View Full Version : Multiculturalism
Has the influx of foreign nationals into Britain made any difference, good or bad, to your life?
Has the influx of foreign nationals into Britain made any difference, good or bad, to your life?
TBH, Mainly good IMO
Examples
Italians for Ice cream Chippies and Pizzas they have been here for years see the Cardosi family
Chinese, for their take aways
Members of the Indian sub continent, for running all the "Jenny Awe Thing" stores where I can get a pint of milk and half loaf at 10pm, also their take aways too.
Polish, for being the bonniest / good mannered barmaids in my local, and the guys and lassies for being among the nicest drivers of Edinburgh Tours buses.
I need more time to think, I will add to this list soon.
TBH, Mainly good IMO
Examples
Italians for Ice cream Chippies and Pizzas they have been here for years see the Cardosi family
Chinese, for their take aways
Members of the Indian sub continent, for running all the "Jenny Awe Thing" stores where I can get a pint of milk and half loaf at 10pm, also their take aways too.
Polish, for being the bonniest / good mannered barmaids in my local, and the guys and lassies for being among the nicest drivers of Edinburgh Tours buses.
I need more time to think, I will add to this list soon.Change is a hard thing for lots of people to, pardon the pun, digest, but things are getting better now.
percy toboggan
18-Jul-08, 21:21
Has the influx of foreign nationals into Britain made any difference, good or bad, to your life?
Entirely negative if I'm honest.
Not one positive aspect to the multi-cult.
Of course the advent of the jet-engune, on top of the steam-ship meant the world would get smaller. Whilst that can be a good thing the cheek by jowel existence of so many different cultures is a failed experiment.
When the importation of umpteen plus differing cultures distorts the sociological balance of a very small island something will eventually upset the mix.
In the laboratory failed experiments sometimes 'blow-up'.
I'm not intrinsically opposed to a multi-ethnic mono-culture, but some of these minority groups are far too strident to accept that. Stridence is not a British trait.
Entirely negative if I'm honest.
Not one positive aspect to the multi-cult.
Of course the advent of the jet-engune, on top of the steam-ship meant the world would get smaller. Whilst that can be a good thing the cheek by jowel existence of so many different cultures is a failed experiment.
When the importation of umpteen plus differing cultures distorts the sociological balance of a very small island something will eventually upset the mix.
In the laboratory failed experiments sometimes 'blow-up'.
I'm not intrinsically opposed to a multi-ethnic mono-culture, but some of these minority groups are far too strident to accept that. Stridence is not a British trait.A very tentative post Percy. The world has indeed gotten smaller in terms of speed and ease of travel so what do we do? We do need new blood so to speak but what criteria should be in place for the acceptance of migrants into our respective countries?
percy toboggan
18-Jul-08, 21:43
....We do need new blood so to speak...
what for exactly. To do skivvy jobs for fat cat employers?
I'd rather live poor and secure in the country I grew up in than share it with ingrate descendants of the original arrivals post WW2, plus a load more who have shipped in comparatively recently...one way or another.
Of course many who have come are grateful, they blend in well. In the final analysis though the collective have driven down wages, sucked up housing stock and are beginning to create a fragmented society with no identity, or collective soul. We have always been divided by class it's true...now you can can add race, language and culture to the splits. Britain is fast losing a collective sense of self.
what for exactly. To do skivvy jobs for fat cat employers?
I'd rather live poor and secure in the country I grew up in than share it with ingrate descendants of the original arrivals post WW2, plus a load more who have shipped in comparatively recently...one way or another.
Of course many who have come are grateful, they blend in well. In the final analysis though the collective have driven down wages, sucked up housing stock and are beginning to create a fragmented society with no identity, or collective soul. We have always been divided by class it's true...now you can can add race, language and culture to the splits. Britain is fast losing a collective sense of self.The population of Scotland is falling for instance. Medical professionals are leaving for dreams of riches overseas, nurses, doctors, etc. This is a gap that needs filling.
The ingrate decendants seem to be having a crisis of identity at the moment, are they British citizens first or just muslims in a foreign country which they hold no loyalty to?
I'm not intrinsically opposed to a multi-ethnic mono-culture, but some of these minority groups are far too strident to accept that. Stridence is not a British trait.
ROFLMAO!
Think of non-smokers, breast feeders, homosexuals and other minority lobbyists who have managed to change our laws...........and then tell us that
Stridence is not a British trait :roll:
Entirely negative if I'm honest.
Not one positive aspect to the multi-cult.
Of course the advent of the jet-engune, on top of the steam-ship meant the world would get smaller. Whilst that can be a good thing the cheek by jowel existence of so many different cultures is a failed experiment.
When the importation of umpteen plus differing cultures distorts the sociological balance of a very small island something will eventually upset the mix.
In the laboratory failed experiments sometimes 'blow-up'.
I'm not intrinsically opposed to a multi-ethnic mono-culture, but some of these minority groups are far too strident to accept that. Stridence is not a British trait.
...suggest you read any half respectible history of the British Isles to understand that British history is defined by the influx of many many many different cultures. For example if you describe yourself as "British" you may also identify yourself as been Anglo-Saxon etc etc etc
To answer the original posting there have been many benefits and many dissapointments but on balance I think that the cultural melting pot is a good thing.
I wonder how all the countries Britain invaded over the centuries feel about multi cultural societies, given we created many of them by settling throughout the world.
I have been fortunate that i have visited and stayed in many countries as a student, living in prague for six months and was welcomed with open arms. It wasnt the best job in the world, i peeled tatties to make my keep, but i was happy enough with it, and maybe i took the job of someone decendent from prague.
I have no problems with a multi cultural society, many pay there way and fill position we cant even get UK people to fill, and our medical society was very fortunate to benefit for foreign GP's, Surgeons etc when we couldnt fill the gap. Yes like any society we have those who come and dont earn their keep, but we have far more UK individuals who do that who are born here.
Society is changing, and who knows what it will be like in 20 years from now, but i personally try to respect all cultures and creed, and i dont think Britain loses its sense of self by having other cultures reside within it, in fact i think we benefit from experiencing what others have to offer.
percy toboggan
18-Jul-08, 22:18
...suggest you read any half respectible history of the British Isles to understand that British history is defined by the influx of many many many different cultures. For example if you describe yourself as "British" you may also identify yourself as been Anglo-Saxon etc etc etc
Almsot certainly of Norse descent but when those long boats were arriving 'multi-culturalism' was not the loonyspeak of University graduates, failed politicians and sandal wearing pillocks.
Don't insult me, nor my ancestors stretching back for a thousand years and more by calling us 'immigrants'.
For they stepped into a comparative vacuum. Not a developed society looking for labour on the cheap.
i have known and worked beside people from different cultures and race and i have found most of them nothing but accepting and polite.
it was a dutch engineer that taught me how to handmake transformers,and the other two engineers on the same project were russian,all very intelligent and particular about their work and the way in which they conduct themselves in their lives .this also applies to others i have known whether they be oriental,pakistani,indian or greek
what is the big cruncher these days is the way brits treat each other whether they be english,scottish whatever.with this mind
unforunately in some cases i can't for the life of me say the same.
Almsot certainly of Norse descent but when those long boats were arriving 'multi-culturalism' was not the loonyspeak of University graduates, failed politicians and sandal wearing pillocks.
Don't insult me, nor my ancestors stretching back for a thousand years and more by calling us 'immigrants'.
For they stepped into a comparative vacuum. Not a developed society looking for labour on the cheap.Well said Percy. That's all I can say, not being as intelligent as the rest.:confused
i have known and worked beside people from different cultures and race and i have found most of them nothing but accepting and polite.
it was a dutch engineer that taught me how to handmake transformers,and the other two engineers on the same project were russian,all very intelligent and particular about their work and the way in which they conduct themselves in their lives .this also applies to others i have known whether they be oriental,pakistani,indian or greek
what is the big cruncher these days is the way brits treat each other whether they be english,scottish whatever.with this mind
unforunately in some cases i can't for the life of me say the same.Intelligence is not dependant on nationality.
percy toboggan
18-Jul-08, 22:25
Society is changing, and who knows what it will be like in 20 years from now, but i personally try to respect all cultures and creed, and i dont think Britain loses its sense of self by having other cultures reside within it, in fact i think we benefit from experiencing what others have to offer.
What's that exactly. A few different foods, the odd bit of music one might tap ones foot too?
I have a lot od respect for different cultures and creeds...they are what makes the world a vibrant and fascinating place. I do not want it all in my town though, much less my street.
Thanks for the thought though. My Doctor is English. The last time I had a foreign dentist I couldn't understand what she was saying - which at least put us on level terms - my mouth was full of instruments at the time.:lol:
What's that exactly. A few different foods, the odd bit of music one might tap ones foot too?
I have a lot od respect for different cultures and creeds...they are what makes the world a vibrant and fascinating place. I do not want it all in my town though, much less my street.
Thanks for the thought though. My Doctor is English. The last time I had a foreign dentist I couldn't understand what she was saying - which at least put us on level terms - my mouth was full of instruments at the time.:lol:
Religion, morality, culture,literature and much much more. You already reside in a multi cultural society, given the history of the UK and its development, so what are you exactly saying and what is your definition of multi-cultural?
percy toboggan
18-Jul-08, 22:32
....what is the big cruncher these days is the way brits treat each other whether they be english,scottish whatever.with this mind
unforunately in some cases i can't for the life of me say the same.
Eh? I've read this three times and can't make head nor tail of it.
English, Welsh and Scots have been bantering and battering each other for decades and centuries. When it comes down to it they've recognsed a common enemy and stood shoulder to shoulder on the battlefield.
The only certainty is they will again. Your average Greek, Pakistani or even your Dutch transformer building buddy might not prove so reliant...dependant upon the foe.
Eh? I've read this three times and can't make head nor tail of it.
English, Welsh and Scots have been bantering and battering each other for decades and centuries. When it comes down to it they've recognsed a common enemy and stood shoulder to shoulder on the battlefield.
The only certainty is they will again. Your average Greek, Pakistani or even your Dutch transformer building buddy might not prove so reliant...dependant upon the foe.We will indeed fight as one again, that is a certainty.
My Doctor is English. The last time I had a foreign dentist I couldn't understand what she was saying - which at least put us on level terms - my mouth was full of instruments at the time.:lol:
So, someone 'English' is ok for a neighbour but god forbid a 'foreigner; is a neighbour !!!!
percy toboggan
18-Jul-08, 22:36
Religion, morality, culture,literature and much much more. You already reside in a multi cultural society, ?
Tell me about it.
Religion: Devisive dogma...largely based on myth , hope and desperation.
Culture: ? where is it?
Morality: We need more it's undeniable. Yet ro whom do we look...those who supress women, or merely call them bitches in their music?
Literature: I only read in English.
percy toboggan
18-Jul-08, 22:38
So, someone 'English' is ok for a neighbour but god forbid a 'foreigner; is a neighbour !!!!
So now, as is predictable you begin to put words into my mouth.
I prefer an English Doctor, and I have one.
A Scot, , Welsh or Irish one would equally suffice.
Almsot certainly of Norse descent but when those long boats were arriving 'multi-culturalism' was not the loonyspeak of University graduates, failed politicians and sandal wearing pillocks.
Don't insult me, nor my ancestors stretching back for a thousand years and more by calling us 'immigrants'.
For they stepped into a comparative vacuum. Not a developed society looking for labour on the cheap.
I am impressed that you are so certain that your family tree contains only Norse blood. My historical understanding was that many Norse came to the UK (amongst other places) as immigrants (ie to settle in a freign country), not just for the violence and pillaging bit. Am not sure if the then indigenous population would have seen the Norse as having filled a vacuum either!
The word "imigrant", for me at least, cannot be construed as being insulting, it is simply a description with no connotations. I am sorry for you that you feel that being called an immigart is insulting.
Looking forward to today I don't belive that modern day immigrants are all filling a cheap labour gap, some are, some are not. For example I don't think that some doctors or nurses you see in any hospital are "cheap labour".
So now, as is predictable you begin to put words into my mouth.
I prefer an English Doctor, and I have one.
A Scot, , Welsh or Irish one would equally suffice.
I never put any words in your mouth, i quoted what you had written.
I have a lot od respect for different cultures and creeds...they are what makes the world a vibrant and fascinating place. I do not want it all in my town though, much less my street.
Quick question........how are you able to experince what a different way-of-life/culture has to offer if it is not close to hand (please don't say TV or going on holiday) and thus be able to have respect for it?
percy toboggan
18-Jul-08, 22:47
[quote=benji;408626]I am impressed that you are so certain that your family tree contains only Norse blood.
quote]
I did not say that at all. You are another who is 'putting words into my mouth'
How could this possibly be the case eh? Tell me in all serioussness how you arrived at this rather dumb conclusion.
[quote=benji;408626]I am impressed that you are so certain that your family tree contains only Norse blood.
quote]
I did not say that at all. You are another who is 'putting words into my mouth'
How could this possibly be the case eh? Tell me in all serioussness how you arrived at this rather dumb conclusion.
By another one, you are implying my post, which as above i stated, i did not put words in your mouth, i merely quoted what you had written.
[quote=benji;408626]I am impressed that you are so certain that your family tree contains only Norse blood.
quote]
I did not say that at all. You are another who is 'putting words into my mouth'
How could this possibly be the case eh? Tell me in all serioussness how you arrived at this rather dumb conclusion.
Sorry Percy you did say:
"Almsot certainly of Norse descent .....
Don't insult me, nor my ancestors stretching back for a thousand years and more by calling us 'immigrants'"
Since you mention no other culture/nationality I can only assume that you are only Norse. If you meant something else then can I respectfully suggest you make it a little clearer.
Please don't think that you can bully me by reducing this tread to insults like "dumb".
Melancholy Man
18-Jul-08, 22:54
I worked once with a Sutherlander who'd been a Tube driver in Londonshire (may be enough to give him away!), who bemoaned that you could "look out the driver's window and not see a single 'native'". Aye, mate, and where are you from?
Mass-immigration has been, like so many social policies, both good and bad. Good because it's helped turn this corner of the world into one of the most racially-tolerant and socially-inquisitive societies ever, a modern day Andalus (although it does jar a bit to be told that the pre-existing 'indiginous' cultures were inadequate).
Bad because the likes of the the Employment and Equality (Religion and Belief) Act of 2003 placed the benefit of the doubt of the claimants to maintain they'd been offended and, being more likely to be represented at government level by middle-aged blokes, this reflected the opinions of middle-aged blokes. Thus, plural monoculturalism.
Secularism, liberal democracy, multiculturalism. Pick any two.
Entirely negative if I'm honest. Not one positive aspect to the multi-cult.Okay. Let's bring back all the riff-raff we offloaded onto and voluntary emigrants to the Americas and Antipodes and, lessly, South Africa. Or does it work only one way? If so, shall we then excise ourselves of all the east European Jews from the 19th Century, as well as the Germans and Hugenots, plus the Africans and Chinese and others who'd arrived in our port centres for centuries?
(It's a shame, because what you had to say about a multi-ethnic monoculture was similar to what I said above!)
Anyone in Caithness whose folks came post-Dounreay?
percy toboggan
18-Jul-08, 22:57
[quote=percy toboggan;408633]
Sorry Percy you did say:
"Almsot certainly of Norse descent .....
Don't insult me, nor my ancestors stretching back for a thousand years and more by calling us 'immigrants'"
Since you mention no other culture/nationality I can only assume that you are only Norse. If you meant something else then can I respectfully suggest you make it a little clearer.
Please don't think that you can bully me by reducing this tread to insults like "dumb".
Oh, so now you play the trump card 'bullying'
Rubbish. I said I was almost certainly of Norse 'descent' Sadly I cannot claim exclusivity in this. I'm sure - in fact certain that Celtic blood is in there some where along with a smattering no doubt of Anglo-Saxon.
I'm a mongrel - and proud of it.Although you'll probably tell me I ultimately belong to one of six blokes in Africa who were good at walking and excellent swimmers.
percy toboggan
18-Jul-08, 22:59
[quote=percy toboggan;408633]
By another one, you are implying my post, which as above i stated, i did not put words in your mouth, i merely quoted what you had written.
I said I didn't want the 'vibrancy' of the world in my street.
I wouldn't object to the odd foreigner; so long as he kept fairly quiet.
percy toboggan
18-Jul-08, 23:05
[quote=Melancholy Man;408639]and others who'd arrived in our port centres for centuries?
quote]
Here we have it.
You should have said this a couple of hours ago and saved me some bother.
'Centuries'
The recent acceleration of immigration has upset the applecart. I was sanguine about the scale immigration c.1995. Wasn't keen but didn't worry about it very much.
Then certain groups started to take the p. Politicians first off...then illegals..then the importers of brides and grannies, then the drug smugglers from the Caribbean.
Pressure and Time - to quaote from a favourite film of mine.
The more time, the less pressure. Centuries...epochs...essential for the calm, controlled assimilation of cultures, faiths, ideas and adjustments.
Centuries...the more the better.
[quote=benji;408637]
Oh, so now you play the trump card 'bullying'
Rubbish. I said I was almost certainly of Norse 'descent' Sadly I cannot claim exclusivity in this. I'm sure - in fact certain that Celtic blood is in there some where along with a smattering no doubt of Anglo-Saxon.
I'm a mongrel - and proud of it.Although you'll probably tell me I ultimately belong to one of six blokes in Africa who were good at walking and excellent swimmers.
...yes and I could have suggested you played the "dumb" card but didn't....
Why is it "sad" to you that you cannot claim pure Norse blood? Whats so good to being exclusively Norse? If you were 100% Norse you wouldn't be able to live in the UK by your reasoning. Anyway assuming (a big assumption mind you) that your forebears only breed within the Norse-Celtic-Anglo-Saxon bloodline then you are, yourself, multi-cultural or "mongrel" as you put it. You (like sooo many people) are a product of many cultures mixing. I believe that, amongst many other differences, there are cultural definitions to being "Norse", "Celtic", "Anglo" or "Saxon".
So bringing this forward.... why the resistance to continuing to have a multi-cultral society (as you yourself have suggested that you would rather live in a "British" only society)? Where would you draw the line? What to you defines "Britishness"? What cultures are acceptible to be mixed/allowed to live together? If someone living in the UK today is of mixed-culture (eg mother pure Glaswegian and father pure-Inidan) where is is acceptable to live (Glasgow/India?)?
Personally I have no problem with being descended from beings that (may) originated in the rift valley...
[quote=A_Usher;408636]
I said I didn't want the 'vibrancy' of the world in my street.
I wouldn't object to the odd foreigner; so long as he kept fairly quiet.
percy - you can ignore my last posting - you last sentence has given me the answer to many of my questions. Thanks.
So now, as is predictable you begin to put words into my mouth.
I prefer an English Doctor, and I have one.
A Scot, , Welsh or Irish one would equally suffice.
The two doctors at my surgery are German and Spanish.............and are the most attentive I have had anything to do with in my 60 years on this earth.
I wouldn't swap them for any of the Scottish/English ones I have had in the past..........though I'd maybe put them alongside a lady doctor I used to have in Morayshire.
Out of interest...is there anyone in the UK or of UK descent who could, hand on heart say they were descended from the original inhabitants of these Islands.....or from any of the original invaders?
I know I couldn't.............and wouldn't believe, for a nano-second, anyone who claimed they could.
Melancholy Man
18-Jul-08, 23:22
The recent acceleration of immigration has upset the applecart. I was sanguine about the scale immigration c.1995. Wasn't keen but didn't worry about it very much.
I see your point with this to some extent. One million to the UK over the past ten years, or something. Especially groups which don't have noticeable links to the UK, unlike the former colonies. But...
... 'Paki-bashing' of the 1980s was far worse than anything which has occurred against immigrant populations since this applecart of yours was upset. Plus, 150 years ago similar sentiments were being expressed against mass Irish immigration which, according to your argument, is the same as us: yet then, it was definitely alien.
Before anyone starts on about jihadi violence, the 7 July lot were all born and raised in this country to former Empire sujects. The 21 July lot were, I grant you, Somali/Ethiopian.
Out of interest...is there anyone in the UK or of UK descent who could, hand on heart say they were descended from the original inhabitants of these Islands.....or from any of the original invaders?
I know I couldn't.............and wouldn't believe, for a nano-second, anyone who claimed they could.
completely agree Oddquine and I would love to find someone who can define absolutely who the "original inhabitants" or "original invaders were"
ps I assume that you are perfectly able to understand your current European doctors when they speak to you
completely agree Oddquine and I would love to find someone who can define absolutely who the "original inhabitants" or "original invaders were"
ps I assume that you are perfectly able to understand your current European doctors when they speak to you
Of course............good English..........but no accent more difficult than many of the UK ones I am not used to......like Yorkshire for example.
I must say that, having been in hospital a few times over the years, I have never had a problem with any accents..........English, Southern Scottish or Indian etc.
But I do think that understanding is a state of mind. If you want to you will.......if you don't, you won't.
I knew an Englishman who simply blocked out any accent other than his, and actually got his partner to relay a translation of anything anybody said in his presence.........and she came from the same place as him!
He could never understand just how ignorant that attitude was..........but I guess he was the kind of Englishman who gives Englishmen bad names in Scotland.
Here we go again another Thread that has been hi-jacked. This thread was about multiculturism not Xenophobia
Here we go again another Thread that has been hi-jacked. This thread was about multiculturism not Xenophobia
Multiculturalism is a state of mind as much as anything else, golach.
If you want to be multicultural...........you will make the effort.............if you don't.......anything out of your comfort zone will offend you.....like the Englishman I cited.
After all.......an Englishman in Caithness is as multicultural as an Indian in London....or a Pole in Leeds.........it is an attitude thing..............and not just on the part of the local.....the incomer has to play his/her part as well.
Has the influx of foreign nationals into Britain made any difference, good or bad, to your life?
Multiculturalism is a state of mind as much as anything else, golach.
TBH's origional post was on the influx of foreign nationals into Britain...good or bad? Nothing more!!!
TBH's origional post was on the influx of foreign nationals into Britain...good or bad? Nothing more!!!
Any non-Scots people are an influx into Scotland................and in my limited experience, being from a fairly rural community with limited incomers of any nationality, the most reluctant to assimilate are the non-Scots UK nationals.
I'm afraid I see little difference if the foreign accent and incomer attitude is English, Welsh, Indian, Irish, Pakistani etc...........it is down to what their attitude is and what the attitude of the locals are.
In the end, I have found that non-UK incomers try much harder than those who think they have a right to be here.
Any non-Scots people are an influx into Scotland................and in my limited experience, being from a fairly rural community with limited incomers of any nationality, the most reluctant to assimilate are the non-Scots UK nationals.
I'm afraid I see little difference if the foreign accent and incomer attitude is English, Welsh, Indian, Irish, Pakistani etc...........it is down to what their attitude is and what the attitude of the locals are.
In the end, I have found that non-UK incomers try much harder than those who think they have a right to be here.
You distinguish the Scots from the Welsh and the English. Most people do. Do you feel some sort of "link" with Scots in general?
I'm not having a dig by the way, but it's an honest question.
I can feel some sort of "localness" with people I work offshore with from Brora or Tain for example, but for me I have no more "connection" with an Aberdonian or Glasweigan for example than a Geordie or someone from Middlesborough.
TBH's origional post was on the influx of foreign nationals into Britain...good or bad? Nothing more!!!Exactly Golach, that was all I asked.:confused
You distinguish the Scots from the Welsh and the English. Most people do. Do you feel some sort of "link" with Scots in general?
I'm not having a dig by the way, but it's an honest question.
I can feel some sort of "localness" with people I work offshore with from Brora or Tain for example, but for me I have no more "connection" with an Aberdonian or Glasweigan for example than a Geordie or someone from Middlesborough.
Not really.....I get irritated by the "great I am's" no matter where they come from.....everybody else is just fine.
The influx of "foreign" nationals, whether from other parts of the UK or overseas , hasn't made any difference to my life at all...........apart from being something else to talk about on forums.
But I don't assume "foreign" nationals = muslims as TBH seems to indicate with his The ingrate decendants seem to be having a crisis of identity at the moment, are they British citizens first or just muslims in a foreign country which they hold no loyalty to?
Wouldn't want this thread getting hijacked into becoming a muslim bashing one, would we?
Melancholy Man
19-Jul-08, 09:08
The ingrate decendants seem to be having a crisis of identity at the moment, are they British citizens first or just muslims in a foreign country which they hold no loyalty to?
Replace "the" with "some" and "ingrate" with a word I can't think of just now, and we can have a discussion.
Now, is this the point to bring in a quote from Churchill? I think it is!
In the vast deserts of Arabia, which stretch eastward and north-eastward from the neighbourhood of Mecca to the Persian Gulf and to the boundaries of Mesopotamia, there dwell the people of Nejd, powerful nomadic tribes, at the head of whom the remarkable chief Bin Saud maintains himself. This Arab chief has long been in a state of warfare, raid, and reprisal with King Hussein and with his neighbours generally. A large number of Bin Saud's followers belong to the Wahabi sect, a form of Mohammedanism which bears, roughly speaking, the same relation to orthodox Islam as the most militant form of Calvinism would have borne to Rome in the fiercest times of the religious wars. The Wahabis profess a life of exceeding austerity, and what they practise themselves they rigorously enforce on others. They hold it as an article of duty, as well as of faith, to kill all who do not share their opinions and to make slaves of their wives and children. Women have been put to death in Wahabi villages for simply appearing in the streets. It is a penal offence to wear a silk garment. Men have been killed for smoking a cigarette, and as for the crime of alcohol, the most energetic supporter of the temperance cause in this country falls far behind them. Austere, intolerant, well-armed, and bloodthirsty, in their own regions the Wahabis are a distinct factor which must be taken into account, and they have been, and still are, very dangerous to the holy cities of Mecca and Medina, and to the whole institution of the pilgrimage, in which our Indian fellow-subjects are so deeply concerned.
Any non-Scots people are an influx into Scotland................and in my limited experience, being from a fairly rural community with limited incomers of any nationality, the most reluctant to assimilate are the non-Scots UK nationals.
I to, was brought up in a rural community from the 1940's, my first experience of "Foreigners" were German POW's working on the farm my father worked on in the Tay Valley, from then on I encountered many itinerant workers mainly from Ireland, who worked at all the crop picking seasons. so IMO Scotland has had "Incomers" for many years.
And are the original "Scots" not incomers from Ireland anyway? So we are all descended from incomers.
Any non-Scots people are an influx into Scotland................and in my limited experience, being from a fairly rural community with limited incomers of any nationality, the most reluctant to assimilate are the non-Scots UK nationals. .......In the end, I have found that non-UK incomers try much harder than those who think they have a right to be here.
Being an incomer myself, my experience is quite different. I find that UK incomers seem to make up quite a large proportion/ratio of clubs and societies that promote the well-being of Caithness society than is reflected in the 'Caithnessian' population. Language barriers put aside, I don't seem to recall many non-UK incomers joining such organisations. Just my small 2p, like yours really.
Of course, if non Scottish UK natonals are overly doing it, then it is seen as 'taking over', they canna win the approval of the locals who seem hellbent on non-approval really. So off I scuttle to some far off corner of Scotland to keep myself to myself and then I'm not assimilating into Scottish life then, eh?
percy toboggan
19-Jul-08, 13:39
Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Usher http://forum.caithness.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?p=408636#post408636)
I said I didn't want the 'vibrancy' of the world in my street.
I wouldn't object to the odd foreigner; so long as he kept fairly quiet.
percy - you can ignore my last posting - you last sentence has given me the answer to many of my questions. Thanks.
Perhaps I should have added I like all of my neighbours to be 'fairly quiet'...I like peace and quiet.
percy toboggan
19-Jul-08, 13:49
[quote=benji;408649][quote=percy toboggan;408640]
Benji said>Why is it "sad" to you that you cannot claim pure Norse blood? Whats so good to being exclusively Norse?
I don't claim to be exclusively anything...but if I were and I did celebrate it, rejoice in it even what is so wrong with that? Why should it upset you? And I'm not advocating any blood to be 'pure' you are again placing words into my mouth. 'Purity' suggests some superiority, and I never make that claim, the assumption is at odds with my core beliefs.
He also said>Personally I have no problem with being descended from beings that (may) originated in the rift valley...So, why do you have a problem with my preference of a Nordic background? Can white people not also be proud of our heritage? I'm not proud of it as it happens, it's a fortunate accident of fate. I'd have been rather more fortunate if those ancestors had stayed put I guess...I would rather live in Denmark or Norway , because they are such civilised nations and are regarded as amongst the best places on earth in which to live.The money is better too!
You seem to take some kind of personal offence with my views. I'm afraid I will not, can not apologise for them. They are not that radical. Neither are they xenophobic. I assure you they are shared by a great many people in Britain who prefer post WW2 mass immigration had never happened.
Anyone with a sensible approach to this knows I am not talking about steady controlled immigration which happened for many centuries before the mid-twentieth brought about a huge influx for all the wrong reasons.
It's happened and there is no going back. Benji , you must not expect everyone here to be delighted by it, you must also allow free expression within the law and grant those who wish to see themselves as mongrels to do so. A mongrel I maybe, but I'm no immigrant.
percy toboggan
19-Jul-08, 13:59
After all.......an Englishman in Caithness is as multicultural as an Indian in London....or a Pole in Leeds.........it is an attitude thing..............and not just on the part of the local.....the incomer has to play his/her part as well.
Is that a fact?
So, apart from the common language, the common currency, common history, the fact that out two seperate (regions really) nations are bonded by an 300 year old act of Union I might as well be Sri Lankan in Caithness?
Scots and English are seperated only by a notional line across a very small island. There are more Scots living in England than are in Caithness I'd imagine. Good luck to 'em...they belong here as surely as I belong in Scotland, or any other corner of my islands I choose to call home.
If I was easily offended I'd take the hump at your comment, gladly I'm not.
As for your Spanish and German Doctors good luck to 'em...I'd rather stick with home grown talent but in an emergency they'd do...especially if I could understand what they were saying. I do not trust Doctors from more southerly parts in vastly differing cultures to have the same regard for human life. Some will share our values, some will not. Being a Doctor doesn't automatically elevate your morality.
Melancholy Man
19-Jul-08, 14:29
I said I didn't want the 'vibrancy' of the world in my street.
I wouldn't object to the odd foreigner; so long as he kept fairly quiet.
Mr. Kurtz is dead.
percy toboggan
19-Jul-08, 14:34
Mr. Kurtz is dead.
Was his a short life?
Melancholy Man
19-Jul-08, 14:45
Was his a short life?
Unclear. It was one of a silenced moral voice, though.
Not really.....I get irritated by the "great I am's" no matter where they come from.....everybody else is just fine.
The influx of "foreign" nationals, whether from other parts of the UK or overseas , hasn't made any difference to my life at all...........apart from being something else to talk about on forums.
But I don't assume "foreign" nationals = muslims as TBH seems to indicate with his The ingrate decendants seem to be having a crisis of identity at the moment, are they British citizens first or just muslims in a foreign country which they hold no loyalty to?
Wouldn't want this thread getting hijacked into becoming a muslim bashing one, would we?I see nothing wrong in asking peoples opinion on immigration and I was certainly not meaning muslims in particular when starting this thread.
I did however assume that the 'ingrate descendants' that Percy mentions are the radicalised Muslims that were born and bred in the UK yet head off to training camps to learn how to kill people from their own country.
Melancholy Man
19-Jul-08, 17:30
I did however assume that the 'ingrate descendants' that Percy mentions are the radicalised Muslims that were born and bred in the UK yet head off to training camps to learn how to kill people from their own country.
Not offering it as a mitigation, like, the founding ethos of these camps was to kill Indians, i.e. Kashmir. Iraq or Israel/Palestine came as an after-thought. Listen to some of the shaheed videos (proposed or realized), and what comes across is a complete ignorance of the topics the little sociopath is ranting about: the surleyness of Kevin the Teenager meets the malevolence of the Algerian Jihad.
As for "ingrate descendants", it's true that three of the 7 July lot were second or third generation SE Asians, but one [Germaine Lindsay] was a convert. In fact, if I were going to carry out profiling in tracking suspects, it'd be this cohort I'd focus on. It's been over-represeted in the takfiri jihadis going through the courts: a similar outlet for violent young men was neo-Nazism 10 years ago (there is now an overlap with converts from fringe white fascists).
Plus, the 21 July lot were all recent arrivals from the Horn of Africa. Add to the various Algerians and Kurds arrested and you're left with the feeling that the socially conservative Barlevi Islam which the majority of Britain's SE Asian Muslims (who, in turn, make up the majority of British Muslims) ain't the problem. See what I said about Churchill's misgivings about Saudi influence 90 years ago. The man was right!
Seek out Shehad Tanweer's shaheed video and you'll hear only about a quarter given to the touch-words of Iraq or Palestine, and the rest a broadside on his "so-called Elders who'd sold their souls for a semi-detached and toyota". Remember the "dancing slags" recording? Sayd Qutb, the 'spiritual' father of A-Q did not base his loathing of Western society on Wall Street or Vietnam, but his stay at Nowhereville where he saw teenagers dancing chest-to-chest.
This is why, also, I disagree with attempts to say murder is haram or that Islam prohibits suicide - the jihadis already think mainstream British Islam, looking for its own Itjahad, has returned to jahilyyah, so don't think it a problem to be cast out of this house.
From my view I think if you move to a country you should embrace the beliefs, traditions,way of life etc.
Too many "foreigners" dont blend in and alienate themselves from the mainstream of their adopted "homeland".
When brits go abroad they have to accept cultures or pay the consequences, take the couple in Dubai for example they should be severly punished as they KNEW the rules of that country and should accept it.
What makes me laugh is alot of the preachers of jihad and all that guff, are no better than anyone else and break more of their OWN rules than westerners!!!. Then they try everything they can to make Britain out to be a bad place,if they dont like it- simple solution-LEAVE!!!!! and see if their governments will pay for their mortgage, 56 wives, 123 kids and numerous 4x4's-Dont think so its too cushy for them here.
Melancholy Man
19-Jul-08, 19:36
When brits go abroad they have to accept cultures or pay the consequences, take the couple in Dubai for example they should be severly punished as they KNEW the rules of that country and should accept it.
I wouldn't much like the though of Western rape victims in Saudi being charged with immodesty offences, as has happened to Saudi victims. But, the maximum sentance notwithstanding, this case would have been an offence *here* as well: having sex in a public place is gross indecency. Assaulting a police officer is a breach of the peace.
Michelle Palmer shot herself in the foot by going public, whilst her companion remained suitably embarassed and quiet. They'd already been warned about kissing and fondling each other and, given the accomodation the Dubai state gives Western workers to sit on the beach in bikinis drinking alcohol, they really were the architects of their own fates.
What makes me laugh is alot of the preachers of jihad and all that guff, are no better than anyone else and break more of their OWN rules than westerners!!!
This'll be a reference to the revolting House of Saud. Although it has its sympathizers to OBL and has been responsible more than any other body for exporting the perverted Wahabi form of Islam (Churchill, Churchill, Churchill, oh let me touch the hem of your garment), it is also in low-level conflict with jihadis. The likes of OBL or Abu Hamza al-Muhajir or Mullah Mohammed Omar or Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, whatever else you say about them, were/are not corrupt. That eccentric, Abu Izadeen (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5362052.stm), is not corrupt. Certainly not as corrupt as Lloyd George.
Too many "foreigners" dont blend in and alienate themselves from the mainstream of their adopted "homeland".
What, like the servants of the Empire did in exporting corners of Blighty to the four corners?
and see if their governments will pay for their mortgage, 56 wives, 123 kids and numerous 4x4's
Hardly. Bigamy is an offence in Britain, and support would not be given for additional wives. This is what may well cause Abu Hamza al-Masri to be stripped of his British citizenship. One hundred and fifty years ago, we were hearing similar tales about influxes of Irish Catholics. Fifty years later, it was East European Jews. And, there *were* potentially serious security threats on the British mainland, first from the Fenians, and then Russian anarchists and other agitators (Churchill was present at Sidney Street). But we prevailed.
I've been out of it for so long. How many Muslims are there in Caithness?
DeHaviLand
19-Jul-08, 20:47
Hardly. Bigamy is an offence in Britain, and support would not be given for additional wives. This is what may well cause Abu Hamza al-Masri to be stripped of his British citizenship. One hundred and fifty years ago, we were hearing similar tales about influxes of Irish Catholics. Fifty years later, it was East European Jews. And, there *were* potentially serious security threats on the British mainland, first from the Fenians, and then Russian anarchists and other agitators (Churchill was present at Sidney Street). But we prevailed.
I've been out of it for so long. How many Muslims are there in Caithness?
Yeah, you think?[disgust]
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-512043/Muslim-husbands-wife-extra-benefits-ministers-recognise-polygamy.html
I see nothing wrong in asking peoples opinion on immigration and I was certainly not meaning muslims in particular when starting this thread.
I did however assume that the 'ingrate descendants' that Percy mentions are the radicalised Muslims that were born and bred in the UK yet head off to training camps to learn how to kill people from their own country.
Now that's where we are different.......ingrate descendants, as far as I am concerned, are all those who abuse the UK systems without giving anything back...and there are as many, if not more, white "Christian" Brits who do that than muslim jihadists.
I try not to assume, because nine times out of ten, I have to apologise for an erroneous assumption.
Yeah, you think?[disgust]
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-512043/Muslim-husbands-wife-extra-benefits-ministers-recognise-polygamy.html
But wouldn't they be entitled to benefits in any case? :confused
I was under the impression that this was agreed because it was cheaper for the state than setting each wife and offspring up in a separate establishment.
I don't think anyone should be allowed to take more than one wife into the UK.............but as it seems they are allowed to do that, however they manage it, it seems sensible to reduce the cost to the taxpayer as much as possible.........and paying them £33 odds rather than £60+ and rent/council tax rebates seems to be almost sensible.
teenybash
19-Jul-08, 21:17
I don't think this thread originally started out with to discuss the influx of Muslims and the out of control immigrant numbers.
Growing up in Glasgow, for me was a great experience with friends and aquaintances from different national/cultural back grounds as well as other Brittish folks.
I was privillaged to share and enjoy the music of other countries, food, wine, celebrations, family life and even their religious special moments.
Today is a different story as many of those coming to Britain are unwilling to intigrate and share their way of life with us and vice versa............
I don't think this thread originally started out with to discuss the influx of Muslims and the out of control immigrant numbers.
Growing up in Glasgow, for me was a great experience with friends and aquaintances from different national/cultural back grounds as well as other Brittish folks.
I was privillaged to share and enjoy the music of other countries, food, wine, celebrations, family life and even their religious special moments.
Today is a different story as many of those coming to Britain are unwilling to intigrate and share their way of life with us and vice versa............
But are they really unwilling to integrate.......or are they reacting to the unwillingness of the natives to make them feel welcome?
Lets be honest, here...........how many problems have any of you had with incomers you have taken the time and effort to welcome and get to know?
When brits go abroad they have to accept cultures or pay the consequences, take the couple in Dubai for example they should be severly punished as they KNEW the rules of that country and should accept it.
Please tell me you are having a laugh! Ex-pats, as they like to call themselves, are a well known entity where I come from. They are able to have lived in a country for decades and still can't go to the bakery and ask for a bakers dozen in the local language. If they have children of a school going age they will have their children in a private cooperative english speaking school instead of mainstream ( and often these are not of the same caliber as the local state school!). I should say not all UK immigrants are like this, but there are a significant ammount who are and who manifestly immigrated for the weather and are dead set on creating a "little England" on the Algarve or Madeira (which are the two examples I can speak of through personal experience!).
This is a country of emmigrants. Scots have gone the world over to forge better lives for themselves and their families. That is all most migrants want to do: make better. You have to admire the strength and fortitude it takes to leave everything you know and the security of familiarity, to go to the unknown where you can depend only on yourself. Unlike what many think money is not tossed willy nilly at immigrants. They do not immigrate here to live off the benefit system. Their life is not easy street. And the huge majority, though they like to keep a personal identity, are perfectly integrated into the country they live in. And sometimes if they are not, it is not by their own choice but by the exclusionist atitude of the community they live in. And yes, sometimes people do choose not to integrate for several reasons, but that is a minority. A minority with high visibility, just like the ex-pats who barely know how to say goodmorning after living in a country for a decade.
Tried to rep you for the above post..........but it appears I have already for something............so it ain't letting me.
I agree with every word........well said!
Melancholy Man
19-Jul-08, 22:20
I don't think this thread originally started out with to discuss the influx of Muslims and the out of control immigrant numbers.
Yeah, it's almost as if for some people the slightest mention of Muslims conjures up, as if from a djinn's burp, images of the black flag of Islam flying over St. Peter's in Thurso in five years time and all the Old Poultney being poured into the sea.
Sometimes, you don't even need a Muslim to start this off. As I asked above, how many are there in Caithness? Like the quietists who staff the Edinburgh Central Mosque kitchen where I ate an excellent spinach and paneer curry today? Or the Algerian chefs whom I chat to over coffee? Same for the Sudanese FE lecturer? Or the Punjabi family I work for (including a *very* good looking daughter who doesn't cover her head, shows upper arms and even... gasp!... a decolletage)? The Kenyan supermarket manager? OBL would find these Muslims as much as a shock as Lord Kitchener would find chavs.
Dehaviland, I made a wheen of other points, many of which could hardly be descried as favourable to political/bellicose Islam in Britain or abroad, but you homed in on one comment with the inference that I'd gone all dhimmi. Oddquine has already responded to the substance of the article, but a couple more points:
... harem is not the wifage. It's the enclosure or building where the wifage resides;
... Hotrod spoke of 56 wives, not four. So, either he can't count, or he was being hyperbolic. Just as when he spoke of 4x4s;
... bigamy may be illegal, but adultery is not. A randy non-Muslim man could still claim, ultimately, similar allowances, but I doubt you were referring to this. Just as I doubt you were considering, despite adultery not being illegal, coercion on subsequent 'wives';
... the article was redolent with mights and maybes and coulds, but not verifiable case. And, no, a Daily Mail article is not authority enough.
DeHaviLand
20-Jul-08, 00:00
Dear dear Melancholy Man, you really ought to lighten up. I merely pointed you in the direction of an article which had been posted here previously. I made no comment on the article, or indeed on your post. And if the Daily Mail is not authoritative enough for you http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/1577395/Multiple-wives-will-mean-multiple-benefits.html
Or maybe you would rather consult Hansard?http://www.hansard-westminster.co.uk/
[quote=benji;408649][quote=percy toboggan;408640]
Benji said>Why is it "sad" to you that you cannot claim pure Norse blood? Whats so good to being exclusively Norse?
I don't claim to be exclusively anything...but if I were and I did celebrate it, rejoice in it even what is so wrong with that? Why should it upset you? And I'm not advocating any blood to be 'pure' you are again placing words into my mouth. 'Purity' suggests some superiority, and I never make that claim, the assumption is at odds with my core beliefs..
I have no problem with you celebrating your lineage - don't remember saying anything else along those lines (not that I would suggest that you are putting words into my mouth!) - you go for it! I am not upset in the slighest, please don't think of someone challenging your point of view in a honest way as someone being upset. Everyone is entitled to their point of view and by posting on this forum are inviting people to comment and question and debate - surely a healthy thing?
Some of your posts have inferred a sense that you assume your blood is "pure", my apologies if I have mis-read your postings, perhaps again I suggest care as to how you explain yourself.
However you have not answered my question on the use of the word "sad" - what do/did you mean? I am simply interested.
[quote=benji;408649][quote=percy toboggan;408640]
He also said>Personally I have no problem with being descended from beings that (may) originated in the rift valley...So, why do you have a problem with my preference of a Nordic background? Can white people not also be proud of our heritage? I'm not proud of it as it happens, it's a fortunate accident of fate. I'd have been rather more fortunate if those ancestors had stayed put I guess...I would rather live in Denmark or Norway , because they are such civilised nations and are regarded as amongst the best places on earth in which to live.The money is better too!
You seem to take some kind of personal offence with my views. I'm afraid I will not, can not apologise for them. They are not that radical. Neither are they xenophobic. I assure you they are shared by a great many people in Britain who prefer post WW2 mass immigration had never happened.
Anyone with a sensible approach to this knows I am not talking about steady controlled immigration which happened for many centuries before the mid-twentieth brought about a huge influx for all the wrong reasons.
It's happened and there is no going back. Benji , you must not expect everyone here to be delighted by it, you must also allow free expression within the law and grant those who wish to see themselves as mongrels to do so. A mongrel I maybe, but I'm no immigrant.
I do not have a problem with your preference to associate with a Nordic background (I have never suggested anything like that so no idea where you are comming from....).
To be terribly honest with you I don't take offense at your views, I am simply asking questions based around them - please don't get so angry at having them questioned. If you are upset at me asking then the answer is quite simple - don't post! I certainly don't ask you to apologise for them (or indeed expect you ever will!!).
I do support free expression and have never suggested otherwise (beginning to feel that I am repeating the same point.....)
A final point to get back on the topic - there have been mass migrations in the past - why is the late 20th century migration such a bad thing.....
...on second thoughts Percy lets call it quits and get bck to the point of the mian posting...
teenybash
20-Jul-08, 01:30
Like it or not we do live in a multicultural UK and all of us are quick enough to 'buy' into it...................meaning, probably the best footwear comes from Italy, todays fashion has echoes of India, Oils and spices from Africa and the far east, clothing made in China etc....we all buy these items from time to time..so in that sense we are part of many cultures.
Such is life. Perhaps we should strive to understand more in relation to our fellow human beings, their beliefs, their history.....................:eek:
percy toboggan
20-Jul-08, 08:13
...on second thoughts Percy lets call it quits and get bck to the point of the mian posting...
So, we leave it here after your somewhat patronising comments above...why didn't you just delete the post?
'Sad' is a word often misused in 2008, perhaps I was guilty of that. I do not mull over these posts for longer than a minute or so, I write from the hip.(that's a joke by the way, a not so subtle play on words) I'd rather be confident of a Norse lineage than have umpteen ancestors from wherever they originated. Not for purity's sake but for consistency and certainty.
I'd possibly have a name which meant something, instead of meaning merely 'son of' as is the case. A very minor grumble indeed.
However, given the resilience, resistance to disease and general hardiness which comes from a vastly extended gene pool I am satisfied with who I am. I'm not sure you are and you may have reason not to be so. I neither know, nor care very much.
Incidentally I am incredibly slow to 'anger' as you put it, in the virtual world...the real world less so I'm afraid...perhaps it's down to my breeding.
In conclusion I'll 'quit' when I'm ready thanks very much.
percy toboggan
20-Jul-08, 08:19
[quote=benji;409017
A final point to get back on the topic - there have been mass migrations in the past - why is the late 20th century migration such a bad thing.....[/quote]
In comparison to early 21st. century migration it wasn't quite so bad.
Previous (much earlier) waves of immigration had brought northern Europeans (and a few others in very small numbers)into these islands, quicker to assimilate and integrate over a longer period of time. The Normans (latterday Vikings really) contributed much after their invasion but were soon adopting many of the ways and customs of the country as well as enhancing it (for the most part) with their own. They brought much to the language, and the law. I'd guess that was the biggest 'wave' of immigration we'd seen until c.1950??
If you genuinely believe post - World War 2 immigration was not conducted at too fast a rate for a small island nation to cope with seamlessly then you're not so smart as you like to think you are.
percy toboggan
20-Jul-08, 08:32
Your 'bad rep' describing me as a 'racist pig' with 'rancid views' was not wholly appreciated , but I'm willing to take the rough with the smooth.
Thank you for your interest.
Melancholy Man
20-Jul-08, 08:54
As I said, Dehaviland, I made a wheen of other points about British Muslims and Islamism which were not favourable to the latter, and you homed in the one point which appeals to an unpleasant whiff of bigotry and ignorance. I'd try making posts which provide your own interpretations of news events, rather than simply posting links. I note that you've disregarded everything in my subsequent post. Know many Muslims?
You appear to be having difficulties distinguishing between fact and conjecture, and accommodation of the existential and universal. By that I mean the proposed procedure was intended to bring under one banner a hash of legislation in which individuals would have received monies anyway, and likely more than now proposed. Are you familiar with the Westminster system of governance? How easy d'you think it would to legalize bigamy without a vote?
But bigamy is not being legalized. The Telegraph states that visas cannot be obtained for additional wives, although loopholes can be used to ring them in on student visas and wattknot. Chances are, the women would e coerced but, guess what, I don't see any concern for Muslim women in your post. Just as sneer at all Muslims.
We're talking about benefits, which non-Muslims could claim. The Mail article admitted that only a small proportion of estimated polygamous marriages are claiming. Did you read beyond the headline? Or are you just going for cheap jibes and taking a few hundred cases - against more similar cases amongst non-Muslims - out of a British Muslim population of nearly three million?
Melancholy Man
20-Jul-08, 09:32
Previous (much earlier) waves of immigration had brought northern Europeans (and a few others in very small numbers) into these islands, quicker to assimilate and integrate over a longer period of time.Aaaargh! I will resist pointing out that that application of 21st Century social perceptions to pre-modern societies is a no-win and we cannot retrospective construct grand narratives to portray them as us with funny hats... I must resist, I must, I must, I mu... aaargh I'm slipping!
Has what I've been saying about the Irish Catholics 150 years ago passed people by? They may have been "North Europeans", but they were thought then as alien as recent SE Asian or African or Caribbean immigrants. Well within living memory we were seeing "no dogs, no Irish" signs, and Irish jokes still persist.
Claiming that because previous immigrant groups were from what we now consider the same ethnic stock as ourselves, they were accepted with equanimity is as anachronistic as calling Queen Elizabeth I a racist because she wanted to send recent African arrivals at the ports back to "where they came from".
And port cities. There has been a mixing there for centuries. Mixing in the cosmopolitan centres which gave rise to modernity, with the Chartists being led by a mixed-race man in the mid 19th Century. In the 1890s, there were two Indian MPs in London.
Benji asked what's changed with the 20th Century patterns. Modernity's changed with a shift to the cities. And social and ethnic mixing is what drives this. Sorry, Percy, what I see here is a wish to retain all the material benefits of urban life and a globalized economy, whilst not being aware of what was the impetus for it.
There is also the suggestion that "North European" societies were permitted to go abroad, to the Americas or Australia or wherever, and implant their cultures, while the home countries were sacrosanct. Believe this, fine, but to suggest the pre-existing populations had less right to homogeny *is* racist. A certain book was written which dealt with the cataclysmic effects of European expansion on foreign lands. Well, at least two, but this is the one I've already mentioned.
I'd guess that was the biggest 'wave' of immigration we'd seen until c.1950??
No. The Irish for one.
If you genuinely believe post - World War 2 immigration was not conducted at too fast a rate for a small island nation to cope with seamlessly then you're not so smart as you like to think you are.
Straw man. I don't think anyone has said it was done perfectly or there is not room for improvement.
EDIT - OMG!!! I FORGOT ABOUT CHURCHILL. From London to Ladysmith, where he was captured by the Boers. One asks:
Is it right, that a dirty Kaffir should walk on the pavement - without a pass? That's what they do in your British Colonies. Brother! Equal! Ugh! Free! Not a bit. We know how to treat Kaffirs. Educate a Kaffir! Ah, that's you English all over. No, no, old chappie. We educate 'em with a stick. Treat 'em with humanity and consideration--I like that. They were put here by the God Almighty to work for us. We'll stand no damned nonsense from them. They were put here by the God Almighty to work for us. We'll stand no damned nonsense from them. We'll keep them in their proper places.
The Man replies:
What is the true and original root of Dutch aversion to British rule? It is the abiding fear and hatred of the movement that seeks to place the native on a level with the white man. British government is associated in the Boer farmer's mind with violent social revolution...the Kaffir is to be declared the brother of the European, to be constituted his legal equal, to be armed with political rights...nor is a tigress robbed of her cubs more furious than is the Boer at this prospect.
Edinburgh, where I've lived off and on for the past half a century, would just not be the same place at all were it not for the 'foreign nationals' who have come here over the years. They haven't always been accepted or appreciated at the time -for example there was plenty of anti- Irish sentiment in the early years of the 20th century, based on stereotypical views of Irish folk and prejudices against Catholics.
During WW2 many of the Italians who had been settled here for decades had to endure internment, while the same Edinburgh folk who had happily bought their ice creams were now hurling stones through their shop windows.
I was brought up to think it was normal and acceptable to refer to people of different religious beliefs and/or different skin tones in terms that were patronising, if not downright offensive.
I've noticed plenty of prejudice and resistance to change among us Scots over the years, especially whenever there's a new 'wave' of immigration. Edinburgh's still a long way from being a truly multicultural city, but it's certainly more cosmopolitan than it was. As far as I can see, this has brought far more benefits than problems and make it a much more interesting place to live.
Within the last couple of years, I needed to have a carer coming in on a daily basis for several months. My carers were from Poland, Nigeria and Zimbabwe. Some folk might say they were taking away jobs from 'local' people, but as I know from the agency who employed them, they were doing the jobs local people didn't want to do, and there were still plenty of vacancies.
I do agree with Ju's post in this thread (and tried to rep her, but the system wouldn't allow me to) about emigration from the UK. Yes, we Scots in particular are well known as a 'restless people', and the reason why so many Scots emigrated was to better themselves, and give their children greater opportunities. Why should that be an acceptable human trait for us, and not for other people?:confused
British people in general are not known for their ability to fit in when they emigrate. Even now, when folk emigrate for a sunnier climate and a more laid back lifestyle in, say, France or Spain or Greece, many don't bother to even learn the language. Scots also tend to have maintained a strong sense of their Scottishness, with Caledonian Societies and Highland Games in the most farflung places. ;)
I don't give much thought to where people have come from - I treat them the way I would want to be treated - each as an individual.
in aviemore,where i live theres a awful lot of poles,latvias and lithuanian,s,but give them there due most are very hard workers
Angela thank you for your refreshing and to the point post, and IMO a proper answer to TBH's origional post
Has the influx of foreign nationals into Britain made any difference, good or bad, to your life?
It has only taken 76 posts for someone to come up with a decent posting.
No Rants, No Xenophobic propaganda, just an honest to goodness post
Melancholy Man
20-Jul-08, 14:38
#cough# #cough# Golach, I think my crediting the foundation of a modern day Andalus as the driving force behind globalization counts as addressing TBH’s question!
Yes, we Scots in particular are well known as a 'restless people', and the reason why so many Scots emigrated was to better themselves, and give their children greater opportunities. Why should that be an acceptable human trait for us, and not for other people?
I agree entirely with the second sentence, but a quibble with the first. There is the idea amongst Scots that we’re a naturally non-prejudiced nation – unlike the English, who’re also to blame for any for any of our failures/shortcomings; which is, of course, prejudiced – which never had conflict between our constituent populations, and who’ve acquired a special position on the world scene due to our smeddum and natural willingness to integrate into other societies.
Truth is, we were no more or less likely to emigrate than many other populations in Europe, and when we did so no more or less likely to appropriate resources from pre-existing populations. John Mitchie from Taggart said the Union is “the last vestige of an empire on which the sun has well and truly set (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/7511847.stm)”. No it ain’t, you numpty, Bermuda or Gibraltar are the last vestiges of Empire. The Union was a pre-existing political formation which progressed to form Empire, for good or bad and through equal willingness of participation of its constituent parts: something the unsavoury nationalism developing on the fringes has always been keen to downplay. How else did we achieve that political and cultural visibility across the globe?
I saw a similar struggle to reconcile the dichotomy in such petit chauvinism after the attempted immolation of passengers at Glasgow Airport when Alex Salmond, spluttering on Channel 4 News, declared that Scotland has “no problem” with its Muslim populations and the loonies who’d just been beaten silly by unarmed Glaswegians “must have come from outside”. Oh, really? Where was that? Complete the thought.
This, of course, is the same man who, when the Burmese were smashing the skulls of monks, wrote to the Generals as well as Zimbabwe and Iran in order to have Scotland nominated for observer status on the UN (why we need it, goodness only knows). The same man who thinks it responsible to oppose parts of Westminster policy by hob-nobbing with the Khomenists and £900 of office equipment is more serious than cosying-up to religious reactionaries and proponents of the Caliphate (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4186363.ece).
Most administrations take years to reach such levels of arrogance and disdain and, in response to criticism, petulance and deflection, but he’s managed it in one year.
percy toboggan
20-Jul-08, 15:04
Quote:toboggan...
I'd guess that was the biggest 'wave' of immigration we'd seen until c.1950??
You wrote "No. The Irish for one."
I am not sure but my instincts tell me that when the proportion of migrants to the population already livng here is considered the numbers arriving post 1066 would have had a greater impact than any subsequent influx from Ireland.
If I have time I shall try to do some research upon the matter, as it is mildly interesting.
I am an expat. I live and work in Saudi Arabia; I can meet and greet people in Arabic, and could even order bread in the bakers if required. I find it interesting to see how the thrust of the topic has changed from multi-culturism to intolerance and bigotry. Let me throw my halalas worth in.
I was offered a job in Saudi Arabia about 7 years ago, I was sent a large folder full of rules and regulations, customs and traditions, what I would be permitted to do and what would be expected of me when I arrived – if I didn’t like any of it, I was told not to bother signing. By signing I am responsible for the behavior of not only myself but all of my family, and visitors – if anyone steps out of line then I am to blame. To be honest it is something that I think the UK should adopt. I was also told that once my services were no longer required I could not stay in Saudi Arabia, I would have to leave, fair play.
In the street where I live my neighbours are Saudi, Pakistani, South African, Iraqi, American, Indian, Colombian, French, Brazilian and Palestinian, everyone gets on fine. The kids go to a British Grammar school, but the class is like a meeting of the UN – it is not dominated by British students.
Of the people I have met and observed here, the ones who are the most “clannish” and stick together the most are the Pakistanis, the South Africans and the Irish (in no particular order). Sure the British have get togethers, but nowhere near as incestuous an outlook.
Many British break the rules, some actually could not live without breaking the rules – some people have to eat pork……..why? Because there is a rule that says no pork. Some people make their own alcohol, either out of desperation or just because they can. There is no real need as Bahrain is only a 30 minute drive away and is an oasis of sin and depravity.
I think multiculturism works in my manufactured World, as everyone has a relatively well paid job, decent house and their kids get a good education – so there is little to be jealous of. I don’t think it works in the “real” World as people will always look to someone that is different to pin all their woes on.
I'm not sure you are and you may have reason not to be so. I neither know, nor care very much.
Percy can I humbly suggest that you stop making this tread so personal. You seem unable to get your point of view accross/defend your position without also bringing down the whole tone of the forum. For the record I am quite happy & comfortable with who I am (not that you care).
Please stop comming over in your threads as so angry - there are many people who are affraid of adding to this discussion due to your mauling attitude (you should see my PM's). Please contribute but perhaps a little more moderation in the language (but not necessarily moderating the viewpoint) - I would be the first to defend that you should be able to have your say. But "having your say" does bring with it a responsibility.
Melancholy Man
20-Jul-08, 20:17
Oh well, another day another curate's egg.
Without my going back through the whole thread (I've been absent for a while) would somebody like to define what is meant by the label "Multiculturalism"?
Just so we know that we are all using the same definition.
Tubthumper
20-Jul-08, 22:42
I find the citizens of the USA have had a negative impact on my existence. I can lay the blame for the decline of just about every aspect of life in the UK on them and their 'culture' as imported via films and TV programmes.
Guns, gangs, knife crime, drugs, teen promiscuity are a few clear issues. Then add corporate fraud, government lies, insider trading.
Why have we ended up in an economic downturn? Because of US policies on selling mortgages to those who can't afford them.
That's a bit more of an effect than some poor, ill-educated bloke from Poland who just wants to earn a crust to give his family opportunities like those we in this country can still take for granted.
More europeans please, and less yanks.
Melancholy Man
21-Jul-08, 00:23
Hahahahahahahahahaha... sorry, 'scuse me... hahahahahahahahahaha.
I find the citizens of the USA have had a negative impact on my existence. I can lay the blame for the decline of just about every aspect of life in the UK on them and their 'culture' as imported via films and TV programmes.
Guns, gangs, knife crime, drugs, teen promiscuity are a few clear issues. Then add corporate fraud, government lies, insider trading.
Why have we ended up in an economic downturn? Because of US policies on selling mortgages to those who can't afford them.
That's a bit more of an effect than some poor, ill-educated bloke from Poland who just wants to earn a crust to give his family opportunities like those we in this country can still take for granted.
More europeans please, and less yanks.Polish people are as well educated as any other nation. Many highly educated Polish folk do menial jobs because the money is better than they would get at home, not because they are ill-educated.
Without my going back through the whole thread (I've been absent for a while) would somebody like to define what is meant by the label "Multiculturalism"?
Just so we know that we are all using the same definition.
Well, I may be oversimplifying this but, as it was with the Springfield Monorail, it seems quite clear what the definition is.
In that instance:-
"Mono means One, Rail means Rail"
Bearing that in mind, may I offer up the definition as:-
Multi = More than one.
Culturalism = Relating to a particular culture.
I hope that helps clear the mystery.
Metalattakk
21-Jul-08, 01:59
Your 'bad rep' describing me as a 'racist pig' with 'rancid views' was not wholly appreciated , but I'm willing to take the rough with the smooth.
Thank you for your interest.
If the cap fits, wear it.
Tubthumper
21-Jul-08, 12:13
Polish people are as well educated as any other nation. Many highly educated Polish folk do menial jobs because the money is better than they would get at home, not because they are ill-educated.
Agreed, but surely there are ill-educated Polish blokes, like there are ill-educated Scottish people.
Melancholy Man, you appear to have cracked a rib. Was I wrong to bring the US into the equation??
I apologise unconditionally for using the term 'yanks'; some of my best mates are from the USA.
Well, I may be oversimplifying this but, as it was with the Springfield Monorail, it seems quite clear what the definition is.
In that instance:-
"Mono means One, Rail means Rail"
Bearing that in mind, may I offer up the definition as:-
Multi = More than one.
Culturalism = Relating to a particular culture.
I hope that helps clear the mystery. One means one and three means three but that is hardly a description of what Mathematics means.
I ask again, what do people mean when they use the phrase “Multi-culturalism”?
According to the definition you give there can never be “a particular culture” because as soon as any individual claims to be “different” then they create a “Multi- cultural” society. I have yet to find any group of people where everybody has identical thoughts. They may agree on a particular set of rules which allow them to live amicably together but what is the position when somebody says, “Those rules should not apply to me”? Does that mean that they should be allowed to remain within that group but to behave as they wish without regards to the well being of the rest of the group?
Have a look here..............http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3600791.stm
Maybe one of those definitions will do you.
percy toboggan
22-Jul-08, 18:36
Percy can I humbly suggest that you stop making this tread so personal. You seem unable to get your point of view accross/defend your position without also bringing down the whole tone of the forum. For the record I am quite happy & comfortable with who I am (not that you care).
Please stop comming over in your threads as so angry - there are many people who are affraid of adding to this discussion due to your mauling attitude (you should see my PM's). Please contribute but perhaps a little more moderation in the language (but not necessarily moderating the viewpoint) - I would be the first to defend that you should be able to have your say. But "having your say" does bring with it a responsibility.
As censures go this was a pretty limp wristed response Benji.
My 'mauling' atittude is entirely subjective. I choose my word scarefully and if people are intimidated then I'm as disappointed as I am surprised.
For the record , I am 'angry'....angry that my country has been sold down the river by liberals like yourself and is now faced with the transition of melting pot to powder keg via the crucible of rapid change and alienation.
As for Metalkkak - I have many caps, and they all suit me well. I wear them in public, and do not skulk behind walls of privacy lobbing insults at all and sundry...the day I stoop to 'bad-repping' my adversaries on here, or anywhere else then I'll eat one of my hats...which may well prove as indigestible as your pathetic tactics. If yer going to call me a 'pig'...do it in public...for sure, if I felt as strongly about you , as you clearly do me then the insults would fly off the keys for all to see.
Now then : Multiculturalism....
Did anyone ever vote for it? It seems to have crept upon us in the guise of an alleged labour shortage some time ago. What we need, what we need, is the 'Blue Mink' world where everybody is happy clappy and tolerant. It is never going to happen in a million years of course which is a shame...if I re-incarnate I'd quite like coffee coloured legs please, then I may wear shorts more often.
The multi-cult is a failed experiment...if you doubt humble toboggan then ask Trevor Phillips...race industry 'boss'...he admitted it some time ago.
Melancholy Man
22-Jul-08, 20:29
Did anyone ever vote for it?
I think you're getting this reality mixed up with a Philip Pullman story. I daresay you avail yourself of the benefits of centuries of foreign trading and acquisition of territories by this and other European countries. You don't live in an affluent and wealthy nation because you deserve it.
But, in answer to your question, no, there was no vote on the one mass-immigration you're referring to. Just as there wasn't one of the Catholic Irish of the 19th Century.
For the record , I am 'angry'....angry that my country has been sold down the river by liberals like yourself and is now faced with the transition of melting pot to powder keg via the crucible of rapid change and alienation.
I didn't realize they'd given David Copeland internet access.
percy toboggan
22-Jul-08, 20:42
[quote=Melancholy Man;410093]I think you're getting this reality mixed up with a Philip Pullman story. ....
.quote]
I doubt it..I'm not one for reading children's fantasy novels...although I can enjoy a Harry Potter movie...except the middle hour - when I'm asleep.
percy toboggan
22-Jul-08, 20:51
I didn't realize they'd given David Copeland internet access.
Yer suffering from Melancholic man. Cerebral indigestion.
Keep this up and you'll be libelling me in no time.... I've fairly deep pockets.....how about you?
Melancholy Man
22-Jul-08, 20:56
Infamy, infamy, they've all got it in for me! Percy, trust me, you'll loose. Not least because I doubt very much you have Percy Toboggan on yer simmit and that's all I've linked to. How can one libel an internet moniker?
percy toboggan
22-Jul-08, 21:01
Infamy, infamy, they've all got it in for me! Percy, trust me, you'll loose. Not least because I doubt very much you have Percy Toboggan on yer simmit and that's all I've linked to. How can one libel an internet moniker?
It's my real name from today...I've changed it by deed poll...I wanted to sound foreign...fit in better here. I thought of O'Toboggan...as you're clearly hung up on the Irish, but I stuck with Toboggan...I can't luge...let alone 'loose':Razz:lol:
The thread was about Multi-culturalism in Britain today, how it has or has not affected you.
Now we have the usual claims of racist, closet nazis. Give it a bloody rest eh.
percy toboggan
22-Jul-08, 21:13
I agree:
So might I put forward a theory.
The country is polarised, upon this and many other matters. There seems to be no left and right any more...just right, and right..and I'm not talking politics.
Nobody wants to allow room for counter views it seems...I include myself in this although I only react strongly when my own views are consigned to the bin of extremism when I'm really a rather rational, reasonable fellow.
I have every right to say I do not want multiculturalism in Britain...that it's effects are overwhelmingly negative. It seems to me those who object to such expressions of thought are the true bigots and they are winning, it seems.
A multi-ethnic mono-culture might build bridges, roads , economies and might even win a war or two should they ever become neccesary again. In the closing decade or three of my life I'd settle for that
I agree:
So might I put forward a theory.
The country is polarised, upon this and many other matters. There seems to be no left and right any more...just right, and right..and I'm not talking politics.
Nobody wants to allow room for counter views it seems...I include myself in this although I only react strongly when my own views are consigned to the bin of extremism when I'm really a rather rational, reasonable fellow.
I have every right to say I do not want multiculturalism in Britain...that it's effects are overwhelmingly negative. It seems to me those who object to such expressions of thought are the true bigots and they are winning, it seems.
A multi-ethnic mono-culture might build bridges, roads , economies and might even win a war or two should they ever become neccesary again. In the closing decade or three of my life I'd settle for thatThe bold, highlights a positive from multi-culturalism but you have not provided the negative which you say you have a right to and I happen to agree with that right.
Have a look here..............http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3600791.stm
Maybe one of those definitions will do you.Quite, the term means very different things to very different people. That is why I asked what was meant by the term.
Many such general terms are often hi-jacked and used to promote one particular ideology or one particular viewpoint.
In this case the question is, does Multi-Culturalism mean different cultures adapting to one another to find a way where all can co-exist or does it mean that numerous different cultures insist on going their own separate ways an retaining a completely separate identity from those outside of that particular culture?
Both alternatives can be described as "Multi-Culturalism" yet both are completely different concepts, hence my question of what people mean by the term.
As censures go this was a pretty limp wristed response Benji.
...a bit below even you percy.... (and it was advice not a censure)
I choose my word scarefully and if people are intimidated then I'm as disappointed as I am surprised.
"scarefully" - you have never said a truer word!
If you are disapointed then perhaps you should do something about it....
Melancholy Man
22-Jul-08, 23:02
The thread was about Multi-culturalism in Britain today, how it has or has not affected you. And, bizarrely for the proffered subject on the Interweb thing, I have discussed it from my personal experiences and observations. I have been ultimately optimistic, but nethertheless highly critical of certain aspects. I have spoken of something called plural monoculturalism, which I am not in favour of. I have disputed any assertion that mass immigration did not exist pre-WWII (and what did happen is not lesser because it didn't exceed some 2:73 ratio of the national population) or that there were no racial tensions:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/bd2tj
Now we have the usual claims of [...] closet nazis.
Well, they certainly haven't come from me. I have made more references to a 1902 novella and allegory of Belgian colonialism written by a Polish-born river-boat captain. Throughout this thread I have argued long and hard without making a blithe reference to Nazis. The remark you're referring to was a deliberately absurd image no more serious than asking Percy where he's going to get his herbal remedies now his supplier in Belgrade has gone into a forced sabbatical.
Yet, it was a response his statement, viz. Benji, that he was "angry that my country [it's our country as well; MM] has been sold down the river [it was never this image he has of cricket on the common at St Mary Mead; MM] by liberals [what, followers of John Stuart Mill?; MM] like yourself [didn't realize Benji had had any input in immigration policy or was even advocating unfettered immigration now; MM]". I don't think anyone here would have a problem with the image of unreconstructed Nazis in the BNP, and much of what Percy's said comes straight off a leaflet from before Nick Griffin applied his cuddly Third Position take with the rest coming after said cuddly Third Position take.
His response? Some weirdly passive aggressive comment about libel. The English and Scots systems on libel are a disgrace, but even they would have such claims laughed out of court. When I decline to be cowled into submission, the next response is to imply he was only joshing. There is having a joke and there is being a joke, and Percy's just gone crashing over the distinction.
Metalattakk
23-Jul-08, 03:12
As for Metalkkak - I have many caps, and they all suit me well. I wear them in public, and do not skulk behind walls of privacy lobbing insults at all and sundry...
Privacy, eh? Your argument is just laughable. That's a new depth plumbed for you, I think, "Mr Toboggan". :D
If yer going to call me a 'pig'...do it in public...
OK, here goes...some of you might want to shield your eyes at this point...
Percy, your views (as expressed on this forum in a variety of threads so far) lead me to believe that you are most likely a racist pig, and your aforementioned stated views here show, to me (and others who have contacted me) that you may well be a bigoted rampant xenophobe, filled with hate, a fear of, and a lack of understanding of our colourful immigrant populations.
I find people who express such sentiments to be repugnant and sadly bereft of any understanding of civilised humanity.
But then, taking that all into consideration, I think, in reality, you're no more than a poorly implemented WUM.
Have to disagree with you Metalattak, Percy certainly has strong views and opinions and that is very much his right..........from the tone, content and delivery of your last message I would suggest that intolerance may be a "virtue" that you may possess.
It is very "easy" to wax lyrical about multiculturisms benefits when you are living in an area which is basically totally uneffected by it.
Metalattakk
23-Jul-08, 10:12
Aye, I have an intolerance of racist bigots. I'm not afraid of it, and I'm not going to hide it.
Percy has every right to hold the views he does, just as I have every right to strongly disagree with them.
Melancholy Man
23-Jul-08, 14:58
Whether Percy is a classical Nazi, in the Hitlerian sense, a Strasserite, a plain racist, or an unthinking plank is beside the point. His statements are indistinguishable from those of the BNP and, as this is a party strongly associated with Nazis and reactionary racists, it's an association he brings on himself. Stornoway, not Caithness, would be a better place as this would be close to Kenny Smith, the BNP in Scotland organizer.
But...
Percy certainly has strong views and opinions and that is very much his right..........from the tone, content and delivery of your last message I would suggest that intolerance may be a "virtue" that you may possess.I agree entirely, Scotsboy! The inclusion of any political opinion or viewpoint, no matter how disaggreable, is a vital component to any functioning democracy! Although I would not partake of their peccadilloes myself, I have many good friends in the Adult/Toddler Sex Alliance, and only feel that they should not be unfairly discriminated against because others may think them a bunch of nonces.
Also, my contacts in the Human/Goat Companionship Society (Caithness branch) would love to hear from you and Percy next time you're up.
Then again...
It is very "easy" to wax lyrical about multiculturisms benefits when you are living in an area which is basically totally uneffected by it.Sorry to pursue a point I've made several times before, but who exactly is doing this on this thread? I would suggest it very easily to think you have authority on ethnic harmony when you live in an entirely artifical hydrocarbon society in Saudi, and that not being allowed to drink alcohol or eat pork really is small fry when you can leave, with your dosh, at any point leaving millions of Saudi nationals and dirt-poor migrant workers under a bunch of medievalist religious despots.
It's like those old jokes from the Cold War. The same religious freedom exists in Saudi and the UK. In London, they can build Saudi-funded mosques. Saudi-funded mosques can also be built in Riyadh!
Whether Percy is a classical Nazi, in the Hitlerian sense, a Strasserite, a plain racist, or an unthinking plank is beside the point. His statements are indistinguishable from those of the BNP and, as this is a party strongly associated with Nazis and reactionary racists, it's an association he brings on himself. Stornoway, not Caithness, would be a better place as this would be close to Kenny Smith, the BNP in Scotland organizer.
But...
I agree entirely, Scotsboy! The inclusion of any political opinion or viewpoint, no matter how disaggreable, is a vital component to any functioning democracy! Although I would not partake of their peccadilloes myself, I have many good friends in the Adult/Toddler Sex Alliance, and only feel that they should not be unfairly discriminated against because others may think them a bunch of nonces.
Also, my contacts in the Human/Goat Companionship Society (Caithness branch) would love to hear from you and Percy next time you're up.
Then again...
Sorry to pursue a point I've made several times before, but who exactly is doing this on this thread? I would suggest it very easily to think you have authority on ethnic harmony when you live in an entirely artifical hydrocarbon society in Saudi, and that not being allowed to drink alcohol or eat pork really is small fry when you can leave, with your dosh, at any point leaving millions of Saudi nationals and dirt-poor migrant workers under a bunch of medievalist religious despots.
It's like those old jokes from the Cold War. The same religious freedom exists in Saudi and the UK. Saudi-funded mosques can be built in Riyadh. In London, they can also build Saudi-funded mosques!
I call Godwins law on this!!!!!
How right...this is Caithness, isolated from the world, pure...untouched.....
Ok.... I am off for my fish supper. Oh dear.... what is identified as British by most and scottish per excellence: a new world tuber prepared a la mode Belgique!!! Stop all chippies in Caithness now!!!!!!;)
How right...this is Caithness, isolated from the world, pure...untouched
My how you make us sound somehow.....virginal ;)
percy toboggan
23-Jul-08, 18:42
Aye, I have an intolerance of racist bigots. I'm not afraid of it, and I'm not going to hide it.
Percy has every right to hold the views he does, just as I have every right to strongly disagree with them.
Indeed you do, which is why I've just awarded you some reputation points of the positive kind. I doubt you have many, so enjoy them with my blessing.
percy toboggan
23-Jul-08, 18:57
Whether Percy is a classical Nazi, in the Hitlerian sense, a Strasserite, a plain racist, or an unthinking plank is beside the point. His statements are indistinguishable from those of the BNP !
I have to say I'm closer to an 'unthinking plank' than a Nazi.
A Strasserite? No...you've lost me...unless they're found hanging upside down in caves(I've done that)
Plain racist? No one could ever describe me as 'plain' surely...more a self-raising variety and the term 'racist' is sorely overused these days.
The BNP? You mean the party which attracted five per cent of the vote at the last election? Including mine as I've said before...they represent the only conduit for exasperated protest and I do believe it's beginning to work. I have no wish to see the idiots in power but they are serving a purpose.
MM - you've obviously been studying hard somewhere, maybe you've got a great local library. You're wasting your massive mind on me...I've lived too long in the real world and seen too much change to offer creedence to more of your elevated tosh-logic. Your jokes ain't that good either.
Whether Percy is a classical Nazi, in the Hitlerian sense, a Strasserite, a plain racist, or an unthinking plank is beside the point. His statements are indistinguishable from those of the BNP and, as this is a party strongly associated with Nazis and reactionary racists, it's an association he brings on himself. Stornoway, not Caithness, would be a better place as this would be close to Kenny Smith, the BNP in Scotland organizer.
But...
I agree entirely, Scotsboy! The inclusion of any political opinion or viewpoint, no matter how disaggreable, is a vital component to any functioning democracy! Although I would not partake of their peccadilloes myself, I have many good friends in the Adult/Toddler Sex Alliance, and only feel that they should not be unfairly discriminated against because others may think them a bunch of nonces.
Also, my contacts in the Human/Goat Companionship Society (Caithness branch) would love to hear from you and Percy next time you're up.
Then again...
Sorry to pursue a point I've made several times before, but who exactly is doing this on this thread? I would suggest it very easily to think you have authority on ethnic harmony when you live in an entirely artifical hydrocarbon society in Saudi, and that not being allowed to drink alcohol or eat pork really is small fry when you can leave, with your dosh, at any point leaving millions of Saudi nationals and dirt-poor migrant workers under a bunch of medievalist religious despots.
It's like those old jokes from the Cold War. The same religious freedom exists in Saudi and the UK. Saudi-funded mosques can be built in Riyadh. In London, they can also build Saudi-funded mosques!
Lets not deal in my manufactured World then, lets have a look at the Utopia that is Caithness, having lived there for more years than I care to admit I think I have suitable authority to discuss “ethic” harmony there. In most of the towns, villages and rural communities in Caithness there is a group of people that have long been insular, with their own customs, traditions, behavior which set them aside from the rest. They are not represented in any way in the social or political landscape, and if they happen to go out of an evening people tend to steer clear of them. They are ridiculed, mocked and abused constantly. I am of course referring to Tinks. Now tell me how many of you can say – some of your best friends are tinks? How many of you regulary interact with Tinks? How many of you stop to find out about the Tinks way of life and customs?........Is that their fault or yours?..........just a thought.
Very easy to criticize someone who comes on a messageboard and tells it like they see it from their persective, without actually considering what they are saying.
Melancholy Man
23-Jul-08, 21:17
This is incredible. I have just received a message from an acquaintance, a very confused boy investigating his individuality, who is a member of the Tie a Kitten to a Stick and Roast It With an Oxy-Acetylene Torch Club. He sends you his sincerest gratitude, Scotsboy, for your toleration of those some think of as raving nutters.
Lets not deal in my manufactured World then,
Of course not. You may have previously in this thread touted your credentials as someone living specifically in Saudi, and thus claimed authority over culturally-impoverished Caithness dwellers. This doesn't mean, though, you have to accept cross-examination when someone else comes along making clear that he knows a lot more about the sclerotic House of Saud - scion of a debauched desert warlord who'd laugh manically as he beat servants - than you'd hoped! That wouldn't be cricket.
Applied to permission to build a church in Saudi recently? Practice non-approved forms of Islam (especially Shia)? Exist as a female national? Exist as a Jew, even if you were defending it against Ba'athist designs? I wouldn't recommend it.
lets have a look at the Utopia that is Caithness,
Oooo, you're cheeky! See what he's done, loons and queans? I have NEVER ONCE said this about Caithness. The only contributor to this thread who has conceivable done so has been Percy; someone with whom I most certainly do not agree. But, in his drive for control, Scotsboy has turned it on me!
Now tell me how many of you can say – some of your best friends are tinks? How many of you regulary interact with Tinks? How many of you stop to find out about the Tinks way of life and customs?
What the Dickens??? You're inferring that wildly different and distrusted adjunct cultures have existed around the British Isles without reference to post-WWII immigration. In fact, this is precisely what I've been saying from the start. Unfortunately, it's in contradiction to your previous comment which, I quote, was "it is very easy to wax lyrical about multiculturisms benefits when you are living in an area which is basically totally uneffected by it".
Sorry, this is arrant nonsense.
Very easy to criticize someone who comes on a messageboard and tells it like they see it from their persective, without actually considering what they are saying.
Did George and Wheedon Grossmith not write a story about you? I do have to hand it to you, though. You have displayed an absolute sense of disconnect in which you don't just ignore Percy's rhetorical and, now, self-confessed support for the BNP, but defend his right to vote for a reactionary racist political party, and slap down criticism from others, whilst claiming to be opposed to the sentiments he expresses; and then attempt to silence those combating it!
Or is it disconnect? Percy now admits to being a unthinking plank, but are you one of the organ-grinders? Are you, in fact, deploying the Isidor approach?
Carry on Lenin.
I have to say I'm closer to an 'unthinking plank' than a Nazi.
And you want congratulations for this? How odd.
A Strasserite?
Google is your friend.
MM - you've obviously been studying hard somewhere, maybe you've got a great local library. You're wasting your massive mind on me...I've lived too long in the real world and seen too much change to offer creedence more of your elevated tosh-logic.
Now we're onto the anti-intellectual sneers. Yes, I have read a lot about Hitlerianism and Stalinism and other death-cults of the age of social catastrophe. There is no gold-standard for attitudes they harnessed - you don't need a buzz-cut and jackboots, or commissar's jacket. Just a steely conviction that you can change reality.
I don't know which 14 words you operate by, but I prefer: there ain't racial purity, pal. There Ain't No Going Back to St. Mary's Mead.
I call Godwins law on this!!!!!
This refers to spurious invocations of Nazidom. When someone repeats policy/attitudes of a political party riddled with Nazis, and then admits to voting for them, it's perfectly reasonable to do so. Unless you think it unjust to accuse members of the Bullington Club of never coming into contact with working classes unless they're cowering behind pub tables as be-suited yobs smash it up.
So Melancoly Man - been out for lunch with a Tink lately?
Melancholy Man
23-Jul-08, 21:27
So Melancoly Man - been out for lunch with a Tink lately?
Preformed one-handed press-ups with Jack Palance lately? About as relevant.
cant say that i havent ever thought about it to be honest, so that must mean that obviously they dont.
Not if you are talking about "groups" in society who are not integrated into the "mainstream".
Going to Church on Friday by the way:) and tomorrow I will be having lunch with my Shia work mate...............and anyway how long does it take you to read just over 200 pages?
Melancholy Man
23-Jul-08, 22:20
Is this going to be another failure to respond to questions whilst making them of others? In my experience, this is a sign you cannot answer the original question. In light of everything I have said in this thread and others, you are going to have an uphill struggle presenting me distrusting of Muslims or Saudi nationals or, even, Caithness tinkers. Indeed, in the chav thread, I specifically cited the attitudes towards this last group.
Hasn't stopped you trying, though. Co-opting them in, and demanding that I say whether or not I'd had lunch with one, was irrelevant and, as with the Isidor approach, an effort to make a lie truth by repetition. Sorry, I'm well used to this.
That members of other faiths are not actively tortured, as long as they keep quiet, does not make a tolerant society. In fact, your response to criticism of Saudi policy by referencing Caithness tinkers is another tactic I'm familiar with: unable to respond to specific criticisms of one party, the individual attempts to drag down another so the first looks less bad by comparison.
Once again, do the spires and crosses of churches, or domes of temples, or synagogues dot to the sky-line of Saudi cities as they do in the UK? How easy will it be to hold a Discover Christianity Festival, as frequently occur in the UK for Islam? As, a non-Muslim, how easy would it be for me to drive towards Mecca as urbane Western Christians would welcome other faiths to all their religious sites?
See the problem with making equivalences or comparing chalk and cheese? Two can play at that game.
Which 200 pages?
I don’t think I have said anyone should be mistrusting of any group, and I certainly did not say or portray you as mistrusting of anyone MM. The point I was trying to make (obviously very badly) was that some people talk about tolerance and acceptance in society without realizing that they themselves have certain intolerances to certain groups of people. Now to a large extent there are no significant racial or multicultural effects felt in Caithness, the original poster posed the question “has the influx of foreign nationals into Britain made any difference, good or bad, to your life?” IMHO there is no significant impact in Caithness, but others from areas with a larger influx will have different views. I actually agree with you on the matter of prejudice not being linked to contemporary immigration – it has always been present, and always will be. Even the most lilly livered liberal (nb I am not suggesting or implying that you are such) will be bigoted……..even if they are bigoted against bigots).
I used the analogy of Tinks as they are in the main an isolated group, and even those who do merge in with the rests (wonder if they are considered Uncle Toms by their kin) are given the accolade of being “clean tinks”. Whether you lunch with Tinks or not (and I didn’t really need an answer), I am pretty certain that you do not regaulry interact with them socially. And if truth be told Tinks have neither a great net positive or negative impact on society………..much like the rest of us “nobodies”.
I am sorry but I have not told or perpetuated any lies in my posts, if you care to highlight anything you think “untrue” I would be only too willing to clarify.
As for Saudi Arabia, again if you go back to m y earlier post you will see that I was discussing my personal experience in a “manufactured” community. Nowhere have I held Saudi Arabia up as an example of a tolerant society…….to do so would be patently absurd. However you should be aware (or maybe you are) that there are active “Churches” in Saudi Arabia, they may not meet in buildings designed by Sir Christopher Wren, but they are Churches. You are of course correct regarding Mecca, it is a no go area for all but Muslims – which I do consider a shame as I would love to visit it.
I don’t think comparing the treatment of Tinks to say Bangladeshis is comparing chalk and cheese.
The 200 pages relates to your footer/signature – Currently Reading……..hurry up and finish it, I want to see what’s next on your list.
Can't say I've met any tinkers in Caithness....in fact I haven't seen a real tinker since I was young, when there was a couple of their kids in my class in Primary school.............unless you count as tinks the scruffy s,like me, who slop about in minging clothes and wellies because it is less hassle than changing to go round to the shop.
Having a surname which originated as a that of a traveller/tinker doesn't make you one........I know because my married surname is one of those.......but my OH never travelled around the country mending metal household utensils.
percy toboggan
24-Jul-08, 17:46
So Melancoly Man - been out for lunch with a Tink lately?
He' spermanently 'out to lunch' .....with 'imself methinks.
Give a moderately intelligent bloke enough time for a good education and he might waste it filling his own head with nonsense.
Interesting in his way though... though...'til one tires of it....and it's a big improvement on gas bills and bank statements. For the .org is my mailbox.
Has the influx of foreign nationals into Britain made any difference, good or bad, to your life?
As one of those recent influxed foreign nationals I would have to say that it has made a good difference to my life.
Alice in Blunderland
24-Jul-08, 21:58
Has the influx of foreign nationals into Britain made any difference, good or bad, to your life?
For me I can only say it has made a huge difference to my life and all for the better. ;)
As for another question which has been asked in this thread there are a few muslims within Caithness. :)
As for another question which has been asked in this thread there are a few muslims within Caithness. :)
There are indeed. We have had a few of them in our home and, you know what, they were no different to anyone else we had ever had as guests.
Melancholy Man
24-Jul-08, 22:12
Now I've received a message from another contact. I reproduce it without comment.
STATEMENT FROM THE TIE A KITTEN TO A STICK AND DOUSE IT WITH KEROSENE BOARD OF ASSOCIATED SCHOLARS:
As a representative board of at least 5% of the British Tiers of Kittens to Sticks community we have organized many varied cultural events which government ministers almost attended. It is our opinion that true Tiers of Kittens to Sticks should utterly reject the previous statement by the Baal worshipping Oxy-Acetylene Torch users who are being utilized by well-funded bodies as toxic attack-dogs. Their practices are those of the Jahiliyyah, and will serve only to increase the feelings of helplessness in members of our community who may start dousing kittens in your streets, and not somewhere far away which, let's face it, we know are not high-up on the priorities of your anti-war protesters who're protesting against wars which ended in 1834.
But, if elements in our community do start dousing kittens in your streets, it won't be all that surprising. Western imperialism will be to blame.
He' spermanently 'out to lunch' .....with 'imself methinks.
Give a moderately intelligent bloke enough time for a good education and he might waste it filling his own head with nonsense.
Interesting in his way though... though...'til one tires of it....and it's a big improvement on gas bills and bank statements. For the .org is my mailbox.
Nobody is listening to you anymore Percy - time to give it all a rest and find another forum to air your views......
This refers to spurious invocations of Nazidom. When someone repeats policy/attitudes of a political party riddled with Nazis, and then admits to voting for them, it's perfectly reasonable to do so. Unless you think it unjust to accuse members of the Bullington Club of never coming into contact with working classes unless they're cowering behind pub tables as be-suited yobs smash it up.
Disagree with your interpretation of "the Godwin".
Here is my interpretation:
If someone brings up Nazis in general conversation when it
wasn't necessary or germane without it necessarily being an
insult, it's probably about time for the thread to end.
o If someone brings up Nazis in general conversation when it
was vaguely related but is basically being used as an insult,
the speaker can be considered to be flaming and not debating.
o If someone brings up Nazis in any conversation that has been
going on too long for one of the parties, it can be used as
a fair excuse to end the thread and declare victory for the
other side.
Nobody is listening to you anymore Percy - time to give it all a rest and find another forum to air your views......
I am listening as much to percy as I am to you, thats the point!!!
Democracy is great isnt it ;)
I like to look at all sides of the debate, dont necessarily have to agree with either side, some make me laugh at the nonsense and others actually make you think, which is the whole point.
Or am I missing something?
There are points where i agree with the multicultarism and times I dont, it depends on the circumstance and issue. For example being a british citizen in Oldham for example can be extremely dangerous and that is why the BNP moved into that area,on the same hand being a non british person in Oldham can be just as dangerous in certain areas.
My point?
If cultures come together then harmony will prevail, if there is no integration on BOTH sides then forget it. My view is no matter if its brits abroad or foreigners here, if you move to another country and wish to settle there, then take note of the culture you are moving to and get to know and follow THEIR values and customs,even if it goes against yours, or quite simply dont migrate stay in your own country.
Being tolerant of others views works both ways,why move to a country slag off its values and hide yourself away from the population? If you are not willing to be tolerant of your host country then you shouldnt be there. This works for both "Incomers" and "outgoers"
Nobody is listening to you anymore Percy - time to give it all a rest and find another forum to air your views......
Not your place to tell anyone they are not welcome Benji. You do not speak for or represent the "forum".
Disagree with your interpretation of "the Godwin".
Here is my interpretation:
If someone brings up Nazis in general conversation when it
wasn't necessary or germane without it necessarily being an
insult, it's probably about time for the thread to end.
o If someone brings up Nazis in general conversation when it
was vaguely related but is basically being used as an insult,
the speaker can be considered to be flaming and not debating.
o If someone brings up Nazis in any conversation that has been
going on too long for one of the parties, it can be used as
a fair excuse to end the thread and declare victory for the
other side.
Don't you think that if someone invokes the 'Godwin' law then that could be tantamount to trying to disassociate what the Nazis did from reality or ironically doing exactly the same things as what the Godwin's law was trying to prevent in terms of stifling debate etc. I think we should always be very mindful of any parallels with what made them to be who they were and what is happening in the world today.
Melancholy Man
25-Jul-08, 09:56
In fact, I did not accuse Percy of being the inheritor of Mr A Hitler. He, however, has admitted to voting for a party riddled with admirers of the man. Therefore, invocations of Godwin are moot.
Not your place to tell anyone they are not welcome Benji. You do not speak for or represent the "forum".
I cannot believe (well, yes, I can) that you have the sheer brass-neck to come out with this guff. At various points in this thread you have:
[a] Claimed authority as someone who lives, quite affluently, amongst all the pleasures of multiculturalism in Saudi and then back-tracking when challenged with demonstrative facts. This is the tactic of a gutless wonder who not only crumples but claims never to have been fighting when meeting with opposition;
[b] On multiple occassions, defended a self-confessed voter for a reactionary racist party (which you claim you oppose), whilst (as above) only objecting when he's challenged. Percy has the right to his opinion, but to expect others to acquiesce is an infringement of our free-speech;
[c] When one avenue of argument was blocked, tried the Isidor approach of branding me a racist on a completely irrelevant topic and one which, if you'd actually read my comments and not sallied forth in your quest for control, you'd have seen I was studiously arguing against. And, when called up on it, claimed to have been misinterpreted. Back to being a gutless wonder;
[d] After saying how peachy multiculturalism was for you, and that the thread had descended into bigotry and ignorance (well, it hadn't, Mr. Pooter. At said point there was a majority of opinion against this, but don't let that get in your way of calling us lesser mortals racist), then said it was easy to support it when you weren't affected. What is it? Are Saudi or British inner cities a miscegenation hellholes, or do you support it only when you're receiving lots of money (oil or weapons, my guess) but reserve the right to return from your colonial japes to a monochrome society in north Scotland? Or, do you just not care about the truth, just control?
When, one of your lies is unmasked, you lie and lie and lie again! And, like all sub-Leninist nobodies, you don't think the rules apply to you.
Not your place to tell anyone they are not welcome Benji. You do not speak for or represent the "forum".
Thanks - brought a real rye smile accross my face
sorry can't seem to edit....mmm
I meant wry of course!
MM I gave my opinion, I would be grateful if you could indicate anywhere I have claimed authority to discuss multicultrism in Saud Arabia........I did claim authoirty to be able to talk about Caithness, but lets not get the facts in the way.
MM I would like you to highlight and repeat the demonstrative “facts” (or were they question??) that I back tracked on, in relation to my opinion.
MM I suggest that fighting will never solve nor benefit a discussion.
MM I have no problem with Benji”s right to free speech –of course he is entitled to his say - but he is not entitled to speak on others behalf, which is what he said when he told Percy to find another forum.
MM you are taking this far too personal, with the EXCEPTION of this my post my posts are for the forum in general, not you specifically, if I wanted to talk to you I would use PM.
MM please indicate where I said the post had descended into bigotry and ignorance.
MM I did not call you mere mortals racist, simply implied that you all have intolerances of certain groups of people.
MM if you actually read my initial post you will see (sorry to repeat this again) that I said that in my “manufactured situation” multiculturism works as everyone basically is well paid, their kids receive a good education. I did not make comment on Saudi inner cities, nor inner cities in the United Kingdom
Where I go, I don’t think I said I would be “returning” anywhere, is very much up to me.
I do care about the truth, and again I ask you to elucidate where you “think” I have lied?
Personal insults are the mark of a master debater.
sorry can't seem to edit....mmm
I meant wry of course!
Glad it made you happy Benji, see even those you don't agree with can bring a little sunshine into your life- that is why it is better to be inclusive, rahter than try and censure public debate.
Glad it made you happy Benji, see even those you don't agree with can bring a little sunshine into your life- that is why it is better to be inclusive, rahter than try and censure public debate.
..now I am laughing.....
..not sure you are correct on your second point - sure I agree with being inclusive with debate but not when it descends to the level that percy et al get to........
I hope that last statement isn't you "masking a swearword" Benji.........aould hate to se you fall foul of the authorities;)
In fact, I did not accuse Percy of being the inheritor of Mr A Hitler. He, however, has admitted to voting for a party riddled with admirers of the man. Therefore, invocations of Godwin are moot.
I cannot believe (well, yes, I can) that you have the sheer brass-neck to come out with this guff. At various points in this thread you have:
[a] Claimed authority as someone who lives, quite affluently, amongst all the pleasures of multiculturalism in Saudi and then back-tracking when challenged with demonstrative facts. This is the tactic of a gutless wonder who not only crumples but claims never to have been fighting when meeting with opposition;
[b] On multiple occassions, defended a self-confessed voter for a reactionary racist party (which you claim you oppose), whilst (as above) only objecting when he's challenged. Percy has the right to his opinion, but to expect others to acquiesce is an infringement of our free-speech;
[c] When one avenue of argument was blocked, tried the Isidor approach of branding me a racist on a completely irrelevant topic and one which, if you'd actually read my comments and not sallied forth in your quest for control, you'd have seen I was studiously arguing against. And, when called up on it, claimed to have been misinterpreted. Back to being a gutless wonder;
[d] After saying how peachy multiculturalism was for you, and that the thread had descended into bigotry and ignorance (well, it hadn't, Mr. Pooter. At said point there was a majority of opinion against this, but don't let that get in your way of calling us lesser mortals racist), then said it was easy to support it when you weren't affected. What is it? Are Saudi or British inner cities a miscegenation hellholes, or do you support it only when you're receiving lots of money (oil or weapons, my guess) but reserve the right to return from your colonial japes to a monochrome society in north Scotland? Or, do you just not care about the truth, just control?
When, one of your lies is unmasked, you lie and lie and lie again! And, like all sub-Leninist nobodies, you don't think the rules apply to you.
You really should get out more ;)
Why be so down on where someone lives, i.e Scotsboy in Saudi,are you not falling into the "percy" trap where you accuse him of being racist about cultures then go and do the same to scotsboy?
Glass, houses, poeple, stones, rearrange in a sub-leninist/trotsky/fascist/monochrome manner ;)
need I say more?
Melancholy Man
25-Jul-08, 14:31
Personal insults are the mark of a master debater.
Is there an omitted word here or is it an attempt at irony? If the former, you are [common to Internet users who have failed to see 1968 sail towards the horizon, but continue attempting the silence dissent by accusing their interlocuteurs of racism and/or unpinned any comment with appeals to their own authority] operating under the misapprehension that ad hominem is a personal insult, per se, and, even if it were, it is bad argument, per se.
If the latter, only a weary resignation at your inability to understand prevents my plumbing the depths of my pedantry by explaining the difference betwixt it sarcasm. Again, after considering it permissable to infer others are bullies or racists, you cry foul when you meet resistence.
that is why it is better to be inclusive, rahter than try and censure public debate.
Truth be told, irony is rarely a paradoxical or unfortunate coincidence. This comment, however, is hugely ironic.
I hope that last statement isn't you "masking a swearword" Benji.........aould hate to se you fall foul of the authorities
Stop picking on someone your own size: I'm here. Now, spare us the passive aggression. If you believe Benji tried to circumvent the filters, and you are a moderator; issue him with an infraction. If you are not a moderator, and believe it has slipped their attention, flag it to one by PM. Do not "try and censure public debate".
You cannot tell me or Benji or anyone else what to do. The reason your appeals to 'free speech' are of as much value as the Brown's political acumen it is only a BNP voter's free speech you're defending (even one who is gradually growing on me, I think he's a gent), while trying to censure debate from others. When it suits you, you argue the line of a smart cosmopolitan benefitting from exposure to other cultures and ethnic groups. When it suits you, you argue the line of an insular social reactionary, jaded from untrammled immigration. What the common factor is *you*, and your being placed as the arbiter of any discussion.
(No, Hotrod, it's nothing to do with Saudis, whom I have no problem with. It's entirely to do with Scotsboy's position.)
You cannot tell me or Benji or anyone else what to do. The reason your appeals to 'free speech' are of as much value as the Brown's political acumen it is only a BNP voter's free speech you're defending, while trying to censure debate from others. When it suits you, you argue the line of a smart cosmopolitan benefitting from exposure to other cultures and ethnic groups. When it suits you, you argue the line of an insular social reactionary, jaded from untrammled immigration. What the common factor is *you*, and your being placed as the arbiter of any discussion.
Isnt the point that scotsboy was telling benji the exact same thing that you are trying to tell him?Or is it just Ok for people you support to tell people what to do?
Are we not going round and round?
And the point "it is only a BNP voters free speech youre defending" then you are as bad as the "BNP voter" as you deem him to be beneath you and inferior, is that not one of the BNP's ideas? SO who now is the BNP voter????
free speech is Ok as long as it agrees with you.
I enjoy reading everyones opinions and dont see why it is OK for one person to tell another to "shut up" .I may not agree with your opinions but hey it makes good reading, and proves that democracy is alive and kicking!
You are defending Benji's position and Scotsboy was defending Percy's right to his point, its getting like a "my dad is bigger than your dad" scenario which is deviating from the matter in hand.
Melancholy Man
25-Jul-08, 15:02
Isnt the point that scotsboy was telling benji the exact same thing that you are trying to tell him?Or is it just Ok for people you support to tell people what to do?
No. Benji's comment was in response to Percy's continued pursuit of his half-baked opinions on 'multiculturalism' and immigration which, after the mauling he's received if I do say so myself, is like listening to a final cry from the Black Knight. There was no implicit demand that Percy leave entirely, just find somewhere else to air these particular views.
Scotsboy, however, is telling people simply to be quiet and not even utter views which have not been approved by the central committee. He's accused me and others of foisting mass-immigration on populations we don't have exprience of. He's accused me of racism due to something complete irrelevant about Caithness tinkers. He's all over the place.
And the point "it is only a BNP voters free speech youre defending" then you are as bad as the "BNP voter"
No. He can defend as many BNP voters - who, I have said, have the right to free speech - as he likes to the exclusion of their opponents/critics. However, he cannot then claim the moral highground as a dispassionate observer. The right to be heard does not necessarily include the right to be taken seriously.
as you deem him to be beneath you and inferior, is that not one of the BNP's ideas?
Er... no. The BNP judge people by racial group (they ain't sophisticated enough to consider ethnicity), especially one very particular religion. I am meritocratic. I judge people by what they say and do. Now, the Leninists, they do think political classes are beneath them.
A curate's egg indeed and a very rotten one at that.
A curate's egg indeed and a very rotten one at that.
Is it the thread thats a curates or just some opinions?
Point me in the direction of the lies I have told MM.
No need to throw the toys out of the pram, and for anyone who sits down and reads though your posts it is easy to see where the fabrication and innuendo lie.
You are obviously wasted on here,someone as worldly wise and clever.........but why are you getting so angry?
percy toboggan
25-Jul-08, 19:19
Nobody is listening to you anymore Percy - time to give it all a rest and find another forum to air your views......
I'll bear that in mind Benji.
Who knows what the future might bring eh?
percy toboggan
25-Jul-08, 19:42
Melan Man: being 'mauled' by yourself and Benji (the only two 'maulers' I can recall on this thread) brings memories of Geoffrey Howe..and the dead sheep jibes levelled at him by Thatcher loyalists in her dog days (I'll not stoop to calling her a bitch- although many did, and still do)
At the last local elections the British National Party polled almost twenty per cent of the local vote in several wards across my area. That's one in five.You can dismiss this if you like, you are almost pre-programmed to do so. Each of these votes is equal to yours, despite your oft' demonstrated self-delusional head up your own anus manner. You might think you are superior to the majority who pour scorn on all aspects of multi-culturalism, but actually, you're not.
Incidentally why not withdraw that head and finish the flippin' book you're trying to impress folk with...however long does it take you to read a book for Gawd's sake? Might I suggest some lighter reading? No, perhaps not...your undoubted melancholia might be compromised.
Is it the thread thats a curates or just some opinions?Do they not go hand in hand?
Do they not go hand in hand?
No Loving couples go hand in hand, cant see any loving couples here can you? ;) lol
No Loving couples go hand in hand, cant see any loving couples here can you? ;) lolAre you getting a negative vibe?:lol:
Melancholy Man
26-Jul-08, 18:47
You haven't told any, Scotsboy. It's been like arguing with string theory - you ain't even wrong.
Mostly certainly not wanting to throw Percy a bone (well, if I did, it would be from the arm I'd have to gnaw off), but part of the reason for the BNP's successes is, I think, the fauxialist 'anti-war' chimps or mock tudor liberals who've made clear just how much contempt they hold the working-classes (white or not) in; but prefer to demonstrate an obsequitous fascination with foreign dictators as long as they're not American-friendly and low personal morals.
Which is unfortunate, when you consider the tendancy for thuggery and drugs or sexual violence in the BNP ranks.
Which is unfortunate, when you consider the tendancy for thuggery and drugs or sexual violence in the BNP ranks.
So you dont like them then? ;)
And your evidence for the above is'........?
Isnt the above the same for all political parties?or just the ones you dont like :)
percy toboggan
28-Jul-08, 17:43
Mostly certainly not wanting to throw Percy a bone (well, if I did, it would be from the arm I'd have to gnaw off), .
You're 'armless enough already MM....hot air is all around us this week.
Lots of it generated by your good self but you're a bloke who likes the flow of his own words even more than I do :eek:...you'v e had a half-decent education and probably make for very dull company but....yer 'armless.
Now then....what did you think of that Copper that was demoted for referring to BMW's as 'Black mans's wheels' when he was presented with a model of one at a social event?
Seems a classic example of the shepherds of the multi-cult bending over backwards not to offend and constantly naval gazing...the multi-cult has robbed us of our free speech - well it has if you let it.
Far from 'harmless'...insidious, divisive and it makes for a lack of cohesion which serves no group well. It's a busted flush, and I do not like it.I Lump it, like I lump you....but I do not like it.
I suddenly remember an analagy I saw on 'William Tell' as a kid..you might remember 'Bear' I do...played by a big bearded fella whose name escapes me. He was demonstrating the power of unity. To do this he snapped a single twig. 'Breaks easily doesn't it' he explained to the child he was teaching..then he picked up a few dozen twigs and tried to break those...he couldn't. Stating the obvious that unity is strength.
The multi-cult has no such strength. Rather many 'twigs' living parallel lives, disparate communities with little or nothing in common and suspicious of each other. For all your allegedly wise words and your sandal wearing pals I'm with the 'Bear'
Multi cult can thrive with a common goal, common objectives and lots, and lots of room....like the USA..most other places it is failing. Italy for instance...and France...when introduced into societies which have been settled for centuries it meets problems..it is only British reserve, and Britiish tolerance which is holding things together here at the moment.
We must hope some of it is rubbing off on our more recent guests.
Now then....what did you think of that Copper that was demoted for referring to BMW's as 'Black mans's wheels' when he was presented with a model of one at a social event?
Seems a classic example of the shepherds of the multi-cult bending over backwards not to offend and constantly naval gazing...the multi-cult has robbed us of our free speech - well it has if you let it.
Percy.....free speech is only as free as the law allows us......and frankly............that copper deserved everything he got.
Let's not pretend that people who make racist remarks....particularly when that person is a policeman...........are not aware that they are being racist.......but are hoping that those who hear them are also as racist as they are.
Far from 'harmless'...insidious, divisive and it makes for a lack of cohesion which serves no group well. It's a busted flush, and I do not like it.I Lump it, like I lump you....but I do not like it.
So dislike it.........but don't be upset if you get in trouble for making the same kind of comment.
It really doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree with the law..........it exists and has to be obeyed.....and if you don't like it........you just have to lump it..........and it makes no difference complaining about a fact of UK life.
After all.......you can still think what you like.
I suddenly remember an analagy I saw on 'William Tell' as a kid..you might remember 'Bear' I do...played by a big bearded fella whose name escapes me. He was demonstrating the power of unity. To do this he snapped a single twig. 'Breaks easily doesn't it' he explained to the child he was teaching..then he picked up a few dozen twigs and tried to break those...he couldn't. Stating the obvious that unity is strength.
The multi-cult has no such strength. Rather many 'twigs' living parallel lives, disparate communities with little or nothing in common and suspicious of each other. For all your allegedly wise words and your sandal wearing pals I'm with the 'Bear'
Multi cult can thrive with a common goal, common objectives and lots, and lots of room....like the USA..most other places it is failing. Italy for instance...and France...when introduced into societies which have been settled for centuries it meets problems..it is only British reserve, and Britiish tolerance which is holding things together here at the moment.
We must hope some of it is rubbing off on our more recent guests.
British tolerance? As exemplified by yourself?
Personally, I tend to take people as I find them........and the only reason I'd kick them into touch is if they lied to me.................I loathe liars.
The term, 'Racist', is majorly overused and devalued through cases like the cop's bmw comment.
percy toboggan
29-Jul-08, 19:33
[quote=Oddquine;412223]Percy.....free speech is only as free as the law allows us......and frankly............that copper deserved everything he got.
Let's not pretend that people who make racist remarks....particularly when that person is a policeman...........quote]
He didn't make a 'racist' remark...
All the copper deserved was his model car...sometimes used by gangsters and drug dealers, a disproportionate number of whom are black. The BMW is quite a blingy car too...a totem for the shallowest to declare 'hey man, look at me'.....I know exactly what he was driving at.
Incidentally I have an Audi...far better image and they do not rust.
The thing that shocked me recently was the BNP guy who was being interviewed about the BNP's views on Jews. The response was "We see them as our friends now".
What does that say about a) the BNP b)Jews or c) the news network that gave that rubbish airtime?:confused
percy toboggan
30-Jul-08, 20:34
The thing that shocked me recently was the BNP guy who was being interviewed about the BNP's views on Jews. The response was "We see them as our friends now".
What does that say about a) the BNP b)Jews or c) the news network that gave that rubbish airtime?:confused
If it was the BBC, which I doubt, it said it was doing it's job properly and reporting all legitimate and legal strands of opinion.
Could also say the Moslems enemy is the Jews friend and vice-versa perhaps...I don't know.
I pay my licence fee...I've voted for the BNP several times...I have nothing against Jews (or moderate muslims)so long as they do not try to change Britain to suit themselves....ie giving all footballers saturday off!:) or attempt breed those with Christian values into a minority within a century at the taxpayers expense.
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.