Schindler's List

[daviddd]

Sorry to be unfestive but......

We just watched this on video, first time I'd seen it all the way through. We found it very upsetting, how could anyone treat so many people - the Jews - so badly for so long? Kind of makes you ashamed of what humans can do....
As I understand it the Allies, including Britain, didn't address the issue either - according to the recent Holocaust series the RAF could have bombed the railway lines to Belsen and Auchwitz but didn't.

[landmarker]

Sorry to be unfestive but......

We just watched this on video, first time I'd seen it all the way through. We found it very upsetting, how could anyone treat so many people - the Jews - so badly for so long? Kind of makes you ashamed of what humans can do....
As I understand it the Allies, including Britain, didn't address the issue either - according to the recent Holocaust series the RAF could have bombed the railway lines to Belsen and Auchwitz but didn't.

It's a challenging film. Hard to describe it as good, or similar becaue of the subject matter.

The Nazi treatment of the jews is all bound up in the complexities of their rise to power.

As for allied intervention it is hard to believe that nothing constructive could be done. More likely priorities were different. I wouldn't discount other motives for non-intervention. Political expediency being what it is.

I agree, some of the individuals depicted in the movie were sub-human in their cruelty, and totally devoid of any kind of empathy or compassion.

I'm not a fan of war but if ever one was justified it was surely the 1939 - 45 conflict. We ocassionally need productions like this to remind us of this salient fact.

Alan

[Rheghead]

I am not a military historian by any means but there may have been very good reasons for why they didn't bomb the railways near Belsen/Auschwitz.

The railways may have been too far away to 'safely' bomb without fighter escort or they were concentrating too much on preparations for D-Day. There were very few reliable reports of those atrocities so they probably put bombing Auschwitz communications as a low priority considering the distances involved. In any case, would a few mangled railway tracks have prevented any deaths in the camps? I doubt it, the Nazis were too Hellbent on mass murder to let a minor matter of damaged tracks to get in their way.
Also the camps were not a military target, they were a humanitarian target, so whether it would make sense militarily to divert weapons on an other errand during war is highly debatable. It was just the decision made at the time, things are always seen different retrospectively.

There may have been a level of anti-semitism in the British government but whether it affected the strategy of the War is another matter. I would imagine that present day historians would love to provide evidence of that even if it is just to sell a controversial book.

If I am way off the mark then I would appreciate a different opinion.

[daviddd]

I am not a military historian by any means but there may have been very good reasons for why they didn't bomb the railways near Belsen/Auschwitz.

The railways may have been too far away to 'safely' bomb without fighter escort or they were concentrating too much on preparations for D-Day. There were very few reliable reports of those atrocities so they probably put bombing Auschwitz communications as a low priority considering the distances involved. In any case, would a few mangled railway tracks have prevented any deaths in the camps? I doubt it, the Nazis were too Hellbent on mass murder to let a minor matter of damaged tracks to get in their way.
Also the camps were not a military target, they were a humanitarian target, so whether it would make sense militarily to divert weapons on an other errand during war is highly debatable. It was just the decision made at the time, things are always seen different retrospectively.
There may have been a level of anti-semitism in the British government but whether it affected the strategy of the War is another matter. I would imagine that present day historians would love to provide evidence of that even if it is just to sell a controversial book.

If I am way off the mark then I would appreciate a different opinion. I can see some essence of reality in what you say Rheghead re military tactics etc., what gets to me is the fact that such a massive loss of life reacted such lack of empathy by British / world leaders at the time (and in some measure possibly today as well). The fact that they were Jews has a lot to do with it I suppose - they have attracted hatred for millenia for no reason that seems vividly apparent to me - in the 17th century 100's of thousands were slaughtered in eastern Europe / Ukraine too. I'm not a jew btw as if it matters.

[Steely Eyed Tortoise]

There was a Book about Schindler called "Shindlers Ark" .. cant recall the author .. good read, although the subject matter is quite dark.

While in the Forces I visited Auschwitz and wished I hadnt .. when I was there the visitors centre consisted of large windows and behind them one was full of victims suitcases .. one of spectacles .. one of childrens toys etc.

I still shiver at the thought.

[figgy]

I have seen the film, too, and it is very harrowing. It really is unbelievable just how cruel and vile humans can be, especially when it comes to religious or cultural hatred.

The main theme tune is extremely moving and haunting - I have the music and I play it on the violin. John Williams is a true genius with his film compositions.

[JAWS]

Schindler’s list is one of those films I was only able to watch at a time when I felt I was in the right frame of mind both morally and emotionally. It is certainly not a film I would watch just for something to do in an evening.
Stalin said something to the effect that “one death is a tragedy, a million deaths are just a statistic”.
My one abiding memory is the little girl in the red coat. She reminded me that everyone of the mass of victims was an individual.
What worries me more than anything is that nagging thought at the back of my mind asking “What would I have done?” Would I have been brave enough to fight against such a ruthless system or would I too “just have obeyed orders”.
It’s one of those moral dilemmas I never wish to have to find the answer to.
With respect to what the Allies knew and what action they should have taken, all I can say to that is that people who have the benefit of hindsight can make wonderful predictions.
The film itself carries a very strong message made all the more powerful because it treats the horror of the situation in such an understated way. I don’t think it would have been half as powerful had it gone for the “shock-horror” effect.

[Rheghead]

what gets to me is the fact that such a massive loss of life reacted such lack of empathy by British / world leaders at the time.

I know that the Allies knew of the existence of the anti-semitism in Nazi and knew of murders going on, one thing that took everybody's surprise was the scale of murder. It is beyond belief that it happened but it did. Still, could the allies have done anything about it? Precision bombing wasn't exactly mainstream technology at the time.

In a sense the victor's of WW1 are partly responsible for leaving the Jews as Hitler's scapegoat for Germany's troubles, but not directly, we just set the scene for it. If we fought the battle of hearts and minds in 1918 as well as in 1945 then things may have been avoided. Should we have guilt? Obviously no. The guilt will forever be on the concience of the German people.

[badger]

It's very easy to criticise the way people acted in the past by judging them on how things are today. War now is played out in our houses - I watched in horror as night after night, day after day, we bombed Iraq and every detail was commented on by reporters in the middle of it all. That simply didn't happen in the two great wars of the last century, not even the second one. Soldiers who finally liberated the camps were completely shocked by what they found and I suspect that the rumours which leaked out would probably simply not have been believed. If pictures of the camps had been appearing in our cinemas (no tv then!) or reported on the radio, maybe things would have been different. Or maybe we were already fighting on so many fronts our leaders were just doing their best in the circumstances. So many decisions taken can be seen as wrong in hindsight but that will always be the case. Apparently anti-Semitism is currently on the rise all over the world, although not in Britain which is one of the safest places for Jews, and this is mainly the result of the Palestine issue. We can blame the Israeli government but what are we doing now about the persecution of innocent Jews elsewhere? Nothing.

[lorraine_2406]

where i live in germany its called fallingbostel and as you dirve to go into our camp we drive over the train tracks where part of the film was filmed also we live 30mins away from belsen we have been there a few times its very sad

[daviddd]

I can see that media communications during the wars did not allow much insight into what was happening to the Jews in Europe, but even now everyone knows what happened there is lack of sympathy for them in many quarters. I count myself very lucky to have been born when and where I was, as I have not been subject to any such prejudice.

[golach]

Schindler’s list is one of those films I was only able to watch at a time when I felt I was in the right frame of mind both morally and emotionally. It is certainly not a film I would watch just for something to do in an evening.
Stalin said something to the effect that “one death is a tragedy, a million deaths are just a statistic”.
My one abiding memory is the little girl in the red coat. She reminded me that everyone of the mass of victims was an individual.
What worries me more than anything is that nagging thought at the back of my mind asking “What would I have done?” Would I have been brave enough to fight against such a ruthless system or would I too “just have obeyed orders”.
It’s one of those moral dilemmas I never wish to have to find the answer to.
With respect to what the Allies knew and what action they should have taken, all I can say to that is that people who have the benefit of hindsight can make wonderful predictions.
The film itself carries a very strong message made all the more powerful because it treats the horror of the situation in such an understated way. I don’t think it would have been half as powerful had it gone for the “shock-horror” effect.
I fully agree with you on this Film, it was when I saw it a shocker to me and my wife we sat mesmerised and never spoke a word to each other whilst watching it. The Script and Music were first class. But to say I enjoyed it....well that is another point!!!!!!!!!

[crayola]

Apparently anti-Semitism is currently on the rise all over the world, although not in Britain which is one of the safest places for Jews, and this is mainly the result of the Palestine issue. We can blame the Israeli government but what are we doing now about the persecution of innocent Jews elsewhere? Nothing.
Hey badger, is anti-semitism really on the rise all over the world? Anti-Zionism may be on the rise, but anti-semitism? Do you have any references for this? A few links would suffice.


We can blame the Israeli government but what are we doing now about the persecution of innocent Jews elsewhere? Nothing.Could you elaborate? Are you talking about the Middle East or elsewhere? Russia perhaps?

I'm not disputing your claims btw, I'd just like to see some facts and figures.

As far as I'm aware, Rheghead is right about the Allies' ignorance of the scale of the atrocities against the Jews (and many other groups that the Nazis had it in for), but I think a consistent picture was beginning to emerge towards the end of the war.