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DrSzin
09-Jan-06, 23:31
Did anyone else see Richard Dawkins' (http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/WorldOfDawkins-archive/index.shtml) Root of All Evil? on Channel 4 tonight? I only saw the last twenty minutes, but what I saw was interesting.

Madeleine Bunting described it (http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2763,1681234,00.html) as an intellectually lazy polemic not worthy of a great scientist.

Well, perhaps she has a point, but it was surely a personal point of view rather than an academic presentation. Whatever his intention, Dawkins had me in stitches on several occasions. I'm not as fundamentally atheist as he is, nor am I so anti-religion, but I sure enjoyed it.

I dare say some of our more religious members may have found it somewhat less enjoyable.

Comments anyone?

Rheghead
09-Jan-06, 23:37
I did and I agree wholeheartedly with him.

lassieinfife
09-Jan-06, 23:41
I did and I agree wholeheartedly with him.


I watched it and enjoyed it, agreed with plenty of it ................ lots there to make you think,should be compulsary watching

jjc
10-Jan-06, 00:18
I'm gutted. I'd been meaning to watch it all week and then clean forgot. :( Hopefully it will be repeated soon.

Gleber2
10-Jan-06, 00:50
I'm gutted. I'd been meaning to watch it all week and then clean forgot. :( Hopefully it will be repeated soon.

Does this mean your fallible? I'm shocked. Actually I missed it too.Great pity

JAWS
10-Jan-06, 00:52
Completely forgot about it. Does anybody know if it's on again?

I've just had a quick glance at Madeleine Bunting's comments. I gave up at the point at which she has decided that Strictly Come Dancing has filed the gap left by Religion and the blame lies with Atheist-Humanism.
At that point she reminds me of the person on Radio a few weeks back who was appalled by "Porridge" because it did not reflect the reality of Prison life in the 1970s.
"Hello, wake up! It's not meant to be a Documentary."

Any organisation which cannot stand a little ridicule and having people poke fun at it has serious problems because it must have very little faith (not a pun) in it's own foundations.
The more hysterical the response, the shakier the Foundations.

I have also had a quick look at one of Madeleine Bunting's lectures. From the part of the lecture I read, I take it that she sees the programme as yet another example of the conspiracy by the Media to rubbish Religious Beliefs.
People who take themselves too seriously are not to be trusted in their objectivity. "Methinks she doth protest too much!"

brandy
10-Jan-06, 01:01
i didnt watch it but didnt know it was on either.. will watch teh next one though!
read the article and has a look at the web page.
the article makes him sound like a complete idiot.. who is shouting my way is right
and you should listen and obey me.
again from the article it looks as if he has a God complex himself.
the section that talked about children .. says exactly what i thought about raising my children *wg* they have to know about something before they can make a choice about it!

i do have to admit i have that distaste when a program is on like that or a subject like this comes up because i dont want to hear it.. but i make myself listen and at the end of the day feel better for it.
because i have listened and took in the argument and can gloat silently (yes i know i shouldnt but i do) Ha! i have listened to your rubbish and my faith is still strong *winks* ( that is a joke by the way!)
well not the my faith is still strong.. but the rubbish part.. i dont agree with it but if it makes him happy let him be!
just as long as he leaves me alone..
;) ill keep him in my prayers though!
night all!

Rheghead
10-Jan-06, 01:05
i didnt watch it but didnt know it was on either.. will watch teh next one though!
read the article and has a look at the web page.
the article makes him sound like a complete idiot.. who is shouting my way is right
and you should listen and obey me.
again from the article it looks as if he has a God complex himself.
the section that talked about children .. says exactly what i thought about raising my children *wg* they have to know about something before they can make a choice about it!

i do have to admit i have that distaste when a program is on like that or a subject like this comes up because i dont want to hear it.. but i make myself listen and at the end of the day feel better for it.
because i have listened and took in the argument and can gloat silently (yes i know i shouldnt but i do) Ha! i have listened to your rubbish and my faith is still strong *winks* ( that is a joke by the way!)
well not the my faith is still strong.. but the rubbish part.. i dont agree with it but if it makes him happy let him be!
just as long as he leaves me alone..
;) ill keep him in my prayers though!
night all!

When you actually engage traction to what Dawkins says instead of spouting anti-intellectual bunkum then you will realise the futility of Faith. I think your arrogance has proved his point...

DrSzin
10-Jan-06, 01:07
I'm gutted. I'd been meaning to watch it all week and then clean forgot. :( Hopefully it will be repeated soon.Yeah, me too. But at least I caught the last 20 minutes, and I'll try to beg, steal or borrow a recording of the whole programme.

Richard Dawkins is an interesting chap. He came up here to work with one of my colleagues for a few days in 1988 (I think), and I spent ages one day trying to explain something to him. Unfortunately, I can't remember what on earth it was I was trying to explain, but I eventually gave up and dismissed him as a naive mathematical-illiterate. I dare say it was my fault, and I was simply using the wrong language.

BTW I was away much of last week and I'm just catching up with the forum. I hadn't realised that Dawkins' series had been brought up in the "insane" thread.

connieb19
10-Jan-06, 01:14
Did anybody hear his interview with Jeremy Vines on radio 2 the other day?

Gleber2
10-Jan-06, 01:15
I don't mind the beliefs of the faithful as long as they don't preach at me and try to convert me. The early Christian missionaries had it right.'Our God is a God of peace and if you don't believe us we will put you on the stake and you will burn.' I have never had a non-believer preach at me the way so many Christians do. Yes,I see all religion as evil and that includes those who preach atheism at me. Every man should be his own Guru!!!.

brandy
10-Jan-06, 01:18
who was it that said God is within us all.. i really like that saying.. :)

DrSzin
10-Jan-06, 01:26
I've just had a quick glance at Madeleine Bunting's comments. I gave up at the point at which she has decided that Strictly Come Dancing has filed the gap left by Religion and the blame lies with Atheist-Humanism.
I did that too, but I forced myself to go back and read it carefully several times. The Strictly Come Dancing analogy is gratuitously silly, as is the title of her article and her comments on crystals and ley lines, but she makes some reasonable points about Hitler and Rwanda. Having said that, I think she too is guilty of shooting down straw men (eg sexual desire).

DrSzin
10-Jan-06, 01:38
i didnt watch it but didnt know it was on either.. will watch teh next one though!
read the article and has a look at the web page.
the article makes him sound like a complete idiot.. who is shouting my way is right
and you should listen and obey me.
again from the article it looks as if he has a God complex himself. I disagree with everything you say. :)

It doesn't make him look like a complete idiot. It is simply a disagreement between two very intelligent people with rather different views. I have enormous respect for both Richard Dawkins and Madeleine Bunting. Indeed the latter is the only religious affairs correspondent I ever read. She's intelligent, thoughtful, objective, and (almost) always gives everyone a fair hearing. She hasn't a clue about science but she isn't a scientist so I don't hold that against her.

Dawkins, on the other hand, might be described as a fundamentalist atheist, and I love the forthright way he states his opinions. He knows what he's talking about and he knows exactly what he's doing in pushing his views in the way he does.

The two of them are made for each other. ;)

brandy
10-Jan-06, 01:45
*laughs* just taking what i read from the article..
i have to admit i dont know anything about him!
just the names of the programs and when they are on..
so will reserve judgment and recant my previous remark until i watch the next show.
seriously though.. i do want to let you guys know.. i have absolutly nothing against atheists.. in fact some of the people i love most in this world are atheists.. ie my brothers and god brothers..
however does not mean that i agree with them and we have some major major rows!
but i love them no matter what their faith.. or lack of.. :)
but i will watch the next show and then wait to give my opinion on the guy..
i honestly belive to each their own but do not like to see people shouting abuse to others on how they belive be it atheist or televangelists!
really hate them.. (televangilists)i swear if i belived in hell.. i think there would be a special place for them *Winks*

gleeber
10-Jan-06, 08:25
I saw the prgramme and what I saw was a scientist who was an atheist explaining why science cannot be ignored when we look for inner and outer realities. He never once said he was right in fact he said he (and science) still had lots to learn.
Compare that to the Scary Christian evangalist who talks to President Bush on a regular basis or the ex-Jew who has now found salvation in Islam. They know for sure that Dawkins (and DrSzin) are damned to an eternal hell but they shout arrogance when Dawkins challenges them.
The fallback from the religious when their faith is challenged is always the other persons arrogance.
Thats one of the problems with science. Its so darn right sometometimes, and when its not grown men and women can discuss their differences, without resorting to killing one another, until they agree on something new about the nature of the world or ourselves.

golach
10-Jan-06, 10:36
Well michty me DrSzin, you have stirred up the Caithness Holy Willies once again, I have never seen or heard so much pulpit thumping for a long time.
What is it with you lot up there? Is it the dark dreich days of winter or are you all suffering from SAD?
No wonder poor old Bishop Adam of Halkirk was roasted, you lot are zealots up there.
What difference is anyones religion colour or creed, live and let live I say.

Whitewater
10-Jan-06, 12:52
Well michty me DrSzin, you have stirred up the Caithness Holy Willies once again, I have never seen or heard so much pulpit thumping for a long time.
What is it with you lot up there? Is it the dark dreich days of winter or are you all suffering from SAD?
No wonder poor old Bishop Adam of Halkirk was roasted, you lot are zealots up there.
What difference is anyones religion colour or creed, live and let live I say.

I agree with you golach. Perhaps the should all read Dan Browns 'Angels and Demons' and form their own opinion.

DrSzin
10-Jan-06, 12:58
They know for sure that Dawkins (and DrSzin) are damned to an eternal hell [...]Aye, and the 3 of us can discuss where we all went wrong. I dare say our new chum Gleber2 will be joining us. Nice to have you on board Gleber2. :)


Thats one of the problems with science. Its so darn right sometometimes, and when its not grown men and women can discuss their differences, without resorting to killing one another, until they agree on something new about the nature of the world or ourselves. Boring innit?

I like listening to Dawkins because he just says what he thinks. There's no bull, and no beating around the bush. To claim that religion is the root of all evil seems absurd to me, but it's fun to see where it takes us.


Well michty me DrSzin, you have stirred up the Caithness Holy Willies once again, I have never seen or heard so much pulpit thumping for a long time.Holy Willies? What Holy Willies? Only Brandy has voiced explicit disagreement with the views of St Richard, and she did it with some humour.

Hi connieb19, did you hear St Richard and Jeremy Vine? If so, could you tell us what happened and what you thought about it? All I could find on the web was this (http://www.cunningtitle.co.uk/?p=42). Wow, I see you've posted 232 times in the 10 days since you joined! And I thought I was an addict! :eek:

Whitewater, what does Angels and Demons have to do with this? No, I haven't read it.

Saveman
10-Jan-06, 13:44
I didn't see it but it sounds hilarious.
You've got see his point, in most of the trouble spots in the world, what’s slap bang at the centre of the problem? Religion.

As Mr. De Burgh once commented, "There's a quiet revolution going on..."

He's no one trick pony that De Burgh one! :D

Gleber2
10-Jan-06, 13:56
I don't have a strong faith in Science and I have an agnostic faith in religion but I have a strong faith in Mother Nature who has her back against the wall. What I do believe is that I have to survive at all costs.This, I believe is our prime directive.Both religion and science are a threat to our survival in so many ways and,with the potential for destruction supplied by Science to both sides in a potential Holy War, the threat has never been greater.That which is threatening my survival and the survival of our planet must be inherenly evil.

Saveman
10-Jan-06, 14:00
<snip>What I do believe is that I have to survive at all costs.<snip>

At all costs?

JAWS
10-Jan-06, 14:05
If Heaven is as nice as they say it is then I don't want to go there.
I'd feel like crocodile with it's mouth taped up.

(OK, who said, "That's a good idea."? Own up!)

connieb19
10-Jan-06, 15:36
Aye, and the 3 of us can discuss where we all went wrong. I dare say our new chum Gleber2 will be joining us. Nice to have you on board Gleber2. :)

Boring innit?

I like listening to Dawkins because he just says what he thinks. There's no bull, and no beating around the bush. To claim that religion is the root of all evil seems absurd to me, but it's fun to see where it takes us.

Holy Willies? What Holy Willies? Only Brandy has voiced explicit disagreement with the views of St Richard, and she did it with some humour.

Hi connieb19, did you hear St Richard and Jeremy Vine? If so, could you tell us what happened and what you thought about it? All I could find on the web was this (http://www.cunningtitle.co.uk/?p=42). Wow, I see you've posted 232 times in the 10 days since you joined! And I thought I was an addict! :eek:

Whitewater, what does Angels and Demons have to do with this? No, I haven't read it.Yes I heard the interview...or well what was supposed to be an interview!! Jeremy vines didn't give Dawkins a chance really. His first qustion to Dawkins was "So religion is the root of ALL avil?" to which Dawkins said "well, not all". Vines replied "so the title of the programme should be Religion is the root of SOME evil". This went on for about ten minutes, and the programme itself wasn't really discussed, just the title but Dawkins said that he stood by everything that was in the programme except the title. I thought it wasn't very fair really that he did'nt get to spend the time speaking about the programme!!
I thought, I must remember to watch that...but I fell asleep after about 15 minutes but I did see those thousands and thousands of people going to try and be healed and have to say I agree with dawkins!!

angela5
10-Jan-06, 15:46
Yes I heard the interview...or well what was supposed to be an interview!! Jeremy vines didn't give Dawkins a chance really. His first qustion to Dawkins was "So religion is the root of ALL avil?" to which Dawkins said "well, not all". Vines replied "so the title of the programme should be Religion is the root of SOME evil". This went on for about ten minutes, and the programme itself wasn't really discussed, just the title but Dawkins said that he stood by everything that was in the programme except the title. I thought it wasn't very fair really that he did'nt get to spend the time speaking about the programme!!
I thought, I must remember to watch that...but I fell asleep after about 15 minutes but I did see those thousands and thousands of people going to try and be healed and have to say I agree with dawkins!!

That was a pretty wasted interview in my view. I have to say i agree with Dawkins.

DrSzin
10-Jan-06, 16:24
I don't have a strong faith in Science [...]What do you mean when you say you don't have "a strong faith in Science"? Do you believe that science won't solve all the world's problems: technical, social, or whatever? Or don't you think that science will find the answer to Life, the Universe and Everything because there are aspects of reality that are somehow beyond science or otherwise too metaphysical? Or do you simply mean that science won't stop us from destroying our planet and blowing ourselves to kingdom come?

I'm always interested in the thoughts of intelligent people when they don't think like I do. In case you're wondering, I'm crawling here -- that wasn't a piece of sheer arrogance. ;)


I have an agnostic faith in religion [...].Sorry to sound dumb, but what do you mean by that?


[...] but I have a strong faith in Mother Nature who has her back against the wall.I think I get that bit. :) But could you elaborate anyway?

Gleber2
10-Jan-06, 17:18
Firstly I think that science has caused more problems since the industrial revolution than it has cured.I don't think that science has a snowball's hope in a furnace of curing the world's problems.As far as finding the answer to Life,Universe etc.is concerned,I don't think it can define the undefinable.As I have been told many time in these forums,life is constantly evolving. Every problem that science has solved,it has created several more.It is Science which has given us the ability to blow ourselves to kingdom-come.The problem is the people who use the tools given us by our boffins.
If I was given proof of the existance of a deity or superior power then I would have faith. I suppose I meant that the part of my programming which instils faith is waiting to be activated.
Mother Nature,I have always believed to be a self healing entity and she is being eroded by the human race in so many ways that she can't keep up with the depradations and seems to be taking steps to remove the irritants.Waves,earthquakes,diseases like aids and probably bird flue, human diseases developing defences that our medicines cannot penetrate,storms etc.etc.etc.will remove some of the population but I feel that her final card will be the one that plunges us all into the War to End all Wars.Science,I am sure,will supply both sides with better and better weapons and religion will fire up the armies until Armageddon is upon us. Thank goodness I am in the final quarter of my life and probably won't be around to see it happen but,as far as my thinking is concerned,it won't be much longer.Imshallah!!Have I spelt that right.:confused:

DrSzin
10-Jan-06, 17:34
Gawd, you are a pessimist!

Do you think we would have been better to "put a cap on science" a few hundred years ago? Perhaps we should do it now! Or maybe we should simply keep scientific discoveries away from politicians and the military. ;)

If you have proof of a deity, then you don't need to have faith!

As for your thoughts on Mother Earth, I think you would get on well with Crayola. Where is she anyway? I miss her nutty ideas. :)

Gleber2
10-Jan-06, 17:47
I used to be an optimist,and then a pessimist and now I am an absolute realist
I think the major problem started with Caxton!!!Unfortunately we could never be capable of capping science.We started the ride and we will have to stay on until the crash.
Crayola's nutty ideas may not be so nutty.After all, the pagans were there before anyone. I believe she has done a weekend course in witchcraft so watch what you say or you may have to face Armageddon as a frog:D
On faith,I will have to bow to your superior wisdom. You are right,of course.

phoenix
10-Jan-06, 18:44
The root of all evil is man as in mankind............. To overcome this all you need is to believe in Yourself and to Trust and have Faith. Starting with the self and working outwards you can change things........the answers lie within not without........:}

JAWS
10-Jan-06, 19:25
A "Pessimist" is how an Optimist describes a Realist. :confused:

Gleber2
10-Jan-06, 20:42
Is the faith you mention religious faith or faith in self?First move in puting the world to rights is cleaning up your own back yard on all levels.
Anyway, why not, the root of all evil is woman as in womankind or the root of all evil is person as in personkind.;)
I'm a realist and I don't really care about the others. No matter how bad my perception of our present and future,I still manage to nurture a seed of hope.

marty123
10-Jan-06, 21:47
Well sorry to butt in on this very interesting topic, (first time i have thought of joining in on a thread) i am in know way a religous person or have a great scientific knowledge, but i do believe that Religion and science can work hand in hand. Its the individual who gets things confused. I watched with great interest said programme. However the extremists which were shown, show how much trouble the world is in.

I have one question though what was the catalyst that started it all?

Saveman
10-Jan-06, 22:24
Well sorry to butt in on this very interesting topic, (first time i have thought of joining in on a thread) i am in know way a religous person or have a great scientific knowledge, but i do believe that Religion and science can work hand in hand. Its the individual who gets things confused. I watched with great interest said programme. However the extremists which were shown, show how much trouble the world is in.

I have one question though what was the catalyst that started it all?


A deep need within all mankind. Some find science to fill that need. Some find religion. Some find drugs. Most find that, after all is said and done, they still feel empty......most, but not all.

JAWS
10-Jan-06, 22:35
Welcome aboard marty123. There doesn't need to be a catalyst for any particular thread on here. Somebody throws out an idea or asks a question and everybody joins in and fights for the scraps,
Seriously though it's just something which happens. A thread is started and if it generates interest then things just develop.

Oh dear, Gleber2, how do I fudge an answer to your question. Faith in Religion or faith in Self?
I suppose everybody has to have some sort of faith in Self, if they didn't then I suppose people would just roll over and give up.

As for Religion in the broadest sense then I suppose everybody has their own Religion too. They may not call it that or even recognise it as such but I think everybody has a faith in something.

An Atheist has the faith to believe in the fact that there is no sort of Divine Being by whatever name. The Humanitarian has faith in the fact that there is a decent way to Act which requires no sort of Divine Guidance.
Even Scientists put some sort of faith in the fact that Science can eventually either prove or disprove something.

The one thing I have absolutely no faith in is Humanity. If it can go wrong then one way or another humanity will make it go wrong.
The only absolute certainty I have is that, by whatever means, humans came into existence and are currently filling in the time until, by whatever means, they become extinct.
Once that happens, nature will not even blink, it will carry on regardless and will miss us no more than it misses the dinosaurs or the Dodo.

Gleber2
10-Jan-06, 23:04
The extinction of the race in my book is written.However,as far as this planet is concerned,I really hope that we do not manage to totally destroy it as we destoy ourselves.We don't matter,but the Earth and the animals and the plants do.
The question of faith I was asking Pheonix.I would never have got to this ripe old age if I had no faith in self.I managed fairly well without faith in anything else.

phoenix
11-Jan-06, 00:34
Is the faith you mention religious faith or faith in self?First move in puting the world to rights is cleaning up your own back yard on all levels.
Anyway, why not, the root of all evil is woman as in womankind or the root of all evil is person as in personkind.;)
I'm a realist and I don't really care about the others. No matter how bad my perception of our present and future,I still manage to nurture a seed of hope.

Faith in self Gleber2, and keeping life as simple and uncomplicated as possible:}

Rheghead
11-Jan-06, 01:19
Natural Theology


Primitive

I ate my fill of a whale that died
And stranded after a month at sea….
There is a pain in my side.
Why have the Gods afflicted me?
Ow! I am purged till I am a wraith!
Wow! I am sick till I cannot see!
What is the sense of religion and Faith?
Look how the Gods have afflicted me!


Pagan



How can the skin of rat or mouse hold
Anything more than a harmless flea?
The burning plague has taken my household.
Why have the Gods afflicted me?
All my kith and kin are deceased,
Though they were as good as good could be.
I will out the batter the family priest,
Because my Gods have afflicted me!


Medieval



My privy and well drain into each other
After the custom of Christiendie….
Fevers and fluxes are wasting my Mother.
Why has the Lord afflicted me?
The Saints are helpless for all I offer-
So are the clergy I used to fee.
Henceforward I keep my cash in my coffer,
Because the Lord has afflicted me.


Material



I run eight hundred hens to the acre.
They die by dozens mysteriously….
I am more than doubtful concerning my Maker.
Why has the Lord afflicted me?
What a return for all my endeavour-
Not to mention the L.S.D.!
I am an atheist now and for ever,
Because this God has afflicted me!


Progressive



Money spent on an Army or Fleet
Is homicidal lunacy….
My son has been killed in the Mons retreat.
Why was the Lord afflicting me?
Why are murder, pillage and arson
And rape allowed by the Deity?
I will write to the Times, deriding our parson,
Because my God has afflicted me.


Chorus



We had a kettle: we let it leak:
Our not repairing it made it worse.
We haven’t had any tea for a week….
The bottom is out of of our Universe!


Conclusion



This was none of the good Lord’s pleasure,
For the Spirit He breathed in Man is free;
But what comes after is measure for measure
And not a God that afflicteth thee.
As was the sowing so the reaping
Is now the evermore shall be.
Thou art delivered to thine own keeping.
Only Thyself hath afflicted thee!

Kipling

JAWS
11-Jan-06, 01:27
Wow Rheghead, I like that one. Sums things up nicely.

Which reminds me, I must get a spare Kettle!

Rheghead
11-Jan-06, 01:36
Well everything is mentioned
Bird flu, wars in foreign lands, loss of Faith, Double standards, cleanliness or a lack of, conciencious objecting, food shortages, and a kettle :)

A bit like since 9/11 but it was written over 80 years ago.

JAWS
11-Jan-06, 03:25
Rheghead, how could you? You forgot God, Heaven, Mother Earth and Dawkins. ;)
I no particular order, of course.

Rheghead
11-Jan-06, 08:38
What I want to know is what is the LSD in the poem?:confused:

golach
11-Jan-06, 12:01
What I want to know is what is the LSD in the poem?:confused:
As the poem was allegedly written by Kipling I would suggest it means "Libre Solidi denari" vis Pounds Shillings and Pence

skydivvy
11-Jan-06, 13:23
I thought money, or the desire for it was the root of all evil? Personally i think it is man's inherent need to dominate that is the 'root'.
And why is it that after reading the many posts on this board, that I find those most likely to preach at others are not those fired by religious enthusiasm, but the athiests?

DrSzin
11-Jan-06, 13:48
I thought money, or the desire for it was the root of all evil?Indeed. Does anyone else sing a certain Pink Floyd song to themselves whilst reading this thread?


Personally i think it is man's inherent need to dominate that is the 'root'.Can't disagree with that.


And why is it that after reading the many posts on this board, that I find those most likely to preach at others are not those fired by religious enthusiasm, but the athiests?See your previous point. And we don't have ministers or a God to do it for us. :)

Seriously, I really believe that man created the Judeo-Christian/Islamic God in his own image, and it pains me to see people suffer in this life in the hope and/or expectation that they will have a better life in the hereafter. If that sounds arrogant or patronising, then so be it, but it's meant to be philanthropic. Fat chance, eh? :rolleyes:

I think I've said enough on this topic already, so I'll now shutup -- until after the second programme. ;)

Gleber2
11-Jan-06, 14:42
In Kiplings poem,LSD must be lysergic acid.How else could he have seen the future so well?:p
When I say that our prime directive is to survive at all costs,I mean that the main duty to ourselves is to survive and that the only unforgivable sin is to take ones own life.I suppose that this can also be applied on a racial level and we seem bent on self destruction.Ah weel,back to the beginning to try again.

phoenix
11-Jan-06, 17:07
In Kiplings poem,LSD must be lysergic acid.How else could he have seen the future so well?:p
When I say that our prime directive is to survive at all costs,I mean that the main duty to ourselves is to survive and that the only unforgivable sin is to take ones own life.I suppose that this can also be applied on a racial level and we seem bent on self destruction.Ah weel,back to the beginning to try again.

Who says its a sin to take ones own life Gleber2...........Is that a man made decision, or does it come from a higher authority or is that your own personal view? Whos to say that it may have been the persons "mission" to take their own life, for reasons that are unclear to us mere mortals...........What if all of whats happening on the Planet right now is all meant to be, what if we have outlived the physical material world and we are moving on so to speak and that is why we have brought about our own destruction..........personally I cant wait to see whats next. Earth is but a learning ground............The year to look out for is 2012..........

Chillie
11-Jan-06, 17:15
Who says its a sin to take ones own life Gleber2...........Is that a man made decision, or does it come from a higher authority or is that your own personal view? Whos to say that it may have been the persons "mission" to take their own life, for reasons that are unclear to us mere mortals...........What if all of whats happening on the Planet right now is all meant to be, what if we have outlived the physical material world and we are moving on so to speak and that is why we have brought about our own destruction..........personally I cant wait to see whats next. Earth is but a learning ground............The year to look out for is 2012..........

I agree whole-heartedly in what you say but what o what is going to happen in 2012

Gleber2
11-Jan-06, 18:12
Good grief,someone who thinks like me!!!!!What I stated was my own personal conclusion after perusing the multi dimensional directions that this particular sort of thinking can lead you. I cannot argue with you on your'what ifs' as I have looked at the same alternatives.All I can say is 'what does it matter? 2012 has been bandied about for a while. I hope I live long enough to laugh at whatever comes next. Have you sussed out the answer to the Cosmic Joke yet?Boy,have I ever been more ready and I believe 2008 or 2009 is nearer to the date. Anyway it's all an illusion Isn't it?????
They say that our present reality will come to an end 2012 do they not?
We are playing a game and the only law is that regarding suicide. My personal opinion only.

phoenix
11-Jan-06, 20:14
Chillie I havent a clue whats going to happen in 2012. It is claimed that there is going to be some sort of shift as is stated in the old Mayan Calendar Prophecies and that we are in the Apocalyptic years leading up to it.

Gleber2 Surprise surprise we must be reading or have read the same books or have the same "teacher". Beats me how thats come about, I can hazard a guess as to how and why though:} Whats the Cosmic joke you are referring to?

We shall have to wait and see whether its 2008, 2009 or 2012.......... All an illusion? So they say! :}

Gleber2
11-Jan-06, 22:12
I doubt that we had the same teacher as I never had one.My only teacher was a life of travel on the material plane and half a lifetime of flying on other levels.Ive read an awful lot of books and the law of synchronicity would dictate that we have both read some of them. The seeing of the existance of the cosmic joke is the way to the answer.Good luck!
It has been said that the only thing more futile than life on earth is worrying about the futiliy of it.

phoenix
11-Jan-06, 22:43
I feel like I know you Gleber2:}

The seeing of the existance of the cosmic joke is the way to the answer mmmhhh food for thought or is it...........that simple?:}

Gleber2
11-Jan-06, 23:49
Yes,I know what you mean.We are all on the same ladder and it does not matter how high you've climbed because no one has reached the top yet.
One man's simple is another man's hideously complicated.

phoenix
12-Jan-06, 00:59
Gotcha Gleber2.......... I understand:}

JAWS
12-Jan-06, 01:04
As the poem was allegedly written by Kipling I would suggest it means "Libre Solidi denari" vis Pounds Shillings and Pence

Golach, I never realised you were old enough to have known Julius Caesar. :p

Gleber2
12-Jan-06, 02:14
Did you spell 'Pheonix ' wrong or is it me?
So, you understand--Please enlighten he who is still searching.
The punch line of the joke is the Human race but you don't see the point until you know the joke!!!!!

Gleber2
12-Jan-06, 02:17
Golach, I never realised you were old enough to have known Julius Caesar. :p

There was a chiel who lived in Durness Street when we were bairns who wis called Caesar,Maybe thats who he means.

crayola
12-Jan-06, 02:30
Crayola's nutty ideas may not be so nutty.After all, the pagans were there before anyone. I believe she has done a weekend course in witchcraft so watch what you say or you may have to face Armageddon as a frog:D Oooooh, do I have a new member of my fan club?

Are you Wiccan-inclined Gleber2? We'd love to have you on board.

IMO Pagan and Shinto are the only ancient religions consistent with rational thought and extant human experience. Buddhism comes close but its flirtation with deism is a little too flighty for my liking. New Age is nowhere, it's illogical cap'n.

Gleber2
12-Jan-06, 04:15
I know a fair bit about Wicca due to the fact that I had to defend myself in the field and had to take a lot on board very quickly to get myself out of a tricky situation.The year was 1978 and many strange things went down when Pope Paul died and many mushrooms came up. I survived relatively intact,although there are those who would debate that. Henceforth there were aspects of the Wiccan way that stayed with me.An open mind on a very strange path through forty years of questioning has left me with a personal philosophy which conains bits of every thing ,even Christianity.I am more Buhddist than anything else.I probably agree with the feasability of your 'nutty ideas' more than I do with the wise utterings of many of the orthodox, normal people who post in these forums.I refuse to pigeonhole myself or affiliate with any group or order as I believe each of us has to find our own way to the light.There is no safety in numbers.Pagans and druids and followers of the Godess are no longer with us in numbers.They were sent packing by the cross carriers. We have to find a way back by going forward.Watch your own kharma and don't worry about anyone else.

JAWS
12-Jan-06, 05:26
Crayola, Gleber2, is this where the "Tree Huggers" get their ideas?

weeboyagee
12-Jan-06, 11:52
I thought money, or the desire for it was the root of all evil?
Erm,....I was always taught that it wasn't money but the "love" of money was the root of all evil. I love it, I just don't have it! :(


I think I've said enough on this topic already, so I'll now shutup -- until after the second programme
Awwww,....... and you nearly had me converted Dr! :D


New Age is nowhere, it's illogical cap'n.
Thoroughly agree - it's not New Age now it's "Old"' Age and by-gone hype!


I know a fair bit about Wicca due to the fact that I had to defend myself in the field and had to take a lot on board very quickly to get myself out of a tricky situation.....when Pope Paul died and many mushrooms came up....henceforth there were aspects of the Wiccan way that stayed with me...an open mind on a very strange path...has left me with a personal philosophy which conains bits of every thing,even Christianity. I am more Buhddist than anything else. I probably agree with the feasability of your 'nutty ideas'...more than I do with the wise utterings of many of the orthodox, normal people who post in these forums. I refuse to pigeonhole myself or affiliate with any group or order as I believe each of us has to find our own way to the light.There is no safety in numbers.Pagans and druids and followers of the Godess are no longer with us in numbers.They were sent packing by the cross carriers. We have to find a way back by going forward.Watch your own kharma and don't worry about anyone else.
:eek: My skin came up in goose-bumps after reading that!

katarina
12-Jan-06, 12:34
Chillie I havent a clue whats going to happen in 2012. It is claimed that there is going to be some sort of shift as is stated in the old Mayan Calendar Prophecies and that we are in the Apocalyptic years leading up to it.

Gleber2 Surprise surprise we must be reading or have read the same books or have the same "teacher". Beats me how thats come about, I can hazard a guess as to how and why though:} Whats the Cosmic joke you are referring to?

We shall have to wait and see whether its 2008, 2009 or 2012.......... All an illusion? So they say! :}

Am I wrong, but weren't we suppose to be wiped out by a giant meteorite or something in the year 2000?

JAWS
12-Jan-06, 12:58
From a quick check it seems the Mayans had calculated their calendar up to the winter solstice in 2012 which was the end of one of their Eras.
I haven't checked to see if they stopped there because there was nothing after that or because that was just a convenient place to stop because it was so many centuries in the future.
I would guess that they had to stop at some date and decided others could carry on the calculations at a future date.
Of course, somebody always sees a way to make money by writing a book and one predicting the end of everything is bound to sell.

The 2000 thing was a good scare story. All the world's computers were going to stop working and the whole world would stop. However, for an awful lot of money we can fix it for you.
See how good we were because we stopped it happening and saved you all from disaster!
Strangely enough, those who didn't have their computers "fixed" also had no trouble either.

Saveman
12-Jan-06, 13:42
Maybe computers are the root of all evil. Or maybe Microsoft. Maybe not.

Imagine if the whole world was hit by some sort of huge EM pulse.
Would life be better or worse without some of the things we now take for granted?
:cool:

phoenix
12-Jan-06, 13:47
Did you spell 'Pheonix ' wrong or is it me?
So, you understand--Please enlighten he who is still searching.
The punch line of the joke is the Human race but you don't see the point until you know the joke!!!!!

I think it can be spelt either way gleber2....... eo or oe:}

I understand what you mean when you said "one mans simple is another mans hideously complicated":} Ive stopped searching, a complete waste of time and energy:}

As for jokes I was always slow on the uptake as far as they are concerned:]

I didnt believe for one minute Katarina that we were going to be wiped out when the year 2000 started. I do believe though that humanity as a whole is going through and will go through a massive shift.............its started already!

I agree with you Jaws on principal:} My feeling is Humanity is getting a big kick up the bum at the minute..............Change or your of the Planet! We have the choice its up to us:}

phoenix
12-Jan-06, 13:50
Maybe computers are the root of all evil. Or maybe Microsoft. Maybe not.

Imagine if the whole world was hit by some sort of huge EM pulse.
Would life be better or worse without some of the things we now take for granted?
:cool:

Have you read The Celestine Prophecy Savey?

Saveman
12-Jan-06, 14:01
Have you read The Celestine Prophecy Savey?

No I haven't....any good?

Gleber2
12-Jan-06, 14:31
It could be said that a lack of money is the root of all evil:lol:.
Celestine Prophesy is common sense to an intelligent being.
Jaws,I've only ever hugged one tree and when I went back it was dead.End of tree hugging.Don't mock what you haven't tried:o.
Armageddon was predicted in St. John the Mushroom-head's Revelations and has been pinpointed many,many time since. !975 was popular for a while but when we were still alive on Hogmany 1976, a new date had to be found and the most popular is now 2012.See you in 2013.(Maybe)[evil]

phoenix
12-Jan-06, 14:34
No I haven't....any good?

Theyre interesting books Ive read one and two havent got to the third one yet though:}

You maybe right Savey with regards to the Planet being hit by a huge Em pulse, I read not all that long ago that Mother Earth used to resonate around 7.something or other gaus, its now risen to 12..........not sure if thats the correct figures or terms, Ive a memory like a sieve and I cant remember where I read it:}

phoenix
12-Jan-06, 14:48
:eek: My skin came up in goose-bumps after reading that![/QUOTE]

Strange you should say that weeboyagee............it had the same effect on me:} Could have been that EM pulse striking that Savey spoke of:}

JAWS
12-Jan-06, 15:00
The only person I have heard of who was sensible about pedicting the end of the word was a religious leader in India many decades ago.
He predicted the end of the world at a particular time and date.
In order to stop this happening he and his followers would pray and burn butter (don't ask I never found out) on a particular mountain in India.
He was absolutely right, they did save the world because we are still here today.
Now that's what I call using your brain.

Gleber2
12-Jan-06, 15:05
So,to avert the end,we should all go up Morven and burn a few pounds of Anchor. Darned good idea.You will go down in history as Saint Cynic the Sarcastic,saviour of the Human Race..LOL

Saveman
12-Jan-06, 15:08
I burnt some toast yesterday....and we're still here today.....therefore....I saved the world yesterday. :p

cullbucket
12-Jan-06, 21:34
So,to avert the end,we should all go up Morven and burn a few pounds of Anchor. Darned good idea.You will go down in history as Saint Cynic the Sarcastic,saviour of the Human Race..LOL

Dont waste your butter - seems like we only need to do it on hogmanay 2011 by the sounds of things.....

As someone without a spiritual bone in my body, I can see where your coming from Jaws - people can believe in whatever they like, it becomes real enough to them if they want it to badly enough

JAWS
12-Jan-06, 22:27
Now people, as if I wouldn't take something like that seriously.

I was fairly young when it happened. I don't know if it was something new at the time but people took it fairly seriously.
It was like a shorter version of the millennium.
As the day got closer it was mentioned more and more on the radio. (Before most people had TVs. Now that dates me somewhat) Three in the afternoon seems to ring a bell.
Anyway, the BBC, who at that time definitely had no sense of humour at all when it came to news etc., did a countdown as the time neared. Some people were really getting into a bit of a panic.
The time neared, the pressure built. People watched and waited. The time came, people held their breath. The clock ticked on. and .......nothing.
Now it's hard to believe that so many people took it so seriously.
Perhaps it's because we are a little more worldly wise now because we can watch things all over the world as they happen.

Mind you, I do keep a good stock of butter available, just in case, you understand, just in case! :evil

katarina
12-Jan-06, 22:46
It could be said that a lack of money is the root of all evil:lol:.
Celestine Prophesy is common sense to an intelligent being.
Jaws,I've only ever hugged one tree and when I went back it was dead.End of tree hugging.Don't mock what you haven't tried:o.
Armageddon was predicted in St. John the Mushroom-head's Revelations and has been pinpointed many,many time since. !975 was popular for a while but when we were still alive on Hogmany 1976, a new date had to be found and the most popular is now 2012.See you in 2013.(Maybe)[evil]

I loved that gleber - especially the tree hugging bit. I tried it once - still haven't got the green stain out of my blouse.......

JAWS
12-Jan-06, 23:33
I once saw somebody having a long involved conversation with a tree.
I left after half an hour.
The tree was still listening intently to him but steadfastly declining to take a swig from his bottle.

Kenn
12-Jan-06, 23:45
Missed the TV show but did catch the interview on Five Live today.I like his precise form of arguement and that he uses facts not fiction to support his judgements also his fine sense of the ridiculous which had me chuckling. I'm looking forward to the publication of his new book later this year which covers the same subject but in much more depth.

gleeber
13-Jan-06, 00:04
Missed the TV show but did catch the interview on Five Live today.I like his precise form of arguement and that he uses facts not fiction to support his judgements also his fine sense of the ridiculous which had me chuckling. I'm looking forward to the publication of his new book later this year which covers the same subject but in much more depth.
Hi Lizz. Have you read any of his earlier books? If not try A devils Chaplain. Its a series of essays covering everything your likely to encounter on caithness.org and why evidence based science cannot be ignored to add to our understanding of the world we live in.
The message I get from Dawkins is, who needs magic when we got science cos science is magic.

JAWS
13-Jan-06, 00:53
I did the same, LIZZ, missed the TV and caught the Radio Five. After the build up I was quite surprise by him. Not at all as dogmatic as I expected.

His explaining that the question mark at the end of the title was an invitation to make your own mind up. Also his acceptance that to believe Religion is the only possible cause of Evil would just be silly and that there were other causes as well made me pay a lot more attention than I was going to.

I had gained the impression that he would be just as bigoted as the worst kind of Religious Fanatic. He obviously had no time for the "My way and no other" brigade.
Even the Padre, who followed him in the next section, said the attitude of the lunatic preacher who had ranted at him in America terrified him also.

Saveman
13-Jan-06, 00:53
I once saw somebody having a long involved conversation with a tree.
I left after half an hour.
The tree was still listening intently to him but steadfastly declining to take a swig from his bottle.

Thanks for making me laugh out loud!
:D

Whats the purpose behind tree hugging exactly?

Gleber2
13-Jan-06, 01:06
Don't really know what it's about.Maybe we should invite Prince Charles to log in.He should be able to tell you.[smirk]

JAWS
13-Jan-06, 01:28
Aye, Gleber2, but he'll have to bring is own bottle, he's no sharin' mine!

DrSzin
13-Jan-06, 02:19
I loved that gleber - especially the tree hugging bit. I tried it once - still haven't got the green stain out of my blouse.......Could you explain it to a mere scientist, katarina? Gleber2's pronouncements buzz around my head at 100 times the speed of one of JAWS' chalkboard dusters.

I didn't think I was overly thick, but Gleber2's statement that Celestine Prophesy is common sense to an intelligent being made as much sense to me as Dubya's recent justifications for invading Iraq.

Science may be magic, but this practitioner of the ancient art is feeling a little lost amongst the magic mushrooms...

Gleber2
13-Jan-06, 02:41
Have you read the Celestine Prophesy?The simplicity of its message should be apparent to some-one who isn't overtly thick.:roll: The mushroom was being eaten long before there were scientists.Neitche's' Thus Spake Zarathustra' took me longer to read than any other book I've seen.His 'Beyond Good and Evil' I didn't bother to do more than peruse. I had already reached the same conclusions. The Celestine thing falls into the same category but,being that much more simple,I read it all very quickly,and,as I have said,found it very simple common sense.
Is Dubai threatening to invade Iraq?What reasons?
Iran getting a right telling off from France,USA and Britain with Russia and China taking the other side,Border troubles in Ethiopia,Zimbabwe and Eritrea,renewed civil unrest in Indonesia etc. Maybe this belongs to an extinct thread,but is it suddenly getting crazier???

gleeber
13-Jan-06, 08:44
It seems to me that most of the difficulties in human existance can rightly be nailed on the door of belief.
Glebers philosophical ideas are no less valid than mine. (not that I have any. Mine are all borrowed) The only difference between us is evidence. Mind you I exclude philosophy from the area of evidence.
Theres no doubt that the world situation is dangerous and the possibility of a major conflict looms close to each unfolding world crisis.
Such dangers feed something deep in the human psyche which has been craving for attention since the beginning of time. The bible is full of doom and gloom but its message of salvation is its selling point.
Theres nothing new in the pessimism being exposed here. Its a human thing but science has opened a door to address its needs. Freud called it the death drive and believe it or laugh at it. its alive and well on caithness.org.
The end days may well be close and I may be wrong about the inherent good in human nature but my belief is the same as Richard Dawkins. Belief needs to be challenged if there is no evidence other than the subjective ideas of philosophers and the religious whose beliefs have taken not only themselves, but me too, to the edge of extinction.

lassieinfife
13-Jan-06, 09:38
well said gleeber:o

phoenix
13-Jan-06, 13:46
It could be said that a lack of money is the root of all evil:lol:.
Celestine Prophesy is common sense to an intelligent being.
Jaws,I've only ever hugged one tree and when I went back it was dead.End of tree hugging.Don't mock what you haven't tried:o.
Armageddon was predicted in St. John the Mushroom-head's Revelations and has been pinpointed many,many time since. !975 was popular for a while but when we were still alive on Hogmany 1976, a new date had to be found and the most popular is now 2012.See you in 2013.(Maybe)[evil]

Ive been away hugging a few trees to see if I could come up with some Inspiration........seems to have worked :grin:

Gleber2 you say the Celestine Prophecy is common sense to an intelligent being, what about the less intelligent who are repeatedly ridiculed, put upon, bullied etc. In my eyes the Celestine Prophecy books are a Godsend for the lesser intelligent ones who have the wool repeatedly pulled over their eyes and are been ridiculed and bullied by their fellow man. The lesser intelligent ones have been blessed in other ways by having kind, caring and sensitive natures unlike the so-called intelligent ones. To the less informed it informs you how people gain control over you by intimidating, interrogating, playing poor me, and by being aloof.........all designed to control and manipulate and drain the life out of you, until you get wise to it. In my eyes its very informative and would help anyone who feels they are being bullied, whether at home, at work, at school, or even on messageboard forums! :}

Jaws not all books are written and published just to make money, there are "Good" people out there who have "knowledge" and write books as they are concerned for their fellow man and wish to share that Knowledge with them :}

Im away now to hug a few more trees:}

What is an Intelligent being anyway?

Gleber2
13-Jan-06, 14:23
Touche!! I was talking to intelligent beings,I thought,when I made my facetious remarks about the Celestine thingy!!:o)., Are you saying that intelligent folk are more nasty than their less brainy fellows.Cannot agree,in fact that's nonsense,I know quite a few people of 'lower intelligence'who are quite nasty.LOL
Gleeber,how could the Glebe turn out such diverse viewpoints.Gollach,yourself and me?? Must have come from Bayview Ter.,Smith Ter and Holburn Av. You are the voice of reason,I the romantic dreamer.What would that make Gollach?Can't really disagree with you.

weeboyagee
13-Jan-06, 14:50
Gollach,yourself and me?? Must have come from Bayview Ter.,Smith Ter and Holburn Av. You are the voice of reason....
Golach the voice of reason?......

....see what he said about us in another thread (Mandatory DNA testing)...


I would say the those who do not wish to have an ID are a bit suspect, especially if they are wearing yon maroon colours, I would arrest them right away :evil:

.....'at's terrible! That's what you call a voice of reason? More like a voice of treason! Oh, dear,..... (snigger!....)


Celestine Prophesy is common sense to an intelligent being made as much sense to me as Dubya's recent justifications for invading Iraq
Yip - same with me, I'm no scientist but after reading that I went out to hug a tree and I did feel something......................a right pratt! :lol:

It's Friday - I'm in a good mood!

Gleber2
13-Jan-06, 15:41
At no time did I say that Gollach was the voice of reason.I was referring to Gleeber.Did not mean to give anyone an apoplexy.I was asking how Gollach could be described.The 'voice of treason' will do.:grin:

phoenix
13-Jan-06, 16:03
Touche!! I was talking to intelligent beings,I thought,when I made my facetious remarks about the Celestine thingy!!:o)., Are you saying that intelligent folk are more nasty than their less brainy fellows.Cannot agree,in fact that's nonsense,I know quite a few people of 'lower intelligence'who are quite nasty.LOL
Gleeber,how could the Glebe turn out such diverse viewpoints.Gollach,yourself and me?? Must have come from Bayview Ter.,Smith Ter and Holburn Av. You are the voice of reason,I the romantic dreamer.What would that make Gollach?Can't really disagree with you.

I am saying that in my experience Intelligent beings are more nasty than their counterparts........they dont have it in them to be nasty:} They {the intelligent ones} appear to think that its their god given right to be nasty and try to belittle the ones who you say are less brainy. I dont see them as less brainy I see them as having a heart which the so-called intelligent ones appear to lack:} Makes one wonder which ones are really of a "lower" intelligence and which are the ones of a "higher" intelligence:lol:

weboyagee I reckon you are not in tune with nature.........more in tune with man........not forgetting woman and the pub you live beside:lol:

weeboyagee
13-Jan-06, 16:55
weeboyagee I reckon you are not in tune with nature.........more in tune with man........not forgetting woman and the pub you live beside
How could you be so cutting? Of course I am in touch with nature - the sun and the rain matures the barley,...harvested and crafted by the hand o' man turns into the water of life,....served by the bar maid in my favourite pub!!!

You see, I am in touch with them all!! :lol:

....now off to write out my lines as ordered by my PM - "me an' Gleber2 will not pick on golach" (until after the Hearts v Hibs game of course :))

Gleber2
13-Jan-06, 20:43
So he's been at ye as weel Weeboyagee.So lets gang up on him[evil] .Lines indeed!!!
Btw,Phoenix,since when has IQ been a measure of nastiness.You may be right!!

phoenix
13-Jan-06, 21:02
So he's been at ye as weel Weeboyagee.So lets gang up on him[evil] .Lines indeed!!!
Btw,Phoenix,since when has IQ been a measure of nastiness.You may be right!!

I never said IQ was a measure of nastiness, cant remember now what I did say :roll:

Gleber2
13-Jan-06, 23:24
If you are stating that intelligent people have a propensity to nastiness and those further down the academic ladder are generally sweetness and light,then IQ must have a bearing on nastiness.That's wot oi meant.;)

phoenix
14-Jan-06, 00:24
If you are stating that intelligent people have a propensity to nastiness and those further down the academic ladder are generally sweetness and light,then IQ must have a bearing on nastiness.That's wot oi meant.;)

Ahh! I wasnt talking about academic intelligence, thats different, I never mentioned IQ either. I was talking about Intelligent "beings" ........being of a "higher" or a "lower" vibration. I think you used the term Intelligent beings to start with, dont know where the academic bit and IQ came from thats man made. There is a difference:}

A person may have a high IQ and be high up the academic ladder but maybe of a "lower vibration" .....not good, or he may have a high IQ and be high up the academic ladder and be of a "higher" vibration ....that is good, then youve got the person who has a low IQ and further down the academic ladder and is of a "lower" vibration........not good, then you have the person who has a low IQ and further down the academic ladder but is of a "higher" vibration that is good. Does that make more sense? :)

katarina
14-Jan-06, 00:34
Ahh! I wasnt talking about academic intelligence, thats different, I never mentioned IQ either. I was talking about Intelligent "beings" ........being of a "higher" or a "lower" vibration. I think you used the term Intelligent beings to start with, dont know where the academic bit and IQ came from thats man made. There is a difference:}

A person may have a high IQ and be high up the academic ladder but maybe of a "lower vibration" .....not good, or he may have a high IQ and be high up the academic ladder and be of a "higher" vibration ....that is good, then youve got the person who has a low IQ and further down the academic ladder and is of a "lower" vibration........not good, then you have the person who has a low IQ and further down the academic ladder but is of a "higher" vibration that is good. Does that make more sense? :)

Help us all! now my head is buzzing with vibrations - lower - higher - upper - downer - who needs drugs?

katarina
14-Jan-06, 00:41
Could you explain it to a mere scientist, katarina? Gleber2's pronouncements buzz around my head at 100 times the speed of one of JAWS' chalkboard dusters.

I didn't think I was overly thick, but Gleber2's statement that Celestine Prophesy is common sense to an intelligent being made as much sense to me as Dubya's recent justifications for invading Iraq.

Science may be magic, but this practitioner of the ancient art is feeling a little lost amongst the magic mushrooms...

It was just the tree hugging bit I loved actually, it made me laugh. as for the rest.....emm....pass! Actually, call me thick, but I haven't a clue what Celestine Prophesy is!

phoenix
14-Jan-06, 00:45
I think I need to get out and hug a few trees to get me grounded:lol:

JAWS
14-Jan-06, 01:01
People of extremely high intellect make very poor farmers! [smirk]

Gleber2
14-Jan-06, 02:05
Aye!! I am so used to the vibtational level of the average forum user that I did not realise you had jumped levels on me .No arguement.[evil] Imagine being a tree hugger in Orkney?You would have to form a line.:o)

DrSzin
14-Jan-06, 11:08
Help us all! now my head is buzzing with vibrations - lower - higher - upper - downer - who needs drugs?What vibrations? I don't vibrate. Do you?

I have no idea what these New Age types are on about when they use physical terms such as "energy" and "vibrations". As far as I can see, they take well-defined physical concepts and "generalise" them to some mystically-defined "higher plane" that we mere scientists supposedly don't understand. The most amusing thing about New Age writers is that most of them seem to have little idea what the standard meanings are, so one may argue that their constructions are built on sand -- at best. ;)

BTW Phoenix, I'm talking about the authors of New Age books, not about your posts.

katarina
14-Jan-06, 11:27
What vibrations? I don't vibrate. Do you?
.


teee hee heee. Do you really want me to answer that here and now, szin?

phoenix
14-Jan-06, 12:52
What vibrations? I don't vibrate. Do you?

I have no idea what these New Age types are on about when they use physical terms such as "energy" and "vibrations". As far as I can see, they take well-defined physical concepts and "generalise" them to some mystically-defined "higher plane" that we mere scientists supposedly don't understand. The most amusing thing about New Age writers is that most of them seem to have little idea what the standard meanings are, so one may argue that their constructions are built on sand -- at best. ;)

BTW Phoenix, I'm talking about the authors of New Age books, not about your posts.
We all vibrate, we all are energy:} For instance if you have a lot of anger within you you are vibrating on a lower frequency which causes illnessses such as Arthiritis, High Blood pressure etc If you are happy you are vibrating on a higher frequency. If youre sad you are also vibrating on a lower frequency. All you got to do is raise your frequency above the lower ones. Each frequency also relates to a colour and each colour has a different frequency, depending on whether you are negative or positive. ie whatever the colour is.... say its red that can be associated with anger which is a lower negative vibe, on the other hand red is also associated with blood, life, passion etc which is of a higher positive frequency. :} Am I boring you?:confused

Thanks DrSzin......if you hadnt said that I probably would have taken it personally:}

Darth Vadar mmmhhh.......... no need to ask what frequency he vibrated on......but then again we need the dark as well as the light, the negative as well as the positive, the bad as well as the good..........Just to keep things balanced:)

Need to go hug a tree :confused

Tymey
14-Jan-06, 12:55
What vibrations? I don't vibrate. Do you?



Is this like some kind of Star Trek type quantum signature?

golach
14-Jan-06, 12:57
What vibrations? I don't vibrate. Do you?

.

Hmmm the mind boggles...The Good Dr is really a vibrator :roll: whatever next

JAWS
14-Jan-06, 13:17
I understand Strings vibrate but what about atoms?

DrSzin
14-Jan-06, 15:57
We all vibrate, we all are energy:} For instance if you have a lot of anger within you you are vibrating on a lower frequency which causes illnessses such as Arthiritis, High Blood pressure etc If you are happy you are vibrating on a higher frequency. If youre sad you are also vibrating on a lower frequency. All you got to do is raise your frequency above the lower ones. Each frequency also relates to a colour and each colour has a different frequency, depending on whether you are negative or positive. ie whatever the colour is.... say its red that can be associated with anger which is a lower negative vibe, on the other hand red is also associated with blood, life, passion etc which is of a higher positive frequency. :} Am I boring you? No, you're not boring me at all. I'm fascinated by your posts. But you don't really believe any of that stuff do you? ;)

Seriously, could someone please tell me what is vibrating, how you measure the frequency of the vibrations, and how you know which frequency causes which effect?

I know that no-one can answer these questions, so why persist with the belief? And that's all it is -- belief. There's no evidence for it whatsoever. It's merely belief or faith or whatever else you want to call it. The world is indeed doomed if we have to depend on such things. Luckily, we don't. :)

I've just looked at the Celestine Vision website (http://www.celestinevision.com/). Go read the 11 Celestine Insights (http://www.celestinevision.com/in_body.html). Take a look at the third one:

3 A Matter of Energy
We now experience that we live not in a material universe, but in a universe of dynamic energy. Everything extant is a field of sacred energy that we can sense and intuit. Moreover, we humans can project our energy by focusing our attention in the desired direction...where attention goes, energy flows...influencing other energy systems and increasing the pace of coincidences in our lives.

So... "We live not in a material universe, but in a universe of dynamic energy." I see. :rolleyes: This just ain't true. We live in a universe of material which has energy. Unless of course these guys have redefined the meaning of the words "material" and "energy". I think New Agers should invent their own words for new concepts. But then no-one would take any notice of them.

We scientists have theories and we have experiments. We predict numbers and we measure numbers. And the two agree. They agree every time, not just at about 14.30 on Wednesday or wherever jjc happens to be right now.

This Celestine stuff is so naive and simple-minded that no professional scientist, philosopher or psychologist would learn anything new from it. It doesn't predict anything testable, and it doesn't take us anywhere that philosophers, psychologists and indeed sociologists haven't been a million times before. It's just a waffly description of where humanity and technology are now, and it's tied together with a few ill-defined concepts and suggestions on how we should live our lives. Most of the latter are not at all objectionable, and many of them are indeed very desirable, but the "predictions" of the future are merely hypotheses that many (most?) of us have considered from time to time. They also rely on a few physical entities that haven't been tested, but I shan't dwell on them.

So why do people read and believe this stuff? Probably because they like to have something positive to believe in. It's nice to have things tied together in this simple way. We all go through bad times in our lives and it's nice to have some comfort to help us through them. Some people like Celestine thingies, others prefer organised religion such as is provided by the Kirk, or the Chapel, or whatever. A lot of people have their own private homespun beliefs which sit somewhere between the two but with dashes of agnoticism, atheism and Buddhism thrown in for good measure. A lot of people (most of us?) don't spend much time thinking about it at all -- we just get on with life, hardships 'n' all. I think it's also because most people have no idea just how well the world we see is described by science. If you don't know how the world works then you don't have to worry that your new theory is inconsistent with what's already well-established. That's ok. Why should everyone be a scientist? It'd be one heck of a dull world -- God forbid!

Enough! As many will notice, I don't know the first thing about philosophy, sociology or religion, so I'll say no more on the matter. You now see why I'm a scientist -- I'd be hopeless at that other stuff, as all my waffle above demonstrates rather well! Has anybody really bothered reading this far?

Having said all that, Celestine is probably fun to read and I dare say anyone who reads it will enjoy at least some of it -- even if that enjoyment is just a good laugh.

Maybe we should construct our own Caithness.Org-Forum New Age philosophy. I think we could do it quite easily. Between us, we have an amazing range of complementary talents and skills. Is anyone up for it?

DrSzin
14-Jan-06, 16:34
I understand Strings vibrate but what about atoms?Kind of.

In string theory, the particles of physics that we know and love, eg electrons and photons ("particles" of light), are the ground states of the string in different spin and "flavour" sectors. They're very small bits of string so we don't see their stringy properties. But there's no experimental evidence whatsoever for string theory, so don't hold your breath!

Molecules vibrate. Eg, the hydrogen molecule, H2, consists of two hydrogen atoms, and these are held together by electromagnetic forces which depend on the separation of the hydrogen atoms in such a way that you can think of them as being held together by a spring. We can calculate the frequencies of these oscillations from first principles, and we can deduce their frequencies by measuring the frequency of the infrared light absorbed or emitted when the molecule makes transitions between quantum states of vibration of different fequency. Theory gives the measured answers.

Do atoms vibrate? Yeah, kind of. But the vibrations are harder to explain than the vibrations of a spring -- the simple picture is one of a heavy nucleus with electrons in fuzzy quantum orbits around it. In some sense, electrons "vibrate" around the nucleus, but it's not a very good analogy. The atomic nucleus vibrates too. Gamma radiation is emitted when a nucleus makes a transition from an excited vibrational state to one of lower energy.

Aha, I hear some people saying, so we do vibrate after all! Indeed we do, but not in the simple way we heard about previously -- most of our molecular vibrations are incoherent, and those vibrations are well understood at the atomic level. Everything vibrates at some level. Even things in their lowest energy states vibrate due to quantum fuzziness -- the celebrated uncertainty principle is a simple consequence of this fuzziness. How do we know these things? Simple. We construct theories, we work out their consequences, we predict the numerical results of measurements, and we go out and do experiments in order to make those measurements. As far as I'm aware, there's not a single experimental result in the whole of atomic physics that disagrees with the theory. There are lots of unsolved problems in physics but atomic physics ain't one of them. Most of us believe that nuclear physics is also completely-solved in principle, but you'd probably need a computer as big as the Solar System to evaluate the numerical predictions of the theory, so, in practice, people are still doing nuclear physics.

At macroscopic scales, we vibrate like crazy: our hearts vibrate, our arteries vibrate -- that's how blood gets pumped through them, our voice boxes vibrate. These are coherent vibrations of the individual molecules and, at larger scales, cells. And there are the vibrations that katarina and golach may or may not have alluded to. I'd better not mention them here.

Y'all have a nice vibrate now. :)

Saveman
14-Jan-06, 17:21
*Weekend Mode On*

Yes, at a quantum level we all vibrate at a specific frequency. This frequency is far more far reaching than you can possibly imagine. Yes, further than that even.

This frequency dictates which universe in the multiverse we exist in at any one time. So if we could change our, lets call it our "quantum signature" (thanks Tymey) then we could travel further than any rocket ship ever could or would or should or...er....could...ever!

It seems unbelievable that simply changing something abut ourselves would allow us to transverse the very boundary of the physical universe, but unbelievable as it seems, it may seem that way, to some.

Ever driven over a cattle grid? Its like that.

*Weekend Mode Off*

:D

Tymey
14-Jan-06, 17:47
*Weekend Mode On*

Yes, at a quantum level we all vibrate at a specific frequency. This frequency is far more far reaching than you can possibly imagine. Yes, further than that even.

This frequency dictates which universe in the multiverse we exist in at any one time. So if we could change our, lets call it our "quantum signature" (thanks Tymey) then we could travel further than any rocket ship ever could or would or should or...er....could...ever!

It seems unbelievable that simply changing something abut ourselves would allow us to transverse the very boundary of the physical universe, but unbelievable as it seems, it may seem that way, to some.

Ever driven over a cattle grid? Its like that.

*Weekend Mode Off*

:D

Have you been drinking warm beer?

Saveman
14-Jan-06, 17:57
Have you been drinking warm beer?


Ohhh, that makes my blood boil....

JAWS
14-Jan-06, 19:09
Savey, I understand (I use the term very loosely) the concept of multiverses.
If I got the concept right then for every possible outcome there is a universe in which it happens. In one Napoleon won at Waterloo, in another Elvis is alive and well. (And no I haven't seen him)
I have a nagging thought at the back of my mind that I have heard of something called Brain Theory being involved somewhere.
Or maybe it was one of those times when a little more concentration might have helped.

Gleber2
14-Jan-06, 20:05
Heavens,you speak as if you are crazier than me.Dancing pillars of fire we need to become and I can't see us ever achieving it.[evil]

Saveman
14-Jan-06, 20:07
Dancing pillars of fire we need to become and I can't see us ever achieving it.[evil]


Dancing pillars of fire?
How....what...eh?

Gleber2
14-Jan-06, 20:10
To pass the very boundary of the physical universe.Isn't it obvious??[evil]

Saveman
14-Jan-06, 20:18
To pass the very boundary of the physical universe.Isn't it obvious??[evil]

No. Dancing pillars of fire, as I understand them, are physical.
We cannot pass beyond the physical by being something else physical. We'd have to become something other than physical.......we may appear to be dancing pillars of fire, perhaps thats what you mean. But we wouldn't be fire at all.

Gleber2
14-Jan-06, 20:40
Is your name Crowley????[evil] [evil]

Saveman
14-Jan-06, 20:45
No. Why do you ask my name? :)

phoenix
14-Jan-06, 20:48
I do believe DrSzin................Ive read your posts I dont know how many times and Ive come over all kind of sleepy.:} Everything in the Universe has energy and vibrates, Ive just been out with the dog and the night sky is beautiful and the energy pulsing out from the full moon is lovely. Im more inclined to go with the Celestine Prophecies simplicity than the Scientific stuff, my brains not equipped for that. I agree with you {dont know what it is I agree with} and I dont agree with you {dont know what it is that I dont agree with} The only two words in your posts that mean anything to me was "light" and "energy". :}

Strings do vibrate..........I know when someones pulling my strings I feel them vibrate.........thats when I dig my heals in.:}

Gleber2
14-Jan-06, 20:52
Have you heard of Crowley?If you have, then my little funny is obvious,innit.

phoenix
14-Jan-06, 20:54
Aye!! I am so used to the vibtational level of the average forum user that I did not realise you had jumped levels on me .No arguement.[evil] Imagine being a tree hugger in Orkney?You would have to form a line.:o)

What do you mean jumping levels on you? :confused:

Saveman
14-Jan-06, 20:57
Have you heard of Crowley?If you have, then my little funny is obvious,innit.

I haven't sorry.

Gleber2
14-Jan-06, 21:02
I believe you know exactly what I meant.If you didn't see my point then I am not prepared to leave myself open to any more ridicule by explaining it.:lol: :lol: I've had enough, I'll go and match my vibes to a tree and put down roots!!!!

Gleber2
14-Jan-06, 21:04
Crowley was the most famous black magician of the 20th century.

phoenix
14-Jan-06, 21:06
Have you heard of Crowley?If you have, then my little funny is obvious,innit.

Ooohhhh! I was going to ask you Gleber2 why you kept putting evil angry smillies in your posts.........I dont need to now:} I definitely need to go hug a tree now:}

phoenix
14-Jan-06, 21:15
I believe you know exactly what I meant.If you didn't see my point then I am not prepared to leave myself open to any more ridicule by explaining it.:lol: :lol: I've had enough, I'll go and match my vibes to a tree and put down roots!!!!

I havent a clue what you are talking about Gleber2:confused:

Gleber2
14-Jan-06, 21:16
That post was for Savey,you haven't replied to the one before.Anyway,good and evil is a man made concept.Do what thou wilt as long as you harm no-one and damage nothing. My motto is a bit different from Mr.Crowley's.:o :grin: :o) :lol:

Saveman
14-Jan-06, 21:25
OK, no I've not heard of him.

I don't think black magic can help us.
Goodness and humour.....thats a different matter!
(Though probably not enough to escape this universe;))

phoenix
14-Jan-06, 21:29
That post was for Savey,you haven't replied to the one before.Anyway,good and evil is a man made concept.Do what thou wilt as long as you harm no-one and damage nothing. My motto is a bit different from Mr.Crowley's.:o :grin: :o) :lol:

Youve lost me Gleber2 :~

Gleber2
15-Jan-06, 01:52
I jumped level on you!!He HE HO:lol:

phoenix
15-Jan-06, 11:03
I reckon youd better find that Glebe stone Gleber2 ...........the sooner the better:lol: Maybe its to ward of the evil eye that appears to be alive and kicking in the Glebe:p

Gleber2
15-Jan-06, 14:26
Fifty years since I left the Glebe and since I touched the stone.Maybe I got infected by someone's spit.:eyes

Drutt
15-Jan-06, 20:32
I've just been browsing radiotimes.com and stumbled across the repeat times for The Root of All Evil. It'll be reshown on Channel 4 on Sunday 22nd January: the first episode at 2.50am (VIDEO Plus+: 3136938) and the second episode at 3.50am (VIDEO Plus+: 6145261).

phoenix
16-Jan-06, 19:44
Fifty years since I left the Glebe and since I touched the stone.Maybe I got infected by someone's spit.:eyes

Maybe the stone was "programmed" and all who touched it were affected by it[smirk] Hey Gleber2 I see you have Sutherlands from Latheron in your Family background too:cool: or have I got the wrong Gleeber[smirk]

Gleber2
16-Jan-06, 20:31
Often wondered what made me different from most folk.Glad I touched that stone:evil
My Grandfather was born in Latheron but moved to Wick and in 1927 he moved to Thurso.We were in Thurso before we moved to Latheron.Great Great Grandfather lived in Thurso and before that,Reay,Halkirk,Braal,Scrabster,Bower Tower,Stemsteretc.back to 1650.There is only one Gleeber,thank God I am not he.:lol:

connieb19
16-Jan-06, 20:51
Part two of The Root Of All Evil is on Channel 4 at 8pm if anyones interested...

DrSzin
17-Jan-06, 12:35
I enjoyed last night's programme. Once again, St Richard had me in stitches on several occasions. His forthright opinions and his comments on religion as a virus reminded me of some of Gleeber's posts, and that made me smile even more. :)