View Full Version : "Race" for the White House
Is there anyone else in the race for the Presidency of the United States of America? I ask because the only news I see on this subject involves Obama, the only speeches I see broadcast are by Obama or supporters of Obama. Anyone in the USA care to give their perspective on this? I regularly skip between Sky News, Fox News, Al Jazeera International and BBC World – but have seen nothing of the McCain campaign. If it were the other way around I am sure there are those who would be shouting about discrimination.
Melancholy Man
29-Aug-08, 10:50
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but surely Fox is Republican leaning?
Personally, I think Obama would be a dreadful Prez, and McCain less so. Although the presence of Biden has made me more comfortable with the Democrats.
Would this be the same fox news that tried to do a hatchet Job on Obama?
Fox News/Sky News they are basically the same - all I am saying is that I have not seen a speech or heard anything from McCain, and I am sure that he has a campaign.
Melancholy Man
29-Aug-08, 11:22
Having seen American broadcasts of Fox (which have to be to be believed), I assume there's a watered-down tranmission for international consumption, just as al-Jaz tones down its rhetoric in English.
Pro-McCain coverage is going on where it matters; American voters. Whomever wins, I have a feeling is going to be a one-term President.
Is there anyone else in the race for the Presidency of the United States of America? I ask because the only news I see on this subject involves Obama, the only speeches I see broadcast are by Obama or supporters of Obama. Anyone in the USA care to give their perspective on this? I regularly skip between Sky News, Fox News, Al Jazeera International and BBC World – but have seen nothing of the McCain campaign. If it were the other way around I am sure there are those who would be shouting about discrimination.
Scotsboy, I'm not American and I pretty much stick to BBC and CNN news and Justin Webb (latter obviously very pro-Obama), but you're right - it's all Obama. When I did a search for McCain, I had trouble spelling his name ........... which tells me a great deal.
I've not listened to last night's speech, not having 45 minutes to spare right now, but having trawled the US news just now, it looks like he's pulled it off, inspite of the "Temple of the Anointed One" background and doing it on the anniversary of Dr MLK Jr's "I Have a Dream." I don't think he's playing the race card - only an idiot would think that would work. He's playing the youth and JFK cards because McCain's biggest bugbear is his age. If he's elected without having to play a religion card my opinion of the US will rise considerably.
What I do get (unfortunately) is emails from the States that slag Obama off very very viciously. I bin them but wish I'd kept the latest for you so you can see McCain supporters are alive and well. Only thing I can remember skimming on this last was that Obama's not even really black but Middle Eastern, his ancestors were slave-owners bla bla bla, Muslims will take over US if he gets in, Christians should pray for rain at democratic nomination. Real crackpot stuff.
Obama's made a very wise move choosing Biden. We'll hear more of McCain when he announces his running mate etc.
Melancholy Man
29-Aug-08, 11:41
Obama's made a very wise move choosing Biden.
I laughed when BBC News 24 described Biden as "critical of the Iraq war". Let's forget the fact it's over, Biden in fact supported it and has a son about to be posted there. But don't let that get in the way of a steely attempt to deny reality.
Whomever wins, I have a feeling is going to be a one-term President.
Agree. And I have a feeling we'll be seeing more of Mrs. Clinton in 2012.
Agree. And I have a feeling we'll be seeing more of Mrs. Clinton in 2012.
God I hope not. Has Monica got a brother?:lol:
Melancholy Man
29-Aug-08, 11:54
Agree. And I have a feeling we'll be seeing more of Mrs. Clinton in 2012.
If McCain wins. I can't think of more than one instance of an incumbent declining/loosing the nomination. With the general air even now, the cries of "racism" would become deafening with any suggestion that Obama step down.
Personally, my dream ticket would be Biden and Petreus, although runing against each other would be delicious.
If McCain wins. I can't think of more than one instance of an incumbent declining/loosing the nomination. With the general air even now, the cries of "racism" would become deafening with any suggestion that Obama step down.
Personally, my dream ticket would be Biden and Petreus, although runing against each other would be delicious.
Why did Petreus call Biden a bead rattler?
Melancholy Man
29-Aug-08, 12:01
I'm fairly sure there should be comma there, Scotsboy. Also, less about McCain's age. His mother's sharp as a tack.
Nah, no comma, but my grammar goes into lazy mode on messageboards. I think it should have read:
Why? Did Petreus call Biden a bead rattler?
If McCain wins.
Sorry - that's what I meant.
I Think if Obama wins, it'll will be great for the World. he's a breath of fresh air through american politics. He's an excellent speaker and seems to have an audience in the palm of his hand. The only problem would be America's weird and wonderful white supremicists(who are still holed out in the mountains awaiting "the war"). They can have a big influence, just look at the numpties who were planning to assisinate him!. There must be trailer parks throughout the country with duke, luke and little missie may worrying about "that there black man ruling our country",as they cant tell the difference between OSAMA and OBAMA!! With people like them making a sizable portion of the electorate, he needs alot of support, but he seems to be getting it, I for one hope he does.
Melancholy Man
29-Aug-08, 13:35
He's an excellent speaker and seems to have an audience in the palm of his hand.
Thank, alas, is it, and does not negate his casual acquaintence with the truth, complete lack of any experience in executive power (even McCain, hardly inspiring, has over 25 years at Capitol level) and, to name but one skeleton in the closet, a race-baiting pastor who, had he been McCain's confident, would have sunk him.
In the words of Biden, the US Presidency does not lend itself to on-the-job training.
Thank, alas, is it, and does not negate his casual acquaintence with the truth, complete lack of any experience in executive power (even McCain, hardly inspiring, has over 25 years at Capitol level) and, to name but one skeleton in the closet, a race-baiting pastor who, had he been McCain's confident, would have sunk him.
In the words of Biden, the US Presidency does not lend itself to on-the-job training.
Still like him and think he's good for the world and has more potential than McCain!
IMHO, Obama has charisma coming out of every pore and has the media eating out of his hand, but he has very little substance beyond that. Ms Clinton might not have the same charisma but she does have the substance. What does this say about Americans who want a figurehead with no back up plan.
With only the media to inform me I know almost nothing about McCain but he does appear to be the all American white boy, the type who normally gets into the white house. Re his politics or anything about him, I know practically nothing.
I personally would like a black president if only to wind up the folks in the deep south. They will be spitting feathers if it actually happens.
Agree. And I have a feeling we'll be seeing more of Mrs. Clinton in 2012.
Will she be in the Olympics too? [lol]
Melancholy Man
29-Aug-08, 18:55
Still like him and think he's good for the world and has more potential than McCain!
That's funny, because I think he's a vacuous media creation whose perception of himself and his supporters of him is best summed-up by the Obama Temple and who, if elected, would prove himself to be the President which Kennedy would have been had he not been whacked. And that ain't a compliment.
What does this say about Americans who want a figurehead with no back up plan.
Which is what McCain appears to have done by appointing the ex-Python as his Veep. Love BBC News 24 first impressions: she has a son about to serve in Iraq. Don't recall that being emphasised about Biden.
I personally would like a black president if only to wind up the folks in the deep south. They will be spitting feathers if it actually happens.I've always got the impression that inter-marriage in Southern states was much more fluid than the prim and proper North, especially rural areas. It was hardly rosy for poor whites (not least because, antebellum, there was at least a supposed... and often enacted... duty of food and board, whilst freemen, such as Irish who'd fled the Famine were on their own).
The first two black US Senators represented Mississippi during the early Reconstruction for the Republicans. The first popular vote of one came almost 100 years later, albeit Massachuetts but still Republican (this was before the two parties went topsy-turvy).
Only one other individual to serve as Senator and to be described as being descended from slaves (although many will have served). Similar patterns exists for Congressmen. The first were during the Reconstruction, and all Republican. It took 60 years before the Democrats and Northern states started electing them, and then not with sufficient keen-ness to suggest whites were voting themselves.
The first state governor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Wilder) defined as African American was, again, a Southern state, in 1989. But, c'mon, depending on the light he looks like McCain!
I know almost nothing about McCain but he does appear to be the all American white boy, the type who normally gets into the white house.
That ain't fair. He's got a brother (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uselection2008/barackobama/2590614/Barack-Obamas-lost-brother-found-in-Kenya.html) who lives on a dollar a day.
IMHO, Obama has charisma coming out of every pore and has the media eating out of his hand, but he has very little substance beyond that. Ms Clinton might not have the same charisma but she does have the substance. What does this say about Americans who want a figurehead with no back up plan.
With only the media to inform me I know almost nothing about McCain but he does appear to be the all American white boy, the type who normally gets into the white house. Re his politics or anything about him, I know practically nothing.
I personally would like a black president if only to wind up the folks in the deep south. They will be spitting feathers if it actually happens.What makes me laugh a wry laugh is when I read about Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings.
Whitewater
29-Aug-08, 22:15
I don't think Obama will ever get into the Whitehouse, one of the rednecks from the southern states will have a bullet through his brain before that happens. But I hope I'm wrong.
I don't think Obama will ever get into the Whitehouse, one of the rednecks from the southern states will have a bullet through his brain before that happens. But I hope I'm wrong.The guy is going all the way, all power to him. He can't be any worse than the current incumbent. I reckon everyone in the world should get a vote on the next president. That country affects the whole world, its only right that we should get a vote.
Melancholy Man
29-Aug-08, 22:34
What makes me laugh a wry laugh is when I read about Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings.
Certainly for white-supremacists or neo-Confederates nowadays, but for him it was part of the times. He'd been born into high colonial society and aristrocracy when a majority of the white inhabitants of the colonies were also descended from chattel slaves (from the 1650s there was a report of a Angolan owning land tilled by arrivals from England). He was expected to be kind and generous to his slaves and freemen on his land, set against times, he was.
I'm not saying it was right, I'm just saying it was.
Closer to today, there was Strom Thurmond and Sally Butler.
teenybash
29-Aug-08, 22:37
I think Barak Obama is only revealing what he wants the world to see....at the moment.......an aura of refreshing gentleness, tolerance, a true listening ear and a clearly excellent orator. I believe he will be the next President of the USA and he will be a formidable force to be reckoned with.
Quite unlike Mr Bush who the world sees as a power hungry war monger, Obama will use his powerful position on the world stage to bring about a new era in world politics, injecting them with sanity and calm.
He reminds me of a younger Nelson Mandela, who tells it like it is with wonderful charisma................... I think Mr Obama is of the same mould.
Melancholy Man
29-Aug-08, 23:01
Quite unlike Mr Bush who the world sees as a power hungry war mongerAt least one caveat there is true, but recall that for the first half year of his presidancy, Bush was well on the way to becoming the most isolationist President since the 1920s. Something happened to alter this.
Further to Jefferson/Hemmings, the power dynamic was unremarkable, and is one which transcends race and class. ;)
What is less usual was the former slave, Benjamin Banneker - who didn't reproduce the plans for DC from memory, and didn't construct the first clock in the Colonies, but was still amazing - was the grandson of an Englishwoman, who'd married one of her slaves.
He was a contemporary of Jefferson, and may have helped him appreciate the intellectual equality with blacks more. The letter he wrote him:
Sir, how pitiable is it to reflect, that although you were so fully convinced of the benevolence of the Father of Mankind, and of his equal and impartial distribution of these rights and privileges, which he hath conferred upon them, that you should at the same time counteract his mercies, in detaining by fraud and violence so numerous a part of my brethren, under groaning captivity and cruel oppression, that you should at the same time be found guilty of that most criminal act, which you professedly detested in others, with respect to yourselves.
At least one caveat there is true, but recall that for the first half year of his presidancy, Bush was well on the way to becoming the most isolationist President since the 1920s. Something happened to alter this.
Further to Jefferson/Hemmings, the power dynamic was unremarkable, and is one which transcends race and class. ;)
What is less usual was the former slave, Benjamin Banneker - who didn't reproduce the plans for DC from memory, and didn't construct the first clock in the Colonies, but was still amazing - was the grandson of an Englishwoman, who'd married one of her slaves.
He was a contemporary of Jefferson, and may have helped him appreciate the intellectual equality with blacks more. The letter he wrote him:The power of lust knows no racial boundaries.
Melancholy Man
29-Aug-08, 23:08
Mmmmm... Freema Agyeman.
DeHaviLand
29-Aug-08, 23:09
I Think if Obama wins, it'll will be great for the World. he's a breath of fresh air through american politics. He's an excellent speaker and seems to have an audience in the palm of his hand. The only problem would be America's weird and wonderful white supremicists(who are still holed out in the mountains awaiting "the war"). They can have a big influence, just look at the numpties who were planning to assisinate him!. There must be trailer parks throughout the country with duke, luke and little missie may worrying about "that there black man ruling our country",as they cant tell the difference between OSAMA and OBAMA!! With people like them making a sizable portion of the electorate, he needs alot of support, but he seems to be getting it, I for one hope he does.
I just cant shake the feeling that he may just be the " Antichrist". Everytime I see him, scenes from ' The Omen' run through my mind!:confused
Mmmmm... Freema Agyeman.Aye, she'd do for me to.:lol:
Melancholy Man
29-Aug-08, 23:18
Failing that, Amara Karan.
Welcomefamily
30-Aug-08, 00:26
There no accounting for taste ;)
The guy is going all the way, all power to him. He can't be any worse than the current incumbent.
How right you are. Hope Whitewater is wrong about his chances of getting there without bullets.
I reckon everyone in the world should get a vote on the next president. That country affects the whole world, its only right that we should get a vote.
Too true. But by these standards, could we please get rid of Putin?
Welcomefamily
30-Aug-08, 00:48
[quote=Tilter;425122]How right you are. Hope Whitewater is wrong about his chances of getting there without bullets.
So do I, he is a breath of fresh air.
Obama's made a very wise move choosing Biden. We'll hear more of McCain when he announces his running mate etc.
I agree, and I'm far more impressed with Obama, than I am with McCain. The latter has just picked a running mate - an attractive, much younger female, who is a former beauty queen. Problem is, she's relatively unknown in US politics.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7588435.stm
As for the news over here - I would not recommend Fox News. It's extremely biased! You're far better off watching BBC or CNN.
Margaret M.
30-Aug-08, 14:49
Obama is intelligent, articulate and can inspire the open minded. I think he will be able to mend the world fences broken by Bush, if given the chance. He has chosen a runnning mate who would make a capable President, if need be. I have yet to hear McSame give a decent speech -- he even has difficulty when he is reading it from the teleprompter. McSame's pick for VP is puzzling and I think I would be troubled if she ever had to step in as President. She has been the mayor of an Alaska town smaller than Wick and has been Governor for only two years. It is much easier to shine in a position when dealing with reasonable people like the residents/elected officials of the state of Alaska versus the more demanding of New York or Washington.
I get so tired of the ignoramuses who will not vote for Obama simply because of his skin colour and of the emails that are circulated about him that contain nothing but lies.
Bottom line is either ticket has to be an improvement over Bush/Cheney.
percy toboggan
30-Aug-08, 16:40
I personally would like a black president if only to wind up the folks in the deep south. They will be spitting feathers if it actually happens.
I think a tiny percentage will be checking their high velocity weapons and figuring out how to kill the first black President. This won't happen for a while because Obama will lose. Anyway, he's not black.
A Hispanic , and a woman will be elected to the office long before any black candidate.
I think a tiny percentage will be checking their high velocity weapons and figuring out how to kill the first black President. This won't happen for a while because Obama will lose. Anyway, he's not black.
A Hispanic , and a woman will be elected to the office long before any black candidate.
Hope they dont shoot him, but then again they shot their first Catholic president! (and no it wasnt me ;))
percy toboggan
31-Aug-08, 12:19
I'd like to emphasise I have no wish to see Obama shot.
I think his campaign already is though, given the weasel words of the Clintons
(more what they didn't say) and the fact that there is now a woman on the Republican ticket...pro-life...mother of several...telegenic...etc.etc..
the fact that there is now a woman on the Republican ticket...pro-life...mother of several...telegenic...etc.etc..
Yeah - pro-life, pro-guns etc. - that's only a very vocal minority of Americans, I'd like to think. But surely voters will have to think about whether, as Vice Pres, she could actually run the country if she had to and, given McCain's age, she may have to if only for short periods. I'd put my money on Biden over Palin any day. Except I think Biden was pro-Iraq war - I don't know how Obama got round that one.
Obama is intelligent, articulate and can inspire the open minded. I think he will be able to mend the world fences broken by Bush, if given the chance. He has chosen a runnning mate who would make a capable President, if need be. I have yet to hear McSame give a decent speech -- he even has difficulty when he is reading it from the teleprompter. McSame's pick for VP is puzzling and I think I would be troubled if she ever had to step in as President. She has been the mayor of an Alaska town smaller than Wick and has been Governor for only two years. It is much easier to shine in a position when dealing with reasonable people like the residents/elected officials of the state of Alaska versus the more demanding of New York or Washington.
I get so tired of the ignoramuses who will not vote for Obama simply because of his skin colour and of the emails that are circulated about him that contain nothing but lies.
Bottom line is either ticket has to be an improvement over Bush/Cheney.
Very well said, Margaret, and I concur with everything in your post. :)
Well, as a Yank here, I would like to offer my perspective (your milage my vary). There is a large segment of the population who is wary of Barry Obama, in part because Americans don't naturally trust someone who appears to put more effort into appearances than delivery, and Obama has that air about him.
I think he is going to be a our first black president, but I think if he does it this election he may go down as one of our worst presidents, next to Jimmy Carter. If I could make a wish for him it would be to quit the Senate and go run a company or a state for a few years - get some executive experience - so he has a better grip on how to lead. Right now he is an excellent communicator, but it is becoming apparent that most of his positions are being fed to him by his advisors. I would rather see his own ideas as the basis of his candidacy.
McCain is a very poor alternative. This time around the US system handed us a very hazardous choice. As for McCain's VP pick, I don't think she is as bad as who he was leaning towards (Romney, Lieberman, others). True she has not been in office for a long time, but neither has Senator Obama - they are in fact about equal in experience, with the difference being that Gov Palin has held executive positions where Senator Obama has been a part of legislatures (less leadership, more talking things to death).
The fact that Gov Palin seems to "have a life" that is not centered on politics is very attractive to quite a few Americans. Professional politicals are considered the cause of most of our problems, so Gov Palin seems like she may have a chance at not taking herself as seriously as most do, which is a big big plus for core conservatives.
Sorry for the long post.
Bruce H
The Pepsi Challenge
01-Sep-08, 01:46
How's that Who lyric go again - "the new boss, just like the old boss"???
How's that Who lyric go again - "the new boss, just like the old boss"???
"Won't Get Fooled Again". Let's hope not! America needs a big change for the better, especially after these past eight years. Barack Obama's the one I can see bringing that about - not McCain.
Well, as a Yank here, I would like to offer my perspective . . .
but it is becoming apparent that most of his positions are being fed to him by his advisors.
Bruce, thanks for a very interesting and well-thought out post and you offer a very plausible scenario. I just can't see anyone wanting to wait a few years while Obama goes off and gets experience. You've had 8 years of Bush's positions being fed to him by advisors so I can't see Obama doing worse because at least he seems to have a decent brain in his head.
I hope he wins just for having a wee bit of caithness in him!!!!. (Wonder if his relations emigrated from caithness?)
Barrock Obama has a nice ring to it dont you think ;)
percy toboggan
01-Sep-08, 19:25
I hope he wins just for having a wee bit of caithness in him!!!!. (Wonder if his relations emigrated from caithness?)
Barrock Obama has a nice ring to it dont you think ;)
I thought he had some Irish in 'im...
O'Bama I mean.
Aaldtimer
01-Sep-08, 20:18
This is from another Forum I visit:-
"Barack Obama indeed has Irish ancestry. As he has said "I've got pieces of everybody in me." Church documents, census, immigration and other records tracked down by U.S. genealogists show that Obama's great-great-great-grandfather, Fulmuth Kearney, reared in Moneygall, County Offaly , Ireland, came to the US in 1850 at age 19. His family line eventually produced Ann Durham who married Barack Obama, a Kenyan. In l961 they had a son also named Barack Obama, now running
for President of the United States.
The town of Moneygall has one stop light, two pubs, and a population of 298 which is delighted. Villager Henry Healy, 22, says:
"Sure it's great! It would be brilliant if he won because for on
thing he is related to me, and also it would be good for the village." The Irish Corrigan Brothers wrote the first three verses and chorus of the song below, Shay Black contributed verses 4 and 5, Chris Caswell number 6 - there are lots, lots more!
Shay hosts the regular Sunday evening music sessions at the Starry
Plow in Berkeley, California where the song has been sung with a new
verse added each week.
Barack O'Bama
Lyrics: The Corrigan Brothers, Shay Black and Chris Caswell
Sung to the tune of:
Sweet Betsy from Pike
Traditional tune based on 19th century song
"Villikins and His Dinah"
Chorus
O'Leary, O'Reilly, O'Hare, O'Hara
There's no one as Irish as Barack O'Bama
From the old Blarney Stone to the green Hill of Tara
There's no one as Irish as Barack O'Bama.
You don't believe me, I hear you say
But Barack's as Irish as was our JFK
His granddaddy's granddaddy came from Moneygall
A village in Offaly, well known to all.
He's as Irish as bacon and cabbage and stew
He's Hawaiian; he's Kenyan; American too
And if he succeeds and he has a chance
I'm sure that our Barack will do Riverdance.
From Kerry and Cork to old Donegal
Let's hear it for Barack, from old Moneygall
From the Lakes of Killarney to old Connemara
There's no one as Irish as Barack O'Bama.
His mam's daddy's granddaddy was one Falmuth Kearney
He's as Irish as any from the Lakes of Killarney
His mam's from a long line of great Irish mammas
There's no one as Irish as Barack O'Bama.
He looks after his own, a true son of St. Patrick
He chose as his mate, Joe Biden, a Catholic,
Proddies, Jews, Muslims, even the Dalai Lama
Know there's no one as Irish as Barack O'Bama
From Spain 'cross the waters, from France and beyond,
Our people have come and though many have gone
We remain what we are when we all started out
And of the Black Irish, Barack's one, no doubt.
Tooral U, tooral OO tooral OO, toor a lama
There's no one as Irish as Barack O'Bama
northener
01-Sep-08, 20:25
Chorus
O'Leary, O'Reilly, O'Hare, O'Hara
There's no one as Irish as Barack O'Bama
From the old Blarney Stone to the green Hill of Tara
There's no one as Irish as Barack O'Bama.
You don't believe me, I hear you say
But Barack's as Irish as was our JFK
His granddaddy's granddaddy came from Moneygall
A village in Offaly, well known to all.
He's as Irish as bacon and cabbage and stew
He's Hawaiian; he's Kenyan; American too
And if he succeeds and he has a chance
I'm sure that our Barack will do Riverdance.
From Kerry and Cork to old Donegal
Let's hear it for Barack, from old Moneygall
From the Lakes of Killarney to old Connemara
There's no one as Irish as Barack O'Bama.
His mam's daddy's granddaddy was one Falmuth Kearney
He's as Irish as any from the Lakes of Killarney
His mam's from a long line of great Irish mammas
There's no one as Irish as Barack O'Bama.
He looks after his own, a true son of St. Patrick
He chose as his mate, Joe Biden, a Catholic,
Proddies, Jews, Muslims, even the Dalai Lama
Know there's no one as Irish as Barack O'Bama
From Spain 'cross the waters, from France and beyond,
Our people have come and though many have gone
We remain what we are when we all started out
And of the Black Irish, Barack's one, no doubt.
Tooral U, tooral OO tooral OO, toor a lama
There's no one as Irish as Barack O'Bama
Maybe that's the sort of support he can well do without.......
Melancholy Man
01-Sep-08, 23:16
My only quibble with Bruce's input is that I don't think Obama is so much a good communicator, as a smooth operator. Things can't be any worse than the last eight years, he and his supporters say.
Never say never in the stupid wars.
No-one can seriously say that Palin wasn't picked as a tactical choice - a wholesome mom, frontier woman who rips the throats out of Kodiak bears with her bare teeth, small government type of gal. It's a sorry state of affairs when the only one of the four who has executive experience has held it for only two years, and a strong case, I think, for restricting nominations to state governors or senior mayors or, at a pinch, high-ranking army officers.
I think a tiny percentage will be checking their high velocity weapons and figuring out how to kill the first black President. This won't happen for a while because Obama will lose. Anyway, he's not black.
Of course he is. His father was a bona fide not European but black African person, making him as black as many of the racially-mixed city dwellers in British citys whom we call black. He arguably ain't "African-American", though.
All go round to Percy's for pretty girls! Pretty girls at Percy's!
Except I think Biden was pro-Iraq war - I don't know how Obama got round that one.
Americans were overwhelmingly pro-Iraq and, although I disagreed with it for a variety of reasons beyond the dull legality issue, I have greater respect for thoughtful supporters than I do for the crowd which, through desperate damage limitation, is claiming they were duped and that Bush lied. They heard what they wanted to hear, and there is no re-run button.
Plus, recruits continue to join the greatest volunteer armed-forces without illusion. By appointing the pro-Iraq Biden (who, almost unheard of amongst both supportive DC politicos and the smart and urban anti-crowd, actually has a child about to be posted there), I would hope Obama is saying that he does not consider American soldiers to be victims.
Melancholy Man, you do indeed bring up the other side of things. Some of my friends think that Sen Obama is too much of a hollow man to be effective, but as I point out, We have 8 years of W and 8 years of Bill and we are still alive and doing ok. I am guessing we can make it through Obama, hell he might even get a few right.
For those of you who want a bit of a laugh, a couple of funny guys who go under the name "Red State" have put together a set of videos about the election cycle, this one is about the choice of Sarah Palin. In case you are wondering, while this is a bit of a parody, I do know a couple of people who I could reasonably substitute for the characters in this 3 minute video - which is part of what makes it funny.
Bruce H
Red State Update: Sarah Palin Picked As McCain's VP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W5IAPK0hbU)
Melancholy Man
01-Sep-08, 23:45
Aye, Bruce, if I were voting I'd likely hold my nose and vote Obama (knowing Biden was there in reserve). My problem is that he's risen too fast to jetison embarassing pieces of his history or aquaint himself with the notions of consistency and truth. No matter who'd been President in 2001, America would have gone to war.
America deserves a black president, but it shouldn't be him. She deserves a woman president, and it should have been Clinton. There was a lot of highly unpleasant swipes at her, by the same people who are now calling Palin a dolly-bird (don't see it myself). Expect an opening of sluice-gates here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7592636.stm).
Give me a Republican creep any day before a Democrat creep.
No-one can seriously say that Palin wasn't picked as a tactical choice - a wholesome mom, frontier woman who rips the throats out of Kodiak bears with her bare teeth, small government type of gal.
. . . now with a 17 year old pregnant daughter. This must have some bearing on foreign policy, economy etc. I'm not aware of?
Melancholy Man
02-Sep-08, 15:08
Only a sadist with a heart of stone would fail to laugh out loud at the sense of bottom-loosening horror the Republican campaign team is feeling.
Re. Obama's lack of experience and the US electoral soap opera:
Abraham Lincoln was without experience and as president he did OK. And how much experience did John or Bobby Kennedy have? On the other hand LBJ had loads of experience and his presidency ended in disaster.
What's wrong with McCain is that his judgement is very erratic. Did anyone do a background check on Governor Palin and her family? If so did McCain listen?
Stay tuned....
Only a sadist with a heart of stone would fail to laugh out loud at the sense of bottom-loosening horror the Republican campaign team is feeling.
Sir, the mental image of John McCain losing control of his bowels while campaigning that you evoked made my day. Thanks.
Bruce H
. . . now with a 17 year old pregnant daughter. This must have some bearing on foreign policy, economy etc. I'm not aware of?
17, pregnant and underage drinking.http://perezhilton.com/2008-09-02-what-did-her-mom-do-wrong
Melancholy Man
02-Sep-08, 15:39
Abraham Lincoln was without experience and as president he did OK.Apart from the Civil War thing. Plus, this was before the USA became a hegemon, and the President's direct role was limited to a wee corner of North America. Also, we don't know how he would have fared postbellum.
And how much experience did JohnHe had his high points, such as the test ban treaty and missile crisis, but also low points displayed by the Bay of Pigs and instigating Vietnam.
or Bobby Kennedy have?Now we enter the Twilight Zone where Bobby Kennedy was ever President!
On the other hand LBJ had loads of experience and his presidency ended in disaster.
He undoubtedly deserves responsibility for the prosecution/escalation of Vietnam, but back to my point about Kennedy... LBJ's 'unlucky' to have been saddled with responsibility whilst King Arthur escapes. We're programmed to remember only Vietnam, and not civil rights or Great Society. A good place to start is Robert Caro's series; currently at Volume IV, Lyndon Johnson the Kindergarten Years.
And it didn't end in disaster! He knew when to stand down!
Re. LBJ knowing when to step down:
He stepped down because his presidency was in smithereens. LBJ was the greatest control freak ever! (Check Robert Caro: Master of the Senate).
Re. Lincoln and the war thing.
Lincoln was a great wartime president. I dont really see how he can be blamed for the Civil War. I can't even see that he had any responsibility for it. If you want the real culprit look at the Supreme Court and the Dred Scott decision.
Melancholy Man
02-Sep-08, 22:02
Re. LBJ knowing when to step down:
He stepped down because his presidency was in smithereens. LBJ was the greatest control freak ever!
A bit of which is needed in any political leader. Otherwise you get a terminal ditherer who says whatever nice and fluffy thing will make him popular, but doesn't deliver. After over a year of the Brown, should we really be comfortable at placing trust in an unproven commodity in the blithe hope that nothing can be worse than the previous offering, or what we believe the previous offering to have been?
It was stated that LBJ had bags of experience. Actually, he had little of that ol' time executive power. He entered party politics at 29, and over the next 1/4 century acquired arguably similar experience to Biden over the same period. And, of course, Biden has had more years.
He was an accidental President, who couldn't have failed to win the 1964 GE. His ousting in 1968 was down to myriad causes; he was leading a fractured country. Not just by the war which Kennedy had laid the seeds for and to whose wheel of fire he had found himself bound, but also by the civil rights *he*, a white Southerner, had commenced. Personally, I think a lot of the antipathy he and, right from the beginning, Bush attracted was their drawling Southern style - the OAS couldn't pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were on the sole - and lack of deference to the nobs of NE gravitas and Old Europe.
His contenders failed to mount a unified campaign. Anyone think it's new that the anti-war crowd puts personal revenge (against named individuals) and seeing installed worse options? There ain't nothing new under the sun! I'm a Joan Baez sort of gal before Jane Fonda. Reasons, anyone?
This disunion left it possible for Nixon to mossey on in. Now there was a deliberate President, and one who cranked-up the war and one who rejected what the Paris Peace Accords, at least on paper, offered.
Then again, even Nixon had his merits: greater racial integration, social projects, feelers to China. Shame he was a pathological liar.
Back to the control freekery. The success of this would be defined by holding onto power and. Not. Withdrawing. When. He. Was. Nominally. In. The. Lead.
Lincoln was a great wartime president. I dont really see how he can be blamed for the Civil War.That was nont my intention. However, again, he found himself, as President, in a situation which ended in war. I don't know as much about the American Civil War as I do about, say, the age of social catastrophe in Europe and East Asian war at its arse-end, but the best wartime President would have been one who *prevented* war, or won it quickly.
Any war is a mixture of good luck and skill weighed against bad luck and idiocy. Barring individuals such as Rommel, winners demonstrate more of the former, whilst loosers tend towards the latter. On balance, the theatre Lincoln put on succeeded.
I can't even see that he had any responsibility for it.Unless he was comatose, or stuck on the toilet, 1861-5, he bore indirect and direct and personal responsibility for multiple aspects. Basic moral philosophy.
LBJ's experience as leader of the Senate involved executive decisions and a whole lot of wheeling and dealing. I hate recommending books but Robert Caro (Master of the Senate) really is indisensible. One could argue - and I certainly would - that LBJ was one of the best equipped candidates who ever ran for president. Reading Robert Caro's description of the Southern oligarchs in the Senate is like reading about something from the Middle Ages.
It was Johnson's political genius that brought about senate reform. Prior to his arrival the place was a museum. It was thanks to Johnson's careful plotting within the senate that the US no longer has segregation with its myriad petty and vindictive restrictions. Yet that was less than 50 years ago. Within living memory!
And yet LBJ could be and often was a vindictive swine. He was also in the pockets of the Texas oil industry and spent a lot of time sucking up to the Southerners.
He was a Shakesperean figure, no doubt. So I would argue that experience is not necessarily a positive indicator of how a presidential candidate will fare in the White House.
I agree, and I'm far more impressed with Obama, than I am with McCain. The latter has just picked a running mate - an attractive, much younger female, who is a former beauty queen. Problem is, she's relatively unknown in US politics.
Does anyone else, apart from me, think that Sarah Palin looks like a cross between Nana Mouskouri and Sophia Loren, when they were around her age? :cool:
Does anyone else, apart from me, think that Sarah Palin looks like a cross between Nana Mouskouri and Sophia Loren, when they were around her age? :cool:
Spooky but true :)
True indeed, but I think she looks a lot like President Rosslyn from Battlestar Galactica. Come to think of it, McCain looks a lot like Colonel Tigh...
Bruce H
Melancholy Man
03-Sep-08, 20:32
He was a Shakesperean figure, no doubt.MacBeth is too easy, and has the problem of his not having killed his predescesor. Maybe King Lear, eventually standing down and seeing the party devoured by his daughters?
And Nixon could have been Ahab.
Whereas Brown represents the banality of a weevil.
So I would argue that experience is not necessarily a positive indicator of how a presidential candidate will fare in the White House.Yupples, and points taken about his Senate years. What stands out, though, about the current offering is that none of them are that inspiring beyond "he's got to be better than the last one", or strike fear into hearts beyond what would happen if someone this dippy got into the White House.
Does anyone else, apart from me, think that Sarah Palin looks like a cross between Nana Mouskouri and Sophia Loren, when they were around her age? :cool:
I think she is the spitting image of Tony Soprano's shrink, Dr Jennifer Melfi (played by Lorraine Bracco)
What do you think?
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i237/scorrie57/dr_melfi2.jpg
Melancholy Man
03-Sep-08, 21:13
Thank you, Scorrie! It's been bugging me for days! (Although I have in mind Maggie O'Connell from Northern Exposure, as she is now.)
Does anyone else, apart from me, think that Sarah Palin looks like a cross between Nana Mouskouri and Sophia Loren, when they were around her age? :cool:
Spooky but true :)
Even spookier is her resemblance to American writer/comedienne/actress Tina Fey! Tina starred in this year's comedy film, "Baby Mama". Prior to that, she was head writer for, and later a cast member of "Saturday Night Live". I don't know if that show has been broadcast in Britain or not, but it's famous for its satirical comedy sketches here. I can just imagine Tina doing a perfect parody of Sarah Palin! When I was watching Sarah deliver her speech at the Republican National Convention last night, I kept thinking of the uncanny resemblance. The two women could easily pass for sisters!
Here's a pic of Tina Fey:
http://www.buddytv.com/articles/30_Rock/Images/tina-fey-1.jpg
And one of Sarah Palin :
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2d/Palin1.JPG/225px-Palin1.JPG
Thank you, Scorrie! It's been bugging me for days! (Although I have in mind Maggie O'Connell from Northern Exposure, as she is now.)
Wow MM never had you down as a Northern Exposure fan!!! That was one of my favourite shows:) Spooky!!!!.
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