View Full Version : Another innocent child lost
Alice in Blunderland
11-Nov-08, 22:02
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7723042.stm
Oh dear it looks like another innocent victim has fallen through the safety net which is there to protect. :(
This child was found dead in his blood-splattered cot on 3 August 2007.
How many chances do you think people should be given with children at risk ?
Is it a case of social services are damned if they remove children?
Or damned if they dont ?
It breaks my heart to read this story but I know there will be another one and another one.
Children are a gift to be loved and treasured not to be tortured and abused.
How sick a world we live in. :(
I for one am of the oppinion you get one chance and one chance only with innocent children when it comes to abuse. Harsh but they are innocent whereas we should know better.
Heard this story on the radio tonight when i was driving home and it made me sick hearing of the injuries the poor child had sustained. Being a mum 2 a baby girl cannot imagine how or why anyone could do a child any harm. Not only the abusers but the professionals involved who also failed to protect this child. It beggars belief in this day and age?????
It's cases like this that make me believe we should have the death penalty! Anyone who can do something like this doesn't deserve to live. It's pathetic that the mother and her partner can't be named!! What right do scum like them deserve anonymity?
It breaks my heart to think how the poor lad felt on a daily basis. I assume a happy child must be confused enough with his or her feelings as nearly everything is a new experience. The fear and numbness must've been overwhelming. Here's hoping, in death he gets the peace he deserves. I tried reading the second page but it made me feel physically sick.
I can't believe the authorities left him in such a bad situation. There were far too many mistakes. I can't understand why the social etc. don't take a kid into care at the first sign of any foul play.
It scares me that there are people out there that could do such things
I saw it on the telly but couldn't bring myself to read about it - it's too upsetting. Cruelty to animals stories also have the same effect on me.
What I don't understand is why social services actually determined he was at "significant risk" and yet left him with his parents. Why 60 visits? Wouldn't 48 or 49 have done and then taken him away? I don't understand why the social services lady said she'd paid too much attention to what the mother said. Why not pay more attention to the child?
Again, it beggars belief. But I'm not a social worker so I have no grasp on what difficulties they face in these cases.
It upsets my kilter too but I truly believe everyone should read the details of stories ,like this.
I hope those found guilty of this get the true punisnment they deserve dished out to them by their fellow inmates, they do not deserve life.
It's getting called the Charles P case now. His name is coming out, no respite for that child or hidden identity.
Watched it on c4-the statistics made an ass of them selves- the poor little thing was a 'baby'he don't do statistics-he doe's loving parents!
tilter -with you all the way-an what really pissed me off-was the way officialdom replies -sorry peeps -cannot go on-too close to the heart this one.
Alice in Blunderland
12-Nov-08, 00:00
Its terrible to say this........... but at least in death this childs suffering has stopped. He is somewhere now where no man can ever harm him again.
Its a tragedy to read what torture this poor innocent baby had to endure and from those who were supposed to have love in their hearts for him.
Its harrowing to think what this poor wee might had to endure may he now know peace and no more pain in the arms of the angels he sure never got it in the arms of his mother. :(
teenybash
12-Nov-08, 00:12
I can find no words to relay my horror.............all I can say is, God Bless you little child, you are safe forever more.:~(
Its terrible to say this........... but at least in death this childs suffering has stopped. He is somewhere now where no man can ever harm him again.
Its a tragedy to read what torture this poor innocent baby had to endure and from those who were supposed to have love in their hearts for him.
Its harrowing to think what this poor wee might had to endure may he now know peace and no more pain in the arms of the angels he sure never got it in the arms of his mother. :(
Oh Alice I couldnt watch the late News what on earth drove this 3 individuals to this attack on that wee boy I was sick to my stomach and could not watch the the late news the poor wee soul why was he even here to endure this life of torture its a sad life that bairn has peace hopefully now "A mother loves a blessing "sadly not in this wee souls case please let him rest easy and let us for a second or third time learn from it
It just goes on and on just pure abuse on the childs behalf and neglect by social workers
Strikes me that Social Services are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
Personally, I'd much rather see children as young as this, at least, being removed "in case" than parents being given the benefit of the doubt.....because, imo, if there is any doubt, the child should not be there at all.
Maybe I'm naive, but I'd rather err on the side of caution where children are involved.
But it makes me wonder if incidents like the Victoria Climbie and the Orkney Satanic abuse cases, for example, weren't as chewed over by the media to the extent that it made readers/listeners/watchers believe that it was the norm, whether the Social Services might be more inclined to do what they think is right, rather than always looking over their shoulders in case the media get on their backs.
However, I do think that Social Services have too much power to interfere............not as much in removing children "in case" , as in the assumption which seems to be prevalent in the courts that "the Social Services know best", resulting in many children not being returned to their parent/s when the reasons are not obvious to the general public.
Just think.................how many hundreds/thousands of cases do the Social Services deal with in any one year.....................and how many end up like this one or the others the media boost their circulation using? Proportionately very few it seems to me................but don't you think that in cases where the evidence is a bit iffy the tendency might be to wait and see.....because that way they won't get trashed in the media.
I'm sorry.......but I think a lot of the problems we have in the UK.....whether social, racial, financial etc are down to the media and the pratts who actually believe what they say has any connection with real life.
Lets not forget that in this case one of the 3 individuals was the child's so called mother, for goodness sake what was she doing, in the Animal kingdom
the Mothers of most animals will fight to the death to save or stop harm to their offspring. So what is this individual, IMHO lower than an animal
Ye canna' say much more than that golach! Apart from -pass the hankie--cos' will it once ever an ever again be a case of LESSONS WILL BE LEARNED and sod all will be done an no one will ever be brought to book for it.
Strikes me that Social Services are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
Personally, I'd much rather see children as young as this, at least, being removed "in case" than parents being given the benefit of the doubt.....because, imo, if there is any doubt, the child should not be there at all.
Maybe I'm naive, but I'd rather err on the side of caution where children are involved.
But it makes me wonder if incidents like the Victoria Climbie and the Orkney Satanic abuse cases, for example, weren't as chewed over by the media to the extent that it made readers/listeners/watchers believe that it was the norm, whether the Social Services might be more inclined to do what they think is right, rather than always looking over their shoulders in case the media get on their backs.
However, I do think that Social Services have too much power to interfere............not as much in removing children "in case" , as in the assumption which seems to be prevalent in the courts that "the Social Services know best", resulting in many children not being returned to their parent/s when the reasons are not obvious to the general public.
Just think.................how many hundreds/thousands of cases do the Social Services deal with in any one year.....................and how many end up like this one or the others the media boost their circulation using? Proportionately very few it seems to me................but don't you think that in cases where the evidence is a bit iffy the tendency might be to wait and see.....because that way they won't get trashed in the media.
I'm sorry.......but I think a lot of the problems we have in the UK.....whether social, racial, financial etc are down to the media and the pratts who actually believe what they say has any connection with real life.
I see where you are coming from
but in this case the childminder was alert and reported it jesus the babe was in the hosp how many times ?
you go tell that to the poor child that died and was kicked about and ended up with a broken spine and back sorry its down to the media
sadly at the end of the day One child too many Again please let him rest in peace the wee mite
I see where you are coming from
but in this case the childminder was alert and reported it jesus the babe was in the hosp how many times ?
you go tell that to the poor child that died and was kicked about and ended up with a broken spine and back sorry its down to the media
sadly at the end of the day One child too many Again please let him rest in peace the wee mite
Don't see a childminder mention in the linked article............but I'm not for a second saying that the Social Services were not negligent................but I am saying that maybe that negligence is down to the fact that they have been pilloried so many times in the past by the media, and they are erring on the side of caution too much nowadays.
Be honest.....if you were to take a child from its parents as in the Orkney case and then have the media trash you for days.........would you be as inclined to do it again on suspicion?
In England it would not be possible for local authority social services departments forcibly to remove a child of any age into their care in circumstances where parents do not consent to this. While social services departments and the police have powers to obtain emergency orders so that they can act immediately to protect a child, the Children Act 1989 does not permit local authorities to remove children from the care of their parents without referring the matter to a Court.
Strikes me that if the doctors who have examined a child do not flag up any concerns, the Social Services hands are tied....regardless of their suspicions.
So why blame the Social Services when a doctor saw the child and didn't report his injuries as abuse?
Don't misunderstand me......I think that Social Services are generally a waste of space, and in many situations make matters they are involved in much worse than necessary............but at the end of the day they do need evidence of some kind to remove a child.........and if doctors don't report abuse, the evidence isn't there, as far as I can see...........because Social workers are not qualified to ascertain a child's injuries if not blatantly obvious.
Unfortunately, imo, the laws the Social Services have to operate under are too restrictive where it counts.
I'd rather see children going into care and parents fighting for them if there is any doubt at all...............but then there are as many media stories about children taken into care for no reason obvious to the general public.
So you convince me that Social Services are not "damned if they do and damned if they don't.
youoldduffer
12-Nov-08, 03:06
it's cases like this we need and should have the death penalty. I cannot understand the mentality of these people (and i use this term loosely), its just beyond me.
Alice in Blunderland
12-Nov-08, 09:35
Everytime you read of these cases there is always an enquiry into what went wrong and what measures can be put in place to try and prevent these things happening. :confused
So many people involved in trying to roll out a system to protect these innocent children and still this keeps on happening. :(
I know that we dont have a crystal ball to see what is going to happen in the future but in this case this baby was well known to everyone.
I gree one strike and your out when it comes to these poor souls.
A baby is a gift and there are so many people out there who would give anything for the chance to have a child and cannot.
digital02
12-Nov-08, 10:22
The Death Penalty or corpral punishment is the only thing that this person deserves.
When will the government act and bring back the only real deterrant, the country is crying out for it.
When will the government act and bring back the only real deterrant, the country is crying out for it.
Hopefully Never.
i cried listening to this last night. that poor baby. I just look at my 2 year old lying in the cot and wonder how anyone could inflict that pain on a child.
they cant hurt you any more little one, rest in peace.
This poor inocent wee boy died needlessly, and in a very cruel manner. How did it happen, simply because the social services again failed in there obligation to save this child. He was on the Child protection register and was being seen twice weekly. or so they say.???????
The mother got away with covering the boys face with choclate and making excuses, to which the social worker and health visitors went away happy.
The link i read last night included a computer generated image of the childs face and i cant believe that the idiots at the social services did not notice the difference between the mass of bruises and chocolate.
The most sensible thing to do is put an age limit for the youngest children not to go onto the register and just to placed away from the family until things can be sorted out. Older children can often tell when things get that bad but a 17 mth old has no way of telling anyone whats going on.
The minute that a social worker or health professional start thinking about putting babies on registers is the time that they should be removing them for their own safety.
I know more than most how hard parenting is and i know how frustrating it can be at times, but the abuse of a child is not acceptable, whether it be a slap around the face in frustration or a needless beating makes no difference. these children are vulnerable and need protecting from the monsters that carry, bear and nuture them or supposed to. This is a subject close to my heart as my godson was shaken to death by his father at the tender age of 7 weeks, and when appearing in court it turned out that baby darren-lee had more fractures on his ribs than he had ribs.
This woman needs to be locked away for a very long time, sterialised to prevent her having more children that she can beat to death, and then left to rot for her crime.[evil][evil]
I am a mother and i cant understand how anyone could hurt there own child or any child its disgusting. I think anyone who hurts a child should be put to death.
Hopefully Never.
It just happened to be last night myself and oh were looking through death row inmates, those that have been executed for their crimes and those awaiting execution. Reading some of the horrific offenses they were charged with i am glad that someone has the death pealty.
There are women on their that have murdered there own children for the good of themselves and yes they deserve to die. The children did not.
I am a mother and i cant understand how anyone could hurt there own child or any child its disgusting. I think anyone who hurts a child should be put to death.
I have to agree. The death penalty is extreme punishment. but these are extreme crimes.
There is not justice in letting these people live when innocent children are so cruely murdered.
skinnydog
12-Nov-08, 12:22
How can social services see this child 60 times and this happen? For 2 social workers and a lawyer to receive warnings and not be dismissed from their jobs is unacceptable.
What's really sad is that while his mother was under investigation in December 2006 he was taken out of her care until the end of January 2007 - so at least the authorities recognized the danger he was in but then they allowed him to go back home to his parents again and from then on he had little chance of survival.
Makes my blood boil.......[disgust]
What's really sad is that while his mother was under investigation in December 2006 he was taken out of her care until the end of January 2007 - so at least the authorities recognized the danger he was in but then they allowed him to go back home to his parents again and from then on he had little chance of survival.
Makes my blood boil.......[disgust]
The fact that he was taken away and then sent back makes it even worse. On the radio this morning they said he was with I think a family friend for a month during which he was a happy baby and his bruises disappeared. If that was not evidence enough that something was wrong at home, what more do they need?
I can't think about this without feeling sick but nothing will change until they start paying people who work in Social Services a decent salary and have more, better qualified, experienced people in charge. If a junior Social Worker has any doubts about a family the case should be handed over to someone more senior who has been dealing with cases for years.
How did a paediatrician miss broken ribs and a broken back? Was this some junior doctor who knew nothing about babies. If so why was he working unsupervised with no-one to advise?
Too many questions ... If only we could believe he did not die in vain.
I can't think about this without feeling sick but nothing will change until they start paying people who work in Social Services a decent salary and have more, better qualified, experienced people in charge. If a junior Social Worker has any doubts about a family the case should be handed over to someone more senior who has been dealing with cases for years.
How did a paediatrician miss broken ribs and a broken back? Was this some junior doctor who knew nothing about babies. If so why was he working unsupervised with no-one to advise?
Too many questions ... If only we could believe he did not die in vain.
This is exactly what I think as well.
cuddlepop
12-Nov-08, 17:38
its another tragic statistic that no one will be accountable for this is what makes this case so awfull.
Lessons have not been learnt from the last case that ended in murder.I cant remember the exact number of recommendations that were made after the inquiry but it was in its 100's.
Why were the recommendations not implemented and or monitored.:confused
Can I ask if anyone does anything when these things happen. I always feel so useless, and feel I should be doing something to stop it happening again but what ?
Is it worth trying to make the Government accountable for the poor standard of care provided by social work, I think not. I think even they would give the standard we care response while at the same time coming up with 100 reasons the safety and health of our children is so lowly funded.
I used to feel such anger when I read about things like this, now I just feel a great sadness and feeling of helplessness.
this story is absolutely appaulling... that poor chid didn't stand a chance...
no punishment is going to be enough for the people who committed this dreadful crime... i only hope this haunts all those involved in letting this happen for the rest of their lives..[mad]
I dont think there is anything we can do. We will never stop people with mental illness having children, we will never stop unfit people having children. Children die at the hands of their perents all the time.
Re the social workers, people will always make mistakes, this is just one child among many thousands under the care of social workers. Its tragic for that child and its clear that Haringey council need to audit their procedures but lets not blow things out of proportion.
Bad things happen all the time.
I dont think there is anything we can do. We will never stop people with mental illness having children, we will never stop unfit people having children. Children die at the hands of their perents all the time.
Re the social workers, people will always make mistakes, this is just one child among many thousands under the care of social workers. Its tragic for that child and its clear that Haringey council need to audit their procedures but lets not blow things out of proportion.
Bad things happen all the time.
Sorry, but how can you say say lets not blow things out of proportion, that child is dead, the mother caused the death by beating him and the social services and health proffessionals neglected him as much as his mother by allowing this to happen. Mistakes should not be made by professionals to the point of a child dying. Its easy to dismiss this as an appauling mistake but the poor baby who spent his entire life being mistreated and neglected had a right to life and no-one not even the one who brought him into this world has the right to abuse and kill him.
Haringey council have alot to answer for. 2 dead children within a year span is considered 2 to many in my opinion.[disgust]
youoldduffer
12-Nov-08, 18:50
Yes average your right we will never stop children being murdered nor being born to unfit parents or those with a mental illness. But I'm sorry they should be made to suffer for their crime and for what they did to that poor inocent I would wish nothing else than the death penalty, but they will get life and still fed every day which is more than they gave that child, they will still have a life, which is what they took in a utterly disgusting cruel way from that child.
They should be put in the general populace of the prison but they wont as the other inmates would make them pay properly for what they did, something our goverment will not do.
percy toboggan
12-Nov-08, 18:53
An extended spat at PMQ's today over this. Unedifying.
Previous cases of this nature have not made the nations most important public debating chamber in such a high profile way.
If one ponders such matters, as do I you might feel it a little unfair.
Social workers are, in my opinion grossly overpaid. It is often revealed that they are also incompetent.
kitty kat
13-Nov-08, 11:59
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1925012.ece sign here to have the people put in charge social workers doctors etc struck off
heres another couple of innocent children murdered last night by their mother in manchester.one of the boys is three months old and the other boy is three. How many more need to die before there is a big shake up in the way things are dealt with.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7726077.stm
Its terrible to say this........... but at least in death this childs suffering has stopped.
Alice, that's what I was thinking when I made my earlier post, but I wasn't brave enough to say.
Oddquine, I thought your posts were very well-thought out and even-handed. Why did the doctor not flag up the baby's condition? Was it because he was negligent, or totally over-worked, or conditioned to looking at one problem and not the whole?
This is a dreadful case, but it makes my wonder in other news stories of a less extreme nature how often I have a knee-jerk reaction to a sound bite on a subject I know little about and that little is only what is fed me by the media.
AfternoonDelight
13-Nov-08, 13:25
Jesus - I know you shouldn't believe everything you read in the papers but apparently the mother is preganant again....
I would get banned if I said everything I felt on here!!!!!!!!!!! [evil]
Edit -
The mother, who cannot be identified because of a legal order but comes from Tottenham, north London, gave birth to a girl eight months ago while in custody, according to a report in the Daily Mirror which said the woman has not seen the baby since being moved to a segregation unit in September. She could be reunited with the baby following her sentencing, or the girl could be put up for adoption.
percy toboggan
13-Nov-08, 17:55
foor goodness sake say it...and damn a ban.
Why was there no murder charge in this case?
For two British men to be complicit in such an act of cruelty is utterly frightful - I understand the main protagonist tortured frogs as a child - they should each be horsewhipped before a bullet to the brain brings a salving of the planet. Good riddance.
The 'mothers' (use the word loosely) issue should be whisked away into an adoptive home and a metaphorical cork implanted, before a lethal injection despatches the wretch to kingdom come.
Not sure which thread to post on.
Firstly, I reckon anyone who tortures and kills kids should get a bullet to the back of the head. But on other hand I don't believe having a death penalty would deter them, they are sick and people like this don't think of consequences.
I'm disgusted with all the people involved in protecting this child. I think they should be struck off and never allowed to be involved with kids again. Yes they may be overworked but that's not an excuse. Where has common sense gone these days? Social workers are too busy trying to be mates with their clients.
purplelady
14-Nov-08, 00:10
They have no rite to call themselves human beings in my opinion or even animals come to that that are evil sick cannot find the words to describe how i feel about them, that poor little boy there are so many out there who would have given the poor little mite the love he should have had . Then to top it all two more died today stabbed to death by their own mother by all accounts and they too were known to social workers for heavens sake sorry for going on but this makes me so bloodly angry those poor little mite had no chance from the start . Where does it all end my son who is 12 was disgusted by him and said how can anyone do that i could not even strave or hurt my hamster bless him but it says it all really, hope these sickos get everything they deservein prison .
I am loathe to support the death penalty because of the mistakes that were so clearly made in the past.
However, what is the purpose of the criminal justice system? Is it revenge? Is it rehabilitation? How does it feel to be a relative of a child who has died in these tragic circumstances: would it be of any consolation to think that someone leaving the penal system was a 'reformed character'? If a child of mine were harmed/mutilated/killed, I could not say that I would not take the law into my own hands. I say this with complete honesty. Personally, I struggle with this. Looking at it from a purely logical point of view, I would say yes, prisoners should be rehabilitated and not punished because ultimately, that is what will benefit our society and make us humane. However, if I were put in this situation would I have the same opinion? I very much doubt it.
Rehab is ok for certain types of crime but not all. It might work with robbers, fraudsters or vandals but I don't think it will work for child killers.
The people behind this really disgust me! Her identity is protected but obviously in the world of the Internet this is harder and harder to do.
Yesterday I found the woman in questions profile on a social networking site. Her last entry on this site was nine days before the boy died.
There is some very chilling stuff on it. She lists "the coolest person she met this year" as "my baby son the day he was born".
Also less than two weeks before the poor boy died she posted a "blog" about how she was bored and had family visiting and was going out of her mind. One of her friends left a reply joking about her killing her family! All far too close to the bone!
I assume her identity has been hidden to protect her four other kids but putting a face to her makes you hate her even more!!
brokencross
14-Nov-08, 22:19
I was deeply saddened and at the same time disgusted by the whole series of events when the name was just anonymous Baby P; but now a picture of the poor young boy has been issued I feel an even greater sense of disbelief and shock that anyone could want to hurt such an innocent child.
purplelady
16-Nov-08, 01:20
I am moved to tears for this poor little angel he was lovely he reminded me so much of own son at that age he is 12 yr old something that poor wee poor will never ever seeee
The people behind this really disgust me! Her identity is protected but obviously in the world of the Internet this is harder and harder to do.
Yesterday I found the woman in questions profile on a social networking site. Her last entry on this site was nine days before the boy died.
There is some very chilling stuff on it. She lists "the coolest person she met this year" as "my baby son the day he was born".
Also less than two weeks before the poor boy died she posted a "blog" about how she was bored and had family visiting and was going out of her mind. One of her friends left a reply joking about her killing her family! All far too close to the bone!
I assume her identity has been hidden to protect her four other kids but putting a face to her makes you hate her even more!!
Can you pm me the link I want to look her square in the eyes.
kitty kat
21-Nov-08, 02:01
Can you pm me the link I want to look her square in the eyes.
i also would like to see the face behind all this why should she be allowed to hide name and shame i no some people do not want to know but this woman should be seen i bet she looks like a normal person some one you could walk past in the street and never guess what was going on
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