View Full Version : Think before a bet on National
coppertop 1958
04-Apr-08, 13:18
Think before a bet on National
Apr 4 2008 by Our Correspondent, South Wales Echo
SATURDAY is Grand National Day. How many people who have a flutter or take part in an office sweepstake are aware of how many horses are seriously injured and killed each year in this “sport”?
After the race is over and everyone has gone home, that’s when the real misery and suffering starts for the horses.
I’m not asking the public not to bet, or to boycott the National, but I am asking them to think before doing so.
Kevin Milkins
04-Apr-08, 13:22
Think before a bet on National
Apr 4 2008 by Our Correspondent, South Wales Echo
SATURDAY is Grand National Day. How many people who have a flutter or take part in an office sweepstake are aware of how many horses are seriously injured and killed each year in this “sport”?
After the race is over and everyone has gone home, that’s when the real misery and suffering starts for the horses.
I’m not asking the public not to bet, or to boycott the National, but I am asking them to think before doing so.
Hi coppertop1958.
I have no views either way on horse racing, but I am wondering what a Caithness lad is doing reading the South Wales Echo:lol:
coppertop 1958
04-Apr-08, 14:06
Hi coppertop1958.
I have no views either way on horse racing, but I am wondering what a Caithness lad is doing reading the South Wales Echo:lol:
its called reading the news ..........
have to say i go either way with this...I like the odd flutter but i do feel for the horses..But there is to much money to be made by organisers to stop the cruelty that the horses can face during and after the race,,But i have bet on it in the past but not for a few years now...
Kevin Milkins
04-Apr-08, 14:13
its called reading the news ..........
What I meant was do you have a connection with South Wales as that used to be my local paper. Like the Groat up here.
I would also agree with this - I have never placed a bet on any horse race, because I hate the thought of any animal being injured just so I could win some money. To me, any money I won would be blood money.
It's heartbreaking to hear about all the horses who die or are injured because of a race.
Shabbychic
04-Apr-08, 16:02
I agree with this, only I believe the Grand National should be banned altogether. It is sheer exploitation of horses for the greed of people.
ciderally
04-Apr-08, 16:10
Think before a bet on National
Apr 4 2008 by Our Correspondent, South Wales Echo
SATURDAY is Grand National Day. How many people who have a flutter or take part in an office sweepstake are aware of how many horses are seriously injured and killed each year in this “sport”?
After the race is over and everyone has gone home, that’s when the real misery and suffering starts for the horses.
I’m not asking the public not to bet, or to boycott the National, but I am asking them to think before doing so.
Good post coppertop...have been thinking the same for years now...same as the greyhound racing....i havent made a bet on racing for a lot of years..for that reason...i have a rescued greyhound...wish i could help them all..but going back to the horses its big money to the bookies, trainers and owners
northener
04-Apr-08, 19:19
Be careful you don't accuse all horse and greyhound owners of being cruel to their animals.
The ones who do look after their animals are never in the news.
Because let's face it, " greyhound is not mistreated" isn't going to sell many papers or get sympathy votes for antis.
BTW I'd say that the Grand National is one of the exceptions as far as I'm concerned. I like the race, it's thrilling, but it's a mass cavalry charge - not a race. You'd never get me placing one of my horses (if i had any) into that race. The risks are too high.
.
percy toboggan
04-Apr-08, 20:05
If it were not for the racing most of these horses would never draw breath.
I have no strong feelings either way but...
...as the passtimes of centuries are whittled away we seem less settled as a society...the fun seems to be being sucked out of life. I might have a bet, might not.
Riderless horses keep going......which says something....horses are supremely fit but stupid.... or they like racing...either of which justifies the race in my tired,jaundiced eyes.
The problem seems to stem from the use of horses bred for Flat racing but deemed not good enough. They are supposedly lighter boned, bred for speed and not up to the rigors of Jump racing.
Horse Racing bores me to death but this story is nothing more then scare mongering. I wonder how many of those who complain bitterly about the Grand National have ever actually been to Aintree to see the course, check the fences and see the horses after such a race?
Horse Racing bores me to death but this story is nothing more then scare mongering. I wonder how many of those who complain bitterly about the Grand National have ever actually been to Aintree to see the course, check the fences and see the horses after such a race?Thirty horses having died at Aintree since 1997 apparently, how many is too many?
Sorry, I lost my sentimentality a long time ago. The only way to stop any horses being injured or killed is to stop people having horses altogether.
I could express my opinion on what horses are good for but it would only upset some peoples' sensitivity too much.
donnalee1994
04-Apr-08, 21:22
Im sorry but i have to agree with jaws,when all said and done if the national was just a normal race then this would never be spoken about,that is the whole point of the national that it is a hard jumping race,yes it is a shame when a horse gets hurt but they all no the risks before they enter and the jumps have been drastically changed over the yrs to stop the horses being hurt,so im sorry i have always enjoy'd the national and always will.
buggyracer
04-Apr-08, 21:56
also when are they going to ban the muslims slaughtering innocent cows for the sake of religion?
also when are they going to ban the muslims slaughtering innocent cows for the sake of religion?Or westerners slaughtering innocent cows so they can have a triple cheeseburger or a nice pair of shoes with a matching handbag and Jacket.
I personally don't like the grand national race, I think it's cruel and unnecessary simply due to the horses being injured, I hate seeing them whipped, I won't read about it or watch it on tv let alone place a bet but each to their own eh!
Be careful you don't accuse all horse and greyhound owners of being cruel to their animals.
The ones who do look after their animals are never in the news.
Because let's face it, " greyhound is not mistreated" isn't going to sell many papers or get sympathy votes for antis.
BTW I'd say that the Grand National is one of the exceptions as far as I'm concerned. I like the race, it's thrilling, but it's a mass cavalry charge - not a race. You'd never get me placing one of my horses (if i had any) into that race. The risks are too high.
.
The majority of these horses are extreamly well looked after, they are bred for racing and until they for one reason or another retire all they know is the hard training.The national is a hard race with many injurys of both horses and riders , and i agree like a cavalry charge and high risk.
Im not for or against it , and all concernd know all the risks befor entering, i dont place any bets and only watch it on the odd occasion.
Im not for or against it , and all concernd know all the risks befor entering.Everyone apart from the horses apparently.
anyone got a tip for the grand national.:eek:
im putting an eachway bet on backbeat
im putting an eachway bet on backbeat
hello quirbal!!!is backbeat the favourite??
no its one of the outsiders so i can make big money.:)
no its one of the outsiders so i can make big money.:)
sound a bit risky:eek: whos the favourite?
cloudy lane is the favourite
what time does it start??
4.30 i think theres lots of stuff about the grand national on the bbc website
buggyracer
05-Apr-08, 11:42
Or westerners slaughtering innocent cows so they can have a triple cheeseburger or a nice pair of shoes with a matching handbag and Jacket.
at least this is done instantly and not like halal where the animal is left for often hours to die a slow death :mad:
my hot tip is contraband.:eek:
Kevin Milkins
05-Apr-08, 12:28
My 86 year old mother in law phoned this morning from Ebbw Vale to ask me to put a bet on for her as she can't get down town because it is snowing.
£2-50 each way on Snowy Morning and same on Apalachi. Not sure if she is in the know.:lol:
Sapphire2803
05-Apr-08, 14:21
In general, race horses love to race. Simple. The ones that don't, won't put the effort in and you'll never hear of them. The national is borderline, there are plenty of people who don't agree with it. I think it's fine since they changed the course a few years ago. As for whipping horses, just remember, they don't feel it the same as you would. Excessive use of the whip will get a jockey in trouble with the powers that be.
If you want to get up in arms about something, check out 3 day eventing!
Now that is wrong!
percy toboggan
05-Apr-08, 15:23
Never been one for online betting, but I've just been suckered into signing up with betfair via aol...'£25's worth of free bets' it said... if you sign up and put a tenner in yer account. I did it...then am told the free bets don't come up for at least eight hours...oh well, neve rmind it will just have to be a more mundane race next week if I can remember to put them on.
So..I've spent my tenner on three bets for this big race. A little interest in a big event...didn't those WAG women look stupidly awful in the newspapers? Blimey...mutton dressed as mutton...
If I win big this aft...I'm hoping for my £5.00 win bet to pay for two nights B & B in Scotland before April is out....otherwise we'll have to stage a bank raid.
An affinity for the Beatles inspired my each way choice...and the French word for money almost encapsulates my relative outsider on the two quid to win ticket.
Bakerbhoy
05-Apr-08, 15:59
In general, race horses love to race. Simple. The ones that don't, won't put the effort in and you'll never hear of them. The national is borderline, there are plenty of people who don't agree with it. I think it's fine since they changed the course a few years ago. As for whipping horses, just remember, they don't feel it the same as you would. Excessive use of the whip will get a jockey in trouble with the powers that be.
If you want to get up in arms about something, check out 3 day eventing!
Now that is wrong!
Any horse that competes either racing or eventing is extremely fit and well looked after.
What is wrong with 3 day eventing? After each stage the horse has to pass a vetting before it can continue to the next stage. These horses are very well trained and extremely fit. They are trained to do a job and they do it well!!
percy toboggan
05-Apr-08, 16:41
Mine: Backbeat...the Beatle horse with a long fringe fell at the second...early disappointment, especially for the jockey.
D'Argent the hooded grey.....ran well on the outside...jumped well too until about five from home when he took as tumble...was starting to get moderately excited..
Slim Pickings...chosen for the name alone - perhaps a reference to my meagre income...he was in contention and did finish..about fifth I think...not a bad doo but I backed it to win so knew I was on a bummer with half a minute to the finish...no palpitations...no wild cheering...and no easy money here at toboggan towers...darn.
Sapphire2803
05-Apr-08, 16:52
Any horse that competes either racing or eventing is extremely fit and well looked after.
What is wrong with 3 day eventing? After each stage the horse has to pass a vetting before it can continue to the next stage. These horses are very well trained and extremely fit. They are trained to do a job and they do it well!!
Yes, you're right, they are, but you stand a horse next to some of the jumps (not little local type events) and tell me that someone isn't pushing their luck expecting a horse to get up there...
It's definitely more worrying than the national (my opinion)
Bakerbhoy
05-Apr-08, 18:01
Yes, you're right, they are, but you stand a horse next to some of the jumps (not little local type events) and tell me that someone isn't pushing their luck expecting a horse to get up there...
It's definitely more worrying than the national (my opinion)
Each to their own opinion, I am all for that. Some of the jumps are big but others are no bigger than big show jumps they look more intimidating as they are rustic objects. Of all the horse related sports I would say flat racing is the hardest of all. Flat horses begin training at under 2 and are racing as 2 year olds because officially their birthdays are 1st Jan. They haven't even grown to full height at that age and still haven't matured but are expected to do a job that is physically demanding.
also when are they going to ban the muslims slaughtering innocent cows for the sake of religion?
I really don't understand your post. Slaughtering for food? Every carnivorous person leads to animals being slaughtered and not only cows are slaughtered.. Slaughtering by religious method for food? Not only muslims do this. Buggy racer, I am all for animal welfare, but like so many things we just throw out there in conversation, we don't always mean what we say or get understood the way we expect to. Unlike in a conversation, what we write stays (more or a less) permamnently. And your statement of fact (?) could be interpreted as prejudicial at worst, or ill informed at best.
oh well im £49 up thanks to comply or die..........:D
buggyracer
05-Apr-08, 19:38
I really don't understand your post. Slaughtering for food? Every carnivorous person leads to animals being slaughtered and not only cows are slaughtered.. Slaughtering by religious method for food? Not only muslims do this. Buggy racer, I am all for animal welfare, but like so many things we just throw out there in conversation, we don't always mean what we say or get understood the way we expect to. Unlike in a conversation, what we write stays (more or a less) permamnently. And your statement of fact (?) could be interpreted as prejudicial at worst, or ill informed at best.
the thread was in disaproval of horse racing as it was unkind to animals, i pointed out there are far more legitamte cases of being unkind to animals? i really struggle to find what of that you cant follow?
Sapphire2803
05-Apr-08, 21:34
oh well im £49 up thanks to comply or die..........:D
Well done you, I remember Timmy as a young lad on the Curragh years ago (he's a year younger than me) unlike some of the jockeys out there, he's a genuinely nice chap. We all used to go out and get absolutely buckled together at the weekends. Nice one Timmy, Well done.
the thread was in disaproval of horse racing as it was unkind to animals, i pointed out there are far more legitamte cases of being unkind to animals? i really struggle to find what of that you cant follow?
I can honestly say that animal welfare is one of the most important things to me. The thread is not about being unkind to animals, horses in particular, but about the injuries (often fatal: broken bones) they suffer to entertain the masses.
Just like horse racing, slaughter by religious method is legal in this country ( by the way, it isn't only muslims killing only cows, though I would have to consider your consideration of them being innocent accurate. Very strange, but accurate, as I have never known a cow -or other animal, infact- to be guilty). Both result in suffering to an extent of an animal. The cow feels a cut to the skin ( as you would when you cut yourself), followed by a rapid loss of conciousness and is dead within 20 seconds. This is to feed people. Lets say a horse on the race track falls and breaks a leg (extrememly painful). I don't think they shoot the horse on the track. It gets removed, gets seen by the vet, gets X-rayed. Decisions are made...... a wee bit more than 20 seconds would be my guess. This to entertain people. And my guess is that the horse would be just about as "innocent" as the cow.
With regard to the races themselves, the welfare of the horses could be looked after alot better by altering the course. They are work animals. We have used animals for our work for...........oh whatever, go look it up. Because we use an animal (work/meat/produce) does not mean we don't have a duty to care for their welfare. Race courses that are regulary causing casualties should be revised or boycotted. But we don't live in an ideal world for animals or for humans.
By the way, if I had to choose, I would choose to be the cow ;)mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooo
buggyracer
05-Apr-08, 23:31
when you stop guessing and have facts come back and i may listen. ;) :lol:
Well today was not a good day for my better half, as we had to go down to Inverness to collect Daughter-in-law and the grand kids who are up for a few days, so the wife puts sky+ on to record the big race, we come home at 6.30, puts on the Sky to watch the GN and it shows 'Failed' it looked like it swapped over from BBC2 to BBC1 at a certain time, but says 'failed technical fault-7', any idea what this means?.. She's up right now watching the 11.40 replay!
I don't think they shoot the horse on the track. It gets removed, gets seen by the vet, gets X-rayed. Decisions are made...... a wee bit more than 20 seconds would be my guess. A Vet follows the horses round the course in a car, as does a Doctor. This is something you rarely see on the Television coverage which obviously concentrates on the actual race. If you spot a parade of cars following the race on the inside of the course then that is what they are doing.
If a horse is injured to an extent where it needs to be killed, after the Vet has checked it, then it is carried out immediately on the course. Again you tend not to see that on the TV, they have this thing about people being squeamish. Other than that the horse is treated much the same way it would be if it were injured in a field or on the roads.
Much the same band-wagon happens every year when the Grand National comes round because it is such a popular race and gets so much publicity.
Not a word is said about Three Day Eventing or Cross Country Events which are generally far more dangerous to both horse and rider.
I notice that there is no indication of a Web Page for the item in the South Wales Echo or any indication as to which organisation the “Our” in “Our Correspondent” belongs to.
It certainly does not seem to be a Journalist with any link to the paper.
Frankly I find the lack of such information to be rather suspicious and am inclined to think that the reason is to disguise the fact that "Our Correspondent" is acting on behalf of a some Pressure Group or other.
Perhaps coppertop 1958 could dispel such suspicions by indicating the web page where the original information can be found.
Well, Coppertop. I saw your post too late. The National is the one race that we have a flutter on each year and this was no exception. 9.30am saw me placing my £1 ew on three horses (they'll not make much out of me ;)) and one of them came in, so I get a whole £3.50 back - woopee!:confused
Sad that Mckelvey died though. I always hate it when a horse or jockey gets hurt.
when you stop guessing and have facts come back and i may listen. ;) :lol:
Like the fact that muslims kill innocent cows?
Quite a few people are studying horse injuries in all events, JAWS ( for eg: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/evj/evj/2001/00000033/00000005/art00010)
I would have thought that with the crowds there and with the way people are with their animals here, they would not kill the animal in public, but remove it first.
You are right, the national is the most visible and so attracts the most attention to injuries. I have read that it is a dangerous track though, and could be improved, but that would change the nature of the race. I can't find where I read it though (long time ago). I do think it's sad that if things could be improved, that it's not done for reasons of entertainment. For me, watching something that could result in suffing is not that far removed from outright cruelty, such as bull fighting or badger baiting.
McKelvey was the 174th horse to die in a race this season. How many does it take before something is done to stop this slaughter in the name of sport?
Bakerbhoy
06-Apr-08, 12:15
If a horse is injured to the extent it has to be put to sleep, it is done on the track with screens erected around so that the public cannot see anything.
If a horse is injured to the extent it has to be put to sleep, it is done on the track with screens erected around so that the public cannot see anything.Put to death would be a more apt statement. How many have to be killed?
McKelvey was the 174th horse to die in a race this season. How many does it take before something is done to stop this slaughter in the name of sport?
I know I am going to annoy a lot of people by saying this - so sorry in advance!
How on earth can people enjoy watching a race, knowing that statistics show that so many horses die while taking part or just after taking part in that same race - just so people can win some money?
When you win money after placing a bet, knowing that a horse actually died due to injuries suffered from taking part in that race, how do you feel? Is the money worth it?
Sorry - it's beyond me. Apologies in advance if I offend anyone by saying how I feel! [para]
Shabbychic
06-Apr-08, 15:44
I know I am going to annoy a lot of people by saying this - so sorry in advance!
How on earth can people enjoy watching a race, knowing that statistics show that so many horses die while taking part or just after taking part in that same race - just so people can win some money?
When you win money after placing a bet, knowing that a horse actually died due to injuries suffered from taking part in that race, how do you feel? Is the money worth it?
Sorry - it's beyond me. Apologies in advance if I offend anyone by saying how I feel! [para]
I totally agree with you. Doesn't the name of the winner this year say it all really, "Comply or Die".
I totally agree with you. Doesn't the name of the winner this year say it all really, "Comply or Die".
I know - I found that name quite sad when I saw it advertised.
I have never placed a bet on any horse race, and I never would - I would hate to win money in a way that involved animal cruelty. Because that's what it is.
Sapphire2803
06-Apr-08, 15:49
I know - I found that name quite sad when I saw it advertised.
I have never placed a bet on any horse race, and I never would - I would hate to win money in a way that involved animal cruelty. Because that's what it is.
Out of curiosity... Have you ever had anything to do with the horse racing industry? Or is this an opinion based on what you've seen on TV?
Margaret M.
06-Apr-08, 15:51
McKelvey was the 174th horse to die in a race this season.
When I first read that I missed the 'this season' part -- that is a startling statistic.
Apologies in advance if I offend anyone by saying how I feel! [para]
Your feelings are yours and you are as free as everyone else to express them. There is no need to apologize and certainly not to me since I agree with you. There is much to enjoy in life without anything having to suffer and die in the process.
Out of curiosity... Have you ever had anything to do with the horse racing industry? Or is this an opinion based on what you've seen on TV?
No, I haven't had anything to do with the horse racing industry, and I know what you're saying. It's just my opinion, and I don't expect everyone to agree with it. I'm the first to admit that I don't really know much about horse racing, but I do know that it causes a lot of injuries and deaths, from what I read in the media.
As I said, it's just my opinion - I love animals, and I hate to see or hear of them being hurt.
I know other people enjoy watching the races, and like to put bets on etc - it's just something I don't agree with.
Out of curiosity... Have you ever had anything to do with the horse racing industry? Or is this an opinion based on what you've seen on TV?
No one can be an expert in every area, but a person can have an informed opinion, that might include watching tv. I have never been a soldier, but think I am qualified enough to have an opinion about war, especially if it affects my life. I have never taken drugs, but think I know enough not to. I don't have to jump off a cliff to realize it probably hurts a little on the way down. You really do not need to be a jockey to look at the fact that animals are being injured for entertainment ( and I know that it doesn't only happen here and that there are places where things are worse).
Animal welfare is a funny thing. The standards required differ hugely, even with very similair animals. The welfare standards for a battery chicken are one, and if you are dealing with say a swan, completely different. The requirements for the welfare of a cow are of one order, yet for a horse completely another. You can do to a lamb what could get you convicted for cruelty if carried out on a dog. Yet all feel through the same pathways and their relative sufferings are no less or greater for being from a different species. Which makes animal welfare relative: relative to the way we feel about certain animals.
My definition of animal welfare is that the animal be allowed to carry out it's life as naturally as possible, and that when we need to use them for whatever pupose ( food, work, racing, whatever!), we have a duty to reduce the risks to their welfare as much as we can. I don't think the racing industry does this, because it would change the race and maybe lose the interest of punters in the process.
Sapphire2803
06-Apr-08, 21:31
No, I haven't had anything to do with the horse racing industry, and I know what you're saying. It's just my opinion, and I don't expect everyone to agree with it. I'm the first to admit that I don't really know much about horse racing, but I do know that it causes a lot of injuries and deaths, from what I read in the media.
As I said, it's just my opinion - I love animals, and I hate to see or hear of them being hurt.
I know other people enjoy watching the races, and like to put bets on etc - it's just something I don't agree with.
I'm glad you didn't take that as a dig... It wasn't :)
Just bear in mind though, how many thousands of horses race every year and how few are humanely destroyed. Those horses really do live in the lap of luxury, the best of everything. How many horse owners do you know who actually completely clear out their stables every day and put in all fresh straw? and then pop back in the afternoon to muck out again?
Remember as well that lots of horses have to be destroyed every year who are nothing to do with racing. These are horses who are well kept by people, as pets pretty much. One step wrong for a horse and it's a bullet.
Look at it this way... If you knew someone who had a hobby or job that they absolutely loved. If they died doing it, people would say 'At least he died doing something he loved'.
The same could be said for the horses, they run like that because they love it. The ones who don't like to race, won't put any effort in and they get sold off.
I'm glad you didn't take that as a dig... It wasn't :)
Just bear in mind though, how many thousands of horses race every year and how few are humanely destroyed. Those horses really do live in the lap of luxury, the best of everything. How many horse owners do you know who actually completely clear out their stables every day and put in all fresh straw? and then pop back in the afternoon to muck out again?
Remember as well that lots of horses have to be destroyed every year who are nothing to do with racing. These are horses who are well kept by people, as pets pretty much. One step wrong for a horse and it's a bullet.
Look at it this way... If you knew someone who had a hobby or job that they absolutely loved. If they died doing it, people would say 'At least he died doing something he loved'.
The same could be said for the horses, they run like that because they love it. The ones who don't like to race, won't put any effort in and they get sold off.
Sapphire i have been trying to word what i wanted to say but you have just done it for me, thanks:) If we all looked carefully we would find quite a few horses verging on being neglected right under our noses, and very few including my lot are mucked out twice a day or treated as well as racehorses.They do only have the best as you say.
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