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teenybash
11-Jul-08, 17:41
Do you feel conscription would help in the fight to give society a sense of decency and morals or do you feel it would all be a waste of time.
Please share your thoughts.....:roll:

justine
11-Jul-08, 17:45
yes, i do and the reason being it might give some discipline, rules and respect to all. I dont believe they should be sent away from uk but to live under military govern for 2-3yrs would not harm anyone..

northener
11-Jul-08, 18:04
If you mean conscripting into the regular armed forces, then the answer is a resounding NO.

The last thing any professional service wants is unwilling slackers. They are simply baggage and would not fit into a modern fighting service.

Remember the old saying: "One volounteer is worth ten pressed men."

.

Rheghead
11-Jul-08, 18:05
I'm against conscription purely because I wouldn't want anyone to do what they don't want to do. It harms a person's career. And it would be very expensive on the tax payer to have a load of young people in charge of expensive equipment that they don't care about. Plus there is no military advantage to it.

jings00
11-Jul-08, 18:05
yes, i do and the reason being it might give some discipline, rules and respect to all. I dont believe they should be sent away from uk but to live under military govern for 2-3yrs would not harm anyone..

Pretty much agree with what you are saying Justine....but if they were required to be sent overseas, then....?? i don't know, maybe

Solus
11-Jul-08, 18:22
If you mean conscripting into the regular armed forces, then the answer is a resounding NO.

The last thing any professional service wants is unwilling slackers. They are simply baggage and would not fit into a modern fighting service

I am sure there would be willing sergeants, RSM'S, Corporals etc more than willing to make them fit into a modern fighting service ! :)
amazing what a ear drum about to burst can do for motivation and facing up to some one who aint in the slightest intimidated by a spotty loud youth.

bekisman
11-Jul-08, 18:33
Northerner: 'The last thing any professional service wants is unwilling slackers. They are simply baggage and would not fit into a modern fighting service.' - well said, fully agree!

Thumper
11-Jul-08, 18:45
I agree with the idea of conscription,it would help a lot of "misdirected" youths.I also agree with Northerner that they would probably have no place in a modern fighting service but they could still be made to do other things that would be of help that would not endanger other solidiers safety,make them cook,clean,and put in a full days work....they might just learn how the real world works then x

teenybash
11-Jul-08, 18:47
I would think conscription would weed out the men from the boys through thorough training and discipline...............I am sure there would be some treasures uncovered that would otherwise be out there doing what they are doing now.......Those that didn't make to a professional standard, fit for purpose, could be given non combat duties and left to the more menial tasks. Conscription would at the very least, provide a starting point to try and heal the ills of society and bring a sense of respect.
Not all of us are meant to be lean, mean, fighting machines but, some rules, regulations and firm guide lines within a military setting would do no harm. It might even provide a sense of challenge to give individuals a feeling of self worth :eek:

bobandag16
11-Jul-08, 18:48
If you mean conscripting into the regular armed forces, then the answer is a resounding NO.

The last thing any professional service wants is unwilling slackers. They are simply baggage and would not fit into a modern fighting service.

Remember the old saying: "One volounteer is worth ten pressed men."

.
with you all the way you can take ahorse to water but cannot make it drink. back to the parents to make there children good . not opt out try scouts cadets youth clubs. last resort try the church.

percy toboggan
11-Jul-08, 19:00
I voted yes, but with the proviso of a non-militaristic service element.
Despatch sixteen year olds to the four corners of the third world for six months following six months rigorous trianing in some useful endeavour, such as installing water filtration and irrigation systems. First Aid perhaps and rudimentary medical care , like innoculating folk. Character building stuff.

Those unwilling to take part should have the family home demolished and be issued with a shipping container to live in beneath spaghetti junction, or any number of underpasses on the M25. University admission should be refused later in life and other disincentives to shirk twelve months duty to the nation.

Lord Flasheart
11-Jul-08, 19:09
If you mean conscripting into the regular armed forces, then the answer is a resounding NO.

The last thing any professional service wants is unwilling slackers. They are simply baggage and would not fit into a modern fighting service.

Remember the old saying: "One volounteer is worth ten pressed men."

.

What Northerner said.

Although things like "Bad Lads Army" show that militairy discipline can sort out some lads out (I think one or two actually signed up at the end of one series) volunteers are the way to go.

golach
11-Jul-08, 19:17
If you mean conscripting into the regular armed forces, then the answer is a resounding NO.
The last thing any professional service wants is unwilling slackers. They are simply baggage and would not fit into a modern fighting service.
Remember the old saying: "One volounteer is worth ten pressed men."
.
I am with Northerner 100% on this issue, I was a Royal Naval Reservist for 27 years and my last 9 years was as the New Entry Chief Petty Officer, my remit was to train 17/18 year old volunteers to be young members of the RNR, even some of the young volunteers soon found out that "Life in a Dark Blue Suit" was not to their liking, simple tasks such as the folding and stowing away of their clothes in the Naval Tradition ( by the way there is always a reason for this) used to upset some of these mothers little darlings, and they used to throw a hissy, as they did at home with their mothers. Of course they became even more upset, when no sympathy was shown or given by their Senior Rates, or their Mess mates, and a punishment had to be served.
The individuals conduct reflected on his Mess mates also, and they often felt let down, as that particular mess could lose privileges. Being in a uniformed environment means team work and loyalty and discipline, traits that I do not see in many teengagers today. So IMHO I do not think Conscription would work.

fingalmacool
11-Jul-08, 19:20
If the young people are not in any kind of education/college/job by the time they are 18, then sign them all up, yep i know what you are thinking, some of them leave school at 18, yep thats true and there could be the same deal for them when they are 20. how many kids leave school at 16 only to doss around the street causing problems, sign em up i say"stand by your bunks":confused

teenybash
11-Jul-08, 19:48
If you mean conscripting into the regular armed forces, then the answer is a resounding NO.

The last thing any professional service wants is unwilling slackers. They are simply baggage and would not fit into a modern fighting service.

Remember the old saying: "One volounteer is worth ten pressed men."

.

No I did not mean conscription into the regular army or any branch of the military to lag beside the professionals. Nor did I mean conscription in the WW11 sense but, a modern approach to the ever increasing problems of youth crime where concsiption would/could play a part. It's down to you how you would see such a thing.....or not.
The debate is open to be debated......:eek:

golach
11-Jul-08, 19:55
No I did not mean conscription into the regular army or any branch of the military to lag beside the professionals. Nor did I mean conscription in the WW11 sense but, a modern approach to the ever increasing problems of youth crime where concsiption would/could play a part. It's down to you how you would see such a thing.....or not.
The debate is open to be debated......:eek:
So you do not want National Service as they have in many countries and it is compulsory. So what would you have the government do with these "young criminals" , your words not mine? What useful purpose would they be able to do? And how much is it going to cost?

northener
11-Jul-08, 20:01
No I did not mean conscription into the regular army or any branch of the military to lag beside the professionals. Nor did I mean conscription in the WW11 sense but, a modern approach to the ever increasing problems of youth crime where concsiption would/could play a part. It's down to you how you would see such a thing.....or not.
The debate is open to be debated......:eek:

In that case, I believe that Percy's idea has much merit. There are plenty of roles that could be taken up by the Yoof of today to give them a challenging experience outside their normal existance.

As an aside: Am I right in thinking that the Israelis' have to attend a Kibbutz? It's a similar role there to what I am talking about here.

golach
11-Jul-08, 20:07
As an aside: Am I right in thinking that the Israelis' have to attend a Kibbutz? It's a similar role there to what I am talking about here.
Northerner!! another great idea, lets get Camp 165 Watten started again as a Kaithness Kibbutz [lol]

TBH
11-Jul-08, 20:10
What Northerner said.

Although things like "Bad Lads Army" show that militairy discipline can sort out some lads out (I think one or two actually signed up at the end of one series) volunteers are the way to go.Bad lads army was pure entertainment that is all. If these young guys didn't give a damn they would just be booted off the camp.
The only people the two corporals had any control over were the ones that were willing to take it seriously but they to could have walked away at any time if they wished. The ones that made me laugh on the show were the so-called hardmen that went on the show for a laugh thinking they could show these soldiers how hard they were but we all know that these two corporals would have ripped them apart verbally and physically if they were allowed.

teenybash
11-Jul-08, 22:16
So you do not want National Service as they have in many countries and it is compulsory. So what would you have the government do with these "young criminals" , your words not mine? What useful purpose would they be able to do? And how much is it going to cost?

This is not about 'what I want'....it's about what can be done..... talk about it, give your opinion. Who knows maybe somewhere someone will come up with an idea........Do you think conscription, in whatever form, could/would be the answer and if not what do you think .....:eek:

pat
11-Jul-08, 22:23
Parents are to blame for most of the disruptive behaviour of younger generation.
Make parenting classes before and until children are teenagers mandatory for parents and parents responsible for childrens behaviour and any vandalism/unacceptable behaviour until youngsters are 16.
When 16 is reached the penalties for vandalism/underage drinking etc becomes the responsibility of the youngster and parent combined.
Why should everyone have to pay for the few disruptive part of the population.
When you see the underage drinkers - phone the police
When you see someone smashing shop windows - phone the police
Do not turn the other cheek or pretend you are blind
If the culprits get chased enough they eventually get fed up and leave.

golach
11-Jul-08, 22:34
This is not about 'what I want'....it's about what can be done..... talk about it, give your opinion. Who knows maybe somewhere someone will come up with an idea........Do you think conscription, in whatever form, could/would be the answer and if not what do you think .....:eek:
I have already posted my opinion. I do not think it would work, for the reasons I already stated.

davem
11-Jul-08, 23:31
All the people I've spoken to about their own National Service were better able to bend, avoid or skirt the rules after their stints. Not one particularly enjoyed it (except maybe my Dad who taught map reading and got an instant promotion, so people were on a charge if they hit him). You got a generation of people able to fold things neatly and make shoes exceptionally shiny and paint anything that didn't move white. People didn't conform they just learnt what they could get away with, they stole bits of kit off each other for inspections so the slowest ended up on a charge. They learnt to cope in a harsh environment where the rules weren't fair or sensible, just there to stick to.

If I'd met a single conscript who felt a better person afterwards I would say, what really happened was people learnt to be fly and survived. It wouldn't solve any ills just take a couple of good years off people to resent or be philosophical about through their adult life.

_Ju_
12-Jul-08, 07:21
When I was as old as the young men who had obligatory military service in Portugal, it was a 2 year interruption of young mens lives. I lived the disruption of their lives as a collegue and friend and felt how unfair it was. When military service is compulsory, due to the numbers and different types of people flooding the army, it has zero educational worth. If you wanted to go to college/university, you didn't know if you would be able to get your service deffered every year untill you were finished. If you didn't get deffered, you often wouldn't go back to college/uni after you finished your service. If you didn't want to study futher, you couldn't get a job untill you had completed military service. So if you weren't called straight out of school (which often happened because of the huge numbers being processed through the service), you were stuck in limbo untill you were called or got your card freeing you of service. Ontop of it all, it was where many young men, being far from home for the first time, would go crazy on weekends off, learn about pot, etc, etc..... (a little bit like jail: a petty criminal will, in jail, often take a masters degree in crime). This would be defeating the purpose of compulsive conscription here.

Responsibility for raising children that are respectful and upright resides with the family. If they reach 16 without learning values, you are about 10 years too late to teach them that, even with a rigorous stint in the forces.

EDDIE
12-Jul-08, 10:48
Do you feel conscription would help in the fight to give society a sense of decency and morals or do you feel it would all be a waste of time.
Please share your thoughts.....:roll:

Not really i think the prison should be run army style. Prisons should be run the exact same way as the army prisons in colchester instead of being run like a holiday camp.
Imagine an inmate telling a corparal or sergeant were to go i bet the inmate wouldnt do it second time after the corporal has punished the inmate and all the other inmates i bet the prison population would decrease.After watching bad lads it fairly opens your eyes.

katarina
12-Jul-08, 11:41
I think it should be brought back but only for those who have reach a certain age and are not in gainfull employment. So many youths need the discipline, the sense of direction, the opportunity to learn a trade and some even the kick up the backside! If they really didn't want to go the answer would be to find a job and stop hanging around getting into trouble then pleading - well, we've got nothing to do!
On the down side, care would need to be taken not to train those who would revel in it to be professional killers.

bekisman
12-Jul-08, 11:48
Eddie: "..army prisons in Colchester instead of being run like a holiday camp".
I remember in c1972 taking a squaddie to Colchester, I was an NCO and all I had to do was hand this bloke over and get my 'live body chit' sorted. Got to the main gate, where a Sergeant started screaming at me to pick up the kit bag and pack of this squaddie and screaming in my ear, frog-marched me and the prisoner around the side of the square to a Nissan-hut, I was forced to mark time holding his packs, whilst the poor unfortunate bloke was marched inside. The sergeant appeared; "drop those and 'F-off' and he disappeared inside... phew!

In 1976 I was obliged again to take another squaddie to Colchester, I waited at the main gate, a sergeant appeared "hello mate, is this 'so and so'?" I confirmed it was, waiting for the bomb-burst.. he turned to the prisoner; "hey lad, pick up your gear and follow me" (I went as well) no double marching, until we got to a new building - the Nissan-huts had gone.. I followed them in and the Sergeant asked the prisoner to sit at a table to be documented. I could not believe my eyes, but this prisoner, sat back in his chair and put his feet on the table! "put your feet down, now there's a good lad" (and he did).. A few minutes later I got my chit and with a friendly "you'll find a cup of tea in the mess" I was away.. NOW I do not know if this was the norm OR the level of 'fear'(?) has changed... maybe among the Org we have folks who've experienced either periods?

Valerie Campbell
12-Jul-08, 16:25
I think a distinction should be made between conscription and National Service. My Dad was conscripted in 1940 to fight the Axis powers. When the war ended, he had to do a year's National Service. The two are very, very different.

bonami
12-Jul-08, 21:06
I think it should be brought back teach some of our wasted youths respect for themselves and others. Someone said it wasnt right to make them do things they didnt want to do by what I see they already do things that nobody wants them to do.Also I doubt most of them would last a fortnight untill theyed be kicked out as a waste of space.

teenybash
12-Jul-08, 21:27
I think a distinction should be made between conscription and National Service. My Dad was conscripted in 1940 to fight the Axis powers. When the war ended, he had to do a year's National Service. The two are very, very different.

I take your point Valerie, my own father being 'conscripted'
When I asked the question I was more thinking of young people being put into a compulsory training unit/organization where they would be disciplined in a fair minded manner and trained in trades and occupations that would serve them well in civillian life............medics, engineers, mechanics, cooks etc....the aim being to guide them into confidant responsible adulthood. :eek:

Lord Flasheart
12-Jul-08, 21:28
I think a distinction should be made between conscription and National Service. My Dad was conscripted in 1940 to fight the Axis powers. When the war ended, he had to do a year's National Service. The two are very, very different.

I agree, I think whatever its called the Services dont want or need to be made responsible for sorting out societies social problems. That is why I said no. If I were a training NCO I would want all the guys to WANT to be there and be willing to learn, after all you may be relying them in life threatening situations. As has been said before all our guys are volunteers and despite the best efforts of Gordon Broon our forces, pound for pound punch well above their weight. Flooding the services with a load of Tracey's and Dave's who dont want to be there is just going to make the guys who do leave.

Although I do smile at the thought of a hoody mine clearance battalion, simply line up in a straight line and ... [evil]

DISCLAIMER : The above is a joke. Anyone taking offence should first reset their sense of humour. If this fails check your "Ooooh I am outraged" meter. It is most likely pegged, please refer to the first line of the disclaimer and reset. Lord Flasheart takes no responsibility for Sense of Humour failures or Outrage Meter overloads.

northener
13-Jul-08, 21:03
I agree, I think whatever its called the Services dont want or need to be made responsible for sorting out societies social problems. That is why I said no. If I were a training NCO I would want all the guys to WANT to be there and be willing to learn, after all you may be relying them in life threatening situations. As has been said before all our guys are volunteers and despite the best efforts of Gordon Broon our forces, pound for pound punch well above their weight. Flooding the services with a load of Tracey's and Dave's who dont want to be there is just going to make the guys who do leave.

Although I do smile at the thought of a hoody mine clearance battalion, simply line up in a straight line and ... [evil]

DISCLAIMER : The above is a joke. Anyone taking offence should first reset their sense of humour. If this fails check your "Ooooh I am outraged" meter. It is most likely pegged, please refer to the first line of the disclaimer and reset. Lord Flasheart takes no responsibility for Sense of Humour failures or Outrage Meter overloads.


M'Lord I am outraged at your suggestion that 'Hoodies' should be used for mine clearance duties.

I for one find it shocking that you would line up poor creatures such as these and force them to a murderous end. They do not know any better, it is their natural instinct to thieve and kill the innocent, as this is what they were taught to do by there parents.

What harm do 'Hoodies' really do? They wander about in fields and bother nobody. Whatever next? Jackdaws in chain gangs? Rooks forced to double on the spot for hours on end?


............Oh those 'Hoodies', Ah, I see know. I thought you meant Hooded Crows.

Yup, blow those (expletives deleted) 'Hoodies' off the face of the Earth.

rob murray
14-Jul-08, 09:00
Perhaps some posters should realise that the modern army doesnt resemble the TV reality show Dads Army

sweetpea
14-Jul-08, 18:24
If the young people are not in any kind of education/college/job by the time they are 18, then sign them all up, yep i know what you are thinking, some of them leave school at 18, yep thats true and there could be the same deal for them when they are 20. how many kids leave school at 16 only to doss around the street causing problems, sign em up i say"stand by your bunks":confused


Agree in some ways - depends what type of teenager your talking about or would that include those with learning disabilities, mental illness, physical disability, caring responsibilities or just the ones who can't get a job because they have no confidence and were never taught employability skills at school.
Need some educating of the employers as well. Some young people I know have been verbally abused and threatened all within the first week of the job or have not received the training they need or expected to be mind readers. What kind of impression of the world of work is that? I think a lot of young people get a bad start to their working life these days. It's ok if your academic and off to Uni or the cream of the crop with the requisite 4 standard grades and the personal connections to get an apprenticeship.
While I do think national service would be a good thing for some I don't think conscription is the answer.

Melancholy Man
14-Jul-08, 22:30
As an aside: Am I right in thinking that the Israelis' have to attend a Kibbutz? It's a similar role there to what I am talking about here.

Hmmm, not quite. The kibbutzim were founded as, and after over 100 years of Zionism remain co-operative agrarian-based communities in which adults of all ages as well as children work and reside.

Israeli Jews, as well as Druzes and Circassians, however, on reaching maturity, are required to serve an extended period (and one month a year until their early 40s) in the military which, unlike the British military, has no officer class. All individuals choice at basic rank and find themselves in a true citizens' military. This applies to women and men alike, although for obvious reasons, women are more likely to exempted for nuptial reasons.

For non-citizens (Jewish or not) there is also Sar-El, which allows a three week period in non-combat roles alongside enlisted soldiers.

That said, can you imagine some of the directionless souls from our streets handling a gun? I don't just mean working out which end to hold, but also how to remain standing or retain control of their bladders when firing.

northener
14-Jul-08, 22:36
Thanks for that MM, interesting post.

And welcome to the Org!

N.

Melancholy Man
14-Jul-08, 22:50
Fit like 'e craic? Or, l'chaim!

loobyloo
15-Jul-08, 06:53
I think it's a great idea. Let's get a whole load of problem kids from diabolical housing estates, train them how to kill people and let them back out on the streets a couple of years later. That'll solve all our 'yoof' problems and I'm sure our armed forces will be delighted.

katarina
15-Jul-08, 10:50
I think it's a great idea. Let's get a whole load of problem kids from diabolical housing estates, train them how to kill people and let them back out on the streets a couple of years later. That'll solve all our 'yoof' problems and I'm sure our armed forces will be delighted.

Or give them a trade, a sense of responsibility, teach them to respect discipline, give them a sense of belonging. Oh and while I'm at it, post them in places to help clear up the aftermath of war or famine - make them realize just how lucky they are. And if they get into any trouble once they are back home - send them back to do it all over again. Solve the problem of over crowding in prisons with petty criminals.
Only send them to the front line if they volunteer - those are our elite - our real heros.

Melancholy Man
15-Jul-08, 12:39
~*slaps whitewash around*~

Melancholy Man
15-Jul-08, 12:41
Members of professional military will recognize that they're electing for situations in which they will face real possibilities of death or serious injury. They like inspiration leaders (Petreus for 2012!) or the knowledge they'd valued (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7439257.stm) at home or to be cared (http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44723000/jpg/_44723201_archbishop.jpg) for in case of injury. What they don't like is piss-takes, and this will include foisting on them thousands of nyaffs and gadjes who don't want to be there. It's true that the Armed Forces are one of the few bodies which will take otherwise unskilled youngsters and train them up (return to widespread apprenticeships?), but, again, they'd prefer a voluntary basis.

(Other piss-takes include Defence Secretaries telling them that it's reasonable they get paid less than buss drivers, because they're mostly knuckleheads who wouldn't have got a decent job on civvie street; or being thought of as knuckleheads or psychopaths until there's an opportunity to portray them as duped conscripts in 'illegal wars'.)

pat
15-Jul-08, 13:54
never in my wildest dreams did I ever think I would agree with Gordon Brown on any subject.
Perish the thought.
The parents made the problem - they have to sort it out - why should everyone else have to pay for the parents errors.
If I have done something wrong - whatever it may be - I pay the cost - in money, time or apologies to correct my errors, dont expect someone else to pay my overdraft because I have overspent - same difference as far as I am concerned - same responsibility.

No conscription - why foist the problem onto the forces, they have enough to cope with without this.
If they tried to put these 'social problems' in the forces - where would the staff come from to watch over these little erks?
The forces staff are off fighting Bliars wars and understaffed already - would they get funding to cover or would there be further cut backs to our troops and suppies in the far flung areas of conflict in order for these 'social problems to have colour tvs in rooms, better ablutions and be mollycoddled whilst our forces in conflict areas do without basics?

Definitely NO to any form of entry to forces unless it is what the 'social problem' wishes and that is only if they pass the entry exams the same as every other candidate.

Melancholy Man
15-Jul-08, 16:15
never in my wildest dreams did I ever think I would agree with Gordon Brown on any subject.

Apart from the implication of being dealt with by active service units. What was that, Jacqui, you made people think you were advocating dragging A&E doctors away to puppy-walk villains? Report to the U-turn office, I'll sort you out.

Melancholy Man
16-Jul-08, 21:52
Thanks for that MM, interesting post.

Going back to this point, what a gut wrenching story (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7508715.stm).

loobyloo
17-Jul-08, 22:20
Or give them a trade, a sense of responsibility, teach them to respect discipline, give them a sense of belonging. Oh and while I'm at it, post them in places to help clear up the aftermath of war or famine - make them realize just how lucky they are. And if they get into any trouble once they are back home - send them back to do it all over again. Solve the problem of over crowding in prisons with petty criminals.
Only send them to the front line if they volunteer - those are our elite - our real heros.

Do you think the armed forces is the best place to instill these values? Do you believe that they want to be given our social problems to solve? Is that their function?
Are they all lucky? Let's just generalise and say that every youngster who has offended has done so because they are 'ungrateful' and square bashing will solve all their ills. Give them all a trade: who's going to pay for that? Who's going to help those with learning/medical disabilities to gain qualifications? If they can't function in 'normal' society, what makes you think that they will adapt to regimented, in some cases, brutal regimes? Perhaps it is the answer for some but it certainly isn't for all and I don't think our armed forces would thank you for it.