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Lord Flasheart
15-Jun-08, 12:36
This was forwarded to me by a friend, makes for interesting reading ..

"Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

Then there are the wolves and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy. Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

Then there are sheepdogs. They live to protect the flock and confront the wolf. If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, therefore a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then ??, A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the unchartered path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.

We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their childrens' schools. But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in the school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a democracy such as ours. Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or stand at the ready in our airports, in uniform and holding a machine gun. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa." Until the wolf shows up, then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door. Look at recent events when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how we felt differently about the Police and military personnel ?? Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog, it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny creature. He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed, right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11th 2001, most of the sheep, that is, the majority of people said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." You want to be able to make a difference. There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population.

There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing of Police officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself. Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his mobile phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When they learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd and the other passengers confronted the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents turned from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

"There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men." - Edmund Burke.

Here is the point I like to emphasize, In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice.

But you are not a creature. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision. If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between.

In the aftermath of recent events the sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. It's ok to be a sheep, but do not kick the sheep dog. Indeed, the sheep dog may just run a little harder, strive to protect a little better and be fully prepared to pay an ultimate price in battle and spirit with the sheep moving from "baa" to "thanks"

So I reckon I am a sheepdog with a little bit of Wolf tendency. But which one are you ??

joxville
15-Jun-08, 12:42
Can I be a tree? I'll just stand back and watch it all.

Moi x
15-Jun-08, 13:56
So I reckon I am a sheepdog with a little bit of Wolf tendency. But which one are you ??I am a sociologist and you're an ex-serviceman. :cool:

I could tell that piece had been written by a military man as soon as I read the first sentence. It was pretty much the same with your first post and indeed a vast number of your posts. Does that worry you? It worries me. Does our education and training have an overbearing effect on our personalities or is it the other way around? I think it's both and they feed on each other to produce a disproportionate effect.

I can't say I've noticed any dead-cert sociologists posting on here, squidge would be my best candidate but she doesn't quite talk the talk. There are a good few more ex-servicemen for sure. Do they stand out to you in the same way?

Moi x

Lord Flasheart
15-Jun-08, 15:29
I am a sociologist and you're an ex-serviceman. :cool:

I could tell that piece had been written by a military man as soon as I read the first sentence. It was pretty much the same with your first post and indeed a vast number of your posts. Does that worry you? It worries me. Does our education and training have an overbearing effect on our personalities or is it the other way around? I think it's both and they feed on each other to produce a disproportionate effect.

I can't say I've noticed any dead-cert sociologists posting on here, squidge would be my best candidate but she doesn't quite talk the talk. There are a good few more ex-servicemen for sure. Do they stand out to you in the same way?

Moi x

I dont know who wrote the article, it was sent to me by a workmate as I am due to speak at a "Team Building" day tomorrow. I just thought it was interesting.

Go on .. you guessed I was ex militairy because my username is a character of a World War 1 pilot who is a little bit risque didnt you ?? .. you Sociologists .. sharp as a tack arent you ??

joxville
15-Jun-08, 15:38
Definition of a Sociologist-one who studies the institutions of human society but doesn't want to be an inmate.:D

Lord Flasheart
15-Jun-08, 15:39
Can I be a tree? I'll just stand back and watch it all.

I wouldnt.

We all know what the Sheepdogs and Wolves use trees for Jox .. ;)

joxville
15-Jun-08, 15:51
I wouldnt.

We all know what the Sheepdogs and Wolves use trees for Jox .. ;)

Okay, I'll be the sky then.

Moi x
15-Jun-08, 16:00
Am I right in assuming you didn't realise it was written by a military man? Surely not? I read it as a military man's thoughtful but rather simple minded assessment of the civilian populace, it came over as an attempt to show why a strong US military is an absolute necessity in the modern world.

There are many versions on the web, some were written pre 9/11 so the one you posted was an adaptation. As usual with these things it's not immediately obvious who wrote the original but there is more of it here (http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm) and the website owner is here (http://www.killology.com/bio.htm). I find this man more interesting than the old retired colonel he quotes.

I guessed you were ex-military because your posts shout it from the rooftops! :D

Moi x

squidge
15-Jun-08, 16:33
I am a sociologist and you're an ex-serviceman. :cool:

I could tell that piece had been written by a military man as soon as I read the first sentence. It was pretty much the same with your first post and indeed a vast number of your posts. Does that worry you? It worries me. Does our education and training have an overbearing effect on our personalities or is it the other way around? I think it's both and they feed on each other to produce a disproportionate effect.

I can't say I've noticed any dead-cert sociologists posting on here, squidge would be my best candidate but she doesn't quite talk the talk. There are a good few more ex-servicemen for sure. Do they stand out to you in the same way?

Moi x

A sociologist eh???? My sociology teacher would be interested to hear that - I failed my A level with a resounding unclassified result. Im neither a sheep, a wolf or a sheepdog. Im just me. I dont know much about farming but it seems to me the Lord Flasheart's post is designed to patronise sheep, condemn wolves and bolster the self righteousness of sheepdogs... Im sure that wolves have their good points and i think he is being really unfair to simply lump them all together as one group without thinking about them as individuals............ooooh Im getting an awful feeling of deja vue.... I htink i need a lie down:Razz

Moi x
15-Jun-08, 16:44
A sociologist eh???? My sociology teacher would be interested to hear that - I failed my A level with a resounding unclassified result.I wasn't too far away though, I was right in that you studied sociology at an early age and some of it will have rubbed off on you even if you didn't end up talking the talk.

Moi x

squidge
15-Jun-08, 16:56
"studied" is probably a bit over egging the pudding to be honest. Taking hte same blank peice of paper into the lesson for the best part of two years cant quite be called studying lol

What i have had is a real dislike of prejudice and unfairness and an and by all accounts i have had that since an early age - far far earlier than 16 which is when i started the fateful sociology course. Even in Primary school i was the same. People interest me - what makes them who they are, why they take the decisions they do but thats about it. Im just me and thats it really - my titles really include. Wife( oooooooooooh i like that one) mother and gobby opinionated "Middle aged" (according to my 18 year old) wifey

Moi x
15-Jun-08, 17:15
Ok, perhaps you didn't really study sociology but I suspect your sociology education, such as it was, and your personality fed off each other to produce the 'just me' you claim to be.

Moi x

Moi x
15-Jun-08, 17:33
Definition of a Sociologist-one who studies the institutions of human society but doesn't want to be an inmate.:DThere's more substance to that than you might think. Many of us do think of ourselves as looking in at humanity from the outside. Sometimes that helps, sometimes it doesn't.

Moi x

Tilter
15-Jun-08, 17:55
well, I don't usually bother reading that kind of stuff but I did skim it.

I'm posting to stand up for wolves. They are cooperative beasts that hunt in packs, taking, after great effort, only what they need to survive as all carnivores do. They are shy, retiring, and are known to adopt orphaned cubs, to say nothing of Romulus and Remus. Sheepdogs sometimes have to be shot because they turn on the sheep. Sheep can and do stand up for themselves and protect their young if they can, especially hill sheep and not park sheep.

So don't pigeon-hole people either.

squidge
15-Jun-08, 19:27
Ok, perhaps you didn't really study sociology but I suspect your sociology education, such as it was, and your personality fed off each other to produce the 'just me' you claim to be.

Moi x

We are all of us products of our experiences but of all of them. The million millions of interactions with people where we learn something, the million million small experiences almost meaningless in themselves, the books and articles we read, the songs we listen too the films and pictures we see and like or dislike. Is there anything we go through in life that doesnt touch us in some way? Mr young would be delighted to see that his sociology teachings are still visible in such a terrible student :lol:... oh of course I should be calling him "mike"!!!

And arent we all somehow a mixture of wolf sheepdog and sheep? Arent all of us sometimes one or sometimes the other? Arent all of us at some time in our life a bit of all of them. Cant sometimes a sheep turn into a wolf and a wolf become a sheepdog and I am quite sure that sheepdogs occasionally have something of the wolf about them.... Thank goodness as human beings we defy lables

helenwyler
15-Jun-08, 20:19
I find this sheep/sheepdog/wolf analogy a bit facile. Compelling on the first read, but not on reflection.

Where's the shepherd in all this?

Sheepdogs (wonderful creatures :)) act at the command and training of the shepherd, who sanctions the honing of their instincts and skills accordance with his/her will.

The shepherd is, of course, a politician. He/she ultimately decides their deployment and scope of tactical operations, tries to calculate the acceptable potential sacrifice of the sheepdogs, and tries to persuade the sheep to buy into it.

The freedom and lives of the sheep (home and foreign) are ultimately decided by the shepherd as much as by the wolf, or the skills of the sheepdog.

Spin the analogy out further, the shepherd's (or his master's) ultimate interest in the sheep is for their wool and flesh.

On a lighter note: ;) http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/bored_sheepdog.jpg

Lord Flasheart
15-Jun-08, 22:09
Am I right in assuming you didn't realise it was written by a military man? Surely not? I read it as a military man's thoughtful but rather simple minded assessment of the civilian populace, it came over as an attempt to show why a strong US military is an absolute necessity in the modern world.

There are many versions on the web, some were written pre 9/11 so the one you posted was an adaptation. As usual with these things it's not immediately obvious who wrote the original but there is more of it here (http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm) and the website owner is here (http://www.killology.com/bio.htm). I find this man more interesting than the old retired colonel he quotes.

I guessed you were ex-military because your posts shout it from the rooftops! :D

Moi x

Moi,

It was an e-mail I got on a Sunday morning from a work colleague while I prepared a presentation for tomorrow. He thought it may help in the context of the talk, I thought it may interest people.

To me a Sociologist is someone with the answers to everyone elses problems except their own. Bottom Line .. they cant teach me anything I cant read in a book for myself.

northener
15-Jun-08, 22:25
I find this sheep/sheepdog/wolf analogy a bit facile. Compelling on the first read, but not on reflection.

Where's the shepherd in all this?

Sheepdogs (wonderful creatures :)) act at the command and training of the shepherd, who sanctions the honing of their instincts and skills accordance with his/her will.

The shepherd is, of course, a politician. He/she ultimately decides their deployment and scope of tactical operations, tries to calculate the acceptable potential sacrifice of the sheepdogs, and tries to persuade the sheep to buy into it.

The freedom and lives of the sheep (home and foreign) are ultimately decided by the shepherd as much as by the wolf, or the skills of the sheepdog.

Spin the analogy out further, the shepherd's (or his master's) ultimate interest in the sheep is for their wool and flesh.

On a lighter note: ;) http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/bored_sheepdog.jpg

So the masses (sheeps) are guided towards their masters' (sheepmeisters) objectives by way of promises (more sheepdogs or better grass) and/or threats of Bad Things (wolves or starvation) if any of the masses (sheeps) don't toe (or hoof) the line.

Human (or sheep) nature never alters......

Me? I'm a Stoat, albeit a very large and fat one.

Sapphire2803
15-Jun-08, 23:08
I am none of the above. I am a stick of rhubarb... Obviously!! :eyes

http://209.85.12.237/3700/97/0/e3768//e3768.gif

joxville
15-Jun-08, 23:58
Where's the shepherd in all this?


Probably away buying drugs.:D

Sapphire2803
16-Jun-08, 00:01
Where's the shepherd in all this?


Probably away buying drugs.:D

More likely away behind a hedge making good use of his velcro gloves :eek:

Kevin Milkins
16-Jun-08, 00:21
I like the posts of above ,but can you keep them a bit shorter as I strugle to keep an interest if if it goes on a bit .
The fags debate was good.
I think I must be a donkey.
I hate sheep,and give me a stick and I will beat them all day.
Never trusted wolves, a bit shifty for me.
I used to train sheep dogs and clever and loyal they are.
Good luck with your presentation.

Angela
16-Jun-08, 09:46
I suspect I'm the black sheep of the flock - never too keen to copy other sheep's behaviour, not impressed by the shepherd, not worried by the thought of wolves, and so far I've managed to avoid being harried or nipped by a sheepdog.:D

In fact I think I'm much more of a fairly solitary mountain goat!;)

Tilter
16-Jun-08, 15:48
Me? I'm a Stoat, albeit a very large and fat one.

Tell us what your role in all this is as a supersized Stoat, Northerner. It's bound to be an interesting tale/tail.

northener
16-Jun-08, 16:56
Tell us what your role in all this is as a supersized Stoat, Northerner. It's bound to be an interesting tale/tail.

Well, I don't see myself as any of the above bods in the Sheeps scenario.

To describe myself as one of the participants mentioned in M'Lord Flashies original post would imply that I am conditioned to respond only by taking on the persona of one of the aforementioned participants: ie. Sheeps Wolfs or Sheepsdogs. Or Sheepmeisters - cheers Helen for making it worse.:D

For me to categorize myself in a pre ordained social structure, I would have to relinquish my right to one of the basic tenets of Human thinking - the right to self-determination.
To see myself as Sheeps or otherwise would imply that I agree that there is a definitive social structure (over which I have no control) that will pre-ordain my role in society.

Screw that. You can stick your sheep right up your collective jackseys.

I'll just spend my time murdering rabbits and doing Stoaty stuff...

.

joxville
16-Jun-08, 17:15
And I'll carry on being the sky.:D

Sapphire2803
16-Jun-08, 21:38
And I'll carry on being a stick of rhubarb. Then I can get stewed! :lol:

No? Oh, please yerselves....

Lord Flasheart
17-Jun-08, 01:30
Screw that. You can stick your sheep right up your collective jackseys


Ouch .. now that it is going to hurt.

There was me thinking that kinky was using a feather but perverted was using the whole chicken.

You Sir are taking things to a whole new level !!

Tilter
19-Jun-08, 13:34
I'll just spend my time murdering rabbits and doing Stoaty stuff....

Ok, if Stoats are free-thinkers I'll be one too. I'm just going to have a problem eating all those raw eggs I've pinched. urgghhh.

AfternoonDelight
19-Jun-08, 14:22
God - have you never heard of a frying pan, Titler? :roll::lol:

Tilter
19-Jun-08, 14:39
God - have you never heard of a frying pan, Titler? :roll::lol:

Well yes I have, but in my new freebooting stoat format I wouldn't be hoicking a frying pan around with me.

northener
19-Jun-08, 18:54
Well yes I have, but in my new freebooting stoat format I wouldn't be hoicking a frying pan around with me.

Absolutely right, Tilter. No sensible Stoat would lug a big clangy frying pan around with them.

Sensible Stoats take their prey back to their lairs and stick 'em in the Aga.

northener
19-Jun-08, 18:55
.......

You Sir are taking things to a whole new level !!

Indeed, being a Stoat means a new level below ground.

Ricco
22-Jun-08, 08:17
Can I be a tree? I'll just stand back and watch it all.

Nope... that's what sheep do.

As for me? Firmly and definitely a sheep dog. I get really annoyed about the antics of 'wolves' to the point of planning what I would have done / do if I had been there.

Torvaig
22-Jun-08, 09:48
Now this is a good thread; thanks folks, I really enjoy hearing (and learning) from those who do not live in boxes......:)

joxville
22-Jun-08, 10:03
I'm still the sky-and rise above it.;)

northener
22-Jun-08, 13:51
I'm still the sky-and rise above it.;)

Ah, but:

Even the Sky can fall.

Information source: Chicken Licken

joxville
22-Jun-08, 14:49
Ah, but:

Even the Sky can fall.

Information source: Chicken Licken

Can we rely on Chicken Licken though? Word has it he's being bribed by Hen Len-an underboss to Fox Lox.[lol]

northener
22-Jun-08, 21:20
Can we rely on Chicken Licken though? Word has it he's being bribed by Hen Len-an underboss to Fox Lox.[lol]

In a somewhat bizarre twist, I can bring this back on topic by saying that if you want Chicken Licken to toe the line and become one of the Sheep again (ie: following the Party line on falling skies), what you need is something that chickens are very frightened of to make them shut up.

You could go for the Wolves, or alternatively, you could utilise independant free thinking radical Stoats such as myself.

Wolves would be too obvious, they are an embodiment of the State and would provide a direct link back to allegations of Government repression of Free-thinking amongst Sheep (and chickens). Politically Not Good.

Us Stoats, by comparison, do not see ourselves as being part of the Wolf/Sheep/Sheepsdog political system and, as such, can operate independantly without compromising our position in a political heirarchy - simply because we are not interested in, or see ourselves as being part of, that heirarchy.

In other words, make it worth our while and we'll do in the chickens.
.

Kenn
22-Jun-08, 22:13
"! am what I am , I have no one else to be."
I don't equate with the sentiments in the original post but can understand what the author is trying to say.
We are often faced with moral dilemmas but that does not mean that we change our character according to the circumstances rather that we use our judgement to assess a situation with the experience and knowledge that we have.

helenwyler
22-Jun-08, 22:42
Me? I'm a Stoat, albeit a very large and fat one.

I'm getting a great image of you Northener.

Sinuous (in a 'big' kind of way ;)) and crepuscular, with short legs. A loner (except when mating). And to paraphrase Wiki, when alarmed, you release a powerful smell from glands near Uranus. I expect Mrs Stoat would be able to verify the truth of that. :cool:

northener
22-Jun-08, 22:55
I'm getting a great image of you Northener.

Sinuous (in a 'big' kind of way ;)) and crepuscular, with short legs. A loner (except when mating). And to paraphrase Wiki, when alarmed, you release a powerful smell from glands near Uranus. I expect Mrs Stoat would be able to verify the truth of that. :cool:

I refuse to answer on the grounds that I may incriminate myself.

It will suffice to say that in common with all my cousins in the Genus Mustilidae - we can be a bit stinky at times. And not just around distant planets......

Tilter
23-Jun-08, 11:26
Helen W, you've put me off. I no longer wish to be a stoat too. In fact, I'm beginning to suspect I'm married to one. Bringing this very marginally back on topic, perhaps I will settle for being a weasel in stoat's clothing.