Etymology of "Dounreay"

[Lianachan]

Any etymologists in the house?

I am told that the origin of the doun~ element in the place name Dounreay is not what might first spring to mind (from the Gaelic dún, as a reference to the castle) but from down, and that the Post Office near the site even had a "Down Reay" sign until comparitively recently. Born and bred Caithnesians I've discussed this with (I'm a comparitive white settler, from Ross-shire) say that locally the area has "always" been known as "down reay". I had thought that maybe originally the place was named in Gaelic from the castle, the dún at Reay, which then became corrupted into meaning "down reay" purely as a result of the similarity of the two local pronunciations - although, of course, Gaelic placenames aren't that prevalent in Caithness. The earliest placename reference I've been able to find online (without, admittedly, looking too hard yet) is Robert Gordon's map of Caithness, dated 1642, which depicts Dounrae as a castle. However, I'm reasonably sure that one of Pont's maps (from before 1590) depicts it as possibly under construction, and labelled Dounrae. So it seems like the name "Dounreay" is at least half a millenium old, and predates the castle.

Could anybody cast any light on this? Any ideas when the name "Dounreay" is first attested to, and what language the populace would have been speaking at the time (Norn, Gaelic or Scots/English?). Did it indeed originally refer to a dún in the area? There are two probable brochs immediately adjacent to the Dounreay nuclear site, and several more within a couple of square miles that could serve as candidates.

This is far from important, it's just something I'm curious about, but any information would be gratefully received.

[gleeber]

How about a Viking connection? Theres a Dounby in Orkney and I recall a song from my childhood called O to be in Dounareeeee but Im no sure where that Dounareeee was.

[Lianachan]

I can't remember hearing any Norse elements for the doun~ part, anywhere. If I ever knew any, I've forgotten them. I do, however, remember that there's a possible Norse origin for the name of the village Reay (as well as an equally plausible Gaelic one).

One interesting suggestion that was suggested to me today was that Dounreay originally came from Dún Ratha.

*edited to say - I think the Doun~ part of Dounby is probably a personal name since the ~by element comes from the Norse bu, meaning "estate". It's a comon element in the names of Orcadian farms.

[Rheghead]

Don't forget that there is a LOWER Dounreay and a UPPER Dounreay

[Lianachan]

Don't forget that there is a LOWER Dounreay and a UPPER Dounreay

Yup, indeed. I'm not particulary interested in them, though, since they're both clearly English words and are almost certainly descriptions of the physical geography. Cheers, though.

[lab]

I have Joan Blaeu,s Atlas Novus 1654,
on it doun-rae is a castle, the preceding page tells you that the map of caithness was coppied exactly from pont, I dont think either men actualy got this far north the maps are not very accurate Thurso sits on a peninsular between thurso river and scrabster bay.

[Rheghead]

I found this ont' internet.

http://www.btinternet.com/~murray.groat/Sinclair/Caithness.html

:)

[Lianachan]

I found this ont' internet.

http://www.btinternet.com/~murray.groat/Sinclair/Caithness.html

:)

Dunra in 1539 puts the date back a bit, and tends to support what I've been thinking. Cheers. No sources cited at that page, but a good find.

I vaguely remember a leaflet of Caithness placenames, which I lost years ago. It could well be where the information on that page comes from (I certainly got the impression I'd read the introduction before).
:)

[Lavenderblue2]

[quote I vaguely remember a leaflet of Caithness placenames, which I lost years ago. It could well be where the information on that page comes from (I certainly got the impression I'd read the introduction before).
:)[/quote]

Chapter 26 of the original Caithness Book published in 1972 has a comprehensive list of local place names, farm names and their meanings.

LB

[Lianachan]

Just in case anybody is vaguely interested in this at all, I looked Dounreay up in Watson's Celtic Place-names of Scotland and it's listed there as coming from Dúnrath, saying it's probably come from the presence of a broch. Since that book is the definitive word in place-name etymology, that's good enough for me.

:D

[Greenrunner]

This from research by Doreen Waugh pub Scottish Language 1985. I leave out large chunks, its a serious study and concentrates on many names in the Thurso-Reay area. I think the book s still available? The N Ra shiould have an acute over the a.

Both Watson (1926, page 117-8) and MacBain (1922, page 11) suggest that Reay should be derived from G rath....but there are cogent reasons for questioning this derivation......it seems reasonable to suggest that the name (Reay) is Norse and that the G rath has crept in subsequently because of its phonetic similarity with the Norse name ..................An appropriate Norse generic would be ON Ra , a corner or nook.... Food for thought

[Lianachan]

This from research by Doreen Waugh pub Scottish Language 1985. I leave out large chunks, its a serious study and concentrates on many names in the Thurso-Reay area. I think the book s still available? The N Ra shiould have an acute over the a.

Both Watson (1926, page 117-8) and MacBain (1922, page 11) suggest that Reay should be derived from G rath....but there are cogent reasons for questioning this derivation......it seems reasonable to suggest that the name (Reay) is Norse and that the G rath has crept in subsequently because of its phonetic similarity with the Norse name ..................An appropriate Norse generic would be ON Ra , a corner or nook.... Food for thought

Cheers, I've not read that book - although I have seen that ON origin for Reay suggested before. I think that both that and the Gaelic make sense, and it's difficult to know which (if any) is right.

However, what I've been trying to find out is if the Down Reay origin which people told me about has come from an older name. My gut feeling has always been that it must have, as the word "down" must be a comparitively recent addition to the language round these parts.

[Greenrunner]

I'll try to scan the relevant text sometime if your interested. But for now this also from same source
Quote....
The initial element is G Dun: a fortress, but it is frequently represented as either doun or down. It has obviously been assumed that doun/down represent the English down and that the local pronunciation is simply the Scots form of the English word. In conversation with outsiders, therefore, it has obviously been deemed polite to substitute the English pronunciation [daun]. When I crosschecked this information with another elderly local he confirmed that he would use the form ['dunra] (stress on first syl) but he added yet another variant when he saiad, " Of course, the right way (ie, the form appropriate for use with an outsider) is ['daunra]."
.....end

I must admit that before atomics I remember it as DOONeray then doing the usual Caithness bit and assuming others knew better and it should be DownRAY!

[Rheghead]

I went to visit Crosskirk today and there were plenty of graves with the word 'Downreay' on them.

[Errogie]

Its interesting how pronounciation and language changes probably more so when you receive a new population from outwith the area as happened in the north. In the 50's and 60's I met people who lived in the "Ben Ra" housing scheme behind the main road in Reay. That was the way they pronounced it then.
But about two years ago I did some work there and the residents were calling it Ben Ratha and to my surprise pronouncing the word exactly like that.

I can remember hearing of people who spoke what would have been local gaelic in those early days but I suspect they are now long gone and without that touchstone the correct pronounciation of Ratha has probably been lost. Certainly where "rat" or "rath" is part of the place name in other locations it seems to mean a small round fort such as a dun.

[Errogie]

To add to that, so did Ratha (Ra) become Reay during the 18th. and 19th. centuries and when the old name was revived in the 1950's for the new housing scheme is the process of change now being repeated and is this venerable word on its way to another version which may even end up as Reay again, but that might be too confusing!