View Full Version : Is it only windfarms in Caithness? (merged threads)
or can we talk about ones in sutherland.
delighted i am to see that this windfarm has finally been approved by scottish exec.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/highlands_and_islands/7339069.stm
Another nail in the coffin of the Highland landscape. Totally disgusted by this Government.
Another nail in the coffin of the Highland landscape. Totally disgusted by this Government.
well i think its great.
will it make any impact in your life?
Why do you think its so great?
its good news for the estate and the people who work on it
the second coming
09-Apr-08, 21:45
Nice to see some down to earth practical positive thinking about electricity generation.
Tighsonas4
10-Apr-08, 12:44
WINDFARMS
its certainly good for the estates. bet they pick up a packet for them to get wayleaves regards tony[lol]
Nice to see some down to earth practical positive thinking about electricity generation.
Since the 'Bilbster Three' windturbines starting twirling there hasn't been many days when all three were going at once. I look out of my window right now and yet again all three are stationary. Very efficient and very reliable!![lol]
its good news for the estate and the people who work on it
Well that's alright then...[disgust]
Windfarms very interesting Thread of a new windfarm with pictures.
http://www.rossendaleonline.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1664 (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.rossendaleonline.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1664)
Obviously a wind turbine fanboy site...
Some very good photos though.
If looking at the erection of eyesores floats your boat....
Me, I'd prefer to see unspoilt moorland...
Kevin Milkins
10-Apr-08, 14:13
If looking at the erection of eyesores floats your boat....
Me, I'd prefer to see unspoilt moorland...
I think everybody ,everywere would prefer an unspoiled landscape ,but in the real world of today the masses have decided on labour saving devices and comfort,all at which comes at a price. It certainly seems contentious getting the balance right. Is your pc coal fired Madpict?
I have my Mac rigged up to a cycle - I'm peddling like hell at t he m o men t so p lea se exc usean y typi ngerr ors....
I have my Mac rigged up to a cycle - I'm peddling like hell at t he m o men t so p lea se exc usean y typi ngerr ors....
Now don't you go and get a puncture else my kettle will stop boiling! Tee hee!
Kevin Milkins
10-Apr-08, 14:46
I have my Mac rigged up to a cycle - I'm peddling like hell at t he m o men t so p lea se exc usean y typi ngerr ors....
Nice one that was the answear I was looking for. lol:lol:
Cinderella's Shoe
10-Apr-08, 19:14
I wonder how many turbines Alex Salmond and others in the so called government can see from their own homes? I'd be willing to bet zero or close to it....
you will only be able to see the top of the gordonbush mills from a few houses on the kildonan side of the strath. suprisingly enough you wont see them from all the hundreds of objectors that live in england.
you will only be able to see the top of the gordonbush mills from a few houses on the kildonan side of the strath. suprisingly enough you wont see them from all the hundreds of objectors that live in england.
Obviously, but these hundreds of objectors from england may well be people that come to bonny Scotland for their holidays; bringing their money and their business to support the largest industry in the Highlands - tourism. How short sighted is it to ruin a wonderful landscape (talking in general terms now not specifically about Gordonbush) by festooning it with multiple large windfarms, possibly to such an extent that tourism is severly effected?
you will only be able to see the top of the gordonbush mills from a few houses on the kildonan side of the strath. suprisingly enough you wont see them from all the hundreds of objectors that live in england.
Pray tell me why 'ex-pats' living outside of the county should not be allowed to voice their objections?
I have and obviously I am entitled to do so otherwise the letter I received from the Director of Planning & Development for The Highland Council would have told me to mind my own business.[evil]
At least my motives are not governed by financial greed...
mine may be for financial, but not greed.
and i know for a fact that some of the objections have never set foot near the windfarm site, just someone told them to write a letter of objection.
there was letters of objection written saying (along lines of ), i am a friend of X who has asked me to write a letter of objection, so i am writing to object.
Boozeburglar
10-Apr-08, 22:32
I have my Mac rigged up to a cycle - I'm peddling like hell at t he m o men t so p lea se exc usean y typi ngerr ors....
Lol,
You might appreciate the problems Cyderdelic were having with their rig, soon half the country will be slowing down with the wind...
:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skijkXSwrD0
Happens every time the wife uses the microwave...:)
ywindythesecond
11-Apr-08, 08:19
mine may be for financial, but not greed.
and i know for a fact that some of the objections have never set foot near the windfarm site, just someone told them to write a letter of objection.
there was letters of objection written saying (along lines of ), i am a friend of X who has asked me to write a letter of objection, so i am writing to object.
My daughters are in Canada and New Zealand. They have objected to windfarms in Caithness because they know the place. I have made representations to a survey on fishing methods affecting Hector's Dolphins off the coast of New Zealand because I have seen them close up. I do accept the point that people who are not involved and are unaware of the issues can be induced to register an opinion by others. The "support" for Baillie and Spittal Hill windfarms is an example, gained by professionals touting strangers who know nothing about the developments, in places remote from the sites .
ywy2
ywy2,
You don't mean to say that people are getting their friends to write in supporting these developments along the lines of "just someone told them to write a letter of support.
there was letters of support written saying (along lines of ), i am a friend of X who has asked me to write a letter of support, so i am writing to support."
Such underhanded methods by the developers should be exposed!!!
ywindythesecond
11-Apr-08, 09:04
ywy2,
You don't mean to say that people are getting their friends to write in supporting these developments along the lines of "just someone told them to write a letter of support.
there was letters of support written saying (along lines of ), i am a friend of X who has asked me to write a letter of support, so i am writing to support."
Such underhanded methods by the developers should be exposed!!!
You are quoting emszxr, not me.
The "support" for Baillie and Spittal Hill windfarms is an example, gained by professionals touting strangers who know nothing about the developments, in places remote from the sites
I was actually 're-using' the statement by emsxr about 'objection rigging' to turn the tables. If you re-read my use of the quote you'll see I have substituted "support" for "objection" in the version you misread.
I guess I tried too early in the day....;)
mine may be for financial, but not greed.
and i know for a fact that some of the objections have never set foot near the windfarm site, just someone told them to write a letter of objection.
there was letters of objection written saying (along lines of ), i am a friend of X who has asked me to write a letter of objection, so i am writing to object.
They have a right to do just that Ems. Some people believe that large scale windfarms are too inefficient at producing energy to justify covering Highland landscapes with them at the expense of unique wildlife habitat, tourism, etc. They are as much entitled to their opinion as you - some would say more so, as they are not prejudiced by financial interest. BTW I live here too.
ywindythesecond
11-Apr-08, 22:12
I was actually 're-using' the statement by emsxr about 'objection rigging' to turn the tables. If you re-read my use of the quote you'll see I have substituted "support" for "objection" in the version you misread.
I guess I tried too early in the day....;)
Sorry I misunderstood Madpict. I have just re-read it. Please use a sledgehammer next time you want to make a subtle point to me.
Obviously, but these hundreds of objectors from england may well be people that come to bonny Scotland for their holidays; bringing their money and their business to support the largest industry in the Highlands - tourism. How short sighted is it to ruin a wonderful landscape (talking in general terms now not specifically about Gordonbush) by festooning it with multiple large windfarms, possibly to such an extent that tourism is severly effected?
Tourism? the bulk of tourists we glimpse are either towing caravans or arrive in campers, they bring all their food etc with them, camp at the side of the roads or in passing places and discard all their rubbish before moving on, expecting us to clean up after them, and having spent very little north of the border, how can that be good for scotland?
ywy2,
I have a 4lb lump hammer - will that work?
the bulk of tourists we glimpse are either towing caravans or arrive in campers
Are they just the ones you see? Perhaps you need to explore the county outside of the boundaries of 'your estate' a bit more. Many visitors stay in the local hotels and B&B's. And even though I dislike caravanners for their ability to hold back us boy racers, one thing I would not accuse them off is dumping litter. Most are very good at taking their rubbish home.
Other breeds of 'travellers' are the ones who spoil the countryside with their garbage. Maybe you are getting them mixed up?
If you think that covering the far north with wind factories is going to increase tourism, as some pro-windies try to claim, then you're living in cloud cuckoo land...
ywindythesecond
11-Apr-08, 22:41
well i think its great.
will it make any impact in your life?
Evening ems.
The answer is, directly, no. Indirectly, yes.
Every windfarm built anywhere in Britain puts the price of our electricity up by a tiny amount. No windfarm anywhere has allowed a fossil fuel power station to be shut down. We are paying for political spin and commercial profit. If we were paying for carbon reduction and environmental benefit I would be first in the queue.
Every windfarm north of Beauly puts pressure on upgrading the distribution system. There will come a time when there is so much commercial pressure that the grid system will have to be upgraded to cope.
It wont just be upgraded to cope, it will be upgraded to take future development, and that will put pressure on planners etc to accept more windfarms to justify the investment in the grid.
Imagine five years from now looking over that appalling stone wall at Tesco filling station in Wick while OH is filling up. Left to right, Burn of Whilk Windfarm, Camster Windfarm, Achairn Windfarm, Bilbster Windfarm, Spittal Hill Windfarm, Durran Windfarm. And behind you, fortunately hidden by Tesco, Stroupster Windfarm, and Scoolary Windfarm.
Sorry forgot Bower Quarry.
Ems, where do you think it should stop? After your windfarm? After the one after your windfarm? When would you pull up the drawbridge?
So the potential impact of Gordonbush Windfarm is filling Caithness with turbines and all that that entails. Nobody will be unaffected. A few will be materially richer, most will be poorer in amenity, a significant few will be materially poorer.
Enjoy your good fortune.
Tourism? the bulk of tourists we glimpse are either towing caravans or arrive in campers, they bring all their food etc with them, camp at the side of the roads or in passing places and discard all their rubbish before moving on, expecting us to clean up after them, and having spent very little north of the border, how can that be good for scotland?
What a wide sweeping and, in my opinion, very insulting statement to make about the many good people from south of the border who love to visit this wonderful part of the world. You will never get a job working for Visit Scotland with an attitude like that!!
Well, on second thoughts it might be an improvement to the area - about the only thing Brora has going for it is the road out of there....
Tourism? the bulk of tourists we glimpse are either towing caravans or arrive in campers, they bring all their food etc with them, camp at the side of the roads or in passing places and discard all their rubbish before moving on, expecting us to clean up after them, and having spent very little north of the border, how can that be good for scotland?Most tourists do not tow caravans or drive campers and the vast majority of those that do stay on recognised caravan sites and buy the bulk of their food locally. There's not enough room to store a lot of food in caravans and campers. You won't recognise the majority of tourists because they don't tow caravans or drive campers. :cool:
Tourism is a major contributor to the economy of Caithness and Sutherland. See the CASE or HIE websites for details.
Windfarms on the other hand don't benefit the economy as much as you might think because the main beneficiaries are the developers (who generally aren't local companies) and the landowners. Wind-generated electricity is expensive for a number of reasons, it's intermittent and it requires backup from conventional power stations operating in standby mode, but at least it's sustainable and it doesn't require fuel so the usual efficiency arguments are rather moot. Until you consider transmission losses. :(
Moi x
Not quite Caithness & Sutherland but see they've made the right decision
( Plans to construct one of Europe's largest onshore wind farms has been refused by the Scottish Government. )
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/7358315.stm
Not quite Caithness & Sutherland but see they've made the right decision
( Plans to construct one of Europe's largest onshore wind farms has been refused by the Scottish Government. )
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/7358315.stm
Thank goodness the scientific community are beginning to kick up about the destruction of peatland involved in many of the Highland applications. The advantages of green power are completely negated by the huge release of carbon caused by the interference to the peat required for their construction.
Liek education and health, targets have been a mixed blessing, and all sorts of potty measures have been intriduced with no other purpose than to fulfil government "targets" - when did all this target thing start?
Time we started acting more sensibly.
I have just spotted this banner on the main page -
http://www.caithness.org/posterads2008/sunset_banner.jpg
Is the inclusion of a wind farm factory in the background a subtle attempt at subliminal messaging?
Obviously someone in Halkirk wants to put people off going there as the pic. is from the front page of their website
http://www.thisishalkirk.co.uk/about.asp
This gala link here doesn't seem to have been updated and I got tired of refreshing to get to that banner. Maybe the 14 mile walk is round the Causeymire windfactory - in and out the turbines? Hope the H&S people don't get to hear about it if so.
Heh - hope they are not intending to use one as a Maypole....
Front page of todays courier. Plans for Westerdale and Halsary. Nightmare!
Here's the link for full details;
http://www.johnogroat-journal.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/4584/Two_more_potential_wind-farm_sites_named.html (http://www.johnogroat-journal.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/4584/Two_more_potential_wind-farm_sites_named.html)
"any development will be six or seven years away" make that 60 or 70 and I'll be happy..
Here's the link for full details;
http://www.johnogroat-journal.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/4584/Two_more_potential_wind-farm_sites_named.html (http://www.johnogroat-journal.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/4584/Two_more_potential_wind-farm_sites_named.html)
"any development will be six or seven years away" make that 60 or 70 and I'll be happy..
If this goes ahead it will mean that every window I look out of will be of windmills. Watch out the rest of Caithness!
I want to express my approval that there was a triumph of local Democracy over fear and misinformation when I heard that voters in East Caithness approved that the Rumster Windfarm development should go ahead. It was heartening that local Caithnessian people were prepared to put Global disaster ahead of visual amenity.:)
I want to express my approval that there was a triumph of local Democracy over fear and misinformation when I heard that voters in East Caithness approved that the Rumster Windfarm development should go ahead. It was heartening that local Caithnessian people were prepared to put Global disaster ahead of visual amenity.:)
And you live near a windfam/windfarms?
I do and have no problem with them.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/62/217613113_1687957efb_m.jpg
Im sure everyone would rather that we didnt need them but we do and Im afraid to say that I believe the sparsly populated north is the best place for them.
I appreciate that some people dont like them but at least by sticking them up there the fewest number of people will be affected and there will be a lower number of NIMBY's complaining.
I do and have no problem with them.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/62/217613113_1687957efb_m.jpg
Im sure everyone would rather that we didnt need them but we do and Im afraid to say that I believe the sparsly populated north is the best place for them.
I appreciate that some people dont like them but at least by sticking them up there the fewest number of people will be affected and there will be a lower number of NIMBY's complaining.
You will have noticed a decrease in your electricity bills then?
I do and have no problem with them.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/62/217613113_1687957efb_m.jpg
Im sure everyone would rather that we didnt need them but we do and Im afraid to say that I believe the sparsly populated north is the best place for them.
I appreciate that some people dont like them but at least by sticking them up there the fewest number of people will be affected and there will be a lower number of NIMBY's complaining.
And persumably the developers are well aware of the population of complaining NIMBY's in Caithness.
My electricity cost is fixed.
NickInTheNorth
22-May-08, 09:20
You will have noticed a decrease in your electricity bills then?
The use of renewables resources for the generation of electricity has absolutely nothing to do with how much an individual pays for electricity.
Anyone that wants lower bills should do what we all ought to do and cut down on their consumption of electricity.
And persumably the developers are well aware of the population of complaining NIMBY's in Caithness.
Im sure thay are.
These things have got to go somewhere, someone is going to be unhappy no matter where they are sited. The fact is that caithness is very windy and sparsly populated, seems like common sense to me to put them there.
You will have noticed a decrease in your electricity bills then?
Is that the most important thing?
Is that the most important thing?
Okay, let's make electricity and other fuels soo expensive only the very rich can afford it. Global warming solved. Of course you would have to apply this to China and the rest of the developing world.
The use of renewables resources for the generation of electricity has absolutely nothing to do with how much an individual pays for electricity.
Anyone that wants lower bills should do what we all ought to do and cut down on their consumption of electricity.
Pardon my ignorance but I thought wind, after the initial costs of these windmills was free. I have never seen a big workforce at the causeymire site after the windmills were erected. By your logic, if I installed a windmill to power my house, I would still expect a bill.
NickInTheNorth
22-May-08, 10:02
Pardon my ignorance but I thought wind, after the initial costs of these windmills was free. I have never seen a big workforce at the causeymire site after the windmills were erected. By your logic, if I installed a windmill to power my house, I would still expect a bill.
If you believe that the use of renewables on a commercial scale is being introduced to reduce the size of the bills to customers then I am afraid that your ignorance is beyond pardon.
Globally we are running out of fossil fuels, ok they will last for my lifetime, and possibly my great great grand-children's lifetimes (if I have any), but they won't last for ever. Also it would appear on the balance of probabilities on the scientific evidence so far that human beings are having a detrimental impact on the global environment, partially as a result of the use of fossil fuels.
To sit back and do nothing is not an option.
And to answer your puerile point, yes an individual with a wind turbine of their own would eventually find they get cheaper electricity, but given the cost of installing such a system initially it takes quite some time to save anything.
If you believe that the use of renewables on a commercial scale is being introduced to reduce the size of the bills to customers then I am afraid that your ignorance is beyond pardon.
Globally we are running out of fossil fuels, ok they will last for my lifetime, and possibly my great great grand-children's lifetimes (if I have any), but they won't last for ever. Also it would appear on the balance of probabilities on the scientific evidence so far that human beings are having a detrimental impact on the global environment, partially as a result of the use of fossil fuels.
To sit back and do nothing is not an option.
And to answer your puerile point, yes an individual with a wind turbine of their own would eventually find they get cheaper electricity, but given the cost of installing such a system initially it takes quite some time to save anything.
So we should be getting cheaper electricity in the future once the developers have their money back from the installation costs? Ah but wait there is also the cost of dismantling them after they have expired. And all that lovely concrete which they sit on will need removed. Concrete production one of the biggest polluters on the planet.
Can I put my faith in renewables being introduced to save the planet?
NickInTheNorth
22-May-08, 10:26
So we should be getting cheaper electricity in the future once the developers have their money back from the installation costs? Ah but wait there is also the cost of dismantling them after they have expired. And all that lovely concrete which they sit on will need removed. Concrete production one of the biggest polluters on the planet.
Can I put my faith in renewables being introduced to save the planet?
No, you are the only one saying there should be a reduction in the cost of the electricity provided. I don't believe the price of electricity will reduce ever. (Well possibly if nuclear fusion ever becomes reality)
Err, didn't they claim that electricity from nuclear power stations would be so cheap to produce it would be free ...
No, you are the only one saying there should be a reduction in the cost of the electricity provided. I don't believe the price of electricity will reduce ever. (Well possibly if nuclear fusion ever becomes reality)
Why should'nt there be a reduction in electricity costs if the raw material (wind) costs nothing? Or is this another puerile suggestion? There can't be many free materials on the planet in what is basically a manufacturing process. T
NickInTheNorth
22-May-08, 10:55
Why should'nt there be a reduction in electricity costs if the raw material (wind) costs nothing? Or is this another puerile suggestion? There can't be many free materials on the planet in what is basically a manufacturing process. T
I haven't said there shouldn't. Simply that I don't believe there will be.
Yes it certainly is.
I have to say I find it intensely annoying when people choose to discuss the points that they wish people had made rather then the points actually made. Try reading the posts and see what people have actually said, and then respond to that. It makes the whole exercise far more worthwhile.
No, you are the only one saying there should be a reduction in the cost of the electricity provided. I don't believe the price of electricity will reduce ever. (Well possibly if nuclear fusion ever becomes reality)
Having read the previous posts again (on your advice) you appear to be contradicting yourself.
Okay, let's make electricity and other fuels soo expensive only the very rich can afford it. Global warming solved. Of course you would have to apply this to China and the rest of the developing world.
Are you referring to the economic effect of rising costs of fossil and nuclear fuels (through increased competition from China etc) on our fuel bills?:confused
Are you referring to the economic effect of rising costs of fossil and nuclear fuels (through increased competition from China etc) on our fuel bills?:confused
Not really. What I am trying to say is that whatever we do to try and combat global warming matters not one jot if other developing countrys are having their industrial revolution. Also the practice of clearing large areas of forest for bio fuels has a negative effect. The plans for the wind farms at Westerdale and Halsary are also in a huge area of forestry which will be cleared for the windmills. I don't have the answer for the global warming situation-like most of the politicians who represent us.
Not really. What I am trying to say is that whatever we do to try and combat global warming matters not one jot if other developing countrys are having their industrial revolution. Also the practice of clearing large areas of forest for bio fuels has a negative effect. The plans for the wind farms at Westerdale and Halsary are also in a huge area of forestry which will be cleared for the windmills. I don't have the answer for the global warming situation-like most of the politicians who represent us.
I understand what you are saying but I think you will concede the economic principle that continuing to be reliant on fossil and nuclear fuels in the the face of competition from the rapidly growing eastern economies will only serve to push up energy prices as demand will continue to outstrip production.
Now going back to your concerns with respect to climate change and carbon sequestration, a windfarm will mitigate much more carbon dioxide than the same area of woodland will sequester.
And since we have already been through our industrial revolution as such, it must be reasonable for us to take the initiative with respect to renewable energy. Under an international expansion, contraction and convergence agreement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraction_and_Convergence), rapidly growing countries like India and China would enjoy increased carbon emissions until such time that they would be expected to follow suit with the West as their economies mature. In the meantime, we could enjoy cheaper fuel prices via a reliance on renewable energy because by such times, non-renewables would be too uneconomical.
I understand what you are saying but I think you will concede the economic principle that continuing to be reliant on fossil and nuclear fuels in the the face of competition from the rapidly growing eastern economies will only serve to push up energy prices as demand will continue to outstrip production.
Now going back to your concerns with respect to climate change and carbon sequestration, a windfarm will mitigate much more carbon dioxide than the same area of woodland will sequester.
And since we have already been through our industrial revolution as such, it must be reasonable for us to take the initiative with respect to renewable energy. Under an international expansion, contraction and convergence agreement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraction_and_Convergence), rapidly growing countries like India and China would enjoy increased carbon emissions until such time that they would be expected to follow suit with the West as their economies mature. In the meantime, we could enjoy cheaper fuel prices via a reliance on renewable energy because by such times, non-renewables would be too uneconomical.
I haven't seen the figures with regards to how much co2 windfarms can mitigate over trees, but this only happens when there is wind. Also the concrete used in the production process for the bases must take many turns of the blades to balance out.
I haven't seen the figures with regards to how much co2 windfarms can mitigate over trees, but this only happens when there is wind. Also the concrete used in the production process for the bases must take many turns of the blades to balance out.
I've covered the subject on a number of occasions, however, you are obviously interested in the subject so you can make your own quantitative assessment by looking it up on Google, it is well documented. I doubt that you are the type to only believe what supports an anti-windfarm point of view and ignore real evidence.
Island wind turbines 'uneconomic'
Although this is taken from 'the news' most folk outwith the Highlands and Island are unlikely to see it, so for the benefit of others, here it is, and yes it would be better if turbines were built near to where it's needed, in fact it's blinking obvious:
"Large wind farm developments in the Western Isles are "uneconomic", a conservation charity has claimed. The John Muir Trust urged the government to instead build green energy generators closer to major population centres. The trust made its comments as a public inquiry into a 53-turbine development at the Eisgein Estate, in Lewis, draws to a close. It believes the turbines would damage one of Scotland's most beautiful areas. Helen McDade, spokeswoman for the John Muir Trust, said although wind turbines are estimated to generate between 15% and 20% more energy in the Western Isles than in the Central Belt the costs of transmission, including the lost energy from having to transport it such large distances, more than outweighed any advantage.
She added: "At the moment large scale wind developments on the Western Isles are costly, inefficient and hugely damaging for one of Scotland's most spectacular areas of wild land. "It is high time that the government woke up to the fact that we should be generating our power closer to home rather than artificially subsidising an otherwise doomed industry."
And so it goes on see:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/7414431.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/7414431.stm)
Bill Fernie
23-May-08, 18:07
Island wind turbines 'uneconomic'
Although this is taken from 'the news' most folk outwith the Highlands and Island are unlikely to see it, so for the benefit of others, here it is, and yes it would be better if turbines were built near to where it's needed, in fact it's blinking obvious:
"Large wind farm developments in the Western Isles are "uneconomic", a conservation charity has claimed. The John Muir Trust urged the government to instead build green energy generators closer to major population centres. The trust made its comments as a public inquiry into a 53-turbine development at the Eisgein Estate, in Lewis, draws to a close. It believes the turbines would damage one of Scotland's most beautiful areas. Helen McDade, spokeswoman for the John Muir Trust, said although wind turbines are estimated to generate between 15% and 20% more energy in the Western Isles than in the Central Belt the costs of transmission, including the lost energy from having to transport it such large distances, more than outweighed any advantage.
She added: "At the moment large scale wind developments on the Western Isles are costly, inefficient and hugely damaging for one of Scotland's most spectacular areas of wild land. "It is high time that the government woke up to the fact that we should be generating our power closer to home rather than artificially subsidising an otherwise doomed industry."
And so it goes on see:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/7414431.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/7414431.stm)
What the John Muir Trust view does not take account of is the possibility of moving a large power user to the place where the power is being produced. for example in Iceland a major aluminium indusrty has dveloped and is increasing hugely due to the geo-thermal energy available ( see some info on wikipeadia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Iceland )
So if a major power user such as a smelter came in then the power would not be lost in transmission. Icelnd has other attributes that also come together to make it happen - easy access by sea and on major shipping routes. Would the islands also fit this bill?
Of course even if the answer is yes it poses another major problem for the environmental lobby. Not only might they get a major wind farm but also a highly industrial site alongside. That would ensure jobs, homes, money and population retention or even expansion possibly but open up another debate.........
Bill, you raised some very good points regarding the technical problems of delivering renewable energy where it matters, something, as you say, that the John Muir Trust doesn't have a real grasp or chooses not to address.
In the Pre-feasibility Study (http://www.tocardo.com/?download=Pre-FeasibilityReport.pdf) of the Tocado tidal projects, it highlights their same problems of getting around intermittance, a feature that is shared by both tidal, wave and wind energies.
One suggestion was to promote solar panel manufacturing in Caithness as a local means of using excess energy when it could be needed.
In the light of this study, it becomes increasingly harder to refuse renewable energy projects their planning applications both in terms of energy security, the environment and job security.
I've covered the subject on a number of occasions, however, you are obviously interested in the subject so you can make your own quantitative assessment by looking it up on Google, it is well documented. I doubt that you are the type to only believe what supports an anti-windfarm point of view and ignore real evidence.
I will take time out to google, however I still think that 26 windmills from my window's view is enough already. I understand the plan for Westerdale is 60 turbines. I suppose you could call me a complaining AIMBY-already in my back yard.
ywindythesecond
24-May-08, 19:29
What the John Muir Trust view does not take account of is the possibility of moving a large power user to the place where the power is being produced. for example in Iceland a major aluminium indusrty has dveloped and is increasing hugely due to the geo-thermal energy available ( see some info on wikipeadia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Iceland )
So if a major power user such as a smelter came in then the power would not be lost in transmission. Icelnd has other attributes that also come together to make it happen - easy access by sea and on major shipping routes. Would the islands also fit this bill?
Of course even if the answer is yes it poses another major problem for the environmental lobby. Not only might they get a major wind farm but also a highly industrial site alongside. That would ensure jobs, homes, money and population retention or even expansion possibly but open up another debate.........
Bill
Taking the industry to the power is a great idea. It happened in Fort William and Kinlochleven with aluminium. And to some extent in Invergordon, but that was based on unsustainable subsidies.
The difference between wind and hydro when your process is energy dependent is that before you start a production run of aluminium, you know exactly how much water is in the dam therefore how much electricity will be available therefore how much aluminium you can make.
You just can't do it with wind. A large scale manufacturing process in the Western Isles would need an interconnector upgrade to supply power TO the Isles, not to take it from them, to ensure that the production run would be completed.
Regarding " big" windfarms and "big" industrial estates, the windfarm in question stretches about eight miles from start to finish. The biggest industrial site I was ever in was the Kirovsky Zavod in St Petersburg which made all the tanks for the Red Army, and it is only the size of a small town. Dingwall is about 1.5 miles square for example.
ywy2
ywindythesecond
24-May-08, 21:22
Pardon my ignorance but I thought wind, after the initial costs of these windmills was free. I have never seen a big workforce at the causeymire site after the windmills were erected. By your logic, if I installed a windmill to power my house, I would still expect a bill.
David,
The wind is free but windpower is not cheap. Windpower is not economically viable without subsidy. Tony Blair signed up to the Kyoto Agreement to reduce carbon emissions, came home and put the obligation on electricity generators to do it. Hence the Renewables Obligation. To make it worth their while, each megawatt generated by reneweables gets a Renewables Obligation Certificate (ROC) worth at least £45, plus the price of the electricity. This ROC is paid for by us through our electricity bills.
One typical 2.5MW turbine will be subsidised by us to the tune of £295,650 per annum. Renewable generation is nothing to do with saving the planet, it is about making money. Conventional generation has to run all the time for when the wind drops. And we pay for that at the same time.
2.5 MW x 24 Hrs x 365 days x 30% load factor x £45 per ROC = £295,650 per turbine.
David,
The wind is free but windpower is not cheap. Windpower is not economically viable without subsidy. Tony Blair signed up to the Kyoto Agreement to reduce carbon emissions, came home and put the obligation on electricity generators to do it. Hence the Renewables Obligation. To make it worth their while, each megawatt generated by reneweables gets a Renewables Obligation Certificate (ROC) worth at least £45, plus the price of the electricity. This ROC is paid for by us through our electricity bills.
One typical 2.5MW turbine will be subsidised by us to the tune of £295,650 per annum. Renewable generation is nothing to do with saving the planet, it is about making money. Conventional generation has to run all the time for when the wind drops. And we pay for that at the same time.
2.5 MW x 24 Hrs x 365 days x 30% load factor x £45 per ROC = £295,650 per turbine.
Just as I thought.
http://www.gci.org.uk/kite/Carbon_Countdown.pdf
Wow what great site design.....www.gci.org.uk ....
.....NOT....
Can anyone tell me exactly where these two new windfarms at Halsary and Westerdale will be and how many turbines in each please?
ywindythesecond
27-May-08, 00:07
http://www.gci.org.uk/kite/Carbon_Countdown.pdf
I have looked at this, and also at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraction_and_Convergence#Support
What is your point ?
ywy2
In order to reach these targets for, say, the UK, individuals would have to cut their personal emissions by between 60% and 90%.
Well why not ask us to just roll over and die - then we'll cut our emissions by 100%...
ywindythesecond
27-May-08, 22:48
Well why not ask us to just roll over and die - then we'll cut our emissions by 100%...
Won't work MadPict, methane is just as bad.
This in the news today...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7434915.stm
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