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TBH
24-Jun-08, 22:25
Just wondered seeing as they are using kids as slave labour to give us what we want, how many, knowing the facts now will boycott their company?

MadPict
24-Jun-08, 22:28
Hard to do these days but I try to check the "Made in..." labels of stuff I buy - it's not just Primark, GAP have been guilty of this too...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2004/may/13/7

And 3 years later -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7066019.stm

How many other High Street names are indirectly employing kids?

TBH
24-Jun-08, 22:32
Hard to do these days but I try to check the "Made in..." labels of stuff I buy - it's not just Primark, GAP have been guilty of this too...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2004/may/13/7

How many other High Street names are indirectly employing kids?Makes me sick that they can deny all knowledge and that is it, no repercussions, no investigation.

telfordstar
24-Jun-08, 23:16
Think there prices speak to loudly. With the huge rise in fuel, food, gas, electrcity if we can save our pennies on lets face it good quality clothes then so be it. But this is just my opinion. I didnt want to watch the programme as i am a huge fan of primark for clothes and homeware.

rainbow
24-Jun-08, 23:18
This is a difficult decision to make - I know it is exploitation (especially when child labour is involved), however if we did not buy the clothing the workers would have no job and no wage, so they would starve (there is no welfare state in India, certainly nothing as generous as the welfare state in this country by comparison).

padfoot
24-Jun-08, 23:47
aww thats rubbish never been to primark but really wanted to go not going now and i dont shop i gap too expensive

TBH
24-Jun-08, 23:52
This is a difficult decision to make - I know it is exploitation (especially when child labour is involved), however if we did not buy the clothing the workers would have no job and no wage, so they would starve (there is no welfare state in India, certainly nothing as generous as the welfare state in this country by comparison).What is difficult My friend? You either support Exploitation of childen or you don't?

tigger2u
25-Jun-08, 00:24
lets get real on this. when you buy anything does anyone give too much thought on where they come from or how its made. Just look around your house and see whats made in China and we know their record on human rights. Especially the electronic equipment, toys, a high volume will have been made there.
Do we blame the person who may be on low income who clothes their children as best as they can on Primark clothing or buys them toys from companies that deal with countries that use cheap labour. I know I can't blame that person.
It's easy to go on the moral high ground when you can afford to buy the best of gear that doesnt exploit someone somewhere in the world and lets be honest is there a company that doesnt try to exploit their workers to get the protuct out as cheap as they can ?

I agree that something as to be done, I don't think anyone will disagree with that, so put pressure on the companies yes, on the shareholders yes, political pressure yes, make them take responsability but you can't judge someone for buying affordable clothes.
Shame on those that judge so easily on people that maybe aren't as well off to be on that moral high ground. There are so many adults & children here in Scotland who are warm in these clothes, that can't afford to be so policical.

Thats my rant over with lol

Oddquine
25-Jun-08, 00:40
So there has been a PC reaction to the use of child labour to produce Primark clothing.

Will all those who are being holier than thou donate to the upkeep of the families who will not be able to live without the income those children bring in?

The fact that Primark have been forced by the PC brigade to stop the use of factories which use child labour is not going to mean that the adult labour is going to get a wage they can live on...........all it will do is reduce the family income to levels which will mean even more poverty without the wages of the children.

It is about time we in the "enlightened" west remembered how long it took us to become enlightened, and stopped using our expectations to dictate the actions of countries which are just a smidgeon more than third world, and have yet to reach the level of smugness of the "enlightened " west.

On another forum I frequent, someone pointed out that "you may not think it right but some of those children have dependent families who need their pathetic wages if they are going to eat. Poverty in places like India is a very different thing to being `below the poverty line` in this country. So will you go in and buy and benefit from child labour? Or go in and buy and help a child survive? its a Catch-22."



Personally........I'd rather help a child survive...........but that isn't an option now, thanks to the PC brigade.

changilass
25-Jun-08, 00:48
If there was a primark anywhere near then I would most certainly use it.

the_count
25-Jun-08, 00:49
I dan't really care what clothes i buy .. as long as i look good in them lol its ok highlighting just one company that uses child labour overseas but what they fail to say is who else does the same thing. All clothing manufacturers try to produce their clothes as cheaply as possible so child labour abroad is, although morally wrong, very often they way the big manufacturers go :roll:

Anne x
25-Jun-08, 01:06
I totally cringed when I watched this having never purchased anything in Primark tongue in cheek (dont think I am a sequin sparkly person or scrimp material person As I need it all ) hate the store and the staff are so rude

but the bit that got me was at the end when contracts were canx so what happens now to all that children and dependant people do they starve and loose there money they all looked so chuffed to be employed and took a pride in there work and were so good at it

So I suppose once again contradiction where is M&S or Debenhams manufactured China maybe and in what conditions

Oddquine you are so right it is a catch 22

excellent programme but one that makes you think

Cattach
25-Jun-08, 07:14
Just wondered seeing as they are using kids as slave labour to give us what we want, how many, knowing the facts now will boycott their company?

This is a very difficult question and using child labopur should not happen. However, those families involved are now much worse off now with their only source of income disappearing diespie how little it might be. We sgould not just blame the company as surely the government of the country where the child labour is being employed has as big a responsibility in this isuue.

northener
25-Jun-08, 08:31
It's very easy to identify those responsible. Simply go to any retail outlet that sells these goods and point at the people buying there.

Those who worship the great western god of 'shopping' at ridiculously low prices are those who drive this market - no one else.

.

padfoot
25-Jun-08, 08:41
What about Gap then? They are not ridiculously low priced, ridiculously high priced possibly and they have been accused of this too.

Oddquine
25-Jun-08, 09:06
It's very easy to identify those responsible. Simply go to any retail outlet that sells these goods and point at the people buying there.

Those who worship the great western god of 'shopping' at ridiculously low prices are those who drive this market - no one else.

.

Don't talk twaddle. If the goods weren't there they couldn't be bought....so those to blame are the ones who make the profits...........manufacturers, wholesalers and retailers.

porshiepoo
25-Jun-08, 09:15
Have to say I'll be continuing to use Primark:eek: Yes, I know it's child exploitation and yes, it does bother me, however with the cost of living increasing so much nowadays and the fact that clothes last kids a matter of weeks, I'll go wherever has clothes that are cheap and that my kids like!

This sort of subject doesn't just stop at child exploitation by Primark and its ilk. How many of you are aware of the animal fur used in many of our kids toys today? Those poor cats and dogs are skinned alive in China (I've seen exceptionally graphic footage and IMO it's far more disturbing than any sweatshop - not that I've seen on) so that their fur can be used for the entertainment of our kids (among other things).

I'm not suggesting that one outweighs or compensates for the other, I'm just pointing out that Primark and animal skinning are but two of the horrors of todays world, unfortunately there are many many more, they just don't make the headlines.

I have to admit to being more of an animal rights campaigner than human rights! :eek: Make of that what you will.

Angela
25-Jun-08, 09:21
The prices do rather speak for themselves. There's no Primark near me, I've only once been in one, everything was at such a giveaway price so you felt you might as well buy something even if you didn't need it.

India and China are developing economies in much the same way that this country was in the 19th century when working people left the land and moved to the cities. We too used child labour in factories, wee boys were sent up chimneys, even when education was made compulsory it stopped at 13. It took a few brave enlightened souls (or as some would see them, 'do-gooders') to start moving public opinion forward and improve children's lives.

I would be very unhappy to think that I was knowingly buying something made by a child under sweatshop conditions being paid a pittance. I'd find it hard to salve my conscience by telling myself the child's family needed the money. I'm sure they do -in fact they need MORE money to have a decent life.

Do clothes really need to be quite so cheap? They never used to be! Unless we vote with our feet, nothing will change. If we are willing to pay just a little bit more then shops such as Primark have no excuse not to pay their suppliers more....and the suppliers will have no excuse not to pay their workers more.

TBH
25-Jun-08, 09:28
This is a very difficult question and using child labopur should not happen. However, those families involved are now much worse off now with their only source of income disappearing diespie how little it might be. We sgould not just blame the company as surely the government of the country where the child labour is being employed has as big a responsibility in this isuue.How about if the companies paid the kids a decent wage in the first place, a 'living' wage and not the pittance which is 5 pence per hour?

Rheghead
25-Jun-08, 09:33
How about if the companies paid the kids a decent wage in the first place, a 'living' wage and not the pittance which is 5 pence per hour?

Won't 5p go a lot further in India?:confused

porshiepoo
25-Jun-08, 09:38
How about if the companies paid the kids a decent wage in the first place, a 'living' wage and not the pittance which is 5 pence per hour?


Charity begins at home I'm afraid!
One of the biggest problems this country has is jumping on the bandwagon of atrocities affecting every other country except our own, we can't be a worldwide agony aunt.
Lets get our own problems sorted before we start on those of foreign countries.

With the money worries affecting so many families in this country now, how can anyone expect families here to go without because of what is happening in another country? We have no control over what happens in sweatshops and do not kid yourself, we never will. A few people in this country avoiding the likes of Primark et al, is going to make not one ounce of difference to what happens during the production of these clothes.
Does that make it any less wrong? - No! It's just a sad fact!

joxville
25-Jun-08, 09:44
I've never really thought about where clothes are made, if I see something I like then I buy it, I don't stop and think, hmm-I wonder if this was made using child labour. I have to admit I don't use Primark much, I prefer Next or River Island. Also, as a 43 yr old male I no longer wear spangly tops and sequins anyway.

I reckon, and this is just a guess, that if you go through your house looking at every item, you'll find about 80% of it will have been made abroad, quite possibly using child labour. As a previous poster pointed out, child labour is wrong to us in the 'enlightened' West but taking away what may be the only wage in the house is also wrong.

One other thing- being a naturist clothes haven't been too important in my life, I've never been into 'fashions'.

porshiepoo
25-Jun-08, 09:49
I've never really thought about where clothes are made, if I see something I like then I buy it, I don't stop and think, hmm-I wonder if this was made using child labour. I have to admit I don't use Primark much, I prefer Next or River Island. Also, as a 43 yr old male I no longer wear spangly tops and sequins anyway.

I reckon, and this is just a guess, that if you go through your house looking at every item, you'll find about 80% of it will have been made abroad, quite possibly using child labour. As a previous poster pointed out, child labour is wrong to us in the 'enlightened' West but taking away what may be the only wage in the house is also wrong.


Well said!!
Glad to hear you're avoiding the spangly sequinned tops!!! :eek:

TBH
25-Jun-08, 09:56
I've never really thought about where clothes are made, if I see something I like then I buy it, I don't stop and think, hmm-I wonder if this was made using child labour. I have to admit I don't use Primark much, I prefer Next or River Island. Also, as a 43 yr old male I no longer wear spangly tops and sequins anyway.

I reckon, and this is just a guess, that if you go through your house looking at every item, you'll find about 80% of it will have been made abroad, quite possibly using child labour. As a previous poster pointed out, child labour is wrong to us in the 'enlightened' West but taking away what may be the only wage in the house is also wrong.Taking away the wage is wrong, increasing it is better don't you think. These companies should be heavily fined with the money going to help these people. They shouldn't be allowed to just run away pleading ignorance.

Rheghead
25-Jun-08, 10:08
All the more reason to buy Fairtrade imho, but others are content to slag it. As it happens, my idea of fashion shopping is being content with what I get at xmas and birthdays and picking the first thing that comes to hand from the wardrobe. Not everyone's approach but it suits me.:o

Angela
25-Jun-08, 10:12
Taking away the wage is wrong, increasing it is better don't you think. These companies should be heavily fined with the money going to help these people. They shouldn't be allowed to just run away pleading ignorance.

Exactly, TBH, well said! Big companies will do what they think they can get away with, unless and until their shoppers tell them otherwise. :(

Supermarkets behave in a similar way with food- it's their suppliers, often farmers, that bear the brunt. Customers may benefit from a cheaper product...but the driving force is always to increase both market share and the company's profits.

padfoot
25-Jun-08, 10:18
Charity begins at home I'm afraid!
One of the biggest problems this country has is jumping on the bandwagon of atrocities affecting every other country except our own, we can't be a worldwide agony aunt.
Lets get our own problems sorted before we start on those of foreign countries.

With the money worries affecting so many families in this country now, how can anyone expect families here to go without because of what is happening in another country? We have no control over what happens in sweatshops and do not kid yourself, we never will. A few people in this country avoiding the likes of Primark et al, is going to make not one ounce of difference to what happens during the production of these clothes.
Does that make it any less wrong? - No! It's just a sad fact!

I have as yet got very little money and still no longer want to shop there, sometimes princpls have to come before saving money pple can make a diff it is not often seen poss cos peple are apathetic but that won't satop me trying

Cattach
25-Jun-08, 11:00
Won't 5p go a lot further in India?:confused

How out of touch are you?! I am afraid all those developing countries are outstripping us in all respects now a days. Rembers the days when even Irelland, Spain, etc. were way behind us in ecomomic development and now we struggle to keep up with them.

Rheghead
25-Jun-08, 11:05
How out of touch are you?! I am afraid all those developing countries are outstripping us in all respects now a days. Rembers the days when even Irelland, Spain, etc. were way behind us in ecomomic development and now we struggle to keep up with them.

It may not be much but it must still go further in India.

Cattach
25-Jun-08, 11:12
It may not be much but it must still go further in India.

Have you been to India - listen to someone who knows.

Rheghead
25-Jun-08, 11:38
Have you been to India - listen to someone who knows.

Everybody who has been says they get much more for their money so long as you go off the tourist traps.

MadPict
25-Jun-08, 11:54
Maybe someone has already made this point but why are these kids of 10 or 11 or 12 years of age working?

They need to be in school or out playing - not stitching 2000 sequins onto a dirt cheap t-shirt or dress....

The government of the country which allows children to be employed as cheap labour need to be brought to book - as well as the companies who knowingly allow their products to be assembled by children.

Yes, wages are so low that families need to send their offspring out to bring in the money to put food on the table. Not so many years ago we were stuffing kids up chimneys and making them crawl under dangerous mill machinery to clear away the cotton fluff.
We have since moved on, so maybe these big western companies should reinvest some of their profits in ensuring that 'their' workers earn a decent enough level of wages that means they don't have have a 'bring your kid to work day' every day...

I have never shopped in Primark (wouldn't even know where my nearest is tbh) and have been fortunate enough not to have to shop to a very tight budget - but sometimes buying cheap clothes is a false economy...

sweetpea
25-Jun-08, 12:19
It won't put me off Primark, totally love their stuff and the majority off it is really well made, washes well, fits well and it's so cheap you can almost call it disposable clothes. If there's something I like I buy it in every colour.

Tilter
25-Jun-08, 13:11
It won't put me off Primark, . . . it's so cheap you can almost call it disposable clothes. If there's something I like I buy it in every colour.

All due respect Sweetpea, but you've put the whole problem in a nutshell, and you're part of the problem.

Not only are you supporting child labour (for which there seem to be arguments for and against here) but you are wasting clothes and therefore wasting energy and resources to make them. The world can't afford it.

I'm not convinced by the economic arguments for cheap clothes. I was brought up to believe, no matter how poor we were, we bought one decent well-made pair of shoes (best we could afford) rather than 3 poor quality rubbishy pairs of shoes because that was wasteful and plus they hurt your feet. I did the same with my children, who are now grown and don't appear to buy any clothing to excess. I suppose the world has moved on since then, and Primark offers quality too. If so, we still need to buy less of it.

SunsetSong
25-Jun-08, 13:27
Yes 5p will go a lot further in India, but not far enough to solve the poverty they are living in.

The general consensus I got from the programme was that bycotting stores like Primark as shown in this instance will make the matter worse as the people including children who were making the clothing would be worse off with cancelled orders etc....instead political pressure should be placed on firms such as Primark to change their way of operating....to make them be fined for example if they are found to be employing children.

I have clothes from Primark and don't intend stopping buying in the future however as a consumer I wouldn't be bothered if I had to pay a couple of quid more for the pleasure. Afterall all we are speaking about in most instances is a couple of quid on some of the items. Besides its US who have generated this situation with our consumer society and demand for cheap throw away fashion.

loobyloo
25-Jun-08, 14:36
5p may go a lot further in India but I would prefer my kids were in school than stitching on beads (work 9 hours per day, get 2p per garment). The programme was very upsetting because instead of a headline, you could actually see the children and learnt their names. I would imagine that Indian parents have the same aspirations for their kids but they can't afford them... I cannot understand the person who goes in to a shop and buys five tops in different colours. Get a life!!!!!
Obviously, you can't change things overnight but neither is it ethical to ignore the problem as long as your wardrobe's bursting at the seams......
I wonder what's going to be left of this planet for future generations, with the amount of waste and short-sightedness (substitute selfishness if you like) that goes on.

northener
25-Jun-08, 14:46
Don't talk twaddle. If the goods weren't there they couldn't be bought....so those to blame are the ones who make the profits...........manufacturers, wholesalers and retailers.

So you are implying that consumers are some sort of hapless victims in all this?

Manufacturers will only put money into something people want, and at a price people want.

It's the same argument whether it's el cheapo (to produce) clothes or food, if the market demands 'throwaway' priced clothing or food - then that is what the manufacturers will (and do) supply.

The problem lies with the consumer (very apt word) having a voracious and unnecessary appetite for goods.
The point was made earlier about 'throwaway' goods - the very idea of which would have been abhorrent to generations who had to make do with relatively little.
Unfortunately we now live in a society that puts little value on goods apart from price. If it's cheap - I want it. Note want, not need.

In my opinion, the majority of people couldn't give a (expletive deleted) about what happens to the welfare of creatures further up the production line - be them human or animal.

We want cheap, we demand cheap and to hell with the morality of it all.

I'm not suprised Western culture and values are looked down upon by the rest of the world.[disgust]

loobyloo
25-Jun-08, 14:53
Agree, one hundred per cent with everything you said. You put it so much better than I could......

The Doctor
25-Jun-08, 15:22
Sadly its not just Primark that do this. :(

hotrod4
25-Jun-08, 15:28
Primark didnt know what was going on with their suppliers so you cant really blame them.
Its great that some people get on their high horse about child labour,its down to that countries government to do something about it. Most of these countries have made kids work for centuries. I am not saying that its right,its just their culture.
So i take it all those that wont now buy Primark will also stop wearing Nike as they have been caught using child labour and paying poor wages to third world countries for years?.looks like its time for all man utd fans to ditch the Man Utd strip as well,because their strips were made using child labour.
Can we all truly say that we know where everything that we buy comes from and who makes it?
I certainly wont stop buying Primark as with finances the way they are more and more people will HAVE to buy as cheap as possible.

Child labour is wrong,but rather than blame companies who UNknowingly use them like Primark, people should target the companies who KNOWINGLY use child Labour and the Governments who support it.

scotsboy
25-Jun-08, 15:36
I wouldn't dream of buying ANYTHING from Primark, not because of Slave labour, but because I am a sartorial snob;)

loobyloo
25-Jun-08, 15:49
Primark didnt know what was going on with their suppliers so you cant really blame them.
Its great that some people get on their high horse about child labour,its down to that countries government to do something about it. Most of these countries have made kids work for centuries. I am not saying that its right,its just their culture.
So i take it all those that wont now buy Primark will also stop wearing Nike as they have been caught using child labour and paying poor wages to third world countries for years?.looks like its time for all man utd fans to ditch the Man Utd strip as well,because their strips were made using child labour.
Can we all truly say that we know where everything that we buy comes from and who makes it?
I certainly wont stop buying Primark as with finances the way they are more and more people will HAVE to buy as cheap as possible.

Child labour is wrong,but rather than blame companies who UNknowingly use them like Primark, people should target the companies who KNOWINGLY use child Labour and the Governments who support it.

I don't believe that Primark didn't know. They were paying the factories such low prices per article that on some lines, they were making a loss. They know perfectly well that factories will outsource to meet Primark's needs, in order to keep their business. Workers in the 'legal' factory were not supposed to work more than 48 hours a week but were in fact, working 66. This factory had recently been inspected, although obviously not very thoroughly. Primark is not an innocent bystander in all this.

wifie
25-Jun-08, 16:40
Wow so many rights and wrongs in this thread - if we don't shop there (I don't btw) then the children starve if we do shop there they work and live in squalor. Consumers have to realise they have the power to change things. Shops like Primark survive because of the greed of people nowadays. Indeed it does seem too that even expensive brands use these sweat shops - I suppose to make even more profit. As a consumer it is hard to know what to do but it seems to me it was time that the companies were taken to task and made to review the manufacturing processes used by their suppliers. To say that they did not know is a poor defence - many reputable companies check out their suppliers and there working conditions. Big business needs to get a conscience.

martin macdonald
25-Jun-08, 17:58
no! no!:eek:

Oddquine
25-Jun-08, 18:34
So you are implying that consumers are some sort of hapless victims in all this?

Manufacturers will only put money into something people want, and at a price people want.

It's the same argument whether it's el cheapo (to produce) clothes or food, if the market demands 'throwaway' priced clothing or food - then that is what the manufacturers will (and do) supply.

The problem lies with the consumer (very apt word) having a voracious and unnecessary appetite for goods.
The point was made earlier about 'throwaway' goods - the very idea of which would have been abhorrent to generations who had to make do with relatively little.
Unfortunately we now live in a society that puts little value on goods apart from price. If it's cheap - I want it. Note want, not need.

In my opinion, the majority of people couldn't give a (expletive deleted) about what happens to the welfare of creatures further up the production line - be them human or animal.

We want cheap, we demand cheap and to hell with the morality of it all.

I'm not suprised Western culture and values are looked down upon by the rest of the world.[disgust]

I don't buy anything I don't need, and certainly not everything I want..........and being on a fixed income, I'm going to be driven more towards the cheap end of the market as the cost of food and heating rises.

But I'm sorry...I can't get outraged because India is a hundred years behind us in our version of "decency".

The problem is one for government action by India.............and perhaps a few native people to make a noise/take a stand as happened in the UK in the 1800s.

I would be more than happy if Indian companies paid their adult workers a decent enough wage so that they could keep their families and school their children...........but as long as the workers are prepared to accept the wages being dished out, and the government does nothing to protect them, there is little difference any action on our part will make.......bar remove the jobs.

George Brims
25-Jun-08, 18:56
First of all, why post a thread entitled "Will you be buying Primark Clothing?" and then have the poll ask (in much smaller type) if you will *boycott* Primark? I wouldn't give much for the accuracy of your poll results.

I have shopped at Primark before. The prices are great, the goods - not so much. I bought a pair of khaki trousers and some socks. The breeks went through 3 or 4 washes only to be discarded (actually recycled via donation to the Sally Army) as they were now several inches shorter. The socks shrunk the first time. They looked like bairns' socks coming out of the machine.

Now as for the child labour issue, this comes up a lot with American companies. It's always the same response, "Oh we were buying through intermediate suppliers, so we didn't know". However US law (as well as good business ethics) requires companies to do their homework and make sure they go all the way to the source factory and check on working conditions. The latest one was Victoria's Secret, who it turned out were selling $14 knickers made by people paid just 4 cents per pair, and given just over 3 minutes per pair to perform the task, or else they were liable to be beaten and abused verbally. Of course a couple of weeks later after all the usual excuses are trotted out, everyone forgets. Well, except for some activists who follow such things. They hassle the Dept of Justice to prosecute these companies. They never do, but at least it costs the companies in lawyer money to fight them off. The result is usually improved conditions for the workers.

scorrie
25-Jun-08, 19:40
I would be more than happy if Indian companies paid their adult workers a decent enough wage so that they could keep their families and school their children...........but as long as the workers are prepared to accept the wages being dished out, and the government does nothing to protect them, there is little difference any action on our part will make.......bar remove the jobs.

Wages have been rising in India for some time now:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7282983.stm

Of course it is all relative to the rate of inflation. Not much point having twice the wage if everything costs twice as much as before.

I have never bought anything from Primark and I have known for some time that they were using child labour. I don't believe for one second that they didn't know about it and I assume they think that our heads button up at the back. Primark are only one of many companies at the same carry on. It is RARE for there to be any ethics in business. I know that I can't point the finger at Primark without putting my own house/lifestyle in order first.

I am more of a Joe Browns man myself and always wait for the sales. I don't know where THEY make their clothes and, frankly, I haven't got the time to trace the origin of every garment I wear and everything that I consume. Probably just as well, as I think there would be little choice if I had to stick to items that allowed me to go about daily life with a clear conscience.

northener
25-Jun-08, 19:55
I don't buy anything I don't need, and certainly not everything I want..........and being on a fixed income, I'm going to be driven more towards the cheap end of the market as the cost of food and heating rises.

But I'm sorry...I can't get outraged because India is a hundred years behind us in our version of "decency".

The problem is one for government action by India.............and perhaps a few native people to make a noise/take a stand as happened in the UK in the 1800s.

I would be more than happy if Indian companies paid their adult workers a decent enough wage so that they could keep their families and school their children...........but as long as the workers are prepared to accept the wages being dished out, and the government does nothing to protect them, there is little difference any action on our part will make.......bar remove the jobs.

Just to clarify, Oddquine. My post was aimed at the 'must have' mindset we have in the West when it comes to buying goods. Which is what create sthe demand in the first place.
Your points are very valid and I actually agree with you.

'Child labour' is a relative concept. A fourteen year old working in a factory in the UK at present would cause raised hands in horror across the nation, yet in my grandfathers time it was fairly commonplace.

Taking the issue of child labour at face value - we (or some of us, rightly or wrongly) are concerned about the effects this will have on the child. So what's the difference between a child working at a loom with their family and another child herding cattle for the family?

We seek to stop one, yet only the most witless ejit (bring 'em on) would say we should ban a Masai boy from herding cattle for his family. Laughably enough in some instances the former is a damn sight safer than the latter. Not many weavers get stalked by Hyenas or chased by Elephant!:eek:
.

SNOWDOG
25-Jun-08, 20:37
I never have or ever will buy anything from a Primark store. Dont want to sound snobby, but its the shoddiest tat you ever saw! Just my opinion of course!

Anne x
25-Jun-08, 20:58
Today I was in the company of several women the subject of Primark came up 2 of them buy Primark, New Look etc clothes for there hols for themselves husbands and kids then dispose of them on return and purchase new for next holiday one of the the others goes to Turkey and buys up bargains of designer copies so where do they arise who makes the copies

I am getting old and was brought up quality over quantity maybe thats how I trot out the same outfits year in year out as our summer never justifies wear and they are still like new and not dated

we are in a selfish throwaway society with no regard for workers on other continents earning a pittance it just worries me what will happen to the Children filmed for panorama and what will they live on now

scorrie
26-Jun-08, 12:45
I was thinking to myself how long ago I heard about Primark being unethical. I found the following link and was surprised to realise it was as long ago as the end of 2005:-

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/primark-is-named-as-least-ethical-clothes-shop-518600.html

Primark played it down then and no surprises that they claim to have known nothing of what was going on very recently.

The way I see it, they have had more than two years to address the concerns and it is surely not asking too much to have some people based in the countries where they have workers, in order that they can check whether unacceptable working practices are taking place.

hotrod4
26-Jun-08, 13:14
I still love shopping in Primark and wont stop because its unethical.
Maybe I am being selfish but I care more about my family than I do for someone in India's family. May sound heartless but the way the world is going financially its the only way forward.
No-one on hear can TRULY say that they have never worn "unethical " clothing as unless you stood in the factory and watched them make it you will never know!

I am actually thinking of buying more from Primark as I cant afford to keep buying G-star and Firetrap that i love because I can no longer afford it with inflation etc.

Primark rocks!!

justine
26-Jun-08, 13:36
I would love it if we could get a primark up here..They are good value for money but beware, there underwear can cause Toxic Shock Syndrome..:eek:

Although as most products we use these days are from china,Taiwan and i bet they are done from child labour. We all use items made from child labour from one country or another, just these have not been exposed yet..Make sure you dont all start boycotting other items and shops because of the reports of child labour..We were no better in he victorian child factories and life will continue and these kids will still get paid no matter how little and they work from home not sweat camps..[disgust].

TBH
26-Jun-08, 13:49
As long as we have cheap clothes who needs morals.:roll:

sweetpea
26-Jun-08, 13:51
I still love shopping in Primark and wont stop because its unethical.
Maybe I am being selfish but I care more about my family than I do for someone in India's family. May sound heartless but the way the world is going financially its the only way forward.
No-one on hear can TRULY say that they have never worn "unethical " clothing as unless you stood in the factory and watched them make it you will never know!

I am actually thinking of buying more from Primark as I cant afford to keep buying G-star and Firetrap that i love because I can no longer afford it with inflation etc.

Primark rocks!!

Well said! In my experience some of the clothes in Primark are better cut, hang better and wash better than brand names. And what I spend my money on is of no business of anyone on here.

TBH
26-Jun-08, 14:03
Well said! In my experience some of the clothes in Primark are better cut, hang better and wash better than brand names. And what I spend my money on is of no business of anyone on here.You can have a gang of Indian children making the latest Primark 'fashions' in your back garden but I still reserve the right to start a thread which may make some people think twice about giving these companies an outlet for the products of their slave labour.

sweetpea
26-Jun-08, 14:25
You can have a gang of Indian children making the latest Primark 'fashions' in your back garden but I still reserve the right to start a thread which may make some people think twice about giving these companies an outlet for the products of their slave labour.

Feel free to do what you like TBH I couldn't care less! You have your opinion and me mine that's why it's a forum

TBH
26-Jun-08, 14:32
Feel free to do what you like TBH I couldn't care less! You have your opinion and me mine that's why it's a forumPrecisely.;)

wifie
26-Jun-08, 15:05
Annex you are so right we do live in a selfish throw away society! (This extends to food waste as well!) TBH indeed it is the morals we need not the cheap clothes!

hotrod4
26-Jun-08, 15:55
You can have a gang of Indian children making the latest Primark 'fashions' in your back garden but I still reserve the right to start a thread which may make some people think twice about giving these companies an outlet for the products of their slave labour.

I have thought twice about it and...............gonna buy even more now as the publicty that Primark are getting on here will encourage more shoppers and they might put the prices up,so better be quick ;)

TBH
26-Jun-08, 16:36
I have thought twice about it and...............gonna buy even more now as the publicty that Primark are getting on here will encourage more shoppers and they might put the prices up,so better be quick ;)I take it you find the fact of children working 80hrs a week for 5 pence an hour humorous.

hotrod4
26-Jun-08, 17:44
I take it you find the fact of children working 80hrs a week for 5 pence an hour humorous.

Not humorous, but hey they make darn good clothes!

Where are their parents?, is India not a country where kids are bought and sold freely,and head for the slums of mombai to make a living.At least they are getting paid and keeping their families afloat,why arent their parents working?

justine
26-Jun-08, 18:00
I agree with you there hotrod..When i was a child i had the fortune of living in India well Nepal, as my parents were military..
I have seen the side of the country many tourists dont see. The poverty, death, disease, and the children thrown out to survive on their own or to make money by selling themselves..begging for money or food of tourists and any other person who may have a few rupees spare.
As you say these children are living at home, sewing on sequins and ribbons and making money to help feed their families..better than being thrown on the street..They are not made to work all hours of the day, neither are they dying doing what they are asked.

TBH
26-Jun-08, 18:48
Not humorous, but hey they make darn good clothes!

Where are their parents?, is India not a country where kids are bought and sold freely,and head for the slums of mombai to make a living.At least they are getting paid and keeping their families afloat,why arent their parents working?Is that the best answer you can come up with?:roll:

TBH
26-Jun-08, 18:51
I agree with you there hotrod..When i was a child i had the fortune of living in India well Nepal, as my parents were military..
I have seen the side of the country many tourists dont see. The poverty, death, disease, and the children thrown out to survive on their own or to make money by selling themselves..begging for money or food of tourists and any other person who may have a few rupees spare.
As you say these children are living at home, sewing on sequins and ribbons and making money to help feed their families..better than being thrown on the street..They are not made to work all hours of the day, neither are they dying doing what they are asked.You found it fortuitous to live amongst poverty, death and disease, Mmm.

hotrod4
26-Jun-08, 18:54
Is that the best answer you can come up with?:

Good enough for me :)
I have stated my case and I dont need to select qoutes from other people and put my "little one liner" on the end as you so oftenly do!(In fact I am thinking of naming it "TBHing"as it seems to be your favourite pastime;)) Please see your last 3 posts above for example!!

go on qoute me and add your one line-I dare you ;)

TBH
26-Jun-08, 18:59
Good enough for me
I have stated my case and I dont need to select qoutes from other people and put my "little one liner" on the end as you so oftenly do!(In fact I am thinking of naming it "TBHing"as it seems to be your favourite pastime) Please see your last 3 posts above for example!!

go on qoute me and add your one line-I dare you ;)That really gets to you doesn't it.[lol] Well dry your eyes because quoting other peoples posts is part of forum life, just so you will understand which post or person I and others are answering.
Didn't you just quote me or are you being slightly dense? Please see your last three posts.:roll:

justine
26-Jun-08, 18:59
You found it fortuitous to live amongst poverty, death and disease, Mmm.
I do as i was a chlid and it opened my eyes to the real life issues going on around me in the world. If one reads it right i said i had the fortune of living in india. Looking around the country there are riches, and the poor. I have seen both.

TBH
26-Jun-08, 19:02
I do as i was a chlid and it opened my eyes to the real life issues going on around me in the world. If one reads it right i said i had the fortune of living in india. Looking around the country there are riches, and the poor. I have seen both.That's okay Justine, so much poverty stricken people you have seen in your life but you just go ahead supporting their exploitation.
Apologies to HotRod for quoting you Justine, he doesn't like it apparently.

justine
26-Jun-08, 19:06
That's okay Justine, so much poverty stricken people you have seen in your life but you just go ahead supporting their exploitation.
Apologies to HotRod for quoting you Justine, he doesn't like it apparently.


I dont support them, i just know there have been worse situations of child labour than what was predicted in the programme..I cannot change what is happening but if it helps these children with little monies, then they are getting something better than they would without it..or we could all off to inverness and stand outside with signs and see if that helps.

Dont worry about quoting, i will have to learn a few tricks on the multiquote, not quite got that bit yet.

hotrod4
26-Jun-08, 21:18
That really gets to you doesn't it.[lol] Well dry your eyes because quoting other peoples posts is part of forum life, just so you will understand which post or person I and others are answering.
Didn't you just quote me or are you being slightly dense? Please see your last three posts.:roll:

Maybe I have used your qoutes as an answer back to your "one liner".
I have noticed that 99% of your posts are one line.
Why start a thread with one-line and then jump on everyone elses posts? do you not have the capacity to think for yourself? are you so shallow that you get a kick out of "lighting the touchpaper and standing well back"?
There has been enough to-ing and fro-ing between myself and you and I feel it serves no purpose to continue with your mind games, so I will leave this alone and concentrate on the thread in hand.

Primark rocks, yes child labour may have been used but how many companies can you say are Ethical 100% ? They are very few and far between, all you need to do is lookaround your home and you will find many mnay products that may have been made with child labour, how do you know what isnt? Its a very delicate line that I am afraid we may never know the full extent of this, so to conclude I will continue to buy primark.

bekisman
26-Jun-08, 21:58
Come on TBH get into the real world, if these kids weren't doing this, what would you have them do? go on a protest march?

Expect it's a bit of a surprise that 58.11% do not 'care'?

Oddquine
27-Jun-08, 01:06
But TBH doesn't live in the real world.

He actually seems to think that Primark customers boycotting the stores will change anything............whereas, in the real world, the one the Indian children live in, all it will do is lose them their jobs and the means to counteract the poverty which is rife in India.

As far as I can see, the Indian Government has passed various laws re child labour, and the fact that they then ignore these laws is much more to blame for the situation which currently exists than any UK firm.

If there is no will to change a system internally, no amount of pressure from outside will do any more than exacerbate the poverty already being experienced by the Indian workers.

It is easy to sit in a democratic country which has come through its child exploitation issues, and assume that the way we live is the way that everybody should live.............but I'm inclined to think that if you actually asked the overseas workers, in India, or elsewhere, they'd say they'd rather have a job with poor pay and conditions than have no pay at all.

The arrogance of the West never fails to astound me.

wifie
27-Jun-08, 01:46
Surely the Uk firms exploiting these people for huge profit is not helping their situation. They make it easy for the workers in these countries to accept a pittance. If the jobs from western companies did not exist something else would have to take their place.
I do agree though that we in the west do have a huge arrogance about most things. It is kinda like the org we can only see one point of view - our own!

Oddquine
27-Jun-08, 02:29
Surely the Uk firms exploiting these people for huge profit is not helping their situation. They make it easy for the workers in these countries to accept a pittance. If the jobs from western companies did not exist something else would have to take their place.
I do agree though that we in the west do have a huge arrogance about most things. It is kinda like the org we can only see one point of view - our own!

If it wasn't UK companies it would be other ones.

I know it is no excuse to say things like.....if we didn't sell arms to those regimes somebody else would................but it is unhappily a fact.

If UK companies stopped buying from Indian ones, who, in their turn subcontract the work out, it will change nothing. The only result will be that other countries will get the cheap clothing.

I have to say, having looked into it further, that there is going to be a problem in buying clothing anywhere but in Fair Trade/Ethical shops.............because it appears that the price of goods doesn't actually reflect ethicality(is there such a word) but more the level of profit expected.

joxville
27-Jun-08, 03:21
It is kinda like the org we can only see one point of view - our own!

Actually, I can see other's points of view too but they are usually the people that are wrong.[lol]

_Ju_
28-Jun-08, 08:22
.At least they are getting paid and keeping their families afloat,why arent their parents working?

Because the children are cheaper labour.

For what it's worth, the only way the parents will be given the jobs instead of the children is if the people who buy the clothes tell the company that they have to put in controles to stop child labour being used ( and of course, pay more for the same said clothes).

I find using children for a luxury ( YES, I said LUXURY: people have closets full of clothes they hardly use because they are so cheap now. Clothing your family is a necessity. Aquiring clothes to satisfy your need for a huge variety or your joy in shopping is just a luxury.... and lets be honest people, do we really need that blouse because we haven't got anything in quite that shade of pink or with that beading?) horrifying.

About 30 years ago it was in Portugal (and Spain and Italy) that children were taken out of school by their parents to make shoes. Luxury high end market, leather shoes for selling on oxford street type shops. The cost of that were men and women with no education and no prospects. The reason the children were used instead of the parents: cheaper. The shoes were worn and are now a long forgotten luxury, but there are people still paying for them with how their lives turned out.

Systems can be set up to exclude child labour from production, making sure only adults carry out the work. But someone has to pay for it and the companies never will. Would adding a few pence or a pound onto a garment be that much if it were safeguarding children and providing better wages?

hotrod4
28-Jun-08, 14:23
An interesting point is if people boycott the stores what will happen to the children then?
I read an interesting article in the paper(Joan Burnie) who slagged off Primark for pulling out of child labour!! As its the kids that will now suffer. It seesm the stores are damned if they do damned if they dont.
What are the parents doing while the kids are working?
I suppose child labour in a country that doesnt like Female children as they "cost too much" isnt really that absurd.
if there was a law like in GB the kids would Never have to work.
Rather than boycotting stores,its the governments who allow this to happen in their countries that should be put to task.

loobyloo
29-Jun-08, 09:56
Because the children are cheaper labour.

I find using children for a luxury ( YES, I said LUXURY: people have closets full of clothes they hardly use because they are so cheap now. Clothing your family is a necessity. Aquiring clothes to satisfy your need for a huge variety or your joy in shopping is just a luxury.... and lets be honest people, do we really need that blouse because we haven't got anything in quite that shade of pink or with that beading?) horrifying.

About 30 years ago it was in Portugal (and Spain and Italy) that children were taken out of school by their parents to make shoes. Luxury high end market, leather shoes for selling on oxford street type shops. The cost of that were men and women with no education and no prospects. The reason the children were used instead of the parents: cheaper. The shoes were worn and are now a long forgotten luxury, but there are people still paying for them with how their lives turned out.

Systems can be set up to exclude child labour from production, making sure only adults carry out the work. But someone has to pay for it and the companies never will. Would adding a few pence or a pound onto a garment be that much if it were safeguarding children and providing better wages?

That was very well put and thought provoking. Thank you. It also proves that things can change for the better. I think I'll write to Primark. I don't shop there anyway but all the dialogue on here has reiterated that we all have a responsibility to every human being on the planet: not just the ones of the same colour or nationality. I cannot stand cruelty to children. It makes me physically sick. Neither do I care if I've got one t-shirt in my wardrobe, or thirty. I'd rather have one that cost more if it meant that someone got a decent start in life...

_Ju_
29-Jun-08, 15:30
An interesting point is if people boycott the stores what will happen to the children then?
I suppose child labour in a country that doesnt like Female children as they "cost too much" isnt really that absurd.
Rather than boycotting stores,its the governments who allow this to happen in their countries that should be put to task.

That is an easy way to put our conscious at ease: it isn't our fault ( even though we created the market and the thirst for the cheap and disposable); it's the governments of the respective countries that should deal with it. You are right that their governments should be doing something about it, but as long as they have the economical boost and tax revenue and can get away with it, why would they? (Just like ANY government, if the money is coming in easy peasy, why rock the boat........including the UK).
The only influence each of us has is with their feet and wallet on the stores themselves, who will not commit financial suicide by refusing to clean up their act. What will happen with the children if people refused to buy products using child labour? There will be a labour void that will be filled by able bodied adults that will be parents that hopefully earn enough to give their children better lives. Persian/handmade rugs often used/use child labour ( I would say more child enslavement....). A pretty good system was created for monitoring and guaratee that you weren't buying a rug made by children (Rugmark). That can be applied to sweatshops and clothing factories as well.

The choice and responsibility for the use of children in labour lies entirely with each one of us. If we do not create the market then there will not be supply. If we demand safeguards and checks then the market will comply. I don't need primark, but primark definately needs me to survive.

cuddlepop
01-Jul-08, 16:59
In times of prudent financial control I have no choice.
Today I bought 3 pairs of boxers,1 pkt of 5 socks and 3 white tshirts for my son in hospital.
Grand total 10

My finances unfortunatly dictate my principals just now.:(

TBH
01-Jul-08, 22:56
In times of prudent financial control I have no choice.
Today I bought 3 pairs of boxers,1 pkt of 5 socks and 3 white tshirts for my son in hospital.
Grand total 10

My finances unfortunatly dictate my principals just now.:(Nobody's needs to go without in this day and age, pure greed drives us as a people that is all.

sweetpea
01-Jul-08, 23:17
Nobody's needs to go without in this day and age, pure greed drives us as a people that is all.

Or pure;) poverty, one or the other

TBH
01-Jul-08, 23:19
Or pure;) poverty, one or the otherWhere is there poverty in Britain today?

sweetpea
01-Jul-08, 23:21
Where is their poverty in Britain today?

C'mon your having us on now.

TBH
02-Jul-08, 00:24
C'mon your having us on now.No, I am not having you on, with the welfare state there is no need for anyone in Britain to go without unless it's the usual case of the parents spending the money in the pub rather than on what they need.

scorrie
02-Jul-08, 00:56
I don't need primark, but primark definately needs me to survive.

Sorry, but that is simply not true. Millions can abstain but many more millions will be there to fill the coffers of Primark. Most people DON'T care, that is self evident. We tend to live for today and for ourselves.

scorrie
02-Jul-08, 01:07
No, I am not having you on, with the welfare state there is no need for anyone in Britain to go without unless it's the usual case of the parents spending the money in the pub rather than on what they need.

The existence of "Poverty", depends upon how it is defined. Based on current definitions, it is very much present in Britain today.

Rather than the usual one line replies, you would do well to expand your theories and quote evidence to support them.

ps Your Lynyrd Skynyrd lyrics are incorrect. I am assuming you are a simple kind of man.

Oddquine
02-Jul-08, 01:10
As has already been said on this thread........TBH doesn't live in the real world!

TBH
02-Jul-08, 01:45
The existence of "Poverty", depends upon how it is defined. Based on current definitions, it is very much present in Britain today.

Rather than the usual one line replies, you would do well to expand your theories and quote evidence to support them.

ps Your Lynyrd Skynyrd lyrics are incorrect. I am assuming you are a simple kind of man.Evidence to support what, that there is no need for poverty in this welfare state. What are your 'current definitions' of poverty, is it that people need to be able to go down the pub and spend their giro on alcohol rather than feed and clothe their children, that was a two liner Scorrie, God forbid?
My Lynrd Skynrd Lyrics are most definitely correct by the way although I could simplify them for your entertainment pleasure or maybe dig up Ronnie Van Zant to see where I went wrong?


As has already been said on this thread........TBH doesn't live in the real world!Whatever Odduine, your opinion doesn't cut much ice with me anyway as mine does not with you, 'C'est la vie' as they say.
You rally all the support you need for your ramblings by all means, that is your right but supporting the exploitation of child labour because you think it is helping them is a cop-out. Try making a difference no matter how small rather than your apathetic views which play into the hands of these multi-nationals and you may see an improvement in the conditions of these childrens lives

bekisman
02-Jul-08, 10:13
TBH: "My Lynrd Skynrd Lyrics are most definitely correct..."

Not wishing to be pedantic, and purely for reasons of accuracy it's:

My momma told me, when I was young *.
Come sit beside me, **my one and only son.
And listen closely, to what I say *.
And if you do this, it**'ll ***will help you***, some sunny day.

* delete full stop insert comma
** Delete
*** Insert 'will'
**** Insert comma

Oddquine
02-Jul-08, 11:22
Whatever Odduine, your opinion doesn't cut much ice with me anyway as mine does not with you, 'C'est la vie' as they say.
You rally all the support you need for your ramblings by all means, that is your right but supporting the exploitation of child labour because you think it is helping them is a cop-out. Try making a difference no matter how small rather than your apathetic views which play into the hands of these multi-nationals and you may see an improvement in the conditions of these childrens lives

So which brands of clothes do you buy, and which shops do you get them in...........as I assume you have researched them all thoroughly to ensure none of them are ethically unsound. :confused

If you let us know, we can use them too.

TBH
02-Jul-08, 12:44
TBH: "My Lynrd Skynrd Lyrics are most definitely correct..."

Not wishing to be pedantic, and purely for reasons of accuracy it's:

My momma told me, when I was young *.
Come sit beside me, **my one and only son.
And listen closely, to what I say *.
And if you do this, it**'ll ***will help you***, some sunny day.

* delete full stop insert comma
** Delete
*** Insert 'will'
**** Insert commaCheers for that.:lol:

bekisman
02-Jul-08, 13:00
no problem, offshoot of my job;)

scorrie
02-Jul-08, 13:25
Evidence to support what, that there is no need for poverty in this welfare state. What are your 'current definitions' of poverty, is it that people need to be able to go down the pub and spend their giro on alcohol rather than feed and clothe their children, that was a two liner Scorrie, God forbid?
My Lynrd Skynrd Lyrics are most definitely correct by the way although I could simplify them for your entertainment pleasure or maybe dig up Ronnie Van Zant to see where I went wrong?


Evidence that supports your claim that there is no poverty in Britain is what I was looking to see.

If you want to learn more about the definition of poverty you could start here:-

http://oxfamgb.org/ukpp/poverty/thefacts.htm

The real opening lyrics to Simple Man are:-

"Mama told me when I was young
Come sit beside me, my only son
And listen closely to what I say.
And if you do this
It will help you some sunny day"

There is no "My" at the start and no "One and" before "Only Son".

Ronnie would be turning in his gravy!!

ps TWO Ys in both parts of the band name. Leonard Skinner would be turning in HIS gravy ;)

bekisman
02-Jul-08, 13:38
Well someone's got it wrong/right?

*http://www.cowboylyrics.com/tabs/lynyrd-skynyrd/simple-man-4094.html (http://www.cowboylyrics.com/tabs/lynyrd-skynyrd/simple-man-4094.html)

But anyway this is getting away from the thread 57.95% vs.. 40.07%