View Full Version : Does being PC do our kids any favours?
I freely admit I'm 60..........and I also admit I have never lived in a big city or further south than Morayshire...........so maybe I am looking at the last 50/60 years through rose coloured glasses.
But when I was a kid............cops, teachers, parents etc were respected because they were cops, teachers, parents etc.......... no "earning" of respect required.
Anyone complained to my parents about my behaviour there would be repercussions at home if justified..........and the expectation was that all other parents would react in the same way........and they did.
No children's "rights" but we did get concessions.......with an expectation of some kind of quid pro quo to earn those concessions.
No charging up to the school if your little darling had been disciplined to "sort the teacher out".
No automatic assumption that your kids are telling the truth.
Strict school uniforms only with no branded clothes/shoes allowed, even for gym.
No parking kids in front of televisions without knowing exactly what they were watching.
Regularly doing things as a family........beach, cinema, picnics, holidays, weekends away, boys brigade or ACF parents nights, transporting to football and staying to watch the game/training etc.
No bribery to do what we were obliged to do............ie...no incentives to go to school/behave........but sanctions if we didn't.
The expectation was that we would play in the immediate vicinity....and if we wanted to go elsewhere, we came and asked if it was OK, told where we were going and were given a time to get home by......and heaven help us if we were late.
Apart from necessary replacement clothes etc ..........nothing except for birthdays and Christmas............no toys etc just because we said "I want"..............in fact, an acceptance that if your parents couldn't afford the school trip, expensive requests at Christmas etc..........they couldn't afford it, so you didn't feel deprived.
But we knew exactly why we were being punished, and were not lacking in love and attention........even if we were in tangible treats.
I brought my kids up as I was brought up, and they are bringing my grandchildren up in much the same way........though they are more demonstrative than I ever was......and they can afford to give them more.....but they still expect that my grandchildren treat everyone as they would expect to be treated themselves.......and accept no as a final answer.
But it doesn't appear that this is PC any more.
Do any of you despair at the way children nowadays appear to rule the roost?
Do any of you really think that the best way to get children to behave is to cajole or bribe them......in other words.....to reward them for misbehaving?
Do any of you think that you can explain bad behaviour to a toddler .....................or even to the average teenager?
Maybe in this politically correct world I am a dinosaur but I think that this nanny state is helping to produce the feral child we see around......because we are left with no rights which subsume those of the child.
Btw..........I am not saying that this is a universal problem.................but feral children is certainly a problem which is becoming more and more prevalent..................and I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas why.
I think that it is because the PC crowd have ensured that our children have the upper hand.......and too many of us are feart to do what we know is right and will work..........even if it is not PC.
Oddquine a thought-provoking thread with good discussion from yourself.
I am not sure that I place the source of the problem at being PC as a whole - what I do worry about is the lack of responsibility demonstrated by so many.
"I can do/say anything I want without recourse" - WRONG you can say/do anything you want but you must accept the responsibility for doing it and accept the consequences of going through with it.
For example 6 months ago I witnessed a road accident between a car and a motorcyclist. I believe that the car driver took all sensible precautions and the motorcyclist was going above the speed limit for that road (fact). Now I get a letter from a "no-win-no-fee" lawyer acting for the motorcyclist...I am affraid I replied with reference that the motorcyclist should accept some of the responsibility for the accident dur to his driving and not go looking for cash.......I'll be interested if I ever hear from them again!
No, Oddquine. You are no dinosaur. This is a key factor in the attitude and behaviour of children today. This form of upbringing was instrumental in producing a society where everyone respected other people, their property and their rights. These days kids have no respect for their own property nor that of others. The manner in which they speak to each other and to their elders is clearly indicative of a society that is becoming increasingly self-centred and 'me', 'me'.
Yesterday I had a classic example of this attitude. One of my pupils (who is spoiled rotten) was incorrectly entering his logon details and started cussing and banging the desk and equipment. He started blaming the "c***" equipment and this all happened in the opening moments. It took the pupil next to him to point out that he was mis-typing the username. This was not an isolated incident!
Eventually I had to send him out and give him a telling off. On Monday I know that his mother will be phoning iin and making an official complaint about my disciplining her 'gifted and talented' son. Interestingly, she has a different attitude to his younger brother - who is an altogether nicer boy!
I believe that children do, or should have, some rights of course -such as the right not to be abused.
I didn't bring my children up as strictly as I had been brought up. I was a lot more demonstrative, gave them more physical affection and praise, and I did take the time and trouble to explain why the answer was 'no'.
The reason -when all else failed -was "because I say so....and I'm in charge." Final decision!;)
We weren't all that well off and though they did get some treats, that's what they were -treats - not everyday occurrences or things they got just because they wanted them. They also learned that privileges had to be earned and could be taken away again.
I tried to teach my kids (and I seem to have succeeded :)) to live a 'good' honest life, work hard, consider other people's feelings, and have good manners. I've tried to lead by example.
Unfortunately, a lot of parents nowadays seem to feel it's unnecessary, or even wrong, to set boundaries for their children or to discipline them in any way. It's also true to say that a good many adults are themselves rude and bad mannered and show no respect whatsoever for any kind of authority. They aren't likely to bring their kids up to be any different.
I should add that I do know plenty of well brought up children -so it can still be done!
There does seem to be an attitude now amongst too many parents that they can buy their children's love, or maybe give them what they demand just for a quiet life, and with no thought for the ultimate effect on the children of all this indulgence.
I do wonder why some people have children as they seem to regard them as a nuisance and an interference with their social/working life. I am sick of seeing young children taken into shops/supermarkets and left to do what they want - playing with items on display, knocking things over, running around. Parents either ignore them or smile sweetly as if this was perfectly acceptable.
One of my favourite books when I was young was by an author, Elizabeth Goudge, who has gone out of fashion now - she wrote with a wealth of knowledge about people but had standards and morals. This particular book, The Little White Horse, was about an orphan girl looked after by a very strict governess who whipped the girl if she misbehaved. It didn't happen often and the girl knew it was done out of love - that her governess cared not at all whether the child loved her because she loved the child so much all she cared about was the kind of adult she would become. So the child did love her becaukse she knew she was truly loved.
I'm not advocating whipping but a bit more of that attitude wouldn't do any harm however un PC.
I think it's indicative of our society in general though. The level of courtesy that adults extend towards each other has vastly degenerated. Everyone feels it is their 'right' to get their own way nowadays, whether that's on the road, in shops/hotels etc. or the work place. Noone seems to listen to the opinion of others anymore, or think they can learn from anyone else and it is quite acceptable to treat others with a total lack of respect. I never ceased to be amazed/shocked at the behaviour I've seen displayed, particularly towards older people (I was brought up to have respect for my elders). Obviously, it's normal for teenagers to rebel to a certain extent and I'm sure we all did it but it's completely out of control now. That completely unreasonable adolescent period seems to be extending into the 20's, 30's and 40's!!!
No wonder kids think it's okay to throw their toys out of the pram and get what they want: they see adults doing it all the time!!!
percy toboggan
19-Jul-08, 14:55
.......Everyone feels it is their 'right' to get their own way nowadays, whether that's on the road, in shops/hotels etc....
But loby, such a sweeping statement would mean that you do...that I do? There are plenty like us, who do not. We must not condemn 'everybody' I'm sure on reflection you'll agree that it's not quite so bad as this.
Manners maketh man...and woman. Mt grandchild returned home (she's 5) with her first school report this week and amongst much praise was the comment 'always polite' which pleased us no end. She can't be alone...we can't be alone in realising manners matter.
On the other hand there is a balance to be struck...I do not want her to be 'backward at coming forward' either, as my own children may have been when younger.
percy toboggan
19-Jul-08, 15:05
[quote=Oddquine;408665]I freely admit I'm 60..........and I also admit I have never lived in a big city or further south than Morayshire...........so maybe I am looking at the last 50/60 years through rose coloured glasses.
You may well be, but why 'freely admit' to being 60...as though it were some form of handicap?It may risk the 'rose tinted' outlook though, I freely admit. I'm 57 and my childhood was much like your own...but on the outskirts of a large metropolis.
But when I was a kid............cops, teachers, parents etc were respected because they were cops, teachers, parents etc.......... no "earning" of respect required.
Anyone complained to my parents about my behaviour there would be repercussions at home if justified..........and the expectation was that all other parents would react in the same way........and they did.
Same here
No children's "rights" but we did get concessions.......with an expectation of some kind of quid pro quo to earn those concessions.
No charging up to the school if your little darling had been disciplined to "sort the teacher out".
No automatic assumption that your kids are telling the truth.
Strict school uniforms only with no branded clothes/shoes allowed, even for gym.
No parking kids in front of televisions without knowing exactly what they were watching.
Regularly doing things as a family........beach, cinema, picnics, holidays, weekends away, boys brigade or ACF parents nights, transporting to football and staying to watch the game/training etc.
No bribery to do what we were obliged to do............ie...no incentives to go to school/behave........but sanctions if we didn't.
The expectation was that we would play in the immediate vicinity....and if we wanted to go elsewhere, we came and asked if it was OK, told where we were going and were given a time to get home by......and heaven help us if we were late.
Apart from necessary replacement clothes etc ..........nothing except for birthdays and Christmas............no toys etc just because we said "I want"..............in fact, an acceptance that if your parents couldn't afford the school trip, expensive requests at Christmas etc..........they couldn't afford it, so you didn't feel deprived.
But we knew exactly why we were being punished, and were not lacking in love and attention........even if we were in tangible treats.
I brought my kids up as I was brought up, and they are bringing my grandchildren up in much the same way........though they are more demonstrative than I ever was......and they can afford to give them more.....but they still expect that my grandchildren treat everyone as they would expect to be treated themselves.......and accept no as a final answer.
But it doesn't appear that this is PC any more.
Do any of you despair at the way children nowadays appear to rule the roost?
Yes, very much so. They are children...not little adults.
Do any of you really think that the best way to get children to behave is to cajole or bribe them......in other words.....to reward them for misbehaving?
Not the best way, but very occasionally acceptable
Do any of you think that you can explain bad behaviour to a toddler .....................or even to the average teenager?
Of course, so long as the child has a grasp of language and a concept of 'right and wrong' If they haven't then it's more than likely the parents fault.
Maybe in this politically correct world I am a dinosaur but I think that this nanny state is helping to produce the feral child we see around......because we are left with no rights which subsume those of the child.
Nanny wouldn't produce 'feral' though she might produce 'spoiled' or 'indulged' 'Feral' youth have been neglected emotionally, spiritually and parentally. I'm not excusing them. When you speak of 'feral' youth I feel these are very rare indeed away from big cities...I'd be surprised if you have much experience of 'feral 'youth. I have little myself
Btw..........I am not saying that this is a universal problem.................but feral children is certainly a problem which is becoming more and more prevalent..................and I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas why.
Largely because morons had kids, who are now raising teenagers.
I think that it is because the PC crowd have ensured that our children have the upper hand.......and too many of us are feart to do what we know is right and will work..........even if it is not PC.
What do YOU suggest?...regular thrashings, public humiliation or loads of tlc and love. I'm afraid today's 'feral' kids are a lost generation...we're into the realms of 'damage limitation' now.
There are still good parents around - I met some the other day. A polite, quiet couple with a 6-year old girl. They made sure she did not wander off, she was reminded to say thank you when given something (however small) but was not shy. Perfectly able to hold a conversation and chat with an adult she had only just met. They seemed a very happy loving family.
What a contrast to the little girl I saw in a shop recently verbally bullying another smaller girl. I thought at first they were sisters as they seemed to be together but then realised the older child belonged to a woman who took no notice beyond just once telling the child to leave the other girl alone but making no attempt to enforce it. The mother of the younger child seemed unable to protest - not surprising these days. When they left the older girl transferred her attentions to the staff in the shop - her mother being some way away and taking no notice. They looked surprised but again probably dared not say anything.
Two little girls - one brought up with loving discipline, the other with indifference.
teenybash
19-Jul-08, 21:31
I wish someone would explain just what PC is and what it is supposed to do.
As far as I can see it is turning us into beings who are afraid to speak out encase we say it the wrong way and cause offence.
Why don't we just get back to basics and teach our children good manners, how to dress and behave appropriately........why has life become so complicated?
You may well be, but why 'freely admit' to being 60...as though it were some form of handicap?It may risk the 'rose tinted' outlook though, I freely admit. I'm 57 and my childhood was much like your own...but on the outskirts of a large metropolis.
Because I am talking from the viewpoint of two generations ago...........not as someone who is a parent today.
By the time my daughter was sixteen, PC had started rearing its head..........and I found it very difficult to discipline someone who had just been given the right, by the Government, to walk out of her home and get accommodation provided by the council.......though I managed.
But the rights, without responsibilities that children have now are much greater than those available to children who felt hard done by in those days.
What do YOU suggest?...regular thrashings, public humiliation or loads of tlc and love. I'm afraid today's 'feral' kids are a lost generation...we're into the realms of 'damage limitation' now.
I never thrashed my kids......though they did get a skite on the behind where necessary after numerous warnings.
Public humiliation? If by that you mean giving them a skite on the behind if they are misbehaving in public.....then yes, I have, because they were humiliating me and themselves in public......and it worked........they went from screaming and thrashing about to sobbing fairly quietly.........but that kind of thing is not allowed nowadays.
Disciplining your children appropriately and with explanations is showing tlc and love............because a child who has never been disciplined and has no conception of self discipline is a child who is going to have serious problems as an adult.
I'd have rathered my kids hated me, but grew up to be reasonable sensible and grounded people than they thought of me as their best friend....but were inadequately equipped for the real world.
Luckily, my kids are reasonable, sensible, grounded professional people with their own families which they are bringing up in much the same way as they were.............and, while I don't think I am their best friend, I am the person they come to with problems or for advice...........so the old fashioned ways did work............but they are no longer PC.
I have seen a friend drag their offspring off a bus stance barrier because the bus was due in so it was dangerous, but he refused to come off.........only to be charged with assault by the police because they were noticed on CCTV.
And then they wonder why children are hard to control!
Well..DUH!!!!!!!!! :roll:
I wish someone would explain just what PC is and what it is supposed to do.
As far as I can see it is turning us into beings who are afraid to speak out encase we say it the wrong way and cause offence.
Why don't we just get back to basics and teach our children good manners, how to dress and behave appropriately........why has life become so complicated?
Because everybody but the parents know best! [evil]
teenybash
20-Jul-08, 01:20
Because everybody but the parents know best! [evil]
Maybe we need our Parent Power back........:eek:
percy toboggan
20-Jul-08, 08:28
[/b]..... my kids are ..... professional people ...
I understood all of your post but this expression 'professional' has puzzled me for some time Oddquine.
Could you please define it's meaning in your view?
I understood all of your post but this expression 'professional' has puzzled me for some time Oddquine.
Could you please define it's meaning in your view?
Why? :confused
You can let it mean what you want....it isn't an integral or important part of the post made..........just another adjective. :roll:
percy toboggan
20-Jul-08, 15:08
Why? :confused
You can let it mean what you want....it isn't an integral or important part of the post made..........just another adjective. :roll:
You've answered my question anyway...'it's not important'
Thanks, despite your rolling eyeballs.
Oddquine, don't think that you may be considered out of touch with the correct way to bring children up because of your age.
I am roughly the same age as you. There was a large age difference between my parents and when I was born my father was forty-five, literally old enough to have been my grandfather. I certainly noticed no discernable difference between his attitude towards bringing up children and that of the parents of my childhood friends whose fathers were far younger.
There was, or certainly seemed to be, a general level which was deemed to be how children should be expected to behave. OK, some parents were more strict and some less so than others and, although I never came across them, I'm sure a few carried physical punishment too far.
I was brought up in a North of England Mill Town in a normal working class area, certainly nothing posh enough to be considered "sheltered" from reality.
The problem has arisen that all parents are now considered to be, unless kept under strict control, likely to carry out extreme forms of violent punishment towards their children. Even the slightest tap on the leg or a raised voice is considered as a sign of the first huge step on the slippery slope to violent beatings.
The PC Brigade are of the opinion that they, and only they, can be trusted to decide how children should be taught to become "Responsible Citizens" and without their strict control the rest of society will descend into vicious brutality against defenceless, innocent babies.
Their sense of moral decency is far more advanced than we poor decadent souls who, but for their guidance, would descend into the depth of intolerance and violence to the weak and those less able to defend themselves against us.
George Brims
20-Jul-08, 22:28
There are a few different interpretations of "PC" going around here. Maybe I can clarify things a bit. The term was originally coined to describe the enforcement of a code of conduct that could roughly be described as "don't offend anyone" (an impossible task but a lofty goal). For instance the use of derogatory racial slurs in normal conversation was frowned upon. Words that were taught in English class up until the 1960s were now dropped. In general PC was a left-leaning movement, based on trying to promote racial and religious tolerance, but it could be applied from a right-slanted standpoint too (not describing strongly conservative people as fascists or Nazis for instance), though those on the right were usually the most against the whole idea. Mostly because they wanted to retain the "right" to be rude to or about other people, to be blunt about it
Then things got really silly. One of the London borough councils (possibly Islington) changed the menus in their staff canteen to read coffee with milk or coffee without milk, since "black" and "white" were politically loaded terms. One employee's response was to requisition two dozen ballpoint pens "without milk". I would like to meet that person!
Now due to drivel like that the term has become completely #####################ized (yes I know that's not PC, so apologies to any reader born out of wedlock). The way it is being flung about here is "anything about modern life I don't like." PC has nothing to do with good or bad parenting, other than the fact that the wee 6 year old mentioned above who was being brought up to be polite would on close examination be found to be, in the earliest and best sense of the term, PC!
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