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brandy
22-Dec-05, 14:18
i know this post will prob start a war of words but just to state this in not my intention.
this is something that has really been bothering me the past few years and i really want to get it off my chest to speak.
everyone is allways going on about being open minded and how we should accept this that and the other. which is fine . as long as it goes both ways.
as most of you know im a deeply religious person and have my own personal beliefs and faiths.
however i do not presume to tell other people that what they are doing is immoral and wrong and that they will burn in everlasting fire.. simply because i do not belive that and do not find it my place to judge.
dont get me wrong i get all fired up over some topics and have very strong oppinions on things and express them from time to time *grins*
however, i have found in this community where everyone preaches open mindness and freedom to belive how they want.. exspecially when it comes to paganism atheism and all religions bar christianity..
in the past 6 years i have been harrassed over my faith.. told i was stupid and ignorant to belive in God . that there was no God . that to raise my children in my familys faith was wrong and basically that every thing i stood for all my moral values and standards were ridiculous.
in all that time i have never ever told anyone that they were the idiots or stupid because they belive differently than i . that they were wrong..
i honestly belive that what ever makes someone content and at peace with theirselves is right.
still, it stings though when im refered to as a religious freak and that im traumatising my children because they will be made fun of and tormented for thier beliefs.. when those same people are screaming ... equality, dont bash me, and let people live their lives how they seem fit.
when they are living with their own double standards..
to take a page from my mamas book im finally standing up and saying.. practice what you preach.
i agree as long as what you do hurts no one.. and is legal .. have at it.
what you do in your personal lives is your own buisness.. but these double standards are getting to be to hypocrytical.

figgy
22-Dec-05, 14:25
Hey Brandy, I sympathise - I've had persecution because I believe in God too, although only from a few very narrow-minded, trouble-making types. Not everyone scoffs; sometimes you can have a good talk about what you believe in and have all sorts of interesting conversations.

Don't ever give up on your belief for the sake of ridicule.

brandy
22-Dec-05, 14:39
oh dont worry hun not about to give my faith up !*grins* just glad there are no lions up north! or i might start getting worried !*laughs*

wicker
22-Dec-05, 14:43
Good on you for sticking up for your beliefs, personally myself i dont believe but would never dream of telling someone what they believe is wrong just because i dont.

Rheghead
22-Dec-05, 14:50
Hasn't Christianity spread from being an Judaen cult to being a major religion on the basis of being intolerant of other religions?

So isn't it a bit hypocritical rich of believers to start crying they are 'victims of intolerance'?

Jeid
22-Dec-05, 14:54
Everyone has the right to believe in whatever they want. I don't believe in anything really, but I won't go enforcing that one someone. I'll state my opinon on the matter if it comes up in conversation(like in another thread just now) and explain why I disbelieve.

People in this community think it's their right to impose their opinion on you when it's not asked for. Stuff them... you carry on believing in what you want and just ignore them.

Saveman
22-Dec-05, 15:17
Hasn't Christianity spread from being an Judaen cult to being a major religion on the basis of being intolerant of other religions?
<snip>



Indeed, the Crusades are a fine example of that.

However, I don't think its rich (or hypocritcal for that matter) for Brandy to ask that she not be harrassed for her beliefs. Thats something to be accepted and respected.
Well said Brandy.

erli
22-Dec-05, 17:28
Hi Brandy, I'm a Christian too. Read 2 Corinthians 12:10.

Have a wonderful Christmas with your family.

God Bless.

hereboy
22-Dec-05, 18:09
i have found in this community where everyone preaches open mindness and freedom to belive how they want.. exspecially when it comes to paganism atheism and all religions bar christianity..
in the past 6 years i have been harrassed over my faith.. told i was stupid and ignorant to belive in God . .

Brandy thats a shame, my grandfather used to say "If we all liked the same thing, the whole world would fancy your granny"

So celebrate whatever makes you happy....

oh and as an aside, is Atheism a non-prophet organisation?

EDDIE
22-Dec-05, 18:09
Well for me its your own decision whether u want to be religous in what ever faith u believe in or not at all.I think that its not right to cast opinions on peoples faith it should be all about respect other peoples faith even if you dont believe in it.Its there choice and we should respect there beliefs whether they have a faith or not.

scorrie
22-Dec-05, 18:35
Well for me its your own decision whether u want to be religous in what ever faith u believe in or not at all.I think that its not right to cast opinions on peoples faith it should be all about respect other peoples faith even if you dont believe in it.Its there choice and we should respect there beliefs whether they have a faith or not.

That would be all well and good but history is full of problems caused by people trying to force their religion onto others. Even today the Mormons and Jehovahs will be tapping your door trying to tell you where you are going wrong in life and why you should embrace their beliefs. Luckily, as the old joke goes, unlike a Lada, you are able to shut the door on a Jehovah's Witness.

Some one else said, in a seperate thread, that you cannot escape the fact that the Bible will have shaped your life in some way. This is partly true because it is rammed into you from an early age (at least it was in my youth) You were forced to listen to teachers and to attend services. Thankfully they could only force you to attend in body and the mind was free to choose what to believe.

There are people who believe in God and people who do not. There are people who believe in Santa and people who do not. A mannie coming down every chimney in the land on one night or a mannie in the sky who controls everything in the Universe. One image we grow up to let go of yet the other lingers on for many. I have no problem with that, other than the fact that I think it is better for us to accept responsibility for what we do here in the real world, rather than have fanciful ideas about what awaits in any supposed other dimension.

EDDIE
22-Dec-05, 20:06
Yes scorrie history does tells us that there has been a lot of problems caused through religous beliefs and thats why we need to educate people to respect other peoples beliefs and we cant change history but we can change the future over time

katarina
22-Dec-05, 22:20
Good on you Brandy! Never back down on what you believe. If more people brought up their children with the values of christianity the world would be a better place.

jjc
22-Dec-05, 22:52
If more people brought up their children with the values of christianity the world would be a better place. Tolerance of religion so long as it's your religion then Katarina?

scorrie
22-Dec-05, 23:16
Good on you Brandy! Never back down on what you believe. If more people brought up their children with the values of christianity the world would be a better place.

I don't agree at all with this statement. There is no evidence to support it at all. I believe we would be far better accepting that we are responsible for the things we do here and that we will be judged by others on the way that we conduct ourselves and not by some imaginary being. Society moves on and we are a more sophisticated race than the days when people were sacrificed to appease "Gods"

The human race moves on but religion is stuck in the dark ages, religion divides, as well as unites, the population of this planet.

I am an atheist and I bring up my children using common sense about what is right and wrong. Comments I receive from teachers and people in general tell me I am doing a good job in showing my kids how to conduct themselves in the modern world. Your statement that it would be better if I taught them Christian values is nonsense and insulting to all other non-religious people who have families. Typical religious narrow-mindedness!!

sids
22-Dec-05, 23:49
Just turn the other cheek, then off! Ha ha.

monkey
23-Dec-05, 02:10
I am an atheist...

I admire you for your faith. To know that there is no God requires more faith than one who believes there is a God. I hope you've thought it through well enough to be right. It would be unpleasant to have spent your whole life knowing there is no God, only to find out at the end that... oops, there IS a God, and those Christians were right all along.



I bring up my children using common sense about what is right and wrong.

Good for you. What would you do if one of them came home one evening and said he/she had met some friends and had been "saved?" Would you genuinely support your child in his/her belief, or would you attempt to impose your "common sense" on them to recant their recent conversion?

I've read a lot of partisanship in this thread. Regardless of what you believe though, the truth is still the truth, and none of us will have first-hand experience of that truth until it's too late to come back (unless of course you're a Buddhist :) ).

I am content with my belief system, but I know that it's a struggle to accept loved ones who believe differently. Makes us all realize just how open-minded we really aren't sometimes.

hereboy
23-Dec-05, 02:12
I don't agree at all with this statement. ...Your statement that it would be better if I taught them Christian values is nonsense and insulting to all other non-religious people who have families. Typical religious narrow-mindedness!!

Scorrie, Katarina said values of christianity not Christian values there is a subtle difference....

many people who are not Christian still live their lives in accordance with values that are the same as some of those values of christianity.

I guess atheists just accept the values of christianity that resonate best with them and then just ditch the ones that are contradictory or don't make sense. Its not coincidental that good people share the same values. Enlightened souls like yourself can obviously separate the wheat from the chaff.

As far as the bible goes, its not the bits I don't understand that trouble me, its the bits I do understand that trouble me. But I still have values that a lot of Christians and non Christians could identify with.

And if you are an atheist, power to you - its your God given right :)

Rheghead
23-Dec-05, 02:15
the truth is still the truth.

Are you quite sure about that?

Your truth may not be my truth but they may still be the truth. It depends on how you see what truth is.

katarina
23-Dec-05, 17:38
Tolerance of religion so long as it's your religion then Katarina?

Not at all. Many none christians can and do live by the same values. Note I said VALUES. I believe by previous posts (maybe I'm wrong) but brandy is catholic. As it so happens this is not my religion. so what's your point?

katarina
23-Dec-05, 17:39
I believe we would be far better accepting that we are responsible for the things we do here and that we will be judged by others on the way that we conduct ourselves and not by some imaginary being.

Excuse me, but that is exactly what I mean by VALUES, Whoever we are judged by.

scorrie
23-Dec-05, 19:27
I admire you for your faith. To know that there is no God requires more faith than one who believes there is a God. I hope you've thought it through well enough to be right. It would be unpleasant to have spent your whole life knowing there is no God, only to find out at the end that... oops, there IS a God, and those Christians were right all along.



Good for you. What would you do if one of them came home one evening and said he/she had met some friends and had been "saved?" Would you genuinely support your child in his/her belief, or would you attempt to impose your "common sense" on them to recant their recent conversion?

I've read a lot of partisanship in this thread. Regardless of what you believe though, the truth is still the truth, and none of us will have first-hand experience of that truth until it's too late to come back (unless of course you're a Buddhist :) ).

I am content with my belief system, but I know that it's a struggle to accept loved ones who believe differently. Makes us all realize just how open-minded we really aren't sometimes.




Ahh, that old chestnut, I might be wrong!! And the only thing better would be if you were there to see it and go Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah.

Being wrong can work both ways, one may well live a life of believing and be sorely disappointed by the black void that is the reality. History is full of beliefs in all sorts of hokum and the thing that links it all is that it never stands up to proper scrutiny.

You are right that it is more difficult to live life without belief. There is no passing on the responsibilty to God and there is the comfort that it will all turn out right somewhere down the line.

If you have seen the trailer for the program about where God was during last year's Tsunami you will have heard the woman describe that her children died in the Tsunami because of sins they had committed in a previous life. What a load of old tripe that is and I refuse to see why that can be deemed to be an opinion worthy of my respect.

As for my kids they will be welcome in my home whatever their belief, so long as they do not expect me to accept anything that I, personally, consider to be wrong, or expect me to embrace their "saviour"

There will always be a limit on how open-minded anyone can be because it is impossible to live a life without making decisions about what you consider to be right and wrong, correct or incorrect, good or bad. That closes many avenues of openness but I reckon it still leaves one more open to new ideas than someone using a 2000 year old book as their guide to modern life.

jjc
23-Dec-05, 19:53
Note I said VALUES. [...] so what's your point?
What you said was 'the values of Christianity'. Why not 'good values' or 'honest values'? My point is that you made no attempt to distinguish which 'Christian' values you would include in this upbringing, so I can only assume that you meant all of them.

katarina
23-Dec-05, 21:37
What you said was 'the values of Christianity'. Why not 'good values' or 'honest values'? My point is that you made no attempt to distinguish which 'Christian' values you would include in this upbringing, so I can only assume that you meant all of them.

Isn't it the same thing? If not, which Christian values do you not agree with? Please note we are not talking old testament here.
Half the problem of the youth today is that they have nothing to believe in. they are spiritually hungry, but old fashioned religion is not cool, so hence the popularity of cults.

Drutt
23-Dec-05, 21:46
I hope you've thought it through well enough to be right. Nobody of any faith, or in the absence of any faith, knows they are right. Each can only choose their own truth.


It would be unpleasant to have spent your whole life knowing there is no God, only to find out at the end that... oops, there IS a God, and those Christians were right all along. It would be unpleasant to have spent your whole life knowing there is a god, only to find out at the end that... oops, there ISN'T a god, and those atheists were right all along.

You don't need to express your concern for atheists, just as I feel no need to express concern for christians or those of any other faith. To express concern about our faithless ways is to be patronising and condescending.

Drutt
23-Dec-05, 22:02
many people who are not Christian still live their lives in accordance with values that are the same as some of those values of christianity. I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that christianity had registered "good values" as a trademark.

No, before you ask, I don't accept your distinction between "Christian values" and "values of christianity". Your whole post suggests that christians are superior and that non-christians can only hope to be 'as good' (whatever that might mean) if they hold the same values as those of christians.


I guess atheists just accept the values of christianity that resonate best with them and then just ditch the ones that are contradictory or don't make sense. The good values that help societies to function and thrive pre-date christianity. Indeed, there are good evolutionary reasons for supposed altruism in humans and other animals (I recommend The Origins of Virtue by Matt Ridley if you're interested).

Christianity cannot claim good values as its own. Therefore those non-christians who try to live good lives and live by their own values and moral codes have not borrowed anything from christianity. To suggest as much smacks of breathtaking arrogance. The world doesn't revolve around christianity. Let's try to avoid pretending that it does.


And if you are an atheist, power to you - its your God given right :) Umm, or not, as the case may be.

scorrie
23-Dec-05, 22:05
Excuse me, but that is exactly what I mean by VALUES, Whoever we are judged by.

My point is that people had values LONG before Christianity came to be. The human race could never have survived without a certain level of what was right and what was wrong. As time has passed people have become better educated and more sophisticated, this would have happened with or without the bible being written. Progress is relentless, it is not always a good thing but it is a fact of life. In the timescale of human existence Chritianity is a new kid on the block and those who wrote the bible will have based their writings on what had gone before. It is not simply a case of people knowing nothing about how to behave and then being handed a Vade Mecum on how to go about their life.

I repeat that I live my life based on what I feel is right and reasonable, as many others did long before the bible was written. It would be the same if the bible had never been written and is the way that a lot of people lived their life many moons before Jesus Christ walked this Earth.


You can call them Christian Values, Values of Christianity or anything you wish to, the fact remains that many good people walked this Earth long before the need for a "Guide Book" was deemed necessary.

In my experience, Christians are some of the least tolerant people I have ever met and I would question the true faith of some of the Church goers I have met in my lifetime.

hereboy
24-Dec-05, 06:51
I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that christianity had registered "good values" as a trademark.

Where did I say that all Christian Values are good? And define good.


No, before you ask, I don't accept your distinction between "Christian values" and "values of christianity". Your whole post suggests that christians are superior and that non-christians can only hope to be 'as good' (whatever that might mean) if they hold the same values as those of christians.

Eh, no actually, thats not it. At least that is not my distinction. Christian Values are Values that you have as a Christian. Values of Christianity are Values you have which are the same as Values a Christian may have but you don't have to be Christian to have them.

Horses have four legs, but not everything with four legs is a horse? Follow? And things before Horses had 4 legs aswell.

Does that help? Thats my interpretation - so my distinction is a value judegment and therefore is neither right nor wrong. If you don't accept it - thats cool.



The good values that help societies to function and thrive pre-date christianity.

Very true, but there are no people alive today who pre-date Christianity. So they are largelu exposed to those values through direct or indirect influence of Christianity. As much as an atheist may wish to "unknow" Christianity, unfortunately they can't.

I may be arrogant, but not for anything I have said in this post. The world does not revolve around Christianity - I agree 100%. It revolves around Values (see my SD posts form many months ago) - its is just that some of those values which bring out the best in people and organizations and nations etc, are consistant with the values of Christianity or any other of the worlds major religions.


As for my last line about Athesim and God Given right - thats what we arrogant people call a subtle attempt at humor. Here s another one you might not get.

There's nothing an Agnostic can't accomplish if he really doesn't know whether he belives in it or not.

Merry Christmas Drutt, or Merry Pre-Christmas or just have a great weekend, whatever makes you happy!

xxx

PS. You are still coming with me to the gay hitching right?

katarina
24-Dec-05, 11:43
My point is that people had values LONG before Christianity came to be.
You can call them Christian Values, Values of Christianity or anything you wish to, the fact remains that many good people walked this Earth long before the need for a "Guide Book" was deemed necessary.

You remember that do you?


In my experience, Christians are some of the least tolerant people I have ever met and I would question the true faith of some of the Church goers I have met in my lifetime.

Actually I would agree with that in SOME cases.

badger
24-Dec-05, 12:14
I don't know, although I'm sure I should, what the very basic tenets of other faiths are but the Christian faith is (or should be!) based on the two commandments to which Jesus reduced the original ten, i.e. love God and love your neighbour as yourself, "love" in this context meaning "will their good". Obviously if you don't believe in God then you can only adopt the second one, but think what that would do if everyone in the world took it as the most important rule of life - to will the good of everyone else. Wow!! Unfortunately people seeking power have always added their own agenda to all faiths which is why "religion" can be so disastrous.

Rheghead
24-Dec-05, 12:16
And define good.

Good point. Better still define evil.

My analogy is drawn from the Star Wars films to avoid contravening Drutt's internet message board rules.

The Galactic Star empire led by the evil Emperor and Darth Vader would have brought the same peace as the Rebel Alliance would, the difference being the means to which it is achieved.

Inorder for Christianity to spread across the Globe did it adopt methods used by the Rebel Alliance, ie. based on democracyand inclusion or by methods of the Galactic StarEmpire whereby they destroyed the opposition through war , ethnic cleansing and intimidation? You decide.:rolleyes:

badger
24-Dec-05, 12:29
I guess with most it's a bit of both. They start off with democracy and inclusion, then a lot of Darth Vaders get involved and that's where the trouble starts.

Drutt
24-Dec-05, 13:41
And define good. Good is all in the mind. It's entirely subjective. Look at the fundies in the US who believe vehemently in the death penalty but regard abortion as murder. Somehow they believe they're good, no matter how much misery they may be inflicting, or trying to inflict, on others.

I try to be good. By that, I aim to live a life that makes me very happy, without negatively impacting on others wherever possible. And I am very happy. However, sometimes things that make me happy are things that other people would regard as bad.

For example, I am not spending this holiday period with extended family members this year (or last year or the 2 years prior to that). I am far happier avoiding the stress and the arguments. But there are many who would regard me as selfish and bad for preventing the whole family being together. They may be unhappy with my decision, but I'm not causing their unhappiness... this relates purely to their subjective perception of events, not the actual goodness or badness of events or my behaviour.

I'm waffling on quite enough. I objected to your post (I think you noticed) because it appeared to imply some kind of christian superiority. But perhaps I was being short-tempered and judgmental.


Merry Christmas Drutt, or Merry Pre-Christmas or just have a great weekend, whatever makes you happy! I am mostly celebrating having a fortnight off work, but thank you for your good wishes. Merry Christmas, Happy Kwanzaa, Happy Hanukah, Happy Soyaluna, Merry post-solstice, Happy Bodhi Day to you. Okay, the latter one's a little late so I'm scraping the barrel a bit.


PS. You are still coming with me to the gay hitching right? I'm invited? That'd be fabulous. ;)

I have no weddings lined up in the near future. I can't even seem to get round to organising my own. :D

scorrie
24-Dec-05, 17:04
You remember that do you?



Not from personal experience but it is self-evident to anyone with the merest modicum of logical thinking!!

katarina
24-Dec-05, 18:12
Not from personal experience but it is self-evident to anyone with the merest modicum of logical thinking!!

Well, you know, I think it's interesting that those very people, every tribe, nation or culture believed in a god or superior being and some type of life hereafter, long before Christianity.
I wonder if it is an inborn instinct. If it was only a case of making the most of this life - then why?
I'm not argueing - only wondering.

Drutt
24-Dec-05, 18:20
Well, you know, I think it's interesting that those very people, every tribe, nation or culture believed in a god or superior being and some type of life hereafter, long before Christianity. Every tribe, nation or culture, katarina? Are you quite sure of that?


I wonder if it is an inborn instinct. Or, alternatively, it is not an inborn instinct but something which is taught to people as a means of controlling them.

Here's an interesting quote for you:

"If the belief in God were natural, there would be no need to teach it. Children would possess it as well as adults, the layman as the priest, the heathen as much as the missionary. We don't have to teach the general elements of human nature--the five senses, seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, and feeling. They are universal; so would religion be if it were natural, but it is not. On the contrary, it is an interesting and demonstrable fact, that all children are atheists, and were religion not inculcated into their minds they would remain so. Even as it is, they are great skeptics, until made sensible of the potent weapon by which religion has ever been propagated, namely, fear--fear of the lash of public opinion here, and of a jealous, vindictive God hereafter. No; there is no religion in human nature, nor human nature in religion. It is purely artificial, the result of education, while atheism is natural, and, were the human mind not perverted and bewildered by the mysteries and follies of superstition, would be universal."
- Ernestine Rose, A Defense of Atheism, 1878

katarina
24-Dec-05, 19:10
Every tribe, nation or culture, katarina? Are you quite sure of that?

Actually I am.


[Or, alternatively, it is not an inborn instinct but something which is taught to people as a means of controlling them.

By whom?



Here's an interesting quote for you:

For every quote written by an aetheist you give me, I could give you one written by a believer, or several written by different believers of different faiths.
But It's christmas eve, and actually, believe what you will, and I admire your unwavering faith that we are nothing more than animated vegetation, as i admire Brandy's unwavering faith in her religion. Perhaps I envy it a bit, because I have to hold up my hands and say - I just don't know! If there's a life hereafter - I've not been a bad person so I'm sure I'll get my just rewards. and if there's not - well I'm not bothered - I won't know anything about it anyway!
And if you want to go on arguing - well - do it with some other turkey, I'm off to stuff mine!

jjc
26-Dec-05, 22:30
Isn't it the same thing? If not, which Christian values do you not agree with?
Well, I think I've made it clear that I disagree with the Christian values that place husbands above their wives. I know I've made it clear that I disagree with the Christian values that denounce homosexuality. I disagree with the Christian value that requires you to love Jesus more than you love your mother and father, your son or your daughter. I disagree with the New Testament teaching that disobedient children should be killed.

Rheghead
27-Dec-05, 03:33
Well, I think I've made it clear that I disagree with the Christian values that place husbands above their wives. I know I've made it clear that I disagree with the Christian values that denounce homosexuality. I disagree with the Christian value that requires you to love Jesus more than you love your mother and father, your son or your daughter. I disagree with the New Testament teaching that disobedient children should be killed.

Just curious about one thing, what is your overriding love/loyalty?

Faith, family, country or your sense of right and wrong?

Shalom
27-Dec-05, 10:15
Well, I think I've made it clear that I disagree with the Christian values that place husbands above their wives. I know I've made it clear that I disagree with the Christian values that denounce homosexuality. I disagree with the Christian value that requires you to love Jesus more than you love your mother and father, your son or your daughter. I disagree with the New Testament teaching that disobedient children should be killed.

Your first point here re husbands being placed over wives....could it be that you haven't understood it? Maybe?
The actual teaching is not that husbands are superior to wives in some way. They are equal......but the husband is given this position......not to boss his wife around! It is a position that means he has the bigger responsibility for his family. He is also under authority......Jesus is over the husband. The authority line in the family is
Jesus
husband
wife
children
This position does not mean that God values husbands more than wives!
There has to be authority structure in society and in families. I'm happy for my husband to be head of the family but that does not mean I have to just shut up and accept all he says unquestioningly. I have input too and he has to listen! :D The Bible tells husbands to love their wives in the same way that Jesus loved the Church and gave His life for it.....well, if husbands obey that one, it can't be hard to have them as our head, can it?
Where does the NEW Testament say disobedient children should be killed? I have only seen that in the Old Testament. Can you please tell me where to find that one?

brandy
27-Dec-05, 10:51
here is the same verse in both king james and NIV

Ephesians 5
1Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

2And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

7Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

9(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

10Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

12For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

13But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

14Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

15See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

16Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

17Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

18And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

19Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

20Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

21Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

33Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.


Ephesians 5 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



Ephesians 5
1Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children 2and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

3But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.[a] 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7Therefore do not be partners with them.

8For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9(for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10and find out what pleases the Lord. 11Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. 12For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, 14for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said:
"Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you."

15Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is. 18Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. 19Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, 20always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

Wives and Husbands
22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."[c] 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Footnotes

scorrie
27-Dec-05, 14:06
18And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;



"Amen to that" - Matthew Gloag and Son

Rheghead
27-Dec-05, 14:36
Jesus aka Mythras and Osiris they are the same.

Jesus is a reworking of the old religions

katarina
27-Dec-05, 17:49
why is shalom a junior member? His/her posts are very mature and well thought out. Well said you!

scorrie
27-Dec-05, 19:21
why is shalom a junior member? His/her posts are very mature and well thought out. Well said you!



They are a Junior Member because they only have 6 posts, it has nothing whatever to do with maturity or lack thereof.

The system embraces the truth of the numbers only and is non-judgemental regarding opinions, knowledge or articulation. What a wonderful system!!

jjc
27-Dec-05, 21:30
Your first point here re husbands being placed over wives....could it be that you haven't understood it? Maybe? The actual teaching is not that husbands are superior to wives in some way. They are equal......but the husband is given this position......not to boss his wife around! It is a position that means he has the bigger responsibility for his family. Could it be that you haven’t understood it? Maybe? I mean, are we going to reinterpret the ‘words of God’ now, or are we going to take them as written? Which is it to be?

If we take the words as written then women are forbidden to teach men (1 Timothy 2:12) – an interesting one given the gender of Thurso High’s new Head. They should be silent in Church and should learn only from the husbands in their own homes (1 Corinthians 14:34-35). Mostly, they should be in subjection to their own husbands (1 Peter 3:1). A quick look at an online dictionary gives me two definitions for subjection:

1)Forced submission to control by others
2)The act of conquering

Either of those seem like they just mean ‘more responsibility’ to you? I’ve got to say that they certainly don’t seem that way to me.

The alternative is that we interpret the words to fit the societal norms around us. So Peter 3:1 says subjection. Yeah, but he really meant ‘more responsible’ didn’t he so that’s okay. And when we’re told that women should be silent in church, those were the churches of ages past and it’s okay for them to sing, pray and ask questions these days because women are equal.

The problem with allowing interpretation of the Bible is that people use the Bible to justify some pretty unpalatable beliefs, but if we are free to interpret our own meanings into the Bible doesn’t that mean that the people who say that homosexuality is wrong are simply putting their own spin on the Bible so that they can justify their own intolerance?

I guess what I’m saying is that if homosexuality is wrong because the Bible says so, isn’t it also wrong for women to become teachers?


Where does the NEW Testament say disobedient children should be killed? I have only seen that in the Old Testament. Can you please tell me where to find that one? After being criticised for not washing his hands before eating, Jesus responded to the Pharisees by accusing them of transgressing ‘the commandment of God’. He says: ‘For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death’ (Matthew 15:4).

Rheghead
28-Dec-05, 03:27
"It is easier for an eye of a camel to enter a rich man than it is for a poor man to enter a kingdom of needles."
(Rheghead 4:23)

DrSzin
29-Dec-05, 03:44
why is shalom a junior member? His/her posts are very mature and well thought out. Well said you! Gosh katarina, do you really mean that? I mean really, really mean it?

That post could have been written by me when I'm in extreme parody mode. Maybe I'm shalom in disguise. :)

Seriously, I'm not shalom in disguise, but I suspect most people wouldn't spot the difference. ;)

golach
29-Dec-05, 10:14
Gosh katarina, do you really mean that? I mean really, really mean it?

That post could have been written by me when I'm in extreme parody mode. Maybe I'm shalom in disguise. :)

Seriously, I'm not shalom in disguise, but I suspect most people wouldn't spot the difference. ;)

Doc, I always knew you were a smooth diamond i.e. a man of many facets

katarina
29-Dec-05, 10:56
Gosh katarina, do you really mean that? I mean really, really mean it?

That post could have been written by me when I'm in extreme parody mode. Maybe I'm shalom in disguise. :)

Seriously, I'm not shalom in disguise, but I suspect most people wouldn't spot the difference. ;)

Well in that case ....I really REALLY mean it.........

crayola
29-Dec-05, 16:14
Your first point here re husbands being placed over wives....could it be that you haven't understood it? Maybe?
The actual teaching is not that husbands are superior to wives in some way. They are equal......but the husband is given this position......not to boss his wife around! It is a position that means he has the bigger responsibility for his family. He is also under authority......Jesus is over the husband. The authority line in the family is
Jesus
husband
wife
children
This position does not mean that God values husbands more than wives!
There has to be authority structure in society and in families. I'm happy for my husband to be head of the family but that does not mean I have to just shut up and accept all he says unquestioningly. I have input too and he has to listen! :D The Bible tells husbands to love their wives in the same way that Jesus loved the Church and gave His life for it.....well, if husbands obey that one, it can't be hard to have them as our head, can it?
Where does the NEW Testament say disobedient children should be killed? I have only seen that in the Old Testament. Can you please tell me where to find that one?

Is this really a parody? It almost rings true, but not quite. There's something about it that I can't quite put my finger on. Maybe it's the didactic certainty of primary level RE lessons?

Could it be Szin? I am sure it isn't, but I have some ideas who it might be. ;)

crayola
29-Dec-05, 16:16
Well in that case ....I really REALLY mean it.........
I'm lost, What do you really REALLY mean? :confused:

You're impressed if it's Szin? Impressed if he's parodying or what? :confused:

Rheghead
29-Dec-05, 16:51
Is this really a parody? It almost rings true, but not quite. There's something about it that I can't quite put my finger on. Maybe it's the didactic certainty of primary level RE lessons?

Could it be Szin? I am sure it isn't, but I have some ideas who it might be. ;)

Well the thread by Shalom looks as if it was written with a big blunt purple crayon. Now I am not casting aspersions on the mentality of who typically write with those implements, rather suspicion falls on the manufacturer's namesake...;)

crayola
29-Dec-05, 20:21
Well the thread by Shalom looks as if it was written with a big blunt purple crayon. Now I am not casting aspersions on the mentality of who typically write with those implements, rather suspicion falls on the manufacturer's namesake...;)Sheesh Rheghead, first "that lot" think I'm porshiepoo, now you think I'm shalom. Nice try though. ;)

I'm so confused I've lost track of this thread. Where were we? Oh yes, brandy was upset because a lot of rude people don't like her brand of Christianity, and she suggests that many non-Christians have closed minds. This is a fair point.

You should believe whatever you like brandy. I do and I'm loving it.

May I ask you to be open-minded about my "religion"? Read What is Wicca? (http://www.wicca.com/celtic/wicca/wicca.htm) and tell me what you think. Do you think I'm a bad person for not believing in your God?

I can also recommend The Witches' Voice (http://www.witchvox.com/) for contemporary and seasonal content. Read and enjoy. :)

Happy Yuletide Brandy! :)

Rheghead
30-Dec-05, 14:03
The sure sign that anyone has a closed mind is when people make unscientific statements ie statements that neither be proved or disproved

Examples could be...

Einstein had the greatest scientific mind of the 20th century.
I saw a fairy last week.
There is a God
All creatures evolved from a common ancestor.
The burning of fossil fuels is causing the polar ice to melt.
Old Pulteney is the best whisky.

Anything statement which expresses an opinion is unscientific, so is indicative of a closed mind.

We are all guilty of having closed minds, it is the level of morality to which they are used that counts.

That is my opinion anyway;) :eek:

katarina
30-Dec-05, 14:15
I'm lost, What do you really REALLY mean? :confused:

You're impressed if it's Szin? Impressed if he's parodying or what? :confused:

Which word do you really REALLY not know the meaning of?

crayola
31-Dec-05, 03:24
Which word do you really REALLY not know the meaning of?It's not a case of individual words. I was wondering why Szin's post made you really REALLY mean it when you posted:


why is shalom a junior member? His/her posts are very mature and well thought out. Well said you!Do you think he really wrote that post? Rheghead seems to think I wrote it. What do you think and why?

shrek_donkey
31-Dec-05, 11:16
Sheesh Rheghead, first "that lot" think I'm porshiepoo, now you think I'm shalom. Nice try though. ;)

I'm so confused I've lost track of this thread. Where were we? Oh yes, brandy was upset because a lot of rude people don't like her brand of Christianity, and she suggests that many non-Christians have closed minds. This is a fair point.

You should believe whatever you like brandy. I do and I'm loving it.

May I ask you to be open-minded about my "religion"? Read What is Wicca? (http://www.wicca.com/celtic/wicca/wicca.htm) and tell me what you think. Do you think I'm a bad person for not believing in your God?

I can also recommend The Witches' Voice (http://www.witchvox.com/) for contemporary and seasonal content. Read and enjoy. :)

Happy Yuletide Brandy! :)
Who do you mean when you say "that lot" ?

spiggie
31-Dec-05, 11:31
It's not a case of individual words. I was wondering why Szin's post made you really REALLY mean it when you posted:
Do you think he really wrote that post? Rheghead seems to think I wrote it. What do you think and why?

Wondering that too. Maybe it was me?

katarina
31-Dec-05, 11:37
It's not a case of individual words. I was wondering why Szin's post made you really REALLY mean it when you posted:
Do you think he really wrote that post? Rheghead seems to think I wrote it. What do you think and why?

Didn't really REALLY mean anything. It just sounded like a cutesy reply. And believe it or not - I can sometimes get a little silly just for the hell of it!
Didn't expect to get psychoanalyzed over it.
And to your second question - I admit it sounds like it could be you or a number of others for that matter, but honestly - I'm not that bothered.....

crayola
31-Dec-05, 12:20
Didn't really REALLY mean anything. It just sounded like a cutesy reply. And believe it or not - I can sometimes get a little silly just for the hell of it!
Didn't expect to get psychoanalyzed over it.
And to your second question - I admit it sounds like it could be you or a number of others for that matter, but honestly - I'm not that bothered.....
Lol, there's nothing wrong with a little silliness now and then. :)

Of course it wasn't me! I wouldn't espouse (pun intended) such regressive opinions, even in jest. :rolleyes:

Anyways, I wouldn't know how to psychoanalyse anyone. You need gleeber for that. Come to think of it, I'm surprised he hasn't commented. He must have better things to do. :)

Maybe it was spiggie. ;)