Genectics and Environmental Factors

[crustyroll]

I have spoken to the vet who has said that the main cause of joint problems in Labradors is bad breeding and bad diet. He could not find anything on joint problems associated with on exercise, probably because it is common sense. I am sure as a professional he would be interested in reading any medical reports that other may be aware of.Especially for anyone out there interested in Labradors.

A Vet that specialises in radiography and sat on the BVA Hip/Elbow scoring panel told me directly "A dogs hips and elbows and joints are mainly 75% environmental and 25% genetic"

As to bad breeding and bad diet, thats people's stupidity or greed in play.

[munron]

I am not to sure that I understand your post, I am a bit tellytubbie this morning (dipsy and la la) so that could account for it.

What did he mean by enviromental? Did he expand on it and has he written a paper on his findings? Did he state that a 6 month old lab/large dogs should not be exercised at all?

I dont think that there is any disagreement that over exercise can cause problems, but still a puppy needs exercise. Maybe if you could define what you class as acceptable exercise and what is not.

I am genuinely interested as I own large dogs and as we may get another one next year I always want to know what is best for them.

[labsrus]

Perhaps I can help clarify as I was with Crustyroll when this vet made his statement. He meant that only 25% genetics is responsible for how a dog's joints turn out, the other 75% is caused by environmental factors such as food and exercise. This vet has a lot of experience and I drive all the way to Manchester to get my dogs hip scored by him as he is so good. He predicts on the spot what the results will be and is always spot on. I dont know if he has written any papers but I respect his knowledge and experience completely in these matters.

I breed Labs myself and have done a lot of research into the effects of exercise on raising puppies. I have made mistakes in the past so am extra careful now with my own dogs and how I advise puppy owners.

I recommend new owners only give their pups 5 minutes of exercise per month of age, eg at 12 weeks they would have a maximum of 15 minutes walking a day, at 16 weeks 20 minutes etc. No jumping up onto couches, car boots etc or running up and down stairs as this can affect joint developement. A puppy only really needs playing in the garden, short training sessions and a few minutes lead walking (according to age) to keep it socialised. Rough play with other dogs should also be avoided.


I have had someone in the past with one of my pups who listened to all my advise then completely disregarded it! She was walking her 5 month old puppy for 5 miles and allowing him to jump a 6 foot drop onto concrete. Needless to say he needed 2 operations on his elbows as he developed elbow OCD / dysplasia. The vets of course said it was all genetic but as no other puppies I bred (before 0r after)had such problems I really doubt it could all have been genetic in light of the trauma his poor joints were exposed to so young. All Vets are not experts though they would like us to think so, its just a pity more dont advise new owners more apprpriately about exercising large breeds.

Diet is also an important factor in healthy joints and the pup should be kept in a slim (not anorexic) condition while growing. With Labs you should not be able to see the ribs but feel them easily when you run your hands along their sides. When viewed from above they should have a definite waistline. Dog puppies especially grow very quickly at times and are therefor more prone to jopint problems so you should try to feed enough to maintain a steady growth but not so much they grow too fast.

The danger period for hip dysplasia and elbow dysplasia?OCD is between 5 - 9 months so extra care should be taken with both diet and exercise at this time. Once they mature at around 12 - 18 months then exercise can be increased till the dog will be able to do as much as YOU can tolerate!

Dogs are not allowed to compete at KC agility or working trials till they are 18 months, this is because doing strenuous exercise before that age can cause joint problems. If they are slowly built up then there should be much less chance of any problems.

A lot of the problems caused today are by unexperienced / uncaring breeders who breed from dogs who are not health tested. If you buy a puppy always make sure parents are hip scored and preferably elbow scored (and eye tested if appropriate) and do your research before so you know what the results mean. Insist on seeing the paperwork, anyone who avoids discussing or showing test results probably has not bothered to get them done. You can always check with the Kennel Club if the parents have been tested as long as you know the registered name of the parents.

Responsible breeders should point out the breed's health problems and advise accordingly on exercise and feeding. If you go a puppy farmer or backyard breeder then I am afraid you are asking for trouble despite often paying not much less than you would with a responsible breeder.


Hope that is of some help to anyone interested in this subject.

[munron]

Thank you Labsrus for putting into words that what I am sure that Crustyroll was trying to.

I totally agree about the over exercise point and the owner with the 5 month old doing 5 miles and jumping onto concrete is just plain stupidity. I believe the post from Crustyroll in the original thread was misconstrued because she said At 6 months of age, Peedie should hardly be doing any walking at all, - this does not bear weight with your comments, at 6 months she / he should be getting half an hour.

I would also like to add that I agree with your comments on breeders, I am firm believer that if you breed you should be contributing to the maintenance of the breed as a standard or an improvement, not because your dog looks cute and you want to clone them.

I do have a spiel on HD and OCD but I think the whole point in this thread to advise potential new owners of the importance of reading up on any breed they wish to own.

[labsrus]

Well Munron that's a difficult one because the 30 minutes should be the total exercise for the day, maybe I am not so good at explaining after all as I agree with crustyrolls comments in the original post, she should be getting very little walking at 6 months unless of course she is restricted in the house, perhaps crated for a part of the day and does not have a garden to run around in.

So if a puppy is getting no time running around in the garden then yes half an hour walking would be fine, but that would probably be split into two 15 minute walks a day or three 10 minute ones.

If on the other hand they are out running around playing in the garden ( or house for that matter)for half an hour then they would not really need anymore on top of that. Lead walking on hard surfaces is quite tough on young joints so really its best if it is kept to an absolute minimum. Obviously you still need to socialise your dog but its easy enough to go to training classes or pop into town in the car / bus without walking the pup too far.

I think a lot of people do far more than that, maybe they only do half an hour at a time but often I have met people in the forest for example a good distance from the entrance so by the time they get back they will have travellled a fair bit more that the pup should be doing.
On speaking to one such person thay said their puppy gets 3 good walks a day so they are too tired to do any damage in the house as though this is a good thing. Good for the furniture maybe but not the poor dog's joints!


Its ok with a really young pup as you can easily pick it up when its tired but I certainly couldnt do that with a 6 month old Lab puppy!

[Liz]

Thanks Crustyroll and labsrus for bringing this to our attention.
I am sure there are a lot of people who do not realise just how much damage overexercising a puppy can cause.
I have to confess I didn't until I was doing research on the internet before I got Benjy and found the advice re exercise. He was only taken out on the lead for a few minutes at at time (once he'd been vaccinated)and the rest of the time was limited play in the garden. Mind you it's not easy keeping them from climbing up but thankfully Benjy's legs were just a bit too short! Not so easy with a bigger breed.
Still worth it to reduce the chances of joint and muscle problems later on in life.
Well done both of you for being such caring and informed breeders. If only all breeders were like you!

[porshiepoo]

Part of the problem is that the average owner doesn't understand the need to be aware of bone problems within breeds.
TBH I didn't until I got a Great Dane and did heaps of research cos I got confused and worried about the differing stories I was getting about how much exercise, how much protein in food etc etc.

Another part of the problem with Inherited / Genetic problems has to lay at the door of the breeder (not all breeders) who breed from stock that is afflicted or whose breeding has a history of it. Most breeders are responsible and caring, one hopes, but unfortunately it only takes a handful of baddies.
If an unsuspecting pet owner buys a puppy from such stock then the chances are far greater that their pup will develop bone structure problems regardless of how well fed / exercised or learned the dog and owner are.

Take the German Shepherds of today in the show ring. The breed standard has not changed yet the whole conformation of this breed has declined in my eyes. Their back ends have been bred to slant at ridiculous angles which has caused a serious weakness in the breed. Admittedly the trend appears to be to breed the Shepherd smaller now but that's an attempt to alleviate the problem caused by the ridiculous angulation.
I have had both Old English type GSDs and the ridiculously slanted ones (Rescue - not by specifically wanting one like that) and I have to say the difference is amazingly obvious.

[munron]

I have been thinking about this on and off all day, must admit it is quite nice to have both brain cells working for a change.

I am thinking of a scenario were a puppy is over exercised, in line with your theory. Not extreme over exercise but just too much to soon. This puppy then develops joint problems, is this because he is unlucky or is it because there has been an inherent weakness initially that may not have come to light if exercised within the limits you think are sensible. I am assuming (maybe wrongly) that not every over exercised puppy develops problems.

If the puppy is unlucky I would still be asking why that specific dog and not the next and if it was an existing issue exacerbated by over exercise would you take the risk of breeding from that bitch or using that stud again?

I hope I am being clear but if not forgive me, teething brat on the go

PS I would be interested in the chaps name in Manchester so I can google him to read what he has written on the subject, thanks.

[crustyroll]

I think it's one of those questions that there is no correct answer for. Two puppies can be treated exactly the same, have the same or close hip and elbow scores, yet one could have problems later on in life and the other not. There are no guarantees whatever you do, you can only try to minimise any problems by careful upbringing.

I do know of pups that have been over exercised with no problems becoming apparanet, others can only tolerate a small amount before problems set in. Problems don't have to appear at a young age, a relatives Lab only began to develop arthritis and joint problems from the age of 4 but she firmly believes it's due to the amount of exercise she had as a growing puppy.

Some Sire's/Dam's can have slightly higher scores and yet produce low scoring puppies or low scoring parents can produce high scoring puppies. I think genetically there is always a chance that one pup in a litter can have a higher score than their littermates but I can't remember the exact wording on that. That does not mean you wouldn't use that pairing again as you could be 'throwing out the baby with bath water' so to speak. You could loose so many Labrador features by trying to concentrate solely on hips and elbows.

Mark Lingard is best known for his work with horses and if you google him you'll find him on horse sites rather than dog/pet sites.