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cuddlepop
11-Nov-08, 11:04
On the news this morning its been reported that a 13 year old has won the right to refuse a transplant operation.

Apparntly the child protection officer on her case backed her decision.The health board wanted permission from the courts to go ahead with a heart transplant.

The girl in question wanted to die with dignity and not run the risk of a failed heart transpant and a life on medication.

This feels vey personal to me as my own daughter was born with a hole in her heart and had her life saving operation at 9 months.
If giving different circumstances and she had to make the decision now at 13 I would be devastated if she said no.

What do other Orgers think?
Can a child of 13 know that she wants to die?:confused

mccaugm
11-Nov-08, 11:13
I disagree, if my child was of that age and realised the consequences of her decision then I would say its up to them. This does not mean I would be happy but his/her quality of life would be of paramount importance.

I would encourage them to choose as long as I felt they fully understood what they were doing.

A child is said to know right from wrong in law at the age of ten so by 13 they should be well aware.

binbob
11-Nov-08, 11:26
i really think it is up to her..she has developed the heart problem due to the effects of her chemotherapy for leukaemia.
she has been in hospital over the last 9 years...........poor girl has just had enough of suffering.

we surely ALL have the right to choose.i thought hannah was very mature for her young age.i hope she does not suffer too much and god bless her.

Gizmo
11-Nov-08, 11:38
From what has been reported it would seem that her chances of surviving the operation are not that good so that's why she has refused it, the poor girl has just had enough of hospitals and operations.

changilass
11-Nov-08, 11:39
Good to see that sense has prevailed, lets hope others her age will not have to go through the same in order to have their opinions taken seriously.

Everyone should have the right to die with dignity.

cuddlepop
11-Nov-08, 12:14
It wasnt reported on ceefax that her chances of survival were slim or that she was suffering from lukemia.:eek:

Its still a very mature decision to make for a 13 but I can understand her decision to say she's had eneogh now.

Average
11-Nov-08, 12:53
What a brave wee girl. She has obviously thought it through and knows her prognosis. Her decision may also be helping another child who might get the heart which would go to her.

Have so much respect for her.

starry
11-Nov-08, 13:56
I would respect her choice, I think 13 is old enough to decide.

teenybash
11-Nov-08, 14:16
Though very, very sad this young soul has been dealt some grim cards.
Heartbreaking, though it must be I would think the choice she has made will have been with the help of parents, family and doctors, all taking into consideration the risks of the transplant itself and also the chance her leukemia could return..........When she passes from this life to the next may she go with love in her heart to a place of everlasting peace.....God Bless you wee one.:~(

starry
11-Nov-08, 14:21
What a lovely post teeny, you said just what I was thinking but couldn't put into words.

Tighsonas4
11-Nov-08, 22:44
What a lovely post teeny, you said just what I was thinking but couldn't put into words.
amen to that last two posts tony

Tilter
11-Nov-08, 22:50
I agree with all previous posts. Poor poor brave girl.
(Sad story but nice to see all orgers agreeing on it.)

horseman
12-Nov-08, 00:31
Your heart goes out to her----is just a phrase-comfy one of course-but the decisions this little one is is making-God bless her heart-are record breaking. At least I think so. No she is not old -able enough to make such a tremendous decision on her own.-Who said she was on her own? Not me, -but it seems to me that anyone who is pointing her in that direction needs looking at. Thats my uptake of it .

Oddquine
12-Nov-08, 00:40
I agree with all the posts to date.

If my offspring at that age had ever been in the position of having to make that decision, I'd have accepted (if not agreed with it), and spent the rest of their time on this earth making memories for those left behind.

trix
12-Nov-08, 01:43
i dina agree....in ma opinion she shouldna be allowed til make at decision.

people o' a sane, mature mind isna allowed til control when they live an die an' nor should a minor.

she should be brave an battle on...

golach
12-Nov-08, 01:49
i dina agree....in ma opinion she shouldna be allowed til make at decision.

people o' a sane, mature mind isna allowed til control when they live an die an' nor should a minor.

she should be brave an battle on...
Dinna be stupid, she knows the pain she has been in, she also knows it is not the perfect answer, having a transplant is not as easy as many would think, she has chosen as far as I am concerned, to do what she hopes will be the less painful way

trix
12-Nov-08, 02:02
Dinna be stupid

dina call me stupid...

im entitled til ma opinion. i think it should be against 'e law for a minor til make 'at decision.

Oddquine
12-Nov-08, 03:23
i think it should be against 'e law for a minor til make 'at decision.

Why?

I must say I have always been of the opinion that parents who put children through a procedure with less than an optimum chance of success with the prospect of the rest of their lives on drugs if it is successful are not really thinking of the child, but more of how they'd feel if the child died.

Imo, if a child is old enough to understand the prognosis, the options and the consequences....then they are old enough to decide what they want to do about it.

Being a minor is irrelevant, because nobody owns anyone else once they reach the age of reason........which can often be younger than 13.......and often a lot older.

rockchick
12-Nov-08, 07:33
Having heard the details of the girls illnesses over the years I happen to agree with her decision. Even if the transplant is successful she will have to be on a different set of drugs for the rest of her life - it wouldn't "cure" her.

However the question is: is a 13 year old enough to make such a decision? I'm amused that that this decision was allowed, yet she would have been denited the ability to choose whether or not to have sex.

cuddlepop
12-Nov-08, 09:36
Having heard the details of the girls illnesses over the years I happen to agree with her decision. Even if the transplant is successful she will have to be on a different set of drugs for the rest of her life - it wouldn't "cure" her.

However the question is: is a 13 year old enough to make such a decision? I'm amused that that this decision was allowed, yet she would have been denited the ability to choose whether or not to have sex.


Thats a very good point Rockchick.
In the eyes of the law she cant vote,buy alcohol,have sex or marry but she can choose to die.:confused
I now can understand why she would want too but a 13 can see life totally different to an adult.

kitty kat
12-Nov-08, 10:23
no doubt it has been a hard life so far for this young lady and this must have been a heart breaking choice no child or parent will should ever have to make..

but at 13 she is old enough to make it, she has been told all the options and would rather enjoy the time she has then spend the rest of her days on tablets with the chance of her leukemia returning due to her weak immune system,

should any one have the right to choose to end there life? ( imo this is what she has done)

is it just because of her age?

cuddlepop
12-Nov-08, 12:56
no doubt it has been a hard life so far for this young lady and this must have been a heart breaking choice no child or parent will should ever have to make..

but at 13 she is old enough to make it, she has been told all the options and would rather enjoy the time she has then spend the rest of her days on tablets with the chance of her leukemia returning due to her weak immune system,

should any one have the right to choose to end there life? ( imo this is what she has done)

is it just because of her age?

kittykat I agree with you that she is choosing to end her life by refusing a transplant,does that not question the law then when it comes to euthanasia.People have even gone to Europe to be givin the right to die with dignity and yet a 13 year old can say eneogh.:confused

teenybash
12-Nov-08, 13:29
kittykat I agree with you that she is choosing to end her life by refusing a transplant,does that not question the law then when it comes to euthanasia.People have even gone to Europe to be givin the right to die with dignity and yet a 13 year old can say eneogh.:confused

Cuddlepop you have hit on a very good point that was running through my head. Taking all things into consideration, the situation this brave young lass is in, may well open discussions again on the right to 'die with dignity.' Let's hope it does.

golach
12-Nov-08, 13:40
kittykat I agree with you that she is choosing to end her life by refusing a transplant,does that not question the law then when it comes to euthanasia.People have even gone to Europe to be givin the right to die with dignity and yet a 13 year old can say eneogh.:confused
Sorry I disagree cuddlepop, this very brave lassie is not committing suicide. Far from it, she has chosen not to have a transplant, that may not even work. The poor wee lassie has gone through life suffering operation after operation, and has decided enough is enough. She will live out the rest of her natural life, all be it, shorter than many, like any other person who has a hole in their heart. So no way do I even class her in the same category as the persons who wish to take part in euthanasia.

changilass
12-Nov-08, 14:59
Definition from the BBC website:-

Euthanasia

Euthanasia is the deliberate killing of a person for the benefit of that person.



This young lady is not killing herself or even asking someone else to do it for her, so it is not euthanasia and therefore does not give a precedent for euthanasia, it does however give a legal precedent for someone in the same circumstances.

starry
12-Nov-08, 15:13
When I saw her being interviewed last night they said it was not her regular medical team who had registered the child protection but a locum doctor who had only seen her once.
Her regular team are in full agreement with her decision.

Average
12-Nov-08, 17:15
she should be brave an battle on...


Are you saying that she is not being brave by making the decision which she has?

I cant understand the rest of you post but Im pretty sure its equally as misguided.

JimH
12-Nov-08, 18:00
Are you saying that she is not being brave by making the decision which she has?

I cant understand the rest of you post but Im pretty sure its equally as misguided.
I have to agree with your comments - all but one of the posts here support the young lady's decision - and make no mistake, The life this girl has had, has made her far more mature than her years. When you see suffering like this it makes ME question religious beliefs.
I just hope this young lady is able to have peace and comfort for the rest of her life.

percy toboggan
12-Nov-08, 18:45
It's not for me to criticise the parents but I will anyway.

The father gave a rather detached view on the radio...he said they (parents) had very little input to the decision and Hannah arrived at it 'a bit like a grown up''

Having seen their photograph today somethings seems not quite right.

I have no idea what they, and more importantly their daughter have endured but I do have a deep sense of unease at this story. Has the girl , I wonder been ushered into the world of religious belief where she might feel something better lies ahead?

She'll be a long time dead, like the rest of us and surely the hope of life is better than the grim reality of certain death. I respect her choice but wonder if she fully understands it..she is still a child. A child deserving of all our sympathy.
I thank my lucky stars I'm not in this situation and I feel for the child...whom I do not judge, but I do feel the parents - particularly the Dad - have sidestepped this process to an extent, may theire daughter gain some enjoyment from her remaining weeks and months. The awful truth of this story is too sad to fully contemplate.

trix
12-Nov-08, 20:27
am no criticisin her decision, who can blame her for wantin oot? im criticisin 'e fact that she is given 'e choice in 'e first place.

in ma opinion she is too young til make a decision which dictates whether she lives or dies...

perhaps her young mind feels responsible for any distress that she is causin her parents, maybe she feels that her young siblings (if she hes any) deserves a chance at life withoot her distractin their parents.
maybe its a financial thing??

maybe 'e real reason she has decided til die is cause she disna want til put her family through any more heartache.

who kens what goes through a troubled 13 years old lassys mind.

choost cause she says so disna make it right, at 'e end o' 'e day, she is but a child....

honey
12-Nov-08, 20:39
13 years old might be a young age tomake such a huge decision, but she isnt a "normal" 13 year old, she is a 13 year old who has gone through more in her short life than a lot of us ever will.. so that makes a difference id say..

trix
12-Nov-08, 20:48
13 years old might be a young age tomake such a huge decision, but she isnt a "normal" 13 year old, she is a 13 year old who has gone through more in her short life than a lot of us ever will.. so that makes a difference id say..

she's still a minor.

she may have gona through alot more than most o' us ever will, but she hesna experienced half o' what a 'normal' 13 year old girl should have.

therefore, her maturity levels cana come in til'ed. she may be more mature in some ways, but less immature in ither ways, due to her life experiences.

percy toboggan
12-Nov-08, 20:56
I think you are right trix, and the tone of the girl's father in his interview suggested he was happy to allow her to make the decision, and not overly unhappy with her choice.

Instincts at their photo made me feel uneasy...they do not look like the sharpest knives in the drawer to be honest....nor am I but I'd not let a daughter of mine - who was twelve last year (thirteen sounds older but it isn't much) make this decision without 'much influence'

trix
12-Nov-08, 21:05
Are you saying that she is not being brave by making the decision which she has?

I cant understand the rest of you post but Im pretty sure its equally as misguided.

course she has been brave and for a child til be thinkin along 'e lines of death, well, at speaks for itsel.

i think its yersels that are misguided, in thinkin that a small child could be responsible enough, an hev 'e right til make a decision that inadvertably ends her life....

i cana believe that its no against 'e law....but then it must be by time had a case til win :confused

trix
12-Nov-08, 21:09
exactly perce, a child must hev boundries.

she should be encouraged til think that death is not an option. if her parents are switherin on whether its a guid decision or no then as far as she's concerned - 'e jurys oot!

she's far too young til deal 'wi 'e concept o' death.

Ash
13-Nov-08, 11:52
just watched her on this morning
she is a very clever and intelligent young lady
its her choice, she knows exactly what is going on

her mother was lovely aswell
its must be so hard

percy toboggan
13-Nov-08, 18:20
just watched her on this morning
she is a very clever and intelligent young lady
its her choice, she knows exactly what is going on

her mother was lovely aswell
its must be so hard

I'll take your word for it and withdraw my comments about the mother.
I still think the lass is too young to abdicate her mortality.
She looks sharp, and look savvy...but come on...she's 13!!

trix
13-Nov-08, 18:24
just watched her on this morning
she is a very clever and intelligent young lady
its her choice, she knows exactly what is going on


she's still a minor....

Gizmo
13-Nov-08, 18:57
course she has been brave and for a child til be thinkin along 'e lines of death, well, at speaks for itsel.

i think its yersels that are misguided, in thinkin that a small child could be responsible enough, an hev 'e right til make a decision that inadvertably ends her life....

i cana believe that its no against 'e law....but then it must be by time had a case til win :confused

There was no court case involved, the health authority involved believed it was in the best interest of the girl to have the operation and were considering legal proceedings if she refused treatment, but after a consultation with the girl where she showed complete understanding of the outcome of refusing treatment they backed down.

starry
13-Nov-08, 19:01
One locum doctor felt it was in her best interests to have the operation and contacted social work, her regular medical team are in agreement that an operation is not neccessarely in her best interest.

Ash
13-Nov-08, 20:29
so because she is a minor she cant decide the outcome of her life!!!!
i mean come on... its her body that is going through all this pain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![evil]

cuddlepop
13-Nov-08, 20:36
so because she is a minor she cant decide the outcome of her life!!!!
i mean come on... its her body that is going through all this pain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![evil]

I dont think anyones in disagreement about the level of pain she's in or for how long she's been ill.
The fact,in law is that she is a minor.

If she really wanted to end her pain and the parents wanted her to have her surgery,at 16 she could stop all medication and no one could stop that decision.
13 is still too young to say no more surgery
.I still believe that decision was influenced.:(

Ash
13-Nov-08, 20:47
no one can judge
no one has been in there shoes

loobyloo
14-Nov-08, 01:21
If she were mine, it would break my heart but I would let her choose.
I think she has a better idea of pain, mortality and spirituality than a lot of folks three times her age because of what she has been through.
She spoke very eloquently. Devastating..............

JimH
14-Nov-08, 17:38
[quote=cuddlepop;457706]I dont think anyones in disagreement about the level of pain she's in or for how long she's been ill.
The fact,in law is that she is a minor.

What has this got to do with it?????

cuddlepop
14-Nov-08, 20:54
[quote=cuddlepop;457706]I dont think anyones in disagreement about the level of pain she's in or for how long she's been ill.
The fact,in law is that she is a minor.

What has this got to do with it?????


A minor is the responsibility of an adult until they are 16.
Not in this case it would appear though.:confused

TBH
14-Nov-08, 21:13
i dina agree....in ma opinion she shouldna be allowed til make at decision.

people o' a sane, mature mind isna allowed til control when they live an die an' nor should a minor.

she should be brave an battle on...I don't think an operation should be forced on anybody capable of weighing up the possible scenarios.
In her case it seems to be a choice between dying in hospital or dying at home with her family.
As for being brave, her choice of how she wishes to die will never put that in question.