View Full Version : Austrian 'hid daughter in cellar'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7369851.stm
This story horrified me. The man kept his daughter prisoner and abused her producing 7 children, one of a set of twins died and was cremated by the father. I am feeling totally sickened how someone can get away with this for so long. 24 years this woman endured this. [evil]
porshiepoo
27-Apr-08, 18:37
OMG. I wonder how many others there are still out there! :(
this poor womans life is now ruined thanks to this man that was supposed to care for her, not abuse her the way he did, i wonder what will happen to the kids.
Personally I'd lock him up in a dark damp cellar for the rest of his days, fed only stale bread and water! At least the woman and her children are now free and hopefully will find some peace one day.
Wot sickend me was the mother of the woman knew about what was going on and was looking after some of the children
Margaret M.
27-Apr-08, 23:21
If he is guilty, I hope he roasts in hell. Allegedly, he had been abusing his daughter since she was 11 years old, even before he locked her in the cellar, so that was 31 years of being molested by that demented monster. It said in the article that the mother allegedly did not know -- how could she not? If the accusations are fact, the stinky old creep had to be scurrying around delivering babies and taking food and hopefully clothing to his captives -- how could his wife not notice that? I cannot even think what a fitting punishment would be for something this horrendous. As Porshiepoo says, it makes one wonder how many are enduring this alleged fate that we may never hear about.
Wouldn't it be reasonable to wait until he is proved guilty before getting the Fiery Torches and the pitchforks out?
Metalattakk
28-Apr-08, 02:18
Wouldn't it be reasonable to wait until he is proved guilty before getting the Fiery Torches and the pitchforks out?
GRRR!!!
How very dare you to introduce reason and common sense into this worthwhile and fully justified witch-hunt. [evil]
;)
Margaret M.
28-Apr-08, 02:41
GRRR!!!
How very dare you to introduce reason and common sense into this worthwhile and fully justified witch-hunt. [evil]
;)
You and TBH are both so right! I've been in meetings all weekend -- long borrrring meetings and my mind is mush. The possibility that he is being wrongly accused crossed my mind but the red I saw took over. My bad.
GRRR!!!
How very dare you to introduce reason and common sense into this worthwhile and fully justified witch-hunt. [evil]
My apologies, Metalattakk. Having thought things through, I now realise that he should be burnt at the stake for his alleged crimes.:~(
My apologies, Metalattakk. Having thought things through, I now realise that he should be burnt at the stake for his alleged crimes.:~(
Its just been announced on tv news that the father HAS admitted to the abuse and fathering her seven children.
Its just been announced on tv news that the father HAS admitted to the abuse and fathering her seven children.The point is, people should leave all talk of what they would like to do in terms of violent retribution until the full facts of a case are known. Remember the paediatrician some brain-dead numbskulls confused with paedophile?
The point is, people should leave all talk of what they would like to do in terms of violent retribution until the full facts of a case are known. Remember the paediatrician some brain-dead numbskulls confused with paedophile?
Totally agree with you. I just posted the information to update the thread.
Totally agree with you. I just posted the information to update the thread.I know, I was just feeling a bit rabble-roused by the mob mentality.:lol:
Margaret M.
28-Apr-08, 13:15
I hope he roasts in hell.
Boozeburglar
29-Apr-08, 18:21
If it was a local man I would see the sense in not assuming guilt; but this is half way across Europe. I don't expect a posse of orgers to turn up at the jail with a noose.
You could logically assume the expressions of disgust and suggestions of retribution here as predicated on his being guilty.
Innocent until proven guilty, and 'facts of the case' don't really apply when we are talking about something being reported across all news networks as fact, unless our assumptions would have a bearing on the case.
We are after all commenting on the notion of the crime as reported.
It may possibly take months for the truth to unfold; why should we wait until then to express our contempt for this monster?
I get equally irked when people throw in to complain that someone is 'speculating' about a new shop or development, and should reveal their sources.
Look up speculation. Hardly works when you have the facts.
:)
well DNA has established he is the father of the children so that looks like guilt to me.
Cedric Farthsbottom III
29-Apr-08, 18:41
I was shocked at the stories of this case.As a guy with ma lady bringing up bairns we have wer wee problems to solve.But this story,man.
Metalattakk
29-Apr-08, 19:02
It may possibly take months for the truth to unfold; why should we wait until then to express our contempt for this monster?
Why should we express our contempt at all? Surely the revulsion is universal?
Cedric Farthsbottom III
29-Apr-08, 19:19
Why should we express our contempt at all? Surely the revulsion is universal?
The revulsion is universal.But the question that comes out is what everyone shouts"What were ye thinkin' aboot?"
Metalattakk
29-Apr-08, 19:32
Who is shouting that? Not everyone, I can assure you.
Some of us have no interest in the motives involved. There's no curiosity on my part at all to know 'what he was thinking about'.
Cedric Farthsbottom III
29-Apr-08, 19:44
But surely every parent in the world,universally,is looking at each other saying"What wis this guy on".To be a grandfather and father.
How could she have so many children without pain releif!! - he must have been something else!! to see her go through it once!! Im not sure what the name of him should be!
If it was a local man I would see the sense in not assuming guilt; but this is half way across Europe. I don't expect a posse of orgers to turn up at the jail with a noose.
You could logically assume the expressions of disgust and suggestions of retribution here as predicated on his being guilty.
Innocent until proven guilty, and 'facts of the case' don't really apply when we are talking about something being reported across all news networks as fact, unless our assumptions would have a bearing on the case.
We are after all commenting on the notion of the crime as reported.
It may possibly take months for the truth to unfold; why should we wait until then to express our contempt for this monster?
I get equally irked when people throw in to complain that someone is 'speculating' about a new shop or development, and should reveal their sources.
Look up speculation. Hardly works when you have the facts.
:)Absolute rubbish Booze. Whether it is in Austria or Wick, nobody has the right to assume someone is guilty without knowing the facts. Nobody has the right to start spouting about what they would like to do to that person without knowing the facts.
You are right, nobody from Caithness.Org is going to turning up at the jail with a noose, your point being? Should we, no matter where we live or how it affects us, start talking absolute crap about what we would do to a person even when we have no grasp whatsoever on the facts of the case?
Innocent until proven guilty applies no matter where you are, to lose sight of that is the start of the total erosion of what is left of a civilised society.
I think the whole case is so incomprehensible to the human mind that everyone is just reeling from the questions it poses, mine is not why but HOW HOW HOW???????? So many how's.
It has just been proved that the Bar Steward is the father of the children. I do not advocate violence as a rule but this is one time when I may just change my mind. I cannot put into words the revulsion I feel.[evil] How can anyone justify doing this to their child/children/grandchildren? Rumour has it that he will only get about 15 years if convicted. He is an old man so I hope he rots there until his dying breath.
It has just been proved that the Bar Steward is the father of the children. I do not advocate violence as a rule but this is one time when I may just change my mind. I cannot put into words the revulsion I feel.[evil] How can anyone justify doing this to their child/children/grandchildren? Rumour has it that he will only get about 15 years if convicted. He is an old man so I hope he rots there until his dying breath.I thought he was an engineer not a bar steward, you learn something new everyday they say and it's true.
Boozeburglar
30-Apr-08, 01:15
Why should we express our contempt at all? Surely the revulsion is universal?
Because it is human to express how we feel. Why did Bon Scott want to diss Howard Hughes?
Absolute rubbish Booze. Whether it is in Austria or Wick, nobody has the right to assume someone is guilty without knowing the facts. Nobody has the right to start spouting about what they would like to do to that person without knowing the facts.
You are right, nobody from Caithness.Org is going to turning up at the jail with a noose, your point being? Should we, no matter where we live or how it affects us, start talking absolute crap about what we would do to a person even when we have no grasp whatsoever on the facts of the case?
Innocent until proven guilty applies no matter where you are, to lose sight of that is the start of the total erosion of what is left of a civilised society.
People are merely expressing their feelings about such a crime, or the person who could commit such a crime. I am sure were he to be found not guilty (unlikely now I should think...) no one would then suggest he be topped in whatever fashion.
We don't need the facts of the case to make general statements about our point of view, we are not depriving him of a fair trial.
Get me? We are merely saying what we think about someone who, hypothetically, is guilty of such a crime; not stating that this specific man is guilty of what he has been charged with de facto.
There IS a difference.
Someone who uses the analogy of a paediatrician being mistaken for a paedophile as though it were at all relevant to this case does not deserve a serious response for questioning why I mention that no vigilante attack on this vile genuine paedophile will stem from the meanderings, blood thirsty or not, of a few .Orgers.
Hell, I started out certain OJ was innocent, but he was a murderous pig, convicted or not that is my view.
Margaret M.
30-Apr-08, 04:30
People are merely expressing their feelings about such a crime, or the person who could commit such a crime. I am sure were he to be found not guilty (unlikely now I should think...) no one would then suggest he be topped in whatever fashion.
We don't need the facts of the case to make general statements about our point of view, we are not depriving him of a fair trial.
Get me?
Exactly, it is only human to react to such horrific news. This a message board and not a court of law and I may from time to time post an opinion without knowing all the facts.
Margaret M.
30-Apr-08, 04:35
I thought he was an engineer not a bar steward, you learn something new everyday they say and it's true.
Bar steward or engineer, who cares? I seriously doubt he will be remembered for his occupation.
Metalattakk
30-Apr-08, 10:41
Because it is human to express how we feel. Why did Bon Scott want to diss Howard Hughes?
Purely for /hits and giggles.
People are merely expressing their feelings about such a crime, or the person who could commit such a crime. I am sure were he to be found not guilty (unlikely now I should think...) no one would then suggest he be topped in whatever fashion.
We don't need the facts of the case to make general statements about our point of view, we are not depriving him of a fair trial.
Get me? We are merely saying what we think about someone who, hypothetically, is guilty of such a crime; not stating that this specific man is guilty of what he has been charged with de facto.
There IS a difference.
Maybe so, but all it ends up as is an "I'm more appalled/outraged/angry/ than you are" contest. And that's something that bores the paps off me. ;)
If he is guilty, I hope he roasts in hell. Allegedly, he had been abusing his daughter since she was 11 years old, even before he locked her in the cellar, so that was 31 years of being molested by that demented monster. It said in the article that the mother allegedly did not know -- how could she not? If the accusations are fact, the stinky old creep had to be scurrying around delivering babies and taking food and hopefully clothing to his captives -- how could his wife not notice that? I cannot even think what a fitting punishment would be for something this horrendous. As Porshiepoo says, it makes one wonder how many are enduring this alleged fate that we may never hear about.Excellent amendment, Margaret.;)
Exactly, it is only human to react to such horrific news. This a message board and not a court of law and I may from time to time post an opinion without knowing all the facts.And you have proved you can admit when you are wrong.
People are merely expressing their feelings about such a crime, or the person who could commit such a crime.That would be great if it were totally true
I am sure were he to be found not guilty (unlikely now I should think...) no one would then suggest he be topped in whatever fashion.Some will some won't.
We don't need the facts of the case to make general statements about our point of view, we are not depriving him of a fair trial. How right you are, As long as those points of view aren't given as being factual.
Get me? We are merely saying what we think about someone who, hypothetically, is guilty of such a crime; not stating that this specific man is guilty of what he has been charged with de facto.Going by some of the first posts, they were most definitely stating that the man was guilty de facto.
There IS a difference.How good it would be for some to be able to tell.
Someone who uses the analogy of a paediatrician being mistaken for a paedophile as though it were at all relevant to this case does not deserve a serious response for questioning why I mention that no vigilante attack on this vile genuine paedophile will stem from the meanderings, blood thirsty or not, of a few .Orgers.The analogy is very relevant in showing what the mob mentality is capable of, why let facts get in the way of a good kicking or prison sentence.
Hell, I started out certain OJ was innocent, but he was a murderous pig, convicted or not that is my view.I preferred sunny D, gave me an nice orange glow.
I find it very hard to believe that Mr Fritzl's wife didn't know what was going on. If she really didn't, then his family in the cellar would have been left to starve to death, after he died, had Kerstin not required hospitalisation. Unless, of course, he'd left information in a will, including the whereabouts of the remote contol and the secret code required to open the cellar door.
Well considering his record of known atrocities so far I dont suppose he even cared.
Well considering his record of known atrocities so far I dont suppose he even cared.
You could well be right, unicorn. I wonder if it will come to light (no pun intended), that Mr Fritzl had been sexually abusing poor Kerstin also. It wouldn't surprise me if he had. I hope and pray that she comes out of the coma alright, and that she and the rest of the victims can eventually lead half way normal lives, if at all possible. Personally, I think Fritzl deserves to spend the rest of his life in prison, for his heinous crimes.
Ive just been reading how he used to leave them to go on holiday to Thailand for three weeks at a time.
I've been following it all but never struck me once all the things on here, I just thought it's all possible and problay things like this go on all the time. Also that Austria produced another well know pshyco Hitler.
Metalattakk
01-May-08, 04:13
Why did you type those words, sweetpea? Why would you denigrate a whole country just because they produced two utter nutters?
What would an Austrian say about us, with our Hindleys and Shipmans and Wests and Nielsens?
Let her without sin, cast the first stone.
SunsetSong
01-May-08, 14:32
Why did you type those words, sweetpea? Why would you denigrate a whole country just because they produced two utter nutters?
What would an Austrian say about us, with our Hindleys and Shipmans and Wests and Nielsens?
Let her without sin, cast the first stone.
Couldn't agree more Metalattakk....we can't write off an entire country based on Hilter and this Man, no matter how despicable their crimes are. It is already being widely reported that in Austria they are conducting investigations into these failures based on this case and the previous case of the young girl having been found in the cellar.
The mother and these three children have been through what none of us could even begin to understand but for the older children, the girl if she recovers and the older boy their troubles are only just beginning. Yes, the 5 year old will have problems but due to his young age will be more resilient. Apart from television these two older children have no concept of the outside world. Of other people other than their mother and their captor. And they deserve to be left in peace to build a life to come to terms with the world outside.
Whatever happens to the grandfather, who aside from confessing has now decided to say nothing, is down to the courts and given the confession it is likely that he will be locked away for the rest of his life. At 73 years old don't you think that will be the case??
However the whole thing is becoming more and more like a sideshow....some papers saying he used to leave them to go on holiday to Thailand for 3 weeks at a time, others saying that the doors would automatically open if he was away for a long period of time. Speculation on what drove him to do this etc etc etc. The list goes on. The fact is....let the courts take care of him, all will out in the courtroom and justice will be done, carrying on the fairground however will lead to these children and the mother facing another prison sentence, one which the media will provide.
So I say leave them all alone.
A couple of updates to this case.
I heard on the news yesterday that the police are now investigating other members of the family, (they don’t say who). It seems that Josef Fritzl may not have been the only one with a key to the cellar.
The vocabulary of the children who were raised in the cellar is so limited that they cannot communicate properly and will probably have to undergo years in care before they can lead a normal life.
Why did you type those words, sweetpea? Why would you denigrate a whole country just because they produced two utter nutters?
What would an Austrian say about us, with our Hindleys and Shipmans and Wests and Nielsens?
Let her without sin, cast the first stone.
Every nation has its share of nutters - there's no denying that.
A couple of updates to this case.
I heard on the news yesterday that the police are now investigating other members of the family, (they don’t say who). It seems that Josef Fritzl may not have been the only one with a key to the cellar.
The vocabulary of the children who were raised in the cellar is so limited that they cannot communicate properly and will probably have to undergo years in care before they can lead a normal life.
Yes, I think it will take a long time in care before they can lead normal lives, and they definitely need to be protected from the media circus.
all i can say i was extremly disturbed wen i herd it on the radio
all i can say i was extremly disturbed wen i herd it on the radio
I was appalled at first reading about this but after reading this thread have learnt even more :(
I too find it hard to believe the mother did not know, but it is possible I suppose
but then appears other people knew how could she not?????
"Joseph Leitner, a former lodger, said that shortly after he moved in, he learnt that she had been repeatedly raped by her father. "I had a good friend from school who was really close to Elisabeth," said Mr Leitner, who lived at the house in the small Austrian town of Amstetten between 1990 and 1994. - "She confided in me, and told me what a monster Josef was - and what he had done to Elisabeth.
"But I decided I did not want to get involved. I did not want to get kicked out of the flat, I did not want to lose it. I kept myself to myself."
Disgusting
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/people-knew-about-fritzls-crimes-but-still-kept-silent/2008/05/04/1209839454659.html
I was appalled at first reading about this but after reading this thread have learnt even more :(
I too find it hard to believe the mother did not know, but it is possible I suppose
but then appears other people knew how could she not?????
"Joseph Leitner, a former lodger, said that shortly after he moved in, he learnt that she had been repeatedly raped by her father. "I had a good friend from school who was really close to Elisabeth," said Mr Leitner, who lived at the house in the small Austrian town of Amstetten between 1990 and 1994. - "She confided in me, and told me what a monster Josef was - and what he had done to Elisabeth.
"But I decided I did not want to get involved. I did not want to get kicked out of the flat, I did not want to lose it. I kept myself to myself."
Disgusting
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/people-knew-about-fritzls-crimes-but-still-kept-silent/2008/05/04/1209839454659.htmlHe didn't want kicked out of his flat?:eek:
Morally, he's partly responsible for what happened to that woman and then her kids. If he'd reported to the police, what he was supposedly told, an investigation could have prevented years of misery.
He didn't want kicked out of his flat?:eek:
Morally, he's partly responsible for what happened to that woman and then her kids. If he'd reported to the police, what he was supposedly told, an investigation could have prevented years of misery.
I think from reading that article there are a lot of guilty people, granted to various degrees. The laws in the country being to blame too.
It is hard to tell if what you hear is true or not, but the guy who "did not want to lose his flat " Says he chose to keep himself to himself, the way he words it seems to imply that he believed the stories just didna want to lost the flat. It all seems like stupid gas or summit has been spread around too, what was wrong an anonymous tip off? unless that is known not to be acted upon in that country.
It is hard to know when you are talking a different place with different laws at least some good will come out of it as in some laws may change over lt hope a good few
" In its first substantial admission that its child protection laws need to be tightened, the Austrian Government is planning to make it harder to expunge sex offences from criminal records.
Nonetheless, the head of the family department of Austria's Justice Ministry said that under existing laws, even if authorities knew that Fritzl was a convicted rapist, they would have been likely to award him custody of the children as he was believed to have been their grandfather."
I think from reading that article there are a lot of guilty people, granted to various degrees. The laws in the country being to blame too.
It is hard to tell if what you hear is true or not, but the guy who "did not want to lose his flat " Says he chose to keep himself to himself, the way he words it seems to imply that he believed the stories just didna want to lost the flat. It all seems like stupid gas or summit has been spread around too, what was wrong an anonymous tip off? unless that is known not to be acted upon in that country.
It is hard to know when you are talking a different place with different laws at least some good will come out of it as in some laws may change over lt hope a good few
" In its first substantial admission that its child protection laws need to be tightened, the Austrian Government is planning to make it harder to expunge sex offences from criminal records.
Nonetheless, the head of the family department of Austria's Justice Ministry said that under existing laws, even if authorities knew that Fritzl was a convicted rapist, they would have been likely to award him custody of the children as he was believed to have been their grandfather."I think the law should be changed so that people like the "flat man" could be charged for witholding information that could have nailed a convicted rapist who started to do the same to his own daughter.
Knowing what they know now, as I have said, his testimony could have prevented the imprisoning and the subsequent rape and pregnancies of the daughter. I hope the 'flat man' burns with guilt until his last breath.
Bar steward or engineer, who cares? I seriously doubt he will be remembered for his occupation.
Bar Steward isn't his occupation :lol: it means something else.
Margaret M.
16-May-08, 14:56
Fox news reported last night that the demented scumbag is possibly linked to a couple of murders. I still cannot believe that the mother knew nothing during all those years, how could she not know? Very sad that so many turned a blind eye to what was going on and failed to help.
Margaret M.
16-May-08, 14:58
Bar Steward isn't his occupation :lol: it means something else.
Yes it does, and it is way too kind.
Yes it does, and it is way too kind.
I agree, im sure most people agree too.
Punishment by death would be too good for him, he should be tortured for the rest of his life in the worst possible ways.
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