View Full Version : Do-gooding Isn't Working
Isn't it time all we decent people lobbied our politician's to say enough is enough with giving criminal's an easy life? Almost every day we hear of murder/rape/child abduction etc. and because we hear it so often it doesn't shock anymore.
It used to be that prisoner's served a full sentence in solitary and tough conditions. Along came the Quaker's and over the years prisoner's started to get an easy life and "right's". We all know that prisoner's and criminal's have had it so easy for so long that a sentence from a court is virtually meaningless-they won't serve the full sentence or get paltry fine's.
The do-gooder's have had their way, it doesn't work. Get that- IT DOESN'T WORK.
Why should law abiding people be afraid to go out at night, in case they get mugged by group's of feral youth's? Why should we feel the need to keep a closer watch on kid's and restrict their freedom because of too many pervert's are allowed to roam free? Why doesn't life mean life?
They chose to commit a crime and the sentence handed down must be served with no remission for good behaviour, a complete loss of liberty and comfort's that they had outside of prison. If they couldn't be good on the outside why reward them inside?
I was born in '65 and growing up learned of the atrocities of Brady and Hindley. In the 1970's there was the Black Panther and Yorkshire Ripper. One year on Madeline McCann is still missing. Hasn't the country had enough?
This is the 21st century for God's sake, it's time for politician's to wake up and do what they were elected to do-serve the people, the decent majority- not the handwringing soft soap liberal minority.
ciderally
03-May-08, 06:53
i say they should loose all rights if convicted...bring back the chain-gang...even a few days on a crappy diet would change thier minds about coming back to jail....
percy toboggan
03-May-08, 08:34
Joxville...you are absolutely right.
I doubt many will disagree.
I urge you to cut and paste your concerns and forward them to your Member of Parliament. Better still, if you feel so strongly...send him/her a handwritten letter.
Carries more weight.
Interestingly a report recently suggested that when given the opportunity many prisoners would prefer not to escape. What sort of lives must they have outside jail that they prefer prison to their homes?
Boozeburglar
03-May-08, 09:52
Better still, if you feel so strongly...send him/her a handwritten letter.
Carries more weight.
Stick a few paper clips on it and it will carry more weight.
Seriously though, you have a point.
I can see the need for the option to allow people privileges and sentence reduction for 'good behaviour'; but the original sentence should fit the crime in the first place.
Where stats show that rehabilitation is unlikely amend sentences accordingly, in the name of protecting society.
We would not allow a car manufacturer to sell a vehicle that had a proven one in a thousand failure rate that was likely to result in death, so why do we let killers out if they are still a risk?
Indeterminate sentences have been attacked on the basis that some prisoners have not had access to assessment to prove they are no longer a risk and are thus left in jail.
Well boo hoo!
If you choose to rape, murder or molest someone, perhaps there are priorities for the coin of Joe Public other than funding your therapy sessions.
They are claiming we don't have enough room to keep all the bad people locked up. Why do they keep locking up people for not paying their Council Tax then?
I reckon a third of the current prison population could be released into community based monitoring and rehabilitation, at less cost to the taxpayer, and there would then be no pressure to release the people who are not assessed as minimal risk.
percy toboggan
03-May-08, 16:43
Interestingly a report recently suggested that when given the opportunity many prisoners would prefer not to escape. What sort of lives must they have outside jail that they prefer prison to their homes?
Warm hearted, liberal Squidge strikes again....
I'd turn your question around and ask what kind of a life must they have in prison, to prefer it to their homes.
I can, in part answer your question. A life of responsibility...where there are decisions. Like how do I earn enough today to keep myself dry, warm and fed....usual choice...steal it from someone else.
Half the recidivist prison population is a millstone around our necks. We need a party of imagination to come up with ideas of encouragement. Shape up, or ship 'em out to somewhere cold and damp. Australia was not the answer.
Warm hearted, liberal Squidge strikes again....
I'd turn your question around and ask what kind of a life must they have in prison, to prefer it to their homes.
I can, in part answer your question. A life of responsibility...where there are decisions. Like how do I earn enough today to keep myself dry, warm and fed....usual choice...steal it from someone else.
Half the recidivist prison population is a millstone around our necks. We need a party of imagination to come up with ideas of encouragement. Shape up, or ship 'em out to somewhere cold and damp. Australia was not the answer.
Yes, that is the perfect answer-maybe Rockall out in the North Atlantic! For those of you unfamiliar with Rockall do a search on Wikipaedia!
Warm hearted, liberal Squidge strikes again....
I'd turn your question around and ask what kind of a life must they have in prison, to prefer it to their homes.
See percy you ALWAYS do that!!!!! You pat me on the head and treat me like an imbecile. Sometimes your responses remind me of television sketches where the "good little woman" isnt supposes to have opinions about society and politics!!!!!
Its a serious question. You would never think that prison would be a better option than your life would you? so what is it that makes life in prison better than what they have at home? What is it that makes some teenagers feel that their home life is so bad they would do anything to get out? Why do so many of our youngsters end up in prison and if they end up in prison why are they not worked with to ensure they have options when they come out and DONT go back inside.
Prison isnt working full stop but thankfully we have moved on from the hang draw and quartering that used to go on in the middle ages. Is the choice to commit a crime really a choice and having committed criminal acts - whatever they might be - do we REALLY believe that people cant change or cant move on and turn into productive members of society? Do you and others not have some ex-offenders within your circle of friends? Have you never met or talked to people who have commited offences and have moved on, to see what the difference is or are you simply developing your opinions about criminals from the pages of the Daily Mail?
percy toboggan
03-May-08, 18:16
See percy you ALWAYS do that!!!!! You pat me on the head and treat me like an imbecile. Sometimes your responses remind me of television sketches where the "good little woman" isnt supposes to have opinions about society and politics!!!!!
Its a serious question. You would never think that prison would be a better option than your life would you? so what is it that makes life in prison better than what they have at home? What is it that makes some teenagers feel that their home life is so bad they would do anything to get out? Why do so many of our youngsters end up in prison and if they end up in prison why are they not worked with to ensure they have options when they come out and DONT go back inside.
Prison isnt working full stop but thankfully we have moved on from the hang draw and quartering that used to go on in the middle ages. Is the choice to commit a crime really a choice and having committed criminal acts - whatever they might be - do we REALLY believe that people cant change or cant move on and turn into productive members of society? Do you and others not have some ex-offenders within your circle of friends? Have you never met or talked to people who have commited offences and have moved on, to see what the difference is or are you simply developing your opinions about criminals from the pages of the Daily Mail?
Well...gosh...calm down a bit . Have I touched a nerve perhaps...seems like it.
For a start...young people usually end in Prison only after dozens of chances to avoid it. First time offenders up to seventh, eighth times offenders....authoritites bend over backwards....various agencies leap on 'their case' to see what can be done. It's often a waste of time. If a youngster does wrong...and the intervention of Uniforms is not enough to mortify the parents...let alone the child then the future is set...a criminal future.
I don't like scroats...and I certainly do not list any amongst my friends...why? because I'm fussy.
I do however have a Prison Officer in my close family.
Again you mention my choice of newspaper...quite why baffles me, but it's symptomatic of the paucity of your argument. Do you assume it sets my agenda? Credit me with more intelligence, please.
Incidentally, why do accuse me of sidelining the opinions of women? :confused I often rate their opinions much higher than males by simple virtue of the fact they are female...because the educated ones, and the instinctive well balanced ones are often brighter and more intuitive than most men. I include myself here.
There are many ex-offender's who learned that prison wasn't for them and have gone on to make a contribution to society and I believe some prisoners should get that chance. However why are prison's so over-crowded now? It's because of the continual soft touch from courts and human right's groups that make repeat-offending so easy to do.
I don't care what the wishy-washy, do-gooder's think-they've had their way and it hasn't worked. Being tough is the answer. If you make prison as harsh as possible then you'll get less repeat-offender's.
I don't claim to have the answer's-that's what we elect a Government for. I just wish they would start listening to us for a change, the honest tax-payers, and put our rights first.
A knee jerk reaction percy which comes from your patronising of my opinions - thats all:roll:
See the descriptions "warm hearted liberal" and "wishy washy do gooders" ( thanks joxville) - I dont know what they mean - i only know that I have seen them used as a dismissive comment which is designed to patronise and belittle an alternative opinion without actually exploring what that opinion is.
Ok lets see - I beleive people should and must be punished for their crimes. I dont beleive people are beyond redemption or that all ex offenders are "scroats". I do not beleive prison works and i particularly dont beleive it works for young offenders. I think there are some criminals that have to be locked up for life and i beleive that the time to release a criminal should and must be only decided by the judiciary on advice from people working with the offender and not decided by politicians intent on winning a popularity contest. I do not beleive that locking up sex offenders for ever is the answer to dealing with crimes of that type either
I think it is vital that we prevent and minimise youth offending by examining the social issues that can and do lead to children becoming involved in crime. Then if a crime is committed we need to have properly implemented and funded options for the children concerned to try to prevent them re offending - these can be community service orders or volunteering programmes or programmes that make the offenders face the victims of their crimes. I think that many times these programmes arent funded properly or are not given enough time to make a difference and actually when they are successful they dont get media coverage because whipping the public up into a frenzy over "out of control britain" is the way papers sell papers.
Given that the current prison population is at full capacity we absolutely HAVE to start to fund rehabilitation programmes and prevention programmes or we are going to be building a new prison next to you and you and you oh yes and you over there - and how much the NIMBYS will like that.
As for wishy washy and do gooders well ... I listend to Shy Keenan ( phoenixsurvivors.org) on the radio the other day - given that someone who has lived the life she has and suffered the way she has I think she could be forgiven for thinking shooting and throwing away the key is the answer to dealing with paedophiles - however she recognised that is not an option and listed a whole range of measures that were interesting and well thought out and would provide better safer and more secure monitoring of child sex offenders increasing the safety of children and others at risk from this sort of crime. HArdly wishy washy or a liberal do gooder
Interestingly i found this statistic -
Prison costs £37,000 a year per head. The Audit Commission estimated that spending £42,000 on early interventions from birth through adolescence would spare £153,000 on subsequent incarceration.
on this website http://www.judgesandmagistrates.org/l0904.htm I rummaged around and found nothing to tell me that it was flawed information although it was from 2004. Why do we refuse to see that early intervention to deal with social issues can and does prevent offending? Why is it that when this is offered as an opinion people are dismissed as woolly minded liberal do gooders?
And as for your choice of papers? I dont know if you read the daily mail or the financial times Percy to be honest - i just find the Mail and the Express particularly partial to that brand of reporting that i like to call tabloid hysterical journalism
I think it is vital that we prevent and minimise youth offending by examining the social issues that can and do lead to children becoming involved in crime. Then if a crime is committed we need to have properly implemented and funded options for the children concerned to try to prevent them re offending - these can be community service orders or volunteering programmes or programmes that make the offenders face the victims of their crimes. I think that many times these programmes arent funded properly or are not given enough time to make a difference and actually when they are successful they dont get media coverage because whipping the public up into a frenzy over "out of control britain" is the way papers sell papers.
Interestingly i found this statistic -
Prison costs £37,000 a year per head. The Audit Commission estimated that spending £42,000 on early interventions from birth through adolescence would spare £153,000 on subsequent incarceration
I don't buy newspapers so am not swayed by sensationalist tabloid journalism. As for the programmes and the cost's you mention, well don't you think various schemes have been tried over the years and countless millions spent and for what? Where has it gotten us? A sick society and a society that is sick of crime and being absolutley powerless to stop it. A tough sentencing policy will save millions and save having to build more prisons.
If every member of the .org wrote to Gordon Brown and said we've had enough, it's time for life to mean life, do you think he'd listen to our pleas? We are not enough but what is it going to take for those in power to listen to us?
.... being absolutley powerless to stop it. A tough sentencing policy will save millions and save having to build more prisons.
How? More people are being sent to prison than ever before in fact something like 10 times more shoplifters are being imprisoned than ten years ago... so how is tougher longer and more sentencing going to save millions and save having to build more prisons?
How? More people are being sent to prison than ever before in fact something like 10 times more shoplifters are being imprisoned than ten years ago... so how is tougher longer and more sentencing going to save millions and save having to build more prisons?
Don't you get it? For years a soft sentencing policy has resulted in the situation we now have. It may be a fact more shoplifters are being imprisoned but for how long? 3 or 6 months with time off for good behaviour. How many times have they offended before being caught?, or how many times have they been fined before being given a custodial sentence?
Try this for size:
Shoplifting=12 months with no remission.
Car theft=3 years with no remission.
Arson for insurance purposes=10 years with no remission.
Arson with loss of life=Life term, no parole.
Rape=Life,no parole.
Murder= Life, no parole.
No home comforts and everyone to be kept in solitary.
That is what I call being tough. Isn't the thought of those conditions enough of a deterrent.
Tough conditions=less criminals=less crime=less prisons=money saved.
Ok i see - but what happens when the case isnt as black and white as that - take shoplifting for example.... its sometimes the case that shoplifting is a cry for help would that be an automatic 12 month sentence too? Then what about criminal damage? not paying your council tax? what about sexual assualt? what about manslaughter? Crimes seldom fit into a simple little box... they just dont - thats why the judges have some discretion to make the decision about the length of sentence -they dont always get it right but they have to be able to excercise some compassion and judgement otherwise we could just do it by computer. I can understand what you are saying but i dont think that tough prisons would work as a deterrent - they have horrible terrifying prisons in america and they dont deter people from committing crimes.
Ok, so things aren't black & white, I recognise there are no easy answers and yes, there may be reasons for doing the crime but surely being tougher will help prevent the career criminal? That is the crux of the problem-being too soft, regardless of the crime, has brought us where we are today. That's all I ask, for crime to be tackled head on, a proper full scale review that the country can believe in instead of constantly hearing politicians promise to be tough on crime but nothing ever changes.
The crazy thing is that the justice system is so soft in this country that it is now worth taking the punishment.
If for example some wacko attacked my girlfriend, they would most likely get off with it. If then I 'accidentally' ran him over as he walked out of court and he popped his clogs, then I know I would if caught get 15 years max, and probably less as it was an 'accident' involving a car. Thus I get 5 years for manslaughter and a 3 year driving ban.
Yup, its worth it. [lol]
Metalattakk
04-May-08, 01:49
If for example some wacko attacked my girlfriend, they would most likely get off with it.
Prove it.
'Most likely' doesn't cut the cheese, I'm afraid.
From what I recall from careful studies, tougher prison conditions and longer sentences generally aren't the effective deterrents some people might naively expect.
Moi x
The crazy thing is that the justice system is so soft in this country that it is now worth taking the punishment.
Is it worth it for us? Would we prefer three years in prison to three years in our nice warm loving home? When we were kids was the thought of a secure unit better than our home life? Did the life we led as a child mean that ANYTHING was preferable to being at home?
I firmly believe that social problems lead to law breaking. It is about family but not about about single moms being the root of all problems or that broken homes lead to criminal behaviour - im a single mum who left my ex husband and had three boys to bring up so I KNOW we can do a good job. Its about the network of people who support and help the parent through the minefield of being a good one - especially if they havent had a good role model as a parent themselves. That doesnt exist in many areas. It IS
about discipline though not the lets bring back the strap sort of discipline. Its about being able to say no and not being embarrassed to discipline your child in public and it's immaterial whether that includes a smacked bottom for a young child or knocking on a teenagers door to drag your child out of a party when he has overstepped his curfew. It IS about respect which young children can only learn from parents and carers - how do you teach your own child respect if your own father used to spit at you? How do you deal with a child who is gobby and rude if you are used to being spoken to like that?
Of course not all criminals are the result of society's problems and not all children from a difficult background become criminals but tackling some of the social problems children and families face and helping parents with programmes to assist and support them can help prevent children from becoming criminals.
If they become offenders then offering a variety of options for young offenders that are properly funded and truly address their problems and issues and confront their bad behaviour head on also can prevent offenders from becoming "career criminals".
Where it doesnt work and people break the law and find themselves in prison then lets work within prison to prevent them re offending - education, support, drug treatment programmes, lets really work hard to make sure that they have no excuse for re offending.
If they are a career criminal then lets punish them, lets make sure judges are making the right decisions about sentencing, lets make sure that systems to monitor and deal with hard core offenders actually work - that people do their jobs properly and that offenders are punished in a fair and just manner befitting a civilised society - if thats locking up for life then thats fine, if its being tagged and supervised then lets make damn sure that the tagging and supervison is properly carried out and funded properly.
Some of these things exist already but its disjointed and a bit hit and miss. Where its good it does work, to make sure its good everywhere will ll be expensive but I would hazard a guess that in the long run its less expensive than waiting til they all get tot he prison stage and locking them up and throwing away the key. And not simply expensive in cash but expensive in the waste of lives - lives that with a bit of work can turn around and become productive and useful members in society. Despite Percy labelling all ex offenders "scroats" Im sure there are many of us here who count amongst friends relatives and acquaintances people who were on the wrong side of the law and yet have gone on to live productive lives so it can be done. WE should be making it easier to be that way rather than easier to re offend.
Originally posted by Squidge. "I firmly believe that social problems lead to law breaking. It is about family but not about about single moms being the root of all problems or that broken homes lead to criminal behaviour - im a single mum who left my ex husband and had three boys to bring up so I KNOW we can do a good job. Its about the network of people who support and help the parent through the minefield of being a good one - especially if they havent had a good role model as a parent themselves".
I'm with you on that. My father died when I was 7 yrs old yet my siblings and I still grew up to be decent members of society. Although my mother obviously had to then raise us single-handedly, she instilled in us a respect for our elder's and society, which sadly a lot of families around us with both parents didn't do.
I live in Hampshire and my son lives in Thurso with my ex-wife but even at this distance I still chastise him on the phone if I think he's mis-behaving, and try to teach him respect for others, as does his mother.
Too many times over the years I've heard people, and I include former friends here too, claim in court it's because they were unemployed/on drugs/peer pressure. That doesn't wash with me. I myself was on the dole for 2 years, as was my younger brother, but it didn't make us go out and do drugs/muggings/theft etc.
So maybe a network of support would help,and parents accepting they have a duty towards teaching their kids respect for others, may bring a reduction in crime.
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