View Full Version : Rivers of urine
percy toboggan
16-May-08, 19:18
This is not a football thread...more of a social one. I've seen no mention of this on the .org as yet.
Three days on from the Tartan invasion and still Mancunians count the cost.
WE all know it was a minority of hooligans who spoilt the carnival atmosphere and it was a terrible time for a telly to go on the blink...no excuses though as I'm sure you'll agree. The amount of alcohol many people were consuming simply beggared belief...add sunshine, soccer and a built in antipathy from many towards their English hosts and you have the perfect storm.
Nobody who remembers the nineteen seventies ever quite bought into the myth that all Scottish football followers are full of bon-hommie and friendly as owt....especially south of their only border.
The copper who was so crudely kicked to the ground and set upon by up to twenty pairs of flying fists and boots was on the telly tonight...he's lucky to have escaped with his life...in fact he is still shaking !
The rivers of urine which apparenty left the city stinking to high heaven the following day were perhaps the most abiding memory of the occasion for many Mancunians on the morning after. Only a couple of weeks previously most of us were blissfully unaware that a euro final was to be held here...of course when the combatants became known some emergency planning sprung into action...it doesn't seem to have been of the highest calibre.
We were told there would be 'sensible policing' during the Rangers 'invasion' which leaves me wondering what kind of policing we had before, or since...? By-Laws were suspended to accommodate the drunken hordes...it really is a great shame that the alcohol gene is quite so deeply embedded into the British psyche...'tis almost as though the default state of leglessness is the only way most men can enjoy themselves...and these days the women are not too far behind. The thin veneer of civilisation which protects us from each other is seldom as delicate as when the tribal team mentality kicks in...and the trouble kicks off.
Association Football ..more than any other team game attracts a particularly odious drink sodden element...I followed the game fanatically as a youngster but back then the beer intake before the game was largely confined to the players...Bobby Johnson - only slightly before my time - used to regularly have three pints of bitter ale before taking the field for Manchester City.
It's a great shame, for when played well the game is a great one...and the interwoven social connotations & loyalties from a century and more of the local football club is almost a cornerstone of the British working classes.
Nobody with any sense blames Glasgow Rangers F.C....the Scottish people as a whole, or the great majority of fans who managed to watch the game by whatever means and conducted themselves in a decent manner.
Anyway, at least some good has come from this debacle...for that's what it's being seen as down here...Manchester United's public homecoming parade from Moscow has been postponed indefinitely...behind every cloud there is a silver lining.;)
Lord Flasheart
16-May-08, 19:26
Darn.
I thought someone had started a thread because a previously undiscovered Enoch Powell speech had been found.
Bah.
a built in antipathy from many towards their English hosts and you have the perfect storm.I like, in general, most of your posts but that statement is utter rubbish.
Nobody who remembers the nineteen seventies ever quite bought into the myth that all Scottish football followers are full of bon-hommie and friendly as owt....especially south of their only border.That is all in the past, the majority of travelling fans from this country are generally well behaved.
The boot is now on the other foot, take a look at your countries own hooligan problem, sort that out first before critisising the majority for the acts of a small minority.
The copper who was so crudely kicked to the ground and set upon by up to twenty pairs of flying fists and boots was on the telly tonight...he's lucky to have escaped with his life...in fact he is still shaking !There is no excusing what happened to that man but six of his colleagues left him to his fate.
Again, don't confuse these scum with the majority of the rangers support.
The rivers of urine which apparenty left the city stinking to high heaven the following day were perhaps the most abiding memory of the occasion for many Mancunians on the morning after. Only a couple of weeks previously most of us were blissfully unaware that a euro final was to be held here...of course when the combatants became known some emergency planning sprung into action...it doesn't seem to have been of the highest calibre.Maybe if the powers that be of manchester had the brains to accomodate an apparent influx of 100,000 to 200,000 people, which they were warned about, i.e, toilet facilities for a start then this would not have happened.
Sell the alchohol but don't provide adequate toilet facilities, what a bunch of morons.
We were told there would be 'sensible policing' during the Rangers 'invasion' which leaves me wondering what kind of policing we had before, or since...? By-Laws were suspended to accommodate the drunken hordes...it really is a great shame that the alcohol gene is quite so deeply embedded into the British psyche...'tis almost as though the default state of leglessness is the only way most men can enjoy themselves...and these days the women are not too far behind. The thin veneer of civilisation which protects us from each other is seldom as delicate as when the tribal team mentality kicks in...and the trouble kicks off.Sensible policing as in, ie, not wading in with the storm troopers when feelings are running high at the incompetance of Manchester to run a high profile event such as the uefa cup final
Association Football ..more than any other team game attracts a particularly odious drink sodden element...I followed the game fanatically as a youngster but back then the beer intake before the game was largely confined to the players...Bobby Johnson - only slightly before my time - used to regularly have three pints of bitter ale before taking the field for Manchester City.
It's a great shame, for when played well the game is a great one...and the interwoven social connotations & loyalties from a century and more of the local football club is almost a cornerstone of the British working classes.At last, some sensible, constructive comments.
Nobody with any sense blames Glasgow Rangers F.C....the Scottish people as a whole, or the great majority of fans who managed to watch the game by whatever means and conducted themselves in a decent manner.Well done Percy, two in a row.
Anyway, at least some good has come from this debacle...for that's what it's being seen as down here...Manchester United's public homecoming parade from Moscow has been postponed indefinitely...behind every cloud there is a silver lining.;)Another testimony to the fact that Manchester city council couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery.
At least one fan was not going to stand by and watch the police officer being kicked senseless...
"I saw two lads coming from my right; I thought they were going to have a go," he said.
"But one of them shouted at me saying, 'I'm British Army, I'm a medic'. He grabbed me by the collar and he propelled me up the street.
"If they had not come along at that point I'd have been in big trouble. I'd have been seriously injured. I knew I was going to get done over.
"I feel lucky; whoever that Army lad was, he wants a medal."
But despite the widespread condemnation of the Rangers fans, Pc Regan said many of the supporters he came across were "as good as gold".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7404185.stm
I don't care which country or teams the supporters come from. What annoys me is why should the host City/Country feel compelled to provide expensive viewing equipment or Portaloo's? The ground where the match was held has X capacity, so tickets are allocated to that amount. No-one should attend if they don't have a ticket. Are some of the fans too stupid/arrogant/ignorant realise this? As usual the minority make all the decent fans look bad.
I don't care which country or teams the supporters come from. What annoys me is why should the host City/Country feel compelled to provide expensive viewing equipment or Portaloo's? The ground where the match was held has X capacity, so tickets are allocated to that amount. No-one should attend if they don't have a ticket. Are some of the fans too stupid/arrogant/ignorant realise this? As usual the minority make all the decent fans look bad.Why shouldn't they, they were quite happy to take the money these fans were spending? These fans were going to manchester whether the city wanted them or not and the city had a duty to provide adequate facilities for those fans.
To think they wouldn't come was total stupidity and a lesson learned for Manchester.
percy toboggan
16-May-08, 21:57
...Well done Percy, two in a row....
[/quote]TBH
Patronise all you want pal but if you really think the majority of Scottish football fans do not have an 'antipathy' towards the English then you are dreaming. I'd say you were a fool, but I don't think you are...one silly statement is not enough to convince me otherwise.
Oh!...and tell me...in a sardine pack of thousands of shoulder to shoulder bodies with barely enough room to raise a can how many are going to fight their way out to use a council sponsored portaloo? Few I'd guess.
The truth is some of these...many of these people are like dogs let loose off the leash and the first stop is the off-licence...it's like some crazy ritual of who can neck the most...and I say that as one who likes a drink...I just know when to cool it...speaking of which ...most of these guys will have been drinking warm beer....no glass, no class.
Remove yer fifty quid shirt...spoil the horizon with yer tatooes and bloated torso...sing a few stupid songs...etc.etc.
I've sung my share of stupid songs of course but by the time my twenties dawned I'd grown up.
Anyone with an ounce of sense knew as soon as the finalists were confirmed, that fans of the "local" team involved would travel en mass, whether they had tickets or not.
By all accounts Manchester did not prepare adequately for hosting such an event , only agreeing less than a week in advance to host/provide facilities for ticketless support - the fanzone facilities they did provide were minimal and packed out by the sounds of things. MrBurd stopped by at Picadilly Gardens about 6pm, but didn't even attempt to settle there due to the sheer volume of people packed into such a small space, and instead made himself content with watching in a nearby pub and had a wonderful time.
Unfortunately, upon leaving at full time he was lead (by police subsequently blocking side streets off) headlong into the running battles when he went to find his way to the train station. He witnessed first hand the car being attacked and vandalised, and was truly stunned and disgusted at the behaviour of the savages involved. At one point, he tried to approach a police officer for directions and was told in no uncertain terms to sling his hook, although the officer eventually relented and helped him out after some quick negotiations.
I can't begin to imagine how frightening it must have been to become caught up in all the nonsense - I only know how worried I was, desperate to hear whether he had gotten himself back to his accommodation safely. What's even more sad, is the amount of families that were there too - kids should never have to witness such shocking behaviour.
Alas, I believe the vast amount of the trouble was down to alcohol. You see it on a smaller scale on a Saturday night out - drink turns many a sensible man/woman, into thoughtless, aggressive, ignorant excuses for humans, who see the red mist at the slightest of things. Now place those people into an environment like Wednesday - people jostling for space; no food/loo's; team just lost... fireworks are going to happen.
In my wee world, I'd ban the demon drink at this kind of event, but I fully appreciate it's not as simple as that in reality. But yes, given the opportunity, that's what I'd do, every time.
percy toboggan
16-May-08, 22:03
Quote TBH
<The boot is now on the other foot, take a look at your countries own hooligan problem, sort that out first before critisising the majority for the acts of a small minority.>
THIS IS MY COUNTRIES HOOLIGAN PROBLEM.
I am British.
I don't care which country or teams the supporters come from. What annoys me is why should the host City/Country feel compelled to provide expensive viewing equipment or Portaloo's? The ground where the match was held has X capacity, so tickets are allocated to that amount. No-one should attend if they don't have a ticket. Are some of the fans too stupid/arrogant/ignorant realise this? As usual the minority make all the decent fans look bad.
Obviously not a football fan eh? My father attended this game an he is not stupid/arrogant or ignorant as you've stated above as well as the countless others that attented. If Caithness is awarded with anything like say ths surfing contest in Thurso that it hold every year please remember spectators who are not going to watch on the beach not to come, not to spend money and most of all stay away because you have to be either a surfer or have a beach pass. Obviously your too stupid/arrogant/ignorant to realise this before you posted.
Patronise all you want pal but if you really think the majority of Scottish football fans do not have an 'antipathy' towards the English then you are dreaming. I'd say you were a fool, but I don't think you are...one silly statement is not enough to convince me otherwise.Mamma didn't raise no fool Percy. To say the majority of Scottish football fans have any feelings one way or another about the English would imply that the English have some sort of importance in the mind of a Scottish football fan in another country supporting their team in a European final.
Oh!...and tell me...in a sardine pack of thousands of shoulder to shoulder bodies with barely enough room to raise a can how many are going to fight their way out to use a council sponsored portaloo? Few I'd guess.Obviously some wouldn't bother but if Manchester had provided enough facilities to cope with the obvious deluge of fans that they knew from days before that would be making the journey then I am sure things wouldn't have been near as bad as they were. As I have said, obviously the powers that be in Manchester couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.
The truth is some of these...many of these people are like dogs let loose off the leash and the first stop is the off-licence...it's like some crazy ritual of who can neck the most...and I say that as one who likes a drink...I just know when to cool it...speaking of which ...most of these guys will have been drinking warm beer....no glass, no class.
Remove yer fifty quid shirt...spoil the horizon with yer tatooes and bloated torso...sing a few stupid songs...etc.etc.
I've sung my share of stupid songs of course but by the time my twenties dawned I'd grown up.Yes Percy, many of them are but far fromn the majority.
Quote TBH
<The boot is now on the other foot, take a look at your countries own hooligan problem, sort that out first before critisising the majority for the acts of a small minority.>
THIS IS MY COUNTRIES HOOLIGAN PROBLEM.
I am British.In a footballing sense we are a separate entity. England's football hooliganism is not Scotland's problem.
armanisgirl
16-May-08, 22:45
Just wanted to say thank you to TBH. You have brought a wee smile and chuckle to the face of wee lost soul with your 'sarcasam'. Having already had my own say on the "14 units" thread today, perhaps some of the numpties that get legless and start all kinds of trouble as a result should read that thread!
But, I must agree with what many have said....as soon as Manchester knew there was going to be a tartan invasion, facilitites of ALL descriptions should have been put in place, ready to recieve the visitors. The day before, and on the day up until the match, our local radio station had spokespersons on the radio, bumming on about how much money they were going to make out of all these thousands of visitors; the expected economy boost was estimated at around £2m. Being the sarcastic Scot that I am, I said to my 16 year old Rangers fan son, "And it will cost them twice that, between shoplifting, vandalism and (in the event of Rangers losing) rioting". It looks like my cynism held some truth after all!
Every police force and Local Authority in this land KNOW that there is likely to be some kind of trouble with events like this. it has happened so many times in the past, be it on a small or large scale, yet lessons never seem to be learned. Forewarned is forearmed, so why so much shock at the trouble and violence? Some people are intent on causing this kind of needless behaviour, bringing innocent people into it, and putting huge risks on everyone concerned. There is no easy answer as to how to prevent this sort of thing from happening, unless, like has been said, fans with no tickets are refused entry to the city and there is an alcohol ban. That will probably never happen, as it just wouldn't be practical or easy to run.
But then, being a woman, I just don't get why men (and women) get so upset over a group of men playing with balls!!! [lol]
Thanks again TBH for cheering me up! xx
Obviously not a football fan eh? My father attended this game an he is not stupid/arrogant or ignorant as you've stated above as well as the countless others that attented. If Caithness is awarded with anything like say ths surfing contest in Thurso that it hold every year please remember spectators who are not going to watch on the beach not to come, not to spend money and most of all stay away because you have to be either a surfer or have a beach pass. Obviously your too stupid/arrogant/ignorant to realise this before you posted.
There is a world of difference between football supporters and surfing fans. We never hear of surfing fans going on a rampage, nor tennis fans or cricket fans or netball fans, need I go on? By it's very nature surfing is an open-air sport so naturally the spectators will be shoreside. Football at the level Rangers play is a STADIUM sport-therefore only so many can get in to watch it. Why travel hundreds of miles just to watch it on tv?
Fans who don't have tickets should be deterred from attending, all it does is put extra pressure on the police and emergency services. People complain about not having enough police out and about dealing with 'real' crime, yet an over-stretched police force is expected to provide extra security at a damn football match, therefore no 'real' crime is being dealt with.
By the way, I left work early to get home and see the game.
Just wanted to say thank you to TBH. You have brought a wee smile and chuckle to the face of wee lost soul with your 'sarcasam'. Having already had my own say on the "14 units" thread today, perhaps some of the numpties that get legless and start all kinds of trouble as a result should read that thread!
But, I must agree with what many have said....as soon as Manchester knew there was going to be a tartan invasion, facilitites of ALL descriptions should have been put in place, ready to recieve the visitors. The day before, and on the day up until the match, our local radio station had spokespersons on the radio, bumming on about how much money they were going to make out of all these thousands of visitors; the expected economy boost was estimated at around £2m. Being the sarcastic Scot that I am, I said to my 16 year old Rangers fan son, "And it will cost them twice that, between shoplifting, vandalism and (in the event of Rangers losing) rioting". It looks like my cynism held some truth after all!
Every police force and Local Authority in this land KNOW that there is likely to be some kind of trouble with events like this. it has happened so many times in the past, be it on a small or large scale, yet lessons never seem to be learned. Forewarned is forearmed, so why so much shock at the trouble and violence? Some people are intent on causing this kind of needless behaviour, bringing innocent people into it, and putting huge risks on everyone concerned. There is no easy answer as to how to prevent this sort of thing from happening, unless, like has been said, fans with no tickets are refused entry to the city and there is an alcohol ban. That will probably never happen, as it just wouldn't be practical or easy to run.
But then, being a woman, I just don't get why men (and women) get so upset over a group of men playing with balls!!! [lol]
Thanks again TBH for cheering me up! xxYou are more than welcome Armanisgirl. It really hacks me off when the majority of our fans get labelled through the misdemeanours of a very small majority, also the fact that Manchester police couldn't hold their hands up and admit that they had no hope of coping with but blundered along in their own incompetant manner. Also, credit must go to Manchester city council for nearly ruining the second most prestigeous event in European club football.
There is a world of difference between football supporters and surfing fans. We never hear of surfing fans going on a rampage, nor tennis fans or cricket fans or netball fans, need I go on? By it's very nature surfing is an open-air sport so naturally the spectators will be shoreside. Football at the level Rangers play is a STADIUM sport-therefore only so many can get in to watch it. Why travel hundreds of miles just to watch it on tv?
Fans who don't have tickets should be deterred from attending, all it does is put extra pressure on the police and emergency services. People complain about not having enough police out and about dealing with 'real' crime, yet an over-stretched police force is expected to provide extra security at a damn football match, therefore no 'real' crime is being dealt with.
By the way, I left work early to get home and see the game.Who applied to host the UEFA cup final? If they didn't have the services to cope then they shouldn't have bothered, muppets the lot of them.
Glasgow on the other had:
To be awarded a major European final by UEFA for the second time in 5 years clearly reaffirms, in my opinion, the status of Scotland, Glasgow and the Scottish FA as a major event destination, host and organiser
percy toboggan
16-May-08, 23:11
duplicated:apologies
percy toboggan
16-May-08, 23:16
It obviously never occured to Manchester City council that a Scottish club would get to the final. Sorry...but you asked for it....and they were, very, very poor.
...Any other fixture...Zenit v. Bayern or Fiorentina for instance would have been a pleasant, cultural exchange ...a few quid in the coffers (which I, as a Mancunian don't feel I've ever benefitted from, incidentally..and I hate the way M/cr is promoted as a 'world city' cos it ain't)...and neither is Glasgow...'world cities' are few and far between.
Drunken British scum are drunken British scum...whatever badge they wish to wear on their breast...or corporate sponsor displays upon their chest.the kind of people who rioted on Wednesday need a good flogging..followed by deportation to the third world. It will never happen because of feckless, gutless politicians.
[quote=TBH;384876]Who applied to host the UEFA cup final? If they didn't have the services to cope then they shouldn't have bothered, muppets the lot of them.quote]
Many decent people went to see the match on the big screen and I can imagine how disappointed they were when it failed but did they go on the rampage? Is that a valid reason for a drunken minority to go on the rampage? It has happened countless times in this country.
THE MUPPETS ARE THE ONES WHO CAN'T HOLD THEIR DRINK.
So the lesson here for other cities thinking of applying is to budget for drunken yobs.
It obviously never occured to Manchester City council that a Scottish club would get to the final. Sorry...but you asked for it....and they were, very, very poor.
The idiots had two weeks to prepare but I totally agree, Manchester city council were very poor, very poor indeed.
Many decent people went to see the match on the big screen and I can imagine how disappointed they were when it failed but did they go on the rampage? Is that a valid reason for a drunken minority to go on the rampage? It has happened countless times in this country.
THE MUPPETS ARE THE ONES WHO CAN'T HOLD THEIR DRINK.
So the lesson here for other cities thinking of applying is to budget for drunken yobs.No Joxville, the Muppets are both the scum that caused trouble in our name and Manchester city council for not having the wherewithal to host a major sporting event.
porshiepoo
17-May-08, 08:42
Mamma didn't raise no fool Percy. To say the majority of Scottish football fans have any feelings one way or another about the English would imply that the English have some sort of importance in the mind of a Scottish football fan in another country supporting their team in a European final.
That's not what is being implied there and you know it. You only have to listen to SOME Scots - in public, on here, in the local etc - to know that alot do have deep seated resentment toward England and the English.
I suspect that that resentment did have at least some bearing on what happened that day. Everything that went wrong would have been down to the English as far as these numpties were concerned and fuelled with booze they decided to at least get some kicks out of the day (pardon the pun)
Obviously some wouldn't bother but if Manchester had provided enough facilities to cope with the obvious deluge of fans that they knew from days before that would be making the journey then I am sure things wouldn't have been near as bad as they were. As I have said, obviously the powers that be in Manchester couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.
Yes Percy, many of them are but far fromn the majority.
Yes, perhaps the facilities were lacking but does that excuse what happened? No way! Rangers fans are responsible for their own actions.
Manchester should not have had to predict that it's fellow Brits would turn so visciously on their own. We've all seen scenes of football hooliganism from every country - England included - and I personally think that many people have become almost accepting of it as a way of Football life.
These hooligans need to be made to pay for their actions, not be excused because they didn't like the facilities.
In a footballing sense we are a separate entity. England's football hooliganism is not Scotland's problem.
It is when it's hooligans are Scots!
I also suspect that had these hooligans been English and the scene had been in Edinburgh, then your opinion may be very different.
porshiepoo
17-May-08, 09:07
I've just watched more footage of this on the net and I'm even more shocked than i was.
It's complete and utter mindless violence! I don't believe any of what I just saw has anything to do with lack of facilities or a broken TV. I think the actual football match comes in second to these people (Hmmmmm, they all appear to be men!;)), what they really get their jollies from and the reason they attend is to act as violent as they can, knowing there's a slim chance of being recognized among the masses and knowing they have some kind of security behind the masses (cowards basically). Let's see just one of those guys take on a copper on their own without the back up of the masses and without the alcohol giving them liquid bravo.
Police should be given more powers to stop this as it starts. They should be able to throw tear gas in, use rubber bullets, heck even let 30 or so dogs loose in there. [evil]
No matter where the origin of these so called Football Fans though, something has to be done to stop this.
I think it is an absolute disgrace that Scottish football fans have let themselves down like this. We can travel anywhere in the world and there will be fun and laughs but no violence, that's what they used to say but not any more it seems. It makes no difference that it was a minority, we should be ashamed by their actions not looking to blame anything and everything.
Welcomefamily
17-May-08, 10:16
I think it is an absolute disgrace that Scottish football fans have let themselves down like this. We can travel anywhere in the world and there will be fun and laughs but no violence, that's what they used to say but not any more it seems. It makes no difference that it was a minority, we should be ashamed by their actions not looking to blame anything and everything.
Even as a Rangers fan I have to agree, that small minority has damaged the reputation of Rangers and that of Scottish Football fans. Theres no point making excuses.
Maybe the answer is for UEFA/FIFA to ban the fans from Rangers going to the match. Have it played behind closed doors. It has been done before, to Liverpool back in the 80's, maybe it's time to do it again. Even the threat should make the decent fans report the troublesome fans.
The financial implications of that to the club also would hopefully have the desired effects. It has been completely unacceptable behaviour and there must be repercussions. I also hope they catch those responsible and the actions taken fit the crimes.
There is a world of difference between football supporters and surfing fans. We never hear of surfing fans going on a rampage, nor tennis fans or cricket fans or netball fans, need I go on? By it's very nature surfing is an open-air sport so naturally the spectators will be shoreside. Football at the level Rangers play is a STADIUM sport-therefore only so many can get in to watch it. Why travel hundreds of miles just to watch it on tv?
Fans who don't have tickets should be deterred from attending, all it does is put extra pressure on the police and emergency services. People complain about not having enough police out and about dealing with 'real' crime, yet an over-stretched police force is expected to provide extra security at a damn football match, therefore no 'real' crime is being dealt with.
By the way, I left work early to get home and see the game.
Lol i think your a waste of space on this as you've no passion for football an industry that brings millions of pounds in to the British economy from fans all over the world who attend with or without the tickets, Manchester made the mistake of taking the UEFA cup final on if they could not provide for the fans, Rangers and Celtic also setup fan zones for traveling fans with or without tickets as well. Also UEFA are powerless to act as the events happened away from the stadium, rumors are now coming out the other "firms" such as Chelsea, West Ham, Milwall and Man Utd mingled in with the rangers lot so this making the people harder to catch.
Lol i think your a waste of space on this as you've no passion for football an industry that brings millions of pounds in to the British economy from fans all over the world who attend with or without the tickets, Manchester made the mistake of taking the UEFA cup final on if they could not provide for the fans, Rangers and Celtic also setup fan zones for traveling fans with or without tickets as well. Also UEFA are powerless to act as the events happened away from the stadium, rumors are now coming out the other "firms" such as Chelsea, West Ham, Milwall and Man Utd mingled in with the rangers lot so this making the people harder to catch.
It's not for me or you to decide whether Manchester was suitably able to host this event or whether other 'firms' were involved or not, it still doesn't change what happened. Passion for the game is no excuse for mindless violence, regardless of how many millions the industry is worth.
percy toboggan
17-May-08, 15:30
This time next week most of this will be forgotten. It's had an airing here and I'm glad I instigated it. Reputations recover and as I said originally this was only a minority of idiots...
Ridiculous comment of the thread comes from TBH who described Manchester City Councillors as 'scum'...you appear to have taken leave of your senses on this matter..and frankly it colours the rest of your contributions here.They are a devalued currency for me now anyway.
How can any agency adequately plan, within a fortnight for an invasion of 150,000 people many of whom were intent on getting hopelessly drunk?
To blame anyone else at all other than the guilty hooligans is typical of a particular type of person today, it is the attitude of the bend-over-backwards to look for excuses brigade....in support of a complete absence of individual responsibility.
This time next week most of this will be forgotten. It's had an airing here and I'm glad I instigated it. Reputations recover and as I said originally this was only a minority of idiots...
Ridiculous comment of the thread comes from TBH who described Manchester City Councillors as 'scum'...you appear to have taken leave of your senses on this matter..and frankly it colours the rest of your contributions here.They are a devalued currency for me now anyway.
How can any agency adequately plan, within a fortnight for an invasion of 150,000 people many of whom were intent on getting hopelessly drunk?
To blame anyone else at all other than the guilty hooligans is typical of a particular type of person today, it is the attitude of the bend-over-backwards to look for excuses brigade....in support of a complete absence of individual responsibility.
No Joxville, the Muppets are both the scum that caused trouble in our name and Manchester city council for not having the wherewithal to host a major sporting event.Try reading that again Percy. Nowhere did I imply that Manchester City councillors are scum. As for planning for an invasion of supporters it does help when you don't leave it until the eleventh hour. "Don't confuse these scum with the majority of the rangers support", that's not too difficult.
Maybe the answer is for UEFA/FIFA to ban the fans from Rangers going to the match. Have it played behind closed doors. It has been done before, to Liverpool back in the 80's, maybe it's time to do it again. Even the threat should make the decent fans report the troublesome fans.Why exactly should decent fans be penalised for the acts of a very small minority?
bluenosenic
17-May-08, 17:19
percy,to me the bottom line in all this for me is manchester as a city was not capable of running the event .the policing and stewarding at stadium and in the city centre were not up to the standard you get at games in scotland of that i can assure you .i can also assure you if the scottish police were involved all known troublemakers would have been monitored from early on. to me this was an event run on the cheap by the so called number one sports city in the uk who wanted to make a quick buck . now i had made my mind up on this long before i knew about the fighting at piccadily .and finally i would love to see the 2 and half hours of cctv footage before the disgraceful assault on the riot cop because that is the time that elapsed between the tv failure and the running battle .at the end of the day it is the rangers support that will suffer as a group for what happened and from what i witnessed they were not the only guilty party .
porshiepoo
17-May-08, 17:41
[quote=hails4;385057]Lol i think your a waste of space on this as you've no passion for football an industry that brings millions of pounds in to the British economy from fans all over the world who attend with or without the tickets,
And how much of those billions are going to go toward Manchester for the cleanup operation? Or the damage that Rangers fans did? Or even as compensation to the police officer that was attacked?
Not a penny!
I too have absolutely no passion for football. And even less passion for the violent, mindless thugs that call themselves 'Fans'.
Manchester made the mistake of taking the UEFA cup final on if they could not provide for the fans, Rangers and Celtic also setup fan zones for traveling fans with or without tickets as well.
It sounds an awful lot like you are excusing what these thugs did! There are no excuses, there is just the plain fact that this, unfortunately, is what some idiots do in the name of Football.
Why the heck should any country have to make provision for the thugs that are going to turn up without tickets? What provision would have been enough? Nothing! It would not have mattered what Manchester put in place and IMO it's a dire society when we are so accepting of hooliganism that we should have to start making 'provision' for the hooligans.
Why exactly should decent fans be penalised for the acts of a very small minority?
I accept that decent fans are the ones who are hit hardest by this but it's about time something was done by the football authorities to put a stop to this violence. Ever since I was young all I've known is football fans fighting given the chance. I grew up near Glasgow and have seen it first hand. I now live near Reading and it's the same there, every other Saturday the City is swamped with football fans that give the place an air of being unsafe.
Why should decent fans suffer? The bigger question is why should the decent majority have to put up with this crap in the name of sport? I'm sick of it.
Three days on from the Tartan invasion and still Mancunians count the cost. what a pathetic statement, it was rangers fans that caused the trouble not scotland fans now there are a slight difference, now if it was fans from and english football team, then they would be classed as british not english, total ignorance, and pathetic
porshiepoo
18-May-08, 07:52
Three days on from the Tartan invasion and still Mancunians count the cost. what a pathetic statement, it was rangers fans that caused the trouble not scotland fans now there are a slight difference, now if it was fans from and english football team, then they would be classed as british not english, total ignorance, and pathetic
Nope, that statement you just made is totally ignorant and pathetic.
I haven't read the piece you're quoting from so I can only go by what you have said so show me where it says Scottish Invasion! It doesn't.
It never ceases to amaze me how every single time any Scotland / England thread comes up someone has to refer to 'If it was England, they'd be referred to as British'. That IS seriously sad and pathetic.
As I said before, if this event had involved English fans from an English football team, rioting, vandalising and beating police officers in Edinburgh (for example), your opinion would be very different. You'd be blaming the fans not Edinburgh, not the police, not the booze and certainly not a poxy TV screen.
The Pepsi Challenge
18-May-08, 09:23
Tom English writes a good piece in today's Scotland on Sunday about it all. There's also a great piece in today's Sunday Times written by Joan McAlpine which is worth a read.
http://sport.scotsman.com/sport/No-hiding-place-for-the.4095438.jp
hi i dont know anything about football not my thing but it just seems to me that the violence stuff is always happening i think that they should just put a ban on drinking at the match nothing you can really do about people that watch it at the pub or at home but it is stupid the amount of violence that is associated with football it just gives the game a bad name
robglysen
18-May-08, 10:15
Manchester must take some of the blame, for allowing alcohol to be sold all day to people who had clearly had enough to drink.
I'm also sick to the back teeth of the 'blame the english' sentiment, i'm sure there were many people from a lot of countries involved.
peter macdonald
18-May-08, 10:18
The real question here is that "Is football worth the hassle??" I think if you ask the lady who was caught inside her car as it was being vandalised her answer would be predictable There is an element of football "fans"who can best be described as scum and until ,either by self policing by the decent fans as well as the clubs themselves, this element is eradicated then the future is bleak
I agree with the comment about the article by Tom English ,Graham Spiers was also excellent in the Times earlier in the week
I also read excellent comments about about Scottish teams banning all political sectarian charting and and singing, only selling season tickets to people who live in Scotland , confiscating all political parafinalia at the gates and banning the sale or distribution of political leaflets outside the grounds .... Personally I would also put a ban on all flags in the ground except club flags and the saltire ....it all sounds good but will the SPL UEFA the clubs do it I doubt it
"The beautiful game" not really any more
PM
Nope, that statement you just made is totally ignorant and pathetic.
I haven't read the piece you're quoting from so I can only go by what you have said so show me where it says Scottish Invasion! It doesn't.
It never ceases to amaze me how every single time any Scotland / England thread comes up someone has to refer to 'If it was England, they'd be referred to as British'. That IS seriously sad and pathetic.
As I said before, if this event had involved English fans from an English football team, rioting, vandalising and beating police officers in Edinburgh (for example), your opinion would be very different. You'd be blaming the fans not Edinburgh, not the police, not the booze and certainly not a poxy TV screen.sorry think i did that wrong the first line was a qoute from someone else and i copyed and pasted it, this statement is pathetic, i totally agree with you if it had been english fans they would have been classed as british, but some scotland fans have way to much to drink then the whole of scotland gets it..
To blame the fans as "scottish" is wrong. Rangers football club are well known as being a "British" club.
As I stated on the original thread Chelsea headhunters had alot organised for the final.
lo and behold The news of the world confirmed this today (sunday).
ALL football teams have a rogue element that follow them and in this case it seems "english" clubs decided to get involved under the RFC banner.(as well as scots)
What makes matters worse is the fact that MCFC "supporters" were involved too (and I am a MCFC supporter)in their own city.
It doesnt take a genius to find the threads on various forums advertising the trouble with arrangements, so why didnt the police check what was happeneing?
I knew a week prior that thugs were descending in to Manchester but what did the police do-nowt.
Manchester just wasnt prepared for the biggest influx of people in many a year.
Shame its such a beautiful city with loads to offer.
T .... Personally I would also put a ban on all flags in the ground except club flags and the saltire ....it all sounds good but will the SPL UEFA the clubs do it I doubt it
"The beautiful game" not really any more
PM
And why shouldnt Rangers fans fly the union Jack or the Ulster flag? we are in Great Britain arent we.
I am 100% Rangers and British but dont see why Celtic should stop flying the tricolour either as they have Irish roots,and are obviously as proud of that as I am of being British and loyal to the crown.
I've just watched more footage of this on the net and I'm even more shocked than i was.
It's complete and utter mindless violence! I don't believe any of what I just saw has anything to do with lack of facilities or a broken TV. I think the actual football match comes in second to these people (Hmmmmm, they all appear to be men!;)), what they really get their jollies from and the reason they attend is to act as violent as they can, knowing there's a slim chance of being recognized among the masses and knowing they have some kind of security behind the masses (cowards basically). Let's see just one of those guys take on a copper on their own without the back up of the masses and without the alcohol giving them liquid bravo.
Police should be given more powers to stop this as it starts. They should be able to throw tear gas in, use rubber bullets, heck even let 30 or so dogs loose in there. [evil]
No matter where the origin of these so called Football Fans though, something has to be done to stop this.Good post with some valid points.
It never ceases to amaze me how every single time any Scotland / England thread comes up someone has to refer to 'If it was England, they'd be referred to as British'. That IS seriously sad and pathetic.It is sad and pathetic because it happens to be true. Commentators and newsreaders do it the whole time
As I said before, if this event had involved English fans from an English football team, rioting, vandalising and beating police officers in Edinburgh (for example), your opinion would be very different. You'd be blaming the fans not Edinburgh, not the police, not the booze and certainly not a poxy TV screen.I would be blaming the scum involved, not the whole support, not england and I wouldn't be calling for that club to be banned from europe or have them play their games without a support inside the stadium.
That's not what is being implied there and you know it. You only have to listen to SOME Scots - in public, on here, in the local etc - to know that alot do have deep seated resentment toward England and the English.
I suspect that that resentment did have at least some bearing on what happened that day. Everything that went wrong would have been down to the English as far as these numpties were concerned and fuelled with booze they decided to at least get some kicks out of the day (pardon the pun)I doubt that it had any bearing whatsoever. This was a minority of scum in an approximated 200,000 strong support from countries all around the world.
yes, perhaps the facilities were lacking but does that excuse what happened? No way! Rangers fans are responsible for their own actions.
Manchester should not have had to predict that it's fellow Brits would turn so visciously on their own. We've all seen scenes of football hooliganism from every country - England included - and I personally think that many people have become almost accepting of it as a way of Football life.
These hooligans need to be made to pay for their actions, not be excused because they didn't like the facilities.The lack of facilities does not excuse the behavour but it was certainly a contributary factor.
peter macdonald
18-May-08, 16:28
"And why shouldnt Rangers fans fly the union Jack or the Ulster flag? we are in Great Britain arent we.
I am 100% Rangers and British but dont see why Celtic should stop flying the tricolour either as they have Irish roots,and are obviously as proud of that as I am of being British and loyal to the crown."
And pray what has this to do with the sport of football??? It consists of 11 men kicking a ball
as far as i understand it
Also this "tradition" is seized upon by a minority as an excuse to let go the sectarian bile within them much to the despair of decent people on either side and what is worse those caught in the middle Sectarianism is a blight to the people of Scotland The wars of 300 years should be left in the history books where they belong
PM
percy toboggan
18-May-08, 17:02
Three days on from the Tartan invasion and still Mancunians count the cost. what a pathetic statement, it was rangers fans that caused the trouble not scotland fans now there are a slight difference, now if it was fans from and english football team, then they would be classed as british not english, total ignorance, and pathetic
I can barely be bothered to reply to you but if anything is pathetic it's the shambolic reasoning behind your utterance.
I can barely be bothered to reply to you but if anything is pathetic it's the shambolic reasoning behind your utterance.
each person is entitled to their opinion, and for me this is it, why should these rangers fans ruin it for the rest of scotland or should i say british fans.
percy toboggan
18-May-08, 17:14
Quote TBH <No Joxville, the Muppets are both the scum that caused trouble in our name and Manchester city council for not having the wherewithal to host a major sporting event.>
'both the scum' ?? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt...but ask yerself...are any of the 'Muppets''scum'? poor choices TBH..no wonder I became confused...it's an ambiguous selection of words....and I'd probably had a pint, or glass or red.
A muppet's a stuffed puppet and a lighthearted term for someone of below par intelligence.
'both the scum that caused trouble in our name AND Manchester City Council....
Given that there was more than one such 'scummy' person involved in the violence this is indeed confusing...the more I read it the more ambiguous it beomes.
And anyway...why do you suggest they (the scum, or indeed the council) were acting in 'your name' for Pete's sake? What they did had nothing to do with football allegiance or nationality...it was just drunken violence from nasty, boorish, pig-ignorant and uncivilised filth.
As far removed from ' the name' of decent, thinking & law abiding British people as it is possible to be.
percy toboggan
18-May-08, 17:19
each person is entitled to their opinion, and for me this is it, why should these rangers fans ruin it for the rest of scotland or should i say british fans.
Then why did you dismiss my opinion as 'pathetic'...I charge you with inconsistency Balto....anyway nothing has been 'ruined' here....and few with a brain will consider the guilty few as fans. The true fans were the 99% who behaved well and were a credit to their country...who also proved YOU CAN consume a belly full of beer and still behave yerself....who exported their tartan and their flags and their football allegiance with great credit...meriting fulsome praise from all and sundry...even the likes of I.
I wish the team had lived up to their great support...sadly, they were unable to.
Manchurians don't do too bad, this recent debacle was mostly down to drunken literates from all over. It was satisfying to note that it was a British Army squaddie that rescued that copper who was getting a kicking from those gutless morons..
The city does an excellent job with the;
UCI Track Cycling World Championships
9th FINA World Swimming Championship
BUPA Great Manchester Run
HI-Tec World Squash Championship Manchester 2008
Paralympic World Cup
bluenosenic
18-May-08, 20:10
bekisman the events you listed off would never attract the amount of people in manchester on wednesday if they were all added together as i said in previous post they were ill prepared .
I think this post was started because someone likes an argument [evil]
No, I suppose 22 primadonas kicking a bag of wind about does generate a lot of excitement (for some reason) and UCI Track Cycling World Championships, 9th FINA World Swimming Championship, BUPA Great Manchester Run, HI-Tec World Squash Championship Manchester 2008, Paralympic World Cup, might get a lesser number 'watching', but at least they ain't going to kick some git's head in..
If the Police presence had been heavier and 'robust action' determined by the CC, you'd hear the squeals from here, they can't win
Quote TBH <No Joxville, the Muppets are both the scum that caused trouble in our name and Manchester city council for not having the wherewithal to host a major sporting event.>
'both the scum' ?? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt...but ask yerself...are any of the 'Muppets''scum'? poor choices TBH..no wonder I became confused...it's an ambiguous selection of words....and I'd probably had a pint, or glass or red.
A muppet's a stuffed puppet and a lighthearted term for someone of below par intelligence.Stay off the alcohol Percy if you can't remember if you had a pint or a glass of wine.;)
'both the scum that caused trouble in our name AND Manchester City Council....
Given that there was more than one such 'scummy' person involved in the violence this is indeed confusing...the more I read it the more ambiguous it beomes.I think you are confusing yourself percy, stick to the cola.http://www.bowlandcentral.com/forum/images/dec05smilies/pepsi542.gif
And anyway...why do you suggest they (the scum, or indeed the council) were acting in 'your name' for Pete's sake? What they did had nothing to do with football allegiance or nationality...it was just drunken violence from nasty, boorish, pig-ignorant and uncivilised filth. Well excuse me Percy but you were the one that posted
a built in antipathy from many towards their English hosts and you have the perfect storm.Now you are saying it had nothing to do with football allegiance or nationality?
Quote TBH <No Joxville, the Muppets are both the scum that caused trouble in our name and Manchester city council for not having the wherewithal to host a major sporting event.>
'both the scum' ?? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt...but ask yerself...are any of the 'Muppets''scum'? poor choices TBH..no wonder I became confused...it's an ambiguous selection of words....and I'd probably had a pint, or glass or red.
A muppet's a stuffed puppet and a lighthearted term for someone of below par intelligence.
'both the scum that caused trouble in our name AND Manchester City Council....
Given that there was more than one such 'scummy' person involved in the violence this is indeed confusing...the more I read it the more ambiguous it beomes.
And anyway...why do you suggest they (the scum, or indeed the council) were acting in 'your name' for Pete's sake? What they did had nothing to do with football allegiance or nationality...it was just drunken violence from nasty, boorish, pig-ignorant and uncivilised filth.
As far removed from ' the name' of decent, thinking & law abiding British people as it is possible to be.
yourself not yerself
would that have been a glass of red
there is a c in becomes
Thought you were good with your words I think you should lay off the booze right enough [disgust][lol][lol]
yourself not yerself
would that have been a glass of red
there is a c in becomes
Thought you were good with your words I think you should lay off the booze right enough
....and you're getting in way over your head Kismet. I somehow think you'll live to regret criticising Percy. [lol]
bluenosenic
18-May-08, 23:00
bekisman if a city is going to take on major sporting events then they have to police and steward it properly . i have no problem with robust policing on the hooligan element in society but i still think that manchester did not prepare properly.it is not as if it is the first major football match the city has ever seen.the city council were well warned of the numbers coming but chose to ignore it because the fanzones were woefully undersized ,understaffed ,lacking in toilet facilities,lacking in food outlets, but not lacking outlets selling drink .it is unfortunate all anybody can speak about is at worst 100 neds out 200,000 rangers supporters who travelled to manchester and gave the team great support and the ones in the stadium who sportingly applauded zenit when they recieved the trophy
peter macdonald
19-May-08, 00:06
Great 200000 fans and a 100 neds ...at least that means at least a large proportion of genuine Rangers fans will have seen the neds and will have identified and reported them to the police either in Manchester or Glasgow I hope
Never understood why fans travel to the city where a game is to played without tickets and no hope of getting one either .
PM
The rioting happened because there are people (????????) out there that get their kicks by purposly causing trouble at this kind of event. They are not there because they are Rangers fans or Scotland supporters or British proud. They went there with the sole purpose of provoking fights and having a punchup. It worked exceptionally well on this ocassion.
The Pepsi Challenge
19-May-08, 06:28
To parody a song, and, make light of this whole sorry mess, ladies and gents, I give you...
Don't blame it on the sunshine
Don't blame it on the cheap wine
Don't blame it on the scoreline
Blame it on the big screen
It is exactly this kind of mindless conduct that has stopped me from ever attending a football game - I would rather saw off my left leg than go and be in the middle of such gormless behaviour. :confused
To parody a song, and, make light of this whole sorry mess, ladies and gents, I give you...
Don't blame it on the sunshine
Don't blame it on the cheap wine
Don't blame it on the scoreline
Blame it on the big screen
Nice one!!!
Like it ,and as you state lightens the mood :)
10/10
....and you're getting in way over your head Kismet. I somehow think you'll live to regret criticising Percy. [lol]
Doubt it :D But thank you for the warning I am quaking in my boots (not) and anything he has to say will go over my head I have made my point and have no interest in what you or he has to say afterwards
I hold my head quite high it is difficult to go in way over it
Come on Kismet, lets stick to the Thread, glasshouses and all that; (The Toothpaste thread)
"LOL it is definatley not to everyones taste, am scared to go brush my teeth now in case I start to notice the smell of public toilets, admittedly it is not the normal mint taste of toothpaste and I use Listerene too"
rob murray
19-May-08, 09:24
A guy who works with us was at the square, the toilets were wholly inadequate and basically failed to function properly after 10 in the morning. This affected everyone there. At some point the police wouldnt let fans leave the square to find toilets, so you have to go dont you. The whole thing was an organisational disaster. I am a Celtic supporter who recognises that the vast majority of Rangers supporters there, went down for the game and the crack and ashamed that their clubs good name has been trawled through the gutter.
Come on Kismet, lets stick to the Thread, glasshouses and all that; (The Toothpaste thread)
"LOL it is definatley not to everyones taste, am scared to go brush my teeth now in case I start to notice the smell of public toilets, admittedly it is not the normal mint taste of toothpaste and I use Listerene too"
We can all make mistake which was my point
I wasn't claiming to be perfect
Hope they can find and charge all the fans who have caused trouble in this instance have nothing more to say on this thread
A guy who works with us was at the square, the toilets were wholly inadequate and basically failed to function properly after 10 in the morning. This affected everyone there. At some point the police wouldnt let fans leave the square to find toilets, so you have to go dont you. The whole thing was an organisational disaster. I am a Celtic supporter who recognises that the vast majority of Rangers supporters there, went down for the game and the crack and ashamed that their clubs good name has been trawled through the gutter.Manchester city council gave a lesson in how not to organise a major sporting event. Nearly 25,000 people crammed into Piccadilly gardens, shops selling as much alcohol as they can. Sixty portaloos were provided and they complain about rivers of urine.:roll:
yourself not yerself
would that have been a glass of red
there is a c in becomes
Thought you were good with your words I think you should lay off the booze right enough [disgust][lol][lol]
As bekisman pointed out we (as in you too) can all make typographical or spelling mistakes while posting. For you to insinuate Percy was making mistakes because he had had one too many was IMHO totally out of order and uncalled for.
The Angel Of Death
19-May-08, 12:18
Taken from the link listed below supplied by a steward at the square this to me is quite a frank view on what happened and as a bluenose i am in now way excusing the thug element however as we now know it wasn't just rangers fans and a lot of hard lessons to be learned as well from the organizers also
Altered for the sweary words bar that nowt else has been changed
http://www.liverpoolway.co.uk/forum/ff-football-forum/61806-rangers-trouble-what-really-happened.html
Ive just got back from Manchester now. The firm i have just joined where doing event security for the game. Until we arrived this afternoon, we didnt realise that we where actually working on the fan parks in the city centre.
We got given high vis jackets then I was posted with 6 others to one of the gates at Picadilly Square Fan Park at around half 5. The crowds where unbelieveable, reminicent of Tacksim and Syntagma square for us, except in a much smaller area. Our job was to stop people entering with glass bottles. Bearing in mind this was my first ever shift, it was quite daunting. Alot of the people who i had to challenge for bottles where sound, had no objections because we provided plastic cups for them to enter their bottles in to. But there was alot of scum aswell, out of their faces who had none of it. I asked one big feller to empty his bottle in to a cup, very politely, and i was told to F off. I then went over to him again, and he twatted me in the chest, i asked him again with a plastic cup in my hand for him and he threw me in to a fence. F this, i dont get paid enough for this shite so i left him.
It was clear by then the sqaure was becoming dangerously overcrowded. Our gate was getting crushed, and we where pulled away by police for our own safety. We where moved further up to the entrance of the square, where barriers where accross preventing people from entering because it was too full. A lot of lads tried to get through, and the vast majority where sound about it and good natured with me. I had many a conversation with jocks when they noticed my scouse accent and realised i wasnt a manc. My advice to them was to find a pub before the rush, which went against what we where told to tell them which was to head for the fan park at the ground. I knew theyd have there so i didnt tell them that. No problems whatsoever at this point.
Then about 20mins before kick off, an older scots feller came over to me and said hoow dangerously crowded it was in the square, he said "someone was going to get killed", and thats why he left. He also said to me "mark my words, there will be a riot in there". I had those suspicions myself. From my experience of Istanbul and Athens, you can tell when something is not right, and i definately sensed that then.
We then hit quarter to 8, and the square is rammed with Rangers fans, singing and watching the big screen for the adverts to end and the game to start. By 5 to 8, still no game. Then a supervisor gets it over his radio that they werent showing it. I couldnt believe it. My words to him where "there will be absolute f murder here, its f suicide". Jocks where coming over asking us what was going on, and we had to tell them. They where understandabely fumin. I tried to tell them that i totally agreed with them, and that it was a f disgrace. Some where sound with me, recognising it wasnt our fault as event stewards. But then as people started to twig on what was going on, it started getting nasty.
There was about 15 of us on this gate with a few police near by, and the scots where fuming with us. Coming over, pushing us, screaming in our faces. What could we do? I agreed with every word they said, id be fuming aswell, but it had f all to do with us. Then it got quite serious, bottles where being thrown, passing just past my face and lads where getting really aggresive with us. It was then when our head office told us to pull out, and the police moved us down a side street. We where getting dogs abuse, bottles thrown down at us, everything. Obviously the fact we where in uniform attracted it.
Then our supervisor said they had to try and move us in to one of the portacabins back in the middle of the sqaure. We walked through as a group, through thousands of scots who where going crazy, throwing all kinds, screaming in our faces. We eventually had to take our jackets off and run. When we made it to this portacabin, all hell was going off around us. Riot police where coming from everywhere, and hundreds of rangers fans where charging them. Bus shelter where ripped down, and metal and wooden poles used as weapons to charge the police. The place was totally trashed. A bottle landed right next to me which had been thrown from someone. This went on for 3hours solid until 11 oclock. We had to take off all jackets and ties, and when it quietened down about half 11 we where able to make way to our coach at the GMex. Back at the coach we heard a Russian had been stabbed aswell.
People have said that the big screen in our square had a technical fault and thats why the match wasnt shown. I know for a fact that is bollocks. It wasnt shown because of the shear numbers in the sqaure. The reasoning was that if Rangers scored, there would be bedlam. But whichever thick **** makes these decisions obviously didnt realise the implications of not showing the game. If they wherent going to show it, they shouldve informed everyone at 6 o clock and give people time to fine somewhere else, not at kick off. Its an absolute disgrace, and so typical of UEFA event. I couldve organised it better, it was a sham. They totally underestimated the amount of scots that would travel. Logical thing to do would be to put a big screen in old Trafford and let people watch it there, then there wouldve been no bother. 2 fan parks was never going to be enough. I could see it, everyone else could, why cant the organisers of these events? Useless, heads should role after tonight.
Ive spoke to my dad and others who've said that the news have reported it as small disturbances with a hand full of Rangers fans clashing with the police. Thats absolute. There where hundreds, if not more, and this went on for hours right in front of my eyes. To be fair, the amount of Scots lads who made the effort to come over and speak to us while this was going on, simply saying "sorry" was amazing. I spoke to a feller who made the effort to come over to us when he seen us having all kinds thrown in our direction, and he just apologised on behalf of Rangers fans, and said what a disgrace and embarrasment it was. I know from experience that its always a minority who are scum, and tar everyone with the same brush. But thats what happened, anything you hear otherwise is crap, i seen it with my own eyes. Rangers fans had every right to be pissed with what happened in that square, but the actions of some afterwards, the rioting for 2 hours, was inexcusable. And it wasnt a "handfull" either.
armanisgirl
19-May-08, 13:27
What a terrifying experience for that steward. My other half has been a coach steward for Everton for the last year. I think the most coaches his firm had going to a match was four, though other firms put on coaches, then there's the cars, trains etc. I know that when leaving Liverpool, entering the opponents city, and leaving said city, the fans have a police escort, thus helping prevent as much football related problems as possible in the hosts city. I also know that as a steward, he was required to prohibit alcohol being taken aboard the coach - not always an easy task when you're on your own with 40 or so supporters! Upon entering the football stadium vicinity, the stewards are very limited as to being able to control the fans behaviour. (In saying that, upon stopping at service stations, some fans decided to shoplift anything and everything they can, there have also been drug related arrests, and also an assault related arrest - all when only half way on route to the match!).
I am so glad my other half wasn't asked to steward at an event such as this. As I and others have said, this behaviour is seen at many matches, by many different cultures and nationalitites. Yes, it tends to be only a small amount of thugs, intent oncaucing some kind of mayhem, regardless of if they have consumed any alcohol or drugs. The only way to really get the message across to this mindless idiots is to identify them, and punish them properly; not just a fine/community service and match bans. A lenghty custodial sentence, along with paying for damages etc might be enough to get the message across to some, and in time, perhaps all who have notions of causing trouble at football matches, or any other event of any size. But I also still say the host city should have been better prepared; after all, they did forecast at least 150 thousand supporters visiting, with or without tickets. This could have ended so much worse than it has. Though what has happened is bad enough and yet again tarnishes the reputation of thos honest and law abiding, decent supporters.
percy toboggan
19-May-08, 18:56
yourself not yerself
would that have been a glass of red
there is a c in becomes
Thought you were good with your words I think you should lay off the booze right enough [disgust][lol][lol]
You have a keen eye for detail kismet and it's to your credit that you saw fit to bring me down a peg or two.
I'm sure you can take it as well as dish it out.Time might tell.
Incidentally the dictionary defines 'Kismet' as the 'will of allah' does this mean your a muslim?
I'm one of those deprived, strangely polarised people that has no gay, black or muslim friends you see.
Could matters be about to change...? Given your attitude we might get on.
I hear it was actually the fashion police who were charging in batons drawn.
Slip on shoes, dress trousers, Adidas trackie top and 1992 Rangers top. See the front page of any national newspaper last Thursday.
Class gear :cool:
I hear it was actually the fashion police who were charging in batons drawn.
Slip on shoes, dress trousers, Adidas trackie top and 1992 Rangers top. See the front page of any national newspaper last Thursday.
Class gear :cool:
No, if that HAD been true, there would have been many more arrests.
Boozeburglar
20-May-08, 08:48
Incidentally the dictionary defines 'Kismet' as the 'will of allah' does this mean your a muslim?
Which dictionary do you use Percy?
You use the term dictionary; does this mean you are a follower of Zeus/Jupiter?
You are perhaps confusing language with religion.
I'm one of those deprived, strangely polarised people that has no gay, black or muslim friends you see.
You are probably joking, but how could you possibly know you have no gay friends? Perhaps they just don't fancy you. A long shot I know, but it could be true!
:)
During the Poll Tax riots we were attacked by a group of lads wearing Chelsea football shirts. I assume they headed into the West End for a bit of violence. Any large scale gathering with the potential to 'kick off' seems to attract a contingent there purely for that opportunity.
I have not heard of riots during Manchester Gay Pride, nor were there any during the Commonwealth Games in 2002, both large scale events, so I would suppose that the focus on drinking is perhaps the main problem that occurred on this occasion.
Perhaps there was too little notice for the intelligence gathering and targeting of suspect individuals travelling to the event. In my opinion, they should have continued to discourage the fans from going to Manchester, (knowing that a large number would anyway), to reduce the total number they had to deal with. They could have obliged ticketless fans to attend the Old Trafford ground to watch the game, keeping them away from the city centre.
It was certainly poorly organised, but that excuses not one act of violence.
I wonder how long Rangers will suffer in Europe as a result of this.
You are probably joking, but how could you possibly know you have no gay friends? Perhaps they just don't fancy you. A long shot I know, but it could be true!
Good one lol
I was in Manchester from Tuesday to Friday last week; overall I had a great time, in a great City. It has been a while since I spent any time in Manchester and I was very impressed with the city and its people.
On the Tuesday I spent a fair bit of time in a pub called Briton’s Protection meeting friends from around the World who had arranged to gather there. Among those in the beer garden in the back were Broxi Bear (the Rangers Mascot) John Smeaton (the have a go hero of Glasgow Airport), Mark Hatley and Billy Semple (ex-Rangers players) along with Rangers Supporters from Dubai, Bahrain, Azerbaijan, Hong Kong, Melbourne, Vancouver and Singapore. Later in the day I met up with some friends from Thurso, Glasgow and Belfast and we partied into the wee small hours. All the time interactions with locals were very friendly.
The next morning I got up early and made my way from Salford Quays into the City Centre, at 0900hrs in the morning the fan zone (sic) at Piccadilly Gardens was already more than 50% full and people were streaming into the area. I must admit to being disappointed in the fan zones – I visited two (the other being at Albert Square), there was little in the way of facilities (food, toilets etc), entertainment, and a severe lack of skips for rubbish. Anyone who takes a look at what is being provided currently in Moscow will see how it should be done. I have been to three CL finals and in each of those the fan zones were incredibly well organized – Manchester was very poorly prepared. However the lack of facilities does not excuse many who had over indulged for their behavior, it was unacceptable.
The game itself was a non-event form Rangers perspective, very disappointing. Coming back from the game through the centre of Manchester it was like a war zone – I really thought it would take them weeks to clean it up, but within 24 hours you would never know that anything had occurred.
The day after the final I spent doing a bit of a pub crawl around many of the traditional pubs and chop houses in the City Centre. During that time I spoke with many locals, none of whom seemed particularly concerned about what had occurred and stressed that overall the vast majority of Rangers fans had been well behaved and created a good atmosphere.
Personally it wasn’t until the Friday that I started to feel very depressed about what had happened, it was bad enough to lose the final, without the headlines that were on TV and in the newspapers – it has to be said that Rangers got a much better press from the local Manchester media than they did from the Scottish media.
Percy’s original post was meant as a social commentary, and I think that is very fair. There were some there in Blue who have different morals, standards and ethics than I. I suppose that is fair to say for any population, some people see nothing wrong with urinating in public – don’t get me wrong I have done it myself when needs must, but some just didn’t care. Some see nothing wrong with throwing litter on the street, the lack of bins argument is a strong one……..but on returning to my hotel I found the foyer and 24 hour bar full of Rangers fans, some of whom saw nothing wrong with disposing their empty pizza boxes, burger wrappers and other rubbish on the floor. But the one thing that REALLY shocked me was whilst I was walking back through the City Centre on Wednesday night. It is hard to describe the scene as the sheer volume of people with nowhere to go, or no means of getting somewhere meandered around, with Police continually moving them along a blanket of broken glass, empty bottles and cans and mountains of rubbish – I came upon a lassie of about 21/22 in a phone box, she was wearing a Rangers top, outside the phone box was parked a buggy with a baby of no more than 2 weeks old. What she was doing there God only knows, but she didn’t seem to be distressed. I stopped and pointed her out to a Policeman, who told me that he had already spoken to her and asked if she needed help, and she said no. I can only wonder what the hell was going on in her head.
Manchester is a great city and I will be back to visit again.
percy toboggan
20-May-08, 19:10
Give me a call next time S/b I'll buy you a pint.
Boozeburglar: I use 'Collins Concise' ...it's not that concise at all and is about four inches thick...other definitions for Kismet included fate and destiny...which is what I'd expected.
I've only got three friends...and I'd bet my house on none of them being 'homosexual'
I did once have a very good friend who turned out had a crush on me...he ended up in Australia I believe...the best place for him....ie.as far away from me as possible.I'd wondered why he was so attentive! At twenty odd I was rather more naive than I am today, and anyway most of 'em were still stuck in the closet!
Strangely the friendship didn't last....my wife never liked the man, or his missus much either.
I wonder if moscovites will have the same kind of clean up that Manchester had ?
There will be trouble,thats virtually guaranteed which is such a shame that the rivalry between Chelsea and united is so strong.
Personally I hope they have a good game as they are both very talented, its just a shame that they will fight on the streets of Moscow.
If I had to chose a winner(at the football :) ) it would be Chelsea as I am a City Fan and a Rangers fan and Chelsea are our brethern so it has to be 2-1 to the blues.
Metalattakk
21-May-08, 00:01
There will be trouble,thats virtually guaranteed which is such a shame that the rivalry between Chelsea and united is so strong.
Personally I hope they have a good game as they are both very talented, its just a shame that they will fight on the streets of Moscow.
It's far from certain that trouble will occur around this match. The local prices for alcohol (£4 a pint, at the very cheapest) would likely prohibit massive over-consumption.
So unless there are dedicated 'firms' travelling then I can't see any bother arising. It's maybe fairer to suggest that local Muscovite casuals would be more likely to start any trouble.
The Pepsi Challenge
21-May-08, 02:04
I was in Manchester from Tuesday to Friday last week; overall I had a great time, in a great City. It has been a while since I spent any time in Manchester and I was very impressed with the city and its people.
On the Tuesday I spent a fair bit of time in a pub called Briton’s Protection meeting friends from around the World who had arranged to gather there. Among those in the beer garden in the back were Broxi Bear (the Rangers Mascot) John Smeaton (the have a go hero of Glasgow Airport), Mark Hatley and Billy Semple (ex-Rangers players) along with Rangers Supporters from Dubai, Bahrain, Azerbaijan, Hong Kong, Melbourne, Vancouver and Singapore. Later in the day I met up with some friends from Thurso, Glasgow and Belfast and we partied into the wee small hours. All the time interactions with locals were very friendly.
The next morning I got up early and made my way from Salford Quays into the City Centre, at 0900hrs in the morning the fan zone (sic) at Piccadilly Gardens was already more than 50% full and people were streaming into the area. I must admit to being disappointed in the fan zones – I visited two (the other being at Albert Square), there was little in the way of facilities (food, toilets etc), entertainment, and a severe lack of skips for rubbish. Anyone who takes a look at what is being provided currently in Moscow will see how it should be done. I have been to three CL finals and in each of those the fan zones were incredibly well organized – Manchester was very poorly prepared. However the lack of facilities does not excuse many who had over indulged for their behavior, it was unacceptable.
The game itself was a non-event form Rangers perspective, very disappointing. Coming back from the game through the centre of Manchester it was like a war zone – I really thought it would take them weeks to clean it up, but within 24 hours you would never know that anything had occurred.
The day after the final I spent doing a bit of a pub crawl around many of the traditional pubs and chop houses in the City Centre. During that time I spoke with many locals, none of whom seemed particularly concerned about what had occurred and stressed that overall the vast majority of Rangers fans had been well behaved and created a good atmosphere.
Personally it wasn’t until the Friday that I started to feel very depressed about what had happened, it was bad enough to lose the final, without the headlines that were on TV and in the newspapers – it has to be said that Rangers got a much better press from the local Manchester media than they did from the Scottish media.
Percy’s original post was meant as a social commentary, and I think that is very fair. There were some there in Blue who have different morals, standards and ethics than I. I suppose that is fair to say for any population, some people see nothing wrong with urinating in public – don’t get me wrong I have done it myself when needs must, but some just didn’t care. Some see nothing wrong with throwing litter on the street, the lack of bins argument is a strong one……..but on returning to my hotel I found the foyer and 24 hour bar full of Rangers fans, some of whom saw nothing wrong with disposing their empty pizza boxes, burger wrappers and other rubbish on the floor. But the one thing that REALLY shocked me was whilst I was walking back through the City Centre on Wednesday night. It is hard to describe the scene as the sheer volume of people with nowhere to go, or no means of getting somewhere meandered around, with Police continually moving them along a blanket of broken glass, empty bottles and cans and mountains of rubbish – I came upon a lassie of about 21/22 in a phone box, she was wearing a Rangers top, outside the phone box was parked a buggy with a baby of no more than 2 weeks old. What she was doing there God only knows, but she didn’t seem to be distressed. I stopped and pointed her out to a Policeman, who told me that he had already spoken to her and asked if she needed help, and she said no. I can only wonder what the hell was going on in her head.
Manchester is a great city and I will be back to visit again.
Believe it or not, am just glad you came through it unscathed.
It's far from certain that trouble will occur around this match. The local prices for alcohol (£4 a pint, at the very cheapest) would likely prohibit massive over-consumption.
So unless there are dedicated 'firms' travelling then I can't see any bother arising. It's maybe fairer to suggest that local Muscovite casuals would be more likely to start any trouble.
I sincerely hope that you are right metal.
One thing though, if there is trouble do you think the media will show or write much after what happened in Manchester?. I think if there is there may be a "dumming down" of it as the FA and the government wont want any bad press.
Hope it goes trouble free, cmon the chelsea!! :)
Believe it or not, am just glad you came through it unscathed.
Believe it or not in the great scheme of things I have been in FAR more dangerous situations in Thurso.........but thanks for your concern.
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