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cd1977
02-Jun-08, 13:34
Having attended the AGM for the Town & County club, I am disappointed to note the club made a massive loss of £25k for the year to Feb 2008. This, coupled with a loss of £22k last year, would appear to signal the end of the road.

It seems astonishing that, when the membership fee is taken into account, bar prices are still substantially higher than other establishments.

Macwull
02-Jun-08, 19:48
Very sad to hear! Its a nice place but sadly its only busy on a saturday night, Lets hope it doesn't end up like the dounreay club!!

MGB1979
03-Jun-08, 11:50
How a bar in a prime location can make any kind of loss, let alone a spectacular one, is beyond me. It appears that the prices are being raised as a knee jerk reaction with no regard for the long, or even medium, term.

I wonder if the dire situation is finally being addressed, or are heads being kept firmly lodged in the sand?

cd1977
03-Jun-08, 12:06
The latter it would seem.

There were unfortunately no explanations for the alarming loss.

The proposal to arrest the loss would appear to be the closure of the main bar to accommodate a games room.

I have no idea how many members the club has, perhaps someone can enlighten me. However the £25k loss would be even greater were it not for the safety net of this annual bounty. It makes you wonder what kind of trading position the bar would be in without such income?

Lumberjack
03-Jun-08, 20:18
Having been a loyal member of the "Backer" for over 20 years, I have lapsed my membership this year, based on the financial reports posted for the last trading year.

It is a miracle that the club is still operating, considering the abuse it has suffered over the years. Other members may remember the colossal fruit machine scandal (estimated at over £140,000). I noticed a scandal a few years ago and consulted a committee member about it. I told him what the scam was, who was working it and how much money was involved.
It would have been easy to set up a trap, but nothing was done.

There were other alleged scams which I cannot go into as no-one was ever brought to book for them. But as I said before other members may remember them.

I will miss the club, as I felt it was the best in Wick for the facilities and the crack. But, maybe with shifting cultures, the era of clubs is coming to an end. Pity.

silverfox57
03-Jun-08, 20:53
20years ago the backer was best club in town, Willie sandy, and David where barmen.crack was great,Friday night bingo.full,Saturday nights dance full. remember concert with billy connaly ,shame how times have changed,

2little2late
03-Jun-08, 21:45
Maybe if the committee lowered the joining and membership fee more people would join. I for one refuse to join "The Backer" because of the high price for membership.
Also, what's happened to all the so called New Changes the committee were going to make?

Isn't this the reason "The Backer" has a committee? They are faced with dilemmas so it is up to them to rectify them.
Try lowering the joining fees.
Don't come out with excuses like, "The fees are the price they are because........"
Lower the membership fees and you will see more members.

cd1977
04-Jun-08, 08:46
I think you have hit the nail bang on the head, Lumberjack.

The results just dont add up.

The excuse making at the AGM was nothing if not inevitable.

As you say there has been more than a whiff of corruption surrounding the committee for years.

The management of the bar itself is non-existent.

Torvaig
04-Jun-08, 09:18
Please be wary of accusations made in public without substantiation. Better to call an extaordinary meeting of members and arrange an investigation by the proper authorities.

If there is something illegal going on it should be reported. If someone came into your business and stole your cash you would send for the police; if cash is being stolen from the club (your club) it needs action.

If the books are investigated properly they should show any anomalies and if the books are not being recorded properly that too needs further action.

It is easy to look superficially at a business and surmise vast profits without knowing the outlays and many people mistakenly think that such and such a place should be financially sound because of what they see as potential income. Many buildings such as the Town and County Club cost a fortune to run on an annual basis; heating, cleaning, maintenance, staff, accountants etc., before they even begin to see a profit.

That said, if some members think there is something criminal going on, you must report it to the correct authorities.

cd1977
04-Jun-08, 10:04
Good points Torvaig.

However in a business which deals exclusively in cash the monies which may or may not be diverted will not touch the books. Therefore to look through the books, even with a fine tooth comb, would be pointless. Who really knows whether there was £500 or £250 in the bandit? The answer can only lie with the person/s who emptied it. If only £250 touches the books, that cannot be investigated further.

There is no adequate stock control system in the club. Everything you buy these days is barcoded. That means it is possible to operate a stock control system which should highlight any anomalies, in terms of the bar takings at least.

Torvaig
04-Jun-08, 11:08
I see what you mean re cash records. I was going to suggest a dual system where two people deal with the gambling machines thereby policing each other but I suppose that is open to gross misuse as well.

It is a sad indictment when "friends" steal from friends if that is what is happening; don't think I would want to be a member there.....but good luck with your club and I hope things improve as it has been on the go for a long time.

cd1977
04-Jun-08, 12:22
I think the saddest thing of all is the committee feel they are not answerable to the members. That came across loud & clear at the AGM. It was very much a case of tin helmets on.

It can be immensely difficult to overcome a clique. A clique which has a vested interest is even more of an issue. This is the problem the club faces. Unfortunately, due to poor attendance at the AGM, there are not enough people to make a genuine difference.

Metalattakk
04-Jun-08, 12:29
Who really knows whether there was £500 or £250 in the bandit? The answer can only lie with the person/s who emptied it. If only £250 touches the books, that cannot be investigated further.

Every pound that goes in, and comes out, of that bandit is logged in the machine itself. How else does it know when the magical 70% (or whatever the payout percentage is set at) figure is reached?

It's fairly easy (I imagine) to get an engineer to check it out, and match the figures against the recorded tallies.

silverfox57
04-Jun-08, 12:45
can see this thread disappear for legal reasons,as airing club acounts on open forum can be one sided,and out of order,

cd1977
04-Jun-08, 13:34
The problem with verification of the bandit by an engineer is that there needs to be a will to do so in the first place. Who from within the club is likely to authorise such an inspection?

Silverfox 57 - the club accounts are available within the bar for public perusal and a copy is distributed to each member at the AGM.

Lord Flasheart
04-Jun-08, 13:50
Bit of a shame that the old Backer is on hard times but then I never really frequented it when I lived at home.

I do remember that their bouncer with the famous forename of a hollywood star mainly known for westerns hit like a girl though .. ;)

Metalattakk
04-Jun-08, 14:29
The problem with verification of the bandit by an engineer is that there needs to be a will to do so in the first place. Who from within the club is likely to authorise such an inspection?

How about the Procurator Fiscal?

Torvaig
04-Jun-08, 14:42
I still think the members should have an extraordinary meeting; canvas each other and ensure there will be the required attendance and more to sort out their problems.

If they don't, they will have to put up with whoever is allegedly stealing from the club. It is the members who own the club; they have a duty to themselves and to the future of the club to see this thing through.

If the members want the club to survive they have to do something about it; they have to take the chance to rectify the allegedly wrongdoings at the club; if good men do nothing etc., etc.

But if they are not interested enough or cannot be bothered to go on the committee or, if on reflection, they decide there is nothing illegal going on then.....they get the club they deserve and there is no point in complaining about it here.

cd1977
04-Jun-08, 15:01
Again you make some good points, Torvaig.

However I fear apathy now reigns supreme. Every year that passes the attendance at the AGM dwindles. There are not enough members present to effect any kind of change. Because of that, the status quo continually get voted in. The AGM tends to be mainly populated by friends and acquaintances of the commitee unfortunately.

The club is in a serious downward spiral. I agree with you that more needs to be done.

Torvaig
04-Jun-08, 15:11
Well cd1977, I hope you get the support you deserve after sticking your neck out on here. Such a waste of a lovely old building if it goes belly up and a great place for socialising. I just hope that the members take a tumble to themselves and sort things out or else it is certainly the end of an era.

And of course, we will then see another thread bemoaning the fact the the place is closed, more "what is happening to our town centre" and "what are 'they' going to do about it". I do wish I knew who "they" are; I have a few questions I would like to ask them.

Unfortunately, I think I can predict the outcome of all this. Apathy always wins in situations like these...:(

Macwull
04-Jun-08, 17:52
Was the AGM advertised?? Just I didn't see it but im a young member so don't really know too much about the ins and outs of clubs. Would be a great shame to see it close as I always go in when im out!

northener
04-Jun-08, 18:39
Good points Torvaig.

However in a business which deals exclusively in cash the monies which may or may not be diverted will not touch the books. Therefore to look through the books, even with a fine tooth comb, would be pointless. Who really knows whether there was £500 or £250 in the bandit? The answer can only lie with the person/s who emptied it. If only £250 touches the books, that cannot be investigated further.

There is no adequate stock control system in the club. Everything you buy these days is barcoded. That means it is possible to operate a stock control system which should highlight any anomalies, in terms of the bar takings at least.

It would be very easy to monitor what your bandits are taking.

All fruit machines are fitted with meters to register coin in/coin out. They've been a standard fitting for donkeys years and are a very good way of assessing the true take of the machine. All you need to do is get whoever is emptying the machine to log the meter readings upon emtying the machine. These readings can be verified by a second independant club member.

If there's any jiggery-pokery going on, it will soon be very obvious.

silverfox57
04-Jun-08, 19:09
The problem with verification of the bandit by an engineer is that there needs to be a will to do so in the first place. Who from within the club is likely to authorise such an inspection?

Silverfox 57 - the club accounts are available within the bar for public perusal and a copy is distributed to each member at the AGM.
club accounts are for members ie share holders of club,not for public, as for bandit, this is not new,as in years gone bye it was always counted on sunday morning by 2 committee members,with trust of members,as once was one, resigned by membership many years ago for the same thinks, that appear to still going on.

sprint95m
04-Jun-08, 22:59
I have no idea how many members the club has, perhaps someone can enlighten me. However the £25k loss would be even greater were it not for the safety net of this annual bounty. It makes you wonder what kind of trading position the bar would be in without such income?
The TCC received £7174 in fees for the year to 29/2/2008 and £8789 in the financial year before.

cd1977
05-Jun-08, 11:13
The AGM is poorly advertised, hence the low turnout. A lot more could be done in this respect.

Judging by the fee income, the club appears to have lost around 100 members in the last year.

If it were not for the fee income, the bar would be trading at a loss in excess of £30k for the last two years.

That means there is a serious problem which requires to be addressed immediately.

Lumberjack
05-Jun-08, 20:36
The fruit machine scam I mentioned happened a few years ago (early 1990's I think). I mentioned it because there was a successful prosecution for the individual caught with his "hands in the till" and I have no fear of libel.
Thankfully, since then fruit machine security has been tightened, to the extent that the way the scam was being implemented would certainly not work today. These machines are now virtually tamper proof.

I did not post this thread to point the finger at the current staff or committee because I do not believe it is their fault. If the members do not want to use the facilities then you cannot twist their arm. There is a change in the entire pub/club culture, and a quick check at the drinks industry share prices, will show it is a national and not only a local issue.

As for myself, I chose not to renew my membership because I can see that there are difficult -- maybe even impossible times ahead for the drinks industry. Added to that there is the price issue. You can have a pint of lager and a measure of spirits in the Backer for £3.90 or out of Tesco's for £1.06. (Prices correct as of 02/06/08.)

sprint95m
05-Jun-08, 21:07
The AGM is poorly advertised, hence the low turnout. A lot more could be done in this respect.

Judging by the fee income, the club appears to have lost around 100 members in the last year.

If it were not for the fee income, the bar would be trading at a loss in excess of £30k for the last two years.

That means there is a serious problem which requires to be addressed immediately.
The TCC is not alone, it is a national problem. The CIU (Clubs and Institutes Union) paper regularly mentions this (the TCC is not a member).

The Social Clubs (or Working Mens Clubs) are targeted by property developers because they tend to occupy large sites in areas ripe for redevelopment. Their invariably weak trading position does make clubs easy targets, sadly.

I am not being sarcastic,but the recent AGM had over 50 members present, which by TCC standards is more than usual.

You are right, solutions need finding now, not later.

cd1977
06-Jun-08, 10:58
Another year like the previous two and the bank will pull the plug. No doubt, as you say, the developers will be circling.

I am not so sure that market forces are entirely to blame. More effort is required from within the club.

I have seen people come in to the main bar, ring the bell, and then wait for up to fifteen minutes to be served. I have also seen people leave the bar after a long wait as it appears that no one is serving.

Clearly, when wages are sitting at about 75% of bar takings, this is quite a serious issue. My impression is that wages are out of control in relation to takings.

sprint95m
06-Jun-08, 17:20
Bar gross profit........£109,501
Gaming machine profit.....£16,097

Wages.............£71,550 (bear in mind, this does not include treasurer and secretary whose salaries are in total a further £9,364)



In the late 90s when the club was making a net profit of over £30,000 each year, the profit on the bandits more or less covered the staff wages (which I remember were about £50,000), but this was before the lounge was refurbished.


As you say, there is no excuse for poor service.

cd1977
07-Jun-08, 07:49
Over 50 attending the AGM, on the face of it, sounds reasonable.

However, when you consider that twelve of those were committee members it leaves very few people who care about the future direction of the club. That is of course assuming that the club has a future.

MGB1979
10-Jun-08, 13:09
The Stag bar appears to have lost a lot of it's younger 'regulars' (and by younger I mean below retirement age). I remember several times I sat at a sticky table, surrounded by empty glasses while the staff read the paper behind the bar. The boxing day farce shows exactly how the club regarded it's Stag bar punters.

TBH
10-Jun-08, 13:52
Maybe they need to get a business consultant in to try and find out where things are going wrong, yes it will cost more money but may actually stop the haemorraging of much needed cash and increase profits in the future. The club is in a prime location and really should be doing better financially so if any members are really interested in saving their club and yes it is yours, then you have to be there at the meetings to voice your opinions and if as a group you are not happy with the way things are run then vote for change.

cd1977
10-Jun-08, 14:00
It is telling that no one in a position of authority in the club has so far seen fit to comment here.

Would it be a case of attempting to defend the indefensible?

TBH
10-Jun-08, 14:04
It is telling that no one in a position of authority in the club has so far seen fit to comment here.

Would it be a case of attempting to defend the indefensible?I thought most social clubs were run by dedicated members elected to the commitee, not professional business people. In that situation mistakes will be made and that's the chance you take but there is always the chance for change.

cd1977
10-Jun-08, 14:47
If only, TBH.

The current committee only have self preservation in mind when it comes to club policies. Mistakes are one thing, and I am sure nobody begrudges them those, however the big issues are continually ignored.

They seem happy to concentrate on irrelevant matters and petty internal squabbles.

I suppose on the one hand you could say the club has the committee and staff it deserves as no one seems too bothered.

On the other hand, you can say no, these people are running the place into the ground and action needs to be taken.

Unfortunately those who would fall into the latter group are usually in short supply at the AGM.

TBH
10-Jun-08, 15:12
If only, TBH.

The current committee only have self preservation in mind when it comes to club policies. Mistakes are one thing, and I am sure nobody begrudges them those, however the big issues are continually ignored.

They seem happy to concentrate on irrelevant matters and petty internal squabbles.

I suppose on the one hand you could say the club has the committee and staff it deserves as no one seems too bothered.

On the other hand, you can say no, these people are running the place into the ground and action needs to be taken.

Unfortunately those who would fall into the latter group are usually in short supply at the AGM.A £25K deficit is hardly an irrelevance in any small business so steps should be taken to find out why this is happening.
Your fellow members need to realise that if they want to have their club survive then they have to stop being apathetic about the situation and demand answers and perhaps try and provide some solutions. Watch it die or fight for it's survival.

cd1977
10-Jun-08, 15:47
Solutions are in short supply right enough.

Most members I have spoken to seem to be of the opinion that the club is beset with problems.

However, modernisation is the key. If all stock was controlled via a barcode system, I would suggest that would go some way towards alleviating the problems in the short term.

The long term solution is to give every member a say in how things are run within the bar, via perhaps a voting system and suggestion sheets which could be passed out in the bar to regulars.

TBH
10-Jun-08, 16:01
Solutions are in short supply right enough.

Most members I have spoken to seem to be of the opinion that the club is beset with problems.

However, modernisation is the key. If all stock was controlled via a barcode system, I would suggest that would go some way towards alleviating the problems in the short term.

The long term solution is to give every member a say in how things are run within the bar, via perhaps a voting system and suggestion sheets which could be passed out in the bar to regulars.a barcode system would be okay for gauging accurately how much stock you have but how would that work with drinks being sold over the counter, would you not have to check the till receipts against the stock you are carrying or would the tills be connected to the system in some way?

cd1977
10-Jun-08, 17:04
The tills would be all part of the system just like in Wetherspoons. I believe they have the capability to do this in the Town & County club, but for whatever reason have chosen not to utilise it.

Make of that what you will.

sprint95m
10-Jun-08, 23:16
A useful feature of this system is the ability to compare "like for like" sales which enables trends to be assessed.

The man who led the recovery of the club in the 90s has just been elected onto the committee. Whether he will be able to change things, we will have to wait and see, but what is for certain is that he will question everything.

cd1977
11-Jun-08, 11:48
I fear the work required to bring things up to speed in the bar is way beyond the capabilities of one person, much as I have every respect for the individual concerned.

retired
18-Jun-08, 19:29
I thought most social clubs were run by dedicated members elected to the commitee, not professional business people. In that situation mistakes will be made and that's the chance you take but there is always the chance for change.
Regards Town & County club As one of the committee read all your comments some helpful others downright slanderous the committee are all working guys trying their best to help the club. the bandits are all metered and checked every week,the club has nothing to fear from the bank the club will be here long after cd1977 adisgruntled or suspended member ? hope you all enjoy the club at the weekend

silverfox57
18-Jun-08, 19:46
Regards Town & County club As one of the committee read all your comments some helpful others downright slanderous the committee are all working guys trying their best to help the club. the bandits are all metered and checked every week,the club has nothing to fear from the bank the club will be here long after cd1977 adisgruntled or suspended member ? hope you all enjoy the club at the weekend
retired good for you there is always two sides to every story,:eek:

bobbyrussell09
19-Jun-08, 00:39
maybe its the rubbish price o drink ere.2.40 for a dram.if like me most people will go o wetherspoons for drink.also could be the fact there are ppl that never renew there membership an just use there key as normal once there membership has lapsed

bobbyrussell09
19-Jun-08, 00:43
matbe time for a lick o paint .was in yesterday an main bar doors a state ,toilets need a paint job to cover replastered bits.u may not think it but even ehen ur drunk appearances do count.also sum bar staff are rubbish.a friendly smile always makes for a better work place

hotrod4
19-Jun-08, 06:46
It used to be a good club with a good atmosphere and great crack. I always find that service helps make a business a success or failure. If you have bar staff who have a bit of banter and are only too willing to help you feel welcome and will return, if they are cold then you probably wont return. What I think is needed is re-create the atmosphere the place once had, have a promotion,open night etc to get people back in through the doors and once their in keep them in. Make them feel welcome,show them how well run the club is and that will encourage people to come back and re-apply for lapsed membership. After all confidence is needed to get people back in. If you can gain peoples confidence and welcome people I think it would take off again. I hope it does its a cracking wee place, just needs a new direction, or new ideas.

cd1977
19-Jun-08, 09:35
It seems a few feathers have been ruffled.

In that case the thread has served it's purpose.

COACHMAN
19-Jun-08, 09:44
Perhaps the lock on the door should be changed as i know many people who do not pay membership and use the club.
Also a Doorman to do spot checks at the door would sort a lot of these people out.
You can get swipe cards to get in and they can be linked to the till which could be used for drink promotions and specials

sprint95m
19-Jun-08, 12:04
maybe its the rubbish price o drink ere.2.40 for a dram.
The TCC does not charge £2.40 for a dram, it was £1.50 the last time I was there a few weeks ago. It may be more than £1.50 now but certainly not as much as £2.40.
A dram in the clubs is 35ml, whereas most (but not all) pub drams are only 25ml. (35ml is the nearest metric to the old 1/4 gill measure.)

bobbyrussell09
19-Jun-08, 12:52
sorry i meant to put pint instead oh a dram

TBH
19-Jun-08, 13:09
sorry i meant to put pint instead oh a dramHow much is a pint in Spoons?

cd1977
19-Jun-08, 13:37
£2.10, as of last week sometime

TBH
19-Jun-08, 13:59
£2.10, as of last week sometimeCan the Backer compete price wise with a company like Spoons?

cd1977
19-Jun-08, 14:20
It's hard to tell. Economies of scale would suggest no, but the Backer has the advantage of the fee income. At £2.40 it's on a par with the most expensive bars in the town.

sprint95m
19-Jun-08, 21:52
It's hard to tell. Economies of scale would suggest no, but the Backer has the advantage of the fee income. At £2.40 it's on a par with the most expensive bars in the town.
To expand on what you have said, it should be remembered that Wetherspoons sell meals. The gross profit on food is considerably greater than that on drink.
So I guess that food sales, depending on the volume sold, could compensate for selling beer at a reduced profit margin?

2little2late
19-Jun-08, 22:18
Can the Backer compete price wise with a company like Spoons?

If the backer had plenty of members they probably could. But until they drop the price of membership fees it will continue to struggle.

TBH
19-Jun-08, 22:45
If the backer had plenty of members they probably could. But until they drop the price of membership fees it will continue to struggle.How much is the backer fee, is it a yearly fee?

2little2late
19-Jun-08, 22:47
How much is the backer fee, is it a yearly fee?

It's about £28 for first year then about £20 after that.

WickLad08
19-Jun-08, 22:50
Bar gross profit........£109,501
Gaming machine profit.....£16,097

Wages.............£71,550 (bear in mind, this does not include treasurer and secretary whose salaries are in total a further £9,364)



In the late 90s when the club was making a net profit of over £30,000 each year, the profit on the bandits more or less covered the staff wages (which I remember were about £50,000), but this was before the lounge was refurbished.


As you say, there is no excuse for poor service.


Have to reply to this. Wages should be between 15% and 20% of total revenue. This is extortionate.

WickLad08
19-Jun-08, 22:53
The tills would be all part of the system just like in Wetherspoons. I believe they have the capability to do this in the Town & County club, but for whatever reason have chosen not to utilise it.

Make of that what you will.

You can stock take to 100% without any fancy tills or barcode system - you simply have implement it and make sure it was done.

TBH
19-Jun-08, 22:53
It's about £28 for first year then about £20 after that.
So all in all it's not a helluva amount to spend for one years membership, 38p per week.

WickLad08
19-Jun-08, 23:00
Why the hell do they not just employ a full time manager who reports to the committee. Would make more sense to employ someone trained in the trade instead of people trying to stuggle along together. It would work out much more financially viable in the long run and it is then put down to one person instead of trying to blame a range of people. Also club prices are expected to be cheaper than the rest of the town hence why you pay a membership fee. Who wants to pay £2.40 a pint which is the same as the rest of the town?? Surely you have to pay a membership for a reason and at the moment nobody has one. Speculate to accumulate and you might find things getting a lot easier.

sweetpea
19-Jun-08, 23:02
Why the hell do they not just employ a full time manager who reports to the committee. Would make more sense to employ someone trained in the trade instead of people trying to stuggle along together. It would work out much more financially viable in the long run and it is then put down to one person instead of trying to blame a range of people. Also club prices are expected to be cheaper than the rest of the town hence why you pay a membership fee. Who wants to pay £2.40 a pint which is the same as the rest of the town?? Surely you have to pay a membership for a reason and at the moment nobody has one. Speculate to accumulate and you might find things getting a lot easier.


Yeah, what's wrong with showing a bit of enterprise and common sense.

2little2late
19-Jun-08, 23:07
Yeah, what's wrong with showing a bit of enterprise and common sense.

Because some people aren't that bright.

bobbyrussell09
20-Jun-08, 08:34
well done wicklad couldnt agree with u more.i used to be a regular in the backer used to get a good laugh.but as most people say most o the crack is gone.if the cracks gone why would u want to stay for a pint thats 2.40.i usually save masel 41 pence an go to spoons for a nice cold carling for 1.99

cd1977
20-Jun-08, 09:08
Agreed, Wicklad. Definitely a case of too many cooks.

sprint95m
20-Jun-08, 12:32
It's about £28 for first year then about £20 after that.
The TCC annual fee for a full member is £15.
The other clubs current annual full member fees are £15 for the Seaforths' Club and £10 for the Francis Street Club.

sprint95m
20-Jun-08, 12:49
Why the hell do they not just employ a full time manager who reports to the committee. Would make more sense to employ someone trained in the trade instead of people trying to stuggle along together. It would work out much more financially viable in the long run and it is then put down to one person instead of trying to blame a range of people.[quote]

This was the system employed by the TCC up until the mid 90s.
Think about it, why did they stop this?





[QUOTE=WickLad08] Also club prices are expected to be cheaper than the rest of the town hence why you pay a membership fee.
The clubs were formed as Social Clubs. Their purpose was to provide a range of facilities to the members for a relatively small fee. How many members are teetotal or drink only occasionally (think bowling, bingo,etc)?

WickLad08
20-Jun-08, 15:02
Therefore you dimiss the manager and employ someone else - its a definate improvement on blaming several people and there being no form of control whatsoever. Ok so people who go to bingo and bowling are T-Total or drink occasionally which is basically what you just said. Where is the margin in this? NONE! I could put bingo and bowling on every night of the week but it isn't going to justify the overheads. So try to diversify instead of being stuck in the same old? And how the hell wage costs are £75k of the total revenue I will never know. Are you paying bar staff £20 an hour or something? If there is no one person in control of the operation there is no way that you can expect it to succeed because no one person can be held responsible for the loss and from comments above the committee put their tin hats on. I am really not bothered if I ruffle a few feathers if it helps the members to realise where there is a possible solution. Its all to do with putting in the effort which needs to be 100% and not just being a member of a committee with a million and one other commitments besides.

WickLad08
20-Jun-08, 15:11
And when I say employ a manager I mean employ a proper manager with the right credentials and not just someone who has been a barman for a year - spend £18k a year on them and watch the benefits

loobyloo
20-Jun-08, 15:42
And when I say employ a manager I mean employ a proper manager with the right credentials and not just someone who has been a barman for a year - spend £18k a year on them and watch the benefits

Yes, that is the solution but first you have to get past the nepotism that is endemic in small communities.....

scorrie
20-Jun-08, 16:52
Have to reply to this. Wages should be between 15% and 20% of total revenue. This is extortionate.

What other revenue does the club have?

The Bar and Gaming machines bring in £125,598 and 15% of that figure is £18,839.70

You have already said that they should spend £18k on a manager. That leaves next to nothing for any other staff. You cannot apply percentages blindly to revenue. To formulate a business plan you have to work it in reverse to find out what revenue you need to make the business viable. There is a limit to how much money it is physically possible for the club to take in over the bar. Saturday is their busiest night and the club can only hold so many punters. People are just not drinking much through the week, you can't change that fact.

2little2late
20-Jun-08, 17:24
The clubs were formed as Social Clubs. Their purpose was to provide a range of facilities to the members for a relatively small fee. How many members are teetotal or drink only occasionally (think bowling, bingo,etc)?

How many committee members are teetotal and only drink occasionally?

silverfox57
20-Jun-08, 20:50
think all this posts about club, could be more helpful to sorting out problems, if members, and committee members,have a meeting in club like agm,where all can have the say on way forward,

TBH
20-Jun-08, 21:01
think all this posts about club, could be more helpful to sorting out problems, if members, and committee members,have a meeting in club like agm,where all can have the say on way forward,An emergency G.M would be a good idea but the views on here are likely to be more accurate because in my opinion people will not hold back on how they really feel. Some of the more valid points brought up on here could then be discussed at the meeting.

sprint95m
20-Jun-08, 23:15
And when I say employ a manager I mean employ a proper manager with the right credentials and not just someone who has been a barman for a year - spend £18k a year on them and watch the benefits

Up until the mid 90s the TCC employed a manager (or if you prefer a head steward). This system failed. Remember the club at that time was on its knees, probably very close to closure, owing Scottish and Newcastle a fortune. To recover the situation the committee adopted a more "hands on" management, in other words they did the work themselves. The club recovered and was making a net profit of over £30,000 annually for a few years thereafter. Unfortunately the club was not able to keep these particular committee members in place.

At the end of the day, if the committee are not on top of things, employing a manager is unlikely to work. Surely this is true for any type of business?

There is not a simple answer I fear.

2little2late
20-Jun-08, 23:22
At the end of the day, if the committee are not on top of things, employing a manager is unlikely to work. Surely this is true for any type of business?

There is not a simple answer I fear.

Then get rid of the present committee and vote a new one in. Preferably a committee that has it's interests in The T&CC and not themselves.

sprint95m
20-Jun-08, 23:50
Then get rid of the present committee and vote a new one in. Preferably a committee that has it's interests in The T&CC and not themselves.
That is what happened last year. Alas getting enough good committee members is proving difficult/impossible.

2little2late
21-Jun-08, 00:03
That is what happened last year. Alas getting enough good committee members is proving difficult/impossible.

Why is it so difficult to find good committee members?

sweetpea
21-Jun-08, 00:03
What other revenue does the club have?

The Bar and Gaming machines bring in £125,598 and 15% of that figure is £18,839.70

You have already said that they should spend £18k on a manager. That leaves next to nothing for any other staff. You cannot apply percentages blindly to revenue. To formulate a business plan you have to work it in reverse to find out what revenue you need to make the business viable. There is a limit to how much money it is physically possible for the club to take in over the bar. Saturday is their busiest night and the club can only hold so many punters. People are just not drinking much through the week, you can't change that fact.


Is that 125K a year?

retired
21-Jun-08, 02:44
Hi guys back again afraid the days when we as an old committee worked together are done. successive committees have tried and not had much success. Sprint got the fee;s right, Manager at 18k you are haveing a joke ! cant compete with Weatherspoons prices; havent got the buying power, till programs out of date, new ones cost a fortune. some of your suggestions will be taken up at next committee meeting but dont expect miracles ,Bums on seats is the answer to all the clubs in the towns problems.

bobbyrussell09
21-Jun-08, 14:58
i agree with a clear out off present commity.i think a new younger commity is whats maybe needed.they will have fresh ideas.were as the loder commity members will be old fashioned an dont want to change ways.as the saying goes you cant teach an old dog new tricks ,or new ideas

scorrie
21-Jun-08, 20:30
Is that 125K a year?

They are the figures provided at the Annual General Meeting and I assume that they cover the previous financial year. It certainly used to be that way.

WickLad08
22-Jun-08, 11:46
Firsty £125k for bar and gaming revenue is ridulous. £18k for a good manager out of last years wages of £75k is peanuts and a drop in the ocean. What use are part time staff who are there for the beer money and have no interest in the business? Someone's livelyhood has to depend on it before it will work or it never will. There is no passion if not and if it doesn't work it doesn't but at least you have taken a sensible approach.

Axis of Ignorance
26-Jun-08, 22:19
As a former patron of the Backer I am dismayed to read about its current state. It saddens me to think that something created with good intentions is being run into the ground. Whether that is through dishonesty or ineptitude is almost irrelevant, I'm just upset that we've got ourselves into this state.

Here's an interesting idea...

Get rid of the staff. Get rid of the tills. Run an honesty box and make it self-policing. Anyone who's read Freakonomics will understand what I'm taking about. If you haven't then read this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2006/04/17/ccfreak17.xml

That would get rid of the inept and the dishonest. Not to cast any aspersions but it's clear that one of those, or a combination, is the cause of the current issues.

Employ two people - one to clean the place and one to take care of ordering and general management. A chef and some kitchen staff could be employed if food should be provided. I have no doubts that the fine patrons of that club would contribute sufficiently to keep the place in fine fettle.