View Full Version : Copyright theft
Earlier tonight I was told to ‘get a life’ for pointing out that modifying games-consoles in order to circumvent copyright protection is illegal. I don’t get it. Why is it so widely considered to be acceptable to copy software, games, CDs and DVDs? Most of us wouldn’t dream of stealing an actual game or a DVD from a shop, but we find excuses to allow us to download a ripped movie from the web or buy a copied game from a bloke on EBay (or Caithness.org).
I’ve heard people try to justify this theft in a number of different ways. They’ve bought a dozen DVDs in the past six months so it’s okay to download a few films. They only really like one song on the album so they don’t think they should pay for all fourteen. Software companies make so much money that it’s really just the little guy fighting back against the corporation. They are only ‘testing’ the DVD to see if they like the film enough to buy it. The list goes on and on, but nobody has convinced me it’s right.
So, if you are somebody who has managed to convince themselves that copyright theft isn’t the same thing as stuffing a DVD into your jacket when nobody is watching, what is your justification? :confused:
At last we can agree on something but don't you think it's a catch22 situation when technology grants us the ability to copy anything we want to and the law says no.In the music business,I know many musicians who are almost out of business because pitating is so common?
Here is another side of the same coin; this is a clip about the attitude of multinational companies.
"In the middle of 1999, the interests of the pharmaceutical industry (via lobbying through Vice President Al Gore) had resulted in the US actually threatening South Africa with trade sanctions for trying to develop generic and cheaper drugs to fight AIDS etc.
An industry association, Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA) and companies like Bristol-Myers Squibb, Glaxo-Wellcome, and Pfizer, which make the most widely used AIDS drugs, had charged South Africa with violating the World Trade Organization's rules regarding patents and intellectual property.
However, there was nothing illegal about what South Africa was doing, and so the the actions of the pharmaceutical industry drew a lot of criticism that they were concerned mostly about the impacts to their sales.
However, that has not stopped the pharmaceutical industry continuing to pursue its interests. Some 40 such companies took South Africa to court beginning of March 2001, over language in the Medicines Act which would allow for generic production and parallel importing of affordable AIDS drugs.
The public outrage around the world that resulted from these companies trying to do such a thing while people were dying led to them drop their case in April, 2001.
So, would you condemn or condone copyright theft in a situation like that above which would mean the difference between life or death?
No!!no!!no!!I mean I agree with your outrage in that case.
At last we can agree on something ;)
don't you think it's a catch22 situation when technology grants us the ability to copy anything we want to and the law says no. Not at all.
We are all capable of drinking a skin full and then jumping behind the wheel of a car, but we don't excuse drunk drivers on the grounds that their car 'let' them drive whilst intoxicated. We are all capable of beating somebody around the head with a baseball bat, but we don't excuse murderers on the grounds that their weapon of choice 'let' them wield it.
Blaming the availability of ‘rippers’ and console chips for the prevalence of pirating ignores the fact that the people who use pirated software, watch pirated DVDs and listen to pirated music choose to do so.
Your arguement is specious and I don't feel that there is any point in attempting to discuss anything with you. Goodbye.
Way to go Gleber, there's nothing kills a good argument faster than, 'black is black and white is white'.
It must be great to be as perfect as jjc?[smirk]
First, I should point out, for the benefit of those who haven’t seen the thread, that I started this thread in response to DW selling a ‘chipped’ XBox on the ‘Computers & Game Consoles for Sale’ board.
So, moving on…
So, would you condemn or condone copyright theft in a situation like that above which would mean the difference between life or death?
That’s it? Your justification for illegally modifying an XBox is that pharmaceutical companies are trying to prevent the manufacture of generic copies of their drugs? That has to be the worst excuse I have ever heard.
In the spirit of answering your question – If the only option for South Africa were to breach copyright in order to save lives then yes, I would support that. However, that wasn’t their only option and it wasn’t what they did. What they actually did was stand their ground in court and win their case.
Now, back to the modification of your XBox: have you a better argument to justify it than trying to compare it to creating generic drugs?
Just because you aren't doing anything illegal doesn't mean that you are not doing something 'criminal' even if you have the law on your side.
About a decade ago, the music industry was subject to an inquiry into their practice of selling CDs at much higher price compared to audio tape and vinyl format. That inquiry eventually made no judgement that the industry was dealing in any malpractice. As a result, the practice continued.
Anyone with even the smallest slice of intelligence can realise that a tape and a vinyl must cost more in terms of manufacturing costs and raw materials. CDs are so cheap to make they are given away in magazines etc.
I am not condoning pirate copiers for stealing copyright but I can see why they do it, just because they can and also they feel that genuine copies are over priced.
Copyright theft is a symptom of Global poverty, any walk down any Third world market will provide evidence of that. The contrast of affluence between an artist or a music mogul and a poverty stricken street urchin will only fuel the problem.
I myself have never downloaded a piece of music from the net but I can see the attraction. Come to think of it, I don't have a copied CD either. I have taped a film from the TV and kept it though, is that breach of copyright?
Ultimately, copyright theft is a bloodless crime, nobody gets hurt and besides, those poor artists may find it heartening that their music being pirated will provide more income to the third world than any one-off charity concert will provide.;)
I can't find anything to disagree with in your last post. How strange;)
On a £10 CD the artist gets very little from the big companies.
[QUOTE=Rheghead] I myself have never downloaded a piece of music from the net but I can see the attraction. Come to think of it, I don't have a copied CD either. I have taped a film from the TV and kept it though, is that breach of copyright? [QUOTE]
I think not Rheghead, but I may be wrong.
I seem to remember that, many years ago, there was the usual attempt by the TV and Film Moguls to try that one on. As usual, they tried to ride roughshod over the little people with the threat of execution for Copyright Theft as they usually do.
Fortunately for us they got opposition from others more powerful than them.
The conclusion was, if I remember correctly, that people could download programmes and films for their own later use.
I guess what they meant was that you could have a few friends round and you watch downloads on TV then that's OK. If you were to use it for commercial reasons, eg in a Bar or a Hall where you charged for admission, then that would be illegal.
I remember the same people suggesting that there should be a tax on all blank audio-tapes and that they should get the proceeds. They caught a cold on that one too.
I am not condoning pirate copiers for stealing copyright but I can see why they do it, just because they can and also they feel that genuine copies are over priced. But a lot of things are over priced. You couldn’t justify walking in to Gap and stealing a shirt on the grounds that a similar shirt from M&S costs £20 less.
I know you aren’t condoning pirating and I’m not trying to pick an argument here – I’m just trying to talk through this in my own head and see what others think. I genuinely don’t understand how so many people who would otherwise never dream of stealing find it okay to buy a dodgy DVD off a bloke down the Barras.
Copyright theft is a symptom of Global poverty Good point. But does the money generated truly help those who most need it, or are they just pawns being used as the go-between for the wealthy person who wants to buy a pirate DVD and the wealthy person who owns the equipment to churn out pirate DVDs? I doubt that the people selling fake Rolex watches in your Third World market have workshops in their homes where they turn out their product.
In the episode of the Simpsons where Homer gets illegal cable TV installed he is given a booklet entitled "So you've decided to steal cable"
The booklet explains that because all the programs are so poor and all the films are two stars or less then it makes it OK.
I am sure this logic applies to both computer games and DVD's
As for very little money from a £10 CD, ahh poor Popstars!! Must organise a whipround for them now that they are on their last £50 million!!
jjc, this is worrying, I find myself agreeing with you.
I agree most people would not steal the shirt from Gap by if they saw it £20 cheaper on a market stall I doubt they would enquire too closely how it got there.
I suspect that if you can convince yourself that it might just have got there legally, however unlikely that may be, then it's alright to buy it.
I'm not saying that it's right to do that but I suspect the phrase, "It's human nature." comes in to play.
As for Rolex copies, I suspect that Rolex are more bothered about their "Image" than loss of a sale. People who want a Rolex are very unlikely to think, "I'll get an imitation for a tenner off the market instead."
Rolex are more concerned that people might just think that plebs like us can afford their exclusive watches.
It's difficult to create an impression of your superior position in life if the scruffy kid next to you as one looking exactly the same on his wrist, especially when he say to you "Is that a real one mister or did you get yours off the market too?"
Oh, the embarrassment, it's too much to take!"
It is not the small bit that the artist gets that I was really pointing out but the large bit that the big companies are charging for something that costs pennies to make.
pedromcgrory
08-Jan-06, 03:28
download a good quality film every day have done for last few years and try to at least get 3 albums a day ,just watched jarhead and it rubbish
Why not thats what it's there for i down load music the hole time .
connieb19
08-Jan-06, 03:48
I tried to instal Limewire but it made my computer really slow and and it kept closing down so I had to remove it again..I've paid the years subscription too. Any ideas whats wrong?
philupmaboug
08-Jan-06, 03:54
No great surprise for the o2 sales man of the year Pedro, go get em Mr Daily.
pedromcgrory
08-Jan-06, 04:42
No great surprise for the o2 sales man of the year Pedro, go get em Mr Daily.
im thinking your jealous are you ?
My opion on copying is that it is so easy till do and its technolgy thats making it possible and the movie and music industry should be consentrating on that rather than the individual.Its like back in the old days when there was tapes you could copy a tape because you could buy blank tapes and there was a record button on the taperecorder if there was no record button on the taperecorder you couldnt do it.In this day an age we have cds were you need a cd player to play its the same again if you have a cdwriter on your hifi or computer and blank cd you can copy it easy same as dvd and games thats technolgy making it easy for anyone to copy the same as mp3 you can download it and use your pc to put it on any device.
Unless manufactures of computers and all the other gadgets keep making things with the capability of recording copyrighted material the problem is never going to go away.
What i would like to see in the future is cds going out of fashion and have mp3 you can download of the internet and see all the music artist bypass the company that makes there cds and sell there music themselves of there own website and then they can make more money for themselves and sell there music a lot cheaper now that they got rid of all the middle men.And it would also give future artists they same chance to make it big in the music industry
I tried to instal Limewire but it made my computer really slow and and it kept closing down so I had to remove it again..I've paid the years subscription too. Any ideas whats wrong?
How did you manage to remove it? My daughter downloaded it and it gave my computer no end of bother, but everytime i try to remove it, I get the message 'cannot read from file' or something similar.
My opion on copying is that it is so easy till do and its technolgy thats making it possible and the movie and music industry should be consentrating on that rather than the individual.Its like back in the old days when there was tapes you could copy a tape because you could buy blank tapes and there was a record button on the taperecorder if there was no record button on the taperecorder you couldnt do it.
Isn't it the same with cars? A car can go at 150 MPH when it's against the law to go over 70. Why not make it a law that anything illegal is not so easy to do. then the law enforcement could concentrate on the real crimes and not worry about the rather harmless ones.
I tried to instal Limewire but it made my computer really slow and and it kept closing down so I had to remove it again..I've paid the years subscription too. Any ideas whats wrong?
The worst with any filshareing sites it doesnt matter whether you have broadband or not its still slow to download the programs u install are fill of spware and you just dont know what else your getting in your downloads
Isn't it the same with cars? A car can go at 150 MPH when it's against the law to go over 70. Why not make it a law that anything illegal is not so easy to do. then the law enforcement could concentrate on the real crimes and not worry about the rather harmless ones.
True but it would be more dangerous to restrict a car to 70 because there might be situations that arrive were you might need that bit extra speed overtaking if misjudge a situation but give it another 10 years when the black boxs that work by satelite speeding will be a crime of the past big brother strikes again?
BustedShoe2
08-Jan-06, 12:28
I've downloaded music in the past but generally disagree with the idea. I find the quality of music you get from file sharing sites isn't as good as if you bought the CD.
I wouldn't like to see CD's being replaced by mp3 downloads although it may seem better value for money. What you buy with the CD isn't just the disc itself, it's the artwork and liner notes that go with it, something you can go back and read time and time again.
The comment on how much the artist gets from a sale of a £10 cd... It may only be a little but that may be all that keeps the artist going.. Just because an artist makes good music doesn't mean they are mainstream and if not, that WILL impact on their sales.
With regards to the console subject, I wouldn't agree with this either.
If the software for your console is too expensive for you, maybe you shouldn't have bought the console. If you do choose to go down the route of piracy then you can't demand to see the same good quality products you would if you paid in full.
So there seems to be a general feeling that the manufacturers are responsible for the prevalence of piracy because they don’t do enough to stop people and that until it is impossible for people to break copyright law you can’t really blame them for doing so.
I suppose the first question would have to be: what happened to personal responsibility? We are each expected to curb our behaviour every day so that we don’t break a myriad of other laws and where we don’t then we are held accountable… so why is piracy different? Why are we not responsible for our own actions when it comes to downloading and viewing illegal films?
My other concern with this justification is that many DVDs and CDs do have copy protection and most software does require you to have a valid registration code. Whilst it may be ‘easy’ for you or I to download a DVD ripper to bypass copyright protection that doesn’t mean that the DVD doesn’t have any, and whilst using somebody else’s registration code to activate a copy of Paintshop Pro might seem pretty simple, it doesn’t mean that the registration code wasn’t required.
Sony recently started including stealth software on some of their CDs that prevented illegal copying. When this was discovered computer-security experts were (rightly) appalled at some of the methods Sony had used because they opened up PCs to some malicious attacks. Several lawsuits were filed and Sony quickly reversed its policy and announced that no new CDs would be produced with this technology. Sony went too far in this case, but it just goes to highlight how difficult it is for manufacturers to build adequate protection in to their products without overstepping the mark themselves.
connieb19
08-Jan-06, 13:19
I don't know much about it but is downloading music bad for your computer?
A lot of its there own fault because look at all the game consols today there all cd or dvd disks which are so cheap to buy and are easly copied and chipped.If you went back 20 years ago game consoles didnt have games on disks but on cartridges you could copy that so easily as what u can on todays equipment.maybey they games industry should divert back to that and copyright the cartidge so no one can develop blank cartridges for sale.
downloading anything doesnt hurt the computer its when you go onto a website thats not a trusted website if you like you dont know what else is in the program you are downloading a lot of downloads have spyware built into the program to monitor what your habits online
I suppose the first question would have to be: what happened to personal responsibility?
Whatever happened to corporate responsibility?
Copyright theft can be likened to a fire, in so much that a fire needs three elements(fuel, oxygen,heat) for it to start. Take one of those elements away then you have no chance of a fire.
The three elements for Copyright theft to occur are:-
1. A financial incentive
2. An available means to do it
3. A sense of freedom from prosecution
Now we could argue til the cows come home which one is the best target to tackle it but one thing is for sure, a half-hearted 3 pronged attack will only let it spread.
I wouldn't work in a firework factory where there were no fire extinguishers, the place was untidy and eveyone was allowed to smoke. But there are people dumb enough to do that though. That is the short comings of relying on personal responsibility because responsibility has its foundation in ethics and intelligence.:p
connieb19
08-Jan-06, 13:40
How did you manage to remove it? My daughter downloaded it and it gave my computer no end of bother, but everytime i try to remove it, I get the message 'cannot read from file' or something similar.I'm not sure because I got my nephew to remove it I gave him a ring just now and he said you can just remove it from your control panel..Sorry im no good at all this stuff!!
So there seems to be a general feeling that the manufacturers are responsible for the prevalence of piracy because they don’t do enough to stop people and that until it is impossible for people to break copyright law you can’t really blame them for doing so.
I suppose the first question would have to be: what happened to personal responsibility? We are each expected to curb our behaviour every day so that we don’t break a myriad of other laws and where we don’t then we are held accountable… so why is piracy different? Why are we not responsible for our own actions when it comes to downloading and viewing illegal films?
My other concern with this justification is that many DVDs and CDs do have copy protection and most software does require you to have a valid registration code. Whilst it may be ‘easy’ for you or I to download a DVD ripper to bypass copyright protection that doesn’t mean that the DVD doesn’t have any, and whilst using somebody else’s registration code to activate a copy of Paintshop Pro might seem pretty simple, it doesn’t mean that the registration code wasn’t required.
<snip>
I'm forced to agree. Just because we can do something doesn't mean we should. Perhaps better education of the main demographic of society that dabble in the joys of mp3, warez and 800Mb movies would go a long way to helping.
What percentage of people who currently download would stop if they knew they would be prosecuted for it?
Its slowly filtering through but not quick enough.
Perhaps better education of the main demographic of society that dabble in the joys of mp3
I would just add that mp3 in itself is not illegal, it is just a file format and there are thousands of perfectly legal mp3 tracks to download. You have plenty of your own available for download Savey!
The education would need to target commercial music which the copyright holder has not given permission to be downloaded freely.
I would just add that mp3 in itself is not illegal, it is just a file format and there are thousands of perfectly legal mp3 tracks to download. You have plenty of your own available for download Savey!
The education would need to target commercial music which the copyright holder has not given permission to be downloaded freely.
Quite right. Thanks for pointing that out.
:D
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