View Full Version : Leaving kids alone whilst shopping
Just been doing our shopping at tesc this morning and noticed when we got there a child of about maybe 2 yrs old strapped into a car seat, in the back of the car outside tescos, in the mother and toddler section, Now we were in there about a good hour, and returning to the van noticed the same car with child alone still there.
Is this a normal practice for parents to leave a child alone in a vehicle, whilst they do their shopping.What happens if there was a fire or something else goes wrong. I dont agree with this and was wondering if anyone else disagrees and for other reasons.:mad:
Just been doing our shopping at tesc this morning and noticed when we got there a child of about maybe 2 yrs old strapped into a car seat, in the back of the car outside tescos, in the mother and toddler section, Now we were in there about a good hour, and returning to the van noticed the same car with child alone still there.
Is this a normal practice for parents to leave a child alone in a vehicle, whilst they do their shopping.What happens if there was a fire or something else goes wrong. I dont agree with this and was wondering if anyone else disagrees and for other reasons.:mad:
I know its frustrating when you get to a shop and a toddler/small child is sleeping, you don't wish to wake them up but you value their safety more. Personally I would take the child out of the car as I could not relax knowing they were not with me. Alternatively you could shop online negating the need to leave the child alone.
i would never leave my child.... never have and never will
to be thats classified as neglect
this child was not sleeping he was playing the whole time.I hate to think what could have happened
I'm sorry, but to be honest, I would have reported it.
No child should ever be left on their own, even if they are fast asleep. Anything could have happened to them, and as far as I am concerned, that was just completely irresponsible.
Sorry - just read your post to say that the child was not sleeping, so that makes it even worse!
I have seen this more than once, can't understand why folk do it (I know you can shop quickly and no hassle) but it makes my blood boil I wonder what happens if the child gets sick and has no help. the trolley folk should take car numbers and have the parents called for. My 3yr see's this and asks to stay in the car, will never happen.
I could never do that -what if the child had become distressed and panicky? Leaving sleeping children isn't any better -what if they wake up and feel disorientated and upset?
How can folk relax and do their shopping in that situation? :confused
Sometimes I feel that dog owners show more responsibility for their pets than some parents (a minority, thankfully) show towards their children....:(
even with my tribe they all come into the shop with us, no matter which shop.opens up peoples eyes but better be safe than sorry.
Kevin Milkins
16-Sep-08, 12:12
I worry if I pop into Tesco and leave my dog in the car.
I am never in a shop very long but I worry " what if the sun comes out and it gets too hot in the car" ( and thats on a snowy day )lol.
Welcomefamily
16-Sep-08, 12:20
There is little question, this would be child abuse and I would think no less of you for reporting it, I would consider it unacceptable to leave a child as young as 5 in a car for more than 30 mins.
unfortunately i did not take any registration details this time but in the furture i will certainly be keeping my eyes open, This is not the first time i have seen this, and like someone mentioned, i think it unfair a dog be taken out to the shops just to be left in the car, never mind a child.
I know it can be inconvienient for some parents to be lugging there half tired crying kids round the supermarket, but to be honest if i can manage it with my lot then 1 or 2 would be easy. I still hope that parents learn about the dangers of leaving children alone in a car, whether it is cold or not outside, too many dangers..
highlander
16-Sep-08, 13:00
Justine you said the bairn was in the car for an hour, i cant understand why you could not have gone into tesco to report it, for all you know the parent may have taken ill, taken to hospital for a reason and no one knew that a child had been left alone, it would not have taken two minutes just to ask them to keep an eye on the car, if i was a concerned parent i would have had no hessation just for my own peace and mind.
I would very much doubt that the social services could make a case of child neglect out of an incident such as this.
Maybe not, but at least it would have made the parents think twice before leaving the child again, if that is what happened.
i would never do this, as anything could happen in a few minutes, never mind a whole hour dont know how anyone could leave their child alone.
Bad Manners
16-Sep-08, 13:32
I would have reported it to the shop straight away,It may be that the parent or whoever has not realised how serious this can become this would serve as a reminder to them not to leave a child unattended when confronted with them I would assess the situation and if need be report the matter to the police as it is child abandonment.
hopefully this was just a one off I would not like to think of children being left alone as a regular thing after all they are not animals or toys.
Of course, all the busybodies of the world are being sanctimonious and doing nothing but saying everything.... maybe this... perhaps that... next time I'll.... blah, blah, blah.
The child was seen twice alone. How many times did you see someone go out to the car whilst you were shopping? How do you know that there wasn't another parent or guardian maybe walking around the car park perhaps with a dog, watching the car for signs of problems? You don't. And it's incorrect to judge others for doing something you consider wrong when not in full view of the facts.
The person isn't able to defend themselves here but they're called fit to burn for neglect. I say this to all of you moaners and do gooders - prove the facts before mouthing off and people in glass houses etc...
Maybe we are not in full view of the facts, but I would much rather report something like this, than not bother to do anything at all.
The bottom line is that where children are concerned, you are better to be safe than sorry.
And if that means I run the risk of being called a busybody, then that is a risk I'm more than prepared to take!
I was going to say we have a pup and wouldn't leave him in the car unattended for more than 5 minutes even then we can't settle until we get back to the car for him usually if i have to leave him and i know i'll be a while i will take someone else with me...!!
I could never do that -what if the child had become distressed and panicky? Leaving sleeping children isn't any better -what if they wake up and feel disorientated and upset?
How can folk relax and do their shopping in that situation? :confused
Sometimes I feel that dog owners show more responsibility for their pets than some parents (a minority, thankfully) show towards their children....:(
I guess we are all generally too quick to judge I read this before I put my comment in and to be fair that is totally true I have left our pup in the car sleeping (with window open) and been around the car but not actually in it so possibly we should think twice before commenting :D
Of course, all the busybodies of the world are being sanctimonious and doing nothing but saying everything.... maybe this... perhaps that... next time I'll.... blah, blah, blah.
The child was seen twice alone. How many times did you see someone go out to the car whilst you were shopping? How do you know that there wasn't another parent or guardian maybe walking around the car park perhaps with a dog, watching the car for signs of problems? You don't. And it's incorrect to judge others for doing something you consider wrong when not in full view of the facts.
The person isn't able to defend themselves here but they're called fit to burn for neglect. I say this to all of you moaners and do gooders - prove the facts before mouthing off and people in glass houses etc...
As for reporting it to the shop... how do we know it wasn't?
The point I'm trying to get across here is that there are too many people banging on about a kid in a car who may or may not have been alone. My wife has been in the shop loads of times while I've stayed with the bairns. But at least I can get out and stretch my legs. God help me if the cops appeared because somebody said I was neglecting them.
But ultimately, the kid isn't being neglected. Foolish to leave the child if the parent has gone inside shopping, I agree. But consider this, the child may have been left alone in the house. Now that's worth fretting over. That's worth complaining about.
Of course, all the busybodies of the world are being sanctimonious and doing nothing but saying everything.... maybe this... perhaps that... next time I'll.... blah, blah, blah.
The child was seen twice alone. How many times did you see someone go out to the car whilst you were shopping? How do you know that there wasn't another parent or guardian maybe walking around the car park perhaps with a dog, watching the car for signs of problems? You don't. And it's incorrect to judge others for doing something you consider wrong when not in full view of the facts.
The person isn't able to defend themselves here but they're called fit to burn for neglect. I say this to all of you moaners and do gooders - prove the facts before mouthing off and people in glass houses etc...
OK -if expressing my opinion that a very small child shouldn't be left alone in a car makes me a sanctimonious, moaning, do-gooding busybody, than that's exactly what I am! :roll:
OK -if expressing my opinion that a very small child shouldn't be left alone in a car makes me a sanctimonious, moaning, do-gooding busybody, than that's exactly what I am! :roll:
I am at times as well. But before I'd express an opinion I'd like to make sure I'm aware of the facts!
Bad Manners
16-Sep-08, 14:06
I dont think everybody was out to hang draw and quarter them they were expressing their feeling on what they would do if they found themself in the same situation.
I do not think this was a deliberate act of child neglect but possable a misguided one.
However I stand by what I have said previously I would report the situation to someone be it shop,or authority because you dont know what has or could happen if this makes me a busybody then so be it I would rather be that than someone who passed by and did nothing.
how would you feel if you did nothing and there was some sort of accident and the child injured it's self?
If I suspected that a child was left in a car whilst the parent/s went shopping then I would have no qualms in reporting the matter to the police.
If I read the the situation wrongly I wouldn't really give a damn as the childs safety is more important than any embarrassment to the parent/s of the child.
As for reporting it to the shop... how do we know it wasn't?
And how do we know if it was reported?
Everyone here is commenting on what they would do in this kind of situation - it's the situation we are judging.
What if we all saw this, and we all just assumed that someone else had reported it? That's always the problem - we always assume that someone else will help, someone else will take responsiblity, someone else will get involved and deal with it.
With that kind of attitude, who knows what might happen.
At the end of the day, we all have a responsiblity to protect children if we can.
Margaret M.
16-Sep-08, 14:14
In most states here it is against the law to leave a child unattended in a car. Too many children have died in cars because people chose to look the other way or assumed that someone was close by.
When I was in Wick recently, I was amazed to see babies/tots left in strollers outside the shop doors. I thought the time when one could safely do that had long since passed. In my opinion, this is every bit as dangerous as leaving them in the car.
I would have reported it 'just in case' and if a guardian had been around taking the dog for a pee or having a fag then so be it. Better than coming on here starting a thread about it - what good does that do the bairn :roll:
If I suspected that a child was left in a car whilst the parent/s went shopping then I would have no qualms in reporting the matter to the police.
If I read the the situation wrongly I wouldn't really give a damn as the childs safety is more important than any embarrassment to the parent/s of the child.
So Tesco is going to be flooded by reports of kids being left alone in cars in the car park and please can they do something about it?
So many are going on about what they would or wouldn't do... so knowledgeable after the fact.
Was it reported? No. At least I don't think so.. as I said earlier I haven't got the full facts --- so get down off the high horse
So Tesco is going to be flooded by reports of kids being left alone in cars in the car park and please can they do something about it?
So many are going on about what they would or wouldn't do... so knowledgeable after the fact.
Was it reported? No. At least I don't think so.. as I said earlier I haven't got the full facts --- so get down off the high horseThis has nothing to do with tescos. This would be a police matter and I would have called them in that situation.
What has 'knowledgeable' after the fact got to do with anything?
The child was left alone, there could have been an innocent explanation but I would have still reported it.
when my wee one was a baby i wouldnt even leave her outside in her pram, in this day and age you just cannot do this, it takes a second for something to happen to your child and is not worth the risk
This has nothing to do with tescos. This would be a police matter and I would have called them in that situation.
What has 'knowledgeable' after the fact got to do with anything?
The child was left alone, there could have been an innocent explanation but I would have still reported it.
I did wonder when you would pop up and start. I refer you to my first post.. assuming you did read it, (like jumping on bandwagons don't you?) from which I quote...
Of course, all the busybodies of the world are being sanctimonious and doing nothing but saying everything.... maybe this... perhaps that... next time I'll.... blah, blah, blah.
You included![evil]
It seems to me that people are jumping to conclusions. No registration was taken so could be a similar car? They may have just returned from buying something to return an itemthat was faulty,so was their second trip? 1 of the parents may have had a quick ciggie(After all if they smoked in the car it would be on here too!!!).There is so many if's and buts. I remember a thread like this before that ended up getting removed due to lack of "Correct" facts.
It seems some are quick to judge without a jury and that seems to be the formula at the moment. If you have ALL the facts then yes report, but dont jump to conclusions and assume the rest of the world are bad parents. :(
It seems to me that people are jumping to conclusions. No registration was taken so could be a similar car? They may have just returned from buying something to return an itemthat was faulty,so was their second trip? 1 of the parents may have had a quick ciggie(After all if they smoked in the car it would be on here too!!!).There is so many if's and buts. I remember a thread like this before that ended up getting removed due to lack of "Correct" facts.
It seems some are quick to judge without a jury and that seems to be the formula at the moment. If you have ALL the facts then yes report, but dont jump to conclusions and assume the rest of the world are bad parents. :(
Thank you Hotrod 4. Someone who agrees with me and can see sense. :Razz
I also had the thought that it could have been a second trip but just hadn't got around to saying it. I am not alone... yippee!
I did wonder when you would pop up and start. I refer you to my first post.. assuming you did read it, (like jumping on bandwagons don't you?) from which I quote...
Of course, all the busybodies of the world are being sanctimonious and doing nothing but saying everything.... maybe this... perhaps that... next time I'll.... blah, blah, blah.
You included![evil]Glad to see you were thinking about me.;)
Do you think that the matter should have been reported or not?
If you were in that situation would you have reported it as I certainly would have?
Are you angry with Justine for posting on here about a scenario she found herself in but did nothing about? If so then what has that got to do with the other posters on this thread who were told of the situation by Justine and commented on what they would have done in her place.
I stated what I would have done in that situation and that makes me a sanctimonious busybody, how so?
That's an evil looking emoticon by the way, really scary.
Maybe not, but at least it would have made the parents think twice before leaving the child again, if that is what happened.
I doubt that very much if they are the sort to leave them in the car for an hour in the first place.
Wow this is the kind of thread that is so often slagged off on here! Little wonder - Justine commented on what she saw and it started with peoples comments and views and became a slanging match! There is no need for this. Although it is not a nice subject and there are very many possible scenarios - surely it is better for people to comment and inspire thought in the reader. If there was a purely innocent explanation would that not be fantastic? The child was safe and cared for but also someone else, a stranger, cared enough to check! Surely in this day and age where not very many people seem to have a care but for themselves would that not be a good thing?
Glad to see you were thinking about me.;)
Do you think that the matter should have been reported or not?
If you were in that situation would you have reported it as I certainly would have?
Are you angry with Justine for posting on here about a scenario she found herself in but did nothing about? If so then what has that got to do with the other posters on this thread who were told of the situation by Justine and commented on what they would have done in her place.
I stated what I would have done in that situation and that makes me a sanctimonious busybody, how so?
That's an evil looking emoticon by the way, really scary.
Glad you're scared.
Not angry with Justine, just angry at the fact that people make assumptions and start witch hunting. If she felt strongly about it, she should have reported it. But it's cowardly not too report it and ignorant to broadcast it to the world in general and the Org in particular, when only one person saw that child, Justine herself (ok-maybe her hubby as well), and then everyone judges the parents without knowing the facts.
My gripe is that everyone, including you, said that they would do this or that and generally made what I would call sanctimonious remarks without having the full facts available.
I'm as guilty as anybody else of being sanctimonious and pious and full of self-righteousness from time to time. But to see people banging on about reporting the parents to the social services or the police or reporting them to the store is really annoying. Especially as those people didn't know what really happened. There are times when it's best to shut up and say nothing, or sit on the fence and try to see both sides of a one-sided story and try to say something sensible.
I would hate to have been King Solomon. Damned if I'm right - damned if I'm wrong.
Glad you're scared.
Not angry with Justine, just angry at the fact that people make assumptions and start witch hunting. If she felt strongly about it, she should have reported it. But it's cowardly not too report it and ignorant to broadcast it to the world in general and the Org in particular, when only one person saw that child, Justine herself (ok-maybe her hubby as well), and then everyone judges the parents without knowing the facts.
My gripe is that everyone, including you, said that they would do this or that and generally made what I would call sanctimonious remarks without having the full facts available.
I'm as guilty as anybody else of being sanctimonious and pious and full of self-righteousness from time to time. But to see people banging on about reporting the parents to the social services or the police or reporting them to the store is really annoying. Especially as those people didn't know what really happened. There are times when it's best to shut up and say nothing, or sit on the fence and try to see both sides of a one-sided story and try to say something sensible.
I would hate to have been King Solomon. Damned if I'm right - damned if I'm wrong.We were given a scenario and that is what I commented on. Placed in the position where I thought a child had been left alone in a car for an hour I would have called the police. Damned if I do, damned if I don't is a dilemma I wouldn't worry about in that situation.
Justine in hindsight should have acted on the matter if she felt strongly enough about it. If she chose to do nothing then I agree, why post about it.
Do you think that the matter should have been reported or not?
If you were in that situation would you have reported it as I certainly would have?
No, I don't think it should have been reported. I wouldn't have. That alone opens a whole new can of worms. If I'd been hanging around to see if anyone was looking after the child, I would have been accused of ill intent. Questions flying at me... How do you know the child is alone? Why where you waiting to see if there was an adult? Can you explain sir, why you were near that car? Why exactly did you come here today? Are you on your own?.... Have you had dealings with the police before, sir?
A child in a car... leave well alone, maybe. True child neglect? Then interfere and busybody away because that is wrong.
If she chose to do nothing then I agree, why post about it.
Thank you. I'm glad we agree on that
My gripe is that everyone .... said that they would do this or that and generally made what I would call sanctimonious remarks without having the full facts available.
On further reflection, I'd dispute that I was being 'sanctimonious' since it appears to mean 'pretending to be very religious and virtuous' or 'hypocritically pious or devout'.
I'm not religious and I don't pretend to be -neither am I a hypocrite![lol][lol]
Justine you said the bairn was in the car for an hour, i cant understand why you could not have gone into tesco to report it, for all you know the parent may have taken ill, taken to hospital for a reason and no one knew that a child had been left alone, it would not have taken two minutes just to ask them to keep an eye on the car, if i was a concerned parent i would have had no hessation just for my own peace and mind.
For all you know the parent may have had sudden and uncontrollable attack of diarrhoea, a multitude of things could have happened. Maybe the car was parked there as Justine went in just so the mum or dad could grab a newspaper or pint of milk, off they go home and an hour later get back to Tesco and park in the same spot to nip in for something else, it's not unfeasible.
Of course, all the busybodies of the world are being sanctimonious and doing nothing but saying everything.... maybe this... perhaps that... next time I'll.... blah, blah, blah.
The child was seen twice alone. How many times did you see someone go out to the car whilst you were shopping? How do you know that there wasn't another parent or guardian maybe walking around the car park perhaps with a dog, watching the car for signs of problems? You don't. And it's incorrect to judge others for doing something you consider wrong when not in full view of the facts.
Well said 3of8. It would be better to just wait and see what happened instead of jumping to conclusions and ringing the police or social services!
No, I don't think it should have been reported. I wouldn't have. That alone opens a whole new can of worms. If I'd been hanging around to see if anyone was looking after the child, I would have been accused of ill intent. Questions flying at me... How do you know the child is alone? Why where you waiting to see if there was an adult? Can you explain sir, why you were near that car? Why exactly did you come here today? Are you on your own?.... Have you had dealings with the police before, sir?
A child in a car... leave well alone, maybe. True child neglect? Then interfere and busybody away because that is wrong.It's a sad reflection on society when people feel they have to walk on by leaving a kid in possible danger because they feel they may be accused of something untoward.
Are we all be coming apathetic and fearful in this day and age.
I am not having a go I just think there are too many who jump to conclusions and would assume the worst.If we were all as good at parenting as we Think we are then the world would be a better place. Easy to judge what other people do without knowing all the facts and assuming the worst case scenario.
Justine states that the child wasnt sleeping and was playing "all the time" this obviously has to be an assumption as if thats the case she must've stood their watching the child for the hour she was doing her shopping!!!!.
Who knows what really happened, the incident has passed no-one got hurt, its too easy to say "I would have done x,y,z" If you havent been in that situation who knows how we will react?.
There are too many people who think they are the guardians of society who arent armed with all the facts but still preach about what we should and shouldnt do.
If you are faced with a tricky scenario then deal with it however you see fit, no point posting after the fact on the org,what good will it do?
It's a sad reflection on society when people feel they have to walk on by leaving a kid in possible danger because they feel they may be accused of something untoward.
Are we all be coming apathetic and fearful in this day and age.
No, I'm not apathetic and fearful. But once bitten, twice shy. In a previous life I tried. It didn't work and I came out of the whole sorry situation regretful and wary. I'll fight for what's right, but that's it.
In most states here it is against the law to leave a child unattended in a car. Too many children have died in cars because people chose to look the other way or assumed that someone was close by.
When I was in Wick recently, I was amazed to see babies/tots left in strollers outside the shop doors. I thought the time when one could safely do that had long since passed. In my opinion, this is every bit as dangerous as leaving them in the car.
I for one would never leave any of my kids outside a shop in their prams, if the prams/buggys cant get into the shop then i wont go in, you just never know who is going about, it is just to dangerous no matter where you are.
theres a point! *G* its perfectly ok to leave a child in an open buggy on a busy pavment in the middle of town at any given time. but at the same time its a horrifying thing to do to leave them in the car?
now if it was a hot day and they could die of heat then this is a very dif. story.. but wait we live in wick.
now i dont agree with the practice of either.. but i have seen myself doing both. dashing into a shop for something and leaving the baby in the pram or car for the two min it takes to run in and grab the prescription or what not.. wouldnt do it now.. the little angels would prob. figure out how to hotwire the car and drive off!! sam is into racing games!
but in all seriousness.. its not the best idea in the world.. but in my opinion.. ahmm stealing a few words from JESUS...
let he who has no sin cast the first stone.
i agree with everything being said.. i have left my child in the pram or car whilst asleep(if he was awake id take him) and gone in and grabbed the pint of milk or bread(usually for said child) and left him at most for 5 mins, i certainly would not leave him for an hour. not for safety reasons( as i am not this sensible), but because id be terrified hed become distressed at being alone. But as said, im not critisising this person, we do not know that facts. Id have assumed that the gardian was only going to be 2 mins and thought not alot else. to come out and see a child still there after an hr, i would have become concerned, possibly waited around gooing at the child, but who knows what any of us would do unless in that situation. at least these threads- for those of us who read them, will make us think if we are in that situation.
Welcomefamily
16-Sep-08, 19:42
If the child had been left in the car for longer than 10 mins I would still have no hesitation in reporting it to the Police. It is still better to be safe than sorry.
silverfox57
16-Sep-08, 19:45
would not like to be up in court,if some on here where on jury panel
would not like to be up in court,if some on here where on jury panelThat's pretty harsh as most are only saying what they would do given that particular situation. They are not saying that the parent/s should be hung, draw and quartered without evidence of neglect of some kind. Is it not more level headed to actualy take stock of the situation and if you think a child is in possible danger then report it to the authorities.
Someone reporting it is just showing that they have a concern for that childs well-being. Calling it as you see it means whether those fears are unfounded or not are neither here nor there.
sassylass
16-Sep-08, 21:54
Unattended children are in potential danger. Just ask Madeline McCann's parents.
Let the authorities sort it out, that's why we have police.
I often tell people that the thing that struck me the most on my arrival in Wick 4 years ago, was the fact that people left their children in a pram at the door of shops. How privledged I am to live in a place where people feel so safe and comfortable they would be able to do that. At the same time ( and probably because of the scepticism that comes with having lived in too many places and having seen not the worst, but some bad stuff that big cities always show you if you keep your eyes open), at the same time I think that it is just waiting to happen.....one day something will happen that will destroy the "innocence" (for want of a better word) that still exists here. That would be a sad thing for this community and a disaster for the family affected.
All of us make mistakes, as people and as parents. Some of those mistakes have terrible consequences, others just teach us a lesson. But none of us have always made good judgements and sound decisions. So discussing the issue of a child in car alone is one thing (that might even make parents who choose to leave their children in a car think twice), and a "full on food fight slanging match" about the moral high ground is another that actualy serves no purpose.
No, I'm not apathetic and fearful. But once bitten, twice shy. In a previous life I tried. It didn't work and I came out of the whole sorry situation regretful and wary. I'll fight for what's right, but that's it.I can, believe it or not, try to understand your viewpoint based on the information you have given. But, I would still have no option in my mind but to contact the police. Rather the embarrasment of being wrong than a child coming to harm.
Lolabelle
17-Sep-08, 00:28
Kid's have died in the car in less time than that here, because of the heat, I know that isn't the case up your way, but still the parents do need a warning. I honestly don't know if I would have reported it or not, I haven't been in that situation. I may have hung around to keep an eye on the child until the parent came back and then had a quiet word and probably been abused....
Not too easy for Justine with her gazillion kids :Razz
Years ago I went into a shop and left my sleeping cousin (4) in the car with my younger sister (13). My sister got out and locked the car and the keys were still in the ignition, when we finally managed to wake my cousin she was disorientated and wouldn't open the door for us, the back window was down and crack and it was winter, so she wasn't in danger, but it took ages to convince her to open the door. A valuble lesson learnt at 17!
But there is the possibility that the parent didn't know that the child was alone, as I didn't, until I got back to the car and found my sister had left to find me.
oldmarine
17-Sep-08, 02:30
Just been doing our shopping at tesc this morning and noticed when we got there a child of about maybe 2 yrs old strapped into a car seat, in the back of the car outside tescos, in the mother and toddler section, Now we were in there about a good hour, and returning to the van noticed the same car with child alone still there.
Is this a normal practice for parents to leave a child alone in a vehicle, whilst they do their shopping.What happens if there was a fire or something else goes wrong. I dont agree with this and was wondering if anyone else disagrees and for other reasons.:mad:
Evidently there are no laws preventing that situation there. Here in HOT Arizona with too many deaths of tots like that, laws have been passed to prevent those occurences. Occasionally, I read this still happens. Parents are then prosecuted after the fact - often after a death.
Welcomefamily
17-Sep-08, 04:33
Yes its a pity as the law is very grey here including leaving kids in the house alone because we dont have them, however there are laws that cover child neglect or risk of it, that can cover them.
This is a classic discussion of public attitudes vs public behaviors, 'The shoulds' vs 'The woulds'.:lol: Some of more honest with themselves than others.
I am probably gonna be shot down in flames here....
I have left my 2 children in the car outside tescos.
One is 2 and she was sleeping the other was only 3months old and had her jabs that day in Thurso. I got home after the jabs only to find out (1/2 an hour after I needed it ) there was no calpol in the house so I nipped through to tescos (had to take the kids couldnt leave them home alone) when I got there they were both sleeping so I left them in a locked car and got the calpol and selfishly horror of all horrors got more milk (for tea as i reasoned it wouldbe a longnight) when I got back ..approx 10 mins later the baby had woken up and was screaming and as I was trying to leave someone was intent on giving me a lecture....when all I wanted to do was give her the much needed dose of calpol!
should I have woken the 2 of them up and had the pair of them crying round the store instead??
ps if Lauren is sleeping when I get home from town I leave her in the car until she wakes up because if I try to move her to her bed it never works and she gets cranky if she doesnt get her nap!
I will wager that at least half the folk jumping on the bandwagon here don't even have kids.
It's easy to say you would do this, that the next blah, blah, blah. This is a messageboard and bears no relation to real life.
Leaving kids in the car, especially if you have more than one, to nip in to a shop or to a bank machine for a few minutes is a perfectly acceptable practice.
Reading this you would think it was tantamount to child abuse.
I also have serious doubts that anyone would leave their kids for an hour as has been mentioned. Somehow I doubt the veracity of that particular piece of gossip.
My message to the do-gooders on this thread? Grow up and get a grip.
silverfox57
17-Sep-08, 10:21
think any sensible mother or father knows how to bring up there own children,as we have three children, who have all done well in life,and where not brought in this pc or nanny sate,or indeed big brother state telling us how to bring up own children,
see what i mean about being hijacked and slanging matches begin. Why cant you all just discuss something without accusing other orgers of sticking in their noses, not doing enough, doing too much, my god it was an observation that i made and noted, as some said someone could have been checking on the child, i have no right to make judgment on a persons decisions about how they raise their kids, just because i would not do it.
But lets be sure, next time i go anywhere and i see a child left alone for any length of time i will be sure to deal with it appropriately, lets just hope the child belongs to no orgers.Oh the shame of it.:eek:
[quote=Lolabelle;432883]
Not too easy for Justine with her gazillion kids :Razz
9 is a long way from a fictitious number.
and i would not leave one of them alone..its easier than you think if you know how to raise children:roll:
I am a helluva lot more concerned about do-gooders stalking the car parks of the town in an attempt to judge others as parents than I ever will be about leaving my kids in a locked car for five minutes.
Looks like the police are going to be busy. Busy wasting their time and taxpayers money that is :roll:.
I am a helluva lot more concerned about do-gooders stalking the car parks of the town in an attempt to judge others as parents than I ever will be about leaving my kids in a locked car for five minutes.
Looks like the police are going to be busy. Busy wasting their time and taxpayers money that is :roll:.
how is it stalking:confused
Stalking do-gooding busybodies?
If someone shows concern for a child left unattended in a car (or house for that matter) then they should contact the authorities.
If the child is sleeping how would the stalking do-gooding busybody not know if the child was actually still alive?
How long does it take for a child to choke on some object lying around in the car?
If the child is screaming and in appears to be in distress does the stalking do-gooding busybody walk away and do nothing? Maybe the child has been snatched?
How many times have cars been stolen with children left unattended in them?
If they call the police and the parent turns up then they can explain their reasons for acting in that way to the police. If the police feel it needs further investigation then child services can be contacted.
But to say that people should ignore situations like this is the reason that people walk away from an OAP getting robbed or someone lying in the gutter - this modern 'disease' of "it's got nothing to do with me".
Call the police next time - let them sort it out...
"How many times have cars been stolen with children left unattended in them?"
In Caithness - precisely none.
Dont let that get in the way of your rabid tabloid style rant though.
All hypothetical nonsense in my opinion, applied to innocent situations.
Stalking do-gooding busybodies?
If they call the police and the parent turns up then they can explain their reasons for acting in that way to the police. If the police feel it needs further investigation then child services can be contacted.
But to say that people should ignore situations like this is the reason that people walk away from an OAP getting robbed or someone lying in the gutter - this modern 'disease' of "it's got nothing to do with me".
Call the police next time - let them sort it out...
I agree with this. It has nothing to do with being "do-gooders" and a lot to do with being a decent human being.
Meh, Caithness is not immune from the problems which beset the rest of the UK - all hypothetical it may be, but sadly all it takes is one instance of a child dying in a car while it's parent/s decided to go shopping, for it to become an actual event.
You carry on walking around with your blinkers on....
I agree with Madpict,you just dont realise that it takes only a few seconds for something to go wrong,children could choke,have an accident,come out of the car into the path of another car or anything!It takes seconds for an electrical fault to turn into a serious fire and if they were locked in how would they get out?I know we live in a "safe" part of the country but there is always a risk that there are people out there that want to harm a child so what if they happened to be passing and saw a child left unattended in a car?Do you not think they would use this to their advantage?The possibilites are endless and the long and short of it is that as parents we have a duty to care for our children at all times,that means always having them in a safe place and I am sorry but in a car outside Tesco unattended is just not a safe place!x
Careful there Thumper - you may be accused of "rabid tabloid style ranting" ...
is that rabid or rabbit?;) x
Och Madpict you suprise me....its not like you not to be on the ball :) x
Sapphire2803
17-Sep-08, 12:20
I'm usually one of the first to complain about 'tabloid style ranting', but on this occasion I totally agree with the rabid rabbit :D
Lolabelle
17-Sep-08, 12:32
[quote=Lolabelle;432883]
Not too easy for Justine with her gazillion kids :Razz
9 is a long way from a fictitious number.
and i would not leave one of them alone..its easier than you think if you know how to raise children:roll:
Sorry Justine, I didn't mean that as an insult, I just didn't know the correct number, so made one up that was ficticious.
Oh and I don't have kids, I was just speaking from my own mistakes.
There seems to be two extremes going on here. I take the middle ground, obviously leaving a child unattended for an hour while you're in tescos is clearly is unacceptable, nipping into a shop for 5 minutes is fine depending on a common sense assessment of the circumstances. Life is a risk when all is said and done.
Maybe I just dont see it......maybe, as I suspect, it does not exist.
Let me make this clear:
I do not believe that anyone would leave a child outside Tesco for an hour. I just don't believe that - I don't think it's true to be perfectly frank. A form of fishing if you like.
And look at the number of replies, with inevitable conclusions jumped to.
All a bit too predictable for me.
The world is, by and large, a safe place, even for children would you believe. Nonsense like this will not convince me otherwise.
Yes the world is a dangerous place at times and at others it isnt,but how are we to know when a danger will be put infront of us?If we could know then the world would be a great place to live as none of us would have to be in a position where danger can happen!Now IF a child was left in a house alone for 5 minutes while Mum or dad went next door to see a neighbour and that house went on fire what would you say then?Most would say "I cant belive they left that child alone,how could they?" and would probably be saying that they should be prosecuted for it....what difference is there in leaving them in a car then?:confused x
see what i mean about being hijacked and slanging matches begin. Why cant you all just discuss something without accusing other orgers of sticking in their noses, not doing enough, doing too much, my god it was an observation that i made and noted, as some said someone could have been checking on the child, i have no right to make judgment on a persons decisions about how they raise their kids, just because i would not do it.
But lets be sure, next time i go anywhere and i see a child left alone for any length of time i will be sure to deal with it appropriately, lets just hope the child belongs to no orgers.Oh the shame of it.:eek:
Well what did you expect when you start a thread that you well know will descend into chaos?
Light the touchpaper and stand well back!!.:(
If it was "An observation" and you "have no right" to make judgement(your words) why post it on the org?
So i take it that you are now the self proclaimed child observationist for Caithness?
No-one is the perfect parent and it is pointless to look down ones nose at others and think that oneself is better. We are none of us without sin so its best to remember that before any of us try and dictate how to raise children.
making something up like this would be stupid, and i have never been one to lie.Make of it what you want,
to me it sounds like you dont think its true, for what reasons may i ask, i never leave my kids in the van even if its to pop into a shop, i take them out the van, get baby in pram and then do it all again to put them back.
Yes people do leave their kids in the cars in supermarkets.
prime example, a friend of mine was coming out of tescos when in came a young boy covered in blood, she ran up to him thinking the worst, asked what happened just to find out that he and his sister were left in the car and she'd hit him, causing a nose bleed..She went with the young boy to customer services who tracked down the mother.
It does happen :~(
I have never done this and never would due to the fact of many years ago reading a story about a child left in a car and parent locked doors and the car caught fire, the child had no way to escape, this has happened a few times. That story stuck with me for life.
I personally dont leave my kids in the car as my youngest is now 4 and has always came everywhere. But what I do does not mean that I can lecture anyone else. If someone wants to nip to a shop for 5 mins then thats their business not mine. Parenting is a learning process and each individual parent has their own virtues and standards, some dont smoke near the kids others may. Some let them stay up late others dont. None of us are fit to lecture to any other parent as at the end of the day what is all mothers say? All kids are INDIVIDUALS!!!!!
How long does it take to choke?
i dont think this is a case of lecturing anyone on peoples methods of parenting, as you say hotrod each child is an individual, but that has nothing to do with leaving small children alone, no matter what the circumstances. 1 minute, 5 minutes, 1 hours theres no excuse. In the home my chldren are in the room i am in, if i am cleaning and then they follow me around, annoying but safer.Youre right what we each do as a parent is down to us, but there has to be a line on whats good for your kids, whats safe for them, and then whats damn right stupid, and there are parents out there that have no idea, they do what easiest for them, not the child.
We all make mistakes in parenting, even me after all my experience, but it does not mean i would put my children in harms way just because it was easier to leave them in the van.God i dont even leave the teens in the van on their own, nothing to do with not trusting them, just know what can happen in a couple of minutes..Over protective parent. GUILTY all the way down the line.
i dont think this is a case of lecturing anyone on peoples methods of parenting, as you say hotrod each child is an individual, but that has nothing to do with leaving small children alone, no matter what the circumstances. 1 minute, 5 minutes, 1 hours theres no excuse. In the home my chldren are in the room i am in, if i am cleaning and then they follow me around, annoying but safer.Youre right what we each do as a parent is down to us, but there has to be a line on whats good for your kids, whats safe for them, and then whats damn right stupid, and there are parents out there that have no idea, they do what easiest for them, not the child.
We all make mistakes in parenting, even me after all my experience, but it does not mean i would put my children in harms way just because it was easier to leave them in the van.God i dont even leave the teens in the van on their own, nothing to do with not trusting them, just know what can happen in a couple of minutes..Over protective parent. GUILTY all the way down the line.i am with you all the way here justine, my god leaaving a child unattened really is asking for trouble, if you know you are going to be a while and find it to stressful to take a child with you, then do the sensible thing and find someone tol look after him/her at least they will be watched the whole time.
I guess with the amount of newcomers into Caithness, you could never be sure what you are dealing with so it's better to be safe than sorry is it not?
I guess with the amount of newcomers into Caithness, you could never be sure what you are dealing with so it's better to be safe than sorry is it not?
How many are we talking?
Mister Squiggle
17-Sep-08, 15:41
Just a couple of months back, my Mum was telling me that whilst my Dad waited in the car for her as she and her friends doddled around the local craft shop, a car next to him (with all the windows wound up, mind and it was SUMMER) had pulled up and the lass driving had disappeared into the shops, leaving a little girl of about 3 in the back seat, sleeping.
While Dad waited, the kiddie woke up, started to cry and then started to scream.
Dad, being a very elderly gentleman and not too fleet of foot or able to lift small children, called out for help. Out came about 4 shop assistants, and they got the child out. She was hot and heat-stressed and very frightened so my Dad and the assistant waited with her while a crowd of very angry shoppers went off looking for the mother.
Where was she found? In the cotton-pickin' hairdressers getting her highlights done! I know, it beggars belief.
My dad is pretty mild mannered but Mum swears she heard him yelling at the woman from inside the craft shop when the mother was hauled back to the car. Mum said "I never thought you Dad would use language like that!"
The result was that Dad was very upset, the police were called by a shop assistant to question the mother, but thankfully the little girl was OK.
We're not sure what the upshot was - probably a caution for the mother, possibly a charge of neglect but Mum (in her infinite wisdom) suggested she should just be locked in a hot car for an hour and see how she gets on.
How many are we talking?Not sure Rheghead, maybe you could look it up for me like a good chap?
Just a couple of months back, my Mum was telling me that whilst my Dad waited in the car for her as she and her friends doddled around the local craft shop, a car next to him (with all the windows wound up, mind and it was SUMMER) had pulled up and the lass driving had disappeared into the shops, leaving a little girl of about 3 in the back seat, sleeping.
While Dad waited, the kiddie woke up, started to cry and then started to scream.
Dad, being a very elderly gentleman and not too fleet of foot or able to lift small children, called out for help. Out came about 4 shop assistants, and they got the child out. She was hot and heat-stressed and very frightened so my Dad and the assistant waited with her while a crowd of very angry shoppers went off looking for the mother.
Where was she found? In the cotton-pickin' hairdressers getting her highlights done! I know, it beggars belief.
My dad is pretty mild mannered but Mum swears she heard him yelling at the woman from inside the craft shop when the mother was hauled back to the car. Mum said "I never thought you Dad would use language like that!"
The result was that Dad was very upset, the police were called by a shop assistant to question the mother, but thankfully the little girl was OK.
We're not sure what the upshot was - probably a caution for the mother, possibly a charge of neglect but Mum (in her infinite wisdom) suggested she should just be locked in a hot car for an hour and see how she gets on.
that is a disgusting story, thank god your dad was there. poor child, hope that the mother did face some sort of charge or a grilling from social work.
Not sure Rheghead, maybe you could look it up for me like a good chap?
I wouldn't know where to look but you seem know that there is some called 'the amount', usually that means the influx is raised higher than normal.
The fact that people are moving here is of no consequence, there are bad or stupid people everywhere.
The story of the woman getting highlights, personally I would have punched out her lights and left her in the hot car to recover. Poor bairn!
I guess with the amount of newcomers into Caithness, you could never be sure what you are dealing with so it's better to be safe than sorry is it not?
How long do you have to have lived here not to be classed as a newcomer?:eek:
I guess with the amount of newcomers into Caithness, you could never be sure what you are dealing with so it's better to be safe than sorry is it not?
Is a newcomer the same as an incomer?
3 generations :lol:
On your great grannies cousins boyfriends best mates side!! ;) (but that only counts on leap years!)if not then............?
then until everyone that remembers you moving here is dead :lol: but then maybe until their families have also died out so nobody will remember, then you are local :lol:
then until everyone that remembers you moving here is dead :lol: but then maybe until their families have also died out so nobody will remember, then you are local :lol:
This is a local shop for local people we'll have no trouble here!!!!, Tubbs, Tubbs where are you Tubbs ?????
But where do you draw the line at leaving kids on their own? While I would personally never leave my children in the car alone for that length of time I have left them in the car to pop into the local shop for milk etc. I'm making no judgement on the person who left their child outside Tesco as I don't have all the facts. If I'm in the kitchen making the dinner and my kids want to play in their bedrooms or the living room, I allow them to, am I guilty of leaving my children unattended? In short yes. Justine you state that is no excuse to leave children unattended for 1 minute, 5 minutes, 1 hour - does that mean that you believe that a mother or father while in charge of their children cannot go to the toilet without dragging their brood in with them? How does that work when they are sleeping? Do you put them all in 1 room? Do you and your husband/partner take shifts in watching them through the night? I'm sorry if this comes across as sarky but to state that a child cannot be left on their own for 1 minute in my opinion is a bit extreme. If that's the case mybe I should save anybody else the bother and just report myself to the Police.
I guess with the amount of newcomers into Caithness, you could never be sure what you are dealing with so it's better to be safe than sorry is it not?
How many are we talking?
Maybe you could start here:
http://www.caithness.org/links/population.htm
But what've newcomers got to do with leaving kids in cars?
3 generations :lol:
It's a lot more complicated than that. I heard someone who had lived in one village all their lives refer to someone else as an incomer because they had moved in from a village a few miles away. Have no idea what that has to do with this thread but thought I should share it anyway :)
This is Caithness.org at it's very hysterical worst.
Nobody would ever dispute that leaving kids in a hot car in the height of summer is damned irresponsible. Similarly leaving kids for any length of time in a vehicle is wrong as everyone would agree.
Leaving them for a few minutes - not a problem in my eyes.
Sometimes I wonder if I live in the same county as some of the posters on here. Some people seem determined to cast Caithness and it's citizens in a bad light.
Must we all live by these paranoid measures? I think not.
Must we all live by these paranoid measures? I think not.
Just because your paranoid doesnt mean their not out to get you!!!! ;)
I wouldn't know where to look but you seem know that there is some called 'the amount', usually that means the influx is raised higher than normal.The amount means higher than normal? I thought it meant quantity?
The fact that people are moving here is of no consequence, there are bad or stupid people everywhere.
The story of the woman getting highlights, personally I would have punched out her lights and left her in the hot car to recover. Poor bairn!Aye there are good and bad everywhere but the good and the bad used to be a known quantity.
How long do you have to have lived here not to be classed as a newcomer?:eek:Until you are deemed to be an incomer.
3 generations :lol:That's a pretty conservative estimate.[lol]
Is a newcomer the same as an incomer?Take a wild guess, I dare you.
Maybe you could start here:
http://www.caithness.org/links/population.htm
But what've newcomers got to do with leaving kids in cars?You don't know who is going about nowadays, so many new people and not enough trust in them, they haven't earned it.
[quote=3of8
but what've newcomers got to do with leaving kids in cars?[/quote]
exactly.;)
How long do you have to have lived here not to be classed as a newcomer?:eek:
Exactly! ;)
But where do you draw the line at leaving kids on their own? While I would personally never leave my children in the car alone for that length of time I have left them in the car to pop into the local shop for milk etc. I'm making no judgement on the person who left their child outside Tesco as I don't have all the facts. If I'm in the kitchen making the dinner and my kids want to play in their bedrooms or the living room, I allow them to, am I guilty of leaving my children unattended? In short yes. Justine you state that is no excuse to leave children unattended for 1 minute, 5 minutes, 1 hour - does that mean that you believe that a mother or father while in charge of their children cannot go to the toilet without dragging their brood in with them? How does that work when they are sleeping? Do you put them all in 1 room? Do you and your husband/partner take shifts in watching them through the night? I'm sorry if this comes across as sarky but to state that a child cannot be left on their own for 1 minute in my opinion is a bit extreme. If that's the case mybe I should save anybody else the bother and just report myself to the Police.
Only if you feel guilty about it.
Just been doing our shopping at tesc this morning and noticed when we got there a child of about maybe 2 yrs old strapped into a car seat, in the back of the car outside tescos, in the mother and toddler section, Now we were in there about a good hour, and returning to the van noticed the same car with child alone still there.
Is this a normal practice for parents to leave a child alone in a vehicle, whilst they do their shopping.What happens if there was a fire or something else goes wrong. I dont agree with this and was wondering if anyone else disagrees and for other reasons.:mad:
I would never leave my child alonein a car you never no what could happen in my opinion its a very stupid thing to do[evil]
Only if you feel guilty about it.
I have nothing to feel guilty about
Have 2 say i agree with Mama 2. As a mum to a 9 month old girl it is impossible to watch them all the time you have 2 do things like make the t put the washin on have a shower etc etc etc so im afraid my girl gets 2 amuse herself for short whiles with me in close proximity. But with the best will in the world accidents can and do happen even when parents are around. Im not going to comment on the Tesco incident as i don't have all the facts and it is just heresay and the person involved has been hung drawn and quartered.
Have 2 confess i'm also guilty of running in2 the shop for papers or a pint of milk or parking the buggy outside a shop so does that me a bad mum definately not. I do my best and make the decisions that i think and feel 2 be right at the time. Im sure i have made mistakes and im sure i will make many more its all part of being a parent. And i'd like for all the folks that are judging on here to stop and think because im pretty sure they have probably made mistakes where there children are concerned 2???
Maybe you could start here:
http://www.caithness.org/links/population.htm
But what've newcomers got to do with leaving kids in cars?
So quite clearly, there isn't much of an amount coming to the county.
i dont agree with that AT ALL... but can i ask..
how many parents will leave their babies outside a shop in their prams in caithness.
i remember when i moved down to glasgow, i automatically went to leave the pram outside our local shop and my mothet in law was appalled!
having lived here for years, its something i would never do now... and i wont do it in Thurso now either..
Your post made me smile! As a careing parent of six I have been appauld by what goes on with regard to children being left, weather it be in cars or houses (usually while the parents are at the pub!) and yes I do have all the facts.
However I have voiced my conserns about child safety to both the local school and the police, only to be met with total indifference. I now 'mind my own business' and will never bother the police about something as trivial as child safety.
Just been doing our shopping at tesc this morning and noticed when we got there a child of about maybe 2 yrs old strapped into a car seat, in the back of the car outside tescos, in the mother and toddler section, Now we were in there about a good hour, and returning to the van noticed the same car with child alone still there.
Is this a normal practice for parents to leave a child alone in a vehicle, whilst they do their shopping.What happens if there was a fire or something else goes wrong. I dont agree with this and was wondering if anyone else disagrees and for other reasons.:mad:
This is a clear case of not knowing the real facts. This two year old is subject to an ASBO banning him from entering the shop. He has repeatedly flaunted this preventative measure restricting his access, much to his mums disaproval.
the only way for the parent to avoid a jail sentence for her son was to keep him strapped in the chair. she had to way up the risk of him either getting to hot in the car or choking on a powdered travel sweet. Lucky for her, baby "fingers" had previously stole after sun and gaviscon from the toiletries aisle so was well prepared for both eventualities.
hopefully this has cleared this matter up and will end the dispute that rages on.
As a newcomer and an employee of Tesco, I had real concern about a woman & her friends who left her young child strapped in their pushchair sleeping at the front door and went to do her shopping. The child was asleep at the time but woke up within a few minutes. After 10 minutes the mother had not returned so I moved the child in her buggy to the Customer Service Desk so at least she could be kept an eye on, also alerting the staff near by to let the mother know if I was not around, when she returned. No-one knew the child so we were unable to trace the mother. After over an hour the mother had finished her shopping, (the child by this time was getting distressed) she then went to the front door to retrieve her child who had previously been moved to a place of safety. Another member of staff came and told her where her child was and the mother freaked saying that she thought her X had come and taken the child and that no-one should have moved her baby. Unfortunately I was not there when the mother returned. Now to me, this child was in more risk than others so why was she left? If I felt that in anyway my child would be at risk from being "taken by my X" I would not leave my child unattended in a busy supermartket or anywhere else for that matter. She was in a buggy so could have been taken around the shops with her as she had friends with her who could have pushed either a trolley or the buggy! I know that things are not like they are in the larger city's but this was a child apparently already at risk!
It astounds me the amount of times that staff reunite upset children in Tesco's with their parents to find out that half the time they didn't even know that they were lost!
Sad to say that maybe it would take something tragic to happen up here to make everyone realise how easy and quickly it is for such tradegy to happen.
As a newcomer and an employee of Tesco, I had real concern about a woman & her friends who left her young child strapped in their pushchair sleeping at the front door and went to do her shopping. The child was asleep at the time but woke up within a few minutes. After 10 minutes the mother had not returned so I moved the child in her buggy to the Customer Service Desk so at least she could be kept an eye on, also alerting the staff near by to let the mother know if I was not around, when she returned. No-one knew the child so we were unable to trace the mother. After over an hour the mother had finished her shopping, (the child by this time was getting distressed) she then went to the front door to retrieve her child who had previously been moved to a place of safety. Another member of staff came and told her where her child was and the mother freaked saying that she thought her X had come and taken the child and that no-one should have moved her baby. Unfortunately I was not there when the mother returned. Now to me, this child was in more risk than others so why was she left? If I felt that in anyway my child would be at risk from being "taken by my X" I would not leave my child unattended in a busy supermartket or anywhere else for that matter. She was in a buggy so could have been taken around the shops with her as she had friends with her who could have pushed either a trolley or the buggy! I know that things are not like they are in the larger city's but this was a child apparently already at risk!
It astounds me the amount of times that staff reunite upset children in Tesco's with their parents to find out that half the time they didn't even know that they were lost!
Sad to say that maybe it would take something tragic to happen up here to make everyone realise how easy and quickly it is for such tradegy to happen.
unfortunatly some people just to have any clue when it come to their kids safety, no matter where you live it just takes 1 person to take the child.
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