View Full Version : Men's Rights .. Not Enough?
Lord Flasheart
11-May-08, 10:02
I have just had to deal with an irate lad from my team who is on leave because his wife has just had their first child. He is being called into work early.The reason he is being called into work is because a female colleague who is three months pregnant "doesnt feel well". I know the woman involved and she is now pregnant with her third child in just over three years, she has a history of "feeling unwell" on her rare appearances in the office. The Company has been paying this woman for little or no return "as she has hardly been here for the last three years) and it all has got in return is disruption, the lad is about to quit because as he sees it she seems to have more rights than him. A couple of weeks age he was refused permission to go home by my opposite number after his wife called and said she was worried about his son, my opposite number is female .. And the same person who has just given her fellow female time off.
I find it hard to disagree with the lad. I am also going to give my female opposite number a verbal post mortem she wont forget in a while.
No doubt the female orgers will (perhaps) be upset but is this really fair ??
I think Men have become marginalised lately, women seem to have rights for everything and it seems if they want their way they get it. Take the recent case of the female BA pilot who wanted to work part time after having a child. BA refused, she took them to court and won !!, never mind that BA had paid for all her training expecting a full time pilot in return. No, "female" rights take priority apparently.
My point of view is this ..
Women .. if you cant take the heat get out of the kitchen. Do the same as the men or move aside. Thats what equality is see ??, Men dont have the option of a career that we can work around our family so why should you ??
I agree with you entirely; there should be no such thing as womens' rights; it should always be human rights and each case considered on it's own merits, not their sex. As usual, there are the people who abuse the laws and company rules just as there are people who throw "sickies" just for a day off or to recover from some foolishness such as drinking heavily before a working day.
I really don't know what the answer is (legally) but I suggest that he throws a "sickie" if he is needed at home. After all, his wife could be carrying a future valuable member of society; not some layabout or chancer who abuses every right given to humanity.
If it is possible, he would be better looking for a company that values it's staff, male or female, instead of pandering to those who abuse laws which are meant to protect people. It really must be galling; no wonder he is angry.....
I absolutely agree with you - and I am a female!!!
The male is on paternity leave - why should he be brought back - would a female on maternity leave be forced back to cover him going on paternity leave, or a person on sick leave be brought back to cover someones maternity leave, he is on official authorised absense so why are the rules different?
Everyone should be treated equally - because a woman has given birth to a child why should the empoyer have to change her contract to the employers detriment frequently, have never been able to work that one out.
Fair enough keep the job - but it has to be the original job only, not for her deciding to change to part time or job-share as the whim takes.
I am female and also agree with the bloke being allowed to continue with his paternity leave. It is a LEGAL entitlement. The woman in question may genuinely be ill but the flack should not be taken by this particular bloke. Its the companies issue not his.
ciderally
11-May-08, 11:16
I am female and also agree with the bloke being allowed to continue with his paternity leave. It is a LEGAL entitlement. The woman in question may genuinely be ill but the flack should not be taken by this particular bloke. Its the companies issue not his.
yep im with you on this one...thinking i would be having a 1-2-1 with my manager on this..dont seem right at all ..isent there a union rep about?
I suspect that companies now err on the side of caution for the very reason that if an employee feels they are being 'discriminated' against, they have the ability to go to a employment tribunal and have the chance of winning big payouts. This is something some companies cannot afford to have happen.
torvaig is absolutely correct - it should come down to (I hate to use this much maligned phrase) human rights. Maybe "employee rights" is a better expression as HR tends to make me boak.
Sounds to me that the management is loath to pull this employee up on efficiency grounds. If I was the guy I would refuse to turn in if he is on official leave. Then when he gets pulled up take the firm to the cleaners...
I do recall someone (a man) who used to work for the same company as me taking the same two weeks off every year on the sick. It happened to be over Wimbledon fortnight. Nothing was ever done about it by the bosses yet it was plainly obvious to the workforce what this person was doing.
Lord Flasheart
11-May-08, 11:34
Well I have told the lad not to come in tomorrow.
I also told my opposite number that she doesnt decide what happens with members of my team, she hasnt had any children herself but told me "I have no clue what it is like to be pregnant" .. go figure. I cant see any cosy chats bewteen us anytime soon. The end result is that this lad will resign if forced to come into work. In the data logging field I work in he wont be unemployed for long and I dont see the point in losing a good worker for nothing.
I suspect I will be summoned tomorrow for a long interview with the boss but I am not fussed as I have broad shoulders. I will be working late anyway to cover for my guy. I would also like to add that some of the best workers in my experience have been women. Better telephone manners for a kickoff than blokes, and a lot of the ones I have met have a point to prove hence motivation and they will go far. I know there is a promotion coming up soon and I havent applied as I know who will get it. She deserves it and I personally have nicked a few of her tricks !!
I just get hacked off when I see women playing these games and office politics when they dont need to. The ones that pucker up, do the job and crack on go far in my experience.
And some are VERY easy on the eye .. ;)
This is not about reducing women's rights nor is it about increasing men's rights - its simply about enforcing all employee's rights equally. This man could and should bring an action for grievance against your woman colleage. He has parental rights too and if he has a sick child he has the right to go home. She is not treating him fairly and as such should be subject to an investigation. If she is doing this to one person then she is doing it to others both men and women. It might even be that its her attitude and lack of understanding that is behind the reason this woman is off sick. As an example. I had a baby last October. Our office is EXTREMELY hot during the summer so on several days I went to the staff room - generally mid afternoon when it got too hot for me and had a wee lie down and sometimes a sleep - usually about 20 minutes was enough - I set my alarm on my phone and then went back to work and was able to finish my day. Had my line manager not allowed me to do this then i would have been off sick but because they were flexible i was able to work a full day and make up the time at 5 o clock when it was often cooler.
If you get a row for this then i would point out that not only did you defuse an awkward situation, you also avoided a grievance case and potentially a case for constructive dismissal on the grounds of equality - a long potentially expensive and messy process
In addition Lord Fasheart - men DO have the same rights as women its jut that we dont expect a man to be the main carer so they rarely exert their rights. ALL employees have the right to ask for part time hours because of family responsibilities. Had it been a male pilot asking for part time hours then he could also have asked the courts for redress.
The case of the man being brought into work is an issue between him and the company and I don't see what it has got to do with the pregnant woman.
If she fell ill while pregnant and had to go home then I can't see what is wrong with that. Her baby's life is more important than work or any of the problems they incurr through her having to take time off.
If she has been constantly off sick then that should have been addressed a long time ago, never mind waiting 3 years then bleating about it when she has a genuine reason for taking time off.
percy toboggan
11-May-08, 16:57
The case of the man being brought into work is an issue between him and the company and I don't see what it has got to do with the pregnant woman.
.
That's it, in a nutshell.
I feel the company are sailing very close to the wind legally speaking. The man is legally entitled to his time off, as is the woman. If the man is called back to cover for the woman the company should be called to book. This is the companies problem not the man or womans problem. Some other member of staff should cover for the woman, not calling the man back in. (are you following this). Re her sickness record, that is a whole seperate issue and should have been dealt with and nipped in the bud long before her pregnancies.
I told my mum about this (she is a union rep) IHHO, the company can be done for being sexual discrimination as they are treating the man differently to the woman. A women would not be called back from maternity leave to cover some one elses work whereas it looks like this chap has been. Also the company are bordering on constructive dismissal if this chap feels he is being forced out as he does not wish to work when his child is ill or when he is on paternity leave.
As peeps from Squidge onwards say, this is not about 'men's rights and 'womens' rights, this is about a particular member of staff, treating people differently for whatever their reason is. THis is about an individual not doing their job properly not 'women' or 'men' doing things wrong.
I remember years ago being told by a potential employer that he would not give me a job because I had children - he was not interested in my domestic arrangements, just had a policy of not employing women with children.
Now things have swung too far the other way and it's very sad that so many women take advantage of their new rights and forget their responsibilities to their job and employer. Men have just as much right to paternity leave as women have to maternity but neither should abuse those rights and any woman who so regularly produces children but still expects to keep her job is taking advantage. No-one is forced to have children - they're a responsibility, not a right. So is a job. Sometimes you have to choose.
that is really bad this new dad is entitled to take his leave to spend it with his new baby, seems to me he is missing out because he is a male, which is all wrong.
How does this issue affect the self-employed guys and gals? I am genuinely interested here and not playing Devil's advocate.
Bobinovich
12-May-08, 22:07
As a self-employed bloke I was fortunate to be at both bairns births. I gave my OH support at numerous times throught the day and evening, and did my main work at night times so that she got as good a sleep as possible. With the 2nd one I even managed to pop in from my nearby office to take turns at nappy changing when I could (much to the amusement of my OH's visiting friends)!
Because of that I didn't need to take paternity leave - I could work around the family needs. It's probably just as well as time off is not the easiest thing to arrange without plenty of advance planning - one of the main pitfalls of self-employment.
Thanks for that Bob. I was thinking more of a self-employed partner who is forced to work away from home most of the time. Are they entitled to the same paternity rights as employed folks or do they have to fight their way through the red tape?
the rules,if there are any, seem to be very bendy and bend to benefit some more than others . there is a total lack of love thy neighbour
i find this horrible! poor man! just thinking back to when i had my boys, and i despratly need hubby at home with me. i dont think i would have coped on my own!
men have every right to their paternity leave.
Lord Flasheart
13-May-08, 10:06
Just to update.
Well the lad quit. The Boss pulled me and my opposite number in and he basically told me I had no right to "have a go" at her. The fact that she went over my head and told a member of my team what to do, whilst favouring a member of her own was overlooked. As was the fact she did not follow proper proceedure. My boss is petrified of upsetting the females and the possible litigation that could bring. So we are down one good lad on my team and my opposite number has been given total power over everyone in the office it seems. She is currently stalking the office like a cheshire cat, but I am biding my time. To amuse myself just now though I content myself with the fact that she wouldnt be smiling half as wide as she is if she knew what I wiped the rim of her coffee cup with .. [evil]
The lad has found a new job with our biggest rival and he is also slightly better off, so he is happy (they are letting him take his entitled time off too !!) I have also been approached by them and will be high tailing it as well. I havent told the Boss this as I am going the spend the next week or so gathering all the useful info I can to take to my new place of work !!
My written warning has just arrived and I returned it to my Boss with precise instructions on where and how to insert it, along with a requisition order for a spine.
Subtlety was never my forte.
Valerie Campbell
13-May-08, 10:44
I think this is absolutely disgraceful. As a parting shot you should copy everyone in your office in an e-mail, from top to bottom, and tell them what's happened, how you feel about it and how company policy should change. I sincerely wish you well and hope your 'lad' is much happier in his new post.
Lord Flasheart
13-May-08, 12:20
I think this is absolutely disgraceful. As a parting shot you should copy everyone in your office in an e-mail, from top to bottom, and tell them what's happened, how you feel about it and how company policy should change. I sincerely wish you well and hope your 'lad' is much happier in his new post.
Cheers,
Im off on holiday !!, got about 6 weeks between starting anew. I am taking a slight pay cut but I dont care, there is no point in telling the higher ups here anything they dont want to hear. The lads happy, I am happy and thats the main thing. My opposite number has aked me to ensure my side of things is left tidy .. fat chance. Its going to resemble a bombsite. The Company has a reputation in the buisness that I never really believed before I joined but I do now !!, I am just lucky enough to work in a specialised field that I can pick and choose at the moment. Plus I will not be spending all of my time in the office in the new job and will be more "hands on", all good really.
ciderally
13-May-08, 12:38
good luck on your new job...sounds like you will be much happier with all thats going on in that place your in just now....the loss is thiers.... now you can relax and have a good holiday
YummyMummy
13-May-08, 15:27
I’m coming in a bit late, but agree with previous replies. This isn’t anything to do with woman’s v’s man’s rights, but basic company management of its workforce. To not send a pregnant woman home when she feels unwell is unethical. To ask a man to come in from paternity leave is unprincipled in the extreme. There is something seriously amiss when a company has let a 3 year sickness record problem go on for so long. In addition, the man in question has grounds for constructive dismissal.
But, by now, Lord Flasheart, you know the company are not as scrupulous as they could be.
Just for the record Lord Flasheart, and with the greatest respect, those of us working parents that sustain the heat of the kitchen (and that’s women AND men) are in a different league entirely and should be commended rather than scorned. Synonymous to plate-spinning…..all day, every day.
Some women manage all that as well as being “VERY easy on the eye too” – the achievements of some woman just take your breath away……..
Just to update.
Well the lad quit. The Boss pulled me and my opposite number in and he basically told me I had no right to "have a go" at her. The fact that she went over my head and told a member of my team what to do, whilst favouring a member of her own was overlooked. As was the fact she did not follow proper proceedure. My boss is petrified of upsetting the females and the possible litigation that could bring. So we are down one good lad on my team and my opposite number has been given total power over everyone in the office it seems. She is currently stalking the office like a cheshire cat, but I am biding my time. To amuse myself just now though I content myself with the fact that she wouldnt be smiling half as wide as she is if she knew what I wiped the rim of her coffee cup with .. [evil]
The lad has found a new job with our biggest rival and he is also slightly better off, so he is happy (they are letting him take his entitled time off too !!) I have also been approached by them and will be high tailing it as well. I havent told the Boss this as I am going the spend the next week or so gathering all the useful info I can to take to my new place of work !!
My written warning has just arrived and I returned it to my Boss with precise instructions on where and how to insert it, along with a requisition order for a spine.
Subtlety was never my forte.good on you for sticking to what you believe in, so many people would have just rolled over and got on with it.
Personally Lord Flasheart I think you'd of been better off keeping your nose out of business which quite frankly had nothing to do with you.. Yeah Im all for equal rights, but to be honest you deserved a written warning and maybe more especially if your peers knew you have aired what happens to be a private matter, so much for confidentiality for the pregnant lady involved, what about her right not to have, how will I put it, rubbish all over Caithness.ORG....
Just to update.
Well the lad quit. The Boss pulled me and my opposite number in and he basically told me I had no right to "have a go" at her. The fact that she went over my head and told a member of my team what to do, whilst favouring a member of her own was overlooked. As was the fact she did not follow proper proceedure. My boss is petrified of upsetting the females and the possible litigation that could bring. So we are down one good lad on my team and my opposite number has been given total power over everyone in the office it seems. She is currently stalking the office like a cheshire cat, but I am biding my time. To amuse myself just now though I content myself with the fact that she wouldnt be smiling half as wide as she is if she knew what I wiped the rim of her coffee cup with .. [evil]
The lad has found a new job with our biggest rival and he is also slightly better off, so he is happy (they are letting him take his entitled time off too !!) I have also been approached by them and will be high tailing it as well. I havent told the Boss this as I am going the spend the next week or so gathering all the useful info I can to take to my new place of work !!
My written warning has just arrived and I returned it to my Boss with precise instructions on where and how to insert it, along with a requisition order for a spine.
Subtlety was never my forte.
Well done good to see someone sticking up for others and great it worked out to both your benefits :Razz
Personally Lord Flasheart I think you'd of been better off keeping your nose out of business which quite frankly had nothing to do with you.. Yeah Im all for equal rights, but to be honest you deserved a written warning and maybe more especially if your peers knew you have aired what happens to be a private matter, so much for confidentiality for the pregnant lady involved, what about her right not to have, how will I put it, rubbish all over Caithness.ORG....
And you know who Lord Flasheart works for and his identity and those of whom he speaks?
I applaud his stance.
To be upfront about it...........I feel that employment law is an ass.......and I see no need for all the rights for pregnant females or people with families.
As far as I'm concerned, having a family is a choice you make for yourself, and I see no need to penalise any employer, or fellow workers, because you have made that choice.
I never had a problem with organising my working life around my family, and can't see why other people have to take up the slack to allow their workmates to have it all.
And you know who Lord Flasheart works for and his identity and those of whom he speaks?
I applaud his stance.
To be upfront about it...........I feel that employment law is an ass.......and I see no need for all the rights for pregnant females or people with families.
As far as I'm concerned, having a family is a choice you make for yourself, and I see no need to penalise any employer, or fellow workers, because you have made that choice.
I never had a problem with organising my working life around my family, and can't see why other people have to take up the slack to allow their workmates to have it all.
Its not the law thats at fault, its the people who abuse it, be they employers or employees.
Ellimac
It was his business, so where did u get that from, The lad who quit worked under him, its his job to see that the well being of his staff is addressed. A huge pat on the back for Lord flashheart.
I think that if a girlie is pregnant they do need special attention and looking after a little bit more, but not at the expense of others.
I too feel that a woman has many, many more rights then men especially when it comes to families, I dont blame women its the legal system that is wrong. you look at things like families splitting etc. The "fathers for justice" crew who have been demonstating in fancy dress prove that fathers are just a good a parent as a mother. The legal system sucks when it comes to parental rights and employment rights and its not the fault of male or female alike.
Thats my little rant over :)
I did have to think a bit when saw this posted but no names are mentioned and an injustice is highlighted I don't think it is that bad the poster seems to have taken great care not to mention people or company names even though he is now leaving the company seems fair enough to me :Razz
Ellimac
if a work colleague cannot stand up for another without fear of warnings, written or verbal it is a very bad show - where does your company stand on working laws - the company law of the land is what is being discussed here - not personalities.
No company names, no identities were raised until you have made it very obvious this company is based in the north east of Scotland as you obviously know LF.
If your company kept to the governments rules there would be no problem to solve so it is the company's own Human Resource Team who need a bit of a sort out
I do not live in Caithness but I personally find your very small minded attitude typical of some of the minority in Caithness - because you know LF is no need to assume everyone else does - that is why we have our "NAMES", so we are anonymous and can discuss anything we wish anonymously with no comeback - time you grew up into this big wide world.
Lord Flasheart
16-May-08, 12:08
Personally Lord Flasheart I think you'd of been better off keeping your nose out of business which quite frankly had nothing to do with you.. Yeah Im all for equal rights, but to be honest you deserved a written warning and maybe more especially if your peers knew you have aired what happens to be a private matter, so much for confidentiality for the pregnant lady involved, what about her right not to have, how will I put it, rubbish all over Caithness.ORG....
The Company is not British and the office is a long way from Caithness.
The lad affected was a part of MY team therefore when HIS rights were breached it WAS my buisness. Did you actually read the post ??, top tip for you .. if you do you can make an informed post and avoid making yourself look .. how can I say this .. foolish ??
And no one else in the office even knows about the Org. Her confidentiality was never breached as no personal information was ever given. I would LOVE to see her make a complaint though after the way her and her Boss colluded together to manipulate a situation and break the rules.
If you think this situation was a lot of "rubbish" then the major players at the company disagree as they are in a right panic about a situation that has led to the loss of two good employees.
If you want to comment further then please PM me .. *takes gloves off*
[quote=Lord Flasheart;384585]The Company is not British and the office is a long way from Caithness.
The lad affected was a part of MY team therefore when HIS rights were breached it WAS my buisness. Did you actually read the post ??, top tip for you .. if you do you can make an informed post and avoid making yourself look .. how can I say this .. foolish ??
And no one else in the office even knows about the Org. Her confidentiality was never breached as no personal information was ever given. I would LOVE to see her make a complaint though after the way her and her Boss colluded together to manipulate a situation and break the rules.
If you think this situation was a lot of "rubbish" then the major players at the company disagree as they are in a right panic about a situation that has led to the loss of two good employees.
If you want to comment further then please PM me .. *takes gloves off*[/quote
haha too true
Just to update.
Well the lad quit. The Boss pulled me and my opposite number in and he basically told me I had no right to "have a go" at her. The fact that she went over my head and told a member of my team what to do, whilst favouring a member of her own was overlooked. As was the fact she did not follow proper proceedure. My boss is petrified of upsetting the females and the possible litigation that could bring. So we are down one good lad on my team and my opposite number has been given total power over everyone in the office it seems. She is currently stalking the office like a cheshire cat, but I am biding my time. To amuse myself just now though I content myself with the fact that she wouldnt be smiling half as wide as she is if she knew what I wiped the rim of her coffee cup with .. [evil]
The lad has found a new job with our biggest rival and he is also slightly better off, so he is happy (they are letting him take his entitled time off too !!) I have also been approached by them and will be high tailing it as well. I havent told the Boss this as I am going the spend the next week or so gathering all the useful info I can to take to my new place of work !!
My written warning has just arrived and I returned it to my Boss with precise instructions on where and how to insert it, along with a requisition order for a spine.
Subtlety was never my forte.
You sound like a really fair,nice guy,you stick to what you think is right for your team men and woman a like wish you were my team leader!!
I have just had to deal with an irate lad from my team who is on leave because his wife has just had their first child. He is being called into work early.The reason he is being called into work is because a female colleague who is three months pregnant "doesnt feel well". I know the woman involved and she is now pregnant with her third child in just over three years, she has a history of "feeling unwell" on her rare appearances in the office. The Company has been paying this woman for little or no return "as she has hardly been here for the last three years) and it all has got in return is disruption, the lad is about to quit because as he sees it she seems to have more rights than him. A couple of weeks age he was refused permission to go home by my opposite number after his wife called and said she was worried about his son, my opposite number is female .. And the same person who has just given her fellow female time off.
I find it hard to disagree with the lad. I am also going to give my female opposite number a verbal post mortem she wont forget in a while.
No doubt the female orgers will (perhaps) be upset but is this really fair ??
I think Men have become marginalised lately, women seem to have rights for everything and it seems if they want their way they get it. Take the recent case of the female BA pilot who wanted to work part time after having a child. BA refused, she took them to court and won !!, never mind that BA had paid for all her training expecting a full time pilot in return. No, "female" rights take priority apparently.
My point of view is this ..
Women .. if you cant take the heat get out of the kitchen. Do the same as the men or move aside. Thats what equality is see ??, Men dont have the option of a career that we can work around our family so why should you ??
Sure souonds like sex discrimination to me. He should raise it with his union or with someone from the Citizens' Advice Bureau.
Lord Flasheart
19-May-08, 07:56
The latest I heard was that there is a bit of a hoo ha in the office because the woman was sent straight home and by her own admisson sought no medical advice (despite a trained first aider being in the section) she didnt even contact her Doctor until two days later and only then because she needed a sick note. If nothing else the Company should have made her seek help as they have a duty of care towards their employees. Personally I think this stinks to high heaven, if she DID feel unwell it shows a bit of a casual attitude towards the health of her unborn child to say the least.
I reckon she just fancied some time off and got her team leader to sign her off and call my lad in to cover, problem is it all blew up in their faces when the lad resisted and I backed him up. I have also been told that my (ex) opposites actions in breaking proccedure have been overlooked as in the words of my ex Boss "it was an emotionally charged situation", anyway my desk is cleared and I dont have to go back.
I am also told the laxative that I laced my nemesis's coffee cup with worked a treat .. :lol:
I am also told the laxative that I laced my nemesis's coffee cup with worked a treat .. [/quote]
Maybe this should go in the confessional thread I started. ;) :lol:
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