View Full Version : King & King....a Muslim protest
percy toboggan
02-Apr-08, 20:16
A bunch of worried Muslim parents have protested to a primary school and forced the Head to remove books describing homosexual relationships to children as young as five.
One of the titles was 'King & King' ..another was 'Tango Makes Three' about two male penguins who fall in love in a New York Zoo...apparently ( I'm not sure how they got 'Tangoed'...unless he was another bloke penguin looking for a menagerie-de-trois)
Well, it seems to me we owe the Bristol based Islamics a debt of thanks...five year olds do not need to know about same sex relationships.
Perhaps twelve and thirteen year olds might need to, but it beats me why so many in the teaching profession are falling over themselves to introduce this kind of tripe in our schools. And it beats me why need a minority religious grouping to point this out.
Percy, while I agree partly with your comments, 12 or 13 year olds are not the same as we were many moons ago. They are a lot more mature in certain areas than we may have been, sex education whether it is same sex or hetro needs to be introduced earlier and indeed same sex relationships have a part to play in lives today. Many 5 year old kids may well be from a family that is same sex, its a fact of life today, they need to be aware of it early on, maybe not the nitty gritty but to be shown that same sex relationships are around.
I agree with you though that minority groups should have no hand in what our schools chose to stock on their bookshelves or indeed what our children are taught, allowed to read etc, dont like it then take your child to a school that follows your religion. I am in no way a racist but things are getting out of hand, we are a christian country, not a muslim country. If the shoe was on the other foot ......
percy toboggan
02-Apr-08, 20:57
I didn't say minority groups should have 'no hand' in what's in our schools. I publicly thanked them for speaking out. They have every right to be concerned abou their kids education. Whether they have a right to be 'here' is another matter I don't want to get into. They are here...and have to be accommodated to a degree.
'Many' 5 year olds are from 'same sex families' ?? Many in what context? A few perhaps...but not 'many'
'Same sex relationships are around'...around what?around who? I don't know of any...neither do any of my children or my friends...of course they exist...but they are peripheral to society not a cornerstone of it.
The numbers of civil partnerships has dwindled since they came in in a blaze of glory.
Twelve and Thirteen year olds are exactly the same as they were many moons ago...only society has changed...and expected them to keep up...well I say stuff society....let them be kids while they still are...just about...adulthood and all its attendant difficulties will arrive soon enough.
So what is the 'cornerstone' of society. and is there only one?
percy toboggan
02-Apr-08, 22:25
So what is the 'cornerstone' of society. and is there only one?
There is if you're talking about 'the cornerstone'....but I'd say there are several...
Presumably you're asking me Angela.., and thereby assume I'm competent to answer...I'll have a go..
Family...ideally a conventional nuclear family but single Mums and Dad's often manage almost equally well, or even better...though the odds are stacked against them sometimes.
Law...A common set of rules a society can live by....
Monetary system...in which society can have confidence...
Education...to give all of it's members at least a semblance of a level playing field (difficult, if not impossible)
Industry...of whatever kind to utilise skills and afford individuals a means to prosper.
That's all I can immediately summon up...I'm sorry if you were expecting to me to include 'an early appreciation in schools of the needs of homosexual couples'
Such a consideration is about as far removed from a fundamental need as it is possible to get in my opinion.
Percy, while I agree partly with your comments, 12 or 13 year olds are not the same as we were many moons ago. They are a lot more mature in certain areas than we may have been, sex education whether it is same sex or hetro needs to be introduced earlier and indeed same sex relationships have a part to play in lives today. Many 5 year old kids may well be from a family that is same sex, its a fact of life today, they need to be aware of it early on, maybe not the nitty gritty but to be shown that same sex relationships are around.
I agree with you though that minority groups should have no hand in what our schools chose to stock on their bookshelves or indeed what our children are taught, allowed to read etc, dont like it then take your child to a school that follows your religion. I am in no way a racist but things are getting out of hand, we are a christian country, not a muslim country. If the shoe was on the other foot ......If it takes a minority group to see how utterly wrong it is to be teaching about homosexuality to 5 year olds then they deserve our utmost respect. This is absolutely nothing to do with their religion versus ours, this is about the moral issue of teaching children as young as 5 about homsexuality.
If it was based on Muslim religion being offended at our schools choosing to teach our children about homosexuality, then yes it is wrong for the school to take such action. As much as I respect any other persons religion or belief they should in turn respect our society's religion or belief. Can we not co-excist together, would the logical thing not be to make other books available that wont offended them or other classes available which avoid subjects that cause offence to them? We do it on menu's and meals available for all diets, dress codes and such. May be then we might become a more intergrated and understanding country.
This is absolutely nothing to do with their religion versus ours, this is about the moral issue of teaching children as young as 5 about homsexuality.
Was it not about teaching children of five about same sex relationships ?
Well, it seems to me we owe the Bristol based Islamics a debt of thanks...five year olds do not need to know about same sex relationships.
As for teaching childen as young as five about homosexuality being wrong, yes I agree they are to young for the " sexual education " that schools deliver as they approach their teens. Children as young as five though should be educated that same sex parents are not uncommen in our society and be brought up without prejudice against this.
If it was based on Muslim religion being offended at our schools choosing to teach our children about homosexuality, then yes it is wrong for the school to take such action. As much as I respect any other persons religion or belief they should in turn respect our society's religion or belief. Can we not co-excist together, would the logical thing not be to make other books available that wont offended them or other classes available which avoid subjects that cause offence to them? We do it on menu's and meals available for all diets, dress codes and such. May be then we might become a more intergrated and understanding country. It was based on concerned parents not wishing to have their children indoctrinated with literature the parents were uncomfortable with, nothing to do with religion.
Was it not about teaching children of five about same sex relationships ? Errrrr, yeah.:confused Homosexuality is about same sex relationships.
As for teaching childen as young as five about homosexuality being wrong, yes I agree they are to young for the " sexual education " that schools deliver as they approach their teens. Children as young as five though should be educated that same sex parents are not uncommen in our society and be brought up without prejudice against this.I agree to disagree with you there.
So whilst the children are being taught about same sex relationships are their other studies being neglected?
As a parent and a grandparent I too would be more than a little annoyed if I found such books in the infant school.
Whilst appreciating that children need to know that there are relationships other than the conventional family I do feel that this should come later in the corriculum when they have more comprehension of life in general.
Why are the education authorities so hell bent on political correctness and why can they not concentrate on the basic skills that will be the necessity of all future learning ?
A five to seven year old is still a very young child and neither we or those that educate them should be putting these sort of pressures on them.
Growing up will be hard enough.
lynne duncan
02-Apr-08, 23:45
so in this day and age when there are i suppose children of same sex "parent" families about, are the teaching establishment supposed to ignore them when they are using reading matter,
so which reading matter should they use old fashioned 2 white english parent "john and mary" and 2 white children " little john and little mary" had a lovely sunday dinner and then went to church!
tell me in which class in which school you will find the child from the right background!!!!
would a child of five find a problem about same sex parents or different colour parents or parents with different religious beliefs, no only the narrow minded parents!
so in this day and age when there are i suppose children of same sex "parent" families about, are the teaching establishment supposed to ignore them when they are using reading matter,
so which reading matter should they use old fashioned 2 white english parent "john and mary" and 2 white children " little john and little mary" had a lovely sunday dinner and then went to church!
tell me in which class in which school you will find the child from the right background!!!!
would a child of five find a problem about same sex parents or different colour parents or parents with different religious beliefs, no only the narrow minded parents!
No. I don't think that the teaching establishment is supposed to "ignore" children of same sex families. These are issues that can be raised within the context of a discussion in the classroom should the need arise. However, what we have heard about here is an entirely different scenario, where the same sex family is being promoted to early years pupils. I think that promotion is a fair word to use as we are not talking about a single book, the Islamic group in question have complained about the availability of 2 titles for early years reading.
so in this day and age when there are i suppose children of same sex "parent" families about, are the teaching establishment supposed to ignore them when they are using reading matter,
so which reading matter should they use old fashioned 2 white english parent "john and mary" and 2 white children " little john and little mary" had a lovely sunday dinner and then went to church!
tell me in which class in which school you will find the child from the right background!!!!
would a child of five find a problem about same sex parents or different colour parents or parents with different religious beliefs, no only the narrow minded parents!You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to disagree with it. There is no need for 5 year olds to be taught about homosexuality. Let them live their formative years and these children will show you a thing or two about overcoming predudice. Racism is learned behaviour, homophobia is learned behavour, religious intolerance is learned behaviour. Kids as young as five do not need help from adults to overcome predudice. They have none.
It would seem that one of the main complaints was that there was a total lack of consultation over the issue being introduced.
When Sex Education is taught to children at a later stage parents, in England at least, have the right to decide if their children should receive such lesson or not. What has happened in this case is that the matter has been introduced using lessons which are compulsory thereby deliberately bypassing the protections give to parents to have some control over such matters.
The children are being taught about same sex relationships without them having been taught about heterosexual relationships.
The excuse given by the local Education Authority is that they have a duty to prevent homophobic bullying. That, when it comes to five year olds, would seem to be nothing more than a lame excuse.
Where problems concerning same sex relationships, or any other kind for that matter, actually occur in schools leading to even a hint of bullying then yes that should be addressed. The manner in which it is being done in Bristol is to make an assumption that it is definitely likely to occur amongst five year olds and must therefore be addressed to put a stop to it.
Using the same line of thinking perhaps we should be teaching five year olds about relationships involving drug users, alcoholics, prostitution, dementia and a thousand other things involved in relationships which do not fall into the Mummy, Daddy and two children category. After all, there is nothing to say that bullying will occur as a result of those situations either and are certainly just as common, if not more so, than same sex relationships.
Personally, I think the problem lay with the perceptions of the adults who appear to be seeing a problem amongst five year olds which is simply not there.
brokencross
03-Apr-08, 08:37
When Section, sometimes called Clause 28, of the Local Government Act 1988 was repealed in 2003, we were told it was to remove the perceived discrimination against homosexuals.
We were were assured by the politicians and homosexual rights groups that it would not result in the promotion of homosexuality within schools.
Surely introducing reading material of this nature, especially to 5 year olds who hold no prejudice, is actively promoting the lifestyle and will only lead to confusion more than enlightening the youngsters. Disguising the message through "Fairy Tales" is rather sneaky as it distances it from real life and somehow legitimises the promotion of homosexuality.
How many little boys have girl friends and the parents tease them by saying "Are you going going to marry so'n'so?" Loads.
Will they be saying that to two little boys or two little girls who are inseparable, I don't think so.
The friendships and bonds at this young age are totally innocent and should be nurtured; nothing should be introduced into their minds to take away this innocence.
Of course there is a time and a place for young people to be told that homosexual relationships exist. The time is when the parent feels the young person, their child, is mature enough to understand the concept. The place is certainly not in the infant school setting where the range of maturity and level of understanding is so vast.
I am not anti-homosexual but do get really annoyed by this constant drip-drip feed of "equality" and "discrimination" claims. I am old fashioned, I think father, mother and 2.4 children is the normal nuclear family. I accept there are other family compositions, that is their choice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_28
Personally, i think we SHOULD be teaching out kids about other types of relationships. My 8 year old has an understanding of what "gay" means now...
but simply a man and a man, or a woman and a woman fall in love.
fair enough, they may be to young to learn about the sexuality of it all, but i would say that inlcudes hetrosexual relationships too.
i would have no objections to my son reading such a book, and be happy to answer any questions he has. Some of those 5 year olds may very well grow up to find they are homosexual.. and if this has been openly discussed and not hidden as some dirty little secret, they they might be able to avoid some of the traumas that previous generations have had.
I also dont see it as "promoting" honosexuality, its just acceptance, plain and simple.
Welcomefamily
03-Apr-08, 09:14
Well done to the group of muslims for pointing it out, its hard enough for kids to make sense of a society in moral and social decline.
I have to totally agree with you broken cross.
A five to seven year old is still a very young child and neither we or those that educate them should be putting these sort of pressures on them.
Growing up will be hard enough.
Lizz, you have got it right as far as I am concerned.
What is moraly wrong with making children aware of same sex relationships ?
I have said and Honey also, its not about the nitty gritty sexual side of it, but they should be shown that some one else in their class or someone they know may have a family with two dads or two mums.
You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to disagree with it. There is no need for 5 year olds to be taught about homosexuality. Let them live their formative years and these children will show you a thing or two about overcoming predudice. Racism is learned behaviour, homophobia is learned behavour, religious intolerance is learned behaviour. Kids as young as five do not need help from adults to overcome predudice. They have none.
As has been mentioned in other threads, children are being forced to grow up far too quickly and TBH is right - any prejudices young children have are learnt from adults. Left to themselves children accept differences. 5 is too young for any type of sex education. If a child asks a question about any of the subjects TBH mentions, they should be explained simply and without prejudice. Young children are taught, or learn via tv and computers, too many things these days that they simply don't need to know until they are older.
Same sex relationships should be accepted like any other kind but why can't 5 year olds live in a fictional world for a while longer - hard reality hits soon enough.
Here is what the review of the book on amazon says - promoting homosexuality? I dont think so... make up your own minds... I have to confess it made me smile.
Tango makes Three
Starred Review. PreSchool-Grade 3-This tale based on a true story about a charming penguin family living in New York City's Central Park Zoo will capture the hearts of penguin lovers everywhere. Roy and Silo, two male penguins, are "a little bit different." They cuddle and share a nest like the other penguin couples, and when all the others start hatching eggs, they want to be parents, too. Determined and hopeful, they bring an egg-shaped rock back to their nest and proceed to start caring for it. They have little luck, until a watchful zookeeper decides they deserve a chance at having their own family and gives them an egg in need of nurturing. The dedicated and enthusiastic fathers do a great job of hatching their funny and adorable daughter, and the three can still be seen at the zoo today. Done in soft watercolors, the illustrations set the tone for this uplifting story, and readers will find it hard to resist the penguins' comical expressions. The well-designed pages perfectly marry words and pictures, allowing readers to savor each illustration. An author's note provides more information about Roy, Silo, Tango, and other chinstrap penguins. This joyful story about the meaning of family is a must for any library
King and King again from Amazon.co
When a grouchy queen tells her layabout son that it's time for him to marry, he sighs, "Very well, Mother.... I must say, though, I've never cared much for princesses." His young page winks. Several unsatisfactory bachelorettes visit the castle before "Princess Madeleine and her brother, Prince Lee" appear in the doorway. The hero is smitten at once. "What a wonderful prince!" he and Prince Lee both exclaim, as a shower of tiny Valentine hearts flutters between them. First-time co-authors and artists de Hann and Nijland matter-of-factly conclude with the royal wedding of "King and King," the page boy's blushing romance with the leftover princess and the assurance that "everyone lives happily ever after." Unfortunately, the multimedia collages are cluttered with clashing colors, amorphous paper shapes, scribbles of ink and bleary brushstrokes; the characters' features are indistinct and sometimes ugly. Despite its gleeful disruption of the boy-meets-girl formula, this alterna-tale is not the fairest of them all. Ages 6-up.
Im not sure i would fancy this one much to be honest but is it promoting homosexuality? I dont think so. Are they Sex Education? Absolutely not. If however parents are offended by these books - whatever their religion they have a right to say so. I remember my dad telling me that my grandfather was horrified when he got "The Cruel Sea" as a sunday school prize - prostitution and adultery were part of the story. How times change - or do they
There is no need for 5 year olds to be taught about homosexuality .
but i bet the same folks that agree with this statement would be quite happy to have 5 year olds taught about hetrosexual ralationships though??
there is a world of difference between sex education and teaching kids about different lifestyles.. my eldest learns about all sorts of different cultures religions etc at school, so why not same sex relationships.
He has already told me when he grows up hes either going to be "married, coupled or gay" and his explanations of these were very good for someone so young, and totally without predujice.. he could put some adults i know to shame with his acceptance to all of these.
I feel strongly that kids of primary school age should not be exposed to this same-sex nonsense. I don't know if it's appropriate for secondary school either to be honest. I really find it hard to believe that there are books published such as Tango makes three etc for kids of such a young age. The publishers of such bilge clearly have an agenda.
What is "same sex nonsense"? - im not sure what you mean?
If you mean they shouldnt be discussing what goes on in the bedroom of same sex couples then i absolutely agree with you - but neither should they be discussing what goes on in the bedrooms of heterosexual couples - other than basic education about where babies come from.
If you mean that they should have no discussion at all about the fact that same sex couples can and do live together in a loving, committed relationship then I dont agree. I dont see what is wrong about acknowledging partof our society is made up of same sex couples.
To clarify...
I do not, under any circumstances, want someone in a position of authority at school, with an agenda which is not clear, preaching to my kids about same-sex relationships. Exposure to such material at such an impressionable age is clearly wrong. I cannot reconcile myself to any argument to the contrary.
I will make the decisions as to what is right or wrong for my own children.
Here is what the review of the book on amazon says - promoting homosexuality? I dont think so... make up your own minds... I have to confess it made me smile.
Tango makes Three
Starred Review. PreSchool-Grade 3-This tale based on a true story about a charming penguin family living in New York City's Central Park Zoo will capture the hearts of penguin lovers everywhere. Roy and Silo, two male penguins, are "a little bit different." They cuddle and share a nest like the other penguin couples, and when all the others start hatching eggs, they want to be parents, too. Determined and hopeful, they bring an egg-shaped rock back to their nest and proceed to start caring for it. They have little luck, until a watchful zookeeper decides they deserve a chance at having their own family and gives them an egg in need of nurturing. The dedicated and enthusiastic fathers do a great job of hatching their funny and adorable daughter, and the three can still be seen at the zoo today. Done in soft watercolors, the illustrations set the tone for this uplifting story, and readers will find it hard to resist the penguins' comical expressions. The well-designed pages perfectly marry words and pictures, allowing readers to savor each illustration. An author's note provides more information about Roy, Silo, Tango, and other chinstrap penguins. This joyful story about the meaning of family is a must for any library
King and King again from Amazon.co
When a grouchy queen tells her layabout son that it's time for him to marry, he sighs, "Very well, Mother.... I must say, though, I've never cared much for princesses." His young page winks. Several unsatisfactory bachelorettes visit the castle before "Princess Madeleine and her brother, Prince Lee" appear in the doorway. The hero is smitten at once. "What a wonderful prince!" he and Prince Lee both exclaim, as a shower of tiny Valentine hearts flutters between them. First-time co-authors and artists de Hann and Nijland matter-of-factly conclude with the royal wedding of "King and King," the page boy's blushing romance with the leftover princess and the assurance that "everyone lives happily ever after." Unfortunately, the multimedia collages are cluttered with clashing colors, amorphous paper shapes, scribbles of ink and bleary brushstrokes; the characters' features are indistinct and sometimes ugly. Despite its gleeful disruption of the boy-meets-girl formula, this alterna-tale is not the fairest of them all. Ages 6-up.
Im not sure i would fancy this one much to be honest but is it promoting homosexuality? I dont think so. Are they Sex Education? Absolutely not. If however parents are offended by these books - whatever their religion they have a right to say so. I remember my dad telling me that my grandfather was horrified when he got "The Cruel Sea" as a sunday school prize - prostitution and adultery were part of the story. How times change - or do theyAlthough neither stories have mention of homosexual sex apart from an alluding wink from the page boy, it is still promoting homosexualuality to children who have no need whatsoever to concern themselves with it at such a young age. Why not have stories about the fairy prince daddy that likes wearing his wifes underwear and make-up.
To clarify...
I do not, under any circumstances, want someone in a position of authority at school, with an agenda which is not clear, preaching to my kids about same-sex relationships. Exposure to such material at such an impressionable age is clearly wrong. I cannot reconcile myself to any argument to the contrary.
I will make the decisions as to what is right or wrong for my own children.
You absolutely have the right to do so - I am not questioning that right at all. I am not even saying you are wrong but i am interested in exploring what you and others mean when they use words like promoting homosexuality and preaching because I dont understand how simple discussions about the facts that same sex couples exist is either preaching or promoting. I am not clear why people feel that this amusing and gentle story about a couple of penguins is so wrong. I really am not trying to be confrontational i am just trying to explore another viewpoint that is different from mine thats all. To me promoting something means to encourage participation or to show people how great something is and preaching is about advocating that something is better than something else.
The chances are that the poor teacher who is charged with such a task is as non-plussed as the rest of us. We have to ask the question, what, or perhaps more importantly who, is driving this?
It certainly cannot be a decision taken after consultation with parents as you would find that 99% of those parents would agree that this is un-necessary and possibly harmful to innocent children.
There is not, and never has been, the need for such intervention. Some would say intrusion.
So that is what I mean by agenda, promotion, preaching etc.
I dont want my children coming home from school asking questions which I am ill equipped to answer.
Thanks for answering CD1977 - these questions arent simply aimed at you lol - Ill be interested to see what others think too.
I dont want my children coming home from school asking questions which I am ill equipped to answer.
Im glad you didnt get my (now 18) 7 year olds question then - "mummy what is a hermaphradite (sp)?" :roll: Did i have to look it up? Fortunately no - but i have raised a smile about it a few times
What questions could be foreseen then from a book like tango makes three? What harm can be done from a simple acknowledgement that same sex relationships exist?
It may be gentle persuasion, but it still has an effect.
I have no problem with a parent buying "Tango makes three" and explaining that to their children. That is their freedom of choice.
I do have a problem with my children being exposed to this material at a young age. There is no call for it. It sends a mixed and confused message at a time when they have no real requirement for it.
weeboyagee
03-Apr-08, 17:56
How times change - or do they
Nah,... they don't! The "softer" lads (or lasses) still get picked on and battered at the school and ridiculed for being lesser male or female than the rest - who grow up to be horrified of the fact that such mortals exist in society. Nothing's changed there.
Some of them probably wish for it to be no more simpler than how it shown to be in the books discussed here.
But,.... introduction of such facts of life to kids that are not, I would argue, at the age of understanding is an element of promotion through the back door of something to be confronted later in life. However, some of them are well aware of male "friends" and female "friends" and I am sure that's how they see it - they haven't got the understanding to see it as anything else.
Going by what Squidge has posted and (I would dare to say) considering that most probably haven't read the books, it's back down to individual choice. The education system to my mind could do with a full blanket review of some of the trash made available to our kids of all school ages in their libraries or core reading material.
A return to slate and chalk and the one-to-one oral instruction of the teacher .... that should do the trick, unless of course the teacher is.....
WBG :cool:
percy toboggan
03-Apr-08, 18:33
Children as young as five though should be educated that same sex parents are not uncommen in our society and be brought up without prejudice against this.
RUBBISH !
of course they are 'uncommon' and five years olds do not need to know about them anyway.
percy toboggan
03-Apr-08, 18:53
Thanks for the synopses Squidge..the first book seems to promote the belief that you can have whatever you want to have , even if it flies in the face of nature. Young kids need to be schooled in the occasional disappointment.
'You Can'tAlways Get What You Want' ... to use a Rolling Stones title. Homosexual fertility facilitated, if not 'promoted' so to speak.
The second seems like fanciful garbage. Five year olds have no notion of sexuality...as they grow older this changes of course until the onset of puberty when all kinds of conflicting mental messages are quite 'normal'...it is not unusual, nor un-natural for a pubescent child to have a crush on another of the same sex. If such relationships are normalised. or worse still promoted this could lead to a whole different set of choices for adolescents as they head for adulthood.
Homosexuality is being promoted...there is no doubt of this...it is an entirely natural state for many of them...for some a case of nurture over nature, for fewer it is a case of following the line of least resistance, for still fewer a lifestyle choice.
Natural yes...normal no. Any attempt to 'normalise homosexuality should be resisted (many thinking homosexuals agree).If this task is falling to Muslims in our society then it is a sad indictment of the Anglican Church and the Roman Catholic faith....not to mention the rump of apathetic agnostics. laissez fayre atheists and a generally sickening liberal, anything goes kind of attitude which is pulling this country down.
What questions could be foreseen then from a book like tango makes three? What harm can be done from a simple acknowledgement that same sex relationships exist?Exactly why would Children as young as five need to know about same-sex relationships?
Sapphire2803
03-Apr-08, 19:30
I don't see it as promotion of homosexuality. That would be wrong, however I also think that promotion of heterosexuality is wrong. Nothing should be promoted as such. A basic awareness is surely a part of a rounded education? It has been stated on this thread that the children may never come into contact with this, so they don't need to know about it. Well stop teaching them about polar bears then!! These are just story books. The one about the penguins is not about homsexuality, it's about two penguins who formed a strong attachment to each other and happened to both be male!
Gay penguins? Get a grip!
Personally, I think that a passing mention in a story is probably the ideal way to make children aware that other families can be different. They probably won't even notice it and as it will filter into their subconscious, then it will (hopefully) help them when they do notice a same sex couple.
You can't make a person grow up to be gay by reading them the wrong stories. Making a fuss about these books (and other things) WILL be noticed on some level by children, this will teach them that same sex couples are wrong (otherwise why all the fuss?) is that what people want?
I mean if you're that set against it, then don't worry, bigotry is best taught at home anyway. A childhood spent hearing anti-gay comments will teach them all they ever need to know and then when they hit puberty and realise that they're not actually attracted to the opposite sex.... well, we're back to unhappy marriages for the sake of appearances. Live and let live. If you've nothing against children hearing a Mummy and Daddy story and you're not homophobic, then why would you have a problem with a Daddy and Daddy story?
Same sex couples really are not that rare these days, I know several. I don't actually know any male couples with children, the reason for that is usually that with attitudes being what they are, they wouldn't wish it on a child.
I do know a few lesbian couples with children, do you think the other children in their class won't notice that they have two Mummies? Of course they'll notice. They won't find anything wrong with it until adults tell them to hush about it. They'll wonder why they never heard of that before... Oh, it's obviously bad! [disgust]
percy toboggan
03-Apr-08, 19:37
.... however I also think that promotion of heterosexuality is wrong.
THe day heterosexuality has to be 'promoted'...is the day the human race is as good as dead and buried.
I think I know what you are driving at....do you mean childrens education should not be sexualised in any way, shape or form?
If so, I agree..nature takes it's inevitable course soon enough....okay. okay...not quite inevitable in terms of choices.
Now I personally am done with this topic for the moment. To dwell upon it serves little purpose. Views are instinctive...aside from the pseudo-enlightened amongst us....the rest are entrenched and irreconcilable. T'was ever thus,.
helenwyler
03-Apr-08, 20:00
There really are gay penguins. Roy and Silo really exist, and the first link is about them. They live in Central Park Zoo.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/02/07/MNG3N4RAV41.DTL
I haven't read the story but if it is 'promoting' anything at all, it would seem to be loyalty and love. I cannot see how this story is promoting homosexuality any more than Jack and the Beanstalk is promoting lying to your mother.
I don't see it as promotion of homosexuality. That would be wrong, however I also think that promotion of heterosexuality is wrong. Nothing should be promoted as such. A basic awareness is surely a part of a rounded education? It has been stated on this thread that the children may never come into contact with this, so they don't need to know about it. Well stop teaching them about polar bears then!! These are just story books. The one about the penguins is not about homsexuality, it's about two penguins who formed a strong attachment to each other and happened to both be male!
Gay penguins? Get a grip!
They cuddle and share a nest like the other penguin couples, and when all the others start hatching eggs, they want to be parents, too. Determined and hopeful, they bring an egg-shaped rock back to their nest and proceed to start caring for it. They have little luck, until a watchful zookeeper decides they deserve a chance at having their own family and gives them an egg in need of nurturing. The dedicated and enthusiastic fathers do a great job of hatching their funny and adorable daughter, and the three can still be seen at the zoo todayHomosexual penguins indeed
Personally, I think that a passing mention in a story is probably the ideal way to make children aware that other families can be different. They probably won't even notice it and as it will filter into their subconscious, then it will (hopefully) help them when they do notice a same sex couple. Kids that age don't see differences in each other, why foister adult predudices on them?
You can't make a person grow up to be gay by reading them the wrong stories. Making a fuss about these books (and other things) WILL be noticed on some level by children, this will teach them that same sex couples are wrong (otherwise why all the fuss?) is that what people want? Not having them won't be noticed by children on any awareness level.
I mean if you're that set against it, then don't worry, bigotry is best taught at home anyway. A childhood spent hearing anti-gay comments will teach them all they ever need to know and then when they hit puberty and realise that they're not actually attracted to the opposite sex.... well, we're back to unhappy marriages for the sake of appearances. Live and let live. If you've nothing against children hearing a Mummy and Daddy story and you're not homophobic, then why would you have a problem with a Daddy and Daddy story? Precisely, predudice is a learned trait and adults are the best teachers.
Same sex couples really are not that rare these days, I know several. I don't actually know any male couples with children, the reason for that is usually that with attitudes being what they are, they wouldn't wish it on a child.Attitudes that children don't have so what's the need to burden their minds with it? Let them be children first.
I do know a few lesbian couples with children, do you think the other children in their class won't notice that they have two Mummies? Of course they'll notice. They won't find anything wrong with it until adults tell them to hush about it. They'll wonder why they never heard of that before... Oh, it's obviously bad! [disgust]Again you are just confirming what I have already said, the children won't care about it untill it is drilled into their minds by literature that has no place in a 5 year olds library.
Thanks for the synopses Squidge..the first book seems to promote the belief that you can have whatever you want to have , even if it flies in the face of nature. .
Actually Percy - isnt it natural for male penguins to want to have a chick? Its the male penguins that look after the babies. Apparently the female pengion lays one egg then goes off and leaves the male penguin to it - seems entirely natural .
For a start the term same sex suggests sex... where as same gender would suggest same gender. The sex thing is paranoid adult homophobia...
Get it right!
Penguins are evil. And as for same-sex penguins, kill them all !
brokencross
04-Apr-08, 08:59
If you can forget the rights or wrongs of same sex marriages, promotion of homosexuality argument just for a moment, and talk generalities and the complexity of a child growing up.
Most children of around 5 years old are innocent and tend to take things at face value; they are not prone to analysing any situation too deeply; they have a steep enough learning curve ahead of them without worrying about the domestic arrangements of other families at such a tender age.
If I can remember back to my own childhood the best description is that I just coasted along without a care in the world (except maybe next days spelling test) and as each challenge presented itself I tackled it, in my own little way. Admittedly there were not the same social pressures then.
Getting back to topic - I can't imagine a 5 year old giving two hoots about the parental arrangements of their friends; they may notice there is a difference but are not judgmental in any way.
They may notice that both John's mum and dad take him to school; they may notice that it is Janes dad that takes her to school; they may notice that Brians Mam is a lot older than their mam; they may notice that Jemma has two mams or that Henry hasn't got a dad; they may notice that Harry's dad is really old and bald but his mam is very young. In fact, if the truth be known, they probably don't even notice at all.
If the books are read purely as childrens fiction the proposed "message" will be lost (unless they are relying on a subliminal element). If the books are read and then discussed in comprehension style I am afraid it will do more damage than good. It will lead to questions/answers that their young minds cannot comprehend and this uncertainty can only be unsettling and possibly lead to prejudice and non-acceptance.
So what I am saying is, if there is not a problem why flag it up? If you flag up any difference, you are highlighting that difference, you are putting that difference under the spotlight, you are putting that difference under unneccessary scrutiny, you are opening up that difference to discrimination.
SO, if it ain't broke why on earth try and fix it.
Most small children don't really understand about marriage - I've heard all kinds of odd relationships proposed like wanting to marry friends (gender irrelevant), relations, favourite story characters. Let them stay innocent for a few years and sensible parents will see when they're old enough to know that "different" relationships are not necessarily wrong.
The saddest thing is children who gradually realise a heterosexual relationship is not for them but are unable to tell their family. Can you imagine how hard it must be for children who have heard their parents refer to homosexual relationships with disgust and fear that reaction turned on themselves? That's why tolerance and acceptance are so important.
percy toboggan
04-Apr-08, 18:35
For a start the term same sex suggests sex... where as same gender would suggest same gender. The sex thing is paranoid adult homophobia...
Get it right!
'homophobia' my backside.
It's a one word cliche..trotted out by
the hard of thinking is 'homophobia'
Those who are so vehemently opposed to homosexuality they develop a 'phobia' should see a shrink.
They are few and far between.
Most folk just wish homo's would stop promoting it...and drawing attention to it and just get on with it...quietly, and discreetly....in private places.
I totally agree with you, brokencross. My father was literally old enough to be my grandfather, when I was five he was in his early fifties.
None of the children I either went to school with or played with ever noticed the age difference between their fathers and mine, he was just a daddy of one of their friends.
As far as I can see, the kind of thing which is happening in Bristol is that there is a modern solution desperately searching to find it's problem. For them to make a claim that they are introducing such matters to five-year-olds because they have to make reports concerning any bullying to the Government, I think it was from April, is about as pathetic an excuse I have ever come across and I have heard some poor excuses in my time.
Five-year-olds tend not to hide their emotions to an extent where a teacher would fail completely to notice when it comes to bullying.
Where there is even a hint of bullying, for whatever reason, then that is the time to deal with it and, if the cause requires it, the details of whatever is causing the bullying should be addressed at that point.
If the method being used in Bristol is considered to be absolutely necessary to prevent bullying then using it will leve little time for any other things being taught.
There are many thousands of reasons used by children as an excuse for bullying so perhaps there should be a book covering each individual possibility just to be on the safe side.
Oh, and I was brought up by two women for part of my childhood, and none of my young friends thought there was anything unusual about that either.
I wonder if that means they all had deeply seated psychological problems which should have been addressed at a early age? I never realised how much damage my family circumstances may have caused them, I think I might have to develop a severe "Guilt Complex" to compensate for my lack of consideration for them.
Wow, that's great! I can now be devastated and live in suitable torment for the rest of my life just to keep the Modern Progressive Thinkers happy.
As if! :roll:
I think at 5 years old thats a little too young to learn about homosexuality.
Slightly off thread but if some schools can educate kids about same sex relationships then why not single parent families?
I say this because some schools/pre-schools etc dont make fathers day cards as they dont want to upset single parents!(they still make mothers day!) Why?
There is nothing wrong with being a single parent, have they ever asked single parents how they feel about this? very much doubt it. But to keep same sex couples and the PC brigade happy they can teach about homosexuality.
If your going to do that then why not single parents get a fairer deal?.
I am all for equality but it seems some are more equal than others :)
I
So what I am saying is, if there is not a problem why flag it up?
i think the complete opposite is true, if there is not problem.. why hide it. As you say, kids at that age are more acceptable to things than adults, but if situations are hushed up or swept under the carpet, then they are going to start to wonder why.
I say this because some schools/pre-schools etc dont make fathers day cards as they dont want to upset single parents!(they still make mothers day!) Why?
down here, the kids make cards for any of these, but it is then up to them who they give them too... my son has made cards for his granny instead of me and his dad on more than one occasion...
its time we got rid of the stigma attached to same sex relationships/single parent families/big age gaps etc etc
think about it this way, it wasnt THAT long ago that mixed race relationships where though of as "not normal" and frowned upon. how appaled would you be if this was stilll the case today?
Ninah Cherry said it wall with her song "7 seconds".. kids are not born with predujices, they are taught them by their families and the society they live in... mainly through old fashioned values that should not be relevant in todays world.
Ninah Cherry said it wall with her song "7 seconds".. kids are not born with predujices, they are taught them by their families and the society they live in... mainly through old fashioned values that should not be relevant in todays world.Kids are not born with predudices, adults provide those, so why do we need to make them aware when they are doing a damn good job of showing us how to get along without them?
percy toboggan
05-Apr-08, 15:09
think about it this way, it wasnt THAT long ago that mixed race relationships where though of as "not normal" and frowned upon. how appaled would you be if this was stilll the case today?
Ninah Cherry said it wall with her song "7 seconds".. kids are not born with predujices, they are taught them by their families and the society they live in... mainly through old fashioned values that should not be relevant in todays world.
Nothing wrong with old fashioned values...nothing at all.
The lack of them is leading us down a path of moral turpitude.
Neneh Cherry (a ten bob artiste in my opinion) was right, kids are not born with prejudices...how can they be....only when the brain develops do prejudices enter it...and not always due to nurture...sometimes 'instinct' kicks in. 'Birds of a feather flock together' almost sums one of these instincts ...like most old adages it has a ring of truth about it.
Attempts, like yours to sanitise peoples thinking in order to make it acceptable to yourself in your own enlightened nirvana really irk me...keep your preaching to yourself and leave others to formulate their own opinions.
Percy i agree with you on one thing... i dont particularly like Neneh Cherry either.. but that song i did like.. although thats irrelevant.
but its not ME that is trying to sanatise peoples thinking.. its the opposite.. im saying we have to be open the fact there are different lifestyles around us on a daily basis... and educating our children is key in making us more understanding and acceptable.
And i certainly dont live in in my "own enlightened nirvana" but
i just dont think that living in the dark ages and pic and choose what predujices are still acceptable...
children dont have an "instinct" to hate anyone, they pick this up from what what they are taught, or by not accepting anything other than what they have been taught is "normal"
by NOT discussing homosexuality, children will develop prejucdices just the same as if they are taught that is is "wrong"
i may very well "irk" you, but its not me that preaching, your the one thats doing that by trying to pick and chose what is and isnt acceptable for our children to be taught....
percy toboggan
05-Apr-08, 15:59
by NOT discussing homosexuality, children will develop prejucdices just the same as if they are taught that is is "wrong"
i may very well "irk" you, but its not me that preaching, your the one thats doing that by trying to pick and chose what is and isnt acceptable for our children to be taught....
Just how can one develop a prejudice by not talking about it? Unless it's a natural consequence of inner reasoning? As for teaching...If the subject is largely irrelevant there is plenty of time to take it on board...no need to dwell upon it inside immature minds.
I have no right not to be 'irked' and anyway...an irk is the milder form of irritation....you certainly do not astound, or infuriate me (not yet)
As for your final proposition it is surely for parents to decide what their children need to be taught at tender ages...to return to the first post...these muslims have decided and have imposed their views as a collective upon the school. An example to the indigenous community..the leaders of whom bend over backwards to accommodate muslim opinion and sensitivities.Maybe we should tell schools that instruction in minority religions should be curtailed to a bare minimum.
brokencross
06-Apr-08, 09:34
i may very well "irk" you, but its not me that preaching, your the one thats doing that by trying to pick and chose what is and isnt acceptable for our children to be taught....
Young children are taught to count; when they have mastered that, they are taught how to add, subtract etc. and not just how to do it, but why it works. They are not given trigonometry or Calculus straight away, that would be pure stupidity, the children would not understand and probably hate maths forever.
It is a natural learning progression which applies in all subjects; the complexity and depth of study within a subject increases as the child's brain grows and they are able to grasp more and more aspects of the subject.
That principle applies in life skills even more so. At least in Maths if you don't understand something, the teacher can go over it again and again until "Eureka" you have got it.
In life you only have ONE chance with the innocence of a child; so introducing them to topics which are way beyond their years (such as homosexuality and same sex marriages) will risk taking away that childhood innocence, that most of us cherish, forever. Why take that unnecessary risk?
i think the complete opposite is true, if there is not problem.. why hide it. As you say, kids at that age are more acceptable to things than adults, but if situations are hushed up or swept under the carpet, then they are going to start to wonder why.
Nobody is suggesting situations are hushed up or swept under the carpet.
I think what is being said is that, any information we introduce to our children to has to be totally "age appropriate". When children are more able to listen to the pros and cons of a subject, rationalise this information, ask pertinent questions and then make that final "informed choice" such topics can be introduced. This applys to all topics, not just the matters in this thread.
Putting aside homosexuality and same sex marriages for the moment but considering the general ills and malaise of society in general, I tend to agree with percy toboggan regarding "OLD FASHIONED VALUES". Forget the words "old fashioned" concentrate on the word VALUES. That is what is lacking today...decent values.
Boozeburglar
06-Apr-08, 11:52
How soon before they start to turn up in their hundreds to oust gay teachers?
How soon before they start to turn up in their hundreds to oust gay teachers?Why would that happen Booze? As long as they are not outing gay teachers then what's the problem.
Boozeburglar
06-Apr-08, 12:04
Why would that happen?
More like when will it happen.
Why would that happen?
More like when will it happen.So you reckon that people are going to start complaining if their kids are taught by a homosexual?
Boozeburglar
06-Apr-08, 12:18
If the angry mob rules, there will be no stopping it. Gay teachers are already subject to harassment and trumped up complaints.
If the angry mob rules, there will be no stopping it. Gay teachers are already subject to harassment and trumped up complaints.I agree with what you are saying. Homosexuality is in no way connected to paedophilia but the mob moronic mentality would not see the difference.
percy toboggan
06-Apr-08, 14:00
If the angry mob rules, there will be no stopping it. Gay teachers are already subject to harassment and trumped up complaints.
So, interestedly , one wonders how inclusivists like yourself reconcile the toleration of mushrooming intolerant religions in an intrinsically free society which was becoming post-religious ? Can the two things be reconciled...does the latter genie of homo-sexual tolerance have to be put back into the bottle...is it worth fighting for?
Will a society forced to endure unfettered immigration and ultra-tolerance of foreign culture and beliefs ultimately change so much as to bring about the end of the 'anything goes' culture' so beloved of it's chief architects ?:rolleyes::confused:
Boozeburglar
06-Apr-08, 14:12
So, interestedly , one wonders how inclusivists like yourself reconcile the toleration of mushrooming intolerant religions in an intrinsically free society which was becoming post-religious ? Can the two things be reconciled...does the latter genie of homo-sexual tolerance have to be put back into the bottle...is it worth fighting for?
Will a society forced to endure unfettered immigration and ultra-tolerance of foreign culture and beliefs ultimately change so much as to bring about the end of the 'anything goes' culture' so beloved of it's chief architects ?
I don't include any intolerant faction, regardless of their background.
I don't agree we have unfettered immigration.
I don't see evidence we have ultra tolerance of anything.
I don't see any belief as 'foreign'.
One minute everyone is harping on about this government taking away everyone's individual freedoms, the next they are calling it for being 'anything goes'.
Get a grip people.
:)
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