View Full Version : Bullfighting
Kevin Milkins
17-Jun-08, 16:34
I see in the paper that a bull fighter in Spain was mauld by a bull and tossed in the air and had to be rushed to hospiral after being seriously injured.
He did however manage to put the bulls to there death before leaving for treatment.
I beleive in live and let live and if people get fun out of shooting a grouse or any other blood sport then I tend to let them get on with it.
Bull fighting however I do not think I could stomach, so for the bull that got the man,well done you.
How does fellow Orgers feel about these so called sports?
AfternoonDelight
17-Jun-08, 16:44
We were invited to a bull fight in Madrid but I refused. I cannot condone violence against animals in any form. That is not sport - no sport should involve animals, I can't say I'm even a fan of horse racing.
Humans should find enjoyment in sports that involve themselves - the animals have no say and therfore leave them out of it.
Sick...
nope, can't say i agree with it either....
NickInTheNorth
17-Jun-08, 17:02
Any sport that involves a captive animal is a big NO! in my mind.
Conversely any sport that involves an unfettered wild animal I don't have any problem with.
Disgusting barbaric practice long overdue for total ban in today's modern world.
It always makes me feel a little better when I see the photo of the bull goring the matador up his jacksy....
I agree with everyone else - bull fighting is cruel and should have been banned a long, long, long time ago. Completely inhumane in my opinion! [evil]
I dont understand how anyone gets enjoyment out of any blood "sport". Be that bull fighting, Grouse shooting or angling. I dont believe that they dont feel the tiniest bit of guilt.
Yay for mauled matadors! They deserve all they get for torturing wee bulls!
I don't see how anyone can call bullfighting a sport, and I will never understand how people can watch it.
This is one of the most despicable acts of torture, and I really wish it would be banned or stopped.
I'm sorry, but anyone who takes part in something that involves torturing a poor innocent animal deserves everything they get.
We have no right to treat animals in this way. It's disgusting that this sort of thing still goes on. :mad:
Kevin Milkins
17-Jun-08, 23:42
I was having a chat with the wife in the car earlier about this article in the paper.
Although it seems everybody on this thread aggree it is a nasty sport, wife said " well if no one went to watch it then it would not happen". I suppose it must be pretty popular in Spain.
I don't see how anyone can call bullfighting a sport, and I will never understand how people can watch it.
This is one of the most despicable acts of torture, and I really wish it would be banned or stopped.
I'm sorry, but anyone who takes part in something that involves torturing a poor innocent animal deserves everything they get.
We have no right to treat animals in this way. It's disgusting that this sort of thing still goes on. :mad:
Do you feel the same about angling?
Phoebus_Apollo
18-Jun-08, 00:18
Any type of animal curelty is abhorrent (except earwig squashing - they must surely be an evolutionary mistake?:confused)
I see in the paper that a bull fighter in Spain was mauld by a bull and tossed in the air and had to be rushed to hospiral after being seriously injured.
He did however manage to put the bulls to there death before leaving for treatment.
I beleive in live and let live and if people get fun out of shooting a grouse or any other blood sport then I tend to let them get on with it.
Bull fighting however I do not think I could stomach, so for the bull that got the man,well done you.
How does fellow Orgers feel about these so called sports?
I think bull fighting is a dreadful 'sport'. I am more distressed by it because I think Spain is a wonderful country andthe people are so polite, friendly and generous. I just cannot understand how they can then be so much in favour of this barbaric activity.
AfternoonDelight
18-Jun-08, 16:22
Bull fighting, dog fighting, cockerel fighting, bear baiting -why does any sociey that calls itself civilised involve itself in the torture of animals for "sport" (that word is used in the loosest sense)..?
Something missing in the old grey matter methinks. [disgust]
Do you feel the same about angling?
Well as my hubby would say the fish don't actually feel pain and their brain is the size of a pea so fishing isn't actually cruel.
Personally I consider it cruel especially if the poor thing isn't going to be killed and eaten later. Doing it just for the fun of it I don't feel is right. But that 's just my personal opinion. I'm sure many would disagree with me! :Razz
Do you feel the same about angling?
I feel the same about any 'sport' that causes unnecessary suffering and distress to innocent animals.
I'm not going to apologise for my beliefs, and I stand by them, regardless of what people think of me.
I agree wholeheartedly with KCI. I've always thought angling was cruel, even fish have feelings!
OK.folks 40 years ago when I was very much younger I went to a big bull fight in the middle of Madrid attended by thousands of Spanish afficianados and it is something that I'll never forget. Basically the bull got the matador, not just one but two of them and it all got very messy because once the animal learns not to be distracted by the cape but to go for the man behind it the tables are completely turned.
You could almost touch the fear among the team in the ring until eventually after a very messy effort with no magnificent moves and demonstrations of passing the horns close to the matadors body a new entrant managed to deliver the coup de grace with his sword reaching over the horns to press the point exactly between the shoulder blades and down to the heart.
Bull fighting used to be more popular than football or the theatre in Spain and has been a huge part of their culture for a very long time like fox hunting, beagling and hare courseing is, or was in this country. 40 years ago there was a completely different and more tolerant attitude to "blood sports" and I have to say that I then read all of Hemingway's books and stories that dealt with the world of the matador and the bull ring and, like it or loathe it did give me an insight into their fascinating culture and I have to say have never been to one since.
Why don't we give them back Gibralter if they give up bull fighting?
George Brims
18-Jun-08, 20:19
I read some years ago that a lot of bull rings would go out of business if the tourists in Spain from other countries stopped going to the bull fights. I wonder if this has now happened as attitudes against blood sports have hardened. At least it's more of a sport than some, in that the bull sometimes gets the man. I always find myself applauding the bull.
Kevin Milkins
18-Jun-08, 20:41
OK.folks 40 years ago when I was very much younger I went to a big bull fight in the middle of Madrid attended by thousands of Spanish afficianados and it is something that I'll never forget. Basically the bull got the matador, not just one but two of them and it all got very messy because once the animal learns not to be distracted by the cape but to go for the man behind it the tables are completely turned.
You could almost touch the fear among the team in the ring until eventually after a very messy effort with no magnificent moves and demonstrations of passing the horns close to the matadors body a new entrant managed to deliver the coup de grace with his sword reaching over the horns to press the point exactly between the shoulder blades and down to the heart.
Bull fighting used to be more popular than football or the theatre in Spain and has been a huge part of their culture for a very long time like fox hunting, beagling and hare courseing is, or was in this country. 40 years ago there was a completely different and more tolerant attitude to "blood sports" and I have to say that I then read all of Hemingway's books and stories that dealt with the world of the matador and the bull ring and, like it or loathe it did give me an insight into their fascinating culture and I have to say have never been to one since.
Why don't we give them back Gibralter if they give up bull fighting?
Give them back Gibralter[evil] Never!
We like Gibralter:roll:
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm196/kevinmilkins/01_02_65.jpg
NickInTheNorth
18-Jun-08, 20:45
I agree wholeheartedly with KCI. I've always thought angling was cruel, even fish have feelings!
In what way do mean that fish have feelings?
You can't really compare fishing to Bull "Fighting", it is a different kettle of err, Fish.
Fishing started as a means of providing food and is still the main source of food for many people unable to access other alternatives where they happen to live. Angling is an activity where the fish that happens to be caught is despatched quickly, and most of the fish caught in local rivers and lochs, i.e. trout and salmon, are prized as a food source. That is known as Game Fishing. In England, and other places, they catch fish that are not for eating. This is called Coarse Fishing and competitions are normally decided by the weight of fish caught. The captured fish are placed in a keep net, which allows them to breath normally in the flow of the river. After weighing, they are normally released back into the water. It is not comparable to using an animal's torture and slaughter as a spectacle.
On a more encouraging note, I once saw footage of a Matador on the wrong end of a bull's charge. The cowardly Senor tried to escape over a wall but did not jump high enough. The bull charged in instinctively and, with an aim that Phil "The Power" Taylor would have been proud of, managed to ram home a "Bulls-eye" right up the Matador's sphincter and, let's just say the "Dart" was well stuck into the board ;)
I don't know whether Jim Bowen ever presented the bull with Bully's Special Prize but I heard the Matador went a long time before he was able to tackle All Bran.
My verdict on the Matador's fate? :-
Super, Smashing, Great!!
Kevin Milkins
18-Jun-08, 20:56
You can't really compare fishing to Bull "Fighting", it is a different kettle of err, Fish.
Fishing started as a means of providing food and is still the main source of food for many people unable to access other alternatives where they happen to live. Angling is an activity where the fish that happens to be caught is despatched quickly, and most of the fish caught in local rivers and lochs, i.e. trout and salmon, are prized as a food source. That is known as Game Fishing. In England, and other places, they catch fish that are not for eating. This is called Coarse Fishing and competitions are normally decided by the weight of fish caught. The captured fish are placed in a keep net, which allows them to breath normally in the flow of the river. After weighing, they are normally released back into the water. It is not comparable to using an animal's torture and slaughter as a spectacle.
On a more encouraging note, I once saw footage of a Matador on the wrong end of a bull's charge. The cowardly Senor tried to escape over a wall but did not jump high enough. The bull charged in instinctively and, with an aim that Phil "The Power" Taylor would have been proud of, managed to ram home a "Bulls-eye" right up the Matador's sphincter and, let's just say the "Dart" was well stuck into the board ;)
I don't know whether Jim Bowen ever presented the bull with Bully's Special Prize but I heard the Matador went a long time before he was able to tackle All Bran.
My verdict on the Matador's fate? :-
Super, Smashing, Great!!
I would love to see the link to you tube on that one. Ole:lol:
I would be happy to swap John o Groats for Gibralter. Both occupy a similar end of country location and an influx of Spanish blood to coastal areas in Scotland has a good precedent of course from the remainder of the Armada being washed up on our shores.
And really John o Groats would be no loss and could only be improved with some new residents and all the fun of crossing the border and duty free activies but of course no messing with the local livestock a part from some new knitting patterns on your ganzie.
Kevin Milkins
18-Jun-08, 21:24
I would be happy to swap John o Groats for Gibralter. Both occupy a similar end of country location and an influx of Spanish blood to coastal areas in Scotland has a good precedent of course from the remainder of the Armada being washed up on our shores.
And really John o Groats would be no loss and could only be improved with some new residents and all the fun of crossing the border and duty free activies but of course no messing with the local livestock a part from some new knitting patterns on your ganzie.
I have always found the customs officers at Groat a lot more pleasent than the ones at Gibralter.
You sort of get the impresion in Gibralter that the Spanish officials dont like you:~(
The Spanish could quite easily move from killing the bull after the 'fight' if they claim it would affect tourism. I am sure the spectacle of the matador merely avoiding having a horn suppository would satisfy all those lobster red, sangria'd up tourists - and the bull can trot off to have a nice bale of hay after.
Kevin Milkins
18-Jun-08, 23:23
The Spanish could quite easily move from killing the bull after the 'fight' if they claim it would affect tourism. I am sure the spectacle of the matador merely avoiding having a horn suppository would satisfy all those lobster red, sangria'd up tourists - and the bull can trot off to have a nice bale of hay after.
Now thats what I call a compromise.:D
After weighing, they are normally released back into the water. It is not comparable to using an animal's torture and slaughter as a spectacle.
You think its ok to cause pain (hook in the mouth) and fear of death (asphyxiation) as long as the angler has fun doing it? Why has puppy fishing never caught on? We could keep them in a cage with air to breath then weigh them before letting them on their way terrified and in agony.
Its a strange thing but it seems, in our culture, we dont see fish as a living, feeling animal the way we do with other creatures. There arent many other animals that it would be ok to present whole, head and all on a plate and expect somone to eat it. Could you imagine asking for lamb in a restaraunt and thats what you get, a whole, gutted lamb, head, eyes, arse and all on a big platter.
I have always found the customs officers at Groat a lot more pleasent than the ones at Gibralter.
You sort of get the impresion in Gibralter that the Spanish officials dont like you:~(
Is the groats customs officer that guy who takes pictures of people at the sign and wont let anybody near it to take their own(better)pics as its owned by the lands end company or something? Funny I thought it was part of Caithness!!!
Back to bullfighting-Its a tradition for many years, but I do think its rather cruel, but fantastic entertainment so can see both sides but I do think personally its wrong. Maybe what they should do is put some people from the EU in brussels over there in place of the bulls. It might give them something to do. The matador might not notice,after all one of them is a bull and the others talk a load of bull!!!!
You think its ok to cause pain (hook in the mouth) and fear of death (asphyxiation) as long as the angler has fun doing it? Why has puppy fishing never caught on? We could keep them in a cage with air to breath then weigh them before letting them on their way terrified and in agony.
Its a strange thing but it seems, in our culture, we dont see fish as a living, feeling animal the way we do with other creatures. There arent many other animals that it would be ok to present whole, head and all on a plate and expect somone to eat it. Could you imagine asking for lamb in a restaraunt and thats what you get, a whole, gutted lamb, head, eyes, arse and all on a big platter.
Is this for real or sarcasm?
Surely sarcasm
Do you kill flies?, flush spiders down the sink?
Fish have a very short memory so by the time they have remembered whats just happened ther dead! No problem their then :)
I am thinking of that sketch from "chewin the fat"- c'moan the fish ;)
You think its ok to cause pain (hook in the mouth) and fear of death (asphyxiation) as long as the angler has fun doing it? Why has puppy fishing never caught on? We could keep them in a cage with air to breath then weigh them before letting them on their way terrified and in agony.
Its a strange thing but it seems, in our culture, we dont see fish as a living, feeling animal the way we do with other creatures. There arent many other animals that it would be ok to present whole, head and all on a plate and expect somone to eat it. Could you imagine asking for lamb in a restaraunt and thats what you get, a whole, gutted lamb, head, eyes, arse and all on a big platter.
Think of all the bacteria you are killing when you wash your face and all the dust mites you are crushing to death cruelly in your bed at night. Better not let me hear about you going past a swimming pool without tackling parents about letting their children suffer temporary asphyxiation every time they put their heads underwater. The poor mites must be traumatised (all of them ;) )
I would love to see the link to you tube on that one. Ole:lol:
Not sure if it's on there. Maybe you could search under BullRING incidents ;)
Kevin Milkins
19-Jun-08, 14:29
Not sure if it's on there. Maybe you could search under BullRING incidents ;)
Yer,tried that.
Plenty of jobs going in Birmingham though:D
I agree that bullfighting is cruel but I don't think I'm in any position to criticise it because I eat beef occasionally and bulls don't have a good time in the slaughterhouse either.
Also, I agree with Julia that fish have feelings - they are sentient beings so how can they not feel?
percy toboggan
19-Jun-08, 18:03
My earlier post on this issue has got me in lumber for 'racist' remarks.
I've had another 'infraction'
So.....watch what yer saying about the Spanish...the Chinese...or anyone else.
Perce - hanging by a thread.
p.s not lookin' for sympathy - or to start 'owt...just stating a fact. If you think my future comments on the matter comparatively sterile or uncharacteristically innocuous you'll know why.
northener
19-Jun-08, 20:02
Damn, I missed that post Percy.
No chance of you repeating it - jus' for me?:D
northener
19-Jun-08, 20:04
You think its ok to cause pain (hook in the mouth) and fear of death (asphyxiation) as long as the angler has fun doing it? Why has puppy fishing never caught on? We could keep them in a cage with air to breath then weigh them before letting them on their way terrified and in agony.
Its a strange thing but it seems, in our culture, we dont see fish as a living, feeling animal the way we do with other creatures. There arent many other animals that it would be ok to present whole, head and all on a plate and expect somone to eat it. Could you imagine asking for lamb in a restaraunt and thats what you get, a whole, gutted lamb, head, eyes, arse and all on a big platter.
One polite question for you, Average.
Yes or no answer. No strings attached - simple question.
Are you a Vegan?
.
NickInTheNorth
19-Jun-08, 20:41
I agree wholeheartedly with KCI. I've always thought angling was cruel, even fish have feelings!
In what way do mean that fish have feelings?
Well I see Julia has resisted the temptation of enlightening us regarding fish and feelings.
So a few observations.
If fish have feelings why do they frequently get recaptured? Yes I know for a fact that it happens as I have seen tagged fish recaptured within minutes of release. In once instance the same fish was caught three times in a three hour period.
If they feel pain when "impaled on a hook" why is it that if you don't put any pressure on the line that they will just go about their normal activities.
Why if it is so cruel was it necessary for a misguided scientist to conduct an experiment involving injecting bee venom into a fishes mouth to elicit a "pain response" after failing to elicit the same response simply by sticking sharp probes into them.
It is wrong headed to attribute our human / mammalian feelings to other less highly evolved species. I accept that there are limits to the extent to which we should be able to utilise animals for our pleasure.
But pursuing a free living animal in the name of sport I see absolutely no objection to.
Kevin Milkins
19-Jun-08, 21:21
In what way do mean that fish have feelings?
My mother in law drinks like a fish,she looks like a fish, and she even smells a bit like a fish,
but if you forget her mothers day card she gets very upset.lol
One polite question for you, Average.
Yes or no answer. No strings attached - simple question.
Are you a Vegan?
.
No
But my point was that I dont feel it appropiate for one being to have fun killing or inflicting pain on another.
I have no problem with fishing for food (although I dont like to see thousands of fish gasping for air and slowly dying on the deck of a boat), or with farming as long as animals are well looked after.
Do you not agree that angling for sport is cruel? as is foxhunting, Badger baiting and dog fighting.
To be honest I even think horse racing is pretty cruel. What I dont understand is why they dont just ban everyone from using whips.
So a few observations.
If fish have feelings why do they frequently get recaptured? Yes I know for a fact that it happens as I have seen tagged fish recaptured within minutes of release. In once instance the same fish was caught three times in a three hour period.
So they are stupid, is that an excuse to hurt them?
If they feel pain when "impaled on a hook" why is it that if you don't put any pressure on the line that they will just go about their normal activities..
If there is no pressure on the line there is less pressure on the hook which you have lodged in the mouth, blessed relief possibly
Why if it is so cruel was it necessary for a misguided scientist to conduct an experiment involving injecting bee venom into a fishes mouth to elicit a "pain response" after failing to elicit the same response simply by sticking sharp probes into them..
Are you actually saying that fish feel no pain or suffer no stress while being dragged from the water by a hook in the mouth? How do we know what a fishes pain response is?
It is wrong headed to attribute our human / mammalian feelings to other less highly evolved species. I accept that there are limits to the extent to which we should be able to utilise animals for our pleasure.
How do you measure evolution? Are you saying its ok to pick on creatures you feel are not as smart as you?
But pursuing a free living animal in the name of sport I see absolutely no objection to.
Its not sport to the animal. It is going about its life as normal, it has no choice.
Kevin Milkins
20-Jun-08, 00:09
When I was younger I used to shoot a lot of rabbits although I did eat some of them,I shot foxs because they were classed as vermin, I was never fussy on the idea of breeding pheasants and then driving them onto a gun.As I have got older I feel less inclined to want to stalk an animal and kill it I just enjoy watching them. We all have different opinions it seems on what is right and wrong and I guess none of us are right or wrong ,we are just different
Me too. I used to shoot, fish, snare and even Ferreted a couple of times. At the time I didnt give a second thought to the creature I was killing or the pain i was inflicting. I guess some folk just mature out of things and others dont.
I have no problem with fishing for food
To be honest I even think horse racing is pretty cruel. What I dont understand is why they dont just ban everyone from using whips.
So it is more acceptable to catch the fish and kill it, than it is to catch it and put it back in the water alive. I just wonder if YOU were a fish, which one would you prefer?
Whips are used in horse races to correct the path of the horse as well as to ask him to go faster. Correctly used, the whip will cause little pain to a large animal. It is not like taking an Indiana Jones whip to a puppy for instance. There are rules on the number of times a horse can be hit during a race, there are rules on which part of the horse the whip can be administered to, there are rules on how high the Jockey's arm is allowed to rise before he delivers the whip and there are rules that state that the Jockey has to give his mount time to respond to the whip. Jockeys are not allowed to simply deliver stroke after stroke without waiting to see if the horse will pick up or not. Anyone breaking these rules faces a ban and repeated offences lead to much longer bans under "totting up" rules. Jockeys on a ban cannot earn riding fees or win percentages, so it hits THEM where it hurts, i.e. the wallet. A horse at top speed who veers off line can be dangerous, particularly in big fields. The whip is the most effective means of correcting the horse's path and provides safety for both horses and Jockeys. Race horses are well looked after and they enjoy racing. If you ever see a faller in a jumps race it will almost always continue racing and jumping, clearly enjoying galloping with other horses. I recall a horse called Brown Trix finishing first past the post in the Grand National despite having lost his jockey way earlier in the race.
In a world where there is greater cruelty to children every day and far more heinous abuse of animals, I think we have to tackle the worst offences first. Too often the Grand National is targeted for protests simply because it is advertising for the supposed animal "lovers". Horses usually end up being terrified by the activities of those allegedly trying to help. How many times have we seen Animal Rights people using terrorist tactics on human beings? Telephone threats, letter bombs etc. They even dug up someone's Granny from her grave as a protest!!
In my opinion Angling is a mighty LONG way down the list of Human Crimes and does not need addressing until many more important problems are eliminated first. Let's not leave bears being tortured while we pursue a thoughtful and knowledgeable angler releasing a Perch from a keep-net.
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