Jobless to Work clearing litter

[Venture]

Seems like at last something is to be done about those who claim benefits long term. Not before time, if you ask me. I have nothing against those who genuinely can't work through illness, it's the ones who don't want to work and bleed the system dry that I object to. Too many young folk think the next step after leaving school is a life on hand-outs. Hopefully this will be a wake-up call for those adults who have never worked in their lives. Time to give back something in return for all those years of sky tv, decent cars and luxuries paid for by those who want to work.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7516551.stm

[Kathy@watten]

Whoopee at last an initiative I agree wholeheartily about...why should we pay for the societies scroungers who decide not to work and make a living skimming from the murky pit of benefits that is there really to help those finding themselves in a dire situation and to keep their heads above water till a new job comes a long not for those who go on it long term and enjoy luxuries that working folk can only dream about. I personally do not work by choice so I can look after my kids but I therfor accept that some little luxuries I will do without, I do not drive a new car, I don't have nights out, and designer clothing is a thing of the past....none of these I minded till I see folk in a similar situation to myself but claimants of benefit giving it large, sky tv, broadband and the nothing but the best of everything....surly this can't be right? could put folk off being hardworking and turn our society into a lasy bunch of lay abouts

[Melancholy Man]

Good one, the Brown. Days to go to Glasgow East, and you come out with this. Are all 11,000 unemployed there idlers?

[fingalmacool]

Good idea, but at what cost, there are good law abiding people doing this job already, what happens to them, as we all know the councils will cut anything to save money. As it stands just now the criminal justice boys cant do any work that will take work away from local employers, so I think that it needs to be thought out a bit more than just picking up litter, cleaning the local beaches is a start and then cleaning the ditches of rubbish on our main roads, chain gang like would do it for me.:confused

[Melancholy Man]

Sounds like the perfect recipe for a lot of striking bin-men!

[Margaret M.]

Finally some common sense -- I think it is a great idea! Perhaps this will give the able bodied, who simply have no desire to work, more incentive to find a job.

[hotrod4]

There are too many milking the system, alot who have "blue badges" but are fit and able to use a gym on a daily basis, but they arent fit to work!!.
I am not saying that all blue badge people are like that, its just some "put it on" which makes it seem that way.
I know of one guy who gets a free car a blue badge, isnt able to work but is fitter than I am.
Its such a shame that those who deserve it dont always get it but there are spongers who milk it, the quicker it is reformed the better

[Melancholy Man]

My old man's a dustman, he wears a dustman's hat and cor-blimey trousers... but now he's out of a job. Never mind, he can pick up litter until he gets another one.

[Angela]

Hmmmm. How about teaching people not to drop litter in the first place?

It always surprises me that we seem to assume litter is inevitable.:confused

[cuddlepop]

Its a brilliant idea if it works.

I remember a while back some people on community service were told they didnt have to clean the King George playing fields of stones as it would be seen to demean themselves.:confused...isnt that the whole point?

Can see the Pc growd doing something similar here.

[Melancholy Man]

I remember a while back some people on community service were told they didnt have to clean the King George playing fields of stones as it would be seen to demean themselves.:confused...isnt that the whole point?

This is a thread about long-term *unemployed*, and I don't think it bodes well to equate them with convicted criminals or express admiration in publically humiliating them. Add to that the suggestion that current full-time work for dedicated workers should be eaten into, and forced on individuals for a measly £60.50 per week, and this doesn't look like any social egalitarian project I would like to see.

My mother is approaching retirement age in Thurso, and has been long-term unemployed through no fault or lack of desire to change of her own. This is the real face of the group - although she's actually quite qualified. The hordes of lumpen oafs refusing to work are as real as chavs. And, first person to mention Polish workers doing jobs native Brits don't want for less money looses the argument. We've all heard the tales of crisis in the Highland hospitality industry as migrant workers who want to settle down and start paying for mortgages or a life beyond simple working, leave.

I'd reappraise your signature, Cuddlepop.

[pat]

Totally agree with you Angela


How about teaching people not to drop litter in the first place?

It always surprises me that we seem to assume litter is inevitable.


If they do this they may begin to get some self respect back and doing worthwhile work too and if they are being seen to be willing to work someone may employ them.

[cuddlepop]

This is a thread about long-term *unemployed*, and I don't think it bodes well to equate them with convicted criminals or express admiration in publically humiliating them. Add to that the suggestion that current full-time work for dedicated workers should be eaten into, and forced on individuals for a measly £60.50 per week, and this doesn't look like any social egalitarian project I would like to see.

My mother is approaching retirement age in Thurso, and has been long-term unemployed through no fault or lack of desire to change of her own. This is the real face of the group - although she's actually quite qualified. The hordes of lumpen oafs refusing to work are as real as chavs. And, first person to mention Polish workers doing jobs native Brits don't want for less money looses the argument. We've all heard the tales of crisis in the Highland hospitality industry as migrant workers who want to settle down and start paying for mortgages or a life beyond simple working, leave.

I'd reappraise your signature, Cuddlepop.

I was pointing out that people serving community service were "not allowed" to carry out cleaning work as it demeaned there statise so why should law abiding citizens be"expected" to clean for their benifits.:confused

I'm not judging only commenting on a series of events.

[percy toboggan]

Part of me says get the beggars workin'...
part of me says if we need litter pickers etc. then employ them full-time.

Some people are taking the wassisname out of the system and it's high-time they were brought to book.

[david]

Part of me says get the beggars workin'...
part of me says if we need litter pickers etc. then employ them full-time.

Some people are taking the wassisname out of the system and it's high-time they were brought to book.

Are their any proper litter picking jobs in Caithness? I have not seen one advertised recently. I would do this job quite happilly for a wage and I do not claim benefits nor ever in a position to do so!

[Melancholy Man]

David, I've known of three generations of skaffies! Is the lad MacIver still roaming Thurso?


I was pointing out that people serving community service were "not allowed" to carry out cleaning work as it demeaned there statise so why should law abiding citizens be"expected" to clean for their benifits.:confused

Oh, I see! Yet, the sentance had been flanked by two others which expressed support, if only it worked (and the bin-men didn't go out in strike), and derision at "the Pc brigade". So, I thought it was a reasonable enough conclusion.

Plus, another contributer to this thread has made the equivalence with the employed and law-abiding citizens. For goodness sake, we haven't had work camps in this country for 70 years! Twenty-five years ago, when a large part of the unemployed couldn't even afford part share on a bicycle, some skinhead from Chingford told them to get on one.

I've never met anyone on the bru (which, of course, is not a euphemism for state-funded alcoholism, as often thought, revealing assumptions), either short or long term, who considered it an aspiration to get a few dozen quid a week. I've tried both phases myself, including a spell with one of those lovely youth training schemes in Caithness (naming no names, but you know who you are) when, after a local firm decided I wasn't even worth their not paying me the equivalent of £1 per hour whilst timing my breaks to the minute, I was cast into the scheme's central office and left for 18 months with no advancement and, at the end of it when they realized they'd let me slip down a mousehole, I was finished with one week's notice and had to wait another month before proper benefits came. Luckily I was living with my folks, otherwise I'd have been *really* annoyed!

As Martin Carthy said:

There'll always be a happy hour
For those with money, jobs and power.
They'll never realise the hurt,
They cause to men they treat like dirt.


My old man's a dustman, he wears a dustman's hat and cor-blimey trousers...

... and he lives in a council flat. Except, he got it when he was newly-married with one kid and another on the way. He's 54 now (no way he's going to get another job now the local Potemkin village has abolished his job) and all the kids have moved out. Next week the discussion will be relocating tenants who live in too big a house.

[scorrie]

This is a thread about long-term *unemployed*, and I don't think it bodes well to equate them with convicted criminals or express admiration in publically humiliating them. Add to that the suggestion that current full-time work for dedicated workers should be eaten into, and forced on individuals for a measly £60.50 per week, and this doesn't look like any social egalitarian project I would like to see.


I agree that a clear distinction has to be made between offenders who are doing community service, and people who happen to have been out of work long term. Is there going to be any extra cash available to long-term unemployed people who would be carrying out litter-picking etc ?

Are we going to see unemployed people putting in a 40 hour week in return for £60 in benefits? That would be £1.50 an hour and illegal for any employer to pay in this country. In my mind, if there are tasks there that need doing, there should be proper jobs, with the minimum wage, at least, created.

Does anyone recall the "Job Creation" scheme in the early 80's? People were given "Jobs" in order to get them off the unemployment register. Those "Jobs" paid £40 a week if I remember correctly, i.e. Buttons

I also worked on a training scheme in the late 80's. I was based with Highland Training at the Airport Estate and worked a full week of training for £10 a week. Since I was living with a partner, I did not qualify for any other benefit than the £10 bonus that the scheme offered. I then went on a work placement in a betting office and worked a six day week for eight months at the same £10 per week. I reckon that it worked out about 20p per hour wages.

In my opinion, such schemes exist to massage figures and appease the "sponging scum" shouters of the land.

[Melancholy Man]

That would be £1.50 an hour and illegal for any employer to pay in this country.

It's what happened to me for an interim period. I'm going to pretend I didn't see the named firm in the rest of your post.

[the_count]

Being one of Caithness's LTU and being on one of the governments "over 50's back to work schemes" i see that mr brown has found yet another way to "take people off the unemployed figures" which is all he is aiming to do. Yes a highly comendable idea in principle BUT

1/ does he intend on making this a permanent solution to the unemployed, and if this is the case then is his government prepared to pay out the MININMUM HOURLY PAYRATE?? .... i think not

2/ does he intend on allowing the UNEMPLOYED people he is using to do the work the chance to LOOK FOR WORK as stipulated in the jobseekers agreement that they sign every fortnite? OOPS, thats a loophole he cant avoid .... "sorry i didn't come in but i was at an interview" that should be a good one for them to police lol

3/ does he intend on allowing the PRICELESS VOLUTARY WORK that some of the unemployed do already to be left unattended, or will he be making some sort of allowance for that also .... again i think not.

Next thing he will have the employed doing no doubt will be voluntary help
for the police maybe or perhaps traffic wardens .... owuld that be such a popular plan? .... again i think not.

So good plan in principle but ..... again I THINK NOT !!!! :D

[scorrie]

It's what happened to me for an interim period. I'm going to pretend I didn't see the named firm in the rest of your post.

No need to pretend anything. My payments were nothing to do with Highland Training, my presence there was part of a Government scheme. Even if that were not the case, there is no problem in putting a name to something that ACTUALLY occurred.

I don't get your point on the £1.50 an hour scenario. I think you need to expand on it to help people see where you are coming from on that one.

[TBH]

This is the Government's idea of a solution to dependance on welfare, what a bloody joke.
What about those that would love to have a job but have never been fortunate enough to secure one? Those that fill in countless applications but never get to the interview stage or if they did then get the old 'thanks but no thanks, we will keep your name on file'?
Those that go on all the training schemes trying to better themselves.
There seems to be a popular misconception that all long-term unemployed are nothing but scrounging scum that need trodden under foot by the self-righteous that imagine themselves to be superior.
It's can be a long way down and a hard climb back up if you lose your job, let's hope that those with delutions of grandeur realise it could be them.

[Melancholy Man]

Scorrie, as you say, your complaint was firstly with the government scheme; followed by, if I read you correctly, the betting shop which, presumably, availed itself of your labour for substantially less - if at all - than it would have had to pay a comparable employee. My grievance was specifically with the set-up of Highland Training... there, I said it... as well as my initial placement.

I didn't name it at first partly out of the fun of the moment, partly out of respect for this forum and also because I had no real complaints against individual staff members, and there is a very good chance some are reading. This was my first job and I was initially plopped into effectively a full-time position with associated responsibilities, but one for which I received £35 per 35 hour week (so, it was less than £1.50 per hour). I'd worked part time at school, and received more than that.

So, sorry folks, I didn't put in £4.25 per hour of effort each and every hour, but I did so for a lot of them; and found myself, as I hinted above, being ticked off for taking a 20 minutes break instead of 15 once. But, I don't look back with [too much] rancour. What does continue to rankle, however, is that after 18 months in the central office moving in no direction and receiving no tangible experience or suggestion of other placements - I was 18, what did I know?, although I did know enough to get dispensation for [separate] distance learning - I was relieved with just one week's notice after it was realized I'd been completely failed by the stated aims of a training agency. Not even given an emergency placement, just tossed aside.

But I can live even with that. I just get a bit annoyed again by title stories such as this.

[wifie]

Down here (Perthshire) the council manufacture the litter picking job! Big straight I drive along into Perth - one day I see the council lorries goin to the recycling plant without covers or poorly tied covers and litter flying everywhere - then in a couple of day's time half a dozen guys in hi viz pickin up the rubbish. Now is that not mental? [evil]

[TBH]

Down here (Perthshire) the council manufacture the litter picking job! Big straight I drive along into Perth - one day I see the council lorries goin to the recycling plant without covers or poorly tied covers and litter flying everywhere - then in a couple of day's time half a dozen guys in hi viz pickin up the rubbish. Now is that not mental? [evil]It's called, problem, reaction, solution.[lol]

[Melancholy Man]

As Lord Vetinari said of the rat plague following a bounty for rat tails, close the rat farms.

[JAWS]

Bring back the Work House and Flogging Round the Fleet!

[scorrie]

Scorrie, as you say, your complaint was firstly with the government scheme; followed by, if I read you correctly, the betting shop which, presumably, availed itself of your labour for substantially less - if at all - than it would have had to pay a comparable employee. My grievance was specifically with the set-up of Highland Training... there, I said it... as well as my initial placement.

I didn't name it at first partly out of the fun of the moment, partly out of respect for this forum and also because I had no real complaints against individual staff members, and there is a very good chance some are reading. This was my first job and I was initially plopped into effectively a full-time position with associated responsibilities, but one for which I received £35 per 35 hour week (so, it was less than £1.50 per hour). I'd worked part time at school, and received more than that.

So, sorry folks, I didn't put in £4.25 per hour of effort each and every hour, but I did so for a lot of them; and found myself, as I hinted above, being ticked off for taking a 20 minutes break instead of 15 once. But, I don't look back with [too much] rancour. What does continue to rankle, however, is that after 18 months in the central office moving in no direction and receiving no tangible experience or suggestion of other placements - I was 18, what did I know?, although I did know enough to get dispensation for [separate] distance learning - I was relieved with just one week's notice after it was realized I'd been completely failed by the stated aims of a training agency. Not even given an emergency placement, just tossed aside.

But I can live even with that. I just get a bit annoyed again by title stories such as this.

I had no complaint with Highland Training or the Betting Shop, I just didn't think much of a scheme that could live with the idea of me working a proper job, six days a week, for a tenner. I was given a chance to prove myself in the workplace and eventually secured a full-time job with company concerned. I feel the scheme would have worked better if there was an agreement with the employers that the person on work placement be offered a real job after three months or so, provided they were performing the duties satisfactorily.

[Aaldtimer]

Actually Melancholy Man, Martin Carthy may have sang "COAL NOT DOLE" but authorship is credited to Kay Sutcliffe and John Goss. Great song!

[Melancholy Man]

(Fair point Aaldtimer, although as a preformer of English folk, is there anything he can be said to have really said?)

I certainly don't want to seen as using this as a means to settle personal grievances as I liked all the staff and, on reflection still, continue to see them as efficient and well-intentioned: I saw lots of people pass through and go onto full-time (and paid) employment! Nor am I aware of any client companies in Caithness abusing the system, unlike elsewhere (while I was there I read of one youth trainee in England who'd been assigned to clean a chemical spill, with no training or protective clothing, which ignited and incinerted her). However, I do believe it patently failed *me*.

I'm not an insubordinate individual and have always been known to preform tasks I'm given a chance to tackle, but I am a naturally unlucky and negative sod. Failures to assert myself personally here, and in later jobs, have added to my congenital propensity to low expectations.

That said, I would have no problems believing that the reason I was finished was because putting me into a vacancy would have been recorded as someone on the roll not having been gainfully employed in almost two years. At the end, I recall being told that I should have volunteered myself. Again, I was 18/9. I'm minded of a friend who complained to his university when a certain question came up in exams despite the lecturer having only spent two slides on it. When she [the lecturer] was challenged, she replied that no-one ever answered that question, so didn't see the point in expanding! It's not really the point is it?


I feel the scheme would have worked better if there was an agreement with the employers that the person on work placement be offered a real job after three months or so, provided they were performing the duties satisfactorily.

Yeah, there is the rub indeed. Training periods can exist in any job where individuals receive a reduced rate which remains more than 10 squids, with permancy offered for satisfactory preformance.

[TBH]

The Government complain about a lack of skilled workers then why not put the time and money into training people for those jobs.
Aprenticeships gained at high School would be a great start.

[katarina]

The Government complain about a lack of skilled workers then why not put the time and money into training people for those jobs.
Aprenticeships gained at high School would be a great start.

a lot of businesses complain shy away if possible of employing apprentices because they still have to pay them for their time away at college. If a child has no intention of going on to uni - why not give them all the theory for their chosen trade in high school thus removing the need for time off work to gain that particular qualification? Even an extra year in college befor starting the trade, would encourage employers to recrute.

[TBH]

a lot of businesses complain shy away if possible of employing apprentices because they still have to pay them for their time away at college. If a child has no intention of going on to uni - why not give them all the theory for their chosen trade in high school thus removing the need for time off work to gain that particular qualification? Even an extra year in college befor starting the trade, would encourage employers to recrute.I worded that wrong, I meant apprenticeships served at school then completed at college.

[JAWS]

Aprenticeships gained at high School would be a great start.Apprenticeships were priced out of the system forty years ago. When firms were forced to pay totally unskilled apprentices almost as much as a skilled workman there was an obvious result. Besides, nobody should be condemned to doing nothing but menial jobs such as plumbing, carpentry, metal-bashing etc. they should be encouraged to go on to higher things whether they like it or not.
Condemning people to get their hands dirty is a disgraceful concept.

[TBH]

Apprenticeships were priced out of the system forty years ago. When firms were forced to pay totally unskilled apprentices almost as much as a skilled workman there was an obvious result. Besides, nobody should be condemned to doing nothing but menial jobs such as plumbing, carpentry, metal-bashing etc. they should be encouraged to go on to higher things whether they like it or not.
Condemning people to get their hands dirty is a disgraceful concept.I agree 100% Jaws.;)

[benji]

I assume that tasks offerred to people will not be limited to litter collection. If that is the case perhaps we can get some of these folks to run the council here in Aberdeen.....they could hardly do any worse than the utter wastes of space (aka council members) that have now resulted in the council withdrawing 30K of funding for a dial-a-bus scheme and other cost cutting due to the 50m that the council have lost .................................................. (sorry)

[padfoot]

Well I think IF there is a need for more street cleaners the jobs should be up for grabs and get some people off the dole permanently.

Or perhaps the police should be enforcing the littering fines.

I thought people were already put to work with an added monetary incentive, a little extra on top of benefits, to work places like Homeaid. Also back to work college courses to help long term unemployed get back into the community.

I really think that if there is work for these people to work fulltime in the community, then there should be the jobs, how is this gonna help the people who are on unemployment, wanting a job and some self respect when lots of community work is being done by people on benefits rather than being put out as a job with a decent wage and get them off the brew completely?