too asy to label other people as failures and point the finger, shouting about what the SHOULD have done.
Karen Matthews being compared to a loaf of bread is a Metaphor. It is quite a common in the English Language to compare two things that are different in many ways but alike in one important way. I don't consider the concept to be particularly mysterious or hard to interpret and I am not booking a crash course in English in order to come "Up to speed" for the org ;)
I don't know about yourself, but when I read a post and admit to not understanding much of it, I normally refrain from labelling it as "Poor"
It is your prerogative, of course, to read something, confess to not understanding much of it, and then label it as poor.
As for "Bob Sleigh", no harm in taking a line that was ripe for the plucking and running with it for a bit of gentle banter.
I'm not waffling at all - you are.
I don't need to "defend" Trix or anyone else here.
Dear dear Moira, not much of a reply. I am putting some proper input into my replies, you are simply posting Na, na, na, na in response. I thought the whole point of the forum was putting your own opinion and reasoning behind it into the replies. Very disappointing behaviour indeed.
i think yer comparison o' karen an a loaf o' bried is a prity poor metaphor, i still da really understand it...
in regards til ma 'poor post' comment, it wis in relation til ye no kwite graspin ma point....yer last post emphasises this more so, an certainally more clearly than what was basically nothin but a waffle in a previous post.
not once hev i blamed shannons faither for any o' iss, iv made it kwite clear that i blame 'e goverment. not enough fundin, cut backs, short staffed, priorities mixed up.
i da even blame karen hersel! aye, she's a bad aine, no someone i wid hev anythin til do wi, but 'e lassie is ignorant. she disna stand a chance in 'e real world....
as for me no bein a parent, yer right aye, but i hev grown up masel in a stable background and clearly understand 'e requirements necessary til bring up a child. infact i probly ken more than ye cause i studyied child care at collage for 2 years :Razz
apart fie 'at scorrie, i hev what ye hev, somethin 'e majority o' people i ken hev, somethin that karen didna hev....i hev standards.
karen matthews is a statistic, 'e lassy obviously needed more support than she wis gettin.
lek i said before, if there must be blame then it must be 'e powers that be that are blamed.
i think yer comparison o' karen an a loaf o' bried is a prity poor metaphor, i still da really understand it...
in regards til ma 'poor post' comment, it wis in relation til ye no kwite graspin ma point....yer last post emphasises this more so, an certainally more clearly than what was basically nothin but a waffle in a previous post.
not once hev i blamed shannons faither for any o' iss, iv made it kwite clear that i blame 'e goverment. not enough fundin, cut backs, short staffed, priorities mixed up.
i da even blame karen hersel! aye, she's a bad aine, no someone i wid hev anythin til do wi, but 'e lassie is ignorant. she disna stand a chance in 'e real world....
as for me no bein a parent, yer right aye, but i hev grown up masel in a stable background and clearly understand 'e requirements necessary til bring up a child. infact i probly ken more than ye cause i studyied child care at collage for 2 years :Razz
apart fie 'at scorrie, i hev what ye hev, somethin 'e majority o' people i ken hev, somethin that karen didna hev....i hev standards.
karen matthews is a statistic, 'e lassy obviously needed more support than she wis gettin.
lek i said before, if there must be blame then it must be 'e powers that be that are blamed.
Just a wee query, do you think that because you suppose the woman was not all there then it is right that she should never have had a realationship?
Aaldtimer
10-Dec-08, 05:14
I must say that I'm absolutely amazes at this assumption that Karen Matthews is somehow sub-normal!
She is obviously well aware of how to exploit the welfare system.
Thoughtful enough to dream up an admittedly hair-brained scheme of "how to get rich quick".
Quite why the father of Shannon is being adjudjed to be of the same deficiencies is beyond me!
And Trix, your statement..."as for me no bein a parent, yer right aye, but i hev grown up masel in a stable background and clearly understand 'e requirements necessary til bring up a child. infact i probly ken more than ye cause i studyied child care at collage for 2 years"...is just laughable.
Until you're a parent you can never know the emotional bond that it creates.
As an aside, I'm assuming your spelling of "studyied " & "collage" is in the vernacular of your post.
Studying a subject does not necessarilly give you the skills to be adept in that subject. Many times I have come across people with lots of Qualifications/Certificates/Diplomas etc., but not an ounce of common sense to back them up, rendering their qualities next to useless.
The great betrayal of that emotional bond between Mother & Daughter is the most important issue here and I sincerely hope that Shannon gets the support and counselling she will need to recover from that...her natural Father may be a great resource in that recovery.
Scorrie, I don't know anyone here,so not sure if this is just your humour, but to a complete outsider some of your comments are really offensive, such as the Y Shaped Coffin and the whole bread cutting thing.
You are accusing other people of waffling but your posts come across as very far from clear and concise.
Re, the natural father, I don't think anyone ever said he should face charges, but I do believe that he had a moral obligation to his child, I am geniunely amazed that people feel fathers have no respsonbility.
In fact we do not know if
K Mathews had any learning disability.
If she made it difficult for Shannons father to remain in contact or if he just didn't bother.
If she used men or was used by them.
We do not know if the natural fathers other children are polite.
I'm not excusing K Mathews at all - I think Shannon will be far better off without her mother, and agree that she should be in jail.
But I don't think that there was evil stalking the estate, or similar, as the Daily Mail would have it.
I think that a very dim, misguided woman with little or no education decided to chance it, and got it all horribly wrong.
The great betrayal of that emotional bond between Mother & Daughter is the most important issue here and I sincerely hope that Shannon gets the support and counselling she will need to recover from that...her natural Father may be a great resource in that recovery.
Yes, I think that is exactly what chills me, it is the one person who is meant to protect you and she drugs you.
As a mother I will never ever understand how she could do this.
And I do hope she ends up in a happy home with her natural father, she will need lots of support of the next few years.
I do wonder how she will be able to return to anonymity, I know she will be protected by law as far as the press are concerned at the moment but will that change when she is 16 ?
I hate the idea of her recovering emotionally, hitting adulthood and being hounded by journalists trying to get her story.
i think yer comparison o' karen an a loaf o' bried is a prity poor metaphor, i still da really understand it...
in regards til ma 'poor post' comment, it wis in relation til ye no kwite graspin ma point....yer last post emphasises this more so, an certainally more clearly than what was basically nothin but a waffle in a previous post.
not once hev i blamed shannons faither for any o' iss, iv made it kwite clear that i blame 'e goverment. not enough fundin, cut backs, short staffed, priorities mixed up.
i da even blame karen hersel! aye, she's a bad aine, no someone i wid hev anythin til do wi, but 'e lassie is ignorant. she disna stand a chance in 'e real world....
as for me no bein a parent, yer right aye, but i hev grown up masel in a stable background and clearly understand 'e requirements necessary til bring up a child. infact i probly ken more than ye cause i studyied child care at collage for 2 years :Razz
apart fie 'at scorrie, i hev what ye hev, somethin 'e majority o' people i ken hev, somethin that karen didna hev....i hev standards.
karen matthews is a statistic, 'e lassy obviously needed more support than she wis gettin.
lek i said before, if there must be blame then it must be 'e powers that be that are blamed.
You made comments about Shannon Matthews natural father that were based on nothing other than speculation. That was poor crack in my opinion and was why I said that THAT particular post was poor. This seems to have elicited a "tit-for-tat" approach from yourself, labelling my posts as poor in return. Looking at your own grammar and spelling here, it seems pretty rich for you to label my metaphor as poor, particularly when you confess to not fully understanding it!!
I have been a parent for 17 years and the notion that your two years at "collage" gives you a greater understanding of childcare than me is a quite outrageous claim and one that will cut no ice with any sensible, unbiased, reader here. Dream on!!
I will explain the metaphor for those who don't understand it and/or find it offensive:-
When a loaf of bread comes out of an oven it is untouched, cut the first slice off it and it can never be "pure" again. Along comes someone else and cuts another slice off, soon after he has eaten his slice another guy comes along for one. Before you know it, the word is on the street that their is free bread going in the house and people are forming a queue, knives in hand. Eventually all that is left is the heels, which have turned stale and word has gone round that this particular loaf is only fit for the most starved individual.
I see nothing offensive whatever in that analogy. If a woman lives the life of a trollop she should expect some criticism. I wouldn't go round looking for such people in order to have a go at them but when someone does what Karen Matthews did to their own child, I think they become fair game for some comment. What I don't like is the inclusion of others, who played no part in the deed, for the same degree of stick because they are labelled "Chavs" or whatever.
There is plenty of offensive material on the net about both Karen Matthews and Shannon. I defend my comments as being a million miles away from that.
Karen Matthews may not be the sharpest sandwich in the picnic but she came across convincingly enough for a £3 million search to be launched. Emergency services were led a merry dance for 4 weeks and had it not been for a tip-off, who knows how long it would have taken for Shannon to be found? Even when inside the flat the Police nearly missed the fact that they were hiding under the bed!!
Karen Matthews is certainly intelligent enough to have known that what she was doing with her own child was totally wrong. It is self evident that this is true, because she was charged and found guilty. Had she been mentally incapable, she would not have faced the prison sentence which she will shortly receive.
Scorrie, I don't know anyone here,so not sure if this is just your humour, but to a complete outsider some of your comments are really offensive, such as the Y Shaped Coffin and the whole bread cutting thing.
You are accusing other people of waffling but your posts come across as very far from clear and concise.
Re, the natural father, I don't think anyone ever said he should face charges, but I do believe that he had a moral obligation to his child, I am geniunely amazed that people feel fathers have no respsonbility.
In fact we do not know if
K Mathews had any learning disability.
If she made it difficult for Shannons father to remain in contact or if he just didn't bother.
If she used men or was used by them.
We do not know if the natural fathers other children are polite.
I'm not excusing K Mathews at all - I think Shannon will be far better off without her mother, and agree that she should be in jail.
But I don't think that there was evil stalking the estate, or similar, as the Daily Mail would have it.
I think that a very dim, misguided woman with little or no education decided to chance it, and got it all horribly wrong.
Hi. The term Y-shaped coffin is one used to describe a woman of questionable virtue. As I tried to explain earlier, the saying "A slice off a cut loaf is not missed" was one I heard over 20 years ago in the movie Breaker Morant, the saying is explained online as meaning the following:-
"A slice off a cut loaf is never missed"
"Used colloquially to describe having sexual intercourse with someone who is not a virgin, especially when they are in a relationship. The analogy refers to a loaf of bread; it is not readily apparent, once the end has been removed, exactly how many slices have been taken.('You never miss a slice from a cut loaf' is also used.)"
I don't find the expression at all offensive. A woman has either had a lot of sexual partners or hasn't. As far as I am concerned it would only be offensive if used when the scenario was not accurate. In Karen Matthews case it is clearly reflective of the actuality of the situation.
I am not saying that Father's have no responsibility. Even the most well meaning of Father's can only have so much access to their child once a relationship dissolves. The law is heavily, and, in most cases, rightly biased towards the Mother retaining custody of the child/children involved. That makes it hard for some Dads to have much say in the way their kid is brought up. People move into other relationships and have a responsibility there also. How would a new partner and children feel if their Dad was obsessed with a child from a previous relationship?
My main point here is about looking at all the facts and trying to think about the practicalities when a family has become fragmented. Relationships can be complex, people make mistakes and I don't think it fair to label them as a useless half-wit when they are perhaps doing their best to move on in life and balance the fact that they have kids by different mothers.
ps I read an article where neighbours praised Shannon's Dad for having well behaved and polite kids. As I explained in my reply to trix earlier, it seems pretty certain that Karen Matthews is not as mentally impaired that she could not fool the Police into a £3 million search!! She is sufficiently equipped to know right from wrong from what I have heard and seen of her.
Hi. The term Y-shaped coffin is one used to describe a woman of questionable virtue. As I tried to explain earlier, the saying "A slice off a cut loaf is not missed" was one I heard over 20 years ago in the movie Breaker Morant, the saying is explained online as meaning the following:-
"A slice off a cut loaf is never missed"
"Used colloquially to describe having sexual intercourse with someone who is not a virgin, especially when they are in a relationship. The analogy refers to a loaf of bread; it is not readily apparent, once the end has been removed, exactly how many slices have been taken.('You never miss a slice from a cut loaf' is also used.)"
I don't find the expression at all offensive. A woman has either had a lot of sexual partners or hasn't. As far as I am concerned it would only be offensive if used when the scenario was not accurate. In Karen Matthews case it is clearly reflective of the actuality of the situation.
I am not saying that Father's have no responsibility. Even the most well meaning of Father's can only have so much access to their child once a relationship dissolves. The law is heavily, and, in most cases, rightly biased towards the Mother retaining custody of the child/children involved. That makes it hard for some Dads to have much say in the way their kid is brought up. People move into other relationships and have a responsibility there also. How would a new partner and children feel if their Dad was obsessed with a child from a previous relationship?
My main point here is about looking at all the facts and trying to think about the practicalities when a family has become fragmented. Relationships can be complex, people make mistakes and I don't think it fair to label them as a useless half-wit when they are perhaps doing their best to move on in life and balance the fact that they have kids by different mothers.
ps I read an article where neighbours praised Shannon's Dad for having well behaved and polite kids. As I explained in my reply to trix earlier, it seems pretty certain that Karen Matthews is not as mentally impaired that she could not fool the Police into a £3 million search!! She is sufficiently equipped to know right from wrong from what I have heard and seen of her.
I understood exactly what they meant, I just find them judgemental and offensive.
Different strokes for different folks and all that.
percy toboggan
10-Dec-08, 18:55
[quote=scorrie;468297
I feel certain that this would fill many people with dread. Nobody picks up the big tar brush and daubs sections of society more liberally and widely than Mr Luge. If you are coloured or on benefits, it is likely that you will feel the bristles sweep over you. Even if you are in work, it is probable that you are not doing your job properly and are a "disgrace to the country that Britain used to be" if your work happens to involve trying to sort out the mire that is Modern Britian. Maybe, if you are a coal-miner, had all your kids in wedlock, enjoy a good British pint with the lads down the club, come home to your white wife and still find time to consider the needs of your kids on a 24/7 basis, then perhaps you might qualify to enter the perfect circle of the sledgemeister and put the world to right from the perfection of your own little Ivory Tower.[/quote]
Oh dear, I now have to deflect the thread to tackle this misrepresentation. I'll try to be brief.
You agree 'modern Britain' is a 'mire' then. Common ground? p'raps not.
Coal miners have hidden depths 'tis true, though sadly most of them are now sealed up. Never mined.
Statistically children born in wedlock have more likelihood of their parents staying together. It is an ideal to which we should aspire in my opinion. Marriage should be financially rewarded via the tax system , with particular emphasis given to basic rate tax-payers. Incentives ahould also be given for procreation within marriage. Single mothers should be restricted to cash benefits for one child only....although offspring must not be deprived and substitutes in the form of vouchers should be introduced for clothing, food and some entertainment.
I'd prefer men to go straight home to their families after work whenever possible, rather than going 'down the club' . British beer is best in my experience.
White wives for white husbands almost exclusively in my neck of the woods but colour is optional. A white wife is far from mandatory in my version of events, but it may be a less complicated way to go. You have clearly misunderstood my attitudes to ethnic minorities. Perhaps the blame lies at my door.
Kids have needs 24/7/52 and a prime need is a loving father with their best interests at heart. In some sections of society these are becoming as endangered as the coal miner was c.1990 - to try to square the circle.
Not much in my world currently is 'perfect' but in my efforts to espouse a glimpse of where we are going wrong as a society I've obviously made an impression on you...albeit negative. I can live with it, but forgive me for forming no enduring impression of your good self as you have failed to make one, until now. Even though you appear to have misinterpreted my general thrust at least the 'mire' allusion shows a recognition that the gradient is heading down - handy for a tobogganist.
Toboggan Towers consists of mere bricks and mortar...parts of it even offer a plastic facade to the world at large. To suggest I inhabit an 'ivory tower' has brightened my evening though, and given your interest in my views I shall raise a glass of French Merlot to you and yours. Assuming you have any.
[quote=percy toboggan;468862][
Single mothers should be restricted to cash benefits for one child only....although offspring must not be deprived and substitutes in the form of vouchers should be introduced for clothing, food and some entertainment.
I think this is a really good idea but the only thing is probably a black market in vouchers would emerge. I hadn't thought that much about all this benefits stuff but it's been on the news so much lately that it's really starting to get on my nerves the amount of money out of work people get. I totally agree with them having to work for benefits.
changilass
10-Dec-08, 19:34
If folks have to work for their benefits, then surely they are employed and entitled to minimum wage, therfore no longer on benefit???
Confused
Not really, I'd say that they should do voluntary work until they get a job, which may even lead to a job. Or they should be preparing for a job by gaining employability skills in exchange for benefits. There are plenty of community projects offering training and skills and it should be compulsory from day one of claiming that they are made to do this.
changilass
10-Dec-08, 20:01
If you force someone to work then its not voluntary, I just dont see how the system can work.
armanisgirl
10-Dec-08, 20:06
Many jobcentres already send unemployed people out to do 'voluntary' work in order to get recent basic training etc. Most charity shops have volunteers of this nature.
However, on the subject of having to work for benefits, where are all the jobs coming from? There are so many companies maing hundreds of redundancies at the moment; two of my family members have been made redundant in the last 2 weeks, there are jobs out there, but there won't be for long! Training programmes and college places are often over-subscribed, so there will soon be waiting lists for these places too. Also, being on a training programme or at college doesn't make anyone exempt from being expected to attend work-focussed-inteviews in the job centre now either.
It's all very well shouting about getting people into work, but it's not going to be possible seeing as there's a financial recession on. Also bear in mind, not everyone who is on benefits claim them because they're lazy or not interested - I know people who have worked as hard as anyone else only to collapse through ill health and have no option but to claim benefits, their partner leaving them during such a critical time in their life, and basically having to rebuild everything that has crumbled around them, all whilst being technically disabled. These people don't all want to be on benefits, but have no choice, especially now when (regardless of equal opportunities) companies are more likely to employ those in good health and who have had very little time off whilst previously employed.
It would be great if everyone was in work, but it aint gonna happen in a hurry! Not just now anyway. Unemployment is at it's highest, and there will be another few thousand joining the dole queue tomorrow when Woolworth employees trudge along to fill in their forms too!
Training programmes and college places are often over-subscribed, so there will soon be waiting lists for these places too. Also, being on a training programme or at college doesn't make anyone exempt from being expected to attend work-focussed-inteviews in the job centre now either.
A lot of the time North Highland college adevertise courses as running only if they can get a class together and often they go unsubscribed and don't run.
Statistically children born in wedlock have more likelihood of their parents staying together. It is an ideal to which we should aspire in my opinion.
people are more than just statistics. my 1st son, born out of wedlock, 2nd son born after marriage - both to the same man whom i am still married to
Marriage should be financially rewarded via the tax system , with particular emphasis given to basic rate tax-payers. Incentives ahould also be given for procreation within marriage.
wouldnt that create marriages and children by people who want money? rather than for the right reasons
Single mothers should be restricted to cash benefits for one child only....although offspring must not be deprived and substitutes in the form of vouchers should be introduced for clothing, food and some entertainment.
what about mothers (and fathers) who become single parents once they have had more than one child?
Kids have needs 24/7/52 and a prime need is a loving father with their best interests at heart. In some sections of society these are becoming as endangered as the coal miner was c.1990 - to try to square the circle.
kids need a loving caregiver. preferably mum and dad.. but this is not always the best situation for kids
I agree with Sweetpea, they should be made to go on courses whether voluntary or not - why should they lift benefits that are more than the Mr average family in a menial job that works long and hard hours? Britain has become a nation of benefit scroungers and fraud is ripe. Granted there is people that are disabled who cannot work but again even in this category how many malingerers are there and does anyone do anything about it? I have every empathy with those that have been laid off work through no fault of their own and I see no reason why they should not receive benefits I wont be getting all the perks. The system is pathetic and it makes me groan as I am now beginning to come to the end of my working days I think bring back the good old Maggie Thatcher days.....and it was not perfect either. What a complicate land we live in.
Sixeen year olds with council flats, all their pals around ect ect. It is not right.Where are their mammies and daddies? Pathetic to say the least.to have your little teenagers out in council houses, sad..
When they come to pension age they are better off than the person who has worked all their days with a small private pension.
Caithness and Sutherland are now as bad as the rest of the country for the scroungers and malingerers. It just annoys me to see so many hard working folkies earning an honest crust and then see how the scoundralls abuse the system and your Karen Matthews type was just that. Quite clever I would say but it went wrong.
Sixeen year olds with council flats, all their pals around ect ect. It is not right.Where are their mammies and daddies? Pathetic to say the least.to have your little teenagers out in council houses, sad..
When they come to pension age they are better off than the person who has worked all their days with a small private pension.
.
Do you do pension advice cataran?
cos that's what worries me, that I'm getting nothing for all the years of service. Probably be better off getting signed off due to stress that I'm working and not getting anywhere, lol
I'd be better off getting a line or getting bairned[lol] for the umptienth time![lol]
Just a wee query, do you think that because you suppose the woman was not all there then it is right that she should never have had a realationship?
this post is not up til yer usual standard TBH....(on 2nd thoughts....!)
i admit, i da think 'e woman is all ayre (bearin in mind that she is in jail at the moment for a serious crime)....irrelevant, but o' course she should o' hed a chance at relationships in her life...
maybe if she met a man who complemented her then there wid be no need for 'e social..............ifs.............buts....!
'e fact is...she didna meet a man who complemented her, she met several men, not one (in the social picture) who could offer her guidance an support.
again, i cana help but repeat masel.....'e GOVERNMENT is 'e body o' power who is in contol o' these less unfortunate people......
....'e GOVERNMENT is 'e body o' power who is in contol o' these less unfortunate people......
Well I think I have heard it all now! The Government is to blame for Karen Matthews!!!! Is the Government to blame for Peter Tobin? Or Burke and Hare? Or any other sad sick person, I don't think so!
Unfortunately, you cannot save all these poor unfortunate children from violence, poverty and sometimes death. What you could do, is send out social workers with experience of life (ie not new graduates) who are not going to be intimidated by these low-life characters and actually have the back-up to do something to get these innocents out of that situation. The way that the social work departments have been rounded on is disgusting. Everyone in our society is responsible for the children around them. All of these high profile cases which have been in the news recently have had people, after the fact, coming forward to say that they were aware of abuse taking place but none of them did anything. It's a total cop-out to blame the government or social services entirely for these tragedies that are taking place.
We are all responsible. Until we acknowledge that, we'll never save any of them.
As an aside, I was on my high horse about Baby P et al, looking for someone to blame, until I recently talked to a social worker, who let me know what life is like in their world. Grim.
As loobyloo says isnt society partly to blame? How many of us see teenagers as all our responsibility? How many of us see children behaving badly and actually say something? How many of us ask a person sitting on a bench with their head in their hands and ask them if they are ok? How many of us, seeing a situation that seems odd - even go back for a second look or do we just drive on by and get on with our busy lives because hey, teenagers are a waste of space anyway, the kids are just throwing a few stones at some daft ducks, the person sat there is probably listening to their MP3 player and anyway - we are just too damned busy and too damned scared.
We absolve ourselves of responsibility for each other and for society as a whole whilst sitting tut tutting behind our Daily Scaremonger and locking our doors, frightened almost of our own shadow. Sometimes a word is all that's needed, sometimes its more than that but its the responsibility of ALL of us.
I understood exactly what they meant, I just find them judgemental and offensive.
Different strokes for different folks and all that.
The term "a slice of a cut loaf is not missed" was first recorded in Shakespeare's Titus Andronicus. If it was good enough for the Bard, it is good enough for me.
I suspect you will be in a tiny minority of people who could find such a tame comment offensive when used in reference to a woman who has broken the most sacred bond there is, that being the instinct of a Mother to protect her Child.
A word of advice:-
DON'T buy "Mock The Week, Too Hot For TV" DVD
Melancholy Man
11-Dec-08, 01:36
So, Scorrie, do you think all that stuff about Jews hiding in good Christian form is, if good enough for the bard, good enough for you?
;)
As an aside, I was on my high horse about Baby P et al, looking for someone to blame, until I recently talked to a social worker, who let me know what life is like in their world. Grim.
Exactly. Too many people think that if THEY were doing a particular job, the world would be sorted overnight. They have no clue about what is actually involved in dealing with something as sensitive as family life and potentially having to remove a child from a family. Statistically, children taken from a "bad" family environment and then placed into care do relatively badly in their subsequent years. It is simply not a case of pulling them away from their parents and guaranteeing a better future for them. It is not like re-homing a rabbit or some other pet. For a start you need finance, foster parents etc etc. It really does need to be a last resort. How many of the critics here would be willing to pay extra tax in order to finance a package that would allow more kids to be taken from dysfunctional families?
So, Scorrie, do you think all that stuff about Jews hiding in good Christian form is, if good enough for the bard, good enough for you?
;)
I am almost solely concerned with Shakespeare's work that incorporates wheat based products. Anything else goes against the grain for me ;)
More to the point do you have an opinion on Ms Matthews?
Also, why are you still reading the Thin Red Line? Is this the unabridged THICK Red Line volume, or are you not allowed to read whilst suspended?
Welcome back!!
Melancholy Man
11-Dec-08, 01:49
Oh, but seriously, do you really think that all the stuff about bleeding when pricked was an appeal to racial tolerance and not a warning that, *despite* bleeding when pricked, "the Jew" was still an alien in the midst? I must say, I was the only one laughing (in horror, albeit) at The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas in T'Allstar Factory.
<changes sig>
As for Karen Matthews, dreadful woman.
I must say thatI'm absolutely amazes at this assumption that Karen Matthews is somehow sub-normal!
She is obviously well aware of how to exploit the welfare system.
Thoughtful enough to dream up an admittedly hair-brained scheme of "how to get rich quick".
aaldtimer....'e lassie is locked up for kidnappin her own child an tryin til fraud 'e public o' money...
when ye insinuate that karen is 'normal'...as much respect as i hev for ye aulder manies, ye gie me 'e impression that ye are a bit 'subnormal' :eek:
Quite why the father of Shannon is being adjudjed to be of the same deficiencies is beyond me!.
its no 'at hard til believe aaldtimer....they met, they hed sex (unprotected) they hed a child!
And Trix, your statement..."as for me no bein a parent, yer right aye, but i hev grown up masel in a stable background and clearly understand 'e requirements necessary til bring up a child. infact i probly ken more than ye cause i studyied child care at collage for 2 years"...is just laughable.
Until you're a parent you can never know the emotional bond that it creates. .
maybe so...but no only do i hev ma own personal life experieces, i hev witnessed accounts o' when it all goes horribly wrong.
i also understand and am trained in matters such as 'e biological an physical concept o' child rearin...'e emotional and psychological development o' a child....
As an aside, I'm assuming your spelling of "studyied " & "collage" is in the vernacular of your post..
i do apologise for the few spellin mistakes but bear in mind that i work all day, hed worked all nite an it wis almost half one in 'e mornin!!
did noone ever tell ye auldtimer, that it is uncool till pull up someone on their spellin an also a poor reflection on yer defence....which has once again been conveniently sidestepped :roll:
Studying a subject does not necessarilly give you the skills to be adept in that subject. .
but it sure dis help when developin skills an experience in life....
[/quote]
Well I think I have heard it all now! The Government is to blame for Karen Matthews!!!! Is the Government to blame for Peter Tobin? Or Burke and Hare? Or any other sad sick person, I don't think so!
probably aye......seriously lek!
What you could do, is send out social workers with experience of life (ie not new graduates) who are not going to be intimidated by these low-life characters and actually have the back-up to do something to get these innocents out of that situation.
srongly disagree looby....
it 'e new graduates that hev 'e spark aboot them....'e energy levels til do somethin aboot getin somethin done...fresh oot o' trainin....oh aye, bring it on!!!
at auld cheils are fie a different generation....too busy worryin aboot getin their bairns til college an a flat in aberdeen......! (choost an example...in no ways linked til anyone i ken...or dina ken, i apologise if it sounds familiar til any readers) guys are getin paid thousands til do what?????? push pens an make lists......bull*.....!!!!!
get 'e new boys in, some fresh inspiration.....respect til 'e auld bies but....move over, its 'e 21st centuary an wur nation is in serious need o' a make over...
'e next hurricane or tsnami (ca spell, da pull me up aaldimer - its late) that happens in some foreign land, da send then 20 million kwid.....
wur country is in turmoil as it is....
Aaldtimer
11-Dec-08, 03:52
I'm sorry Trix, maybe it is late, but that is no excuse for illogicallity"...
"aaldtimer....'e lassie is locked up for kidnappin her own child an tryin til fraud 'e public o' money"...
It seems that this is the norm in modern society to think up some hair-brained scheme to get yourself noticed as a celebrity and make some dosh!...
"when ye insinuate that karen is 'normal'...as much respect as i hev for ye aulder manies, ye gie me 'e impression that ye are a bit 'subnormal'"...
that shows no respect whatsoever to what is just my personal opinion, and is totally unworthy of you. I guess maybe you're a wee bit stressed eh?
..."its no 'at hard til believe aaldtimer....they met, they hed sex (unprotected) they hed a child!"...
That could probably cover about 75% of the sexually active population of this country!
..."maybe so...but no only do i hev ma own personal life experieces, i hev witnessed accounts o' when it all goes horribly wrong.
i also understand and am trained in matters such as 'e biological an physical concept o' child rearin...'e emotional and psychological development o' a child..."
That may the case, but you will never know MORE than what it is to be a parent until you become one yourself!
Re studying..."but it sure dis help when developin skills an experience in life...."
Nothing gives you better skills than living the experience.
[disgust]
The term "a slice of a cut loaf is not missed" was first recorded in Shakespeare's Titus Andronicus. If it was good enough for the Bard, it is good enough for me.
I suspect you will be in a tiny minority of people who could find such a tame comment offensive when used in reference to a woman who has broken the most sacred bond there is, that being the instinct of a Mother to protect her Child.
A word of advice:-
DON'T buy "Mock The Week, Too Hot For TV" DVD
It is not the sayings themselves I find offensive it is the manner you are using them.
But I think you know this and are maybe just looking for a reaction.
Melancholy Man
11-Dec-08, 09:56
a woman who has broken the most sacred bond there is, that being the instinct of a Mother to protect her Child.
This strikes me as similar to the binary opinions on prostitution: that women are considered either saints or sinners. Matthew's reprehensible actions reflect on her, not some ideal image of womanhood.
northener
11-Dec-08, 10:44
OK, it's simple. Not worthy of prolonged grinding nitpicking.
The Matthews woman was a stupid, ruthless, greedy conniving person who got caught. There's plenty more where she came from living in the UK.
Forget the handwringing, forget the apologists, forget the hysterical tabloid media. She got caught and that's that.[disgust]
Melancholy Man
11-Dec-08, 11:07
Aye, Northerner, it's good to see the two minute hate has been in full-swing. I recall one of the investigating Police saying that they weren't exactly dealing with criminal masterminds.
Here's (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/06/shannon-matthews-kidnap-childprotection) a fine piece from a journalist who knows when to admit she was wrong.
I recall one of the investigating Police saying that they weren't exactly dealing with criminal masterminds.
That's a bit rich coming after a £3 million search that needed a tip-off AND a shout from the lassie herself in order to conclude it!! Makes you wonder if the Police would have found her had she simply been hiding in her own bedroom at home.
Situations Vacant:-
Former Police required for Panto this Christmas. Must be able to stare vacantly into the audience whilst being told:-
"SHE'S BEHIND YOU!!"
Melancholy Man
11-Dec-08, 11:56
A child had been reported missing, so the Police were obliged to act. I would not wish to live in a country where, on such events, the first thought is to ransack relatives' houses.
I have little doubt there were, in turn, doubts in the rozzers' minds early on; before, even, Matthews expressed greater interest in a 'phone ring-tone than her located daughter. They have people lie to them every day, so can spot it. However, reasonable suspicion is required, and image the uproar had they publicly disputed the mother's story. From Bea Campbell, for a start.
percy toboggan
11-Dec-08, 17:50
If folks have to work for their benefits, then surely they are employed and entitled to minimum wage, therfore no longer on benefit???
Confused
Perhaps it might be better put.
Make some 'effort' or contribution' for their benefit.
Those amongst them who have a degree of self-respect
might welcome the idea. Those who don't will no doubt find some way of skiving out of it.
(for some reason your moniker always reminds me of Virginia McKenna in ' A Town like Alice' - not a bad allusion...not a bad film)
percy toboggan
11-Dec-08, 17:56
How many of us ask a person sitting on a bench with their head in their hands and ask them if they are ok?
Funnily enough this happened to me the other day.
I told 'em to beggar off as I was just having a quiet five minutes
thinking about some of the posters on 'ere.
percy toboggan
11-Dec-08, 17:57
[quote=scorrie;469145]....Makes you wonder if the Police would have found her had she simply been hiding in her own bedroom at home.....
quote]
...according to locals that's one of the first places the Police looked.
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