View Full Version : Can you commit murder and be sane?
Just reading a bit about Ian Huntley after his arrest for the murder of the Soham children and his attempt to appear insane.
To quote consultant psychiatrist, Dr. Christopher Clark:
Although Mr. Huntley made clear attempts to appear insane, I have no doubt that the man currently, and at the time of the murder, was both physically and mentally sound and therefore, if he is found guilty, carried out the murder totally aware of his actions.I would say that anybody that commits such a heinous crime is insane, what are your thoughts?
there are not insane they are sick and thats how they get their kicks!
i hate when a murderer or a rapist pretty much gets away with beause they are "mentally unstable!"
there are not insane they are sick and thats how they get their kicks!
i hate when a murderer or a rapist pretty much gets away with beause they are "mentally unstable!"There is no doubt that normal, "sane", is a mute point but surely murdering inoccent children is the act of an insane mind?
fingalmacool
15-Apr-08, 16:09
Just reading a bit about Ian Huntley after his arrest for the murder of the Soham children and his attempt to appear insane.
To quote consultant psychiatrist, Dr. Christopher Clark:
I would say that anybody that commits such a heinous crime is insane, what are your thoughts?
Isn't there enough loopholes in the justice system without getting peoples blood boiling. There can be differences, for instance if you were on the river fishing, minding your own beeswax and some numty with a snorkal dressed as the sugarplum fairy come out of the water and stabs you in the eye, then proceeds to remove their own eye and tries to replace the one he stabbed out of you, then granted he is probably insane. However if someone stabs you in the eye because you wouldn't hand over your wallet then i would say a definate NO?
Isn't there enough loopholes in the justice system without getting peoples blood boiling. There can be differences, for instance if you were on the river fishing, minding your own beeswax and some numty with a snorkal dressed as the sugarplum fairy come out of the water and stabs you in the eye, then proceeds to remove their own eye and tries to replace the one he stabbed out of you, then granted he is probably insane. However if someone stabs you in the eye because you wouldn't hand over your wallet then i would say a definate NO?An eye for an eye, Mmm? So you are saying that someone that stabs you for the contents of your wallet could be classed as sane?
Penelope Pitstop
15-Apr-08, 17:05
An eye for an eye, Mmm? So you are saying that someone that stabs you for the contents of your wallet could be classed as sane?
No, I don't think that's what Fingalmacool is getting at TBH !!
Sapphire2803
15-Apr-08, 17:10
There's a big difference between not being completely sane and being insane.
Insane is completely out of your gourd, with no real grasp of what you're doing. Everything else is a version of sanity, it's more about whether you were responsible for your actions.
Ok I give up, I'm reading this back to myself and it's a really crap description. :lol:
YummyMummy
15-Apr-08, 17:16
Ian Huntly was a sex offender and a murderer. He had a string of previous offences of sexual abuse of girls and planned the murders of Holly and Jessica. Like many of his kind, he will plead "insane" to have an easier time in prison.
In the event he hadn't been caught, he would not present or pretend to be insane, but would go about his business like the normal bloke he appeared to be - working in a school no less.
Say you have a child who is beaten along with his siblings and his mother by his father regularly after a night at the pub and one night the father returns drunk and commences to set about them.
The child grabs a heavy/sharp object and kills the father.
Does that make the child insane?:confused
Sapphire2803
15-Apr-08, 17:24
Say you have a child who is beaten along with his siblings and his mother by his father regularly after a night at the pub and one night the father returns drunk and commences to set about them.
The child grabs a heavy/sharp object and kills the father.
Does that make the child insane?:confused
That's not murder though, it's self defence. ;)
That's not murder though, it's self defence. ;)
Not if the mother or other children are being attacked at the time but not the child who kills the father!
Sapphire2803
15-Apr-08, 17:46
That's voluntary manslaughter.
Sapphire2803
15-Apr-08, 17:53
Actually, I think in Scotland it's voluntary culpable homicide (try saying that 3 times fast)
:)
Lets put it this way if Ian Huntly or someone of a similar type had murdered your children, nieces, nephews or other relative would you want him to get out of prison on an insanity plea? I think not! He knew what he was doing all along and I for one am very sorry that we dont have the death penalty!
That's voluntary manslaughter.
Blimey you know a lot about these things!:lol:
Then let us assume that the child wielding the heavy/sharp object has waited until the father is in a drunken stupor and with suitable pre meditation kills him to prevent further anguish to his family ( is that murder enough for you?;))
Is the child insane..?
To be convicted of murder the prosecution has to show that you intended beforehand to kill the person - malice aforethought. It therefore, follows surely that you are not insane if you can form that intent.
Sapphire2803
15-Apr-08, 18:33
Blimey you know a lot about these things!
Then let us assume that the child wielding the heavy/sharp object has waited until the father is in a drunken stupor and with suitable pre meditation kills him to prevent further anguish to his family ( is that murder enough for you?;))
Is the child insane..?
Ooh... That one's more difficult. It could still be voluntary manslaughter (provocation), but if it happened the way you say then yes, a murder charge might stick.
No the child would not be insane :)
I think you'll find that you can't be insane and commit murder. The fact that you're gourd is scrambled means that mens rea couldn't be proven.
In other words, if you are insane in the eyes of the law you couldn't plan and carry out the act in a way that would class it as murder, therefore you would be not guilty and put in the loony bin forever and ever amen.
If you commit murder and are sick/mentally unstable etc, but not insane. You will be found guilty and end up in a prison for the mentally bewildered. Also known as a 5 star hotel with barbed wire.
Ooh... That one's more difficult. It could still be voluntary manslaughter (provocation), but if it happened the way you say then yes, a murder charge might stick.
No the child would not be insane
Thanks sapphire..you made me work for that one!:D
Should I ever commit murder ( and lord knows I am often sorely tempted!) you can expect a call!;)
Boozeburglar
15-Apr-08, 18:46
To be convicted of murder the prosecution has to show that you intended beforehand to kill the person - malice aforethought. It therefore, follows surely that you are not insane if you can form that intent.
If, in the course of an altercation, you were to punch someone you did not know with enough force to kill them, you would normally be charged of murder. The only thing the prosecution would have to prove is that you punched them with sufficient force to kill them; not that you intended to kill them.
Serial killers frequently plan and intend their murders, yet may insanely believe they are under the guidance of some higher power.
Happens over and over, intention and insanity combined.
The Law really is not so simple.
Sapphire2803
15-Apr-08, 19:04
If, in the course of an altercation, you were to punch someone you did not know with enough force to kill them, you would normally be charged of murder. The only thing the prosecution would have to prove is that you punched them with sufficient force to kill them; not that you intended to kill them.
Serial killers frequently plan and intend their murders, yet may insanely believe they are under the guidance of some higher power.
Happens over and over, intention and insanity combined.
The Law really is not so simple.
Without them proving intent you could only be convicted of voluntary manslaughter.
I think the answer is quite simply yes you can be fully sane.
Who defines the value of human life to these people? If they get their ethical and moral standards from popular culture,films and television, then what do you expect?
----------
In my mind, there is no difference between killing an unborn baby and killing a fully grown adult. They are both humans. Yet for one you get convicted, and for the other you get commended.
What a sick world we live in.
Boozeburglar
15-Apr-08, 20:03
Without them proving intent you could only be convicted of voluntary manslaughter.
Intent to what?
They only have to prove you intended to punch them, and that that punch was what killed them. Not that you intended to kill them.
Do some more reading and you will see where I am coming from.
:)
[quote=Riffman;37375
In my mind, there is no difference between killing an unborn baby and killing a fully grown adult. They are both humans. Yet for one you get convicted, and for the other you get commended.[/quote]
That is a whole other debate...and I don't know anyone who was 'commended' for having an abortion.:confused
When I worked in the old Craig Dunain and a patient went a bit off it the psychiatrist in charge used to say to us ' So, are they mad or are they bad?'
Ian Huntly was a sex offender and a murderer. He had a string of previous offences of sexual abuse of girls and planned the murders of Holly and Jessica. Like many of his kind, he will plead "insane" to have an easier time in prison.
In the event he hadn't been caught, he would not present or pretend to be insane, but would go about his business like the normal bloke he appeared to be - working in a school no less.Sociopaths apparently can quite easily go about their business appearing totally 'normal'. I don't know what he was classed as but if he's a sociopath then he would be found sane by law
Lets put it this way if Ian Huntly or someone of a similar type had murdered your children, nieces, nephews or other relative would you want him to get out of prison on an insanity plea? I think not! He knew what he was doing all along and I for one am very sorry that we dont have the death penalty!I wouldn't want him released no matter what institution they put him in, high security prison or hospital It is highly unlikely he will ever be released.
To be convicted of murder the prosecution has to show that you intended beforehand to kill the person - malice aforethought. It therefore, follows surely that you are not insane if you can form that intent.
Peter Sutcliffe was found to be sane at his trial but later diagnosed as having schizophrenia and sent to broadmoor hospital. His muders were premeditated.
I think the answer is quite simply yes you can be fully sane.
Who defines the value of human life to these people? If they get their ethical and moral standards from popular culture,films and television, then what do you expect?
----------
In my mind, there is no difference between killing an unborn baby and killing a fully grown adult. They are both humans. Yet for one you get convicted, and for the other you get commended.
What a sick world we live in.The older we get and the more information we take in, the more we realise that we do indeed live in a world containing some very sick individuals.
When I worked in the old Craig Dunain and a patient went a bit off it the psychiatrist in charge used to say to us ' So, are they mad or are they bad?'Mad or bad, excellent question. Next up, original sin anybody?
Sapphire2803
16-Apr-08, 00:00
Intent to what?
They only have to prove you intended to punch them, and that that punch was what killed them. Not that you intended to kill them.
Do some more reading and you will see where I am coming from.
:)
Yes, but intent to punch someone and cause them pain is a totally different thing to intent to kill. The first is manslaughter and the second is murder.
Also in a punch up, you would have the question of self defence, provocation etc. All manslaughter
If on the other hand the person who threw the punch knew that their punch (for whatever reason) would definitely kill that person, then you're back to a murder charge.
You will quite often see someone charged with murder, this is then reduced to manslaughter when the facts become clear.
Yes, but intent to punch someone and cause them pain is a totally different thing to intent to kill. The first is manslaughter and the second is murder.
Also in a punch up, you would have the question of self defence, provocation etc. All manslaughter
If on the other hand the person who threw the punch knew that their punch (for whatever reason) would definitely kill that person, then you're back to a murder charge.
You will quite often see someone charged with murder, this is then reduced to manslaughter when the facts become clear.I doubt if someone convicted of killing someone through a punch would be charged with murder but rather manslaughter. I would have to agree with you on this Saphire.
celtic 302
16-Apr-08, 01:16
It all depends on how you define insanity. There are, in my humble opinion, two ways of defining it - 1) A deranged state of mind, or lack of understaning. In this case murder is commited by the sane, seeing as you require at least some understanding to know what you are doing. 2) It is when you forget the social norm and become a danger to yourself or others... In this case they may be insane, but it really is hard to say.
Really, instead of insane, we should just call them sick little... im sure you can finish that for yourself, and whether sane or not (legally) these people should remain in an enclosed environment for the rest of there damn lives.
There is no doubt that normal, "sane", is a mute point but surely murdering inoccent children is the act of an insane mind?
I might be wrong, but one of the defining points to an insanity defence is not knowing that what you did is wrong. He knew what he did was wrong, so much so he tried to hide it.
Lets put it this way if Ian Huntly or someone of a similar type had murdered your children, nieces, nephews or other relative would you want him to get out of prison on an insanity plea? I think not! He knew what he was doing all along and I for one am very sorry that we dont have the death penalty!
well, put it like that,, maybe yes.. then id be waiting for him myself, and use the same defence when I went to court..
"sorry your honor, i must have been a bit insane"
seriously, there are cases when peoples instability leads them to commit acts without realising the consequences.. these people do need to be helped, then there are acts of passion, self defense etc etc.. where people snap due to extreme traumas they have been put through (like years of abuse)
then there are your cold blooded killers, who just get their kicks out of planning and carrying out their acts..
of course, this doesnt cover all aspects, jus a few, but this is why we have different levels off charges for these different types.. and why we need experts to assess the person who commited the crime..
dunderheed
16-Apr-08, 10:36
my answer to this problem? put them into the state hospitals at broadmoor and carstairs, it wouldnt take long for them to decide that prison was the better option.
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