View Full Version : baubles, bangles and sikhs
percy toboggan
29-Jul-08, 19:44
I disagree with the courts ruling that a school has to overturn it's rules and all a 'Welsh Sikh' girl to wear a slim, steel bangle to class.
She doesn't want to go back to the school anyway, apparently.
Her mother said 'for her to take of her bangle would be like losing all her limbs' ! Surely something of an overstatement. Perhaps she might like a word with the mother of the next Soldier to get blown to bits in some dusty hell-hole closer to her Grandad's home.
The kids father when photographed wasn't even wearing a turban so this suggests they are less than hard-line about their er.......religion.
'When in Rome' applies here...as it should do so often.
What next? As these minority religions continue to 'wag the dog'
Perhaps we should ban the French breakfast delicacy Croissants.
My 'Spectator' magazine reminds me this week that they were first made to celebrate the defeat of the Turks by Jan Sobieski, at Vienna in 1683. I quote Charles Moore " How much longer will European society be allowed to serve up this daily humiliation to muslims with their continental breakfast."
Just a thought.
i disagree with them allowing this. Many girls are made to remove jewelry for safety reasons. I dont agree with them going to school wearing it wether it be religious or not.
But then we dont make the rules.:eek:
percy toboggan
29-Jul-08, 19:53
It seems not to matter who makes the rules...they are open to challenge by anynody it seems in the name of faith...no matter how obscure the faith may be.
Faith should be left at home when a child attends school...if parents think emblems of faith are more important that a trouble free education then they should be denied the right to breed any more bauble wearing sprogs, for their priorities are all wrong.
yeah i totally agree it was totally unreasonable to be letting this girl do it why should she get away with it when others cant religion or not its stupid why should it be one law for one and one law for others
This is a good example of why there is intolerance of other races and their religions.
percy toboggan
29-Jul-08, 20:10
This is a good example of why there is intolerance of other races and their religions.
The truth is though TBH there IS tolerance...amazingly. You'll have people like me and thee having a pop on forums such as this and some 'harrumphing' over the garden fence or on the Clapham omnibus...and even in print such as centre-right magazines like the 'Spectator' but that's about it.
So in this oasis of assumed tolerance these people keep taking and taking, pushing further and seeking (no pun) and imposing their rights and practices opon the rest of us and the real danger is that the spring of unexpressed 'intolerance' is coiling tighter and tighter.
Remember the angry Sikh mob who had a play taken off the stage at a Birmingham theatre a couple of years ago. Or the Sikh who wanted to wear a turban whilst riding his moped...the law was changed to accommodate him!! Yet if I want to ride a motorcycle I HAVE to wear a helmet....WHY? I'm not opposed to wearing one as it happens but hey! How many Sikhs have you seen riding motor-bikes anyway? I don't think I've seen any!!
Live and let live, who gives a toss what people wear. Does it mean that diabetics or asthmatics shouldn't be allowed to wear sos bracelets. There's more to be worrying about like are they carrying knives than a bit of old tat on their wrist.
percy toboggan
29-Jul-08, 20:33
Live and let live, who gives a toss what people wear. Does it mean that diabetics or asthmatics shouldn't be allowed to wear sos bracelets. There's more to be worrying about like are they carrying knives than a bit of old tat on their wrist.
You seem to have a doom laden, highly perjorative view of youth.
The incidence of knife carrying in most places is miniscule.
Not really, are you around many young people? I am and I can tell you that the majority of them that I meet carry tools, knives and all sorts of other implements, to feel safe, misguided maybe but that's what they do. They pick up their mobiles, lighters and knives when they leave the house as if it's a normal thing to do. And I'd bet my life that the majority of their parents don't know this and that they come from all sorts of backgrounds, some very affluent ones as well.
The Scottish Sikhs I know personally as individuals seem to have no trouble at all combining their religion with their Scottishness. It doesn't bother me that they wear turbans or bangles or anything else, especially when it's in combination with a kilt!;)
These real, hard working, law abiding people I know do not seek (to pun intended) to 'take, push, or impose' anything on me on anybody else. They are not suggesting that we wear turbans or bangles, only asking that they be allowed to.
I have Jewish friends whose religious observances also involve slightly 'different' clothing. In both cases their religious practices are their own business, just as mine are my business. I don't feel that minor issues of dress require any great 'tolerance' on my part.
The only problems would arise if I felt that any difference was unacceptable and that they had to be just like me, or if they felt I had to be just like them!:roll:
Not really, are you around many young people? I am and I can tell you that the majority of them that I meet carry tools, knives and all sorts of other implements, to feel safe, misguided maybe but that's what they do. They pick up their mobiles, lighters and knives when they leave the house as if it's a normal thing to do. And I'd bet my life that the majority of their parents don't know this and that they come from all sorts of backgrounds, some very affluent ones as well.
Please don't tell me this in Caithness :eek: and if it is do you report these children or do anything about it? :eek:
I think that if everyone else has to follow the rules then why should this girl be allowed to wear a bracelet.
I do remember hearing about a woman who was not allowed to wear a crucifix necklace although her colleagues were allowed turbans etc. This is a Christian country???? Why do we always seem to have to support the minorities when the majorities seem to be more discriminated against.
In the case of places where uniform is standard such as schools, hospitals, the police etc then uniform should be adhered to by all.
I remember working in theatre suite, staff were not allowed to wear jewelry bar wedding bands. However anatheitists, doctors and surgeons could please themselves. Did they not acquire germs like more junior members of staff? Not sure what the situation is now.
I think that if everyone else has to follow the rules then why should this girl be allowed to wear a bracelet.
I do remember hearing about a woman who was not allowed to wear a crucifix necklace although her colleagues were allowed turbans etc. This is a Christian country???? Why do we always seem to have to support the minorities when the majorities seem to be more discriminated against.
I'd agree with you there mccaugm - but then I can see no reason why someone shouldn't wear a crucifix.
The trouble seems to start when the powers that be decide we all have to be to be exactly the same and remove any signs of difference, so as not to offend anyone else. :confused
Please don't tell me this in Caithness :eek: and if it is do you report these children or do anything about it? :eek:
Why does it matter whether or not it's Caithness or the east end of London. Young people aren't so different because of where they live. The issues are the same. If your dissafected your dissafected no matter what part of the country you live in, this isn't some sort of paradise where nothing happens. And to answer your question yes there are guidelines and procedures for reporting things if it's valid to do so.
It matters because I, as a parent worry about these things happening up here and my child being in the wrong place at the wrong time and would like to hope this trend is not happening up here.
Well personally I wouldn't be too worried unless your child is involved in the sort of circles that produce this behaviour, which I wouldn't think they would be.
The truth is though TBH there IS tolerance...amazingly. You'll have people like me and thee having a pop on forums such as this and some 'harrumphing' over the garden fence or on the Clapham omnibus...and even in print such as centre-right magazines like the 'Spectator' but that's about it.
So in this oasis of assumed tolerance these people keep taking and taking, pushing further and seeking (no pun) and imposing their rights and practices opon the rest of us and the real danger is that the spring of unexpressed 'intolerance' is coiling tighter and tighter.
Remember the angry Sikh mob who had a play taken off the stage at a Birmingham theatre a couple of years ago. Or the Sikh who wanted to wear a turban whilst riding his moped...the law was changed to accommodate him!! Yet if I want to ride a motorcycle I HAVE to wear a helmet....WHY? I'm not opposed to wearing one as it happens but hey! How many Sikhs have you seen riding motor-bikes anyway? I don't think I've seen any!!I wasn't saying that tolerance doesn't exist in Britain, of course it does. Though that tolerance gets worn very thin when we are always having to appease other races and religions for fear of upsetting them.
I wouldn't presume to have migrants leave their collective religions at port or airport but they must be made to realise that this is a different country with a different set of laws/rules, (good or bad), which must be adhered to.
I 'Welsh Sikh' .
Percy why do you feel the need to put that phrase in quotation marks? Just a thought
Percy why do you feel the need to put that phrase in quotation marks? Just a thought
The quotations emphasise the fact that there is no such thing as a welsh sikh.
Why is that strange?
The quotations emphasise the fact that there is no such thing as a welsh sikh.
Why is that strange?
There are certainly Scottish Sikhs, TBH, one does not preclude the other. My son was at school with some and worked with a few..in the Bank of Scotland.
Most of the Edinburgh tourist shops are owned and run by kilted Sikhs!:lol:
I don't think Wales would be any different, would it? :confused
The quotations emphasise the fact that there is no such thing as a welsh sikh.
Why is that strange?
sorry didn't realise I had said that it was strange.............are you looking at the same screen as me?
There are certainly Scottish Sikhs, TBH, one does not preclude the other. My son was at school with some and worked with a few..in the Bank of Scotland.
Most of the Edinburgh tourist shops are owned and run by kilted Sikhs!:lol:
I don't think Wales would be any different, would it? :confusedAngela, they are not Scottish. They have no Scottish values, traditions, cultures, they are as Scottish as Yorkshire pudding.
sorry didn't realise I had said that it was strange.............are you looking at the same screen as me?Well you must have thought it was strange to have commented on it. What part of Sikhism is not part of Welsh culture don't you understand?
Angela, they are not Scottish. They have no Scottish values, traditions, cultures, they are as Scottish as Yorkshire pudding.
I totally disagree with you there TBH! Who are you to say they're not Scottish!
The lads I'm speaking of were born and brought up here with plenty of Scottish, indeed local, values, traditions and culture. They were more Edinburghers than I am. It's a religion not a nationality.
Do you actually know any Sikhs? :confused
Well you must have thought it was strange to have commented on it. What part of Sikhism is not part of Welsh culture don't you understand?
I can comment on a lot of things without thinking them strange.
Do you only comment on "strange" things? Why do you feel that you can only comment on "strange" things? Are you unable to articulate anything else? Why did you feel the need to answer a question posted to someone else? Why do you now feel the need to question my understanding of Sikhism and Welsh culture? Do you feel threatened by my question? What make you an expert on Sikhism and/or Welsh culture that allows you to question someone elses opinion? Why is your opinion better than anyone elses? Will you answer all of these questions? Why is Sikhism and being Welsh mutually exclusive? Is being English and a vegetarian mutally exclusive (ie along the line of the great British Sunday joint)?
I totally disagree with you there TBH! Who are you to say they're not Scottish!
The lads I'm speaking of were born and brought up here with plenty of Scottish, indeed local, values, traditions and culture. They were more Edinburghers than I am. It's a religion not a nationality.
Do you actually know any Sikhs? :confusedThey are not Scottish no matter if they have lived here all their lives, they are Indian, a change of country does not change that fact. I Quite like you as a person although we have never met but I do agree with a lot of your opinions so let's agree to disagree on this?
So much tripe here-I think I will have to spin on my butt an go 'whee'-
The kid won a strike for her religion (no less) at least she had the balls to stand up for it,an i aint' going to put-right or wrong in parenthesis.
I can comment on a lot of things without thinking them strange.
Do you only comment on "strange" things? Why do you feel that you can only comment on "strange" things? Are you unable to articulate anything else? Why did you feel the need to answer a question posted to someone else? Why do you now feel the need to question my understanding of Sikhism and Welsh culture? Do you feel threatened by my question? What make you an expert on Sikhism and/or Welsh culture that allows you to question someone elses opinion? Why is your opinion better than anyone elses? Will you answer all of these questions? Why is Sikhism and being Welsh mutually exclusive? Is being English and a vegetarian mutally exclusive (ie along the line of the great British Sunday joint)?Jesus H, I didn't realise that because you were asking Percy a question therefore i wasnt allowed an opinion.:eek: This is a community website, I will post my opinions within the rules as is my right.
They are not Scottish no matter if they have lived here all their lives, they are Indian, a change of country does not change that fact. I Quite like you as a person although we have never met but I do agree with a lot of your opinions so let's agree to disagree on this?
LOL, TBH, how can I resist such an appeal? :lol:
You do realise that I was born in (gulp) Warrington? :eek:
LOL, TBH, how can I resist such an appeal? :lol:
You do realise that I was born in (gulp) Warrington? :eek:Nobody is perfect Angela.;) Is that where the Dad's army lot wre supposed to be, Warrington On Sea?
Jesus H, I didn't realise that because you were asking Percy a question therefore i wasnt allowed an opinion.:eek: This is a community website, I will post my opinions within the rules as is my right.
You originally asked a question and did not state an opinion. Do you not know the difference between an opinion and a question? Do you need my help on this? Why do you feel the need to use pseudo-expletives such as "Jesus H" to get your point accross? Do you not know anyother ways of getting you commentary over? Did I say that ypu were not allowed to have an opinion? Why do you read into things whne they are not there? Why do you think I have questioned your right? Why have you still not answered any of my questions? Why do you feel the need to coach me on the differences and similarties between Sikhs and the Welsh? What experience and knowledge do you have on the matter?
I feel that many things are done and religion is used as reason rightly or wrongly. I often wonder what peoples aims are in these situations. I believe that school rules help make the pupils!!
You originally asked a question and did not state an opinion. Do you not know the difference between an opinion and a question? Do you need my help on this? Why do you feel the need to use pseudo-expletives such as "Jesus H" to get your point accross? Do you not know anyother ways of getting you commentary over? Did I say that ypu were not allowed to have an opinion? Why do you read into things whne they are not there? Why do you think I have questioned your right? Why have you still not answered any of my questions? Why do you feel the need to coach me on the differences and similarties between Sikhs and the Welsh? What experience and knowledge do you have on the matter?Yes Benji, I am intellectually challenged so could you, possily, ake it all make sense to me?
I think I may be sufering from asperger's.
Nobody is perfect Angela. Is that where the Dad's army lot wre supposed to be, Warrington On Sea?
I think your English geography's gone a bit haywire there, TBH. :lol:
Wasn't that a fictional place ....Warmington, maybe?
I was born a Lancashire Lass...not that far from percy, and in the same year too! :eek:
I think that if everyone else has to follow the rules then why should this girl be allowed to wear a bracelet.
I do remember hearing about a woman who was not allowed to wear a crucifix necklace although her colleagues were allowed turbans etc. This is a Christian country???? Why do we always seem to have to support the minorities when the majorities seem to be more discriminated against.
The difference is that, unlike the Sikh bracelet or turban, or the covering of the head by Muslims and Orthodox Jewish women a crucifix necklace IS simply an item of jewellery...............as it is not required in the bible as an integral part of the religion. So not allowing a crucifix necklace is not discriminating against a person's religion as the wearing of it is a personal choice.
I seem to remember that in the case you talk about, the woman wasn't stopped from wearing the crucifix.....just told not to wear it outside her uniform.
Can't see a problem with that.
Yes Benji, I am intellectually challenged so could you, possily, ake it all make sense to me?
I think I may be sufering from asperger's.
Thanks for clearing it up - I think that your opinion on your own intellect may explain to some people some of the postings on here. I salute your honesty. Certainly I would not want my own opinions to dominate your thinking so suggest you sit back, relax and read some of the many postings on this forum.
Having known one or two people with Asperger's (capital A, its named after a person) of varying degress I can empathise with your situation. I have known CBT to work well in one case and might be worth you following up....just a thought
Yes Benji, I am intellectually challenged so could you, possily, ake it all make sense to me?
I think I may be sufering from asperger's.
Well if your in your 30's or 40's it wouldn't surprise me if you have aspergers cause it went largely un-diagnosed for years by GP's but then the other school of thought would say your using it as an excuse.
northener
29-Jul-08, 23:24
................... I have known CBT to work well in one case and might be worth you following up....just a thought
Well TBH, if you need Compulsory Basic Training for a motorcycle I can recommend David Bremner in Thrumster.
PM me if you need his number:D.
Sapphire2803
29-Jul-08, 23:25
I have known CBT to work well in one case and might be worth you following up....just a thought
Bwahahahahahahahaha.....
You owe me a mouthful of tea and a keyboard clean! :lol:
Bwahahahahahahahaha.....
You owe me a mouthful of tea and a keyboard clean! :lol:
?????????????
Sapphire2803
29-Jul-08, 23:29
By the way, in case you're confused...
Cognitive behavioural therapy wasn't what came to mind first.
Google CBT if you don't know what I mean, let's just say explaining it on here might result in an infraction and it's something to do with inflicting pain upon men's nether regions!!
Sapphire2803
29-Jul-08, 23:31
I'll get me coat....
By the way, in case you're confused...
Cognitive behavioural therapy wasn't what came to mind first.
Google CBT if you don't know what I mean, let's just say explaining it on here might result in an infraction and it's something to do with inflicting pain upon men's nether regions!!
For me CBT = Cognitive behavioural therapy .... and nothing involving electrodes, oranges or anything else of a similar vein (or the preliminary to getting your bike)
northener
29-Jul-08, 23:36
Sooo.....
So far we understand that CBT involves oranges, electrodes, Sapphires' coat and motorbikes.....
Count me in!:Razz
Sapphire2803
29-Jul-08, 23:40
I blame the el cheapo wine I'm drinking....
Oops! Threadjacked!!
Right...
I was brought up catholic, I went to mainstream, state primary schools. If there was anything religious going on I had the option to go and sit in the library. I was interested (nosey), so I stayed in the classroom. There was NO jewellery allowed at the school, so I didn't wear a crucifix or any other jewellery.
I think that the only exceptions to these rules should be when it is unthinkable for a person to be seen without whatever it is they want to wear. If you have a problem with that then you should send your children to a school which is run by your particular church.
Sapphire2803
29-Jul-08, 23:44
Sooo.....
So far we understand that CBT involves oranges, electrodes, Sapphires' coat and motorbikes.....
Count me in!:Razz
Bwahahahahaha
My poor husband just came in to see what the loud cackling noise was, took one look at me in hysterics and promptly legged it back to the shed! :eek:
Bwahahahahaha
My poor husband just came in to see what the loud cackling noise was, took one look at me in hysterics and promptly legged it back to the shed! :eek:The shed is the last bastion of male independence.[lol]
I think your English geography's gone a bit haywire there, TBH. :lol:
Wasn't that a fictional place ....Warmington, maybe?
I was born a Lancashire Lass...not that far from percy, and in the same year too! :eek:Warmington, that is the one. Was a few consonants out but what the hey?
Thanks for clearing it up - I think that your opinion on your own intellect may explain to some people some of the postings on here. I salute your honesty. Certainly I would not want my own opinions to dominate your thinking so suggest you sit back, relax and read some of the many postings on this forum.
Having known one or two people with Asperger's (capital A, its named after a person) of varying degress I can empathise with your situation. I have known CBT to work well in one case and might be worth you following up....just a thoughtI will indeed sit back and enjoy all the pseudo intellectual ramblings of the few.
Warmington, that is the one. Was a few consonants out but what the hey?
Sorry I cannot see this dear old programme maligned any more - it was Walmington-on-Sea! And by jove I hope we are not "All doomed!" :(
Sorry I cannot see this dear old programme maligned any more - it was Walmington-on-Sea! And by jove I hope we are not "All doomed!" :(A great series with a humour that is lacking in modern day television 'comedies.'
percy toboggan
30-Jul-08, 17:24
Percy why do you feel the need to put that phrase in quotation marks? Just a thought
Why do you think I felt the need to do that Benji old chap.
Moreover, why do you feel the need to highlight it?
She actually described herself as a 'Welsh Sikh' so I used the quote. In my wilder moments I might see the statement as something of a contradiction in terms.
However if she'd described herself as a 'bit of a Welsh porker' I'd have quoted that as well. She needs to concentrate on losing some weight, rather than wearing her bangle. Otherwise she might meet her precious God/Gods sooner than she'd planned.
percy toboggan
30-Jul-08, 17:38
Angela: Warrington has moved upmarket (allegedly) now and is in Cheshire.
Wifie: You have excellent television taste..Dad's Army is still different class & as TBH says represent excellent comdedy from an age when p.c. meant phish and chips....or something more more crude.
Benji: If a kitten is born in a stable does it suddenly beome a horse, or is it still a cat. People are different however.....
...Sikhs are great people...fearsome fighters with a history of standing up for themselves...most of the ones I have any experience of are humourous, intelligent and actually have a fondness for Britain!! I believe there homeland is the Punjab region of the sub-continent. Had I had the interesting quirk of fate to have been born there I should still regard myself as English. Blood defines nationality, not the geographical perambulations of yer parents...at least for a few generations anyway...I've no doubt this Sikh kids great granchildren will be as Welsh as Max Boyce...don't push it, don't rush it and it might all settle down by the time you (Benji) and me are dust....push it, rush it...we might end up on opposite sides of the barricades.
If the Sikh girl is so proud of her heritage then she should still consider herself Punjabi...living in Wales..seems to me she wants the best of both worlds...or to have her cake and eat it (she probably scoffed two anyway)
Where the heck are you anyway Benji? Somewhere on planet earth I presume.Is that your real name...I chose 'percy' because it's vaguely comical in the early 21st. century...what's your excuse?
However if she'd described herself as a 'bit of a Welsh porker' I'd have quoted that as well. She needs to concentrate on losing some weight, rather than wearing her bangle. Otherwise she might meet her precious God/Gods sooner than she'd planned.
Thanks for that. A valuable contribution.
Well TBH, if you need Compulsory Basic Training for a motorcycle I can recommend David Bremner in Thrumster.
PM me if you need his number:D.Cheers Northerner, Will he let me away with not wearing a Helmet if I wear my turban?
If the Sikh girl is so proud of her heritage then she should still consider herself Punjabi...living in Wales..seems to me she wants the best of both worlds...or to have her cake and eat it (she probably scoffed two anyway)
But she isn't proud of her Punjabi heritage.......she is proud of her Sikh religion. ....otherwise she'd have been a Welsh Punjabi, wouldn't she. She certainly had a stronger Welsh accent than many I have heard on telly/radio who claim to be Welsh.
Percy, your racism is showing.
percy toboggan
31-Jul-08, 22:21
But she isn't proud of her Punjabi heritage.......she is proud of her Sikh religion. ....otherwise she'd have been a Welsh Punjabi, wouldn't she. She certainly had a stronger Welsh accent than many I have heard on telly/radio who claim to be Welsh.
Percy, your racism is showing.
The Welsh have a language all of their own so speaking English in a Welsh accent is not the best indicator of a fervent Welshness.
I don't buy this 'Welsh-Punjabi' or 'British-Asian' stuff frankly, because it seems to me it's a tad divisive, in the truest sense. A cake and eat it job - leaving fat gags aside because humour, of the mildly cruel kind is obviously lost on Benji ,one of the few protagonists still standing on this thread - if people do not want to see themselves as British, and abide by British customs and rules then live somewhere else. By all means celebrate your own culture amongst yourselves, or in your own home but it has no place in British society at large. I do not for instance like to see council notices translated into umpteen different languages....learn English or lose out! I'm pleased to say that a recent Government edict is aimed at severely restricting the translators gravy train.
Oddquine...your final barb was predictable enough, The word has now become the vapid insignia of the hard of thinking. I recall you have barely travelled outside the north of Scotland (unless I mistake you for someone else - in which case I apologise) and you seem to habitually latch onto minority campaigns and lost causes...not least a fiercely held longing for Scottish independence.
Almost as though there is some deep seated resistance in your psyche to finding anything good in any kind of established order, or majority custom. I did used to think like you myself to be honest....awkward and truculent...and very anti-establishment indeed..until it became obvious that my descendants might become minority interests themselves one day. I much prefer the status quo for all its faults. At least those faults make it recognisable as Britain, so do not deny me my vain cries of protest as the old country prepares to slide down the plughole of rampant multi-culturalism, a failed programme according to the man who has been paid handsomely to serve as its Champion.
northener
31-Jul-08, 22:35
Cheers Northerner, Will he let me away with not wearing a Helmet if I wear my turban?
You'll have to take up the Sikh faith.
'Javinder TBH Singh' does have a certain ring to it........
A cake and eat it job - leaving fat gags aside because humour, of the mildly cruel kind is obviously lost on Benji
Personally I don't think it was humour; I have a host of other words that I would use to describe it.
But I am still left wondering why you thought the comment lent any advantage to your argument. In fact - to be brutally honest percy - it actually damaged your whole line of argument.
I much prefer the status quo for all its faults.
Sorry percy but this in direct contradiction of many, many of your other postings on many other threads. Are you mellowing?
percy toboggan
31-Jul-08, 23:03
Sorry percy but this in direct contradiction of many, many of your other postings on many other threads. Are you mellowing?
probably...it's late, and I should be in bed.
So should you perhaps...you are analysing my posts way too carefully...please do not look for consistency or any continuing sense of direction...I just come on here to sound off about whatever gets my goat....and occassionally, to annoy people like you;)
Were you really born in John O' Groats? If so...many congratulations.
probably...it's late, and I should be in bed.
So should you perhaps...you are analysing my posts way too carefully...please do not look for consistency or any continuing sense of direction...I just come on here to sound off about whatever gets my goat....and occassionally, to annoy people like you;)
Were you really born in John O' Groats? If so...many congratulations.
Yes a long time ago.
As Peeps would say "...and so to bed"
Immigrants should get no special treatment or concessions made for them.
This is Britain and if they dont like the way we do things then they are welcome not to set foot inside it.
Immigrants should get no special treatment or concessions made for them.
This is Britain and if they dont like the way we do things then they are welcome not to set foot inside it.
But Britain has signed up to the EU Convention of Human Rights as in the Human Rights Act of 1998.
This states that.......
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.
2. Freedom to manifest one’s religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
So allowing the wearing/use of items which are required by a religion is exactly the way the UK does things.
But Britain has signed up to the EU Convention of Human Rights as in the Human Rights Act of 1998.
This states that.......
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.
2. Freedom to manifest one’s religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
So allowing the wearing/use of items which are required by a religion is exactly the way the UK does things.How does that work in a school where the law states no jewellery is to be worn? Why should one set of children be allowed to circumvent that rule?
Oddquine...your final barb was predictable enough, The word has now become the vapid insignia of the hard of thinking. I recall you have barely travelled outside the north of Scotland (unless I mistake you for someone else - in which case I apologise) and you seem to habitually latch onto minority campaigns and lost causes...not least a fiercely held longing for Scottish independence.
Not at all, Percy........in the time I have been on this forum, the bulk of the posts antagonistic to immigrants, primarily of colour or non-Christian have come from your keyboard.
I appreciate that living in England, you may have a different view to people in more rural communities who do not have the same level of perceived "incomers" other than the English.
I apologise(NOT) that I think there is too much of a tendency for some people to assume that if you are not white, anglo-saxon and british born, you are out to change this country rather than live in it.
I can't see what having travelled outside Scotland has to do with anything...............in fact if travelling outside Scotland would perhaps give me attitudes like yours, I am quite delighted that I have never bothered to get a passport.
Scottish Independence a lost cause? Come back and repeat that in 10 years time! ;)
Almost as though there is some deep seated resistance in your psyche to finding anything good in any kind of established order, or majority custom. I did used to think like you myself to be honest....awkward and truculent...and very anti-establishment indeed..until it became obvious that my descendants might become minority interests themselves one day. I much prefer the status quo for all its faults. At least those faults make it recognisable as Britain, so do not deny me my vain cries of protest as the old country prepares to slide down the plughole of rampant multi-culturalism, a failed programme according to the man who has been paid handsomely to serve as its Champion.
I don't have a problem with the established order......but I don't think it is an order set in stone..........it needs to be able to accommodate the new globalisation.
I have no problem with restricting immigration, or removing illegal immigrants who are not able to claim political asylum, provided the rules are colour-blind.
I do not necessarily agree with those who lobby to get concessions outside UK Law for this religion or that race...........but frankly, if a UK Government allows it...then more fool them.
I can't say I have a problem with my descendents being a minority in Scotland............or even not quite white .........provided the majority haven't taken a leaf out of your book and treat them as unwelcome and think of them as you do of the minorities now.
The day that all UK emigrants go to other countries to live and bother to learn the language of the country they have chosen.......and don't form little UK enclaves where they don't actually have to interact with the natives.......then come back to me and bleat about other religions/races not integrating.
How does that work in a school where the law states no jewellery is to be worn? Why should one set of children be allowed to circumvent that rule?
Because the bracelet the girl wanted to wear is an integral part of the Sikh faith, unlike the crucifix or the gold chain which is an adornment of choice.
Kara - a steel bracelet
A symbol of restraint and gentility.
A symbol that a Sikh is linked to the Guru.
It acts as a reminder that a Sikh should not do anything of which the Guru would not approve.
A symbol of God having no beginning or end.
A symbol of permanent bonding to the community-being a link in the chain of Khalsa Sikhs (the word for link is 'kari').
The Kara is made of steel, rather than gold or silver, because it is not an ornament.
Because the bracelet the girl wanted to wear is an integral part of the Sikh faith, unlike the crucifix or the gold chain which is an adornment of choice.
Kara - a steel bracelet
A symbol of restraint and gentility.
A symbol that a Sikh is linked to the Guru.
It acts as a reminder that a Sikh should not do anything of which the Guru would not approve.
A symbol of God having no beginning or end.
A symbol of permanent bonding to the community-being a link in the chain of Khalsa Sikhs (the word for link is 'kari').
The Kara is made of steel, rather than gold or silver, because it is not an ornament.
So they should have stayed in the Punjab then they could wear their Bracelets to their hearts content.
because it is not an ornament.
Aha so therefore she should be allowed to wear it! Must admit tho I come down on the side of the school rules - schools have enough discipline problems I think without this sort of thing giving pupils the upper hand!
because it is not an ornament.
Aha so therefore she should be allowed to wear it! Must admit tho I come down on the side of the school rules - schools have enough discipline problems I think without this sort of thing giving pupils the upper hand!
My point is that If they really, I mean really, want children of this country and it must be the children that instigate this as the adults are too set in their ways, to live harmoniously togetherwith children of other countries, then they must not put these obstacles of one rule for them and another for immigrants in their way. It does nothing but perpetuate the mistrust and hatred of other races.
My point is that If they really, I mean really, want children of this country and it must be the children that instigate this as the adults are too set in their ways, to live harmoniously togetherwith children of other countries, then they must not put these obstacles of one rule for them and another for immigrants in their way. It does nothing but perpetuate the mistrust and hatred of other races.
Dead right - harmony is what we surely are all after!
So they should have stayed in the Punjab then they could wear their Bracelets to their hearts content.
Given the accent and english usage, I'd have assumed the girl was British born. Whether her father was a religious Sikh or not is neither here nor there.
Maybe it is about time we began to wonder why so many second/third generation immigrants feel the need to embrace their religion in this country............you don't think it is possibly because of attitudes expressed in the media or on forums like this on the internet?
If I were male and was subject to disapproval/objections to wearing the kilt from anywhere I'd be much more inclined to wear it.
Given the accent and english usage, I'd have assumed the girl was British born. Whether her father was a religious Sikh or not is neither here nor there.
Maybe it is about time we began to wonder why so many second/third generation immigrants feel the need to embrace their religion in this country............you don't think it is possibly because of attitudes expressed in the media or on forums like this on the internet?
If I were male and was subject to disapproval/objections to wearing the kilt from anywhere I'd be much more inclined to wear it.Whether she was British born or not does not matter one bit. We have rules in our schools which must be adhered to, rightly or wrongly. To do otherwise causes the divisions, the hatred of other races coming to our country.
The hatred of other religions. We must all be equal or Britain will decend into chaos.
My point is that If they really, I mean really, want children of this country and it must be the children that instigate this as the adults are too set in their ways, to live harmoniously togetherwith children of other countries, then they must not put these obstacles of one rule for them and another for immigrants in their way. It does nothing but perpetuate the mistrust and hatred of other races.
But the mistrust and hatred of other races/religions is exactly the problem in the UK and other countries.
I have to say that I do think any blanket banning of jewelery is a step too far...........my school always managed quite happily with making us remove jewelery for PE lessons.
Living harmoniously would be less of a problem if not for the kind of people who think the best way to confront a perceived(rather than real) problem is to ban everything rather than be sensible and ban where necessary..........because I can't see any health and safety problems with wering jewelery during a classroom based lesson.
Whether she was British born or not does not matter one bit. We have rules in our schools which must be adhered to, rightly or wrongly. To do otherwise causes the divisions, the hatred of other races coming to our country.
The hatred of other religions. We must all be equal or Britain will decend into chaos.
But what problem is there in any school if pupils wear a chain a bracelet, a ring etc?
When you are sitting behind a desk in a classroom, who can it hurt?
The current situation is what is fostering divisions.......and for what? Because they can?
But the mistrust and hatred of other races/religions is exactly the problem in the UK and other countries.
I have to say that I do think any blanket banning of jewelery is a step too far...........my school always managed quite happily with making us remove jewelery for PE lessons.
Living harmoniously would be less of a problem if not for the kind of people who think the best way to confront a perceived(rather than real) problem is to ban everything rather than be sensible and ban where necessary..........because I can't see any health and safety problems with wering jewelery during a classroom based lesson.So you agree that if there is a ban on jewellery then it must be a blanket ban for all?
Have you ever watched children play, all races? Children when playing with other children do not see anything other than another child.
Creating rules that cause percieved divisions between children of different races cannot be a good thing no matter how many human rights conventions are written up.
because it is not an ornament.
Aha so therefore she should be allowed to wear it! Must admit tho I come down on the side of the school rules - schools have enough discipline problems I think without this sort of thing giving pupils the upper hand!
Don't you think there are much more important rules for schools to be dealing with than the wearing of jewelery?
So you agree that if there is a ban on jewellery then it must be a blanket ban for all?
Have you ever watched children play, all races? Children when playing with other children do not see anything other than another child.
Creating rules that cause percieved divisions between children of different races cannot be a good thing no matter how many human rights conventions are written up.
We could all learn a lot from children.
We could all learn a lot from children.We could learn that we are all human for a start.
So you agree that if there is a ban on jewellery then it must be a blanket ban for all?
Have you ever watched children play, all races? Children when playing with other children do not see anything other than another child.
Creating rules that cause percieved divisions between children of different races cannot be a good thing no matter how many human rights conventions are written up.
I don't think there should ever have been a blanket ban in any school.........and frankly can't understand why it has become such an issue.
And I don't think for a minute that the lassie sitting next to me wearing a steel bracelet would have elicited any comment at all from me..........because I'd have thought of it AS jewelery............not a declaration of faith.
I am of the opinion that what makes it difficult for all people in the UK to integrate, particularly at school level are those people who think that the easiest way to get rid of a problem is to ban it..........rather than let it go and simply accept it within the wider context..........in this case, the wearing of jewelery.
I don't think there should ever have been a blanket ban in any school.........and frankly can't understand why it has become such an issue.
And I don't think for a minute that the lassie sitting next to me wearing a steel bracelet would have elicited any comment at all from me..........because I'd have thought of it AS jewelery............not a declaration of faith.
I am of the opinion that what makes it difficult for all people in the UK to integrate, particularly at school level are those people who think that the easiest way to get rid of a problem is to ban it..........rather than let it go and simply accept it within the wider context..........in this case, the wearing of jewelery.The problem is those that think it is easiest to ban a percieved problem then allow it to be over-ridden because someone is of a differnet faith. Either blanket ban the wearing of jewellery or allow it for all o matter what faith you succumb to.
We are not too far appart in our opinions but it takes a lot of 'discussion' to find that out, such is life.
The problem is those that think it is easiest to ban a percieved problem then allow it to be over-ridden because someone is of a differnet faith. Either blanket ban the wearing of jewellery or allow it for all o matter what faith you succumb to.
We are not too far appart in our opinions but it takes a lot of 'discussion' to find that out, such is life.
I don't think that jewellery should ever have been banned.
I can't see any problem at all if children know their parents can/can't afford big bucks to decorate themselves.
In fact, the banning of jewellery is just what has led to the current furore...........while if there had been nbo ban, the girl could have worn what she liked without any problems.
The PC brigade has a lot to answer for.
It is about time that we accepted that our children have to live in the real world.........the one where proper qualifications are necessary.......the one where employers don't actually care what is appropriate or not..........just what is expedient...........and the one where it doesn't matter what you wear as long as you get the job done.
Oddquine in the real world there are plenty of jobs which have a dress code and jewellery, or the removal of it, may be part of that! These codes may be for very real reasons too!
I don't think that jewellery should ever have been banned.
I can't see any problem at all if children know their parents can/can't afford big bucks to decorate themselves.
In fact, the banning of jewellery is just what has led to the current furore...........while if there had been nbo ban, the girl could have worn what she liked without any problems.
The PC brigade has a lot to answer for.
It is about time that we accepted that our children have to live in the real world.........the one where proper qualifications are necessary.......the one where employers don't actually care what is appropriate or not..........just what is expedient...........and the one where it doesn't matter what you wear as long as you get the job done.Of course jewellery should not be banned and this is what has caused the problem.
By allowing one child to circumvent the rules has caused there to be a divide between the children that attend this school.
Adults and their good intentions have caused insurmountable problems for another generation and so it continues.
The only way to be 100% fair is for a blanket ban on all religous symbols OR 100% acceptance of religious symbols. After all if we are to be fair to everyone then the same rules should apply to everyone.
It seems the PC brigade just love to jump on the bandwagon and accuse people of being anti-something or another. But this is what causes antogonism between people. If the "majority" of people see the "minority" get special treatment then this causes friction between fractions. The "majority" then feel that they are being "pushed aside" in favour of minorities,this causes antagonism. So to conclude it should be 100% for EVERYONE!
percy toboggan
01-Aug-08, 19:59
The day that all UK emigrants go to other countries to live and bother to learn the language of the country they have chosen.......and don't form little UK enclaves where they don't actually have to interact with the natives.......then come back to me and bleat about other religions/races not integrating.
Your words seem to indicate that I have anything else but contempt for such people, and their 'enclaves' Kindly do not put words into my mouth.
I do not 'bleat' either , for I am not a sheep. Black, or otherwise. Woolly perhaps according to some, but that I can live with.
Incidentally , travel broadens ones horizons, and you really do need to travel more. Frankly, it's hard for me to believe in this day and age someone of your age can have travelled so little
teenybash
01-Aug-08, 20:02
The only way to be 100% fair is for a blanket ban on all religous symbols OR 100% acceptance of religious symbols. After all if we are to be fair to everyone then the same rules should apply to everyone.
It seems the PC brigade just love to jump on the bandwagon and accuse people of being anti-something or another. But this is what causes antogonism between people. If the "majority" of people see the "minority" get special treatment then this causes friction between fractions. The "majority" then feel that they are being "pushed aside" in favour of minorities,this causes antagonism. So to conclude it should be 100% for EVERYONE!
Well spoken.........................
Oddquine in the real world there are plenty of jobs which have a dress code and jewellery, or the removal of it, may be part of that! These codes may be for very real reasons too!
There is of course the possibility that the ban was brought in for the pupils safety.........take the example of technical subjects such as metalwork, woodwork or electronics or even home economics. Thre are a good many reasosn for asking kids not to wear jewelery for their own good. You could argue that a ban could exist for pupils attending those subject classes but imaging the wasted time by teachers enforcing it!
I certainly know that in my industry jewelery, ties etc are a big no-no. I don't know anyone who has a problem with it and many of them are of a (various) religious bent.
Welcomefamily
02-Aug-08, 08:53
One of the biggest causes of bullying in the UK is kids who dont fit in, dont have the right gear? the right trainers. Part of being adolescent is developing your own ideas and trends which have changed yearly since the 1960s. Putting jewellery into this equation will only cause grief as their will be the has and the has nots. As for kids not being worried if their parents cant afford an item, ask any kid who has been bullyed.
Having spent many years working with kids who have had problems, I think school uniform should be basic cheap black trousers or skirts and white shirt or blouse. Possibly a school tie should be the only item that schools can get a backhander to aid the budget defict.
Thus the uniform is totally affordable so there is no reason why ever one cant wear it. No jewellery except a single stud ear ring.
Kids are individual personalities irregarless of what they are wearing.
percy toboggan
02-Aug-08, 16:21
Personally, I'd dress all kids in navy blue boiler suits for school until the age of thirteen, when a smarter, ,more fashionable uniform could kick in. The only adornment to these boiler suits would be merit badges for hard work, and sporting prowess, or good behaviour in class. Those who mis-behaved would have to wear white boiler suits for a week...because they'd look ridiculous, or like bakers !
Absolutely no ear-rings though...oh dear...in an ideal world why would one allow those?
:-P
Personally, I'd dress all kids in navy blue boiler suits for school until the age of thirteen, when a smarter, ,more fashionable uniform could kick in. The only adornment to these boiler suits would be merit badges for hard work, and sporting prowess, or good behaviour in class. Those who mis-behaved would have to wear white boiler suits for a week...because they'd look ridiculous, or like bakers !
Absolutely no ear-rings though...oh dear...in an ideal world why would one allow those?
:-PHow about pink boiler suits for the lads?[lol]
Personally, I'd dress all kids in navy blue boiler suits for school until the age of thirteen, when a smarter, ,more fashionable uniform could kick in. The only adornment to these boiler suits would be merit badges for hard work, and sporting prowess, or good behaviour in class. Those who mis-behaved would have to wear white boiler suits for a week...because they'd look ridiculous, or like bakers !
Absolutely no ear-rings though...oh dear...in an ideal world why would one allow those?
:-P
...and give them a little red book with useful quotes in it......?
Live and let live, who gives a toss what people wear. Does it mean that diabetics or asthmatics shouldn't be allowed to wear sos bracelets. There's more to be worrying about like are they carrying knives than a bit of old tat on their wrist.
If u have foriegn people that have certain beliefs on what they believe and what the wear and who they behave thats fine its up to them but they should have thought of all this before they moved into uk when a foriegner moves into uk that have to live by the uk rules and the way of life and if there not happy they have the same right as everyone else to leave the uk its that simple.And schools have rules that apply to everyone and kids should obey them its all part of disiplin on how to behave and if u let them break the rules or change the rules what like are they going to be when they leave school and start working.
Welcomefamily
03-Aug-08, 07:56
We could always bring back national service for all of those who will miss our new school uniforms, and new codes of conduct, I happy with boiler suits, forget the little red book. ;)
Then for all 16 to 20 years old unless they are excellent at school in at least one subjects and capable of getting a high degree in it (to encourage social diversity in accademics) or sport, then its four years national service either in the forces, the community or local government. This would lower unemployment and create a work culture and place an emphasis on community relationships and create a national idenity.
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