Guns Good-Guns Bad.. ..Hero, Vigilante or Pure Villain

[brokencross]

Heard this story on News At Ten last night. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080701/ap_on_re_us/burglary_shooting

I don't think I would want to live in a society where the gun is the law.
Here in the UK, farmer Tony Martin was locked up for shooting a burglar dead.. ..the big difference was that the burglars were actually IN HIS HOUSE in the middle of the night. Doesn't make it right but those are slightly mitigating circumstances wouldn't you say?

Surely this Joe Horn case is out and out murder especially considering the instructions he was given by the police on the phone. Reading other articles and news items, the race issue comes in to the debate as well.

From another source, here's an excerpt from the transcript of Joe Horn's 911 call:
Horn: He’s coming out the window right now, I gotta go, buddy. I’m sorry, but he’s coming out the window.
Dispatcher: Don’t, don’t — don’t go out the door. Mr. Horn? Mr. Horn?
Horn: They just stole something. I’m going after them, I’m sorry.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside.
Horn: I ain’t letting them get away with this s--t. They stole something. They got a bag of something.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside the house.
Horn: I’m doing this.
Dispatcher: Mr. Horn, do not go outside the house.
Horn: I’m sorry. This ain’t right, buddy.
Dispatcher: You’re going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun, I don’t care what you think.
Horn: You want to make a bet?
Dispatcher: OK? Stay in the house.
Horn: They’re getting away!
Dispatcher: That’s all right. Property’s not worth killing someone over, OK?
Horn: [curses]
Dispatcher: Don’t go out the house. Don’t be shooting nobody. I know you’re pissed and you’re frustrated, but don’t do it.
Horn: They got a bag of loot.
Dispatcher: OK. How big is the bag ... which way are they going?
Horn: I’m going outside. I’ll find out.
Dispatcher: I don’t want you going outside, Mr. Horn.
Horn: Well, here it goes, buddy. You hear the shotgun clicking and I’m going.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside.
Horn: [yelling] Move, you’re dead!
[Sound of shots being fired]
Then Horn is back on the phone:
Get the law over here quick. I've now, get, one of them's in the front yard over there, he's down, he almost run down the street. I had no choice. They came in the front yard with me, man, I had no choice! ... Get somebody over here quick, man."
Dispatcher: "Mister Horn, are you out there right now?"
Horn: "No, I am inside the house, I went back in the house. Man, they come right in my yard, I didn't know what the --- they was gonna do, I shot 'em, OK?"
Dispatcher: "Did you shoot somebody?
Horn: "Yes, I did, the cops are here right now."
Dispatcher: "Where are you right now?"
Horn: "I'm inside the house. ..."
Dispatcher: "Mister Horn, put that gun down before you shoot an officer of mine. I've got several officers out there without uniforms on."
Horn: "I am in the front yard right now. I am ..."
Dispatcher: "Put that gun down! There's officers out there without uniforms on. Do not shoot anybody else, do you understand me? I've got police out there..."
Horn: "I understand, I understand. I am out in the front yard waving my hand right now."
Dispatcher: "You don't have a gun with you, do you?
Horn: "No, no, no."
Dispatcher: "You see a uniformed officer? Now lay down on the ground and don't do nothing else."
Yelling is heard.
Dispatcher: "Lay down on the ground, Mister Horn. Do what the officers tell you to do right now."

What do Orgers think, was he justified shooting the men?

[Oddquine]

Nope......not at all!

[changilass]

It was premeditated murder, there was no reason for him to leave his house.

[*Martin*]

hmm I can see arguments for and against in all honesty.

Some could say he should've minded his own business and stayed in his house!
Others could say why should we stand by and let scum like that get away with it!

I can't make up my mind right now [disgust] although I'm swaying towards the second option (But then again it is murder)

Can't help but think the world isn't any worse off without these two people!

[The Angel Of Death]

If (and its a big one) we had the right to defend ourselves and our own properties then do you think this would act as a deterrent to some of the thieving scum that's out there at the moment

Obviously the act above was different and he should never have left the house however it comes back to the fact that his property was being stolen as ordinary citizens we don't have anyway to protect our house / family if someone breaks in and if you use force and injured / hurt bob the burglar then you can get in more trouble than he will be

We have all heard about the bloke who was breaking into a factory / business premises and fell through the roof and then managed to claim a large amount of compo for falling through the roof never mind the fact he shouldn't have been there in the first place.

The worst thing is we all know the country is going down the pan however no one (the law bods that is) are not bothered about ordinary peoples rights. The way I see it is that if you commit a crime then you should forgo most of your rights if you happened to get a pasting while trying to pinch my TV / DVD player then that's your own stupid fault for trying to in the first place and as for having to slop out while you was in the pokey for being bad well that's just tough it could be worse you should actually be out in the hills chopping tree's or breaking rocks bring us some chain gangs I say

[bekisman]

The US has different laws than us relating to burglary, although the two suspected burglars, Hernando Riascos Torres, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, were unemployed illegal immigrants from Colombia. Torres was deported to Colombia in 1999 after being sentenced to 25 years for cocaine convictions. They would know the law..

1.The grand jury concluded that Mr. Horn's use of deadly force did not rise to a criminal offence.

2. In limited circumstances, people also can use deadly force to protect their neighbour's property; for example, if a homeowner asks a neighbour to watch over his property while he's out of town.

*Patrick McCann, president of the Harris County Criminal Defense Lawyers Association.

“At the risk of being quoted, I’m not going to weep for those two,” he said of the burglars. “I guess what this comes down to, was this good judgment? No. Was it legal? Probably. Is it something that anyone is going to indict him for? Probably not.
“We are in Texas. Things are different here.”
*http://poligazette.com/2007/12/14/deadly-force/ (http://poligazette.com/2007/12/14/deadly-force/)


What's the problem?

[brokencross]

What's the problem?

One man, who was no doubt witnessing a crime, had done the right thing and telephoned the police to report it; when they did not arrive immediately and despite instructions from the police not to get involved; he took it upon himself to become the full extent of the law, the police, the judge, the jury and the executioner. Now surely that is a problem in anyones eyes.

[bekisman]

See 1. & 2. above

[brokencross]

and despite instructions from the police not to get involved;

I did read about these so-called "protection" laws before I made the original post.
Frankly it strikes me as being a licence to kill and harps back to the days of the old Wild West and cowboys.

Just because a law says it is permissible doesn't mean you have to shoot someone, but if you condone shooting someone, no it was two people, in the back when your life or own property was not under direct threat and the police told you to stay away, it is rather a sad reflection on your outlook.

If this is the type of law, justice, security and democracy that is going to be inflicted on Iraq and Afghanistan we would be better leaving them to their own devices.

Please tell me you are playing devils advocate when you say:-
What's the problem?

[bekisman]

Oh no, please don't tell me we're going down this well-trodden path again.

Get it into your head; this was NOT the UK it was the USA - they do things differently there.

One wonders what your reaction was on learning that it was an off-duty (that's 'off-duty') soldier who was the one that put a bullet in the head of that maniacal JCB driver in Israel, do you think he should have used non-lethal force? But then again that was Israel.
Not sure by your profile but don't think you're a high-powered legal man but again I emphasise that the Grand Jury came to their own conclusion - which seems to have been totally ignored by yourself.
We've all got our own conclusions of what we think is right and what we think is wrong; you have taken the path that it's the 'Wild West', 'Licence to Kill', you then continue waffling and somehow bringing Iraq and Afghanistan into it - eh?

I think you are being rather discourteous and may I say rather ignorant in telling me "it's a sad reflection on my outlook" - who on earth do you think you are to tell me that? I do not know what life has done to you, or what your life experiences are, but my own has been formed in a rather realistic and dare I say pragmatic way and I run my life accordingly.

What's the problem? you ask? I think from the above postings of mine it's pretty darn obvious..

[rich]

I believe the US Supreme Court recently vindicated the right of Americans to carry concealed weapons. Also the right to bear arms is in the constitution although there are different interpretations - for example is it only militias that have the right to bear arms? Or does the right extend to all adults, a gun licence having the same status as a driving licence? The predominantly Republican court would appear to have adopted the latter stance.
As someone who never missed a cowboy movie at the Thurso cinema I enjoyed blazing guns and guys in black hats biting the dust. Somehow if the cowboys and the Indians bashed each other with umbrellas it wouldn't have had the same effect.

[brokencross]

Oh no, please don't tell me we're going down this well-trodden path again.

Get it into your head; this was NOT the UK it was the USA - they do things differently there.

One wonders what your reaction was on learning that it was an off-duty (that's 'off-duty') soldier who was the one that put a bullet in the head of that maniacal JCB driver in Israel, do you think he should have used non-lethal force? But then again that was Israel.
Not sure by your profile but don't think you're a high-powered legal man but again I emphasise that the Grand Jury came to their own conclusion - which seems to have been totally ignored by yourself.
We've all got our own conclusions of what we think is right and what we think is wrong; you have taken the path that it's the 'Wild West', 'Licence to Kill', you then continue waffling and somehow bringing Iraq and Afghanistan into it - eh?

I think you are being rather discourteous and may I say rather ignorant in telling me "it's a sad reflection on my outlook" - who on earth do you think you are to tell me that? I do not know what life has done to you, or what your life experiences are, but my own has been formed in a rather realistic and dare I say pragmatic way and I run my life accordingly.

What's the problem? you ask? I think from the above postings of mine it's pretty darn obvious..

Never intended to waffle, offend or be discourteous to anyone, so sorry for that.



What do Orgers think, was he justified shooting the men?
I was just interested in the opinions of Orgers about the moral aspect and not the intricacies and quirks of US law. You know the sort of thing..Yes he was, blah blah OR No he wasn't, blah blah!!

It was not me who introduced the question "What's the problem?" It never helps to answer a question with a question.

Regarding the Iraq and Afghanistan waffle, I was merely alluding to the fact that the US, the most powerful country in the world wants to bring a civilised democratic society to these countries, when maybe they have some problems with their own values at home.

How come bringing Israel in to it isn't waffling??

So
What do Orgers think, was he justified shooting the men?

[bekisman]

Ok so I did not intend to obfuscate, but bearing in mind that I had pointed out that it was not unlawful; where's the problem? So to elucidate (for you) I am an Orger and I think he was justified in shooting the men..

Bit of an ego problem there is there not? I refer to your "about the moral aspect ...US law. " Presumably you have an insight into American 'morals'? you then continue with your references to Iraq & Afghanistan and again intimate that the US is uncivilised. Considering that apart from the British Forces in these countries are;
Albania, Armenia, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Estonia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Moldova, Mongolia, Poland, Romania, South Korea - so please do not tarnish us all with your imaginary brush.

I would presume that you were never a military man? - thought not, otherwise your off the cuff remarks would be a little more aimed..
The reason I bought Israel into it was to see if your 'moral crusade' included others outside of the evil USA..

Of course nothing to do with it, but I'll mention it anyway; my Son Tim is in Basra, trying to bring a 'civilised democratic society', but better be careful he's not contaminated by the immoral Yanks as he's in one of their camps.

[brokencross]

My ego is fine, thank you. However you seem to have a case of "puttingwordsinmymouthitis or readingwhatyouwanttoread disease".

"about the moral aspect ...US law. " Presumably you have an insight into American 'morals'? .
Nowhere have I questioned the morals of the US people. The moral question was about the specific situation as to whether it was wrong or right for one man to shoot two others in the back AFTER being told by police not to leave his house. (you conveniently ignore this police involvement fact in your responses.)

Didn't intimate anything about US being uncivilised, I said
when maybe they have some problems with their own values at home.



Considering that apart from the British Forces in these countries are;
Albania, Armenia, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Estonia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Moldova, Mongolia, Poland, Romania, South Korea - so please do not tarnish us all with your imaginary brush. I am not tarring anyone.


I do wish your son well and that he is home safe with you soon.


I am going to close this thread now as it is getting well away from the original question and a bit too personal for comfort.