View Full Version : Breastfeeding in public
I hope you might consider signing this on-line petition to the Prime Minister regarding breastfeeding in public.
We are fortunate in Scotland since Scottish law protects our right to breastfeed a child up to 2 years of age in any public place, however English law is only for babies up to 6 months, so the petition campaigns to increase this age limit.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/breastfedright/
Many thanks
For more information check out - www.caithnessbreastfriends.org.uk (http://www.caithnessbreastfriends.org.uk)
Signed sealed and delivered!
And I'm a bloke!!!
I have signed the petition and intend to mail all my friends to do the same.
Thanks to all for signing! I didn't realise there was an age limit for breastfeeding in public in Scotland, never thought about it before!
There's an interesting story in Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/article4182468.ece)
thats me just signed up, i am a mum with 3 kids(4th on the way and have always fed my children as and when required regardless of where we are at the time, will do so with my new baby when it arrives.
Signed. It does seem a bit odd that breast can be exposed in newspapers etc for all and sundry to see, but discreetly get one out to feed your child and shock horror. Don't get me started on the hypocrisy when the the government quiet rightly recommends breastfeeding until the child is a least one year old but just don't go out in public during that first year in case you have to feed him/her.
gardeninginagale
28-Jun-08, 19:43
Done it. Now sending link to friends and family.
It's a natural part of life which some people find unacceptable for what I don't know. All the best with the petition. Signed sealed and delivered.
I'm a guy who works in a nursery and fully support this. The problem is peoples attitudes that they feel embarrassed cause of their small minds :roll:
I've seen children fed in the nursery, at meetings and out in public and most of the time no-one even knows its happening.
I was surprised too that theres an age limit, how can something so natural be seen to be wrong.
gardeninginagale
28-Jun-08, 20:06
Actually, I feel moved to respond further. A good friend of mine breast-fed her son until he was three and a bit. But had to be so furtive about it. Thirty years ago, she was a pioneer, and had to hide in lavvies on a night out. So wrong.
Why is this an issue for government? It is about personal choice, and we should be free to choose how, when and where to breast-feed our children. It is a natural act. I am of the bottle-fed generation, when we went through a period of "Cow & Gate" is better, not because of science, but because of sad puritanism, and ferocious marketing.
Surely the world has moved on. In a free society, we should be free to do what we think is best.
But we can't, because this ridiculous nanny state makes rules we don't need, and don't want. And they only do it because they need power, and because they can.
And don't forget, we elected the useless b*stards.
Actually, I feel moved to respond further. A good friend of mine breast-fed her son until he was three and a bit. But had to be so furtive about it. Thirty years ago, she was a pioneer, and had to hide in lavvies on a night out. So wrong.
Why is this an issue for government? It is about personal choice, and we should be free to choose how, when and where to breast-feed our children. It is a natural act. I am of the bottle-fed generation, when we went through a period of "Cow & Gate" is better, not because of science, but because of sad puritanism, and ferocious marketing.
Surely the world has moved on. In a free society, we should be free to do what we think is best.
But we can't, because this ridiculous nanny state makes rules we don't need, and don't want. And they only do it because they need power, and because they can.
And don't forget, we elected the useless b*stards.Unfortunately they are the ones that make help make the law, not always for the good I'm afraid but I agree with you that breastfeeding is a natural act which should be supported, not to be made to be something seedy which you would have to have a pretty warped mind to find it so.
As a mother who was unable to breast feed. I don't have a problem with people breastfeeding, discreetly, wherever they like...........but tbh, I am inclined to think that as most two year olds are on solid food and can drink from a cup, breastfeeding in public is more for the ego of the mother and not as much for the needs of the child.
Not signed...and I await the umbrage!
teenybash
29-Jun-08, 00:09
Signed...........Mother Nature is always right.
I have to admit I didn't know there was an age limit, so that rules me out of offering to help any ladies.[lol]
However you have my support.
As a mother who was unable to breast feed. I don't have a problem with people breastfeeding, discreetly, wherever they like...........but tbh, I am inclined to think that as most two year olds are on solid food and can drink from a cup, breastfeeding in public is more for the ego of the mother and not as much for the needs of the child.
Not signed...and I await the umbrage!
Having incurred the wrath of some for stating my opinion last time this topic was raised I thought I would let someone else stick their head over the rampart first.
Won't be signing either - how about a "Ban public breastfeeding petition"?
Just so you don't feel lonely mind if I wait for the next umbrage with you?
highlander
29-Jun-08, 00:50
Breastfeeding should always be incouraged, but i remember a few weeks back reading that a mother was still breastfeeding her child and it was 5 years old, now i cant see how that is helping the child or the mother, there comes a time when u say, ok enough is enough, and once the teeth starts to come through, THATS ENOUGH lol
Having incurred the wrath of some for stating my opinion last time this topic was raised I thought I would let someone else stick their head over the rampart first.
Won't be signing either - how about a "Ban public breastfeeding petition"?
Just so you don't feel lonely mind if I wait for the next umbrage with you?
Whew, that's a relief.I'm not alone.
From where I'm sitting, breastfeeding is only important for the first six months, though alongside other foods after this time, it's an important and healthy part of the diet.
I'll allow that a child who is not fully weaned may be as old as a year, but beyond that, from my experience, it is more laziness on the part of the mother if they aren't regularly eating real food and drinking from a cup by that age
So it seems to me that that means that after that age you can choose the time and place to breastfeed.........and it doesn't have to be in public during the day, but could just as easily take place in private in the morning and evening.
I'm afraid I'd grue if I saw a two year old breastfeeding in public..........regardless of the law in Scotland...........and I must admit, I wasn't aware that two was the cut off time for Scotland. I can't envisage anything more embarrassing than breastfeeding a child older than an infant in public.
My kids had more than enough teeth to bite by two.
As a mother who was unable to breast feed. I don't have a problem with people breastfeeding, discreetly, wherever they like...........but tbh, I am inclined to think that as most two year olds are on solid food and can drink from a cup, breastfeeding in public is more for the ego of the mother and not as much for the needs of the child.
Not signed...and I await the umbrage!
In this day and age there is room for a support group for mothers like yourself who couldn't breastfeed, yet there would be no support from the health service to set one up. Increasingly by breastfeeding zealotism and through no fault of their own, bottle-feeders are made to feel guilty and ashamed at a time when they don't need it and it causes distress for all in the family.
Signed. It does seem a bit odd that breast can be exposed in newspapers etc for all and sundry to see, but discreetly get one out to feed your child and shock horror. Don't get me started on the hypocrisy when the the government quiet rightly recommends breastfeeding until the child is a least one year old but just don't go out in public during that first year in case you have to feed him/her.
Quite agree with you Tris. If a woman gets 'em out on a beach or in a park everyone is agog and she is in the papers the next day. Signed in and supportive.
brokencross
29-Jun-08, 09:04
Oddquine and Tristan mentioned the operative words.. ..breastfeeding discreetly.
I think many of the anti-breastfeeding in public lobby are not against the act per se, after all it is natural. What they object to is when the feeding implements are flaunted and everyone is expected to share the experience which should be a moment between mother and baby.
I am all for it, and will be signing up.
jock leith
29-Jun-08, 09:29
:) Keep up the good work,with equal rights for all
Kevin Milkins
29-Jun-08, 11:00
I think breast feeding is the most natural thing that a mother can give her child and when a child needs feeding ,you feed it, indoors or out.
However I will not be filling in the petition because I worry a little bit about putting my private details on the net.
The last time I did such a thing I ended up knee deep in junk mail.
Just as a matter of interest ,if a mother was feeding her child in public ,what is the chance of our boys in blue tapping her on the shoulder and saying "hello,hello,hello, what have we here then"?
It seems more people are worried about how embarrassing they feel at seeing a child being fed by breasts. It always surprises me that other women can be the worse for that too.:roll: It's not as if the mums that do this have a huge STOP, LOOK, I'M BREASTFEEDING RIGHT NOW sign on them. Most of the time it happens around you and you havent even noticed I bet, especially as clothes are designed better for the mums now.
It is noticed more the older the kids get and I do think some mums can let it go on too long at times. But thats for them to choose when to stop it or they could end up like Harvey from Little Britian crying "Bittyyyyyyyyy" in the middle of the High School play :confused
mums angels
29-Jun-08, 12:26
Not signed
as a mother of four ..one breastfed for 3 days gave up, one breast fed for 2 weeks then expressed 4 bottles aday until 8 weeks and the last two bottlefed from birth ,i am sick fed up with breast is best thrown at me at every turn I am a good mother that does her best for her children i have bonded with every single one with no help from breastfeeding an none of them have allergies or any other ailment that breastfeeding is supposed to prevent.
I see friends being pressured into trying to breastfeed when they don't really want to and it usually ends in tears ..by all means breastfeed in public if you can discreetly but i'd say between 6 and 9 months its no longer neccesary to feed in public and by the age 0f 2 a child shouldn't be asking for "bitty " IMO
jump down my throat if you will
It seems more people are worried about how embarrassing they feel at seeing a child being fed by breasts. It always surprises me that other women can be the worse for that too.:roll: It's not as if the mums that do this have a huge STOP, LOOK, I'M BREASTFEEDING RIGHT NOW sign on them. Most of the time it happens around you and you havent even noticed I bet, especially as clothes are designed better for the mums now.
Hard not to notice a toddler breastfeeding. :confused
Just picked up on a few things in this thread. Oddquine you say you don't have a problem with people breastfeeding discreetly wherever they like. NEWS FLASH breastfeeding is naturally discreet, I have fed my baby in public an no one was even aware that she was being fed.
And to be fair we all have opinions on how to raise our children and if someone so wishes to breastfeed their child until they are 2 then that really is their choice to make???
Oh and Madpict "How about a ban public breastfeeding petition" To that i say get a grip does that mean we get a ban bottle feeding in public petition going no i don't think so. Why is it such a big deal to do what mother nature intended???? Not that i am anti bottle feeding, i believe it is very much a personal choice.
I fully intend to sign the petition as I do very strongly support breastfeeding and can understand people doing it in public up to about a year, after that I admit I would probably personally try to not do it in public places but hey thats me and each to their own. Breastmilk is good for babies.
However, as a mother that was unable to breastfeed my son (now 5 months) because he simply could not learn I will admit that I sometimes feel that the support for breastfeeding mothers can be overdone. I have no knowledge of supportgroups for mothers that for example intended to breastfeed but for various reasons could not do it, and trust me I would have loved a support group like that in the beginning.
so yay for breastfeeding but please don't villify bottlefeeding mothers either, for some there is no choice and that is a hard fact to accept.
I better stop now before this turns into a proper rant :) All I intended to say was that I will sign it as I do support the right to breastfeed.
Whew, that's a relief.I'm not alone.
From where I'm sitting, breastfeeding is only important for the first six months, though alongside other foods after this time, it's an important and healthy part of the diet.
I'll allow that a child who is not fully weaned may be as old as a year, but beyond that, from my experience, it is more laziness on the part of the mother if they aren't regularly eating real food and drinking from a cup by that age
So it seems to me that that means that after that age you can choose the time and place to breastfeed.........and it doesn't have to be in public during the day, but could just as easily take place in private in the morning and evening.
I'm afraid I'd grue if I saw a two year old breastfeeding in public..........regardless of the law in Scotland...........and I must admit, I wasn't aware that two was the cut off time for Scotland. I can't envisage anything more embarrassing than breastfeeding a child older than an infant in public.
My kids had more than enough teeth to bite by two.
I think I agree with you. A child over a certain age shouldn't NEED to feed in public. However I think it is the parent's choice - not the government. I wasn't aware there was an age limit, but 6 months does seem a little young. I have signed.
mums angels
29-Jun-08, 12:46
[quote=sjr014;401895]Just picked up on a few things in this thread. Oddquine you say you don't have a problem with people breastfeeding discreetly wherever they like. NEWS FLASH breastfeeding is naturally discreet, I have fed my baby in public an no one was even aware that she was being fed.
Well for some it is but i have seen mothers who pull out the boob way before the baby is in position to feed and also i've seen mothers stop to wind the baby without putting the boob away ...that is not discreet
[quote=Uli;401896]I fully intend to sign the petition as I do very strongly support breastfeeding and can understand people doing it in public up to about a year, after that I admit I would probably personally try to not do it in public places but hey thats me and each to their own. Breastmilk is good for babies.
i also support breastfeeding as i believe that its personal choice however i'm not signing the petition as i don't see the need to raise the age limit , if it was to 9 months say maybe i would but its not so i wont be signing .
i do agree with you that it would be nice to have a bottlefeeding mothers support group as i think we get alot of negative things said about it and with my first i felt awful that i couldn't do it and thats why i have bottlefed my last two from birth as i wouldn't want to feel that way again .
Hard not to notice a toddler breastfeeding. :confused
If you hadn't cut out the rest of what I said I did say that it is noticed more the older the kid gets or don't you read all the comments ? :roll:
I did.......but didn't want to get into the parental choice of when to stop part, because that would only get me more umbrage.
But what the heck..........
I'd likely have signed the petition if they had made the cut-off 12 months and am astounded to find that Scotland has already implemented a 24 month one.....completely OTT.
Imo, any parent who breast feeds a toddler in public is not doing it for the benefit of the toddler but as a PC statement.........after all, by a year old most children can eat solid food and use a cup..............so why the need to breast feed outside the privacy of your own home when they can be nourished quite adequately without it for that period?
Oh and Madpict "How about a ban public breastfeeding petition" To that i say get a grip does that mean we get a ban bottle feeding in public petition going no i don't think so. Why is it such a big deal to do what mother nature intended???? Not that i am anti bottle feeding, i believe it is very much a personal choice.
I was joking.
I don't really have a problem with the mothers who feed their babies in public using a bit of decorum. I fully accept it is a natural act and if a mother wishes to do it fine.
I have a 'problem' with the small band who seem to think it is right and proper to make a big thing of the whole process. I think I have said before that simply being modest is all it takes. The argument that you see topless images all over the place is flawed. If a female walked into a public place and took off her top/bra she would be removed for public indecency. 'Adult' magazines are on the top shelf usually in a wrapping these days. Page 3 models are on page 3 - you have to open the papers to view them.
I am sure many breastfeeding mothers DO use a bit of modesty - but you get 'extremists' who feel it is the way to make their point!
percy toboggan
29-Jun-08, 16:45
I will not sign your petition although I'm not against it in principle.
This is yet another tiresome challenge to convention, and the status quo.
Attitudes have been changing slowly, but quickly enough.
Discretion is the key word here. I'm not in favour of Earth mother types bearing their breasts here there and everywhere for the benefit of their infant and their ego, which is sometimes fortified by a strident desire to impose their own standards, causes and crusades on the wider society.
It's no big deal otherwise. A fact of life. Those indignantly agin it are one bag short of a full load. Those who champion it and seek to make it the norm, anywhere and everywhere are almost equally barking. Use your loaves, and your breasts....but do not make it a political cause when there are other, more important issues facing society.
Margaret M.
29-Jun-08, 17:10
I'm with Oddquine's and Madpict's last posts. I'm very much a live and let live type and I think a wee baby breastfeeding is a lovely sight. But seeing a toddler lift mother's shirt to breastfeed or ask for a bitty gives me the heebie jeebies. Mothers can continue to breastfeed until their child is 16 if they so desire -- I just don't want to see it.
My children were born when bottle feeding was encouraged. We bonded and they're very healthy -- I cannot think of anything that may have been better were they breast fed.
I remember exactly what I was doing when I learned I was breast fed. I was having an argument with a sibling and it was blurted out to stop me in my tracks. It did. It was the same kinda feeling that you get when you think of your parents having sex. :)
Not signed
as a mother of four ..one breastfed for 3 days gave up, one breast fed for 2 weeks then expressed 4 bottles aday until 8 weeks and the last two bottlefed from birth ,i am sick fed up with breast is best thrown at me at every turn I am a good mother that does her best for her children i have bonded with every single one with no help from breastfeeding an none of them have allergies or any other ailment that breastfeeding is supposed to prevent.
I see friends being pressured into trying to breastfeed when they don't really want to and it usually ends in tears ..by all means breastfeed in public if you can discreetly but i'd say between 6 and 9 months its no longer neccesary to feed in public and by the age 0f 2 a child shouldn't be asking for "bitty " IMO
jump down my throat if you will
TOTALLY agree with u...not a mum myself...but i think u have got it right.
Valerie Campbell
30-Jun-08, 11:46
When I was training as a nursery nurse, it was drummed into us that 'breast was best.' We were supposed to go out into the workplace and tell mothers-to-be how bad there were if they didn't breast feed. It's personal choice. Granted, mother's milk is better for the baby, but not everyone can do it and not everyone may want to. I didn't. It was my personal choice, nothing more, nothing less. As for breastfeeding in public, it's the most natural thing in the world. It has never bothered me or my family in the slightest. However I was interested there was an age limit. We were never made aware of that. Still, I can't imagine too many mothers feeding their 2 year old in public. The optimum time to give up is around 12-18 months, if you've survived the teeth!!!
Just as a matter of interest ,if a mother was feeding her child in public ,what is the chance of our boys in blue tapping her on the shoulder and saying "hello,hello,hello, what have we here then"?
Hmmm... this has been an interesting thread!
Just two points to note - one historic and the other just a point of fact:
The "right to breastfeed in public" was introduced in Scotland as a result of direct lobbying by families living in the Central belt - including my own. At that time, mothers who breastfed in public had no protection and yes, Kevin, they really do need protection to be able to do that thing. The incident which sparked this legislation happened when a mother of a young baby was unceremoniously thrown off a bus in Edinburgh by the driver after a complaint from another passenger about her breastfeeding. The baby in question was still being exclusively breastfed and yet the driver was legally entitled to dump the mother, baby and pushchair in the street because of a "no food and drink" policy on Lothian buses. This he chose to do.
It is now widely accepted by all medical professionals that babies should be exclusively breastfed for at least the first six months (that's no water, no formula and no solids) and the World Health Organisation recommends breastfeeding for "up two years and beyond". So if we really want what's best for future generations we should be supporting mothers who chose to do what's best for their child. Full stop.
I wonder why the English legislation did not follow the Scottish law? Six months is far too early to expect a healthy breastfed baby to be fully weaned. Oh well, perhaps they'll get there in the end. Fingers crossed. :roll:
Well done to all who choose to support this petition - a positive attitude regarding child health issues will guarantee our world a positive future. :D
i too believe in breastfeeding babies, maybe not n public as i see it as a private affair, each to their own, except feeding toddlers is way of the mark with breastfeeding in public...But like i say thats me not anyone else.
Hmmm... this has been an interesting thread!
Just two points to note - one historic and the other just a point of fact:
The "right to breastfeed in public" was introduced in Scotland as a result of direct lobbying by families living in the Central belt - including my own. At that time, mothers who breastfed in public had no protection and yes, Kevin, they really do need protection to be able to do that thing. The incident which sparked this legislation happened when a mother of a young baby was unceremoniously thrown off a bus in Edinburgh by the driver after a complaint from another passenger about her breastfeeding. The baby in question was still being exclusively breastfed and yet the driver was legally entitled to dump the mother, baby and pushchair in the street because of a "no food and drink" policy on Lothian buses. This he chose to do.
It is now widely accepted by all medical professionals that babies should be exclusively breastfed for at least the first six months (that's no water, no formula and no solids) and the World Health Organisation recommends breastfeeding for "up two years and beyond". So if we really want what's best for future generations we should be supporting mothers who chose to do what's best for their child. Full stop.
I wonder why the English legislation did not follow the Scottish law? Six months is far too early to expect a healthy breastfed baby to be fully weaned. Oh well, perhaps they'll get there in the end. Fingers crossed. :roll:
Well done to all who choose to support this petition - a positive attitude regarding child health issues will guarantee our world a positive future. :D
Maybe the English legislation didn't follow the Scottish legislation because they thought that 24 months was ridiculous.............though I agree it should be longer than 6 months...maybe 9-12.
I don't think anyone on here has a problem with breastfeeding in public per se........just that a 24 month cut off point removes the possibility of discretion.
I did.......but didn't want to get into the parental choice of when to stop part, because that would only get me more umbrage.
But what the heck..........
I'd likely have signed the petition if they had made the cut-off 12 months and am astounded to find that Scotland has already implemented a 24 month one.....completely OTT.
Imo, any parent who breast feeds a toddler in public is not doing it for the benefit of the toddler but as a PC statement.........after all, by a year old most children can eat solid food and use a cup..............so why the need to breast feed outside the privacy of your own home when they can be nourished quite adequately without it for that period?Why does a natural act disturb you so much? You say there is no need to breastfeed a child after six months, fair enough point but why does it disturb you so muchwhen people continue after that age-group?
oldmarine
01-Jul-08, 02:07
Good gravy. What will come next on this forum? My family, including my wife, has always breast-fed their babies. However, they tried to be descrete about it in public by throwing a towel over their shoulder while breast feeding their babies. I did have one aunt who would squirt milk into the face of a curious bystander. That would effectively back off the guilty person. I vote in favor of breast feeding baby even if it is in public. After all, baby does get hungry even in public.
oldmarine
01-Jul-08, 02:08
Have I missed anything here?
Whew, that's a relief.I'm not alone.
From where I'm sitting, breastfeeding is only important for the first six months, though alongside other foods after this time, it's an important and healthy part of the diet.
I'll allow that a child who is not fully weaned may be as old as a year, but beyond that, from my experience, it is more laziness on the part of the mother if they aren't regularly eating real food and drinking from a cup by that age
So it seems to me that that means that after that age you can choose the time and place to breastfeed.........and it doesn't have to be in public during the day, but could just as easily take place in private in the morning and evening.
I'm afraid I'd grue if I saw a two year old breastfeeding in public..........regardless of the law in Scotland...........and I must admit, I wasn't aware that two was the cut off time for Scotland. I can't envisage anything more embarrassing than breastfeeding a child older than an infant in public.
My kids had more than enough teeth to bite by two.
Wowee - I breastfed both my children 'til the age of one - the stage at which they could go on to cows milk. How dare you suggest that it is "laziness" for a mother to offer her child the most suitable milk for it. Why on earth would I have provided formula in a cup when I produced something better myself? Granted by the age of one all that was required was a before bedtime feed and so the need to feed in public had disappeared. Two could be used as the cut off age as I believe (I am sure someone will tell me if I am wrong) that was the age limit set by WHO as the optimal age to breastfeed a child until. I have to admit I do find it strange for anyone to breastfeed over this age as the child is looking for comfort rather than sustinance and this should be provided some other way. I would also like to add that my son did bite me but just the once. He was just doing what any teething child would do I suppose.
Guess what - I am signing!
As a postscript to my previous comments - I would like to add that I do not have a problem with any mother bottle feeding her child. I believe that breast is best but accept that there will be women who, for whatever reason, decide not to breastfeed. I did find that there was very little support for women who did wish to breastfeed and won through on my own determination to feed my child myself as intended by nature. I must also say that I was thrilled to be able to look at my children in the early stages when all they received was my milk and think I am completely responsible for their growth and well being. I would never and have never shoved my beliefs down anyone's throat but would wholeheartedly support and give the benefit of my experience to any breastfeeding mother. This thread was about the right to breastfeed in public and for heaven's sake are there not much worse things to be seen in public and there are not petitions about them! :roll:
Why does a natural act disturb you so much? You say there is no need to breastfeed a child after six months, fair enough point but why does it disturb you so much when people continue after that age-group?
Doesn't disturb me.............but as I have already said, by the time babies get to the toddler stage they are not being fed exclusively, or even mostly with breast milk, so any public breastfeeding is more for the mother to make a point than the good of the child. :roll:
Wowee - I breastfed both my children 'til the age of one - the stage at which they could go on to cows milk. How dare you suggest that it is "laziness" for a mother to offer her child the most suitable milk for it. Why on earth would I have provided formula in a cup when I produced something better myself? Granted by the age of one all that was required was a before bedtime feed and so the need to feed in public had disappeared. Two could be used as the cut off age as I believe (I am sure someone will tell me if I am wrong) that was the age limit set by WHO as the optimal age to breastfeed a child until. I have to admit I do find it strange for anyone to breastfeed over this age as the child is looking for comfort rather than sustinance and this should be provided some other way. I would also like to add that my son did bite me but just the once. He was just doing what any teething child would do I suppose.
Guess what - I am signing!
Good for you, wifie.
But you picked me up wrong............I meant that it was laziness on the part of the mother if they are not eating off a spoon and drinking from a cup by the toddler stage so that it is necessary to breast feed a toddler in public.
Sorry I didn't make myself clear.
LOL we are cool then Oddquine! You are a rare thing on the org - you come back and explain yerself without a slanging match - I thank you! ;)
Lolabelle
01-Jul-08, 12:07
Breast feeding is such a great thing, and for those who choose to I'm sure it is the optimum choice. After all, it is the milk the body is designed to supply for our babies.
I have seen people flop out a boob and then sort out the baby, I hope I don't offend anyone, but to me that just looks like exhibitionism to me.
As for the age for breastfeeding to finish, I'm sure it depends on the child and mothers needs, but at an age where the child is walking, talking and has teeth, well it does look a bit odd. Again, no offence intended, but this is my opinion, that's all.
Now as for the government having any say in any of it, that is appalling! What they heck do they have to do with what and when you choose to feed your child, as long as the child is healthy and looked after, the government should have no say in it at all, in public or private!!!!! [evil]
I am now off to google and see if Australia has any similar rulings, and I didn't sign as I am not in the UK and don't figure it would really count for much, but I would have if I did live in the UK.
sassylass
01-Jul-08, 17:10
I can see both sides of this discussion. In my opinion, breastfeeding in public is fine as long as mother is discreet and the child is too young to drink from a cup or eat from a spoon. There are some mothers who want to make a statement by breastfeeding. It seems for them it's all about control, of their child and of their rights. Fortunately, these "in your face" types are few and far between.
Just to pick up on a comment that Wifie made. When she was breastfeeding she said there was no support, just to let breastfeeding mums or pregnant ladies know that there is a breastfeeding support group in the Henderson Wing every Wednesday at 12midday. It is just Mums helping other Mums and the Midwife is also around to offer advice and support!
Good for you, wifie.
But you picked me up wrong............I meant that it was laziness on the part of the mother if they are not eating off a spoon and drinking from a cup by the toddler stage so that it is necessary to breast feed a toddler in public.
Sorry I didn't make myself clear.
Very occasionally, for example after a road traffic accident, breastfeeding can be the thing that saves a toddler's life. It can soothe both mother and injured toddler and is absolutely the most natural first aid there is in the world. In this situation a toddler who only usually breast-feeds at bedtime in the privacy of his own home will readily accept this gift from the Gods and it might just keep him quiet, still and relaxed enough to survive until the ambulance arrives... but only if he's lucky enough to have a mother who's kept this tool as a possibility in her first aid kit and she is allowed to do it.
Not a scenario that any of us want to imagine, but this mother's right to breastfeed in this public situation must be protected. The last thing she needs as she is saving her child's life is some by-stander telling her they find it offensive to catch an eyeful of her breasts!
If you don't like watching a baby being breastfed, look the other way.:roll:
I do it all the time when I see young babies eating Cheesy Wotsits and drinking diet coke - and that's a long way from saving a life!:eek:
Doesn't disturb me.............but as I have already said, by the time babies get to the toddler stage they are not being fed exclusively, or even mostly with breast milk, so any public breastfeeding is more for the mother to make a point than the good of the child. :roll:So you reckon every mother that wishes to feed their child after six months are trying to make a point. What point exactly apart from Breastfeeding being natural?
Wow! LOL. I am with WIFIE on this one. I too breastfed both my children until 1 year old and am finishing breastfeeding this friday :( They all grow up soon or later. What is the big deal. If someone wants to breastfeed so be it, or if someone wants to bottle feed so be it. Im sorry but I have fed my children in all manner of places and have no 2nd thoughts if I should or not. My baby cries for milk I will supply it as was designed but obviously discreetly as I live in the western world.
If someone wishes to feed their child until 2 years (stated by the WHO organisation ) that is their choice and I know of people who choose to do this and completely respect their decision.
I have signed the petition and god help anyone who would have even thought of stopping me breastfeeding in public
So you reckon every mother that wishes to feed their child after six months are trying to make a point. What point exactly apart from Breastfeeding being natural?
And where did I say that, TBH?
I know of no toddlers of six months old who are eating off a spoon and drinking from a cup to the extent that they don't still need supplementary breast/bottle feeding............do you?
I don't have a problem with parents breast feeding their children until they marry as long as it isn't in public after around 12 months.
tootler, I don't have any problems with babies being breastfed whatsoever.
I do have a problem with mothers breast feeding toddlers because they can, not because they need to.
In the scenario you present as justification for allowing public breastfeeding up to the age of two, I, for one in those circumstances wouldn't have a problem with that child being breastfed for comfort..............but I'd hope that the mother had enough medical knowledge to be sure that it was the appropriate thing to do re any possible further treatment of the child.
I'd hazard a guess that nobody would object in those circumstances, and if they did they would get little sympathy................but it should be an exception rather than a rule.
I have to say I'm not at all impressed with a WHO report which hedges its pronouncements with the starting comment that " Most of these studies have not specifically examined the effect of breastfeeding beyond 12
months on these outcomes."
I repeat, there is absolutely no necessity for mothers to breast feed in public children who are eating from a spoon and drinking from a cup.
And where did I say that, TBH?
I know of no toddlers of six months old who are eating off a spoon and drinking from a cup to the extent that they don't still need supplementary breast/bottle feeding............do you?
I don't have a problem with parents breast feeding their children until they marry as long as it isn't in public after around 12 months.
tootler, I don't have any problems with babies being breastfed whatsoever.
I do have a problem with mothers breast feeding toddlers because they can, not because they need to.
In the scenario you present as justification for allowing public breastfeeding up to the age of two, I, for one in those circumstances wouldn't have a problem with that child being breastfed for comfort..............but I'd hope that the mother had enough medical knowledge to be sure that it was the appropriate thing to do re any possible further treatment of the child.
I'd hazard a guess that nobody would object in those circumstances, and if they did they would get little sympathy................but it should be an exception rather than a rule.
I have to say I'm not at all impressed with a WHO report which hedges its pronouncements with the starting comment that " Most of these studies have not specifically examined the effect of breastfeeding beyond 12
months on these outcomes."
I repeat, there is absolutely no necessity for mothers to breast feed in public children who are eating from a spoon and drinking from a cup.We are after all animals Oddquine yet you seem to find breastfeeding after six months repuslive or part of a pc agenda You really do need to re-examine your life to see what has twisted your views so much.
I forgot that I don't live in the real world compared to you that has all the answers OddQuine.
Lolabelle
02-Jul-08, 07:48
We are after all animals .
Animals stop thier babies feeding usually before 12 months, I have seen cattle, horses and even the odd pup try to sneak back in to get a suck when the next calf, foal and puppy is having a drink. I have also seen the said cow, mare and bitch give the older offspring the heave ho for even trying. So really, we don't behave like animals, animals have boundaries that maybe we should at times.
This comment has nothing to do with people breast feeding their children in public BTW! :Razz
Just to pick up on a comment that Wifie made. When she was breastfeeding she said there was no support, just to let breastfeeding mums or pregnant ladies know that there is a breastfeeding support group in the Henderson Wing every Wednesday at 12midday. It is just Mums helping other Mums and the Midwife is also around to offer advice and support!
So glad to hear this! I did not have my children in Caithness. Now I don't want anyone to get me wrong here as I thought that all the midwives I came across were fantastic. I did feel though that when it came to breastfeeding the support from hospital staff was just not there - they did not know how to help me. It was 10 years ago granted and I hope things have changed. It is just another sad example in this world of someone deciding somewhere that something will be promoted and as usual the people on the front line are the ones who get the flack. However a mother decides to feed her child is her choice but I urge any woman who is not sure to ask someone with experience - it counts for a heck of a lot you know!
We are after all animals Oddquine yet you seem to find breastfeeding after six months repuslive or part of a pc agenda You really do need to re-examine your life to see what has twisted your views so much.
And which part of "around 12 months" do you not understand, TBH?
I simply do not see that breastfeeding a toddler in public is any more socially acceptable than peeing in the street,....neither are discreet in any way........and I was horrified to read that in Scotland there is actually a movement to remove the 24 month time limit!
SunnyChick
02-Jul-08, 12:02
I've signed the petition too.
I feel like clapping everytime I see a mother feeding her baby, because it does take commitment and determination to be able to see breast feeding through the those tough first few weeks.
I breast fed both of mine for a year. It was so difficult in the beginning, but with my being Athsmatic I felt like it was important to struggle through. In the end it paid off, because after the first 3 months it became much easier, and it's so portable!
I did a couple of 9 hour flights when my eldest was just 9 months old, and I didn't have to worry about sterilising bottles or her screaming down the plane. Take off and landing were fine, as I just gave her the breast if she got upset. It couldn't have been easier, and everyone on the plane benefitted!
No-one ever asked me to stop, and I think that almost everyone who saw me feeding, were quite supportive and encouraging.
I think the worldwide average time for breast feeding a child is about 4 years of age...... but I stopped feeding when my children started biting!:D
I've signed the petition and posted the link on another site.
With all the horrendous things going on in the world these days I'm amazed that people can get so bent out of shape about children being fed...
tootler, I don't have any problems with babies being breastfed whatsoever.
Just get on and sign the petition, then, Oddquine! It is for the benefit of babies and mothers. I think we are all in agreement that the nursing couple certainly do need their right to breastfeed in public protected up to at least baby's first birthday and at the moment, in England, they don't have that protection.
The need to breastfeed a baby between 1 & 2 years of age in public is unusual, but occasionally does arise - the long-haul flight mentioned is a prime example - so why not protect that child's right to do what's best as well?
Really, really, if you don't like what you see, just look the other way.
In the so-called "developing world" it's common to see children up to 4 years and beyond breastfeeding in public. It's only natural and children do all wean a very long time before they get married! (No society has to tolerate a breastfeeding teenage-baby because, as we all know, teenagers develop new priorities - that's also natural!)
Our society may be "developed" in many ways but we're also in the process of developing extremely poor-health habits that are destroying our quality of life both as individuals and as a society. Early weaning is one those.:roll:
Sun Circle
02-Jul-08, 16:47
I simply do not see that breastfeeding a toddler in public is any more socially acceptable than peeing in the street,....neither are discreet in any way........and I was horrified to read that in Scotland there is actually a movement to remove the 24 month time limit!
Hello Oddquine and all you other orgers!
I've been following this thread with interest as a lurker, but Oddquine's comment comparing breastfeeding in public to peeing in public has forced me to register and give my tuppenceworth. How ridiculous to liken an act which leaves behind dirty bacteria, germs and a stinking smell to the act of lovingly comforting a child in need.
<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>Its very sad that you were unable to breastfeed, Oddquine. I agree that more should be done to support the 2% women who are medically unable to breastfeed. If you want to talk through your experiences and work out what went wrong for you, I know that the Association of Breastfeeding Mothers' breastfeeding counsellors are happy to listen and help you work through the emotions which come with the loss of a breastfeeding relationship, no matter how early that was. Their number is
Sun Circle
02-Jul-08, 16:53
Sorry to keep you in suspense... Their number is 0844 20 909 20! Alternatively your GP will be able to refer you to a counsellor if you feel that talking through your experience will help you deal with your difficult emotions. You are angry, and I'm not surprised. I would be too if I felt cheated out of breastfeeding my child for reasons beyond my control.
There should also be more support for the 98% of women who are physically able to breastfeed but struggle with problems that could be fixed with the right information, help and emotional support. All the numbers you need are on www.caithnessbreastfriends.org.uk (http://www.caithnessbreastfriends.org.uk/) which Julia pointed out.
Some women choose to feed their babies formula from birth and want nothing to do with breastfeeding. As long as that is an informed choice I have absolutely no problem with it. Its just the same as some people choose to smoke, knowing that its bad for their health. Free choice is an essential part of any civilized society.
I do get infuriated my mis-information from the formula companies though. If mums are formula feeding based on the marketing without realising the facts then that is disturbing. That latest advert with the giggling toddlers for Cow and Gate is a prime example. The small print (which you can hardly read) states that "this product is not a substitute for breast milk". They are allowed to say this because its a follow-on milk for babies over 6 months old. But they are WRONG. It certainly IS a substitute for breastmilk and a poor substitute at that! Breastmilk gives all the advantages of protection from viruses, germs, tummy bugs, ear infections and lots lots more that Cow and Gate will never be able to replicate. So why buy Cow and Gate for your toddler when nature provides it free and better? Maybe I'm just too lazy to wash cups and sterilize bottles.
As for toddler feeding - I can't really remember the last time I fed my boy in public... I think it was when he was about 18 months old and he fell head first off the Thomas the Tank Engine in the Co-op. Without a second thought the feelings of passers-by, I picked up my screaming child, sat down on the bench and did what mothers have done for millenia... there is no word to describe the level of security and comfort that the breast offers a frightened toddler - its the nearest thing they'll get to being back in the womb and makes them feel safe and loved. A cuddle just doesn't cut the mustard in comparison. Milky buttons are a close second, but aren’t so good for the teeth and don’t offer much immunological protection!
Rant over,
Sun Circle
Hello Oddquine and all you other orgers!
I've been following this thread with interest as a lurker, but Oddquine's comment comparing breastfeeding in public to peeing in public has forced me to register and give my tuppenceworth. How ridiculous to liken an act which leaves behind dirty bacteria, germs and a stinking smell to the act of lovingly comforting a child in need.
Hello, Sun Circle...and welcome.
Well, according to some, we are animals and breastfeeding after 12 months in public is natural.....as is peeing where you want etc.
I was not comparing it as to smell etc, but as to social acceptability..perhaps I'd have been better to say having sex in public, rather than peeing, then.
Its very sad that you were unable to breastfeed, Oddquine. I agree that more should be done to support the 2% women who are medically unable to breastfeed. If you want to talk through your experiences and work out what went wrong for you, I know that the Association of Breastfeeding Mothers' breastfeeding counsellors are happy to listen and help you work through the emotions which come with the loss of a breastfeeding relationship, no matter how early that was. Their number is 0844 20 909 20! Alternatively your GP will be able to refer you to a counsellor if you feel that talking through your experience will help you deal with your difficult emotions. You are angry, and I'm not surprised. I would be too if I felt cheated out of breastfeeding my child for reasons beyond my control.
Sorry that I seem to have given the impression that I would have breastfed if I could. I think I probably wouldn't have, though being unable to do so did stop the rather fewer "holier than thou's" getting on at me........even 40 years ago.
I was simply saying that I had bottle fed, had no problem with public breastfeeding of babies, and saw no necessity to be publicly breast feeding toddlers.
I certainly never bottle fed my children in public after they were eating from a spoon and drinking from a cup.
The instances given here where it is appropriate/necessary to breast feed toddlers would seem to me to be adequately answered with a dummy (and, no, I don't like them, either) and a cuddle.
I made do with giving them a cuddle...and that worked perfectly well. :roll:
Signed and have my SUPPORT.:lol:
OMG I can't believe the last post????? How could anyone compare breastfeeding a toddler in public to peeing or having sex in public??? There are some very strange people in this world with some bizzare views and oddquine has just proved to be one of them with a statement like that. Absolutely ludicrous i personally think you have serious issues maybe you should consider seeing your GP?
Men walk around showing off their moobs and it's fine and dandy. Girls go out on saturdays dressed to the nines: 9 inches of skirt and nine inches of top, and that is all fine and dandy, but dare a woman breast feed a child in a public place then she is compared to perverts. hmmmmmm...... this must make sense but I don't get it.
It is a very personal choice and no one should be criminalised for making that choice. If you do not like it as the observer, look the other way. Just like I do when a beer bellied mooby man in a net string T-shirt and shorts with high white socks and sandals comes my way. He may look extrememly offensive to my esthetic sensibilities, but hey..... it's his choice.
Sun Circle
02-Jul-08, 19:56
Sorry that I seem to have given the impression that I would have breastfed if I could. I think I probably wouldn't have, though being unable to do so did stop the rather fewer "holier than thou's" getting on at me........even 40 years ago.
Thanks for the warm welcome, Oddquine. And sorry for the misunderstanding. By promoting the health benefits of breastfeeding I hope I'm not being "holier than thou"... personally I think that spending money on formula, spending all that time heating bottles and sterilising and then having to remember to take everything with you whenever you go out sounds like a whole lot too much work for me. Breastfeeding was, for me, the lazy way out - any time, any place, anywhere... its the right temperature, its the perfect mixture, and more importantly you can't forget to take it with you! Not everyone takes to it easily, but once you are over the hurdle of the first few weeks breastfeeding is the easy option, and the health benefits are just a side benefit.
The instances given here where it is appropriate/necessary to breast feed toddlers would seem to me to be adequately answered with a dummy (and, no, I don't like them, either) and a cuddle.
Babies need to suck - its an important part of their development, and that sucking need lasts up until they are at least two and often longer. Why use a plastic dummy to pacify when the original and the best is readily available?
Sun Circle
OMG I can't believe the last post????? How could anyone compare breastfeeding a toddler in public to peeing or having sex in public??? There are some very strange people in this world with some bizzare views and oddquine has just proved to be one of them with a statement like that. Absolutely ludicrous i personally think you have serious issues maybe you should consider seeing your GP?
If we are going to have "we are animals" as the justification for breastfeeding toddlers in public, then logically, it is a justification for any other kind of animal behaviour.......although I can't offhand think of any but an elephant which suckles its young for more than 12 months.
I repeat...........I have no problem with babies up to 12 months being publicly breastfed.....and if that had been the cut off time, I'd have signed the petition. However, I can see absolutely no reason for publicly breast feeding toddlers who can eat off a spoon and drink from a cup..........do you?
Babies need to suck - its an important part of their development, and that sucking need lasts up until they are at least two and often longer. Why use a plastic dummy to pacify when the original and the best is readily available?
Sun Circle
My son used to suck his thumb.........but never on the street after he started walking....there was too much going on to interest him.
If we are going to have "we are animals" as the justification for breastfeeding toddlers in public, then logically, it is a justification for any other kind of animal behaviour.......although I can't offhand think of any but an elephant which suckles its young for more than 12 months.
I can think of a mamal that suckles their young for 4/5 years: human being. The fact that we have big head as adults and are born the same way as small headed mamals ( note: size of head is relative to respective body size, so even if an elefant has a bigger head that us, so is it's body) means that we are born at a comparitively more helpless stage that most mamals ( note: I did say most mamals....there are notable exceptions such as panda's and, especially, kangaroo's who dare to "carry on being pregnant" after giving birth....there should probably be law against that too!!!!). The human baby takes alot longer to mature to self sufficiency when compared to other mamals. The human mother as a scavanger could also only take care of so many small children. The lactation would have a contraceptive effect that was also important in evolutionary terms.
But then I don't want to get into a slanging match. I would just like people to recognize that just as mothers are entitled not to be criticised when they do not breast feed, they ALSO should not be criminalised for choosing to do so. And please stop comparing breast feeding with animal behaviours such as urination, defecation or sexual intercourse in public places. It is insulting to many mothers.
Sun Circle
02-Jul-08, 21:39
I repeat...........I have no problem with babies up to 12 months being publicly breastfed.....and if that had been the cut off time, I'd have signed the petition. However, I can see absolutely no reason for publicly breast feeding toddlers who can eat off a spoon and drink from a cup..........do you?
You are right, OddQuine, by the age of two your average breastfeeding toddler will rarely be seen feeding in public, if ever.
The point is that its NOBODY's BUSINESS and the law should not be used to stop mothers feeding their children whatever they like, whenever they like, as they see fit.
Every baby is different, every mum has different opinions, and every mum is doing what they think is best for their baby. Some mums think its best to encourage independence at an early age by weaning onto solids and cups. Other mums think that by allowing the baby to wean from the breast in their own time (and normally this will be between 2 and 4 years of age), their child will be more likely to foster a deep-seated security and self-assurance that will last a lifetime.
I have always believed that if mums follow their hearts they will never go far wrong, whatever decisions they make.
There have been a lot of dates bandied about on this thread, everyone agrees that 6 months is too young, others said 6 to 9 months, many people think the magical "year" is the one... Scottish law took 2 years from the UNICEF guidelines...
We need to protect the rights of the very young infant and that is what the 6 month legislation tried to do. But in doing so it made a mockery of itself since babies don't stop needing milk at 6 months and 1 day. Whatever cut-off you choose, there will always be that issue.
Is it acceptable to feed a one-year old in a restaurant and then the next week it is suddenly an obscene public offence because they are a week older?
Babies can't read calendars or clocks and they just follow their instincts and their hearts.
The point of the petition is to allow mothers the freedom to act as they chose without being made to feel wrong or dirty.
Sun Circle
I apologise for comparing the social acceptability of publicly breastfeeding toddlers with other natural animal behaviours.
But if you had been told "We are after all animals Oddquine yet you seem to find breastfeeding after six months repuslive or part of a pc agenda You really do need to re-examine your life to see what has twisted your views so much." and then " i personally think you have serious issues maybe you should consider seeing your GP?" ......just because I think toddlers who can eat off a spoon and drink from a cup should be able to go a few hours without breastfeeding how would you have reacted?
The breastfeeding mafia don't appear to accept that other people are entitled to their opinions.
Babies can't read calendars or clocks and they just follow their instincts and their hearts.
The point of the petition is to allow mothers the freedom to act as they chose without being made to feel wrong or dirty.
Sun Circle
Welcome to the org, Sun Circle!
Many home truths indeed, and I have sent you many sunny rep points in return for making your points so eloquently. I can't help feeling we're kindred spirits!;)
Glad to know that others like yourself have taken up the torch to continue to protect the rights of breastfeeding families... I can go and put my feet up now that our own babies are grown up, safe in the knowledge that at least some, maybe even most, of the next generation are understanding what's right for babies and what's not.
I particularly liked your comparison of Cow and Gate to smoking - not many mothers realise how true that is. It's a secret well kept by the smiling, gurgling, giggling formula milk producers - they're laughing all the way to the bank! If parents knew the real truth they'd never make a reasoned choice to use formula just for convenience - I confess I am glad it's there as an option for the 2% of babies who'd die without, but for most parents, surely they'd be more committed to breastfeeding if they knew what formula milk actually does to tiny babies' insides? The words "internal bleeding" are not too strong to use if formula is given to babies before six months and that does long term damage - that's why it's already illegal to advertise formula milk for babies younger than 6 months - and that's what all the small print is about.
It is sad that breastfeeding families need protection in law just to do what's right in our society, but I think they probably still do. I have to point out that, even with the passing of this legislation, it is still perfectly legal to breastfeed your baby above two years in public in Scotland - the law is only there to protect your right to do so up until 2 years of age, not to criminalise it thereafter.
So, if OddQuine or anyone else thinks of turfing you out of your comfortable seat in the cafe while you're breastfeeding your 18 month old baby (who wears shoes and talks and has teeth!) to sleep after his haggis & neeps, you can be assured you have the law on your side and it will be her who will be charged with a breach of the peace, not you.:lol: If your baby is 2 years or over you can still choose, within the law, to feed him in public, but if anyone should choose to complain about it then you no longer have that legal protection and you should probably get out the milky buttons instead of having a stand up fight over it!;)
Best of luck to you, Sun Circle, and I look forward to reading your words of wisdom many times in the future on the org.
oldmarine
03-Jul-08, 02:14
Mothers breast feed your babies in public and let the hecklers heckle. When baby is hungry feed it and to heck with the naysayers.
Margaret M.
03-Jul-08, 03:49
Its just the same as some people choose to smoke, knowing that its bad for their health. Sun Circle
There is no way to measure/conclude that those who are breastfed are any healthier than those fed formula and there are benefits and drawbacks to each method. Nowadays, infant formula is very close to breast milk and it comes fortified with vitamins and minerals. Since we are what we eat, the quality of a mother's milk is impacted greatly by the mother's diet, stress level, alcohol consumption, etc. Many mothers' diets are far from appropriate before they were pregnant or even while they are nursing. The result is breast milk with low levels or a total lack of many of the important minerals and vitamins.
Whether to breast or bottle feed is a decision that I would hope parents consider very carefully and once they have decided they should feel very comfortable with their choice. Nurturing a child involves much more than the method of feeding. Those who breast feed should not make those who bottle feed feel that their choice will have a negative effect on their baby (as you did with your statement above). Nor should anyone make a mother feel like she is doing something inappropriate, if she is breastfeeding in public.
http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/femail/article-454403/My-beautiful-baby-starving-death-I-defied-breast-best-bullies.html
Gee whizz Oddquine you really are takin this subject and runnin with it aren't you? The orginal post here was to get signatures on a petition to help mothers who are successfully breastfeeding with the right to do so in public. The org being the org it has become an argument for and against breastfeeding. The story you quote, though interesting, was rather extreme. I had both my children by c section, neither was an emergency but both were necessary (I was not too posh to push). I still managed to feed both of them. My second child was 8 weeks premature and I expressed milk for her. In the early stages they gave her a mix of my milk and formula as she needed a wee bit more than I could provide to help her gain weight. This did not last long and like her brother she flourished on breast milk. I did take great care with my diet during both pregnancy and feeding stages. This is important and should be highlighted to mothers deciding which method of feeding they wish to use. As I said before in this thread experience counts the most and I urge prospective mothers to get as much info as possible before making any decisions and do not let anyone push you either way! This nanny state we live in has an awful lot to answer for!
http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/femail/article-454403/My-beautiful-baby-starving-death-I-defied-breast-best-bullies.html
A quote from your article which just proves my point:
"Babies are put at risk when you don't have good breast-feeding policies or training, where hospitals are just paying lip-service to it," she said.
"Ninety-eight per cent of women are physiologically capable of feeding their child and have enough milk to do so. So many fail simply because they are not doing it properly.
"No baby should be readmitted to hospital because of a failure to thrive - that is an indictment of the health service.
"But where it does happen it is not because of rabid breast-feeding promotion, but rather a lack of proper policy. Mothers can fall through great big gaps because they have not had a decent package of care, It's a systemic failure."
OddQuine, I'm well beyond the stage where I am pussyfooting around the feelings of mothers who've been unlucky enough to feel they had no choice but to bottlefeed. That really is like pussyfooting around the feelings of people who feel they're unlucky enough to be addicted to smoking - there's no doubt in my mind that within the next 30 years formula feeding will, as a lifestyle choice, be viewed similarly to how smoking is viewed now. It really is equally bad for the long term health of both child and mother.:~(
(Sincere apologies, by the way, if you're in the unlucky 2% of families who are really in that difficult situation of being physically unable to breastfeed - in that case, well done for formula feeding and saving your baby's life - but the vast majority of families are not forced into formula, they choose it as a lifestyle choice or because the system and society failed to support their choice to breastfeed - this is a situation that urgently needs to be remedied.)
If is a FACT that if all babies were breastfed for at least 3 months, the reduction in the incidence of gastroenteritis alone would save the NHS across the UK over £50million each year... No wonder the Government's so keen!
But my personal interest is not financial, it is that most of those babies with gastroenteritis are suffering it because of their mother's uninformed choice or because of the failure of the system to support their mother's well-informed choice.
The facts are there for all to see and now we need to build a robust system that actually can and does support all those mothers who want to breastfeed. Your story from the Mail is a sad reflection of a society that is struggling to do what's best. This girl's mother, her auntie, her sister or her neighbour should all have been able to help her. But because, as a society, we constantly say "There, there, don't feel bad, here's a bottle - you've done the best you could," then there was no-one there to help her - she was surrounded by people who didn't know how. If I'd been her neighbour her experience would have been quite different because I would have been able to provide the minimal amount of information and support she needed in order to do what she wanted to do - her baby and society would be healthier for that.
Breastfeeding's not hard if you know how to do it. It's just that most of our "civilised" society doesn't know how.
The problem is a failure of the system and lack of support from society - breastfeeding is best, but the support system is not quite there yet.
If you're considering breastfeeding or struggling with breastfeeding, go and find yourself a mother who's successfully breastfed. They will be able to help you. Actively seek out support groups who contain mothers who've successfully breastfed. They will be able to help you. (Ignore OddQuine - she will not be able to help you!;))
Incidentally, don't just expect your midwife or Health Visitor to be able to provide all the information and support you need. Unless they have breastfed a baby themselves, health professionals have learned from a book or a course. Learn from another breastfeeding mother, not a book.
And do breastfeed your babies - until they have shoes, teeth and a large vocabulary!:D
If all babies were breastfed for at
This nanny state we live in has an awful lot to answer for!
As does this "Petition for this, petition for that" society...
If you had rounded on a man for the views above you might have some excuse but quite a few who of those questioning the breastfeeding bullies are female and mothers.
Surely the author of the article has just as much right to choose NOT to breastfeed as the pro lobby have to practice their right in public? The health of her baby was seriously at risk.
The orginal post here was to get signatures on a petition to help mothers who are successfully breastfeeding with the right to do so in public. The org being the org it has become an argument for and against breastfeeding.
At least it is still on topic!!!!
Margaret M.
03-Jul-08, 13:25
I can go and put my feet up now that our own babies are grown up, safe in the knowledge that at least some, maybe even most, of the next generation are understanding what's right for babies and what's not.
Yes, your work here is done.
Margaret M.
03-Jul-08, 13:51
It really is equally bad for the long term health of both child and mother.
So you're not done yet. You statement is broad and vague -- on what do you base it? If bottle feeding is as detrimental as you say it is, surely the evidence would be smacking us all upside the head by now? There are millions of bottle fed babies who are thriving in this world and their mother's are still alive and kicking. Again, mother's milk is only as good as what mother consumes before and during pregnancy and after delivery.
The result is breast milk with low levels or a total lack of many of the important minerals and vitamins.
Hi Margaret,
Do you have any evidence to support this statement? My understanding is that the miracle body takes what it needs to produce quality milk under all but extreme circumstances and that if a mother's diet is lacking, it is the mother's body that will pay the price, not the quality of her milk - except in cases of severe malnutrition. I've heard of toxins leaching into breast-milk, but not of a lack of quality except in the case of a mother who's badly malnourished. I'm interested to know more about your experience of this - you certainly sound like you know what you're talking about. Thanks.
If bottle feeding is as detrimental as you say it is, surely the evidence would be smacking us all upside the head by now? There are millions of bottle fed babies who are thriving in this world and their mother's are still alive and kicking.
Sorry, Margaret, our wires crossed (and may again with this reply!)
You're looking for facts, here they are (from a bottle fed baby who's alive and kicking but still ready to face facts!)
FACT 1: During the first 6 months of life, formula fed children are 5 times more likely to suffer from a urinary tract infection than breastfed children.
FACT 2: The longer a woman breastfeeds, the greater her protection against breast cancer. (Back on track, by the way, that's why we need society to support breastfeeding of toddlers!;))
FACT 3: Formula fed children are more likely to develop childhood obesity and diabetes than breastfed children.
Obesity is "smacking us all upside the head" at the moment - breastfed toddlers become healthy, well regulated eaters because their need to suck has been met in infancy - so they don't have to continue to use food as an emotional support into adulthood.
Supporting women to breastfeed their babies into toddler-hood (in private and in public) is important for the health of both babies and mothers. It's a FACT! - and I'm glad the discussion's back on track!:D
NickInTheNorth
03-Jul-08, 14:47
Quite an interesting overview here (http://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/articles/article.aspx?articleId=641§ionId=17#) about the relative disadvantages of both breast and bottle feeding.
To my mind there is no better method of feeding an infant than breast feeding. However for some it is either not possible, or not convenient, and therefore bottle feeding is used instead. It is not fair that some small sections of society chose to poor scorn on those that either choose or are forced into bottle feeding.
I have no issues with people choosing to breast feed in public, at whatever age. Anyone that sees this as "disgusting" or "weird" or whatever other term of derision is chosen needs to have a think about the issue. It is how we are designed. Babies need fed, mothers produce milk for that purpose and they should be free to do so when where and how they want.
I'll not be signing the petition as I don't believe they are an effective means of influencing decision makers in public life, but I certainly support the believe behind it.
And an interesting article here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1015176.stm)about the role of the media in promoting bottle feeding!
And do breastfeed your babies - until they have shoes, teeth and a large vocabulary!:D
My Mum followed that advice to the letter with me. Embarrassingly for us both though, I was Sixteen before I had a large vocabulary ;)
my wee one was 11 weeks prem and after waking up after my emergency csection i was basically forced to express. i didnt have the energy and was very upset, i dont think that the way i was approached about it was great, i had to use a scary mechanical looking machine to express when i was able and i had to stop because the machine hurt my breasts made me bleed, i felt like a failure considering my wee ones state........ i then bottle fed and she is very healthy, happy child!
i signed the petition as i think woman should be allowed to feed in public.....
"Incidentally, don't just expect your midwife or Health Visitor to be able to provide all the information and support you need. Unless they have breastfed a baby themselves, health professionals have learned from a book or a course. Learn from another breastfeeding mother, not a book."
Bang on Tootler - my point exactly!
And dear MadPict - yes the author of the article does have the right to choose how to feed her baby. It also showed up as a very sad picture of society today that no-one was able to help the woman before she got to the stage of her baby being re-admitted to hospital.
There is so much ignorance around this subject it is shameful - something older than the hills and so natural - so much for evolution!
As I said before, there are so many breasts in our face all the time in the papers, on TV (including prime time) it seems a breast is fine to put on display unless it is being used for what it is designed for.
For babies breast it best - There has been enough evidence other the years to support that.
Having said that I think we need to ask ourselves three important questions (there may be more):
If breast is best does that mean all mothers will be able to breast feed?
If breast is best does that mean mothers who choose to bottle feed should be ostracised?
If breast is best does that mean mothers who choose to breast feed in public should be ostracised?
My answer to all three is a resounding NO!
IMHO it would take a very narrow minded individual to say yes to any of those questions. Which begs one further question, what are we arguing about here?
When my wife was in Hospital with our son, one of the other Mums asked my wife if it was OK to breast feed her kid, as she was worried about embarrassing me. I told her to carry on, as it didn't bother me one little bit. I don't think there is any way that breast feeding should be prevented. It is natural and people who are embarrassed about it should grow up.
Objections belong back when this man was king on TV with the catchphrase:-
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i237/scorrie57/250px-John_Thaw_as_Jack_Regan.jpg
PUT THEM AWAY LUV!!
I have to say that reading all those "breast is best" sites, one kinda wonders why there are any bottle fed women of my age still alive................couldn't possibly be anything to do with genetics, could it?
Many of the problems attributed to bottle feeding..........like diarrheal infections etc...are more down to the lack of proper sterilising than either the bottle or the milk.
And how many of the studies which produce all these scaremongering statistics are done in under-developed countries with polluted water and poor hygiene?
And we can all do statistics............for example
a) Breast milk jaundice affects around 2.5% of breast fed babies and typically persists for up to 16 weeks. Jaundice levels are lower in neonates fed Nutramigen (casein-hydrolysate formula) rather than Enfamil (a standard formula) and both these groups have lower jaundice levels than breast-fed infants.
b)While breastfeeding has many benefits, it won't prevent a child from becoming fat as an adult, says a new study that challenges dogma from US health officials.
The research is the largest study to date on breast-feeding and its effect on adult obesity.
And of course there is also the problem of a mother feeding in her milk what she ingests.........at least with a bottle, a mother knows exactly what is going into her child..it's on the side of the packet.
Lets be honest here.........if a conclusion to any study says may...it isn't a conclusion it's a hope.
If you have a look at the barrowloads of information all over the internet, much of it is opinion and not fact.
And funnily enough.....you really have to search hard for statistics...........but opinions jump out and hit you in the face.
I repeat, yet again btw,........that I have no quibble with breastfeeding babies in public................but do query the necessity of breastfeeding toddlers.........because I really don't see how that can be done discreetly.
Which begs one further question, what are we arguing about here?
Hi Tristan,
What about this for one more question?
Should all mothers who want to breastfeed and are physically able to breastfeed be encouraged and enabled to just get on with it successfully?
"Yes" as well, I think you'll agree, but that's not happening just now for several reasons:
Society is unable to support breastfeeding mothers adequately because not enough people have enjoyed a successful breastfeeding relationship, so we're lacking experience to support new mothers.
Also because of the tiny number of visibly breastfeeding mothers, society is losing faith in mothers' ability to breastfeed and this means even more mothers / fathers / grandparents / friends go into this "new" experience expecting to fail. (Hence the need for mothers to be encouraged to breastfeed in public, discreetly or not.) We used to expect to succeed because there was no other choice - and, for the most part, we did succeed.
Powerful multi-national milk formula producers are rubbing their hands with glee at this situation and, dare I say, are milking it!
What can we do about all of this?
Not much! But:
Next time you see a mother breastfeeding her baby or toddler in public, give her a "well done" smile and a nod.
Next time you meet someone who wants to breastfeed but is having trouble, introduce them to someone who has breastfed successfully or look up the number of a breastfeeding counsellor for them - this is the best gift you can give a new mother.
Next time you meet someone with a negative attitude towards you breastfeeding, just ignore them and find someone who does appreciate your efforts! ;)
Well done, breast feeding mothers of Caithness, keep up the very good work - I expect to see you out there doing the business!:D
Who would have imaged it - breastfeeding zealots.......
Who would have imaged it - breastfeeding zealots.......
Why does supporting breastfeeding make someone a zealot? I also liked your Best is breast bullies quote. Don't agree with the "policy by headline" mentality sounds far to new labour to me but much like breastfeeding to each his own.
Tristan,
It wasn't aimed at you - I actually agreed with your comments in post #90.
I just get the sense that there are some who won't stop until every woman in the UK is breastfeeding whether they want to or not. Hence the zealotry...
Tristan,
It wasn't aimed at you - I actually agreed with your comments in post #90.
I just get the sense that there are some who won't stop until every woman in the UK is breastfeeding whether they want to or not. Hence the zealotry...
I didn't think it was aimed at me I guess I just dislike the implication of the word zealot. Like you (as I said in my post) the right choice is right for the women and we or the government should support but not insist what should be done..
Sun Circle
03-Jul-08, 21:37
There is no way to measure/conclude that those who are breastfed are any healthier than those fed formula and there are benefits and drawbacks to each method.
Statistics can be twisted to fit any argument, as Oddquine has rightly pointed out. But there are many, many, studies showing that nature has got it right with breastmilk. All the "advantages of breastmilk" can equally be seen as "disadvantages" of formula. For instance when we say breastfeeding gives a reduced risk of allergies, that actually means that for thousands of years breastmilk has provided protection for babies, and the use of artificial formula causes an increased risk of allergy.
Equally, when you read statistics that say breastmilk builds a stronger immune system, in fact breastfeeding is the natural benchmark and formula feeding results in a weaker immune system.
Breastfed babies are not "healthier". They are as healthy as humans have always been. It is a fact that formula-fed babies are ill more often and more seriously. Tootler was right with her point about cost savings to the NHS. It doesn't mean all formula fed babies will be ill. It doesn't mean all breastfed babies will be healthy. But governments across the globe are starting to pay attention because they realise that a breastfed population is healthier, resulting in cost savings across the board over a lifetime.
Nowadays, infant formula is very close to breast milk and it comes fortified with vitamins and minerals.
Infant formula is not very close to breastmilk - the cartons used to say "now closer to breastmilk than ever!" but that is still not very close at all! In fact formula is far closer to cows milk than human milk (which is why that particular marketing ploy was banned). And a baby would no doubt survive if given cows milk from the start. Heck, I was fed on diluted Carnation milk from a tin and I'm still standing! But that does not mean that I might have been healthier, suffered less allergies and intolerances, had a healthier digestive system if I had been breastfed. Who knows? I'm willing to take a chance that millions of years of evolution are more likely to have got it right than some money-making mad scientists working for a multinational formula company.
Today's society has many ailments that are reaching "epidemic" proportions... obesity, diabetes and allergies such as eczema and asthma (anyone sneezing today? I know I was!).
Is it any coincidence that when you look at the risks of formula-feeding all these issues seem to crop up? We are a generation of formula-fed children. We are healthy, but not as healthy as we might be. And its costing the NHS a small fortune to sort out ailments that we need
Who is to say if a child's diet and upbringing in the first year impacts on these ailments in later life? For myself I believe that they do. But as OddQuine has proved, statistics can be twisted to prove any old nonsense! So we can argue until we are blue in the face on the basis of statistics, and never come to agreement.
Since we are what we eat, the quality of a mother's milk is impacted greatly by the mother's diet, stress level, alcohol consumption, etc. Many mothers' diets are far from appropriate before they were pregnant or even while they are nursing. The result is breast milk with low levels or a total lack of many of the important minerals and vitamins.
As Tootler has rightly said, the nutritional quality of breastmilk is not affected unless the mother is severely malnourished. Research from developing countries shows that even mothers who are mildly malnourished produce an adequate supply of good quality milk for their babies. Only in near-famine conditions will a mother's nutrition affect her milk supply or the composition of her milk (studies by Perez-Escamilla 1995; Prentice 1994) So I think in Caithness we should be safe enough, unless the Ord is shut by snow for weeks and the Co-op and Tescos run out of food.... :lol:
Even if mothers do not eat well, their milk composition tends to remain stable. The mother's body gives the baby priority. Its natural survival at in action.
Whether to breast or bottle feed is a decision that I would hope parents consider very carefully and once they have decided they should feel very comfortable with their choice. Nurturing a child involves much more than the method of feeding. Those who breast feed should not make those who bottle feed feel that their choice will have a negative effect on their baby (as you did with your statement above). Nor should anyone make a mother feel like she is doing something inappropriate, if she is breastfeeding in public.
Like I said before, if mothers choose to feed their babies on artificial formula then that is their decision. Its a confusing world out there and like so many parenting decisions there is conflicting advice and information bombarding all new mothers. Who should they believe?
By providing information about the benefits of breastfeeding in comparison to formula feeding, the NHS are not scaremongering, they are just providing information. After that is is down to the mum to decide and in my experience, mothers without fail always choose what they believe is best for themselves and their babies, whether they believe that to be formula or breastfeeding.
I'm afraid that I cannot apologise for the statement I made comparing smoking to formula-feeding. I personally believe that the comparison is very apt. In 50 years time I believe we will look back on the formula-feeding boom and its health implications in the same way that we now realise how people in the 1950's were mislead by the tobacco companies and their marketing. The formula companies know the risks. They do everything in their power to hide them and gloss over them.
To quote the SMA formula milk website:
"Deciding how you’re going to feed your baby is a decision only you can make. Breast feeding is best, though some mums may not be able to breast feed or may choose to bottle feed. "
There is no dispute that breast is best for the baby, so I cannot understand why anyone would choose to formula feed without even giving breastfeeding a go.
Once again, I'd like to stress that there is support out there if you have problems breastfeeding, so please don't feel that you have to give up because of a lack of information, support or help. www.caithnessbreastfriends.org.uk (http://www.caithnessbreastfriends.org.uk)
Sun Circle
Sun Circle
03-Jul-08, 21:55
my wee one was 11 weeks prem and after waking up after my emergency csection i was basically forced to express. i didnt have the energy and was very upset, i dont think that the way i was approached about it was great, i had to use a scary mechanical looking machine to express when i was able and i had to stop because the machine hurt my breasts made me bleed, i felt like a failure considering my wee ones state........ i then bottle fed and she is very healthy, happy child!
i signed the petition as i think woman should be allowed to feed in public.....
Ash, I'm really sorry to hear your story and I'm pleased it has a happy ending! And special thanks for signing the petition - you are a gem.
Unfortunately it is not the first time I've heard of mums being treated with this kind of disregard. NHS staff do work under incredible pressures due to lack of staffing etc and I would like to hope that the lack of empathy and tact used in this situation was due to those pressures rather than meant in any callous or offhand way. I wish that the NHS had more money to spend on extra staff who would have time to be "on the patient's side". Someone who had time to sit, to listen, to explain... but unfortunately as we all know workers in the NHS don't have that luxury since they are often understaffed and time-pressured.
I'm not making any excuses for them, though. I sincerely wish that you had been treated better and that the problems with pumping and nipple soreness had been addressed, and that breastfeeding had worked out for you.
This is a prime example of where you must not feel guilty AT ALL for formula-feeding. You did what was best for your baby given circumstances outwith your control and I'm glad that she is blossoming. The blame is squarely with the NHS on this one, not with any staff member in particular, I suspect, but with a system that allows this to happen.
I am happy to advocate for anyone who has been mistreated like this - feel free to private mail me and I'll take it up with the NHS Infant Feeding Advisors in Inverness. Unless we highlight the failings of the system it will never change.
Sun Circle
Sun Circle
03-Jul-08, 21:59
What can we do about all of this?
Not much! But:
Next time you see a mother breastfeeding her baby or toddler in public, give her a "well done" smile and a nod.
Next time you meet someone who wants to breastfeed but is having trouble, introduce them to someone who has breastfed successfully or look up the number of a breastfeeding counsellor for them - this is the best gift you can give a new mother.
Next time you meet someone with a negative attitude towards you breastfeeding, just ignore them and find someone who does appreciate your efforts! ;)
Well done, breast feeding mothers of Caithness, keep up the very good work - I expect to see you out there doing the business!:D
You are spot on, Tootler! Sound advice indeed.
(And thanks for the warm welcome too!)
Sun Circle
Statistics can be twisted to fit any argument, as Oddquine has rightly pointed out. But there are many, many, studies showing that nature has got it right with breastmilk.
So point me in their direction...or even diatribes which give enough information about the studies so I can read them for myself.
All the "advantages of breastmilk" can equally be seen as "disadvantages" of formula. For instance when we say breastfeeding gives a reduced risk of allergies, that actually means that for thousands of years breastmilk has provided protection for babies, and the use of artificial formula causes an increased risk of allergy.
Now that is just ridiculous............breastfeeding gives a reduced risk of allergies means that bottle feeding gives a risk of allergies......not an increased one. The difference between 100%..a risk, and 95%, a reduced risk.........is most definitely not 105% :roll:
If that is an example of the way the breast feeding mafia manipulate statistics............it makes one wonder how much else has been unproven and exaggerated.
Equally, when you read statistics that say breastmilk builds a stronger immune system, in fact breastfeeding is the natural benchmark and formula feeding results in a weaker immune system.
Balderdash....a quote from one of the few factual websites I've found.......
Doctors tell you that colostrum (produced in the first three days or so after a baby is born) and breast milk are full of maternal antibodies. Next, doctors say that these maternal antibodies are absorbed into the infant's blood circulation and thus serve to protect infants from disease.
That's the correct description of the immunology of breast-feeding for most mammals. It's also true that human colostrum and milk are rich in maternal antibodies—colostrum is pretty much antibody soup. And babies take in these antibodies as they nurse. But human babies are never able to absorb maternal antibodies from milk or colostrum into the bloodstream, except perhaps in the minutest amounts. Maternal antibodies in milk and colostrum protect against infection—but only locally, working inside the baby's gastrointestinal tract. . . .
It was well-known, even commonplace, in the immunological literature of 40 years ago
Breastfed babies are not "healthier". They are as healthy as humans have always been. It is a fact that formula-fed babies are ill more often and more seriously. Tootler was right with her point about cost savings to the NHS. It doesn't mean all formula fed babies will be ill. It doesn't mean all breastfed babies will be healthy. But governments across the globe are starting to pay attention because they realise that a breastfed population is healthier, resulting in cost savings across the board over a lifetime.
And wouldn't that be as much because of lack of hygiene in preparing the feeds and bottles.
Another quote-and from a pro breast feeding doctor-
Nursing is credited with preventing infants from getting cancer, allergic diseases, Crohn's disease, cavities, SIDS, and with improving IQ. For mothers, it's also asserted to prevent diabetes, certain cancers, and postpartum depression. In most cultures, however, vast differences—economic, educational, ethnic, psychological, biological—separate women who choose to breast-feed from women who choose formula-feeding. These differences are exaggerated when researchers compare, as they commonly do, the babies of women who breast-feed exclusively for six months and those who exclusively formula-feed for that length of time. The difficulty of doing research on humans thus poses a particular problem for studies of breast-feeding.
Infant formula is not very close to breastmilk - the cartons used to say "now closer to breastmilk than ever!" but that is still not very close at all! In fact formula is far closer to cows milk than human milk (which is why that particular marketing ploy was banned). And a baby would no doubt survive if given cows milk from the start. Heck, I was fed on diluted Carnation milk from a tin and I'm still standing! But that does not mean that I might have been healthier, suffered less allergies and intolerances, had a healthier digestive system if I had been breastfed. Who knows? I'm willing to take a chance that millions of years of evolution are more likely to have got it right than some money-making mad scientists working for a multinational formula company.
Today's society has many ailments that are reaching "epidemic" proportions... obesity, diabetes and allergies such as eczema and asthma (anyone sneezing today? I know I was!).
Is it any coincidence that when you look at the risks of formula-feeding all these issues seem to crop up? We are a generation of formula-fed children. We are healthy, but not as healthy as we might be. And its costing the NHS a small fortune to sort out ailments that we need
Who is to say if a child's diet and upbringing in the first year impacts on these ailments in later life? For myself I believe that they do.
So all your posts are your opinion..not the dictat you make them appear?
But as OddQuine has proved, statistics can be twisted to prove any old nonsense! So we can argue until we are blue in the face on the basis of statistics, and never come to agreement.
And you have proved exactly what? :confused
Oddquine has shown that all the claims made for the efficacy of breastfeeding are not necessarily so......nothing more and nothing less........no twisting at all. I can give you links to the scientific papers which give them.
As Tootler has rightly said, the nutritional quality of breastmilk is not affected unless the mother is severely malnourished. Research from developing countries shows that even mothers who are mildly malnourished produce an adequate supply of good quality milk for their babies. Only in near-famine conditions will a mother's nutrition affect her milk supply or the composition of her milk (studies by Perez-Escamilla 1995; Prentice 1994) So I think in Caithness we should be safe enough, unless the Ord is shut by snow for weeks and the Co-op and Tescos run out of food.... :lol:
Even if mothers do not eat well, their milk composition tends to remain stable. The mother's body gives the baby priority. Its natural survival at in action.
Then you'll be surprised to hear that Those agencies
asserting the nutritional superiority of breast-feeding have
recently had to deal with the unfortunate experimental
evidence that both parts of the international recommendations,
for early exclusive breast-feeding and prolonged
partial breast-feeding, are associated with growth faltering
relative to relevant controls. Breast-fed infants grow at least
as well as the largely non-breast-fed cohort of the widelyused
National Centre for Health Statistics/WHO standards
during the period of exclusive breast-feeding (World Health
Organization Working Group on Infant Growth, 1994).
However, in areas where ambient infection is low, these
infants growth falter compared with the standards in the
second half of infancy when partially breast-fed. Children
breast-fed for prolonged periods, defined variously as more
than about 12–18 months, have often been shown to have
poorer anthropometric indices than children given breast
milk early but weaned by the time of measurement (Victora
et al. 1984; Brakohiapa et al. 1988; Briend & Bari, 1989;
Nube & Asenso-Okyere, 1996).
Like I said before, if mothers choose to feed their babies on artificial formula then that is their decision. Its a confusing world out there and like so many parenting decisions there is conflicting advice and information bombarding all new mothers. Who should they believe?
By providing information about the benefits of breastfeeding in comparison to formula feeding, the NHS are not scaremongering, they are just providing information. After that is is down to the mum to decide and in my experience, mothers without fail always choose what they believe is best for themselves and their babies, whether they believe that to be formula or breastfeeding.
They are providing information to further their own agenda. The WHO studies have predominantly been undertaken in the third world, and to directly translate the findings of studies in countries which have polluted water to the developed world is somewhat chancing their arms.
There is no dispute that breast is best for the baby, so I cannot understand why anyone would choose to formula feed without even giving breastfeeding a go.
Because they don't want to breastfeed, perhaps?
You don't need to understand it.....just accept that there are people in the world who don't think as you do......and won't as long as they are being hectored!
Lord Flasheart
04-Jul-08, 01:51
I signed the petition, something I dont normally do because women breastfeeding in public is something that has never bothered me (well, apart from the severe jealousy) so mothers who do breast feed can crack on in my book.
My ex breastfed and I used to get hacked off at people who would complain, I never understood why they got so upset about it.
Margaret M.
04-Jul-08, 05:26
Do you have any evidence to support this statement? My understanding is that the miracle body takes what it needs to produce quality milk under all but extreme circumstances and that if a mother's diet is lacking, it is the mother's body that will pay the price, not the quality of her milk - except in cases of severe malnutrition
If the breastfeeding mother does not eat a healthy diet, and a quick look around us confirms that very few do, milk production will indeed take priority, to the detriment of the mother's own health.
Vitamins A, D and B12 are the most likely to be impacted if the mother is malnourished. As this report shows, http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,279574,00.html there are 2 to 4 million people in the U.K. who are malnourished even though they may be obese, and fewer than 20% of adults eat the recommended five daily portions of fruits and vegetables.
In Caithness where the sun can be in short supply, is a vitamin D test given to breastfeeding mothers and a supplement provided when necessary? If a breastfeeding woman is lacking in vitamin D, the baby will also have low vitamin D and calcium levels resulting in possible seizures in the first months of life.
DHA, which is now added to many of the formulas, will be present in breast milk ONLY IF the mother consumes a diet rich in omega-3 fatty acids. The standard diet supplies very little omega-3 fats which are crucial for proper brain development. Studies to see how much of the omega-3's gets into the breast milk after consumption show that levels in the milk vary even though the same amount of fatty acids were consumed. So the nutritional makeup of breast milk may be impacted by genes as well as diet.
I am in agreement that the optimum milk for babies is human milk provided that:
-mother does not smoke or drink on a regular basis
-mother's diet is a healthy, balanced one, rich in omega-3's, with little to no saturated fats
-mother gets an adequate level of vitamin D
Alcohol and nicotine pass through to breast milk and some studies determined that they affect the amount of breast milk produced. Infants fed exclusively on breast milk from mothers who smoke may need to be given supplemental feeding to insure maximum growth. The motor skills of one year olds who have been subjected regularly to alcohol have been proven to be lacking significantly.
There are many factors to consider before concluding that breastfeeding is the better choice for everyone. I totally disagree with the statement that mothers who choose to bottle feed are making a choice that will have an adverse effect on their health and the health of their baby. I was breast fed, I bottle fed, and from a health standpoint, I fail to see a difference.
Tristan,
It wasn't aimed at you - I actually agreed with your comments in post #90.
I just get the sense that there are some who won't stop until every woman in the UK is breastfeeding whether they want to or not. Hence the zealotry...
Hiya, MadPict - I guess your comment was aimed at me!;)
You're right in a way - I won't stop until every mother in the UK who wants to breastfeed is enabled to do so successfully. That's all. I won't tolerate bullies who try to convince hormonally vulnerable breastfeeding mums that they've made the wrong choice and would be better with formula. Call me a Zealot if you like!:lol:
....& Welcome back, Sun Circle - good to have your common sense here to inform all - and with such a warm, friendly counselling style! Keep it up, even under fire - you are doing very good work for the common good. Keep supporting the mums who want to and just ignore the mums who don't.
(I'm a bit worried that maybe OddQuine and Margaret might be the health professionals who should be supporting breastfeeding mums - you certainly both sound a bit like my health visitor in the South!;))
Hiya, MadPict - I guess your comment was aimed at me!
You're right in a way - I won't stop until every mother in the UK who wants to breastfeed is enabled to do so successfully. That's all. I won't tolerate bullies who try to convince hormonally vulnerable breastfeeding mums that they've made the wrong choice and would be better with formula. Call me a Zealot if you like!
....& Welcome back, Sun Circle - good to have your common sense here to inform all - and with such a warm, friendly counselling style! Keep it up, even under fire - you are doing very good work for the common good. Keep supporting the mums who want to and just ignore the mums who don't.
(I'm a bit worried that maybe OddQuine and Margaret might be the health professionals who should be supporting breastfeeding mums - you certainly both sound a bit like my health visitor in the South!;))
Kindly point me to any part of any post of mine (or MargaretM's) which says either of us are against breastfeeding.
Rather than making erroneous remarks...wouldn't it do more for your campaign to counter the arguments we make against the miraculous claims you and Sun Circle claim for breastfeeding.....rather than remarks like your last paragraph.
An example of your erroneous remarks in your championing of breastfeeding and daemonising of mothers who bottle feed is your comment that The words "internal bleeding" are not too strong to use if formula is given to babies before six months.................that actually applies to cow's milk............but, hey.........why spoil good patronising posts with the truth. :roll:
Kindly point me to any part of any post of mine (or MargaretM's) which says either of us are against breastfeeding.
Rather than making erroneous remarks...wouldn't it do more for your campaign to counter the arguments we make against the miraculous claims you and Sun Circle claim for breastfeeding.....rather than remarks like your last paragraph.
An example of your erroneous remarks in your championing of breastfeeding and daemonising of mothers who bottle feed is your comment that The words "internal bleeding" are not too strong to use if formula is given to babies before six months.................that actually applies to cow's milk............but, hey.........why spoil good patronising posts with the truth.
Okay, OddQuine, I didn't say that you were "against breastfeeding" anywhere - you have inferred that yourself - but I apologise for the misunderstanding. You yourself have quite plainly said that you're not against breastfeeding. I suggested you were like my old health visitor - she didn't think she was against breastfeeding, either - she was doing her very best to help me but her prejudiced comments and lack of faith in my body's ability didn't help me to breastfeed successfully and ignoring her advice did. :roll:
Here's another fact from a medical site to assuage any fears you have erroneously stirred up regarding the "danger" of breast milk jaundice:
Breast milk jaundice: Jaundice that develops between 4-7 days of age, and can persist for weeks. This type of jaundice tends to recur in breast-fed siblings, is caused by hormonal interaction (5-beta-pregnane-3-alpha-20 beta-diol) of breast milk with hepatic enzymes, and also will go away if left untreated. This jaundice is also indirect; no kernicterus has ever been reported with this kind of jaundice.
And, FYI, it was a very experienced NHS Infant Feeding Advisor that told me about the internal bleeding in answer to the question "Why does formula have such high iron levels compared to breast milk?" The answer was two-fold - the iron in breastmilk is much more easily absorbed and so you need less of it (as you'd expect) and formula fed infants, especially tiny ones, need extra iron to counteract the internal bleeding they suffer as a result of trying to digest the indigestible. That's why breastfed stools are so light in colour - they contain no half-digested blood. She was talking about formula, not cow's milk. And she remains a highly regarded expert in helping premature babies. She also, very occasionally, still recommends formula as the only way to go to keep a baby alive. Sometimes it is. :(
I so much hope I was wrong about you having ever been in a position where you were expected to support new breastfeeding mothers, but your attitude is comparable to other formula-feeding mums who are working as health professionals that I've encountered - they have been forced into the situation of having to "help" new breastfeeding mums within the NHS despite their lack of positive personal experience in that field. They lack faith and have their own personal issues to deal with.
Breastfeeding mums should help breastfeeding mums - that works. I'm in agreement that forcing health professionals to act against their own maternal instincts doesn't work - most of us breastfeeding mothers have been a victim of that situation and it's no good for anyone.:roll:
But to get back to topic, OddQuine, public breastfeeding, discrete or otherwise, is an important way forward to enable our society to have faith in their own ability of mothers to sustain their babies. And as there's proven evidence that breastfeeding for longer increases protection for a mother from the risk of breast cancer, then surely public breastfeeding of toddlers should be encouraged, not swept under the carpet? Or can you not see that?
Margaret M.
04-Jul-08, 14:47
You're right in a way - I won't stop until every mother in the UK who wants to breastfeed is enabled to do so successfully. That's all. I won't tolerate bullies who try to convince hormonally vulnerable breastfeeding mums that they've made the wrong choice and would be better with formula. Call me a Zealot if you like!:lol:
Your desire for every woman to breast feed regardless of the mother's health, eating habits, smoking, drinking, or drug activity is reckless. The mothers' level of maturity, sense of responsibilty and commitment vary greatly and those factors are very important when breastfeeding. I am glad there are health visitors who can evaluate objectively and advise on the more appropriate method. I would hope they would consider breastfeeding as the first option but there are clearly some babies who should be bottle fed.
Sun Circle
04-Jul-08, 16:45
So point me in their direction...or even diatribes which give enough information about the studies so I can read them for myself.
Below are just a few sources for the information I base my opinions on. I've only put down sources for diabetes, since I don't want to waste my time unless you are seriously interested. I'd be happy to quote sources for any other particular areas of research you want to know about.
If you are genuinely interested, then I suggest you contact La Leche League International who publish a quarterly summary of all the breastfeeding research published by the medical profession in that quarter. The most up to date research is summarised and full references given. Not all the research is in favour of breastfeeding. Sometimes conclusions are neutral and some studies can be inconclusive. So don't even try to use the argument that La Leche League are breastfeeding zealots with mafia links that only promote research supporting their cause. They list ALL the medical research published, and the vast majority of research backs up the fact that breast is best.
I apologise that most of these references are in medical journals which are probably not available on the web. I have to point out that I am just a mum, not a scientist or a medical professional, so I leave the interpretation of these studies to the professionals and accept that their conclusions are accurate.
If the government medical advisors agree with them, and the UNICEF medical advisors agree and the World Health Organisation accepts them, then who am I to disagree with them?
I was not at all surprised to see the quotes you have made. If seen similar stuff myself on the web. Anyone can post anything on the internet, with no medical background, qualifications, who are not recognised as being an authority in their field. I even saw one website that promoted unpasturised cows milk as better than any infant formula or breastmilk (subsidised by dairy farmers in the USA!) So you'll forgive me if I do not jump to agree with anything I see on the Web unless it is backed up by specific medical references, such as the ones that are used by UNICEF, WHO and other well-known health organisations.
Here are just a few references for my diabetes argument, but they are but a drop in the ocean, new studies are being published monthly on all sorts of breastfeeding topics and I trust the conclusions drawn by recognised health authorities, since I know I could never hope to understand the medicine involved.
Studies that have shown that formula fed infants are more at risk of developing diabetes in later life than breastfed infants.
Karjalainen, J. et al. A bovine albumin peptide as a possible trigger of insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus. New England Journal of Medicine 1992; 327(5):302-07
Metcalf M. et al. Family characteristics and insulin dependent diabetes. Archive of Diseases in Childhood (The journal of the Royal College of Pediatrics and Child Health) 1992; 67(6);731-36
Virtanen, S. et al Infant Feeding in Finnish children < 7 years of age with newly diagnosed IDDM Diabetes Care 1991: 14(5): 415-17
The evidence is overwhelming. As I said before, governments worldwide accept that breast is best, UNICEF accept breast is best, WHO accept that breast is best, for goodness sake, even Nestle and other formula companies accept that breast is best.
Then again, Oddquine, I suppose you might like to publish your own research and prove them all wrong. You are fighting a losing battle with your arguments. What I'd like to know is, why are you so passionate about the subject? How have the breastfeeding zealots wronged you? Do you really not accept the overwhelming medical evidence that formula is a poor subsitute for breastmilk?
Sun Circle
Sun Circle
04-Jul-08, 16:54
Children
breast-fed for prolonged periods, defined variously as more
than about 12–18 months, have often been shown to have
poorer anthropometric indices than children given breast
milk early but weaned by the time of measurement !
I'm afraid, OddQuine, I don't fully understand this quote you've given. Can you put my mind at rest and explain exactly what are "anthropometric indices"?
I've a feeling that it might mean that breastfed toddlers are lean and healthy, the way nature intended, whereas formula-fed toddlers are fatter. Is that the case?
Thanks,
Sun Circle
Sun Circle
04-Jul-08, 17:02
Because they don't want to breastfeed, perhaps?
You don't need to understand it.....just accept that there are people in the world who don't think as you do......and won't as long as they are being hectored!
I do accept it. I want to educate mums-to-be so their decision is informed. If they decide to formula feed I do accept it. Like I said before, it is their decision, and the right to make your own choices is central to our civilised society.
But I'd like to understand it. Why are you so shy to explain your motives for preferring to formula feed? Maybe it has to do with the sexualisation of the breast in our society. Some women are disgusted at the thought of breastfeeding their baby. I find that very sad indeed, since it is breastfeeding which has brought our species this far... if we turn our backs on it now, wholeheartedly, and we lose the "art" of breastfeeding, then heaven help us when catastrophe strikes.
There were babies who died in Hurricane Katrina because of lack of access to clean water to make up formula. In the event of a global catastrophe our species will quickly become extinct if we don't know how to breastfeed our babies. Maybe if we get to that stage, it might be for the best!
Sun Circle
Okay, OddQuine, I didn't say that you were "against breastfeeding" anywhere - you have inferred that yourself - but I apologise for the misunderstanding. You yourself have quite plainly said that you're not against breastfeeding. I suggested you were like my old health visitor - she didn't think she was against breastfeeding, either - she was doing her very best to help me but her prejudiced comments and lack of faith in my body's ability didn't help me to breastfeed successfully and ignoring her advice did.
Excuse me! I am simply pointing to other as reliable evidence which contradicts some of what you say.
After all, you want new mothers to have informed choices.....but it is obvious they won't get that from pro-breastfeeders, either lay or professional.
Here's another fact from a medical site to assuage any fears you have erroneously stirred up regarding the "danger" of breast milk jaundice:
Breast milk jaundice: Jaundice that develops between 4-7 days of age, and can persist for weeks. This type of jaundice tends to recur in breast-fed siblings, is caused by hormonal interaction (5-beta-pregnane-3-alpha-20 beta-diol) of breast milk with hepatic enzymes, and also will go away if left untreated. This jaundice is also indirect; no kernicterus has ever been reported with this kind of jaundice.
So the AAP is wrong?
A quote: Breast-feeding and jaundice: breast-fed infants 3 times more likely to have bilrubin levels >12 mg/dL or >15 mg/ dL than formula-fed infants; but teaching effective breast-feeding may significantly reduce the risk for severe hyperbilirubinemia; breast-feeding frequency in first 24 hr and likelihood of bilirubin >15 mg/dL on day 6 (study)— if infant nursed 9 to 11 times on day 1, no risk; if infant nursed 0 to 2 times, almost 30% risk for bilirubin >13 mg/ dL; linear relationship between frequency of nursing in hospital and likelihood of infant developing high bilirubin;
Another quote: Kernicterus in otherwise healthy breast-fed term infants (Maisels and Newman): criteria—≥37 wk gestation; no evidence of hemolysis, jaundice, or sepsis; no cause for elevated bilirubin other than breast-feeding; 6 cases—not one born ≥40 wk gestation; 4 of 6 at 37 wk gestation; 4 of 6 boys; presented in office or emergency department (ED) at 4 to 10 days with bilirubin levels 39.0 to 49.7 mg/dL; conclusions—kernicterus can and does occur in healthy breast-feeding infant if bilirubin sufficiently high
And, FYI, it was a very experienced NHS Infant Feeding Advisor that told me about the internal bleeding in answer to the question "Why does formula have such high iron levels compared to breast milk?" The answer was two-fold - the iron in breastmilk is much more easily absorbed and so you need less of it (as you'd expect) and formula fed infants, especially tiny ones, need extra iron to counteract the internal bleeding they suffer as a result of trying to digest the indigestible. That's why breastfed stools are so light in colour - they contain no half-digested blood. She was talking about formula, not cow's milk. And she remains a highly regarded expert in helping premature babies. She also, very occasionally, still recommends formula as the only way to go to keep a baby alive. Sometimes it is. :(
Then your Infant feeding advisor wasnt up on the current thinking....or she had her own agenda!
And FYI........from the US Department of Health
Infants and toddlers 6-24 months of age need a lot of iron to grow and develop. The iron that full-term infants have stored in their bodies is used up in the first 4-6 months of life. After that, infants need to get iron from food or supplements. Premature and low-birth-weight babies are at even greater risk for iron-deficiency anemia because they don't have as much iron stored in their bodies. Other children at risk for anemia are:
Children with poor nutrition, including low-income children
Children with lead in their blood
Infants fed cow's milk before 1 year of age
Breastfed infants older than 4 months who are not receiving iron-rich solid foods or iron supplements
Note the COW's milk! :roll:
Admittedly formula has iron added..but that is to make better for those babies whose mothers can't or won't breastfeed....not because of any internal bleeding formula causes.
You damage your breastfeeding championing by repeating erroneous "facts"
I so much hope I was wrong about you having ever been in a position where you were expected to support new breastfeeding mothers, but your attitude is comparable to other formula-feeding mums who are working as health professionals that I've encountered - they have been forced into the situation of having to "help" new breastfeeding mums within the NHS despite their lack of positive personal experience in that field. They lack faith and have their own personal issues to deal with.
I repeat, I have no problem with mothers breastfeeding if they wish..........but I can't say I am enthusiastic about people like you who manipulate facts and studies to prove what you want, make up the rest.....and then patronise those who can't or don't want to do what you think they should....and then talk about informed consent.
Breastfeeding mums should help breastfeeding mums - that works. I'm in agreement that forcing health professionals to act against their own maternal instincts doesn't work - most of us breastfeeding mothers have been a victim of that situation and it's no good for anyone.:roll:
That would be best...after all you don't expect non AA members to mentor AA members.
But to get back to topic, OddQuine, public breastfeeding, discrete or otherwise, is an important way forward to enable our society to have faith in their own ability of mothers to sustain their babies. And as there's proven evidence that breastfeeding for longer increases protection for a mother from the risk of breast cancer, then surely public breastfeeding of toddlers should be encouraged, not swept under the carpet? Or can you not see that?
I can see that where possible and wanted, breastfeeding of up to 12 months old children should take place where necessary. I still fail to see that the breastfeeding of toddlers in public is necessary, and in my opinion indiscreet breastfeeding is nothing more than exhibitionism.
It's really quite simple. Some can, some can't, Some choose to, some chose not to. Either way mothers and children need support no matter how they are fed. They dont need lectured
Both side deserve the right to feed how they want and as long as women are giving the information and the option of which to choose then no-one has any right to say they are right or wrong in their choice, who are we to do so!
If you want to ram the information down the throats of others and tell them how bad a mother they are if they dont breastfeed shouldnt be surprised that it will get thrown back at them at twice the speed and told where to shove it [lol] cause you do not know the curcumtances of evey women to know why the didn't breastfeed.
I think some of the lecturing has been patronising to you women as most know the benifits of breasts milk and everything surrounding it and if they choose not to, then theres always someone ready to lecture them.
I support the right to choose many things, but it doesnt mean we will do them. support and advice(not lectures) should always be there to guide us.
Your desire for every woman to breast feed regardless of the mother's health, eating habits, smoking, drinking, or drug activity is reckless. The mothers' level of maturity, sense of responsibilty and commitment vary greatly and those factors are very important when breastfeeding. I am glad there are health visitors who can evaluate objectively and advise on the more appropriate method. I would hope they would consider breastfeeding as the first option but there are clearly some babies who should be bottle fed.
Hi Margaret,
I had everything I needed to breastfeed - until my HV came and told me otherwise... :roll:
Luckily for my children, I found organisations such as La Leche League that had volunteer breastfeeding mums who were trained as counsellors - they just gave me the information and support I needed - not advice. Strengthened by the facts and by having the weight of an internationally recognised breastfeeding specialist team behind me, I ignored my HV, and went on to enjoy many years of breastfeeding all my children, both in public and in private, in baby-grows and in shoes.;)
I also trained to become one of those hundreds of counsellors who offer information and support - not advice - (only to those who ask for it) and I helped many hundreds of women who had been repeatedly told by their health professionals that they "couldn't" or "shouldn't" breastfeed. The vast majority of those women could breastfeed and still wanted to, so of course I helped them to do what was right for them and their babies - often being forced to completely contradict shocking mis-information given by their health professionals by providing, as Sun-Circle has, the internationally accepted, accurate, published facts rather than predjudiced half-informed opinions.
I'm way past that stage of my life now and but I still tire of seeing successfully breastfeeding mothers continuing to fail because of opinionated, advice-giving health professionals. And so I no longer adhere to the strict code of conduct that polite, efficient, accepting, tolerant, hard-working volunteer counsellors do and now I just say it as it is.
Sun Circle is right that it's time to stop talking about the benefits of breastfeeding and become much more open to accepting the risks of formula, before it's too late. You are worried about hurting people's feelings - believe me, so am I - but imagine how hurt they would be to discover that they made one of the most important decisions of their lives without all the facts?
Breast is Best, it always has been and it always will be, whatever you think or whatever you say, whatever I think or whatever I say. Nature knows best and we can't change that with our words, thank goodness!
You'll be relieved to hear that I'm going away for a couple of weeks, so I won't be bothering you with any more "propaganda" and I cordially invite you to have and greatly enjoy the last word - I think it really is time to draw this thread to a close because, sadly, we never will agree. It's been a pleasure to get to know you better, Margaret, & I'm sure we'll meet again!
It's also been a great pleasure to make the acquaintance of Sun-Circle and discover her locally available expertise. She's a delightful find - a valuable resource to Caithness which, I'm sure, many breastfeeding mothers will be grateful for in months and years to come.
Oh, and by the way, have you all signed the petition!;)
Tootler x
Below are just a few sources for the information I base my opinions on. I've only put down sources for diabetes, since I don't want to waste my time unless you are seriously interested. I'd be happy to quote sources for any other particular areas of research you want to know about.
If you are genuinely interested, then I suggest you contact La Leche League International who publish a quarterly summary of all the breastfeeding research published by the medical profession in that quarter. The most up to date research is summarised and full references given. Not all the research is in favour of breastfeeding. Sometimes conclusions are neutral and some studies can be inconclusive. So don't even try to use the argument that La Leche League are breastfeeding zealots with mafia links that only promote research supporting their cause. They list ALL the medical research published, and the vast majority of research backs up the fact that breast is best.
I apologise that most of these references are in medical journals which are probably not available on the web. I have to point out that I am just a mum, not a scientist or a medical professional, so I leave the interpretation of these studies to the professionals and accept that their conclusions are accurate.
If the government medical advisors agree with them, and the UNICEF medical advisors agree and the World Health Organisation accepts them, then who am I to disagree with them?
I was not at all surprised to see the quotes you have made. If seen similar stuff myself on the web. Anyone can post anything on the internet, with no medical background, qualifications, who are not recognised as being an authority in their field. I even saw one website that promoted unpasturised cows milk as better than any infant formula or breastmilk (subsidised by dairy farmers in the USA!) So you'll forgive me if I do not jump to agree with anything I see on the Web unless it is backed up by specific medical references, such as the ones that are used by UNICEF, WHO and other well-known health organisations.
Here are just a few references for my diabetes argument, but they are but a drop in the ocean, new studies are being published monthly on all sorts of breastfeeding topics and I trust the conclusions drawn by recognised health authorities, since I know I could never hope to understand the medicine involved.
Studies that have shown that formula fed infants are more at risk of developing diabetes in later life than breastfed infants.
Karjalainen, J. et al. A bovine albumin peptide as a possible trigger of insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus. New England Journal of Medicine 1992; 327(5):302-07
Metcalf M. et al. Family characteristics and insulin dependent diabetes. Archive of Diseases in Childhood (The journal of the Royal College of Pediatrics and Child Health) 1992; 67(6);731-36
Virtanen, S. et al Infant Feeding in Finnish children < 7 years of age with newly diagnosed IDDM Diabetes Care 1991: 14(5): 415-17
The evidence is overwhelming. As I said before, governments worldwide accept that breast is best, UNICEF accept breast is best, WHO accept that breast is best, for goodness sake, even Nestle and other formula companies accept that breast is best.
Then again, Oddquine, I suppose you might like to publish your own research and prove them all wrong. You are fighting a losing battle with your arguments. What I'd like to know is, why are you so passionate about the subject? How have the breastfeeding zealots wronged you? Do you really not accept the overwhelming medical evidence that formula is a poor subsitute for breastmilk?
Sun Circle
I have no more personal research than you do......but I am as capable of searching the internet.
I'm afraid I'm not as interested that I'll pay to get information from La Leche or anywhere else.
I have cited quotes from the AAP, the US Department of Health, Dr Sydney Spiesel...a professor at Yale University School of Medicine..all of which are pro breastfeeding.
Now to your quotes.........
Karjalainen, J. et al. Cow's milk has been implicated as a possible trigger of the autoimmune response that destroys pancreatic beta cells in genetically susceptible hosts, thus causing diabetes mellitus....no mention of formula at all.
Metcalf M et al Characteristics of family members associated with IDDM in children that might provide pointers to the aetiology of the disease include heavier birth weight, method of infant feeding, the age at onset of IDDM in affected fathers and affected siblings, and the family lifestyle as defined by social class of the father.
Virtanen S et al These observations suggest that short-term breastfeeding and the early introduction of cows' milk-based infant formula predispose young children who are genetically susceptible to Type I diabetes to progressive signs of beta-cell autoimmunity.
None of the above compared like with like, therefore other factors as evidenced in Metcalf et al, may easily have as much if not more relevance than breastfeeding.....and it only appears to apply in those already predisposed to diabetes.
The evidence is not overwhelming...........it is not even beyond a reasonable doubt.
It is nearly all hedged about with suggests, may and possibly....... because in a world population of millions with very different cultures, environments, levels of poverty and living conditions there has never been any study on any of the claims for breastfeeding , either for or against, which has had enough of a varied base and made allowances for other factors to claim any of the conclusions as "facts".
Governments accept breast is best because WHO has said so. And the formula making firms agree because the Governments have said they had to agree in public.
Anyway I am not saying breast is not best.........I am saying that an informed choice is not one which promotes breastfeeding and denigrates formula feeding, particularly by insulting the mothers who choose/have to bottle feed.
An informed choice is being told the unbiased truth about each option and then choosing for oneself.
If those in hospitals advise new mothers of their choices in the way you and tootles have posted on here..then they are not getting information to help them decide, but propaganda for one option.
Sun Circle
04-Jul-08, 20:21
I am in agreement that the optimum milk for babies is human milk provided that:
-mother does not smoke or drink on a regular basis
-mother's diet is a healthy, balanced one, rich in omega-3's, with little to no saturated fats
-mother gets an adequate level of vitamin D
Alcohol and nicotine pass through to breast milk and some studies determined that they affect the amount of breast milk produced. Infants fed exclusively on breast milk from mothers who smoke may need to be given supplemental feeding to insure maximum growth. The motor skills of one year olds who have been subjected regularly to alcohol have been proven to be lacking significantly.
If there is anyone reading this that is currently breastfeeding and smoking, or pregnant smokers who are thinking of breastfeeding, please do not let Margaret's comments put you off.
It is true that alcohol and nicotine pass through to breast milk, and the decision whether to breastfeed will depend on how much you smoke, how much you can cut back and how much you believe that the risks of formula feeding outweigh the risks of nicotine.
Its a really tricky one, but its your decision, so don't let anyone bully you either way.
If you are a breastfeeding smoker, then the best way to prevent nicotine transfer to your baby is:
to smoke away from your baby, outdoors or in a separate room
to smoke straight after a breastfeeding session, to let the nicotine levels in your blood drop before the next feed.
never smoke during a feed, since this is when nicotine levels are highest.
if possible, cut back on the number of cigarettes smoked
consider using nicotine replacement patches which is a safer option than continuing to smoke.
The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) made a change in its recommendations about smoking and breastfeeding in 2001. Their statement at that time stated "One study reported that, among women who continue to smoke throughout breastfeeding, the incidence of acute respiratory illness is decreased among their infants, compared with infants of mothers who bottle fed. It may be that breastfeeding and smoking is less detrimental to the child than bottle feeding and smoking. "
The decision is with the mother, and its not an easy one. The following articles have more info if you need it, and these two websites are an excellent source of breastfeeding information for any other concerns you may have about alcohol, diet or drug-use whilst breastfeeding:
http://www.kellymom.com/health/lifestyle/smoking.html
http://www.llli.org/FAQ/smoking.html
Sun Circle
I'm afraid, OddQuine, I don't fully understand this quote you've given. Can you put my mind at rest and explain exactly what are "anthropometric indices"?
I've a feeling that it might mean that breastfed toddlers are lean and healthy, the way nature intended, whereas formula-fed toddlers are fatter. Is that the case?
Thanks,
Sun Circle
Anthropometry is the measurement of certain parameters of the human body. It is frequently used to assess nutritional status in young children and adults
If that is what you want to think, then fine :roll:
..........though I'd have thought that anyone who can read English would understand that Those agencies
asserting the nutritional superiority of breast-feeding have
recently had to deal with the unfortunate experimental
evidence that both parts of the international recommendations,
for early exclusive breast-feeding and prolonged
partial breast-feeding, are associated with growth faltering
relative to relevant controls.
would have termed it undernourished rather than lean.......using the National Centre for Health Statistics/WHO standards.
I do accept it. I want to educate mums-to-be so their decision is informed. If they decide to formula feed I do accept it. Like I said before, it is their decision, and the right to make your own choices is central to our civilised society.
But you are not educating on here...you are hectoring and manipulating dubious statistics.
But I'd like to understand it. Why are you so shy to explain your motives for preferring to formula feed?
Maybe it has to do with the sexualisation of the breast in our society. Some women are disgusted at the thought of breastfeeding their baby. I find that very sad indeed, since it is breastfeeding which has brought our species this far... if we turn our backs on it now, wholeheartedly, and we lose the "art" of breastfeeding, then heaven help us when catastrophe strikes.
There were babies who died in Hurricane Katrina because of lack of access to clean water to make up formula. In the event of a global catastrophe our species will quickly become extinct if we don't know how to breastfeed our babies. Maybe if we get to that stage, it might be for the best!
Sun Circle
I bottle fed because I bottle fed....breastfeeding didn't even cross my mind, and if I could have, I wouldn't have anyway....though that is a decision I have only made since posting on this thread. I initially didn't think I would have, but if having a child now, I definitely wouldn't breastfeed.
Out of interest.....who taught the first breastfeeding woman and baby to breastfeed? :roll:
Sun Circle
04-Jul-08, 20:50
The evidence is not overwhelming...........it is not even beyond a reasonable doubt.
It is nearly all hedged about with suggests, may and possibly....... because in a world population of millions with very different cultures, environments, levels of poverty and living conditions there has never been any study on any of the claims for breastfeeding , either for or against, which has had enough of a varied base and made allowances for other factors to claim any of the conclusions as "facts".
Ah yes, life would be much easier if everything was black and white and we could know for certain what was best... but I'm afraid we live in the complex world of today, where we are only starting to come to grips with mistakes of the past where we have meddled with nature and can't quite work out what's going wrong now because of it...
These days even science is not an exact science. Its really hard being a mum and making decisions for your baby when there is so much information about. As I said before, all we can do as parents is what we feel is best for ourselves and our babies.
Anyway I am not saying breast is not best.........I am saying that an informed choice is not one which promotes breastfeeding and denigrates formula feeding, particularly by insulting the mothers who choose/have to bottle feed.
An informed choice is being told the unbiased truth about each option and then choosing for oneself.
So if you agree that breast is best, Oddquine, the unbiased truth that follows is that artifical formula is second best.
(Actually its not even second best... expressed breast milk from the baby's mother is second best, expressed breast milk from a human milk bank is third best and formula milk is fourth best).
If we knew the unbiased truth about each option that would be fine and dandy. But unfortunately, as a human race, we don't know everything about everything! All we can do is look at the research that has been done so far and try and come to our own conclusions.
By saying that formula milk is the fourth best option, and highlighting evidence that shows that formula milk may pose significant health risks to babies, I do not in any way intend to insult mothers who have chosen to bottle feed.
The evidence is complex. Mothers are bombarded with conflicting information. Breastfeeding is not an easy choice, especially if none of your family or close friends are breastfeeding mums, and you may perhaps encounter health professionals who do not give you the information and support you need to get through those difficult first few weeks.
All I'm trying to do is present information to pregnant mums and then help to support those who decide to breastfeed. Is it such a bad thing?
I think this might be my final post on this thread, unless I'm baited my any more mis-information that needs corrected.
So bye for now, thanks to everyone who has signed the petition and don't forget www.caithnessbreastfriends.org.uk (http://www.caithnessbreastfriends.org.uk) if you know any breastfeeding mums who are looking for information or encouragement.
Kind regards to all that have posted!
Sun Circle
You do realise you have not actually replied to any of the quotes I made which cast doubt on your "facts" and opinions................because simply saying your "facts" are right, and my "facts" are wrong is no reply at all.
And I ask again....who taught the first breastfeeding mother and baby how to do it?
You are not presenting information to pregnant mums.......you are prosyletising on a forum.
And it is a bad thing when you allow no contradictory evidence to spoil a good sermon.
Blimey Oddquine you will be askin next - which came first the chicken or the egg!
Ye gods. What a heated debate.
I'm not signing the petition as I don't see it as a major issue. Can someone tell me what happens if you breastfeed a 7-month old baby in public in England or a 25-month old baby in public in Scotland? Do you get carted off to jail? Does baby go with you?
Either breastfeed said baby or bottle feed it. Baby will do just fine. Don't make such a blasted issue of it.
Have to say I fed my children myself in a country and culture in a time when it was definitely not the norm. I must have had a sad life because I can't remember having to do it much in public. I was probably discreet about it as I would never bare that part of my anatomy in public whether I was breastfeeding or not. I do recall going to a different room to feed my child if non-family members were in the house but that was because I wanted privacy and peace for myself and child.
I remember at the time my doctor saying I should sit quietly to nurse my child and have a drink and a cigarette in order to relax. Oh those were the good old days.............
[quote=Oddquine;403799]
And I ask again....who taught the first breastfeeding mother and baby how to do it? [quote]
That would have been a man that discovered it :lol: (1st thoughts of hmmm whats that and can i eat it)
It is very much like the question of Who 1st found out that milk comes from cows..then it makes you wonder..What were they doing there in the 1st place ;)
[lol]
And I ask again....who taught the first breastfeeding mother and baby how to do it?
It's a silly question, but you have asked it twice...... so here is the answer: Evolution. The mother did not pop into existance with lactating breasts (satement of the obvious!). A mamal intinctively breast feeds. When they do not their off spring dies (except for humans who have got out of touch with instinct and have come up with substitutes).
The only issue I had was that a mother choosing to breast feed could be stopped because of inadequate law making.
The issue I have now is that this thread has turned into a radicalized debate about which is better. To afirm that formula is better than human breast milk ( of a normal healthy mother- not a dug addled alcoholic which the majority of maother are not anyway!) is EXACTLY the same as substituting your 5-a-day vegetables with vitamin and mineral supplements. It only works partially. No chemist in his lab can reproduce or even claim to know all the oligoelements or probably even vitamins that have the beneficial effects that fruit, veg ( and human breast milk) provide.
Evolution (which is ongoing by the way) has made absolutely sure that the best possible milk is produced for any particular mamal. Its a question of survival. Those that got the best start were more likely to survive and produce the next generation with the same advantages.
And as I have already said earlier: I have absolutely no issue at all with the individual choices of mothers. Every one of us has to decide what is best for them as a individual and for their child. As long as both thrive it is no one elses business how, when or for how long the child is fed. BUT it makes no sense to say formula is better than breast milk. An inexperienced mother has to make an informed choice. That information has to include the fact that breast milk is best.
It's a silly question, but you have asked it twice...... so here is the answer: Evolution. The mother did not pop into existance with lactating breasts (satement of the obvious!). A mamal intinctively breast feeds. When they do not their off spring dies (except for humans who have got out of touch with instinct and have come up with substitutes).
The only issue I had was that a mother choosing to breast feed could be stopped because of inadequate law making.
The issue I have now is that this thread has turned into a radicalized debate about which is better. To afirm that formula is better than human breast milk ( of a normal healthy mother- not a dug addled alcoholic which the majority of maother are not anyway!) is EXACTLY the same as substituting your 5-a-day vegetables with vitamin and mineral supplements. It only works partially. No chemist in his lab can reproduce or even claim to know all the oligoelements or probably even vitamins that have the beneficial effects that fruit, veg ( and human breast milk) provide.
Evolution (which is ongoing by the way) has made absolutely sure that the best possible milk is produced for any particular mamal. Its a question of survival. Those that got the best start were more likely to survive and produce the next generation with the same advantages.
And as I have already said earlier: I have absolutely no issue at all with the individual choices of mothers. Every one of us has to decide what is best for them as a individual and for their child. As long as both thrive it is no one elses business how, when or for how long the child is fed. BUT it makes no sense to say formula is better than breast milk. An inexperienced mother has to make an informed choice. That information has to include the fact that breast milk is best.
And how do you make informed choices between formula and breast when much of the propaganda from those who support breastfeeding is misleading.
For example
The pronouncement made by tootles about internal bleeding if formula feeding...........when the research actually cited cow's milk.
The statement made by tootles which said that kernicterus has never been known in breast milk jaundice, when the research says it can and does happen.
And the omission of the fact that much jaundice in newborns goes away on its own without treatment, regardless of how the baby is fed.
The failure to say that much of the illnesses claimed to result from formula feeding are a result of preparing the formula incorrectly or not sterilising bottles adequately, either because of lack of hygiene or lack of good water.
The claim that it prevents obesity in childhood when the research is at the very least contradictory, as the research which "proves" it was done on 9-15 year olds who had different lifestyles to the 3-5 year olds in the research which "disproves" it.
The claim that it helps give children a stronger immune system when the research says that the mother's antibodies are not absorbed into the bloodstream.
The citing of the results of studies taken in the under-developed world to make claims for all cultures with different environments and demographies.
The claim that it reduces diabetes, when the research was inconclusive, a comparison with cow's milk and had other factors as well as infant feeding specifially cited.
A mother does not have to be a drug addled alcoholic to produce breast milk which is not suitable for her child...........all she has to do is not eat properly or take inappropriate medications. In fact, given all the studies which cite cow's milk as a trigger in some ailments..........is a mother eating dairy products producing the best milk for her child?
Yes, breast is best, where possible or wanted, because it is natural...............there is no need to make inflated claims for it........and no need for breast bullies to daemonise formula, which, incidentally, has been approved by all food and drug acts as safe when used properly, and by implication, if not outright, those mothers who bottle feed.
And if a mammal instinctively breastfeeds.....why do we need all those lactation experts to show us the best way to do it?
And if a mammal instinctively breastfeeds.....why do we need all those lactation experts to show us the best way to do it?
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????
I repeat:
A mamal intinctively breast feeds. When they do not their off spring dies (except for humans who have got out of touch with instinct and have come up with substitutes).
Incase I did not make myself absolutely clear: Humans have lost touch with their instincts and have also come up with substitutes to breast feeding. There are 5400 mammal species ( ie: species that among other caracteristics, secrete milk (lactate) to feed their young. 5399 are doing fine ( or would be if humans were not destroying their ecossystems). The one left over (humans) are debating if the other 5399 are out of their evolutionary minds. Righty-oh.....
Yes, breast is best, where possible or wanted, because it is natural...............there is no need to make inflated claims for it........and no need for breast bullies to daemonise formula, which, incidentally, has been approved by all food and drug acts as safe when used properly, and by implication, if not outright, those mothers who bottle feed.
As most here are saying, if you can you are far better to breast feed. If you can't no one should make you feel bad for it.
I know it is a good bit of alliteration but I really do object to the "breast bullies" attitude. It does no one any good.
I know it is a good bit of alliteration but I really do object to the "breast bullies" attitude. It does no one any good.
How about Mammary Militants?
Ash, I'm really sorry to hear your story and I'm pleased it has a happy ending! And special thanks for signing the petition - you are a gem.
Unfortunately it is not the first time I've heard of mums being treated with this kind of disregard. NHS staff do work under incredible pressures due to lack of staffing etc and I would like to hope that the lack of empathy and tact used in this situation was due to those pressures rather than meant in any callous or offhand way. I wish that the NHS had more money to spend on extra staff who would have time to be "on the patient's side". Someone who had time to sit, to listen, to explain... but unfortunately as we all know workers in the NHS don't have that luxury since they are often understaffed and time-pressured.
I'm not making any excuses for them, though. I sincerely wish that you had been treated better and that the problems with pumping and nipple soreness had been addressed, and that breastfeeding had worked out for you.
This is a prime example of where you must not feel guilty AT ALL for formula-feeding. You did what was best for your baby given circumstances outwith your control and I'm glad that she is blossoming. The blame is squarely with the NHS on this one, not with any staff member in particular, I suspect, but with a system that allows this to happen.
I am happy to advocate for anyone who has been mistreated like this - feel free to private mail me and I'll take it up with the NHS Infant Feeding Advisors in Inverness. Unless we highlight the failings of the system it will never change.
Sun Circle
thank for this post, it means alot
Wow! I've had to come up for air twice while catching up on this thread. Strong feelings from both camps. Who would have thought a subject like breastfeeding would have ended in two suspensions? For what it's worth, I say breast is best, no matter where you have to do it.
My own experience of breastfeeding brings back memories that make me cringe. When I became a mother for the first time, I too was adamant I wanted to do it. It wasn't to be. A huge hungry baby, pain, having to be bound up like a "Mummy" (the older Mums amongst us will know what I mean) and my delicate emotional state, swayed me into giving up. At that time hospital staff gave no encouragement to new Mums. Breast fed babies were bottle fed on formula during the night by staff because it caused less disruption. The fact that my son then became ill, due to an intolerance to formula, and had to be put on cow's milk, really made me regret not persevering with the breastfeeding and left me feeling very guilty.
In my opinion breastfeeding is the better alternative, if the Mum can and wants to feed this way. If they don't for any reason, then that is their choice. At the end of the day it is their baby. Unlike others on here, I can't back up my opinion with loads of medical facts. The only proof I have is my own personal experience and two beautiful, healthy grandsons.;)
Wow! I've had to come up for air twice while catching up on this thread. Strong feelings from both camps. Who would have thought a subject like breastfeeding would have ended in two suspensions? For what it's worth, I say breast is best, no matter where you have to do it.
My own experience of breastfeeding brings back memories that make me cringe. When I became a mother for the first time, I too was adamant I wanted to do it. It wasn't to be. A huge hungry baby, pain, having to be bound up like a "Mummy" (the older Mums amongst us will know what I mean) and my delicate emotional state, swayed me into giving up. At that time hospital staff gave no encouragement to new Mums. Breast fed babies were bottle fed on formula during the night by staff because it caused less disruption. The fact that my son then became ill, due to an intolerance to formula, and had to be put on cow's milk, really made me regret not persevering with the breastfeeding and left me feeling very guilty.
In my opinion breastfeeding is the better alternative, if the Mum can and wants to feed this way. If they don't for any reason, then that is their choice. At the end of the day it is their baby. Unlike others on here, I can't back up my opinion with loads of medical facts. The only proof I have is my own personal experience and two beautiful, healthy grandsons.;)
I have to catch up on a few of the newer posts but from what I have read up till now and have commented on, I dont think anyone is denying breast is better. What has got to some people is the manner in which the information is passed to the new mothers.
Let them make an informed choice and support them with that no matter what it is. No-one should be made to feel guilty for not breastfeeding and I have seen alot of the stats and deamonising of the formula but take a moment to think how many wouldnt be here today if it wasnt for this milk. Sometimes nature doesnt allow you to always do whats best and you shouldnt feel guilty for that.
Sun Circle
06-Jul-08, 20:10
My own experience of breastfeeding brings back memories that make me cringe. When I became a mother for the first time, I too was adamant I wanted to do it. It wasn't to be. A huge hungry baby, pain, having to be bound up like a "Mummy" (the older Mums amongst us will know what I mean) and my delicate emotional state, swayed me into giving up. At that time hospital staff gave no encouragement to new Mums. Breast fed babies were bottle fed on formula during the night by staff because it caused less disruption. The fact that my son then became ill, due to an intolerance to formula, and had to be put on cow's milk, really made me regret not persevering with the breastfeeding and left me feeling very guilty.
In my opinion breastfeeding is the better alternative, if the Mum can and wants to feed this way. If they don't for any reason, then that is their choice. At the end of the day it is their baby. Unlike others on here, I can't back up my opinion with loads of medical facts. The only proof I have is my own personal experience and two beautiful, healthy grandsons.;)
Venture, you shouldn't feel guilty at all for what happened to you. Once again, like Ash, the blame lies fairly and squarely with a health system that failed to help and support you through your difficulties. Thankfully there is more support for mums now than there was in those days, and hopefully there will be more support as time goes on.
I'd like to say that things like that don't happen any more (well, the mummy binding certainly doesn't, thank goodness!), but I'm afraid there are still many mums out there who are adamant they want to breastfeed, but then have to give up in the first 6 weeks because of poor advice from health professionals and lack of emotional support from family, friends and community. It can be an emotional rollercoaster for the mums involved, they end up feeling guilty when its not at all their fault... and whenever I hear a story like this I end up feeling angry and even more determined to continue working to improve the support for mums who want to breastfeed.
Slowly things are changing and I'd like to hope that it won't be too many years before everyone who wants to breastfeed is supported through that decision to a happy breastfeeding relationship with their child.
I'm really sorry that there is so much guilt associated with this subject... the breastfeeding zealots like myself don't set out to make any mums feel guilty. Mammary militants... MadPict - you really made me laugh with that one! I think I might have to get a bumper sticker with that for my car!
But seriously, its a really emotive issue and I do apologise if I have offended. I'm currently raising a toddler and know from first hand experience that all mums set out to do the very best they can for their babies, no mum would do any less. There are as many mothering techniques as there are mothers and as long as mother and child are both happy and healthy then I'm happy for them.
Sun Circle
Wow! I've had to come up for air twice while catching up on this thread. Strong feelings from both camps. Who would have thought a subject like breastfeeding would have ended in two suspensions? For what it's worth, I say breast is best, no matter where you have to do it.
My own experience of breastfeeding brings back memories that make me cringe. When I became a mother for the first time, I too was adamant I wanted to do it. It wasn't to be. A huge hungry baby, pain, having to be bound up like a "Mummy" (the older Mums amongst us will know what I mean) and my delicate emotional state, swayed me into giving up. At that time hospital staff gave no encouragement to new Mums. Breast fed babies were bottle fed on formula during the night by staff because it caused less disruption. The fact that my son then became ill, due to an intolerance to formula, and had to be put on cow's milk, really made me regret not persevering with the breastfeeding and left me feeling very guilty.
In my opinion breastfeeding is the better alternative, if the Mum can and wants to feed this way. If they don't for any reason, then that is their choice. At the end of the day it is their baby. Unlike others on here, I can't back up my opinion with loads of medical facts. The only proof I have is my own personal experience and two beautiful, healthy grandsons.;)Two suspensions was quite funny though and you didn't pardon the pun.[lol]
oldmarine
07-Jul-08, 01:11
I surely do not see a problem with breast feeding baby. I was breast fed by my mother 83 years ago. My wife breast fed all of our children and my daughters breast fed all of their children. I saw the same thing with my grand daughters. And now I see that my great grand daughters are breast feeding their children. It's a natural thing to do and the babies are getting wholesome food as a result. I can't understand why anyone would be opposed to something that has been going on since time began. The fact that there have been suspensions due to this subject matter shows a lot needs to be taught on this subject. To you mothers who breast feed your babies, it shows to me that you care for them and I pray that you give them your love and respect as our God has taught us to do.
I surely do not see a problem with breast feeding baby. I was breast fed by my mother 83 years ago. My wife breast fed all of our children and my daughters breast fed all of their children. I saw the same thing with my grand daughters. And now I see that my great grand daughters are breast feeding their children. It's a natural thing to do and the babies are getting wholesome food as a result. I can't understand why anyone would be opposed to something that has been going on since time began. The fact that there have been suspensions due to this subject matter shows a lot needs to be taught on this subject. To you mothers who breast feed your babies, it shows to me that you care for them and I pray that you give them your love and respect as our God has taught us to do.
What suspensions? :confused
oldmarine, your your last comment is the kind of thing which offends people who cannot, or don't want to breastfeed their children for their own reasons.....and reasons which nobody but the person making the choice can know.......because the way you (and others on here) have put it..........the definite implication is that mothers who do not breastfeed do not care for their babies.
What right do you......or does anyone else..........have to sit in judgment over people whose circumstances, beliefs and feelings you do not know?
I'm really sorry that there is so much guilt associated with this subject... the breastfeeding zealots like myself don't set out to make any mums feel guilty.
Sun Circle
You may not set out to, but if you read yours and tootle's posts...........you do manage to do exactly that......and in the process denigrate your agenda by getting up the backs of people who may not yet have made up their minds, but may well refuse to be dictated to by the "holier than thou".
oldmarine
07-Jul-08, 01:56
What suspensions? :confused
oldmarine, your your last comment is the kind of thing which offends people who cannot, or don't want to breastfeed their children for their own reasons.....and reasons which nobody but the person making the choice can know.......because the way you (and others on here) have put it..........the definite implication is that mothers who do not breastfeed do not care for their babies.
What right do you......or does anyone else..........have to sit in judgment over people whose circumstances, beliefs and feelings you do not know?
Oddquine, the suspensions to which I referred were posted on an earlier entry. It was not my intention to offend anyone who does not want to or cannot breastfeed their children. I likewise don't want to imply to those who don't breastfeed that they don't care for their babies. I am certain they love their children as much as anyone else. To those whom may have been offended, I apologise. Oddquine, I likewise apologise to you if I have offended you.
Two suspensions was quite funny though and you didn't pardon the pun.[lol]
It had me tittering as well.
Kevin Milkins
07-Jul-08, 16:14
I once worked for a farmer that told me he could remember being breast fed.
When he was about 5 years old he took poorly and his mother was in milk due to having a new born brother.
His mother put him back on the breast and nursed him back to good health.
LOL we are cool then Oddquine! You are a rare thing on the org - you come back and explain yerself without a slanging match - I thank you! ;)
Having read some of your recent posts Oddquine I am begining to think I was the lucky one on here! As far as I can see most pro breastfeeding posts on here have been giving information. This information can be taken or left by mothers-to-be making their decision whether to breast or bottle feed. Sadly I think that you are the person trying to make breastfeeding mothers uncomfortable for what they do. Do you not think that this thread has run it's course and should be left to fade? All this thread is doing now is probably confusing some poor woman who thought she might give it a read to help her decide.
God help anyone who bases their decisions on the advice given in forums...
Having read some of your recent posts Oddquine I am begining to think I was the lucky one on here! As far as I can see most pro breastfeeding posts on here have been giving information. This information can be taken or left by mothers-to-be making their decision whether to breast or bottle feed. Sadly I think that you are the person trying to make breastfeeding mothers uncomfortable for what they do.
I agree with what you are saying and have pointed out my discomfort at some of the terms used for those who breastfeed.
Having read some of your recent posts Oddquine I am begining to think I was the lucky one on here! As far as I can see most pro breastfeeding posts on here have been giving information. This information can be taken or left by mothers-to-be making their decision whether to breast or bottle feed. Sadly I think that you are the person trying to make breastfeeding mothers uncomfortable for what they do. Do you not think that this thread has run it's course and should be left to fade? All this thread is doing now is probably confusing some poor woman who thought she might give it a read to help her decide.
Selective and misleading information, though, wifie.
There should be no need to lie and denigrate formula (and formula feeding mothers) to make a point...I noticed no posts which said if wanted and possible, breast is not best to warrant all the "information".
Did you?
I agree with what you are saying and have pointed out my discomfort at some of the terms used for those who breastfeed.
And those terms would be?
God help anyone who bases their decisions on the advice given in forums...
Bit harsh MP - some poor soul might be glad to check out others' opinions. So why bother with a forum then? I did say "help" not that this thread was the be all and end all.
BTW Oddquine - did I what?
Bit harsh MP - some poor soul might be glad to check out others' opinions. So why bother with a forum then? I did say "help" not that this thread was the be all and end all.
BTW Oddquine - did I what?
Notice any posts which said if wanted and possible, breast is not best..........which, imo would have been the only reason to produce the plethora of "information" and anti-formula remarks produced by Sun Circle and tootles.
Cor blimey Oddquine - breast is best - there does not seem to be an argument on that score - even the people who make the formula agree there. The point is that yes some women can not or will not breastfeed. It is their decision and their's alone. No-one should be made to feel guilty as to how they feed their child as long as the child is healthy and happy.
"I hope you might consider signing this on-line petition to the Prime Minister regarding breastfeeding in public.
We are fortunate in Scotland since Scottish law protects our right to breastfeed a child up to 2 years of age in any public place, however English law is only for babies up to 6 months, so the petition campaigns to increase this age limit."
Above is the original post made by Julia - I think somewhere along the lines this has got lost in the sands of time! Good old Org!
And those terms would be?
See my earlier post #127
Referring to people who believe/know that breastfeeding is best but not right for everyone as "breast bullies" still seems a bit harsh to me.
I did chuckle at MadPict's "Mammary Militants" twist although it did start to conjure Monty Python style images of Mammaries marauding through the jungle in search of prey or those from a certain Woody Allen movie.
See my earlier post #127
Referring to people who believe/know that breastfeeding is best but not right for everyone as "breast bullies" still seems a bit harsh to me.
I did chuckle at MadPict's "Mammary Militants" twist although it did start to conjure Monty Python style images of Mammaries marauding through the jungle in search of prey or those from a certain Woody Allen movie.
So you are saying that the way Sun Circle and tootles put across their points did not amount to verbal bullying with their misinformation to promote breastfeeding?
Then we have different definitions of bullying.
Cor blimey Oddquine - breast is best - there does not seem to be an argument on that score - even the people who make the formula agree there. The point is that yes some women can not or will not breastfeed. It is their decision and their's alone. No-one should be made to feel guilty as to how they feed their child as long as the child is healthy and happy.
So tell Sun Circle and tootles.
"I hope you might consider signing this on-line petition to the Prime Minister regarding breastfeeding in public.
We are fortunate in Scotland since Scottish law protects our right to breastfeed a child up to 2 years of age in any public place, however English law is only for babies up to 6 months, so the petition campaigns to increase this age limit."
Above is the original post made by Julia - I think somewhere along the lines this has got lost in the sands of time! Good old Org!
I know it was...and I gave my opinion, for which I was maligned by some.
I was not aware that anyone had said anything against breastfeeding to prompt the rather insulting tone adopted by those who are rabid advocates of breastfeeding.
And, btw....my daughter breastfed my grandaughter. :roll:
Sun Circle
07-Jul-08, 21:49
So tell Sun Circle and tootles.
I have repeatedly said, in several posts that I've made, that "There are as many mothering techniques as there are mothers and as long as mother and child are both happy and healthy then I'm happy for them."
Could I be any clearer, OddQuine?
By denigrating formula, I am not denigrating mothers who use formula. Formula has saved many a babys' life. For mums who are thinking of using formula as a lifestyle choice I feel it is important that they are given all the information of the risks relative to breastfeeding before deciding. And if they decide to formula-feed having been given that information then I am also very happy for them to mother their babies in their chosen way.
It is really not my intention to insult any mums and I do wish you would stop labelling me as someone who is out to insult.
I was not aware that anyone had said anything against breastfeeding to prompt the rather insulting tone adopted by those who are rabid advocates of breastfeeding.
If you were not aware of saying anything to insult me as a breastfeeding mother, let me remind you that you said:
I was a lazy mother for breastfeeding my toddler in public when he was quite capable of feeding from a cup
I was only breastfeeding a toddler in public to make a politically correct statement rather than to meet the emotional needs of my growing child.
That breastfeeding my toddler in public was akin to urinating in public.
Which you kindly corrected to... breastfeeding my toddler in public was more akin to having sex in public.
Aaach, Oddquine, I was hardly insulted at all!
As for my own "insulting" tone, I really tried very hard throughout all my posts to be as diplomatic as I could and I do believe I have already apologised several times if I have caused any unintended offence.
So, give it a rest, Oddquine!
I think its safe to say that we'll never come to agreement on this topic, so lets agree to disagree and call it a truce!
Sun Circle
So you are saying that the way Sun Circle and tootles put across their points did not amount to verbal bullying with their misinformation to promote breastfeeding?
Then we have different definitions of bullying.
I didn't accuse anyone of bullying, you did.
I have skimmed through their posts and they are rightly passionate about breastfeeding. Sun Circle stated a number of times the best choice is breastfeed but that people should be free to choose and not be ostracised for their choice - I really don't see where the bullying is.
Not to muddy the waters does anyone else remember the scandal with formula companies 10-20 years ago when the offered formula to mothers in poor and famished nations, just long enough for the mild to stop and then they started charging for the formula?
I have repeatedly said, in several posts that I've made, that "There are as many mothering techniques as there are mothers and as long as mother and child are both happy and healthy then I'm happy for them."
Could I be any clearer, OddQuine?
By denigrating formula, I am not denigrating mothers who use formula. Formula has saved many a babys' life. For mums who are thinking of using formula as a lifestyle choice I feel it is important that they are given all the information of the risks relative to breastfeeding before deciding. And if they decide to formula-feed having been given that information then I am also very happy for them to mother their babies in their chosen way.
It is really not my intention to insult any mums and I do wish you would stop labelling me as someone who is out to insult.
Excuse me........but by denigrating formula in the way you do......you DO denigrate the mothers who choose to use formula.
On this forum you are mainly preaching to people who are already parents....and not all of whom could or chose to breast feed.
Do you really think your disparaging remarks don't offend?
If you were not aware of saying anything to insult me as a breastfeeding mother, let me remind you that you said:
I was a lazy mother for breastfeeding my toddler in public when he was quite capable of feeding from a cup
I didn't actually.........I said there was no NEED to breastfeed in public if he was drinking from a cup...and any mother who hasn't introduced solid food and a cup by around 12 months was lazy.
Not the same thing at all.
I was only breastfeeding a toddler in public to make a politically correct statement rather than to meet the emotional needs of my growing child.
But if that child can eat solids and drink from a cup....why else would you need to feed him in front of the public? Do breastfeeding mothers not have all the rest of the day to breastfeed in the privacy of their own home?
That breastfeeding my toddler in public was akin to urinating in public.
Can't see a lot of difference between that and comparing formula feeding to cigarette smoking.....can you?
And it wasn't me who said that we are animals.
Which you kindly corrected to... breastfeeding my toddler in public was more akin to having sex in public.
See my reply above.
Aaach, Oddquine, I was hardly insulted at all!
As for my own "insulting" tone, I really tried very hard throughout all my posts to be as diplomatic as I could and I do believe I have already apologised several times if I have caused any unintended offence.
So, give it a rest, Oddquine!
I think its safe to say that we'll never come to agreement on this topic, so lets agree to disagree and call it a truce!
Sun Circle
Bear in mind........if formula were unfit for infant consumption on a daily basis then it wouldn't even be an option.
I guess you weren't insulted because nobody substituted breastfeeding for formula and made the kind of remarks about breastfeeding that you made about formula. ..........
But they are WRONG. It certainly IS a substitute for breastfeeding and a poor substitute at that!
All the "advantages of breastmilk" can equally be seen as "disadvantages" of formula....and that actually means that for thousands of years breastfeeding has provided protection for babies, and the use of formula causes an increased risk of allergy.
Would you be thrilled if someone said that to you about breastfeeding? The subtext being that if you don't use what the zealots say you should be feeding your child you will give them all sorts of diseases (all misinformation and exaggeration, of course).
This is a prime example of where you must not feel guilty AT ALL for breastfeeding.
Why should anyone feel guilty about the way they choose or are obliged to feed their baby? You see........logically, reading that remark..........if you must not feel guilty at all because you are unable to breastfeed..then you should feel guilty if you don't want to breastfeed. Otherwise it would have been an example.....not a prime one.
So if you agree that breast is best, Oddquine, the unbiased truth that follows is that artifical formula is second best.
(Actually its not even second best... expressed breast milk from the baby's mother is second best, expressed breast milk from a human milk bank is third best and formula milk is fourth best).
Well done...........you have now said that mothers formula feeding are giving their babies the fourth best of all options............not even second best......and you are not sitting in judgment?
A pity you don't take heed of your own words...........
Ah yes, life would be much easier if everything was black and white and we could know for certain what was best
You don't...and I don't.........because neither of us have the remotest idea of what other people think, feel or believe...........and verbal bullying is telling them how to think, feel and believe.
You should focus on the benefits of breastfeeding, not compare it to formula.....particularly given the exaggerated claims you make for breastfeeding.
It is easy to say that breastfeeding has X effect, and allow the new mother to make up her own mind, without trashing formula..............because, bear in mind...........some mothers have no other option......so how do you think you make them feel?
My daughter (a nurse, btw) breastfed my No 1 grandaughter, but not my No 1 grandson.....and my daughter-in-law was unable to breastfeed either my no 2 grandson or my no 2 grandaughter.
Funnily enough..........none of them have grown into their teens with any difference among them in illnesses or problems.
For example.......all of my grandchildren have had hearing problems..including the breastfed one.
Now wouldn't you expect my No1 grand-daughter to be much healthier. :roll:
I didn't accuse anyone of bullying, you did.
I have skimmed through their posts and they are rightly passionate about breastfeeding. Sun Circle stated a number of times the best choice is breastfeed but that people should be free to choose and not be ostracised for their choice - I really don't see where the bullying is.
Not to muddy the waters does anyone else remember the scandal with formula companies 10-20 years ago when the offered formula to mothers in poor and famished nations, just long enough for the mild to stop and then they started charging for the formula?
There is a difference between being passionate about breastfeeding, Tristan, and trashing the formula many mothers choose to use or have no choice but to use.
If breastfeeding is so miraculous, there is no need to trash the options.......just honestly extol the virtues of it.
I do, actually...and that was unacceptable.........but that is a subject for another thread.
Margaret M.
08-Jul-08, 05:06
All this thread is doing now is probably confusing some poor woman who thought she might give it a read to help her decide.
Hopefully what the thread will do is provide some balance and encourage whomever is reading it to gather all the information they can and make their decision based on what is right for them. Like most things in life, there are pros and cons for each method. Only the expectant mother and father can evaluate their situation and decide what is best for them and their baby. Others should fully respect their decision and neither judge them nor make them feel inferior because of their choice.
We can trot out endless studies to support any point of view but at the end of the day just how valuable are they? I raised healthy, intelligent, productive, ideal weight children and they were bottle fed. I consider myself healthy, intelligent, productive and I try to stay close to ideal weight and I was breastfed. Comparing family members, (everyone from siblings to grandchildren) who were breast fed to those who have been bottle fed, I find that those whom were breast fed are no healthier or slimmer than those given formula.
What this thread does show is that those whom wish to breastfeed may not get the support they need and that is unfortunate. It boggles the mind that something so natural is so difficult/too painful for many. Those whom support breastfeeding mothers should not demonize formula in the process. Efforts to breast feed may fail and parents should not feel like they are doing something horrible to their baby if they have to switch to formula.
This entry from a parent center blog sums it up:
Well, as a pediatrician AND a mom…I can comment from 2 perspectives. I was one of those moms who really STRUGGLED with BF. I worked with my ob, my child’s doctor (yes, keep in mind I am a doctor too!!!), and a lactation consultant, and we still struggled. I was crying, he wasn't gaining weight and I felt like a failure as a new mom….BUT, that experience made me realize each mommy has to do what’s right for HER and HER FAMILY. My child did great on formula when i was finally able to accept that was our next step. I will try to BF again with our next child, but I will NOT feel the guilt and shame that i felt before if it doesn’t work. AND in my professional world, I encourage mom’s to breastfeed but I also encourage them to do what’s best for them, in their own specific situation. So…let’s just be the best mommies we can be and not pass judgment on each other.
Hopefully what the thread will do is provide some balance and encourage whomever is reading it to gather all the information they can and make their decision based on what is right for them. Like most things in life, there are pros and cons for each method. Only the expectant mother and father can evaluate their situation and decide what is best for them and their baby. Others should fully respect their decision and neither judge them nor make them feel inferior because of their choice.
We can trot out endless studies to support any point of view but at the end of the day just how valuable are they? I raised healthy, intelligent, productive, ideal weight children and they were bottle fed. I consider myself healthy, intelligent, productive and I try to stay close to ideal weight and I was breastfed. Comparing family members, (everyone from siblings to grandchildren) who were breast fed to those who have been bottle fed, I find that those whom were breast fed are no healthier or slimmer than those given formula.
What this thread does show is that those whom wish to breastfeed may not get the support they need and that is unfortunate. It boggles the mind that something so natural is so difficult/too painful for many. Those whom support breastfeeding mothers should not demonize formula in the process. Efforts to breast feed may fail and parents should not feel like they are doing something horrible to their baby if they have to switch to formula.
This entry from a parent center blog sums it up:
Well, as a pediatrician AND a mom…I can comment from 2 perspectives. I was one of those moms who really STRUGGLED with BF. I worked with my ob, my child’s doctor (yes, keep in mind I am a doctor too!!!), and a lactation consultant, and we still struggled. I was crying, he wasn't gaining weight and I felt like a failure as a new mom….BUT, that experience made me realize each mommy has to do what’s right for HER and HER FAMILY. My child did great on formula when i was finally able to accept that was our next step. I will try to BF again with our next child, but I will NOT feel the guilt and shame that i felt before if it doesn’t work. AND in my professional world, I encourage mom’s to breastfeed but I also encourage them to do what’s best for them, in their own specific situation. So…let’s just be the best mommies we can be and not pass judgment on each other.
Very well said
At a risk of continuing this thread - I agree with tigger! Margaret M has nailed it - thank you!
I think that breastfeeding is a personal choice by mums and dont think any mum should be stopped from feeding their children when out be it breastfeeding, formula, bottle or boob!
I chose to breastfeed my 2 and only stopped feeding Lauren when she was 16 months old but at that stage I was only feeding her in the morning and last thing at night so feeding in public was not an issue.
It was bloody hard to get breastfeeding going in the early days with Lauren and I really struggled so I can see why many mums give up and i dont blame them.
At the end of the day how you feed your baby is your choice and all mothers should get the same support when out and about.
Some establishments dont have facilitys for warming bottles and dont provide hot water which gives the formula feeding mums a hassle in warming up their babys feed.
But I do think 6 months is a bit early to have as the cut off age as at that age babies are just supposed to be starting the weaning process and should be getting solids in supplement to their milk feeds not instead of them.
In my opinion I think the law up here is better where you can feed until 2 years old is better (most mothers will have stopped by then )
but the law in England does not go far enough and the age needs to extended.
We are animals Oddquine, why would you find that offensive?:lol:
We are animals Oddquine, why would you find that offensive?:lol:
I don't find it offensive......but given that we are all animals.....why would anyone get offended by discussing the social acceptability of natural animal actions in public. :confused
I don't find it offensive......but given that we are all animals.....why would anyone get offended by discussing the social acceptability of natural animal actions in public. :confusedI see, you mean social acceptability of certain animal behaviors like urination anywhere you need to, sex in the city, Mmm. Extreme analogies but I get your point.
stromalassy
10-Jul-08, 20:02
i've signed petition, it makes me angry that mothers who choose to breast feed there babies are made to feel like lepers, god gave us women breasts to feed our young so that's what they should be used for, as someone stated previously, it's okay for men to ogle page 3 in the sun or babes on the beach but when it comes to feeding, a lot of men(and women) are disgusted. Beats me.
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.