View Full Version : American Right-Wing Merchandise
I was looking for American Football jerseys when I stumbled upon a site selling Republican and Right-Wing Merchandise. I assume that the following examples are supposed to be humorous but I found them a little bit over the top and a sad indictment of the mentality shown by some citizens of such a powerful nation. Some of the items available are not fit for this forum. I think such an attitude, albeit attempting to be humorous, can only fuel hatred on both sides. What do other orgers think? Harmless fun or warped xenophobia?
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i237/scorrie57/356074311226.gif
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i237/scorrie57/3560742139650.jpg
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i237/scorrie57/3560741796436.jpg
Bad Manners
30-Sep-08, 15:43
Whilst we look at these things with a wry humour a lot of Americans take it very serious. no wonder other countrys find it hard to understand we they want to talk of peace
I was looking for American Football jerseys when I stumbled upon a site selling Republican and Right-Wing Merchandise. I assume that the following examples are supposed to be humorous but I found them a little bit over the top and a sad indictment of the mentality shown by some citizens of such a powerful nation. Some of the items available are not fit for this forum. I think such an attitude, albeit attempting to be humorous, can only fuel hatred on both sides. What do other orgers think? Harmless fun or warped xenophobia?
I agree that the examples you showed are not harmless fun, and indeed do display a sense of warped xenophobia, scorrie. But I can honestly say I've never seen anyone wearing T-shirts or the like bearing such emblems over here. Nor have I come across anyone with that warped sense of humour. Certainly not the kind of people I'd want to be associated with, if I did!
Harmless fun or warped xenophobia?
http://www.internetweekly.org/images/bush_neocon_pledge.jpg
What about this?
This one caught my attention.
http://www.motherjones.com/photos/aryan-outfitters/
Melancholy Man
30-Sep-08, 19:05
Scorrie, d'you have a link for the site? It is difficult to determine if this is by genuine believers, or a smear job by the smart and anti-racist Left which can suspend normal rules in the name of satire (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/07/14/article-0-01F23B3C00000578-533_468x685.jpg).
Plus, the loons responsible for the image linked to by Rheghead really believe it.
percy toboggan
30-Sep-08, 19:23
Live and let live, and do not impose your blinkered liberal sensitivities on the rest of the world. I feel sure that a visit - accidental, or otherwise to many middle-eastern websites would find far more bloodthirsty, cutting references to the United States of America.
The attitude displayed here was exemplified by gung-ho comments and slogans painted on to World War Two bombers, and the bombs themselves.
Attitudes like yours led to appeasement.
Why on earth though would anyone want an American 'football' jersey?
New England Patriots perhaps....perhaps not?
(p.s. perhaps if 3,000 Caithnessians had been murdered by suicidal terrorists whilst at work in two buildings in Wick, you might feel a little differently)
Melancholy Man
30-Sep-08, 19:47
(p.s. perhaps if 3,000 Caithnessians had been murdered by suicidal terrorists whilst at work in two buildings in Wick, you might feel a little differently)
Hundreds of Muslims died (http://islam.about.com/blvictims.htm) unintentionally on 11/9. And even this multiple extinguishing of human life has been dwarfed many times over against Muslims in Algeria or Iraq or Saudi or Pakistan or Afghanistan by other Muslims.
Why on earth though would anyone want an American 'football' jersey?
I have followed the Redskins for 34 years, I would rather watch them than Man City any day. As you say, live and let live.
By the way, are Man City now under Arab ownership? That would be a bit ironic ;)
Well, let me chime in as an American and a Conservative. The pictures Scorrie posted, while I have no doubt they can be purchased as T-Shirts, would be unwelcome and not tolerated around myself, nor likely any of my associates and friends.
In many cases highly political people in America like to characterize those they have even minor disagreements with as cartoon like characters with outrageous beliefs. This is no different than many of the fascist movements of the 20's and 30's and is sadly once again becoming the norm all too often. It is easier to dehumanize those you disagree with once you think of them in terms of nearly comical beliefs that they don't really hold or advocate.
So I am sure someone thought this was funny when they made it, but I don't personally know anyone who holds these beliefs or would even think of advocating them.
Bruce H
northener
30-Sep-08, 22:08
Personally, I think they are quite amusing...and that doesn't mean I agree with the sentiments printed on the shirts.
It's not just the States that has stuff like this. You can purchase your very own 'poor taste' T-shirts in the UK from www.farcanal.com (http://www.farcanal.com) . Most of the slogans are just funny T-shirts with a generally abusive message. Unfortunately, there are some aimed at Immigrants that go a little beyond 'humour'....
I cant put any on here, but have a trawl around their website and you'll find them.
Melancholy Man
30-Sep-08, 22:11
Here's (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4746221.stm) another victim of the Jihadis.
The attitude displayed here was exemplified by gung-ho comments and slogans painted on to World War Two bombers, and the bombs themselves.
I wonder if this city's residents enjoyed the delicious irony of a bomb called Little Boy.
Boy, how they laughed!!
http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/28/76528-004-22682C6D.jpg
I wonder if this city's residents enjoyed the delicious irony of a bomb called Little Boy.
Boy, how they laughed!!
http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/28/76528-004-22682C6D.jpg
I bet those whose houses were still standing were laughing.;)
Melancholy Man
01-Oct-08, 14:27
I doubt very much they laughed. Equally, though, they soon came to terms with it and didn't have the face the continued conventional bombing raids which, in Toyko that year alone, had killed as many.
A US Marine veteran of WWII posts here. There's a very good chance he was on Iwo Jima at the time, hoping against hope he was not going to have to do this again and again. Had Truman not authorized the A-bombs, he should have been impeached.
<ducks and runs>
northener
01-Oct-08, 18:53
.......... Had Truman not authorized the A-bombs, he should have been impeached.
<ducks and runs>
I'd agree with that 100% MM. Too many apologists around who weren't involved in WW11
George Brims
01-Oct-08, 20:35
A US Marine veteran of WWII posts here. There's a very good chance he was on Iwo Jima at the time, hoping against hope he was not going to have to do this again and again. Had Truman not authorized the A-bombs, he should have been impeached.
<ducks and runs>
Actually historical research has shown that the bombs had surprisingly little impact on the Japanese decision to surrender. This was partly because the devastation was so overwhelming it could neither be communicated properly, nor comprehended or believed. That's not to say they had no impact, but it might have taken another few weeks for the true scale of the horror to get through to the right people. The final nail in the coffin was a report by the Imperial Navy stating how little they thought they would be able to do to stop an invasion of the mainland. Can you imagine the Royal Navy saying they would not be able to stop Hitler in 1940? That would have changed things a lot.
percy toboggan
01-Oct-08, 20:38
Blimey! we agree on summat MM.
Tens of thousands of American lives were saved by the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs. In 1945 they counted for more than Japanese civillian lives. Sad but true.
Scorrie: Manchester City in the hands of Arabs is to be lamented for many reasons.
I wish you well with your Washington Redskins. To each their own. I did not suggest the wearing of American football jerseys be prohibited. Personally though I'd like to see all replica shirts banned (notwithstanding my live and let live atittude in certain areas)...especially on middle age fat blokes. I have never owned a 'Thomas Cook' shirt, nor am I likely to. The new owners might curry favour and ditch the silly new badge which was introduced a few years ago and revert to the humble and simple one which sufficed for decades previously.Incidentally if todays (and yesterday's)City were playing in my front garden, whilst the back needed mowing then my attention would be taken by the longer grass. Modern football is very much out of favour with me, and is likely to remain so. Sorry to deflect the thread.
Melancholy Man
01-Oct-08, 23:20
Blimey! we agree on summat MM.
Yes, it's most disconcerting. Individual Japanese lives were not, of course, worth less than individual American lives, but the President's legal duty was to protect American lives. Had he forgone an opportunity which did precipitate the final capitulation of Imperial Japan, and thus continued a conflict in which tens of thousand of further GIs would certainly have died (not to mention hundreds of thousands of Japanese soldiers and civilians, both through Allied action and suicide), he would have failed in this duty.
Actually historical research has shown that the bombs had surprisingly little impact on the Japanese decision to surrender.
I'm unclear what you mean by this. It resulted in unconditional surrender! That's a pretty big impact. Looking back, however, with full access to the historical record and seeing past the fog of war is always going to result in a different appraisal.
You say the Imperial Japanese Navy conceded that it would ultimately succumb to a land invasion. Perfectly true. The likes of Kochi Kido, the Emperor's right-hand-man, would afterwards say that he'd saved millions of lives by accepting the surrender.
What puts a different slant on it, though, is that there were senior military and political characters, such as the Prime Minister, who had previously announced their absolute scorn for the option of surrender offered by the Potsdam Declaration. Nor would the sheer scale of destruction at Hiroshima and Nagasaki have been hidden: both cities were just a few dozen miles from the seat of government, along still functioning train lines.
Even after the bombs, even with the Soviets pressing in from the north, even after the Emperor agreed to surrender, there was a *coup* attempt on 14 August. A surprise bombing raid disrupted this. Thank Christ, because there was unlikely to be more radioactive material.
Welcomefamily
01-Oct-08, 23:37
Amusing T shirts. I like the oil one, it summs up the problem right away.
First I thought this thread was about collecting bits off US military hardware.
First I thought this thread was about collecting bits off US military hardware.
Well, you sure as hell need to work on your interpretation skills. As you were wandering about like a Colon Ostrich, while the rest of us were on topic!!
Amusing T shirts. I like the oil one, it summs up the problem right away.
I wish I could share the amusement of the notion that education should be ditched in favour of building more bombs. The inference is that, people who can afford to educate their kids can do so, while poor people should not have government money wasted on educating THEIR offspring. More Arabs can be bombed and more Oil taken, if money is spent on "Defence" instead.
Hilarious!!
Melancholy Man
02-Oct-08, 00:43
Alternatively, it's a tasteless spoof simply designed to make a few bob for the site owners. The paleo-con mentality it's aping is more likely to have *opposed* Iraq or Afghanistan: no American blood for Arabs or Afghans or big business; keep the money to be spent here, and leave them to languish under Saddam or the Taleban.
Which is precisely what the likes of the Stop the War Coalition has been saying for several years now.
Ohn dear scorrie, back to the same tired old party slogans. Do try and come up with something original I've heard all the old jokes before.
By the way, did you not hear about the Russian Blackjack nuclear bomber which was within thirty seconds flying time from Hull?
More than one Country has armed forces. Funny how some people are happy to pretend it is otherwise and can only squawk about the same one all the time.
Here are some figures for you to think about
Total Number of Armed Forces Personnel
China - 2,810,000 (admittedly only to be expected, it is rather a big Country)
Russia – 1,529,000
US – 1,366,000
India – 1,303,000
Arms Exports
Russia – 6.2 billion dollars
US – 5.5 billion
France – 2.1 billion
Britain – 0.9 billion
Keep banging the drum scorrie, you never know, the little Red Star might twinkle in the darkness of the night once again sometime, but don’t hold your breath.
Do you remember the site you found the badges on? I rather fancy some of them, they look great.
By the way, are Man City now under Arab ownership? That would be a bit ironic ;) That's another good reason why I support Man Utd. They are owned by honest, hard working good ol' boys I'm glad to say.
I wish I could share the amusement of the notion that education should be ditched in favour of building more bombs. The inference is that, people who can afford to educate their kids can do so, while poor people should not have government money wasted on educating THEIR offspring. More Arabs can be bombed and more Oil taken, if money is spent on "Defence" instead.
Hilarious!!
With all due respect, I don't know how it works in Caithness, but in the US we do in fact buy the oil - for about US $120 a barrel.
Bruce
oldmarine
02-Oct-08, 05:07
I doubt very much they laughed. Equally, though, they soon came to terms with it and didn't have the face the continued conventional bombing raids which, in Toyko that year alone, had killed as many.
A US Marine veteran of WWII posts here. There's a very good chance he was on Iwo Jima at the time, hoping against hope he was not going to have to do this again and again. Had Truman not authorized the A-bombs, he should have been impeached.
<ducks and runs>
I may be the US Marine veteran of WWII referred to here. I was on Okinawa training for the landing that we were to make on the Japanese home land when the two A-bombs were dropped. One of our regiments went into Japan and saw the defenses the Japanese Empire would make with old men, women and children as the defense force. The estimate was that at least 2-1/2 million lives would be lost. The losses were much less during the dropping of the two A-bombs. Truman was my hero then, but I became less supportive of him when he attempted to combine all the American forces under a unified command. Fortunately, there were many veterans in Congress who resisted his attempt. He became quite angry at the Marine Corps and referred to them as the Navy's police force. He later apologized for his remarks. Most US Marines were sent to China (I among them even though I had spent 36 months in the Pacific island hopping and making four combat landings on Japanese islands). Fortunately I spent only 3 months in China before returning home to the States. The US Marines kept a presense in China for nearly 4 years before the Chinese Communists took over and all Marines were pulled out of China. Thanks for your post.
Melancholy Man
02-Oct-08, 12:47
I may be the US Marine veteran of WWII referred to here.
And your mates would have said to St. Peter on arrival at the Pearly Gates, another Marine reporting to you, sir, I can tell, I've served my time in Hell. No amount of reading academic history and dry research can compensate for salty eyewitness accounts, such as your post or the writings of James Jones.
Alexander Sorukov's The Sun was eye-popping - a war council discusses Soviet incursions and, on going outside, we run into GI jeeps; the utterly-childlike Emperor; the petrified Japanese American officer - but lacks the sense of personal desolation in John Boorman's Hell in the Pacific, as Lee Marvin and Toshiro Mifune exorcize their own demons.
I was on Okinawa training for the landing that we were to make on the Japanese home land when the two A-bombs were dropped. One of our regiments went into Japan and saw the defenses the Japanese Empire would make with old men, women and children as the defense force.
As if the multiple Masadas of Okinawa weren't bad enough. In Europe, Hitler had resolved to burn Germany and punish the people for their perceived weakness at the likes of Stalingrad. The Japanese militarists, racist and right-wing though they were, were not nearly as irrationally demented, but were still willing to sacrifice any number of Japanese to avoid the 'dishonour' of defeat. Those instant sun-rises over Hiroshima and Nagasaki can actually be said to have given the douters a way out: thus, the Japanese people had been defeated not by weakness but by science.
The oft-made comparison of two warring Imperial designs or of contrasting the A-bombs to Pearl Harbour is either ill-informed or plain racist, I'm afraid. Racist because it airbrushes out Nanjing or the diabolical Unit 731, whose effects you'd have seen in China, or the Java famine.
Tens of millions of East Asians also welcomed the A-bombs.
With all due respect, I don't know how it works in Caithness, but in the US we do in fact buy the oil - for about US $120 a barrel.
Surely it's also that the cheap price of fuel is down to domestic reserves? And Alberta.
Ohn dear scorrie, back to the same tired old party slogans. Do try and come up with something original I've heard all the old jokes before.
By the way, did you not hear about the Russian Blackjack nuclear bomber which was within thirty seconds flying time from Hull?
More than one Country has armed forces. Funny how some people are happy to pretend it is otherwise and can only squawk about the same one all the time.
Here are some figures for you to think about
Total Number of Armed Forces Personnel
China - 2,810,000 (admittedly only to be expected, it is rather a big Country)
Russia – 1,529,000
US – 1,366,000
India – 1,303,000
Arms Exports
Russia – 6.2 billion dollars
US – 5.5 billion
France – 2.1 billion
Britain – 0.9 billion
Keep banging the drum scorrie, you never know, the little Red Star might twinkle in the darkness of the night once again sometime, but don’t hold your breath.
Do you remember the site you found the badges on? I rather fancy some of them, they look great.
That's another good reason why I support Man Utd. They are owned by honest, hard working good ol' boys I'm glad to say.
Party Slogans?
I don't know what YOU are on about but I know that the purpose of this thread was to question the merits of supposed humorous merchandise which deals with American attitude concerning their role in world events. I have no doubt whatever that similar merchandise/attitudes exist in other countries, aimed right back at the USA. Just because that is the case, it does not make it right to go about wearing a tee shirt stating "Jihad?, I'll give you Jihad you rag-headed, heathen, Bar Steward"
As a country that is considered "more civilised" by some of it's people, the USA should surely be above playground name-calling and labelling some of it's own citizens as Liberal Chickens, whilst glorifying bombing of other countries.
I mentioned Hiroshima purely to question whether it was humorous to have names written on bombs, particularly atomic bombs. I fully realise that the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki brought an end to a war that could otherwise have dragged on for an unknown amount of time. My point, on this occasion, was whether such events are a source for humour.
With regards to the images I posted, the site I copied them from IS genuine. I made my way through the secure checkout, right up to the point where I had to submit my order. If you do want the merchandise, I can PM the website to you. International shipping is $7 for the item I was about to "purchase", which was a T-shirt rather than a badge. The badges are only for those with small cojones I suspect, as I would imagine it takes bigger "Bawz" to go about wearing a more visible display of your "Politics". Perhaps that explains why Sporran has not seen many "Patriots" sporting the hilarious merchandise ;)
George Brims
02-Oct-08, 19:15
The names Fat Man and Little Boy for the two nuclear weapons were not jokes. They were simply names. Every piece of military hardware has to have some kind of name. These came from the fact that Fat Man was a spherical implosion device using plutonium, while Little Boy was a gun type device (cylindrical in shape) using uranium.
There's a picture here: http://www.atomicmuseum.com/Tour/dd2.cfm
Personally though I'd like to see all replica shirts banned (notwithstanding my live and let live atittude in certain areas)...especially on middle age fat blokes.
Middle aged fat blokes wearing NFL shirts are exempt from this, sensible, ruling as applied to soccer shirts. While a Lardy would never appear in a Premiership side, he has his place in any good NFL line.
Check out Sam Adams, a lineman who has had more clubs than Jack Nicklaus:-
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i237/scorrie57/20060803-Pc-D6-0800.jpg
He is listed at 350lbs but I suspect he wouldn't weigh as little as that if they weighed him on the Moon!!
The names Fat Man and Little Boy for the two nuclear weapons were not jokes. They were simply names.
If I recall correctly, Napalm was called Orange Crush. If you really HAVE to give your weapons names, you might as well make them sound really friendly. A droppie o juice for e bairns of Vietnam eh? The tears of laughter would have been rolling down the bairns cheeks at that irony, if only they hadn't been chemically burnt off!!
A museum of bombs? What next? Concentration Camp theme parks?
Melancholy Man
02-Oct-08, 20:57
Oh, this is going from bad to worse! The nicknaming of weapons was, coming from men who were in the very real danger of death and injury themselves, mordant humour. I'm not saying it was right, I'm just saying it was.
Before we drift onto Agent Orange, five other defoliants - Agents Blue, Green, Pink, Purple and White - were used, although not in such quantities. It was during their use that Agents Green, Orange, Pink and Purple were found to degrade into dioxins, and that they did more than simply remove the jungle canopy and reveal the Viet Cong. Thus, it was stopped.
This was at the time that American personnel were routinely exposed, and routine application of DDT in Western countries (including DDT parties) was taking place as we now use bug-spray. Post hoc knowledge is a wonderful thing.
The difference between war museums and concentration/death camp celebrations is that the former remember conflicts in which conventional armies opposed each other or strategic targeting of military or industrial installations (which Dresden or Hiroshima and Nagasaki were, I am sorry to say, arguably were), and do not glory in the deaths of civilians. The deaths camps and Einsatzgruppen and whatever explicitly targeted civilians of no military significance.
Scorrie, when you talk about chemical burns, my guess is that you're referring to Kim Phuc (http://www.kimfoundation.com/) who was the victim of action by forces from the Republic of Vietnam. I have no reason to consider you as a apologist for Uncle Ho, but the massacres and repression by him and his acolytes are usually minimized in favour polemics of the USA's actions (real and fabricated).
So, why does the Republic of Vietnam not get the same Get Out of Gaol card?
On Vietnam:
Perhaps our most positive contribution to peace-making was to affirm and value Vietnamese culture in the face of the appalling destruction which we saw around us.
I believe that it is profound arrogance which initiates aid programmes which force western methods of education, medicine or agriculture on people with traditions longer than our own; {...}
I came home from Vietnam convinced that the real task of development lies at home at our own door. (http://qfp.quakerweb.org.uk/qfp29-06.html)
Aye, right.
I know for a fact there are Vietnam veterans in Caithness. Any reading?
Oh, this is going from bad to worse! The nicknaming of weapons was, coming from men who were in the very real danger of death and injury themselves, mordant humour. I'm not saying it was right, I'm just saying it was.
Who coined the term "Orange Crush" to represent Napalm then? Was it a chemist, or some poor GI in the firing line?
In the same vein, who decided to call those Atomic Bombs Little Boy and Fat Man?
Without even a casual glance at the form book, I would be willing to bet that the latter names did NOT come from men in ANY danger of death. Unless sitting in a back room, drinking gallons of coffee and eating tons of doughnuts be deemed to be "very real danger of death"
Most of warfare consists of having drones willing to follow orders without fail. I doubt that many would be pondering gentle irony whilst being instructed to kill, of an evening.
Who coined the term "Orange Crush" to represent Napalm then? Was it a chemist, or some poor GI in the firing line?
In the same vein, who decided to call those Atomic Bombs Little Boy and Fat Man?
Without even a casual glance at the form book, I would be willing to bet that the latter names did NOT come from men in ANY danger of death. Unless sitting in a back room, drinking gallons of coffee and eating tons of doughnuts be deemed to be "very real danger of death"
Most of warfare consists of having drones willing to follow orders without fail. I doubt that many would be pondering gentle irony whilst being instructed to kill, of an evening.
Here are some more weapons system names that I have aquaintence with:
Stone Ghost
Senior Trend
Senior Year
Classic Wizard
Follow Ruby
I won't speak for the other US services, but the US Marines highly prize those who are not drones. It is one reason why they are so effective in combat and largely feared by the enemies. The Marine Corps approach is to instill in every Marine, officer to bottom rung enlisted, the seeds of leadership, critical thinking and self-reliance.
This is because many many times in battle a small unit (4 man fire team, 16 man quad) will encounter the enemy and need to respond immediately. Sadly in Iraq and Afghanistan first contact often happens when the bad guys open up with warning on a group walking through the streets to help keep order and peace. This means that many times 2-4 brave Marines are injured or even killed before the squad knows what happened. The next few seconds determines who lives and who dies. Many times the ones getting hit are the Sergeant (I am a former Sergeant myself) or the Lieutenant.
If they were drones, they would be struck dumb and immobile, while some thug with a gun or RPG mowed them down. Instead what normally happens is the team will instantly switch from civilian contact mode (talking to the locals, handing out candy and bottles of water) into combat mode. Typically without a spoken word. Whomever is still able to fight will divide into returning fire, treating the wounded and getting the civilians out of the line of fire.
The people of Iraq and Afghanistan have seen this enough time to learn 2 lessons. 1) You can trust the Marines (In Iraq they call us "White Sleeves") and 2) Never fight them because they will kill you. You can shoot the leaders, and they still fight.
Sorry for the ramble. Just wanted to share the difference between the common notion of "drones" and what real Marines are like.
If you want to see a movie production that shows Marines in the closest thing I have seen to accurate, go watch Aliens (the first sequel). The fellow who plays Gunny Apone is an actual Marine and re-wrote all of their dialog.
Bruce H
Melancholy Man
03-Oct-08, 02:36
I actually have a feeling Orange Crush was an album by R.E.M.! A point still stands about nicknames, though. I remain sympathetic to the mordant humour of men in the firing-line, which reduces the further up the command we go (and would be non-existent in the case of the stickers). As discussed above, though, Little/Fat Boy were coined by technicians and scientists on the Manhattan Project, which would have included the likes of Oppenheimer. Who knows what they were thinking?
Napalm is not classed as a chemical weapon (same for white phosphorous), but as an incendiary device. Yes, it can burn skin and flesh, and burn horribly, but no more than high explosives over a limited radius. My point about Kim Phuc was that if the mythologizing of her image were entirely honourable - a true horror at innocents caught up in war - similar attention in the popular narrative would be directed towards the civilian massacres and repression by the Viet Cong.
That they're not suggests that it ain't opposition to mistreatment of civilians or of war in general, but simple opposition to anything that the USA does. There are still people, supposedly respected journalists some of them, who attempt to claim Western agencies trained the Khmer Rouge (or the Taleban). My Lai was perpetrated by American troops, but it was also halted by American troops. And multiple My Lais have been perpetrated against the Humoung in the past 30 years.
War is a series of cock-ups and mistakes which, for the victors, coalesce into a success. For the most part, its victims come to terms with their experiences (whilst not forgetting them). Post-1945, with the wretched Soviet system fueling dissent, the victims of 'Imperial' war (i.e. British, French and American) have been encouraged to feel they've been especially aggreived. There is no 'closure' for their suffering.
Imperial Japan received an alibi for the East Asian War in which multiples of the A-bomb dead died at Nanjing, and dozens of times more than that died throughout China and Korea and the Far East.
Party Slogans?
I don't know what YOU are on about but I know that the purpose of this thread was to question the merits of supposed humorous merchandise which deals with American attitude concerning their role in world events. I have no doubt whatever that similar merchandise/attitudes exist in other countries, aimed right back at the USA. Just because that is the case, it does not make it right to go about wearing a tee shirt stating "Jihad?, I'll give you Jihad you rag-headed, heathen, Bar Steward"
As a country that is considered "more civilised" by some of it's people, the USA should surely be above playground name-calling and labelling some of it's own citizens as Liberal Chickens, whilst glorifying bombing of other countries.
I mentioned Hiroshima purely to question whether it was humorous to have names written on bombs, particularly atomic bombs. I fully realise that the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki brought an end to a war that could otherwise have dragged on for an unknown amount of time. My point, on this occasion, was whether such events are a source for humour.
With regards to the images I posted, the site I copied them from IS genuine. I made my way through the secure checkout, right up to the point where I had to submit my order. If you do want the merchandise, I can PM the website to you. International shipping is $7 for the item I was about to "purchase", which was a T-shirt rather than a badge. The badges are only for those with small cojones I suspect, as I would imagine it takes bigger "Bawz" to go about wearing a more visible display of your "Politics". Perhaps that explains why Sporran has not seen many "Patriots" sporting the hilarious merchandise ;)
If I recall correctly, Napalm was called Orange Crush. If you really HAVE to give your weapons names, you might as well make them sound really friendly. A droppie o juice for e bairns of Vietnam eh? The tears of laughter would have been rolling down the bairns cheeks at that irony, if only they hadn't been chemically burnt off!!
A museum of bombs? What next? Concentration Camp theme parks?
Napalm, Orange Crush? Yet another convenient Myth in the making. The name “Orange Crush” was a pure invention by the group REM and used in a song in 1988, long after Vietnam had ended. It never was a “friendly” name given to Napalm by the military. The name “Orange Crush” in the REM song is actually believed to be refering to Agent Orange, a defoliant used to destroy the jungle foliage used as cover for troop movements.
As for Hiroshima and Nagasaki, most of the fathers of my childhood friends had been in the Japanese Prisoner of War Camps and, had the War with Japan continued and not been ended by those bombings, I suspect there would have been quite a few more of them who would never have returned home.
The two bombs were named as Little or Tall Boy and Fat Man. Those names were not “humourous” names written on the bombs by the military but code names given by the technicians and, if you look at the particular shape of each bomb the reason becomes quite obvious. Why did the technicians give them names, in case you think they were also comedians? Because the Manhattan Project was Top Secret and using the name “Atom Bombs” might just have given a slight hint about what they were working on.
I wish I could share the amusement of the notion that education should be ditched in favour of building more bombs.
As you were saying, it’s all about T-shirts.
Black humour has always been around. The only ones who get upset by it are those who want to use their complaints as a stick to beat people they disagree with.
The complaints are not about the humour or the contents but are simply a clandestine method of attacking those behind it.
The intention behind the thread is obvious to people who have been round the Org for a reasonable amount of time and that intent is now being shown for all to see by some of your recent posts.
Your examples are becoming wilder all the time and, as usual, all aimed in one direction and one direction only.
Napalm, Orange Crush? Yet another convenient Myth in the making.
I did qualify my remark by saying "If I recall correctly" before linking Napalm and the term Orange Crush. I accept that it is probably an Urban Myth. That does not alter the fact that the US deployed chemicals in Vietnam. Agent Orange was designed as a defoliant, does that make it more acceptable to have sprayed several million gallons of it in Vietnam?
Agent Orange was a highly toxic substance and has been linked to health problems of both the troops who were spraying it and the people of Vietnam who were exposed to it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3798581.stm
You accuse me of having a one-way agenda. Where is your balanced analysis? If another country sprayed poisonous chemicals across the UK, would you accept that as fair play?
Melancholy Man
03-Oct-08, 19:37
Is that Orange Crush? I'd never listened to the lyrics!
I did qualify my remark by saying "If I recall correctly" before linking Napalm and the term Orange Crush.This allows a certain amount of wriggle room, but the tenor of your post pointed to believing the 'impression of truth' it presents. Furthermore, it wasn't even the correct representation of this impression! If Orange Crush did refer to a military tool, it was Agent Orange not napalm. They are nothing like each other.
I have seen dead and injured children, and was filled with horror for what they were: dead and injured children. I did not feel the desire to present their suffering as ghastly humour - a droppie o orange juice for e bairns - or triumph their anguish as a propaganda tool for just how beastly the Americans are (not that they'd been attacked by American forces): which, let's face it, is what the images of Kim Phuc has become, along with the dead of My Lai (although Hugh Thompson, Glenn Andreotta or Lawrence Colbourn ain't remembered as much).
Here's (http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2005/05/05/image693042x.jpg) an image of a dead child which ain't going to be used much. Why? Because the horrified human being holding her is Major Mark Bieger of the US Army. Screw you Michael Moore, screw your worthless soul. This is what your minutemen are doing.
And another one (http://www.defendamerica.mil/archive/2006-01/20060131pm1.html).
Here's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:OkinawaMarineOrphan.jpg) a pair of Leathernecks shielding an Okinawan child. I wonder if one is Old Marine. EDIT - checked their names, no. (Incidentally, did anyone catch the documentary on Channel Four about the Kamikaze a few months back? It interviewed a pair of Kamikaze veterans. I kid you not!)
Agent Orange was a highly toxic substance and has been linked to health problems of both the troops who were spraying it and the people of Vietnam who were exposed to it.Agent Orange was originally deployed as a, as it was thought, non-lethal method of stripping the foliage and disrupting Viet Cong passage. At this time, dioxins were routinely used in everyday situations back home. Bombs have been linked to life-problems with troops and the Vietnamese population, but it was Agent Orange which was withdrawn when the link became known.
(Seguing onto Iraq, Falluja II could have been resolved as the Russians attempted at Grozny or the Syrians managed at Hama: with carpet bombing and chemical weaponry. Yet, the USMC was sent in and saw some of the heaviest street fighting since WWII, with the deaths of 100 men.)
You accuse me of having a one-way agenda. Where is your balanced analysis? If another country sprayed poisonous chemicals across the UK, would you accept that as fair play?That's just the point. It wasn't the UK. So, what is your personal investment? Where is your sense of balance over the collectivization by the Viet Cong?
Seventy years ago, a country did rain death and destruction upon the UK. Thirty years ago another was prepared to do so many times fold. I will recount it, but nor will I harp on these decades later.
(DISCLAIMER - I opposed the Iraq War, and, had I been around in the 1960s, would have done so with Vietnam. It's just, I prefer Joan Baez.)
Aaldtimer
03-Oct-08, 20:08
MM..."Screw you Michael Moore, screw your worthless soul. This is what your minutemen are doing."...
could you explain this sentence for me?:confused
Melancholy Man
03-Oct-08, 20:24
MM..."Screw you Michael Moore, screw your worthless soul. This is what your minutemen are doing."...
could you explain this sentence for me?:confused
This was how he described the "Iraqi resistance". Just as, after 11/9, he asked why a Republican district wasn't attacked.
Aaldtimer
03-Oct-08, 20:53
Ah! Thank you . Get your drift now.:D
Melancholy Man
03-Oct-08, 21:22
Instead what normally happens is the team will instantly switch from civilian contact mode (talking to the locals, handing out candy and bottles of water) into combat mode. Typically without a spoken word.
I can see problems with this. Most humans have an almost-phobic fear of inflicting deadly violence on other humans. As I understand it, current USMC training involves bypassing recourse to the cerebral cortex, and getting men to fire literary without thinking.
Certainly this works on the battle-field, but what of the psychological after-effects.
I can see problems with this. Most humans have an almost-phobic fear of inflicting deadly violence on other humans. As I understand it, current USMC training involves bypassing recourse to the cerebral cortex, and getting men to fire literary without thinking.
Certainly this works on the battle-field, but what of the psychological after-effects.Or muscle memory kicking in when it's not supposed to.
northener
03-Oct-08, 22:22
..........
Without even a casual glance at the form book, I would be willing to bet that the latter names did NOT come from men in ANY danger of death. Unless sitting in a back room, drinking gallons of coffee and eating tons of doughnuts be deemed to be "very real danger of death"
Most of warfare consists of having drones willing to follow orders without fail. I doubt that many would be pondering gentle irony whilst being instructed to kill, of an evening.
I'd beg to differ on that score, Scorrie. The front line guys are always very good at black humour or irony. Living on the edge focuses the mind wonderfully.
Regarding drones - troops motivated by political, religious or nationalist ideals will wipe the floor with drones every single time.
I did qualify my remark by saying "If I recall correctly" before linking Napalm and the term Orange Crush. I accept that it is probably an Urban Myth. That does not alter the fact that the US deployed chemicals in Vietnam. Agent Orange was designed as a defoliant, does that make it more acceptable to have sprayed several million gallons of it in Vietnam?
Agent Orange was a highly toxic substance and has been linked to health problems of both the troops who were spraying it and the people of Vietnam who were exposed to it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3798581.stm
You accuse me of having a one-way agenda. Where is your balanced analysis? If another country sprayed poisonous chemicals across the UK, would you accept that as fair play? Are you saying Agent Orange was deliberately used as an anti-personnel weapon?
Have you bothered to find as much detail about the actions of the Russians in Afghanistan or Chechnya? Have you bothered to assess the actions of the Red Guards whilst busily waving Mao’s “Little Red Book” aka “Mao’s Mundane Mutterings”?
Strange that your only concerns about alleged inhumanity is when you can apply it to America. Your careful aversion of your eyes and studied blindness when it come to what you find inconvenient reminds me of those Nuremberg steadfastly claiming that they knew nothing about any of the atrocities committed by their supporters because they were too busy engaged in doing other things and had their attention ever so slightly distracted.
If you are looking for new converts to the cause you are definitely going to have to get some new material. Beating a dusty fifty year old drum to death impresses only those who have already decided it sounds liked it’s worth following.
Have you any idea what happened to Buster Crabb?
Scorrie is busily trying to whip up anti-American hysteria again and again and again, folks.
If you trawl round certain sites for long enough they eventually throw up a gimmick which can be used as a starter for dragging up how terrible America and the West are whilst the rest of the World is full of sweet, innocent angels suffering under their crushing heels.
When it comes to such matters the modern versions are complete rubbish, Radio Moscow in the 50s and 60s was far more interesting and their original comedy acts were far better than their modern copiers.
I remember their boasts about their T34 Tractor Production Lines and their wheat production which had exceeded all previous records. (Mainly because they had bought up all the excess wheat produced in America using fictitious Companies which led straight back to the KGB.
Now those were the days when propaganda really was worth listening to, mainly because they could be guaranteed not to keep regurgitating the same old jokes.
“Now is the time for all good men, oops sorry, persons, to come to the aid of the Party” and bring you own Vodka, we are running low on our anti-freeze supplies.
Hell, is this thread funny, it’s been the best joke for a long time. Sorry about the poor children in the school, we promise to do more damage if we raid any Theatres. And if you are a journalist, stay well away from any windows in high buildings they can be very dangerous to people who write terrible fibs about us especially when you complain about people having terrible accidents whilst gathering in Red Square.
Keep going scorrie, playing pass the horror story is quite enjoyable and certainly good for a laugh.
Anybody know if they are still printing the Little Red Book, mine went dog-eared and fell apart. I really miss it and my poster of Chairman Mao saying "Mao Tse Dung thou are the red sun of our hearts" or was hearts spelt slightly differently, I can't quite recall.
I believe in Tiananmen Square they still gather to sing "Tanks for the memory" but I haven't been there myself to check.
Oh, sorry, that was another nasty American Capitalist lie which never happened, wasn't it.
Melancholy Man
04-Oct-08, 00:00
Red Square in the dead of winter, a man is traipsing across with one shoe missing. Another calls to him, hey, Vasily, do you know you have lost one shoe?
On the contrary, replies the man, I have found one.
Or, the USSR was as free as the USA. Just as you could stand before the White House shouting, down with Reagan!, you could stand in front of the Kremlin shouting, down with Reagan!
When it comes to such matters the modern versions are complete rubbish, Radio Moscow in the 50s and 60s was far more interesting and their original comedy acts were far better than their modern copiers.I don't have the reference, but early Cold War propaganda films in the Soviet Union showing the "squalor" in Southern cities in America had to be shelved when audiences began asking why the impoverished Americans had bright white washing hanging on lines.
Your careful aversion of your eyes and studied blindness when it come to what you find inconvenient reminds me of those Nuremberg steadfastly claiming that they knew nothing about any of the atrocities committed by their supporters because they were too busy engaged in doing other things and had their attention ever so slightly distracted.
That said, those individuals were intimately involved in the supply and planning of these acts or supporting the departments and agencies which enacting them. This is a comments thread on the Internet.
Slightly fanciful to link the two.
oldmarine
04-Oct-08, 01:30
Here are some more weapons system names that I have aquaintence with:
Stone Ghost
Senior Trend
Senior Year
Classic Wizard
Follow Ruby
I won't speak for the other US services, but the US Marines highly prize those who are not drones. It is one reason why they are so effective in combat and largely feared by the enemies. The Marine Corps approach is to instill in every Marine, officer to bottom rung enlisted, the seeds of leadership, critical thinking and self-reliance.
This is because many many times in battle a small unit (4 man fire team, 16 man quad) will encounter the enemy and need to respond immediately. Sadly in Iraq and Afghanistan first contact often happens when the bad guys open up with warning on a group walking through the streets to help keep order and peace. This means that many times 2-4 brave Marines are injured or even killed before the squad knows what happened. The next few seconds determines who lives and who dies. Many times the ones getting hit are the Sergeant (I am a former Sergeant myself) or the Lieutenant.
If they were drones, they would be struck dumb and immobile, while some thug with a gun or RPG mowed them down. Instead what normally happens is the team will instantly switch from civilian contact mode (talking to the locals, handing out candy and bottles of water) into combat mode. Typically without a spoken word. Whomever is still able to fight will divide into returning fire, treating the wounded and getting the civilians out of the line of fire.
The people of Iraq and Afghanistan have seen this enough time to learn 2 lessons. 1) You can trust the Marines (In Iraq they call us "White Sleeves") and 2) Never fight them because they will kill you. You can shoot the leaders, and they still fight.
Sorry for the ramble. Just wanted to share the difference between the common notion of "drones" and what real Marines are like.
If you want to see a movie production that shows Marines in the closest thing I have seen to accurate, go watch Aliens (the first sequel). The fellow who plays Gunny Apone is an actual Marine and re-wrote all of their dialog.
Bruce H
Bruce H: Thanks for your post. You appear to know much about the US
arines.
Prob first & last post. Was looking for info on ancestors who left Bower in 1830s & stumbled across this site.
Old Marine & other millitary posts reminded of an incident in Vietnam when the world was young.
An American base, all spit & polish, had a sign over main entry giving name of unit & underneath the motto "SECOND TO NONE"
Further down the road was another base, not quite so regimental with a sign over entry reading "NONE". Beside gate was a smaller sign reading "3rd RAR"*
(Prob when Nero heard it he threw another dozen christians to the lions)
*Royal Australian Regiment
Welcomefamily
04-Oct-08, 07:47
I wish I could share the amusement of the notion that education should be ditched in favour of building more bombs. The inference is that, people who can afford to educate their kids can do so, while poor people should not have government money wasted on educating THEIR offspring. More Arabs can be bombed and more Oil taken, if money is spent on "Defence" instead.
Hilarious!!
Its still amusing, however like wise I would not agree with the second T shirt as I would put Education far before Bombs, how ever the point of the first T shirt does hit the nail on the head fairly well. Green is such an offensive colour.
Are you saying Agent Orange was deliberately used as an anti-personnel weapon?
Scorrie is busily trying to whip up anti-American hysteria again and again and again, folks.
Only an imbecile could have thought that dropping highly toxic chemicals in millions of gallons would not have had an effect on both the soil and the people of the area. Use of chemicals in war is supposed to be forbidden. That is my point, pure and simple.
If you have a look through my 2000 odd posts, you will find little reference to Anti-American sentiment. Your statement about hysteria, again and again and again, is utter cobblers.
As always, you avoid answering my question about whether what happened in Vietnam is wrong, instead, the old "Ooh, look, OTHER countries did it too!!" mantra spews forth.
All you are trying to do here is attack me personally, rather than actually pay one shred of attention to points raised. Rant away old bean, people like you lose their potential impact as soon as they start mocking the other side in an attempt to score some points. People either know who I am, or can make their minds up for themselves. They don't need some mouthpiece shouting the odds about what is allegedly happening.
I'd beg to differ on that score, Scorrie. The front line guys are always very good at black humour or irony. Living on the edge focuses the mind wonderfully.
Regarding drones - troops motivated by political, religious or nationalist ideals will wipe the floor with drones every single time.
I think several have misinterpreted my use of the word "drones" to describe troops. I have seen a few documentaries about soldiers and their training. I recall one where an instructing officer told trainees "We didn't lose the war in Vietnam, we COULD have won that SUCKER" in a manner that was akin to referring to a football match. Watching Navy Seals having it drummed into them to follow orders and put the unit before self made it clear to me that the guys are there to do purely what they are told. This is obviously essential in warfare, but it leaves the soldiers with no room to actually look at the bigger picture and whether what they are doing is TRULY justified and morally acceptable. The men are doing a job, I admire their courage, but I question whether they ever get truly used to killing people as part of their work? Post traumatic stress disorder and other mental horrors would suggest that some veterans never fully conquer their "demons"
That is why I refer to troops as drones. A soldier who is thinking about the consequences of his actions is not likely to make for a reliable killer in the heat of battle. It is surely men who obey unflinchingly, that make the best combatants?
No disrespect to men who go to battle, I hope they can get on with their lives afterwards. I simply don't find it natural to try to kill someone who you do not know, and who may never have done anything bad in their life. After all, they are simply in the same position, ordered by others to try to eliminate the "enemy"
Melancholy Man
05-Oct-08, 15:55
Only an imbecile {...}
Would these be the same imbeciles who were encouraging DDT parties back home? Scientific knowledge changes, and when the effects of dioxins became known, Agent Orange was withdrawn.
As I said before, the alternative was dropping ordnance. Agent Orange was used because it was assumed to be a non-lethal method of removing the canopy and exposing the Viet Cong routes. It was found to have side-effects, and was withdrawn.
{...} could have thought {...}
Lesson 1 in discussing historical events, avoid making assumptions about the motives of actors. Without corroboratory evidence you run the risk of becoming a 'situationist' and setting up whopping great big straw-men. It's the difference between Francis Pryor and Bettany Hughes.
{...} that dropping highly toxic chemicals in millions of gallons {...}
Twenty millions gallons were indeed sprayed across 10% of Vietnam. That is, about 30,000 miles ^ 2. Any farmers here who can confirm how this compares to pesticide spraying in Western countries of the same period?
{...} would not have had an effect on both the soil and the people of the area.
Direct exposure to dioxins is a known carcinogen. This happened infrequently during Vietnam. In fact, it was US soldiers most likely to be so affected.
Purported research linking continuing birth defects is largely in Vietnamese and the data have not been released for review. What is known is that it involves extrapolating figures across the country from health problems in the affected zones, which are the same as the general population.
Use of chemicals in war is supposed to be forbidden.
What do you base that on? Not that it's relevant, as Agent Orange is not classed as a chemical weapon.
Clearly you have a good heart Scorrie, but let me help shine some light on a few things from a military perspective.
A soldier who is thinking about the consequences of his actions is not likely to make for a reliable killer in the heat of battle. It is surely men who obey unflinchingly, that make the best combatants?
When your best friend is a bloody mess beside you, you don't need anyone to encourage you to take action. In military terms it would be impossible for leaders of any unit to give such detailed orders that they could be unflinchingly obeyed by every member.
You don't normally have orders being given to troops to go out and kill people. In fact (at least the US military) the emphasis is more on getting people to stop shooting at us, or trying to build bombs that kill more Iraqis than GIs.
Even in the case of Al Queda folks, if we know where they are the first choice is always to capture them in as few pieces as possible. Many cases they end up dead because history has shown us that unless we can surprise them with a huge encircling force, they will take hostages, or suicide out with as many civilians as possible.
You are correct that many people who have been to war are forever scarred by the experience, but this is no different today than the recurring nightmares my father had over his combat in WW2. War is supposed to be awful, it helps us understand why it is so important to avoid it. In many cases the use of precision weapons has made it less of a nightmare to engage in combat, and sadly perhaps a bit more acceptable.
Everyone I served with knew the risks when they signed up, and were ready to do what was needed when the time came if it came. We more or less knew that could come with a heavy price.
What I find hurts the military folks the most is the bitter hate they receive from a small but very vocal fraction of the population, who blame them for doing a dirty and unpleasant job. Living in a military town, we do actually put forth quite a bit of effort to create an environment that celebrates these brave people and discourages radical anti-war people from being so brutal.
Bruce H
not to be tangled up in the thing this post has become, but can i say that as an american citizen that i am offended by the racist way that i have percived scorries orig. comments.
he may not have meant it that way but that is the way it came across to me.
there is black humor everywhere, but that does not mean that i a simple american takes part in it. and the KKK pictures i find that deeply humuliating and deginerating. it is sadly a horrible part of the southern life, that a minority live strongly by today.
there is such hatred and bias attached to that it is just stupid to bring it to light, as anyone that has a close personal knowlege of it will be horrified.
america is not perfect, there are good people and their are bad people.
but its the exact same here and everywhere else on this planet.
i as an outsider could start slagging off wick by going on about druggies and tinks. about the absolute lack of moral values, how children run wild like rabbid animals. ive seen tshirts worm with pride that state Dirty Weeker which i think from what ive been told was orig an insult?. its not a nice thing to do to belittle another culture as a whole. i felt as if you are taking a few things and painting an entire people with the same brush.
if i have taken it out of context then im sorry, but that is just how i read the comments.
Hello Brandy
Sorry if what Scorrie brought up was offensive to you. As a yank and a former drone (!) I have to admit that I did not take offense at all. A lot of folks across the world have strange perceptions of the USA, in part because we create them.
If you had not lived in the US for a while, you have little to go on save our media, which over the past 20 years has created an increasingly twisted "cartoon version" of many aspects of American life. For example I get a huge laugh talking to my cousin's children about life in America, as they ask me things like "Is Chicago run by gangs?", and "What happened to everyone after the nuclear bomb went off in LA?" (reference to the thriller show 24). There seems to be a common belief that most of America is a hybrid between the spoiled rich kids of 90210 and the brutal crime pit of CSI.
Sadly for the Scots it is no better. If you were to ask the average American about Scotland and Scottish people it would be a cartoon like parody (please don't take offense good Scottish folk!) of what Scotland is really like.
So please go easy on folks who don't yet have the depth of knowledge or appreciation for the wacky multi-faceted wonder box that is the USA. I don't think they mean any harm at all.
Bruce H
*grins* reading it now it does sound really harsh, but reading some of the posts just really got my dander up. i hate generalization, and the KKK pics really do bug me, i can still remember seeing crosses burned on the lawn of a girl i went to school with just a couple streets over from me, because her mum (white) had a black boyfriend.
im only 31 years old and i was about 12 when that happened. so not so very long ago.
its scary how hate can grow so fast and out of nothing more than a dif. in skin color and the way one person thinks dif. from another. i could care less what race, color, creed, faith or team someone was. as long as they are good decent folks that is all that matters at the end of the day.
i want to be friends with the bloke that picks up the little old ladies bags of shopping she dropped even though he has blue hair tats and piercings in every orifice. and not the middle class idiot that rushed past her and knocked them out of her arms in the first place with out even a by your leave.
just because we are look or seem dif. dosent mean anything.
its who we are underneath that matters, if you know what i mean!
Would these be the same imbeciles who were encouraging DDT parties back home? Scientific knowledge changes, and when the effects of dioxins became known, Agent Orange was withdrawn.
As I said before, the alternative was dropping ordnance. Agent Orange was used because it was assumed to be a non-lethal method of removing the canopy and exposing the Viet Cong routes. It was found to have side-effects, and was withdrawn.
Lesson 1 in discussing historical events, avoid making assumptions about the motives of actors. Without corroboratory evidence you run the risk of becoming a 'situationist' and setting up whopping great big straw-men. It's the difference between Francis Pryor and Bettany Hughes.
Twenty millions gallons were indeed sprayed across 10% of Vietnam. That is, about 30,000 miles ^ 2. Any farmers here who can confirm how this compares to pesticide spraying in Western countries of the same period?
Direct exposure to dioxins is a known carcinogen. This happened infrequently during Vietnam. In fact, it was US soldiers most likely to be so affected.
Purported research linking continuing birth defects is largely in Vietnamese and the data have not been released for review. What is known is that it involves extrapolating figures across the country from health problems in the affected zones, which are the same as the general population.
What do you base that on? Not that it's relevant, as Agent Orange is not classed as a chemical weapon.
Scientific Knowledge does indeed change, that is why it is probably unwise to to go spraying millions of gallons of chemicals on a country. Agent Orange IS a chemical. It may not be classed as a "Chemical Weapon" but, as you say, even some American Troops suffered adverse effects from the exposure to the substance. It is your choice whether to accept and excuse the use of this "Weedkiller", it is also your choice to believe that Napalm and Agent Orange are NOT Chemical Weapons because someone has defined them as being something else, such as an "incendiary device" or a "defoliant". I do suspect, however, that if your face was dripping with Napalm, you might indeed think to yourself that it was a acting in the manner of a Chemical Weapon. Agent Orange was used for ten years, I think that needs pointing out less some people get the idea that it was used sparingly and simply withdrawn when it was found out that there were side-effects. By the way, dying is a pretty serious side-effect!!
As far as Chemical Weapon legality goes, you can check this out:-
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/3f233cb0f0c580f8c125641f002d42a8?OpenDocument
I had been led to believe it was illegal under the terms of the Geneva Convention. If it is, in fact, legal, let me apologise and send out a call for Great Britain and The USA to similarly apologise to Iraq for invading under, at least partly, false pretences.
Melancholy Man
05-Oct-08, 23:19
I prefer to avoid using racist to describe criticism of America until absolutely necessary. I have had the misfortune to meet only one or two individuals whom I can describe as absolute filth, and Scorrie is not one.
"What happened to everyone after the nuclear bomb went off in LA?" (reference to the thriller show 24).
I thought it was Sledge Hammer!.
There seems to be a common belief that most of America is a hybrid between the spoiled rich kids of 90210 and the brutal crime pit of CSI.
Everyone in CSI is just too beautiful to be brutal. Life in LA is, however, exactly like The Shield. It's a fact.
Regarding drones - troops motivated by political, religious or nationalist ideals will wipe the floor with drones every single time.
Just another thought on this northerner, how does a religiously motivated soldier who is a Christian manage to square the circle of having to break the Commandment "Thou shalt not kill"?
Just another thought on this northerner, how does a religiously motivated soldier who is a Christian manage to square the circle of having to break the Commandment "Thou shalt not kill"?
The British Army usually get over this one by hiring the Gurkha's, they are not Christians :confused
not to be tangled up in the thing this post has become, but can i say that as an american citizen that i am offended by the racist way that i have percived scorries orig. comments.
he may not have meant it that way but that is the way it came across to me.
there is black humor everywhere, but that does not mean that i a simple american takes part in it. and the KKK pictures i find that deeply humuliating and deginerating. it is sadly a horrible part of the southern life, that a minority live strongly by today.
there is such hatred and bias attached to that it is just stupid to bring it to light, as anyone that has a close personal knowlege of it will be horrified.
america is not perfect, there are good people and their are bad people.
but its the exact same here and everywhere else on this planet.
i as an outsider could start slagging off wick by going on about druggies and tinks. about the absolute lack of moral values, how children run wild like rabbid animals. ive seen tshirts worm with pride that state Dirty Weeker which i think from what ive been told was orig an insult?. its not a nice thing to do to belittle another culture as a whole. i felt as if you are taking a few things and painting an entire people with the same brush.
if i have taken it out of context then im sorry, but that is just how i read the comments.
I merely presented some examples from an AMERICAN website and asked whether they were funny or xenophobic. Let me tell you, that site had Right-Wing Americans making a mockery of their fellow citizens for being more Liberal and Peace loving than themselves. There were T-shirts suggesting that Liberals should be clubbed!! That is WAY more than anything I was suggesting. Most people here have disagreed with my opinion but they HAVE, in the main, seen my comments for what they are. I do not post very much concerning politics and only came across the original site while looking for NFL Jerseys. I selected the USA for discussion because a) It was the site I came across and b) I felt some of the merchandise was not only racist in nature but insulting to some American people as well. I think that most people would agree that American culture is looked at as an example that other countries aspire to. If that same country is filled with people who not only despise some foreign countries, but also some of their own people, it does not make for a very hopeful World vision.
I would say you need to think about having a thicker skin and giving people the benefit of any doubt. I am only here to offer up points for discussion and let other people give their opinion in reply. I have traded Teddy Bears with hundreds of people in the USA and had many friends I kept in touch with regularly until the market for the bears collapsed. It is not American PEOPLE I was referring to, rather attitudes and actions instead.
Melancholy Man
05-Oct-08, 23:47
Scientific Knowledge does indeed change, that is why it is probably unwise to to go spraying millions of gallons of chemicals on a country.Thus, even though you concede that Agent Orange was thought non-harmful to humans and was, subsequently, used rather than bombs which would definitely have killed, the American military should be held accountable for knowledge decades down the line.
Try not to cross any zebra crossings with this attempt to prove black is white.
And, you can keep talking about "millions of gallons" as if it carries a weight of its own, but it is secondary to the area sprayed and respective quantities of pesticides used elsewhere in the world at the time. Not to mention the complete lack of reproducable data on its causing birth defects.
Michael Gough's "Agent Orange: the Facts" is a good place to start.
Agent Orange IS a chemical.Blimey! You must have asbestos cheeks to come out with this guff! Explosives work by chemical reactions, but they are not chemical weapons! By making appeals to blesséd international law left, right and centre, you set yourself up for a major prat-fall when your reading is shown to be fallacious.
As has just happened.
As far as Chemical Weapon legality goes, you can check this out:-Not relevant to a discussion about Agent Orange.
If it is, in fact, legal, let me apologise and send out a call for Great Britain and The USA to similarly apologise to Iraq for invading under, at least partly, false pretences.Sorry, what is the relevance to chemical weapons here? (Except, the obvious, that Saddam Hussein had been using them with abandon. And (http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/07/africa/web-0407-iraq%7E23092.php) he was not (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/02/20/iraq.main/index.html) the only one (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/03/17/iraq.main/index.html).
Add to that the matter of the multi-national aspect of the Coaltion, and that your asertion that the invasion was illegal I am, confident in saying, going to be almost exactly wrong.
Just another thought on this northerner, how does a religiously motivated soldier who is a Christian manage to square the circle of having to break the Commandment "Thou shalt not kill"?
Easily. This does not place a blanket ban on taking human life.
Plus, if you cannot tell the difference between the scumbags letting off bombs in market-places or executing teenage girls (http://danhardie.wordpress.com/2007/08/20/two-teenaged-quislings/) and Western-trained soldiers in combat situations, it is your moral compass which needs reset. The same as the posture which places the invasion of Iraq further up the condemnation scale than the Anfal Campaign.
Thus, even though you concede that Agent Orange was thought non-harmful to humans and was, subsequently, used rather than bombs which would definitely have killed, the American military should be held accountable for knowledge decades down the line.
Try not to cross any zebra crossings with this attempt to prove black is white.
And, you can keep talking about "millions of gallons" as if it carries a weight of its own, but it is secondary to the area sprayed and respective quantities of pesticides used elsewhere in the world at the time. Not to mention the complete lack of reproducable data on its causing birth defects.
Michael Gough's "Agent Orange: the Facts" is a good place to start.
Blimey! You must have asbestos cheeks to come out with this guff! Explosives work by chemical reactions, but they are not chemical weapons! By making appeals to blesséd international law left, right and centre, you set yourself up for a major prat-fall when your reading is shown to be fallacious.
As has just happened.
Not relevant to a discussion about Agent Orange.
Sorry, what is the relevance to chemical weapons here? (Except, the obvious, that Saddam Hussein had been using them with abandon. And (http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/07/africa/web-0407-iraq%7E23092.php) he was not (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/02/20/iraq.main/index.html) the only one (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/03/17/iraq.main/index.html).
Add to that the matter of the multi-national aspect of the Coaltion, and that your asertion that the invasion was illegal I am, confident in saying, going to be almost exactly wrong.
Easily. This does not place a blanket ban on taking human life.
Plus, if you cannot tell the difference between the scumbags letting off bombs in market-places or executing teenage girls (http://danhardie.wordpress.com/2007/08/20/two-teenaged-quislings/) and Western-trained soldiers in combat situations, it is your moral compass which needs reset. The same as the posture which places the invasion of Iraq further up the condemnation scale than the Anfal Campaign.
There is no "Condemnation Scale", I don't believe in excusing certain actions because there is deemed to be worse happening somewhere else. That is my belief, period.
You can quote as many sites and use as much jargon as you wish but I suspect you are alienating many with your style. I have no wish to descend into Google Tennis here, so I leave the floor open while I withdraw before I offend anyone else. Cheers for your input though, it was quality for the most part and better than those who simply attack without saying anything real.
Melancholy Man
06-Oct-08, 00:26
You can quote as many sites and use as much jargon as you wish but I suspect you are alienating many with your style.I am providing verifiable references which, if anyone disagrees, allows an opportunity for reply. When discussing any historical or political event, this is vital, don't you think?
I have no wish to descend into Google Tennis here,
Although I have used Google to locate the URLs, I knew all beforehand. Dan Hardie, for instance, is a lovely bloke. I have also, believe it or not, read excerpts from Michael Gough's book.
so I leave the floor open while I withdraw before I offend anyone else.
The taking of offensive is, ultimately, theirs. I've made clear my position on such behaviour.
There is no "Condemnation Scale", I don't believe in excusing certain actions because there is deemed to be worse happening somewhere else.
The worse was/is not happening somewhere else. It was happening in under the Maoists in Vietnam and Cambodia. It is happening in Iraq under A-Q in Iraq or sectarian death squads.
But it's only American actions which meet with your specific condemnation, to the extent of fabricating the story behind Agent Orange. Those idiots marching under North Vietnam flags were marching for it. John Pilger, for instance, spent years cheering them on, and then found the first helicopter out of Saigon.
That is my belief, period.
Precisely the same suspension of moral sense which allowed the Bosnian War to chunter on, killing tens of thousands of Bosniaks, and would have allowed Milosevic another roll of the dice in Kosova. I am not seeking to exonerate the invasion of Iraq (especially as, pragmatically, I opposed it), but nor am I loosing sight of the matter of, after everything which has happened since the war ended, a majority of Iraqis *still* agree with the ousting of Saddam Hussein.
Issuing moral fiats like this is much easier when our society has never faced anything remotely comparable to the dementedness of A-Q in Iraq.
Cheers for your input though, it was quality for the most part and better than those who simply attack without saying anything real.Appreciated. Now, my proprioception is doing funny things after the naratriptan. Time for bed.
Ah, I have just realised the reason behind the thread. It is all about the how dare anybody take the mickey out of people who slavishly follow Liberal, i.e. Left Wing Dogma.
I can attack your beliefs in any way I want but don't anybody dare mock my beliefs.
It seems to me that such attitudes are no different to tub thumping religious zealots who brook no belief other than their own.
Ah well, I missed the point, I hadn't realised that we were intended to horrified because of one, totally insignificant site with a few trivial stickers and T-shirts.
Never mind, anybody know where I can get one that says, "Che lives" or was that “Elvis lives”, I never could tell which was the sillier claim? I do know which one gave more people pleasure and who, eventually had more effect on the World.
But that's a different story altogether when it comes to trying to stir up artificial disgust over absolutely nothing.
Remember folks, laughing can lead to you being placed in the stocks. Such frivolity must be banished forthwith. Do we still issue death threats here for people who mock the wrong thing or did we stop doing that when we stopped burning people at the stake in our uncivilised past?
There is no right or wrong answer to that question but it is something to think about.
puts on her little hillbilly hat.. im ah democrat yup... darn thoses republicans for ruining the world!
Melancholy Man
06-Oct-08, 12:57
I really don't think it's fair to blame Republican politics per se for what's happened the past seven years, or even suggest that what has happened has ruined the world. It was in response to mass-murder on American soil, and what followed was comparatively restrained by historical and contemporary standards. More importantly, it resulted the removals of two loathsome state governments which were also welcomed by both the countries' populations. And, in Camp Litterbug, Brian Haw continues his 'protest' which began before 11/9 to call for an end to sanctions. Which have finished.
The idea that it has been a disaster hails from precisely the same source which inspired much of this thread: that exercise of American power, in itself, is to be opposed. That the forces which it fought/opposed last century - Nazism, Imperial Japan under the Showa, Communism, violent Jihad - killed and subjugated many times more *as* *part* *of* *their* *ideologies* makes it all the more disreputable. Abhorent though Apartheid was, more died under the Cuban/Soviet led wars in Angola and Mozambique.
Even though I would have opposed the Vietnam War, I would not have supported or ignored the collectivization of the rural classes (of course Marxists hate the peasantry) or Pol Pot. If I would have welcomed the demise of the Somoza clicque it does not follow I would have supported the Sandinista take-over.
As for Che t-shirts, eat (http://burn,%20Commies,%20burn)this (http://bp2.blogger.com/_vH5f59Og-Sc/Rw-lk2hqzBI/AAAAAAAABZI/zU8m6-bxAb8/s400/GOEMoonbats054.jpg), Commies!
I have followed the Redskins for 34 years, I would rather watch them than Man City any day. As you say, live and let live.
By the way, are Man City now under Arab ownership? That would be a bit ironic ;)
(Light touchpaper and stand well back!!!)
Have to disagree as I am a City supporter(for my sins) ;)
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