View Full Version : True cost of druggies
Yet again, our Government saw fit to try withhold information from us, this time about the cost of treating addicts:
http://news.uk.msn.com/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=8586784
In my opinion, (which these days is worth diddly-squat), they should be left to suffer cold turkey, then through time help them in a way that they are unlikely to use drugs again.
Lord Flasheart
14-Jun-08, 08:15
Im with you Jox.
A room, a bucket, and bread and water .. add one junkie and wait a month.
Why should these wastes of skin, blood and organs get FREE methadone when Asthmatics have to PAY for their inhalers??, there isnt much I like about the justice system in Saudi Arabia but the way they treat drug offences (and offenders) is one of them.
Maybe we should just change the word "addict" to "smoker" and watch everyone jump on the bandwagon .. ;)
A room, a bucket, and bread and water .. add one junkie and wait a month.
Why should these wastes of skin, blood and organs get FREE methadone when Asthmatics have to PAY for their inhalers??, there isnt much I like about the justice system in Saudi Arabia but the way they treat drug offences (and offenders) is one of them.
And maybe we should read the last quote of the article and try to help these often sad and desperate people
More than £730,000 could be saved if an addict was successfully brought into treatment by the age of 21, it added.
Maybe Emma Caldwells parents http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/7000154.stm would agree that their daughter was one of your
wastes of skin, blood and organs and not worth £70 000. What do you think?
I cant condone asthmatics having to pay for prescriptions when drug addicts dont pay for methadone but then I cant condone the fact that I get free prescriptions because i take thyroxine when an asthmatic has to pay for inhalers. At least a drug addict has a chance of being on Income support and therefore entitled to free prescriptions anyway - Im working. The system is flawed and at least the SNP are seeing their way to giving everyone free prescriptions - thats much fairer.
Lord Flasheart
14-Jun-08, 15:00
Sorry .. Drug Addicts are simply the lowest of the low.
No sympathy for these "sad and desperate" people from me.. none. You make it sound like they are victims for pitys sake, they are their own worst enemy.
I have plenty of sympathy for those who are ill through no fault of their own and cant get treatment because we are spending good money feeding the addictions of individuals who made a concious choice and wrecked their lives.
As for the lass in the news article .. so what ??, a drug addict is dead. Couldnt care less, not bothered. More important things in life to worry about. Considering I give to a charity every month to provide for injured service personnel because the Goverment wont why should I ??, this country has its priorities so far out of whack it is laughable.
If you are wondering why I am so forceful on the subject heres why .. a druggie slashed a niece of a workmate a few years back, she is scarred for life. When it went to court he had all sorts of social workers etc etc lining up to make excuses for him. He tried to rob her and she paid all right, with her looks. He walked free and died of an overdose a few months later, I raised a pint to him with a great big smile on my face.
If you want to go down that road then its not only the Drug Addicts that cost the tax payers.......... So why single them out.:confused
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3537257.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/5360926.stm
And these figures are up to 4 years ago so what is the cost now.
If you want to go down that road then its not only the Drug Addicts that cost the tax payers.......... So why single them out.:confused
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3537257.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/5360926.stm
And these figures are up to 4 years ago so what is the cost now.
As I said on the piercings thread, I don't think you should single anyone out a worthy or not of treatment.
You could argue that smoking and drinking is legal, where drugs are not, but then do we stop treating speeding drivers involved in crashes?
my point exactly you cant just single certain people out because you dont agree with what they do, They are all a drain, its life it wont change.
The Pepsi Challenge
14-Jun-08, 16:34
Ban the drunks first, that would be a good start.
If you want to go down that road then its not only the Drug Addicts that cost the tax payers.......... So why single them out.:confused
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3537257.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/5360926.stm
And these figures are up to 4 years ago so what is the cost now.
I have not heard of many smokers and drinkers, mugging OAP's and committing crime, apart from the odd shoplifter, to buy fags or booze, but open any newspaper on any day and you will see a druggie, has robbed some defenseless person. Thats why I single out drug users.
Ban the drunks first, that would be a good start.
Pot smoking so called musicians would be higher on my list.[lol]
I am not saying all drug addicts are victims just that some are. How many of them think when they are young "oh I know what I will do with my life? I'll be a drug addict" How much of a choice is it when you are at your lowest, unable to deal with the blows life gives you, struggling to make it through a day, cant see through the mist of desperation and someone you know, love and trust gives you "something to make you feel better"? Suddenly you might realise your life is out of control... unfortunately the chances of you getting rehab to help you get out of that is small. Where do you go what do you do?
The country has its priorities wrong I absolutely agree with you on that, But you dont fix that by saying fine we will let people die over here but we will save people over there...
If people need help and it costs 70 000 to help one person come OFF drugs why are we not spending that?
Oh and i too have horror stories, except mine is about a friend whose young son was killed by an ex serviceman drunk and angry. He got off with a short sentence and had all sorts of social workers and psychiatrists lined up to say how out of character it was, how damaged he was da de da de daaaaaaa. Are all ex servicemen vicious thugs? should they all be locked up on leaving the services? No of course not - nor are all drug addicts wasters....
Sorry .. Drug Addicts are simply the lowest of the low.
No sympathy for these "sad and desperate" people from me.. none. You make it sound like they are victims for pitys sake, they are their own worst enemy.
I have plenty of sympathy for those who are ill through no fault of their own and cant get treatment because we are spending good money feeding the addictions of individuals who made a concious choice and wrecked their lives.
As for the lass in the news article .. so what ??, a drug addict is dead. Couldnt care less, not bothered. More important things in life to worry about. Considering I give to a charity every month to provide for injured service personnel because the Goverment wont why should I ??, this country has its priorities so far out of whack it is laughable.
If you are wondering why I am so forceful on the subject heres why .. a druggie slashed a niece of a workmate a few years back, she is scarred for life. When it went to court he had all sorts of social workers etc etc lining up to make excuses for him. He tried to rob her and she paid all right, with her looks. He walked free and died of an overdose a few months later, I raised a pint to him with a great big smile on my face.
The thing is they weren't always sad and desperate people. Addiction is an illness no matter what the substance. None of us know the circumstances under which these people started taking drugs or drink. You obviously feel strongly about drug addicts because of what happened to someone you know by an addict and I can fully understand and respect that. But would your opinion still be the same if it hadn't happened or it was one of your relatives affected by addiction? It's easy to judge when you are on the outside but these people destroying their own lives and affecting that of others, have little self-control. You just need to take Paul Gascoigne as an example.
I always say to myself there but for the grace of God go I.
I have not heard of many smokers and drinkers, mugging OAP's and committing crime, apart from the odd shoplifter, to buy fags or booze, but open any newspaper on any day and you will see a druggie, has robbed some defenseless person. Thats why I single out drug users.
Ill give you the smokers thing Golach but as for drinkers - i think you are way off the mark - look
The British Crime Survey shows that for Britain as a whole in 2004/05, victims believed the offender to be under the influence of alcohol in 48% of violent crime. This varied by the type of crime e.g. mugging 17%, stranger violence 60%, domestic violence 53%. In the 12 months up to February 2006 the Metropolitan Police recorded a total of 202,314 crimes of violence against the person. If 48% of these are related to alcohol, then more than 97,000 alcohol-related violent offences occur in London every year.
There is also evidence that many victims of assault are also likely to have been drinking prior to the incident.
In 2006/07 there were 13.5 alcohol-related recorded crimes per 1000 population in London compared with 10.2 per 1000 in England. London’s rate was higher than any other region in England. It also had the highest rate of violent crimes (9.0 per 1000, England 7.2 per 1000) and sexual offences (0.16 per 1000, England 0.14 per 1000).
I got this from a quick google here http://www.lho.org.uk/viewResource.aspx?id=9935 and its just talking about London for goodness sake. Drug addicts arent the only ones committing crime and imagine if we spent all that money on helping people off drugs how much less crime there would be.... If crimes are committed then people have to pay - regardless of whether its drink or drug related. The idea shoul be to prevent the crime in the first place by preventing the drug addict getting to that stage. Surely that makes sense.
What about all our A & E medical staff and Paramedics that are attacked regularly by drunks while trying to help them
There should be voluntary euthanasia for drug addicts struggling to cope with life in fact for anybody struggling to cope, where's Kervorkian when you need him.
There should be voluntary euthanasia for drug addicts struggling to cope with life in fact for anybody struggling to cope, where's Kervorkian when you need him.
Out of jail the last I heard of him.
Out of jail the last I heard of him.Is he back in business, if so I am sure he would help those drug addicts shuffle off this mortal coil.
Is he back in business, if so I am sure he would help those drug addicts shuffle off this mortal coil.
I think his activites may be a bit restricted now that he is on parole.
Personally I dont agree that this is the way to help addicts although when it comes to assisted suicides for those afflicted with terminal illness then that's a different thread.
I have not heard of many smokers and drinkers, mugging OAP's and committing crime, apart from the odd shoplifter, to buy fags or booze, but open any newspaper on any day and you will see a druggie, has robbed some defenseless person. Thats why I single out drug users.
Thats your opinion Golach but isnt it a fact that most domestic violence is cause by drinking and in some case's the victims havent lived to tell the story and lets not forget all the drunk drivers and the damage they cause, but hey lets not even go there.Thats why i dont single anyone in particular they all have their faults but then again so do we Nobody is perfect.
Thats your opinion Golach but isnt it a fact that most domestic violence is cause by drinking and in some case's the victims havent lived to tell the story and lets not forget all the drunk drivers and the damage they cause, but hey lets not even go there.Thats why i dont single anyone in particular they all have their faults but then again so do we Nobody is perfect.
Sam, a very good point, I agree a lot of domestic violence is caused through the abuse of alcohol, and that drunk drivers are criminals also.
My point was that drunken wife/husband beaters and drunk drivers are not committing the crimes to pay for their alcohol. But the majority of drug using muggers and petty thieves do commit crimes to pay for their habits.
I am like millions of many people in the world, who like to have a drink now and again, I think we are in the majority, I have never committed a crime, through using alcohol, I have never struck my wife or childern, or driven a car whilst under the influence.
But we read and hear everyday, some mugger giving a defense to the sheriff or the court, "But I was under the influence of drugs, it cannot be my fault". That does not wash with me.
I think regardless of the crime, whether it is committed by drink/drugs or both they can both be as bad as the other, You say you are partial to a drink but dont beat your wife/commit crimes etc, There are a lot of drug addicts that actually hold down jobs and pay for their drugs, some women even chose to put their own lives in further danger by using prostitution to pay for their drugs, that is why i wont single out drug addicts in my eyes they are as bad an evil as the other. It just proves that not all people can be tarred by the same stick. Of course that is just my opinion.
Kevin Milkins
14-Jun-08, 20:54
Ban the drunks first, that would be a good start.
Watchamean ban du druncs/?~#!
Lord Flasheart
14-Jun-08, 21:46
I am not saying all drug addicts are victims just that some are. How many of them think when they are young "oh I know what I will do with my life? I'll be a drug addict" How much of a choice is it when you are at your lowest, unable to deal with the blows life gives you, struggling to make it through a day, cant see through the mist of desperation and someone you know, love and trust gives you "something to make you feel better"? Suddenly you might realise your life is out of control... unfortunately the chances of you getting rehab to help you get out of that is small. Where do you go what do you do?
The country has its priorities wrong I absolutely agree with you on that, But you dont fix that by saying fine we will let people die over here but we will save people over there...
If people need help and it costs 70 000 to help one person come OFF drugs why are we not spending that?
Oh and i too have horror stories, except mine is about a friend whose young son was killed by an ex serviceman drunk and angry. He got off with a short sentence and had all sorts of social workers and psychiatrists lined up to say how out of character it was, how damaged he was da de da de daaaaaaa. Are all ex servicemen vicious thugs? should they all be locked up on leaving the services? No of course not - nor are all drug addicts wasters....
Ah boo hoo.
Life a bit bad is it ??, here have some smack and ruin it further. If as a person someone doesnt have the grey matter and character to take control of their life and takes the easy route and becomes a drug addict then thats their problem .. not mine. If that was an excuse then we would all be on them as I am sure there is not one person who has felt that life cant get worse at some point .. so why arent we all doped up then ??
Give drug users 70k for help ?? .. bit dear for a foot in the backside isnt it ??, Give a CRIMINAL money ?? .. not with my taxes mate, and not when some trusts arent giving people with cancer the drugs that would help them because its too expensive.
And the lass who was scarred isnt a "Horror Story" but a real person who still faces the scars every day when she looks into the mirror. And while your story may be real and you dont give too many details, if it was a veteran with PTSD, flashbacks or mental scars of some kind from experiences gained while serving then that my friend is a world away from a smackhead who throws his life away because he feels sorry from himself. Personally I believe you only referenced that as I mentioned service charities. Your flippant remarks about "how damaged he was da de da de daaa" are in sharp contrast to the compasssion you seem to have for drug addicts.
I served and for you to compare the experience's that still bother me and my mates to a self pitying junkie is, how can I put it, an insult.
Whilst I empathise absolutely and wholeheartedly with your workmate's niece and I understand your comments and feelings for former servicemen I can't share your absolute and apparently irrevocable disdain for those members of our society who have fallen foul of their predilection for harmful addictive substances. May I assume that you won't prevail upon the services of the NHS if you ever succumb to lung cancer because of your use of cigarettes? Or does the fact that you've prepaid for your treatment through taxes absolve you from the responsibility of using your grey matter to avoid this most dreadful of diseases? You are treading on dangerous ground in my opinion.
Moi x
Everyone deserves a chance. Your hardline views on drug users are your own opinion, but remember that people are willing to help these people. You might think they're not worth wasting money or time on, but there's people out there who really care and really want to help these people. I'm sure some of them would even do it for free if they could guarantee that these users would never use again.
People go to amazing lengths to help others. A waste of money to you, is money well spent to another man.
If the people helping drug addicts are making a difference, then they should be applauded.
Drug users, as far as I'm concerned deserve help. It's a lot of money, I agree, which could indeed be better spent elsewhere. This money however could save a life just as it could save a life if put into a hospital etc. A Life is a precious thing and if it can be saved, then well done.
A tangent one thinks... :p
Lord Flasheart
15-Jun-08, 11:03
Whilst I empathise absolutely and wholeheartedly with your workmate's niece and I understand your comments and feelings for former servicemen I can't share your absolute and apparently irrevocable disdain for those members of our society who have fallen foul of their predilection for harmful addictive substances. May I assume that you won't prevail upon the services of the NHS if you ever succumb to lung cancer because of your use of cigarettes? Or does the fact that you've prepaid for your treatment through taxes absolve you from the responsibility of using your grey matter to avoid this most dreadful of diseases? You are treading on dangerous ground in my opinion.
Moi x
Yup I will use the NHS for treatment for a legal activity and why shouldnt I ??, what I object to is people who are being supported by the NHS for an illegal activity. Have I missed something here ??, what about all the violence and crime associated with drugs ??, committed by the users in the majority of cases right ??, it makes me laugh the way people go on and on and on at smokers about their disgusting (legal) habit and then turn round and empathise with those engaged in an illegal one !!
But you know what, If smoking was made illegal tomorrow I would give up on the spot.
Im sorry if I dont fall into line with what seems to be the line of "Poor old them" but having that comes from having seen mates have every reason to throw their life down the toilet but instead choosing to get on with it and put something back into society instead of feeding of it like a parasite. I have complete contempt for those who wallow in their misery, commit a criminal act and want to be seen as the victim. Drug counselling seems to consist of "you poor devil here have some methadone, its free" while somewhere else someone with cancer is being told "Yes this drug will help you but we cant afford it" .. which is the more deserving ?? .. what would you want your taxes spent on ??
Dangerous ground ??, we are already there in condoning a criminal act, in fact the way that people can seem to go through life and there is always an excuse or someone to blame makes me want to throw up. No one is accountable for their actions any more. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind and countries in the far east that have a zero tolerance policy dont seem to have the same problem we do.
Coincidence ?? .. Hardly.
Ok, as far as I understand it, your position is largely based on legality and possibly taxation. That's a perfectly consistent position and I'm not going to argue with you on that front.
But what if heroin was legal and tobacco wasn't? Would you use the same arguments in reverse? As people have pointed out on several occasions in previous threads, it's largely for historical reasons that alcohol and tobacco are legal but cannabis, cocaine and heroin aren't.
Moi x
Ah boo hoo.
Life a bit bad is it ??, If as a person someone doesnt have the grey matter and character to take control of their life and takes the easy route and becomes a drug addict then thats their problem .. not mine. If that was an excuse then we would all be on them as I am sure there is not one person who has felt that life cant get worse at some point .. so why arent we all doped up then ??
Because some are stronger than others, Because some get help and others dont, because some have love and support and understanding and others dont. EXACTLY the same reasons as those which stop some ex-servicemen and women falling apart when others dont.
Give drug users 70k for help ?? .. bit dear for a foot in the backside isnt it ??,Give a CRIMINAL money ?? .. not with my taxes mate, and not when some trusts arent giving people with cancer the drugs that would help them because its too expensive.
Not as dear as the £800 000 it costs to NOT help them. Cant you see the point I am trying to make here - the original post talked about £800 000 being a shocking amount. It says that is costs over a tenth of that to help people get off drugs and maybe lead a profitable life. My point is simple - Spend the £70 000 to stop spending the £800 000. Are you saying that even though it costs £800 000 you would prefer to continue to spend that than spend the £70 000 because thats spent on helping people???? Maybe if they spent the £70 000 there would be more money for other drugs although i am aware that it doesnt usually work like that. The analogy of the cancer drug is simply an emotive smoke screen. The money being wasted in the Health Service on all sorts of things makes the £70 000 it appears to cost to treat a drug addict pale into insignificance. Refusing to treat drug addicts or smokers or drinkers or fat people wont make the money suddenly available to buy expensive drugs - itll get swallowed up in god knows what. The whole system is flawed.
And the lass who was scarred isnt a "Horror Story" but a real person who still faces the scars every day when she looks into the mirror. And while your story may be real and you dont give too many details, if it was a veteran with PTSD, flashbacks or mental scars of some kind from experiences gained while serving then that my friend is a world away from a smackhead who throws his life away because he feels sorry from himself. Personally I believe you only referenced that as I mentioned service charities. Your flippant remarks about "how damaged he was da de da de daaa" are in sharp contrast to the compasssion you seem to have for drug addicts.
Of course i referenced that because you mentioned service charities and I am aware that you served. The point i was trying to make was that it makes as much sense to lump all drug addicts as wasters and scum as it does to lump all ex servicement as ignorant thugs. People are people some good some bad some muddling through a bit of each. I may have no compassion for that particular individual because he is and was a thug with a vicious and uncontrollable temper that killed a lovely man. I knew him as a teenager too and he was no different then. (believe me or not as you like) I would have no compassion for that man if he was a drug addict, an alcoholic, or anyone. I try to have compassion for anyone who is struggling with life and i would like everyone who is experiencing these sorts of problems to get he help and support they need to get their lives back on track .
I served and for you to compare the experience's that still bother me and my mates to a self pitying junkie is, how can I put it, an insult.
I am aware that you served and i have the utmost respect for anyone who does so. However - without wishing to offend you or anyone else - you do not have the monopoly on suffering. Self pity is a demeaning word for any one who finds life and its blows hard to deal with. What you and I cope with and find a way through - other people may not be able to do so. That doesnt make them weak useless or a waste of space - it makes them human. Some find help on the end of the phone - samaritans and the like, some find help in the bottom of a bottle, some in the psychiatrists couch, some in their friends and families, some at the end of a noose, some in a needle or a pill. They dont all start off drug addicts, suicidal, or drunks do they.
If there was a human being there to start with, a living loving laughing human being, with intelligence and wit and the ability to love then isnt it worth trying to find that again? Even if it costs £70 000?
Sam, a very good point, I agree a lot of domestic violence is caused through the abuse of alcohol, and that drunk drivers are criminals also.
My point was that drunken wife/husband beaters and drunk drivers are not committing the crimes to pay for their alcohol. But the majority of drug using muggers and petty thieves do commit crimes to pay for their habits.
I am like millions of many people in the world, who like to have a drink now and again, I think we are in the majority, I have never committed a crime, through using alcohol, I have never struck my wife or childern, or driven a car whilst under the influence.
But we read and hear everyday, some mugger giving a defense to the sheriff or the court, "But I was stoned, it was not my fault". That does not wash with me.
Does it really matter weither the crime is commited to pay for drugs or caused by having consumed by alcohol its still a crime and as for but i was stoned its not my fault how many stoners do you know that go around mugging people because i dont know any i think you will find the correct term is out my face if you were stoned you wouldnt be botherd gettin your backside off the couch let alone mug someone!!!
Everyone deserves a chance. Your hardline views on drug users are your own opinion, but remember that people are willing to help these people. You might think they're not worth wasting money or time on, but there's people out there who really care and really want to help these people. I'm sure some of them would even do it for free if they could guarantee that these users would never use again.
People go to amazing lengths to help others. A waste of money to you, is money well spent to another man.
If the people helping drug addicts are making a difference, then they should be applauded.
Drug users, as far as I'm concerned deserve help. It's a lot of money, I agree, which could indeed be better spent elsewhere. This money however could save a life just as it could save a life if put into a hospital etc. A Life is a precious thing and if it can be saved, then well done.
A tangent one thinks... :p
well said! I really do not know why people like to think they are better than people that are addicted to drugs? Calling them "wastes of space" etc. They are people who need help, not to be told over and over again that they are not wanted in this world and dont deserve the help of others. Jesus, all of us make mistakes in our lives, it doesnt mean we are less of a person than anyone else. i understand if the person is stealing to fund their habit, but i bet they wouldnt be if they didnt need to, and i bet they feel terrible about it. What happened to equality? Everyone should be equal shouldnt they? i dont know why some people can think they are better than others? That attitude of others has probably driven some people to drugs i the first place.
Yup I will use the NHS for treatment for a legal activity and why shouldnt I ??, what I object to is people who are being supported by the NHS for an illegal activity. Have I missed something here ??, what about all the violence and crime associated with drugs ??, committed by the users in the majority of cases right ??, it makes me laugh the way people go on and on and on at smokers about their disgusting (legal) habit and then turn round and empathise with those engaged in an illegal one !!
But you know what, If smoking was made illegal tomorrow I would give up on the spot.
Im sorry if I dont fall into line with what seems to be the line of "Poor old them" but having that comes from having seen mates have every reason to throw their life down the toilet but instead choosing to get on with it and put something back into society instead of feeding of it like a parasite. I have complete contempt for those who wallow in their misery, commit a criminal act and want to be seen as the victim. Drug counselling seems to consist of "you poor devil here have some methadone, its free" while somewhere else someone with cancer is being told "Yes this drug will help you but we cant afford it" .. which is the more deserving ?? .. what would you want your taxes spent on ??
Dangerous ground ??, we are already there in condoning a criminal act, in fact the way that people can seem to go through life and there is always an excuse or someone to blame makes me want to throw up. No one is accountable for their actions any more. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind and countries in the far east that have a zero tolerance policy dont seem to have the same problem we do.
Coincidence ?? .. Hardly.
i used to think you were funny and great but not anymore
weither you are abusing a legal substance or an illegal one its still the cost
if it was a case of lung cancer through smoking or drug dependancy through not coping with life from having to be on the same planet as harsh uncaring people then i dont see any difference the smoker could of choose not to smoke and the drug addict could of found another avenue of help everyone makes mistakes everyone pays their taxes and everyone should benifit from the health service regardless of whats wrong with them and weither it was cause by legal or illegal substances.
and you asid that the lassie paid by her looks because of this drug addict well its not just drug addicts i watched a program and this lassie was bottled in the face lost her eye sight and has scars all over her face because of some drunk lassie who didnt like the look of her or what about the loads of women who die at the hands of their drunk boyfriends or have severe injurys is this also not as bad because it was caused by a legal substance, sorry i just dont get your point as to weither its caused by legal or illegal substances everyone is entitled to the same help
Pot smoking so called musicians would be higher on my list.[lol]
Talking about Sir Paul again?
Does it really matter weither the crime is commited to pay for drugs or caused by having consumed by alcohol its still a crime and as for but i was stoned its not my fault how many stoners do you know that go around mugging people because i dont know any i think you will find the correct term is out my face if you were stoned you wouldnt be botherd gettin your backside off the couch let alone mug someone!!!
Thank you I have edited my origional post, I apologise for my lack of drug users jargon.
Pot smoking so called musicians would be higher on my list.[lol]
dont see how so called pot smoking musicians would b higher on anyones list as i would think if it was anythin to do with musicians it should be the one who take heroin and that becase they show they are doing it its quite hard to tell if a musican was stoned have you actually seen a stoned person before ?????????????
dont see how so called pot smoking musicians would b higher on anyones list as i would think if it was anythin to do with musicians it should be the one who take heroin and that becase they show they are doing it its quite hard to tell if a musican was stoned have you actually seen a stoned person before ?????????????
Ah, Padfoot, he has a particular, deep-seated hatred of one 'pot smoking so called musian' ie me.:Razz[evil]
Ah, Padfoot, he has a particular, deep-seated hatred of one 'pot smoking so called musian' ie me.:Razz[evil]
hahaha lol i thought so bt just thought i would have a go as thats just sad sayin that
Margaret M.
16-Jun-08, 15:40
But you know what, If smoking was made illegal tomorrow I would give up on the spot.
Perhaps then you may have a spark of compassion when you find it is not as easy as you think to beat an addiction.
percy toboggan
16-Jun-08, 17:30
[quote=Lord Flasheart;395733]Sorry .. Drug Addicts are simply the lowest of the low.
quote]
No they're not.
Like you I have little , if no sympathy and I'd lock 'em all up but...
The people who supply them are almost the 'lowest of the low'.
That particular station in low-life is reserved for those who hurt or exploit kids, and others who cannot fight back.
[quote=Lord Flasheart;395733]Sorry .. Drug Addicts are simply the lowest of the low.
quote]
No they're not.
Like you I have little , if no sympathy and I'd lock 'em all up but...
The people who supply them are almost the 'lowest of the low'.
That particular station in low-life is reserved for those who hurt or exploit kids, and others who cannot fight back.
Are you including the legal pushers who are fuelling the binge drinking culture with alcopops etc resulting in countless young people with incipient liver and kidney problems. This potentially a death toll which will exceed the deaths by drugs by a large factor.
Is it OK for this insidious business to continue because it is legal and you are fond of a pint?
percy toboggan
16-Jun-08, 18:37
[quote=percy toboggan;396772]
Are you including the legal pushers who are fuelling the binge drinking culture with alcopops etc resulting in countless young people with incipient liver and kidney problems. This potentially a death toll which will exceed the deaths by drugs by a large factor.
Is it OK for this insidious business to continue because it is legal and you are fond of a pint?
The word you used was 'legal'
So that's allright then. Yes..I like a pint and glass of red but because I'm fitted out with a functioning brain and a sense of proportion I know when to stop....and fund good causes - (like society)...with the taxes paid.
The 'two wrongs don't make a right' saying is all very well when you're at yer Grannies knee but in the grown up world we have choices to make.
Apologists for weak willed illicit drug users are a part of the problem.
I guess that includes you.
Your proposition is of course trotted out by the unimaginative tunnel thinker on a regular basis. Pity you cannot do better.
[quote=Gleber2;396780]
The word you used was 'legal'
So that's allright then. Yes..I like a pint and glass of red but because I'm fitted out with a functioning brain and a sense of proportion I know when to stop....and fund good causes - (like society)...with the taxes paid.
The 'two wrongs don't make a right' saying is all very well when you're at yer Grannies knee but in the grown up world we have choices to make.
Apologists for weak willed illicit drug users are a part of the problem.
I guess that includes you.
Your proposition is of course trotted out by the unimaginative tunnel thinker on a regular basis. Pity you cannot do better.
Male bovine excretia!!!!!
AfternoonDelight
17-Jun-08, 14:24
the smoker could of choose not to smoke and the drug addict could of found another avenue of help everyone makes mistakes everyone pays their taxes and everyone should benifit from the health service regardless of whats wrong with them and weither it was cause by legal or illegal substances.
Err, I think you'll find that not everyone pays their taxes and at the risk of generalising, it's normally the drug addicts/pot smokers that sit on their arses all day living off my taxes and thinking the world owes them a favour. Although, that said - I know/have known loads of people who take/have taken drugs recreationally - seems like it's the new black nowadays!
Like I said, I'm not one for generalising and I expect there are some addicts who want to lead a "normal" life and try and do their bit for society. It just pisses me off that some people go through life with their hands out and give nothing back in return.
Sorry - maybe that's a different thread.
percy toboggan
17-Jun-08, 17:03
[quote=percy toboggan;396801]
Male bovine excretia!!!!!
If the cap fits...you'll probably smoke it.
I seem to remember your stance from a couple of years back.
Yer quite possibly a long term addict/user (probably both) desperate to get the stuuff legalised , and normalised for some unbeknown reason.
I seem to recall you mentioned a 'musicians lifestyle' whatever that involves...probably anything except hard work.
You might need it to prop up whatever your shortcomings are but I fear for younger generations and the consequence of normalisation. If it reduces allegedly articulate people like yourself into producing resigned and dimwitted repsonses such as the above then it's clearly not a good thing for society at large. Get a grip.
[quote=Gleber2;397140]
If the cap fits...you'll probably smoke it.
I seem to remember your stance from a couple of years back.
Yer quite possibly a long term addict/user (probably both) desperate to get the stuuff legalised , and normalised for some unbeknown reason.
I seem to recall you mentioned a 'musicians lifestyle' whatever that involves...probably anything except hard work.
You might need it to prop up whatever your shortcomings are but I fear for younger generations and the consequence of normalisation. If it reduces allegedly articulate people like yourself into producing resigned and dimwitted repsonses such as the above then it's clearly not a good thing for society at large. Get a grip.
I wouldn't be going near any cliffs if I were you Percy.[lol]
Hey ho here we go - lots of name calling and no substance.....
[quote=Gleber2;397140]
If the cap fits...you'll probably smoke it.
I seem to remember your stance from a couple of years back.
Yer quite possibly a long term addict/user (probably both) desperate to get the stuuff legalised , and normalised for some unbeknown reason.
I seem to recall you mentioned a 'musicians lifestyle' whatever that involves...probably anything except hard work.
You might need it to prop up whatever your shortcomings are but I fear for younger generations and the consequence of normalisation. If it reduces allegedly articulate people like yourself into producing resigned and dimwitted repsonses such as the above then it's clearly not a good thing for society at large. Get a grip.
Right back to the days of your other lorry driving incarnation on this and the other failed forum and in this, your present pseudonym, you have continually spewed out the sme tunnel-vision claptrap which more than justifies my last respnse to you self centered opinions.
Alllegedly articulate? I think my posts speak for themselves. I have no need of anything to prop up my shortcomings. But give you each day your daily booze!!!!
Anything but hard work, you say. By God you are ignorant!!!!
Hey ho here we go - lots of name calling and no substance.....
Her here. But what should one do when faced with the sort of comment we can regularly expect from Percy. He makes it personal everytime.
percy toboggan
17-Jun-08, 19:28
Her here. But what should one do when faced with the sort of comment we can regularly expect from Percy. He makes it personal everytime.
Consistency at least then, in your view.
The consistency of 'male bovine excretia' is evidently not to your liking.
You're sorely hung up on something but I'm blowed if I can whip up the interest to delve.
Good of you to concede you're a long time follower of mine.
Given the vitriol I'm surprised you bother.
percy toboggan
17-Jun-08, 19:35
[quote=percy toboggan;397260]
I wouldn't be going near any cliffs if I were you Percy.[lol]
I have a long lost cousin called Cliff...and was once good friends with another Cliff....we were militant trade unionists together in the seventies.
Sadly the latter Cliff has now passed away.
Apart from those two I'm pushed to know who you mean....:lol:
[quote=Venture;397289]
I have a long lost cousin called Cliff...and was once good friends with another Cliff....we were militant trade unionists together in the seventies.
Sadly the latter Cliff has now passed away.
Apart from those two I'm pushed to know who you mean....:lol:
Well Percy seeing as we now know that some folk on this forum would like to push both of us off a cliff, we can hold hands together. Mind you thats only on the condition that you bring the parachutes.[lol]
[quote=percy toboggan;397339]
Well Percy seeing as we now know that some folk on this forum would like to push both of us off a cliff, we can hold hands together. Mind you thats only on the condition that you bring the parachutes.
This is better than the joke section ;) that gave me a right laugh [lol]
Consistency at least then, in your view.
The consistency of 'male bovine excretia' is evidently not to your liking.
You're sorely hung up on something but I'm blowed if I can whip up the interest to delve.
Good of you to concede you're a long time follower of mine.
Given the vitriol I'm surprised you bother.
I used the phrase 'male bovine excretia' because, in my fairly articulate opinion, that is what your post was. You spout a lot of it.
Let's bring the thread back to "non-personal" :)
The original NHS concept was a good one
"Origins of NHS
In the aftermath of the Second World War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_World_War), Clement Attlee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_Attlee)'s Labour (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Labour_Party_%28UK%29) government created the NHS, based on the proposals of the Beveridge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Beveridge) Report [1] (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWbeveridgereport.htm), Services would henceforth be provided by the same doctors and the same hospitals, but:
services were provided free at the point of use; ......"
The fact that we're moving faster than the Government can legislate is whose fault exactly......?
I wouldn't have denied George Best his liver transplant a few years ago, any more than I would have denied a friend of mine a kidney transplant recently. The circumstances were entirely different, but I would have hated being the one who had to judge.
percy toboggan
18-Jun-08, 20:03
I used the phrase 'male bovine excretia' because, in my fairly articulate opinion, that is what your post was. You spout a lot of it.
I can't deny it.
At least I don't take too much of this seriously, unlike some I could mention. Incidentally, you're not as articulated as me. Think about it.
Venture: :D ...you'd better pack 'em before we get the push my friend because I'm useless at that kind of thing...I'd hate to see the look on your face when said chute emerged in a limp, and tangled mess of silk, nylon and cord. :roll:
Articulate?- Isn't that a type of lorry?
Sorry couldnt help myself, just drying off my pants as they became rather damp after reading the posts on here!!!. What was the subject again? ;)
After reading the posts on here, who needs Drugs, you'll get better "Crack" on this thread than you can fit in your pipe!
I think some of the post were written while under the influence of mind altering substances but I wont say which ones ;)
Her here. But what should one do when faced with the sort of comment we can regularly expect from Percy. He makes it personal everytime.
Thats a bit double standards to say "here here" after you have just verbally attacked an orger.But what should one do when faced with the sort of comment we can regularly expect from gleber2.He makes it personal everytime.
Thats a bit double standards to say "here here" after you have just verbally attacked an orger.But what should one do when faced with the sort of comment we can regularly expect from gleber2.He makes it personal everytime.
I think, if you reread the thread that the first personal comment came from MR Toboggan. I asked in the post you quoted what one should do when personally attacked. My policy is to reply in kind. I always try to reply to a post in the manner with which it was delivered. If you don't like it, put me on your ignore list.:D
So that's allright then. Yes..I like a pint and glass of red but because I'm fitted out with a functioning brain and a sense of proportion I know when to stop....and fund good causes - (like society)...with the taxes paid.
So if I brewed my own peapod wine and got hammered every night FOC (which I don't ) Would I by implication be of less worth than the person who drinks the taxed alcohol. Just a thought. Both legal of course.
percy toboggan
19-Jun-08, 18:53
So if I brewed my own peapod wine and got hammered every night FOC (which I don't ) Would I by implication be of less worth than the person who drinks the taxed alcohol. Just a thought. Both legal of course.
I do not consider the home brewing of 'peapod' wine a threat to wider society, and as far as I know it's not pushed for illicit sales by underworld characters and those on the fringe of the underworld. You are unlikely to interface with people who might encourage you to try rather stronger, more harmful varieties.
Personal consumption of home brewed 'peapod' wine is neither cocking a snook at the laws of the land, nor is it likely to permanently change
your personality or dull your memory. That said I'd suggest a more moderate approach than 'getting hammered everynight'
Now then...have you anything else to ask?
Yes. Now could you answer my question please?
percy toboggan
20-Jun-08, 18:46
So if I brewed my own peapod wine and got hammered every night FOC (which I don't ) Would I by implication be of less worth than the person who drinks the taxed alcohol. Just a thought. Both legal of course.
NO.
See explanation/personal reasoning above.
It's my personal answer, because you asked me the question.
I wouldn't have denied George Best his liver transplant a few years ago
George was my vote for Masterchef. He managed to braise his own liver and then braised someone else's. Gee whiz, you die and leave someone else your valuable organ, they promise to look after it and then proceed to abuse it in the same way they did their own one. Another person could have had that liver but George chose to marinade it in fine alcohol instead. Even had the cheek to pretend he had kicked the habit in adverts for milk. The man needed a personality transplant.
[quote=percy toboggan;397339]
Well Percy seeing as we now know that some folk on this forum would like to push both of us off a cliff, we can hold hands together. Mind you thats only on the condition that you bring the parachutes.[lol]
Thelma and Louise? Which one is playing Thelma?
[quote=Venture;397403]
Thelma and Louise? Which one is playing Thelma?
Now, now Scorrie don't you be squawking too soon. Did I forget to mention that when push comes to shove you'll be sitting on my shoulder. It's not only me and Percy that's on the hit list. You might be needing that big pair of wings sooner than you think mate because you were not only on the list too, but TOP of it.[lol] So seeing as you're off first Ill be grabbing on to one of your legs as you go just in case the parachute fails. Thelma can fend for herself.;)
[quote=scorrie;398954]
Now, now Scorrie don't you be squawking too soon. Did I forget to mention that when push comes to shove you'll be sitting on my shoulder. It's not only me and Percy that's on the hit list. You might be needing that big pair of wings sooner than you think mate because you were not only on the list too, but TOP of it.[lol] So seeing as you're off first Ill be grabbing on to one of your legs as you go just in case the parachute fails. Thelma can fend for herself.;)
I've been on hit lists before but the "hitmen" have always been the ones who have disappeared first. If you can be the "Wind beneath my wings" I am sure that Thelma can take the other leg. I wouldn't like to see poor Thelma "Percycuted"
Boozeburglar
22-Jun-08, 00:42
I just picked up a 1980 Yamaha FG-340 for a song that plays and sounds better than several £2000+ acoustics I have had. £70, a freckin steal!!! So much so I have decided to go and give he guy another £100 to prop up my kharma.
Percy. Let me tell you something. Gleber2 is not just some musician. He is an inspiration to several generations of folk from the land you talk of moving to. You and him should by rights be friends not enemies. Black and white.
Let it rest.
On with the silly game.
:)
percy toboggan
22-Jun-08, 14:12
Percy. Let me tell you something. Gleber2 is not just some musician. He is an inspiration to several generations of folk from the land you talk of moving to. You and him should by rights be friends not enemies. Black and white.
Let it rest.
On with the silly game.
:)
He's not an 'enemy' as far as I'm concerned.
I've not had an 'enemy' since I was sixteen.
As far as I know....and
he snuffed it a long time ago.
If anyone takes to heart simple dis-agreements on here - howsoever invective the words chosen - none of it amounts to a row of beans as far as I'm concerned
Of course others are not so forgiving, casual or realistic, and I cannot speak for them.
If any one considers me an 'enemy' via posts on the org. get a life.
........Gee whiz, you die and leave someone else your valuable organ, they promise to look after it and then proceed to abuse it in the same way they did their own one........
Hindsight is a wonderful thing scorrie. With it we would all be perfect. :) Unforunately we are not.
In the same vein of my previous post here which you quoted "services were provided free at the point of use; " who would you actually deign to treat and who would you discard?
That is a serious question btw. I'd be interested to see your response. I'm taking into account that you have some expertise in observing some gamblers over the years.
. I asked in the post you quoted what one should do when personally attacked. My policy is to reply in kind. I always try to reply to a post in the manner with which it was delivered. If you don't like it, put me on your ignore list.:D
Ahh does one not like it when the shoe is on the other foot?
Have a nice day Gleber2 :)
George was my vote for Masterchef. He managed to braise his own liver and then braised someone else's. Gee whiz, you die and leave someone else your valuable organ, they promise to look after it and then proceed to abuse it in the same way they did their own one. Another person could have had that liver but George chose to marinade it in fine alcohol instead. Even had the cheek to pretend he had kicked the habit in adverts for milk. The man needed a personality transplant.
Didn't Jim Baxter do the same with 2 livers? I'm not sure but maybe they rejected him. Does being a 'celebrity' make a difference? My mother was denied treatment for cancer, yet she paid her taxes, lived an honest life and didn't drink. Sometimes I'm glad they are dead, if only to serve as a reminder to others that you've got a second chance, don't screw it up.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing scorrie. With it we would all be perfect. :) Unforunately we are not.
In the same vein of my previous post here which you quoted "services were provided free at the point of use; " who would you actually deign to treat and who would you discard?
That is a serious question btw. I'd be interested to see your response. I'm taking into account that you have some expertise in observing some gamblers over the years.
Hindsight is a great thing. However, many people do not need hindsight in order to become a decent human being. They have the, not special, in my opinion, gift of seeing that they have screwed up once and, given the gift of a second chance, they treat someone else's organ with the respect that they managed to forget about with their own organ.
George Best was a poor candidate for a transplant in my opinion. A footballer on the way down is not exactly the kind of person likely to make the most of a second chance. Gifted and well paid, the world at your feet and yet it's still not enough, you have to hit the drink to get high. Add in the factor that he was even further down by time he got a transplant and it is not exactly hard to see what way it was going to end.
Drinkers, Gamblers, Drug Addicts are all the same. They make promises and then keep letting people down. It is always, ONE more drink, ONE more bet, ONE more hit, but it is NEVER that way. They go on until they ruin themselves and the people around them.
Many anonymous people have proved themselves to be BETTER than George Best, by having the will to give it up and TRULY respect those they claim to care about. George was a selfish man, as far as I am concerned.
Man Utd team sheet playing a 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1 formation:-
No 1 George Best
No 1 George Best
No 1 George Best
No 1 George Best
No 1 George Best
No 1 George Best
No 1 George Best
No 1 George Best
No 1 George Best
No 1 George Best
No 1 George Best
Head Coach:-
George Best - Speciality:- "Looking after No 1"
Hindsight is a great thing. However, many people do not need hindsight in order to become a decent human being.........
Thanks for your reply Scorrie and I do see where you are coming from in saying that "George Best was a poor candidate for a transplant in your opinion". George Best is an extreme example of what not to do after being given a second chance at life.
In mentioning "hindsight" and the origins of the NHS, "services were provided free at the point of use; " I was thinking more of George's family and the medical staff and surgeons who treated him. His sad case history is one which is well known to us all, but there are many others who have turned their lives around after being given a second chance. Unfortunately, they don't make the headlines in the national press.
I know that I would have supported any member of my family in that scenario, hoping for a glorious outcome, but until the bitter end nonetheless.
Whatever the addiction - alcohol, drugs (prescribed or not), food, tobacco - the list is endless. It's costing us all a fortune and the solution defies me.
Joxville mentions his Mother who was denied treatment for cancer through no fault of her own. That is so sad.
The "true cost of druggies" was the topic opener here. Always an emotive subject and I see that another "Druggie" thread has been started. Would it be advantageous to merge the two threads?
I posted the following on the 'druggies' thread:
"My sister-in-laws friend is 39, has used drugs since she was a teenager and is now on methadone. She has been on methadone for 5 years but whenever the doctors say it's time she started to try a recovery program she threatens or attempts suicide, so they leave her on it. She hasn't worked since she was 21".
I heard a couple of days ago that this woman and her husband had split up 4 weeks ago. He was diagnosed as bi-polar 7 years ago and as such has been unable to work. He was immediately given a council house which was decorated and furnished at the tax-payer's expense.
My mother died of cancer. She couldn't get the treatment or drugs that would have either saved her or prolonged her life. Do I feel aggrieved that Government policy and we as a society failed her, yet spend millions on addicts? You bet your backside I do. I also include addict's of legal and illegal drugs".
It has been suggested to me that maybe treatment wasn't offered because of: a) her age; b) the extent to which the cancer had taken hold; c) treatment offered varies around the country~a 'postcode lottery'.
She was 62 and in full-time employment. When she told us she had cancer it was too late-she said there was nothing that could be done. She died 10 weeks later. She never got to see my son. As for the 'postcode lottery', the Health Authorities will always deny it happens.
I accept there are people who are 'druggies', probably socially at the weekend, and are able to work and contibute to society, pay taxes etc. however it's the couple mentioned above that sponge off of society and contribute nothing to it, moan about how hard life is and think the world owes them a living that should just be locked up for a few months cold turkey instead of having thousands of pounds thrown at them.
I paid £926.53 Income Tax and £326.93 National insurance this month and it galls me to know that most if it goes to support those drop-out's.
oldmarine
28-Jun-08, 10:23
Sad reading on this topic!!!
£900 of income tax and £300 of national insurance in a month?
£900 of income tax and £300 of national insurance in a month?
That includes some overtime but every penny hard-earned in a dirty,dusty,hot environment which is why I'm sick of supporting the Deadbeat Society.
I posted the following on the 'druggies' thread:
"My sister-in-laws friend is 39, has used drugs since she was a teenager and is now on methadone. She has been on methadone for 5 years but whenever the doctors say it's time she started to try a recovery program she threatens or attempts suicide, so they leave her on it. She hasn't worked since she was 21".
I heard a couple of days ago that this woman and her husband had split up 4 weeks ago. He was diagnosed as bi-polar 7 years ago and as such has been unable to work. He was immediately given a council house which was decorated and furnished at the tax-payer's expense.
My mother died of cancer. She couldn't get the treatment or drugs that would have either saved her or prolonged her life. Do I feel aggrieved that Government policy and we as a society failed her, yet spend millions on addicts? You bet your backside I do. I also include addict's of legal and illegal drugs".
It has been suggested to me that maybe treatment wasn't offered because of: a) her age; b) the extent to which the cancer had taken hold; c) treatment offered varies around the country~a 'postcode lottery'.
She was 62 and in full-time employment. When she told us she had cancer it was too late-she said there was nothing that could be done. She died 10 weeks later. She never got to see my son. As for the 'postcode lottery', the Health Authorities will always deny it happens.
I accept there are people who are 'druggies', probably socially at the weekend, and are able to work and contibute to society, pay taxes etc. however it's the couple mentioned above that sponge off of society and contribute nothing to it, moan about how hard life is and think the world owes them a living that should just be locked up for a few months cold turkey instead of having thousands of pounds thrown at them.
I paid £926.53 Income Tax and £326.93 National insurance this month and it galls me to know that most if it goes to support those drop-out's.
I feel cheated that in 25 years of mental health nursing I missed the course on "The research based efficacy of Cold Turkey and the Bi-polar patient". I wish I knew it was that easy to cure this extremely debilitating disorder years ago.
Sorry about your mum but it is no excuse to someone else in great need because of the systems failure to support all in need adequately.
I feel cheated that in 25 years of mental health nursing I missed the course on "The research based efficacy of Cold Turkey and the Bi-polar patient". I wish I knew it was that easy to cure this extremely debilitating disorder years ago.
Sorry about your mum but it is no excuse to someone else in great need because of the systems failure to support all in need adequately.
Obviously I'm no expert when it comes to mental health, but most druggies should get a spell of cold turkey instead of just throwing more money at them. Experts have for years come up with various ways of treating drug addictions and costing the tax payer millions. I may not have a degree but I certainly feel we are being taken mugs.
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