View Full Version : Breeding Exercise and Diet.
Roughshooter
26-Jul-08, 10:22
I have been reading threads on this site for some time now, on all three of the title topics, so here for what its worth is my take on them all.
Lets deal with them in order from the title.
Breeding
There are 3 kinds of breeder.
Breeders who breed from dogs that have the best blood line match up to the breed standard and who show up to Crufts level, they also breed working dogs, they have the best interest of the dog at heart so I will call the Professional breeders.
No 2 on my list is the kennel breeder who breeds dogs not to Crufts standard, but are good enough to show (a few will make crufts) but most go on to make great family pets, Semi Professional.
Last but not least is the breeders who breed from home just because their dog is great with the kids other animals etc they breed to produce another just like it, when they cant sell them the end up put to sleep or in rescue.
All 3 breed for money all 3 will disagree with me but it true like it or lump it.
A good dog from a Professional breeder will fetch £1000s and even the last on the list can expect a few £100. All try and breed for nil hip/eye/elbow scores, great but what about temperament? whats the point of a dog with perfect scores if when you try and pet it, it amputates a finger or two or attacks ever other dog it sees? Temperament should be a major consideration in any dog.
Exercise
A lot has been written about excerise in dogs agains here is my take. A puppy when leaving is mother at 7,8,10,12 or 14 weeks whichever the breeder lets them go at would with me start basic training, sit, stay, down and recall walks would be (subject to its completed Jabs) around 10mins for a 14wk old and increasing weekly at 6mths the dog would be in retreiving training swimming and jumping about 2ft fences walks would now be at least 30mins to 45mins. by 12mths I would hope to have a fully trained dog with exercise of 2hrs plus daily, and I have never had a problem with any dog be it Yorkie, Westie, German Shepherd, Pointer, Spaniel, Collie, Lab or Dane.
Diet
This again to my mind is personal choice you pay your money and take your choice from Raw food to the tinned and complete foods, who produces them and there methods are a whole new ball game but it is no differant than the test done on animals for makeup, shampoo and drugs as I said a new ball game and thread. So with food you pay your money and take your pick.
LAST of all a little about me. I have had the fortune to have been in the company of dogs for 45yrs work and play and so like to think I know what I m talking about, now I will read with interest other peoples comments to this post.
Roughshooter
26-Jul-08, 14:23
Thats just what it is..... And your point is?
Thats just what it is..... And your point is?
i refuse to go there...it would only make me VERY cross.so no taker this time.
buggyracer
26-Jul-08, 16:47
what about the breeder who breeds a working breed and breeds for working abillity and doesnt give a jot about a show? i dont see that in your list?
shows and showing have ruined many working breeds.
Sorry Roughshooter but I won't disagree wth you on anything though I might wish to tweek a few points. What it all boils down to is you get what you pay for.
I have been around dogs all my life and working with them for over thirty years and get really mad at these ' I read it all so I know' types.
Sorry Roughshooter but I won't disagree wth you on anything though I might wish to tweek a few points. What it all boils down to is you get what you pay for.
I have been around dogs all my life and working with them for over thirty years and get really mad at these ' I read it all so I know' types.
very well put ,veekay
I like these kind of posts they tax my brain, and I am all up for sensible discussion and hearing other peoples opinions, however radical. That is what gets the grey matter going, although I usually prefer these arguments oops sorry discussions over a glass of vino but I will have one myself.
Anyway my tuppence worth: I always wonder why people breed, what is their ultimate goal at the end of the day. I feel that the majority of the answers will be to improve or maintain their breed standard whether working or showing. Then I would think that if your dog never became a champion would you still breed knowing that there were others out there better. I am really unsure of this as I have never bred and never will, and I am genuinely interested in even how they feel when the puppies go to new homes..
Anyway I think that you missed a couple of types of breeders on your post and it is the puppy farmers and the accidental fido got caught with rover type. I believe that most breeders care about their dogs but puppy farmers most defiantly don’t.
I am getting a new dog next year and it will probably be a puppy and I will ensure it has a history free from genetic problems and it has a champion’s pedigree and then I will neuter it. If, however, the right badly bred puppy of my breed choice comes into rescue then I will offer that a home instead. I hope that makes sense.
As for the other points in exercise and diet – well I think that we all agreed, hopefully, that using common sense and researching your breed is paramount on the exercise issue. I do appreciate that people take on Heinz pups and research is difficult nay impossible if no history is known. As for diet I researched what I feed and I am happy and my dogs are happy and healthy.
Roughshooter
28-Jul-08, 09:37
Sorry Roughshooter but I won't disagree wth you on anything though I might wish to tweek a few points. What it all boils down to is you get what you pay for.
I have been around dogs all my life and working with them for over thirty years and get really mad at these ' I read it all so I know' types.
I hope you are not classing me in the " I read it all so I know" group.
47 years living training working and breeding dogs and still doing so today So I wouls say that I may be a little outside that box.
The comments about shows and showing and working breeds I am not sure I understand what you are saying but I will add my throughts if you can expand a little.
I am also up for a goo debate if some one wants to start something???
From the way you write about this subject there is no way I would class you as a 'read it so I know it' sort of person. I was only disagreeing with the fact that I wouldn't disagree with you ( read your post and you will see my meaning)
As for up for a good debate you have said too much of sense to be able to cause a debate but I do look forward to sometime when the 'read it' lot get on their high horses and you debate with them!
i sometimes find that people who rant about how long they have had animals for(well dog and horse people)are quite often not necessarily the best owners as they think they know everything and are quite often unwilling to accept new things,esp when it comes to health matters.they seem to think that things people did 50 years ago cannot be wrong!i dont mean any of you people,but thats what iv found anyway.
iv no idea what the first post is all about?do you think you're writing a book?cause if you are you cant really generalise an animal that easily.
i wont dictate how long iv had dogs,or profess to be an expert,they were all much loved family pets,well bred so i basically knew what i was getting,and all well exercised and fed,though not quite so discaplined as your exercise regime.they were all labs and were all diferent!my best one,well he was the one i would trust the most and was truly a friend,would never of coped with that.i took him to obedience classes(the only dog i took)and was told he was too immature to train,this wasnt a bad thing or a fault,it was just that he could do most things but didnt have the attention span to do more,nor would he leave my side,or stay,as he just wanted to be with me.
this was lovely,and maybe why i thought so much of him.
i still have labs and am still learning that they arent the same.i also have a basett,and they are certainly trainable but totally diferent,and they should never have all that exercise untill about the age of one.
Roughshooter
30-Jul-08, 09:56
50yrs ago training was done the only way people knew how by beating the dog with a stick, I am glad to say that we have moved on from that type of training and anyone using it should face the full force of the law and of course the dogs jaws.
Yes I have been around dogs 40yrs plus but I have never said I know it all as each dog and training session are never the same. Health of my dogs or dogs in my care is always my first concern, as it should be with all owners (sometimes this is not the case) Other threads have stated issuses about health and it seems people have issuses with exercise again I will dabate it if you care to start a thread.
You say you dont understand the first post yet you have posted here I find that strange, as you seem to have views on what you dont understand, by your own addmission. Generalise an animal I don't its about Breeders NOT animals, but you can generalise an animal, Dogs Cats Horses are general terms for an animal are they not?
porshiepoo
30-Jul-08, 10:31
50yrs ago training was done the only way people knew how by beating the dog with a stick, I am glad to say that we have moved on from that type of training and anyone using it should face the full force of the law and of course the dogs jaws.
Yes I have been around dogs 40yrs plus but I have never said I know it all as each dog and training session are never the same. Health of my dogs or dogs in my care is always my first concern, as it should be with all owners (sometimes this is not the case) Other threads have stated issuses about health and it seems people have issuses with exercise again I will dabate it if you care to start a thread.
You say you dont understand the first post yet you have posted here I find that strange, as you seem to have views on what you dont understand, by your own addmission. Generalise an animal I don't its about Breeders NOT animals, but you can generalise an animal, Dogs Cats Horses are general terms for an animal are they not?
My main problem with your first post Roughshooter is that you seem to have a 'one solution fits all' type of attitude toward your training. That's perfectly fine if that is what you have found works but IMO you have to be flexible toward the needs and breed of the dog.
For instance, you say that you would expect a dog to fully trained by the age of 12 months and in that 'fully trained' description you include, sit, down and jumping.
For a start, there is absolutely no way on this earth that I would expect a Dane to be adept at jumping any kind of height by the age of 12 months, I'd be extremely concerned about bone / ligament problems.
For my Danes, the 'sit' and 'down' are absolute no-no's (and are to many show people - although not all) as I cannot think of anything worse happening in the show ring. My Danes were all trained to 'stand'.
I have trained show dogs as well as attended advanced obedience with the GSDs and I have to say that in my experience (may be a fluke) the dogs that I've show trained have been as obedient as the dogs that were obedience trained. i.e. They walked to heel, they keep at my pace regardless, they are socialised with other dogs etc etc.
What I'm trying to say is that IMO it works better to work with the requirements of the breed and the work (if any) that the dog will be used for. Flexibility is paramount as I believe that such rigidity in a dogs training can lead to problems not only with the dogs but with your ability to work around problems.
I completely agree that diet is down to preference and is dependant on an individual dogs needs.
I bought my pups up on Royal Canin and at forty quid a bag it wasn't exactly cheap, however I have since found that Wagg complete puts weight on and keeps it on where others haven't been able to. Moving to a colder region also meant experimenting with diet and the worst one I found for my Danes was Pedigree Professional - they were sick and squitty.
I would just like to say though that your comment with regards to all breeders only being in it for the money has to be one of the most ignorant statements I've ever heard.
I had a litter of Dane pups, purely for the reason of wanting to breed my own show dog. I went into it knowing that if I wanted the best care and food for my bitch and her pups that I wouldn't make money - and I didn't, not a penny.
Out of 9 pups, I kept 2, 1 went to the stud dog owner as well as the cost of 1 to the stud dog owner and 1 had to be PTS after weeks of expensive tests. The remaining 4 were sold but believe me they barely covered the cost of expensive food, 24/7 puppy care for 2 weeks, vets visits before, during and after birth, worming of pups, the tests on the one we tried to save, Dew claw removal, fuel costs to see new homes and/or deliver pups etc etc.
Seriously, we're not all motivated by some ill-conceived idea that dog breeding makes big money.
Roughshooter
30-Jul-08, 12:45
My post states that a puppy from a breeder would start training with me at the age it left the breeder sit stay down and recall, at 12mths Yes I would expect to have a fully trained dog in all of these if not sooner.
Jumping all of my dogs have jumped inclueding my dane who was beaten badly by his owners from a pup and I took him in instead of putting him to sleep, after several months he started along with my other dogs jumping he was never trained to do it.
You will also see in another of my posts that I state that each dog and training session are never the same so to say I have the same approach to all is incorrect.
Most breeders do it for money, very few are like you say you are. Breeders who breed for show strive to get CC and BOB and BIS then move into shows like Crufts on completion they can then breed from champions and offer studs claiming fees etc this is how breeding works and pays, the few like yourself often end up out of pocket and with puppies they cant sell which then end up in rescue or being PTS something which happens on a daily basis, breeding the rights, wrongs and the good bits is a whole new thread, which if and when one is started I will follow and add to with interest.
porshiepoo
30-Jul-08, 14:50
My post states that a puppy from a breeder would start training with me at the age it left the breeder sit stay down and recall, at 12mths Yes I would expect to have a fully trained dog in all of these if not sooner.I know that is what you said. :confused What I am saying is that you appear to have a very rigid regime that you "expect" all and every breed to conform to regardless of the individual needs of the breed.
Jumping all of my dogs have jumped inclueding my dane who was beaten badly by his owners from a pup and I took him in instead of putting him to sleep, after several months he started along with my other dogs jumping he was never trained to do it.You do not need to defend your position on jumping by letting us know that you rescue dogs, therefore your intentions must be honorable.
Perhaps I should swap the word 'trained' (which incidentally was your word) to conditioned, to jump then. Either way, any serious Dane owner would know that this breed - being a large, fast growing breed - requires alot of care and consideration to its developing bones and ligaments.
I am not suggesting that all Danes should not jump, they're actually very good at it, but there is a time in a Danes growth where that kind of activity should be not encouraged.
You will also see in another of my posts that I state that each dog and training session are never the same so to say I have the same approach to all is incorrect.As I said in my original post, I was commenting on your comments in your 1st and opening post, where you state that you would have a fully trained dog by the age of 12 months - regardless of breed.
Most breeders do it for money, very few are like you say you are. Breeders who breed for show strive to get CC and BOB and BIS then move into shows like Crufts on completion they can then breed from champions and offer studs claiming fees etc this is how breeding works and pays, the few like yourself often end up out of pocket and with puppies they cant sell which then end up in rescue or being PTS something which happens on a daily basis, breeding the rights, wrongs and the good bits is a whole new thread, which if and when one is started I will follow and add to with interest.You obviously mingle in the wrong circles then. I know of many dog breeders that breed simply to be able to show a dog that they have bred themselves. I also know of many dog breeders who haven't made a penny from breeding.
You claim "Breeders who breed for show strive to get CC and BOB and BIS then move into shows like Crufts". Where does that fact come from?
Again, I bred purely to be able to show a dog that I had bred and because I didn't like what was available elsewhere at the time. I wanted a dog and a bitch that I felt were as close to the breed standard as is realistic and that I would not feel ashamed to take in the ring.
I did not breed or show with CC's in mind and in actual fact it would have been very naiive of me to have thought that I would have gotten any CC or even RCC no matter how good the dog, until I had a few years showing under my belt or there was a face at the end of the lead.
I very quickly qualified for Crufts and did very well in our class (2nd place) which automatically qualified us for the following year, however I decided not to go the following year. Why? Because I wanted to show my dogs and enjoy the experience, Crufts came very quickly for me and wasn't something I had ever imagined I would be attending. Personally I prefer the more Low-Key breed champ shows or the local open shows, and incidentally, in the circles that I mingle in I am not in the minority with that preference.
Yes there are many breeders who strive to produce as many dogs as possible and many who have lost the plot along the way (as far as I am concerned) and no longer breed to produce good, foundation stock but just manage to make money at it. But to say 'all breeders are in it for the money' does a huge injustice to those of us that do it because we love the breed and don't make money at it.
Roughshooter
30-Jul-08, 19:34
I will answer your post Porshiepoo in order of your reply to my earlier post.
You need to read what is written NOT what you think I have written. It says 12mths Id HOPE to have a fully trained dog. Where does it say "all breeds"? i quote a few breeds I have never had trouble with.
Where have I said that? I didnt I said "I took him in rather than put him to sleep" Rescue I leave to the experts who do a dam good job dealing with the left overs from christmas presents, and dogs that breeders cant sell thats fact ask your local Rescue.
What type of conditioning are you saying I use then? Classical or Operant? (perhaps you may like to explain them too) for the benifit of those who do not know what they are.
Perhaps you feel I also use Shaping, Latent, Insight, Flooding or Observational again perhaps you would like to explain them all too.
So what is the problem with Danes Jumping? you have said its OK in your post. Am I wrong in having a Dane that Jumps but you are Not?
They may well be the same as you, as you now do the Low -Key Champ (interesting description) and and open shows, in fact we may well have spoken and shook hands, Small world a?
Who said it was a fact? its what I have found over the years.
So you breed then got to Crufts and could now charge more for puppies and stud fees because of your placing there, I rest my case.
Doing it for the love of the breed and Not making money, come on that will not wash with me Not after 40 plus years how ever you dress it up. Maybe I will see you at your next show?
hi again.im not sure if your post after my last one was aimed at me or not? i wasnt sure what the purpose of your first post was,was what i ment,i did understand what you said but didnt get your point.it just sounded like you was trying to make yourself sound like you knew better than the rest of us.
it did generalise breeders a bit.and if you was tring to say that a varied exercise programme and some obedience training would solve a lot of behaviour problems in many dogs then i would agree that too many people take on dogs without having the time it takes to devote to them.
i dont show my dogs,went once a long time ago and thought it was as bad if not worse than showing horses and never went back!!not because im a bad looser,but because of the people involved,i just love my dogs,and to me thats the important thing.
if you was trying to put me down by saying i shouldnt of replied to your post then carry on,i know what im doing with my animals and we are doing just fine!!
by the way,there is one thing i dont understand,what is the greatness in jumping dogs??if its a breed thing then fair enough,but if you are just going on about it because you think it makes you a more knowledgable owner then dina bother with another of your slightly cheeky replies:)
Roughshooter
30-Jul-08, 21:18
CAT,
I do not aim repies at anyone I reply to what is written. You said you did not understand what the post was about I found that strange and said so thats all.
Im glad we agree on something yes to many people get dogs without any idea of what that breed of dogs basic needs are.
What you do with your animals is up to you nice to see a happy owner
Some of the dogs I have worked with over the years have jumped another post here said that a Dane should'nt jump thats what the jumping thing is about. More knowledgeable owner than ???? Never claimed that and never will, as you can never know it all.
Cheeky replies I have no idea what you are talking about
KEEP_ON_TRUCKIN
30-Jul-08, 21:39
interesting debate.......
laugh at the hope to have fully trained by 12 months........ never ever met a JRT that was fully trained at that age......
I'm not a great trainer but I know that my dog is well looked after, loved, enjoys being snuggled up on the couch and most of all has all the space he needs to run around , sniff out rabbits, chase deer, roll in horse poop, cattle poop, deer poop, dead stuff, ditches, silage brie....etc etc etc.....
PS Cat Shan did well last night - boy does she love jumping , Marion was delighted..... can't wait for next one!!
interesting debate.......
laugh at the hope to have fully trained by 12 months........ never ever met a JRT that was fully trained at that age......
Try 12 years + in my case :lol:
KEEP_ON_TRUCKIN
31-Jul-08, 07:54
haha yeah mine is just 3 years in September so i'll give him the benefit of the doubt.....
super clever little man - but can I get him to sit?
porshiepoo
31-Jul-08, 09:03
You need to read what is written NOT what you think I have written. It says 12mths Id HOPE to have a fully trained dog. Where does it say "all breeds"? i quote a few breeds I have never had trouble with.Check out your post No14 where you say "at 12months, yes I would EXPECT to have a fully trained dog in all of these, if not sooner".
And incidentally, I was saying that it appears, judging by the various breeds you name, that you do not differentiate between breeds and their needs, ergo, one system fits all.
What type of conditioning are you saying I use then? Classical or Operant? (perhaps you may like to explain them too) for the benefit of those who do not know what they are. I'll certainly give it a go:
Operant conditioning is based on Skinners theory that behaviors are learned based on the positive or negative feeling that is felt during the behavior. If I remember correctly Skinner was the one that used rats for this research and their behavior and response during set food times. To go into it deeper would require going into the four types of operant conditioning - positive and negative reinforcement, punishment and Extinction. Should you want to go in depth into those areas, start a new thread and I'm sure there'll be many takers.:roll:
Alot of parents that use punishment and reward systems use this kind of conditioning.
Classical conditioning on the other hand is based on learning behaviours through involuntary responses and was discovered by Pavlov during his work with animals. We see this kind of conditioning with our pets everyday - when the doorbell rings and they automatically bark as they've learned it means someone visiting the house or the sound of you picking up your lead for dog walking.
Just to clarify, Operant conditioning is voluntary response, Classical conditioning is involuntary responses.
Perhaps you feel I also use Shaping, Latent, Insight, Flooding or Observational again perhaps you would like to explain them all too.
So what is the problem with Danes Jumping? you have said its OK in your post. Am I wrong in having a Dane that Jumps but you are Not? Crikey, lots of questions there. I wouldn't really like to explain them all as they would take a heck of a lot of time and really would bore people that just aren't interested. But, as I said before, if you're interested then start a new thread and that would be a different matter.
No problem at all with adult Danes jumping. They're actually very good at it and probably enjoy it as much as the next dog.
Puppies and young dogs are a different matter entirely though. Danes bones and ligaments grow at astonishing rates and during this stage of a Danes life many people believe that it is important not to cause any unnecessary trauma to the already vulnerable areas. Great Danes can suffer from many bone / ligament problems during puppy / young stages i.e HOD, OCD, Pano, most of which are caused during these stages of rapid bone and ligament growth. I'm not suggesting that jumping can or will cause these problems but most Dane owners know of the possible problems (which are very common unfortunately) and do whatever they can to minimize the risk.
They may well be the same as you, as you now do the Low -Key Champ (interesting description) and and open shows, in fact we may well have spoken and shook hands, Small world a?Compared to Crufts, they are Low-key. Like it or lump it.
I don't 'now' do them, I started out doing them and much prefer them/
So you breed then got to Crufts and could now charge more for puppies and stud fees because of your placing there, I rest my case.You know so little but apparently have so much to say!
Firstly, I bred 1 litter of Great Danes approx 6 years ago.
The dog I qualified for Crufts with did exceptionally well in the show ring and yes, I could have charged great amounts for stud fees as he was a fantastic example of his breed, however a) I chose not to and he was never used and b) we lost him in March this year.
Next, my placing at Crufts would not have done that much toward him being used as a stud - believe it or not. If there was a 'face' on the end of the lead campaigning him that may have been a different story but as I said before, I just enjoyed showing.
Finally, I do not intend to have any Dane litters in the future - I had my reasons for the that one litter and in the future I'd leave the expense and hassle to those who actually want to do it.
Doing it for the love of the breed and Not making money, come on that will not wash with me Not after 40 plus years how ever you dress it up. Maybe I will see you at your next show?It is your prerogative to be so cynical, but it doesn't change the fact that I bred 1 litter for that reason.
I could have bred and bred Great Danes if I'd wanted to and if I compromised on the care, feed and vet care then I'd probably have made money, especially if I turned out 2 to 3 litters a year. However, my reasons for the 1 litter have been explained already. Believe it or don't believe it - your choice.
Nope, you'll not see me any time soon as my last Dane died in March. Maybe a few years time when I've got another one though.............who knows!
Roughshooter
02-Aug-08, 08:30
Firstly Just let me say how sorry I am to hear you lost you Dane in March I think everyone knows that pain all too well.
Very well done on explaining conditioning, is nice to know that when a person has accused you of something they do have an idea what they are talking about. You didnt however mention Watson and Rayner who also carried out test in 1920,and its a shame you didnt give a brief outline on the others. You should also note that Skinners View is, Punishment it is NOT the opposite of reward.
So we now agree then? Danes can jump.
I know so little.
Thank you I'm glad you agree with me you never know it all.
So much to say.
Thanks again, Yes you are right I have in reply to people who say, this cant be done, you should not feed this, its bad for dogs to have yearly Jabs, etc etc.
Cynical.
Yep right again if thats what you want to call it.
I am not going to start a new thread if there IS any interest in this type of thing and a thread is started I will read with interest and comment if required.
One last note, In your summary of me "Know so little, So much to say and Cynical" you for got to add, "Honorable" for my rescue work!.
I would just like to clear that up, I do NOT rescue dogs or run any form of Rescue, that as I have said I will leave to the experts, who do a great job.
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