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percy toboggan
27-Mar-08, 20:48
..the news is familiar yet surely still merits a mention...the current trend for drunken youths to jump on peoples heads is really catching on.

This time an innocent girl who dared to be different battered whilst trying to protect her boyfriend who was being kicked senseless.

Bacup is an anonymous Lancashire mill town...the mills are not milling much these days of course but just what is the town turning out?

These senseless acts are now becoming regular, if not quite commonplace in our southern* towns and cities. The notion of increasing violence is gaining momentum and folk are becoming fearful.

In the same area young white girls are being groomed as teenage prostitutes (Panorama 10.35 tonight) different aspects of the same problem...a dis-connect of a section of youth and society as it appears to most of us.

The almost daily diet of bad news, which threatens to overwhelm the worried observer is depressing indeed, even for those who possess a healthy, detached cynicism.

*from a Caithness perspective

MadPict
27-Mar-08, 20:51
The UK is going down the drain....

silverfox57
27-Mar-08, 20:57
just have to read court cases in our groat every week to see caithness is going down the drain too.

Green_not_greed
27-Mar-08, 21:00
The UK is going down the drain....

I completely agree. I think it has a LOT to do with New Labour's namby-pamby, politically-correct approach to everything. Over the past 11 years its almost replaced the traditional British values - especially those of respect and self-discipline - with complete anarchy, despair and don't care attitude.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating any "strict army" regime on our younger bretheren, but I would like to see a return of respect for property, people and personal values.

Boozeburglar
27-Mar-08, 21:00
A kitten was saved from a tree other week, all is not lost.

percy toboggan
27-Mar-08, 21:03
just have to read court cases in our groat every week to see caithness is going down the drain too.
Is it really? How depressing.
I think I might turn my attention to France for my reitrement needs....I am beginning to think the UK really is on a long downward slope that will see me, and possibly even my children out before any upswing.....

Sapphire2803
27-Mar-08, 21:11
just have to read court cases in our groat every week to see caithness is going down the drain too.

Try living in Portsmouth for a year and reading their court round up. I read the Groat every week and breathe a sigh of relief at how tame things are round here.

silverfox57
27-Mar-08, 21:16
Is it really? How depressing.
I think I might turn my attention to France for my reitrement needs....I am beginning to think the UK really is on a long downward slope that will see me, and possibly even my children out before any upswing.....
it is very depressing for the elderly when the are to scared to go out after dark,for fear of being attacked by yobs.:confused

Whitewater
27-Mar-08, 21:20
Have to agree with "green not greed2 on this. We are now giving in to all sorts of dangerous and nutty pressure groups in our efforts to be politically correct. In doing so many of our politicians have lost sight of our own values and what made Britain Great. I feel that if our imigrants don't like the place, no matter their creed or colour, they should clear off to where their politics and views will be accepted rather than try to change ours. Australia has been running a successful imigration policy for years, and if their imigrants don't like it they get short shrift.

Boozeburglar
27-Mar-08, 21:24
What on earth has the murder of this girl by British teens got to do with the issue of immigration?

How is this the result of immigration?

percy toboggan
27-Mar-08, 21:30
Have to agree with "green not greed2 on this. We are now giving in to all sorts of dangerous and nutty pressure groups in our efforts to be politically correct. In doing so many of our politicians have lost sight of our own values and what made Britain Great. I feel that if our imigrants don't like the place, no matter their creed or colour, they should clear off to where their politics and views will be accepted rather than try to change ours. Australia has been running a successful imigratation policy for years, and if their imigrants don't like it they get short shrift.

Whitewater whilst I too am very conscious about the downsides of a decade of mass, unfettered immigration, and see a definite link with rising crime so many of the recent high profile murders have been committed by white indigenous people. These and their ilk I would gladly trade....transporting them to any hot and arid hell hole if only we could import people of calibre, who want to be educated and want to thrive by their own efforts.I am growing very wary of a large sub section of aimless, drunken youth who glory in being aggressive and outside of the parameters of civilised behaviour.....per capita I am persuaded the problem is greatest amongst the white sub working classes. They show no allegiance to any British values I recognise and dread to think of my grandchild attending a school alongside their offsping.

Green_not_greed
27-Mar-08, 21:35
Have to agree with "green not greed2 on this. We are now giving in to all sorts of dangerous and nutty pressure groups in our efforts to be politically correct. In doing so many of our politicians have lost sight of our own values and what made Britain Great. I feel that if our imigrants don't like the place, no matter their creed or colour, they should clear off to where their politics and views will be accepted rather than try to change ours. Australia has been running a successful imigration policy for years, and if their imigrants don't like it they get short shrift.

My posting had nothing to do with immigrants, It was to do with loss of values. Many family immigrant groups still retain family values and respect we seem to have lost!

GNG

northener
27-Mar-08, 21:37
Whitewater whilst I too am very conscious about the downsides of a decade of mass, unfettered immigration, and see a definite link with rising crime so many of the recent high profile murders have been committed by white indigenous people. These and their ilk I would gladly trade....transporting them to any hot and arid hell hole if only we could import people of calibre, who want to be educated and want to thrive by their own efforts.I am growing very wary of a large sub section of aimless, drunken youth who glory in being aggressive and outside of the parameters of civilised behaviour.....per capita I am persuaded the problem is greatest amongst the white sub working classes. They show no allegiance to any British values I recognise and dread to think of my grandchild attending a school alongside their offsping.

Well put, Mr T.

Whitewater
27-Mar-08, 21:42
What on earth has the murder of this girl by British teens got to do with the issue of immigration?

How is this the result of immigration?


Nobody said that the murder was the result of imigration. The reference was made to the government being too PC, because of this they have become too soft, jail sentences are too lenient, and many youngsters have lost all sense of value and respect. All these things have changed because our government tries not too offend anybody, the result being, nobody has any sense of respect for anything, they can kick somebody to death and have a good chance of getting away with it, if punished they will be out again in 2 or 3 years if they promise the good social workers they will be behave when they get out.

unicorn
27-Mar-08, 22:06
I find it disgraceful that any of these animals are protected from being named, that always makes me mad. If they are big enough to take a life they should live with the consequences.
Here is another horrendous story I just stumbled across http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1310880,00.html

JAWS
28-Mar-08, 05:28
For those who think that modern youth is any worse than youth in the past here is something to think about.

A ban on the Rolling Stones playing in a seaside resort has been lifted — after 44 years. The former hellraisers, fronted by Mick Jagger, were barred from performing in Blackpool after a 1964 ballroom concert ended in a riot.
Fifty people were taken to hospital after rowdy fans tore up seats, smashed chandeliers and threw bottles.

That was taken from one of yesterday's papers. For Blackpool to take such action the behaviour must have been extreme because it has never been what you might call a shy retiring place. It has always been brash and rowdy and the odd large fight or two each week were not uncommon.
The Mods and Rockers of that era were just as badly behaved as today’s young and attacks on those who were "one of the others" were just as common and violent then as now, and killings were certainly not unknown.

That is not to excuse the behaviour of those who committed the murder but to pretend it is due to any single, or even a few, particular changes in the make up of Society is to bury one's head in the sand.

I agree that sentences for such things are far too lenient in almost all cases.
As for not naming those involved in such matters because of their age, that is something which definitely needs looking into.
I can accept that youngsters who simply make an error of judgement and as a result end up in Court should not be named but there are limits.
Those who constantly commit criminal offences should eventually be named and I certainly cannot think of any reason why those who go so far as to commit serious criminal offences, and obviously murder, serious assaults and gang attacks, should definitely be named.

It can only be in very rare and exceptional cases that anybody who has reached secondary school age does not understand what the outcome of extremely violent assaults are likely to be. In those cases where that is not the case then the youngster would be unlikely to stand trial in the first place because it would have been decided that they were in no fit mental state to enter a plea or to understand what the trial was about.

rob murray
28-Mar-08, 09:38
Whitewater whilst I too am very conscious about the downsides of a decade of mass, unfettered immigration, and see a definite link with rising crime so many of the recent high profile murders have been committed by white indigenous people. These and their ilk I would gladly trade....transporting them to any hot and arid hell hole if only we could import people of calibre, who want to be educated and want to thrive by their own efforts.I am growing very wary of a large sub section of aimless, drunken youth who glory in being aggressive and outside of the parameters of civilised behaviour.....per capita I am persuaded the problem is greatest amongst the white sub working classes. They show no allegiance to any British values I recognise and dread to think of my grandchild attending a school alongside their offsping.

Statistics just released show that white working class youth attain the lowest eductional achievements when compared to other ethnic groups and hence fence in poor economic aspirations. Ethnic groups in poverty conditions and without traditional family structures achieve more. There has been a growing rise in literature and research which highlights massive problems in this population grouping. Why exactly is there such a culture of under achievement./ casual violence / aggresive behaviour..could it be that many feel that there is nothing to work towards....no future...forgotten marginalised estates ! Analysis of Glasgow gang culture ( and other places )suggests that boys are in gangs for identity purposes..ie gives them a sense of purpose..defend territories from invaders...fight...with weapons...gain prestige and standing ( on their minds the only way to do so ) etc throw in drink and stand back.

There is a massive problem right under our noses here and its is not going to go away..immigration..lets get real...harder / longer jail sentences...build more prisons..in the US 10% of afro american males are in jail...do we go down this road or try and tackle the problem properly....and yes 11 years of interference has heightened the problem..discipline starts at home and in school...how about starting there and maybe in a generation we might see a change...doubt it though...

rob murray
28-Mar-08, 10:20
Just to add, what happened to the Goth Girl was evil and despicable, these guys knew what they were doing and should be in jail for life..meaning life.

cd1977
28-Mar-08, 10:30
"it is very depressing for the elderly when the are to scared to go out after dark,for fear of being attacked by yobs.:confused"

In all my time living in Caithness, and elsewhere, I have yet to see yobs attacking the elderly.

This place should be renamed Hysteria.com

psyberyeti
28-Mar-08, 13:26
I am going to controversial and recommend bringing back the death penalty. I would certainly vote for anyone who would bring that back into force.:cool:

Tighsonas4
28-Mar-08, 14:00
Try living in Portsmouth for a year and reading their court round up. I read the Groat every week and breathe a sigh of relief at how tame things are round here.
dont think portsmouth can be compared to wick as its a village in comparison
as for the groat its whats not in it that the problem lies when delivery vans have to alter their rounds during night time both in wick and thurso as they were being chased by hooded thugs with crowbars it matters little where you are £2000 pounds worth of damage done to cars in one night and that sort of thing is habitual regards tony

badger
28-Mar-08, 14:04
Reading the accounts of crime in our local papers, nearly all of them seem to be drink related. No doubt that applies to the rest of the country. Why do we have such a tolerant attitude to children/teenagers and drink? Do their parents not notice teenagers coming home drunk night after night or do they not care or are they powerless?

rob murray
28-Mar-08, 14:15
"it is very depressing for the elderly when the are to scared to go out after dark,for fear of being attacked by yobs.:confused"

In all my time living in Caithness, and elsewhere, I have yet to see yobs attacking the elderly.

This place should be renamed Hysteria.com

You are wrong friend, some issues that I can confirm

1 My father (74 at the time ) punched in the face in a pub ( ok the assailant was dealt with..not by the police !! )
2 Anna Stewart ( 82 ) badly battered and mugged in Tolbooth Lane
3 The man ( cant remember his name ) who collapsed and died after chasing people throwing things at his window

These situations occur, ok not as many as more densely populated areas..but they do occur

Boozeburglar
28-Mar-08, 15:02
I am going to controversial and recommend bringing back the death penalty. I would certainly vote for anyone who would bring that back into force.:cool:

Hardly controversial.

BNP for you then.

:)

Boozeburglar
28-Mar-08, 15:07
There is a massive problem right under our noses here and its is not going to go away..immigration..lets get real...harder / longer jail sentences...build more prisons..in the US 10% of afro american males are in jail...do we go down this road or try and tackle the problem properly....

Can you clarify your use of 'immigration' here; I am struggling to understand.

Is this the 'massive problem' you are referring to?

rob murray
28-Mar-08, 15:29
Can you clarify your use of 'immigration' here; I am struggling to understand.

Is this the 'massive problem' you are referring to?

For the avoidance of doubt, I am not using immigration, I was responding to a previous posting ( by Percy Toboggan ) which raised this issue, this was on page 1 of a 2 page thread.."massive problem"...I thought I made the point clearly but to repeat...cases of aggressive / violient / crimal behaviour largely associated with an under achieving marginalised inner city " particular" population"..The posting in its entirlety is below..hope this clarifies your "issue"

Quote:
Originally Posted by percy toboggan http://forum.caithness.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?p=365493#post365493)
Whitewater whilst I too am very conscious about the downsides of a decade of mass, unfettered immigration, and see a definite link with rising crime so many of the recent high profile murders have been committed by white indigenous people. These and their ilk I would gladly trade....transporting them to any hot and arid hell hole if only we could import people of calibre, who want to be educated and want to thrive by their own efforts.I am growing very wary of a large sub section of aimless, drunken youth who glory in being aggressive and outside of the parameters of civilised behaviour.....per capita I am persuaded the problem is greatest amongst the white sub working classes. They show no allegiance to any British values I recognise and dread to think of my grandchild attending a school alongside their offsping.

Statistics just released show that white working class youth attain the lowest eductional achievements when compared to other ethnic groups and hence fence in poor economic aspirations. Ethnic groups in poverty conditions and without traditional family structures achieve more. There has been a growing rise in literature and research which highlights massive problems in this population grouping. Why exactly is there such a culture of under achievement./ casual violence / aggresive behaviour..could it be that many feel that there is nothing to work towards....no future...forgotten marginalised estates ! Analysis of Glasgow gang culture ( and other places )suggests that boys are in gangs for identity purposes..ie gives them a sense of purpose..defend territories from invaders...fight...with weapons...gain prestige and standing ( on their minds the only way to do so ) etc throw in drink and stand back.

There is a massive problem right under our noses here and its is not going to go away..immigration..lets get real...harder / longer jail sentences...build more prisons..in the US 10% of afro american males are in jail...do we go down this road or try and tackle the problem properly....and yes 11 years of interference has heightened the problem..discipline starts at home and in school...how about starting there and maybe in a generation we might see a change...doubt it though...

Boozeburglar
28-Mar-08, 15:41
There is a massive problem right under our noses here and its is not going to go away..immigration..lets get real...harder / longer jail sentences...build more prisons..in the US 10% of afro american males are in jail...do we go down this road or try and tackle the problem properly....and yes 11 years of interference has heightened the problem..discipline starts at home and in school...how about starting there and maybe in a generation we might see a change...doubt it though...

Sorry man, I am none the wiser.

What is the massive problem?

Are you saying it is not immigration?

It is unclear.

:)

rob murray
28-Mar-08, 16:07
Sorry man, I am none the wiser.

What is the massive problem?

Are you saying it is not immigration?

It is unclear.

:)

No its not..you choose to ignore the posting above its as clear as I can make it..what exactly is your point

cd1977
28-Mar-08, 16:33
Rob...

Whilst I have every sympathy with the cases you highlight these are, to say the least, the exceptions rather than the rule.

It is safe for elderly people to walk the streets in Caithness. That is my point. Reading silverfox57's post, you could be forgiven for thinking there were gangs of feral youths waiting outside Seaview nursing home with baseball bats and knuckledusters.

A bit of perspective is required.

rob murray
28-Mar-08, 16:34
Rob...

Whilst I have every sympathy with the cases you highlight these are, to say the least, the exceptions rather than the rule.

It is safe for elderly people to walk the streets in Caithness. That is my point. Reading silverfox57's post, you could be forgiven for thinking there were gangs of feral youths waiting outside Seaview nursing home with baseball bats and knuckledusters.

A bit of perspective is required.

Point taken thanks

percy toboggan
28-Mar-08, 18:24
The massive movement of people into a relatively compact country - such as happened here in recent years - was always going to cause problems of huge proportions.
Of course, the politicnas who masterminded...sanctioned and endorsed the process on purely economic grounds are not the ones who feel the biggest impact.

The impact - beyond the bottom line of businessmen happy to exploit cheaper, eager labour - is felt most in our poorest communities. The interface where the pace of change is just too fast. Where people cannot get local authority housing...or even rent privately..where our old feel like strangers in their own back yards.

Britain is a very tolerant country, most people subdue their anti-incomer feelings and are undemonstrative in any outgoing way. We are a comparatively reserved people...it is however entirely natural that immigrants as a whole, not necessarily individually are viewed with suspicion...which many can allay by integrating, working hard (ish) and contributing.

There is no doubt that inflationary pressures have been subdued because of the arrival of cheap labour. The minimum wage - perhaps New Labour's only real achievement - instead of being a safety net for low skilled folk has become an aspirational yardstick for the young , vibrant and mobile of Eastern Europe. Workers in many trades and industries...such as my own have seen wages pegged back. Prior to 2004 road haulage was facing a severe shortage of Class One Drivers...hourly rates began to climb...but with the influx of A8 countires to the EU we all now know how many Poles (and others) are driving British registered lorries. Some live in them at the weekend thus keeping down their costs...many others share a house with six or seven people, again distorting the demands on a weekly wage. I guestimate my own job might demand another pound or two per hour if there were no instant replacement available with an inferior licence, given after inferior training...a licence that can simply be exchanged for a British one after a qualifying period I understand...(welcome to la la land)

Good luck, in one sense to the near Easterners...the warehouse hands, the fork-lift drivers. the veg pickers and planters...I feel a majority will return home when the economic downturn starts to bite, or when the inevitable pangs of homesickness start to kick in...Britain is not a great place to live anymore , it's arguable that it ever was for those on the lower rungs of the socio-economic ladder. There are already signs of a reverse flow, the Polish buses, with weary drivers are not returning home empty anymore... The money is already flowing eastwards with many millions of pounds in wages helping to bring Eastern Europe out of the economic doldrums brought about by Soviet suffocation and warped socialism in action.

At least now we have a points system keeping out non EU migrants with low skills...still they will come of course, illegally...but in much smaller numbers.
The Government Gatekeepers have finally responded to public concern and are paying more than lip-service to the kind of fears expressed on this thread....(which has wandered somewhat - c'est la vie.)
It's about time...and long overdue....time will tell if it's too little too late.

Tighsonas4
28-Mar-08, 20:33
Rob...

Whilst I have every sympathy with the cases you highlight these are, to say the least, the exceptions rather than the rule.

It is safe for elderly people to walk the streets in Caithness. That is my point. Reading silverfox57's post, you could be forgiven for thinking there were gangs of feral youths waiting outside Seaview nursing home with baseball bats and knuckledusters.

A bit of perspective is required.
we are not commenting on seaview nursing home but take seaforth avenue kennedy terrace in wick or springpark and mount vernon in thurso where these events actually occured nothing racial or anything else but if you have to be on the outlook nightly theres nothing to be learnt here
fact is stronger than controversity tony

The Oracle
28-Mar-08, 21:44
I am going to controversial and recommend bringing back the death penalty. I would certainly vote for anyone who would bring that back into force.:cool:

The problem is that where individuals choose not to be responsible, decent human beings there are no ways of dealing with them appropriately.

You cannot give kids a good telling off these days without an angry parent or a band of yobs turning up at your door.

In my youth, neighbours would stand by each other and keep the neighbourhood in check. We quickly learned that pranks, etc would not be tolerated.

Today, mostly, that type of society does not exist. It's more 'don't get involved, nothing to do with us mentality' and selfish.

This I believe had much to do with the politics of Margaret Thatcher and the breaking of the communities which came with the destruction of the Unions.

If kids are not taught right from wrong at an early age, by their parents especially, then in some cases it's a recipe for trouble.

I also believe that some kids expect everything to be given to them on a plate.

For too long "do gooders" have argued successfully, for all sort of reasons, why individuals who commit serious crimes should get lighter sentences.

As a result very rarely these days do we see a punishment that fits the crime.

Whilst loss of liberty can be argued as a deterrent, clearly to some it isn't.

I read recently that an individual convicted of murder moved prisons and smashed up his cell because there were no power points for his TV and DVD Player!

Whilst it's not difficult to accept that the Death Penalty is the correct punishment for an individual who stabs someone 80 times, it cannot, nor should not, be used in all murder convictions.

However having come from a difficult background is no reason to only get 15 years for that crime.

If we do not get better deterrents then things will only get worse!

silverfox57
28-Mar-08, 22:59
Rob...

Whilst I have every sympathy with the cases you highlight these are, to say the least, the exceptions rather than the rule.

It is safe for elderly people to walk the streets in Caithness. That is my point. Reading silverfox57's post, you could be forgiven for thinking there were gangs of feral youths waiting outside Seaview nursing home with baseball bats and knuckledusters.

A bit of perspective is required.
having just back from Inverness tonight, seems my post has miss understood by regards to elderly people ,some who were brave to stand up to the yobs, paid with there life,sitting at a keyboard posting a bout yobs. and being attacked by them ,face to face is not the same, if it in wick or any city in uk [disgust]i do fell sorry for eldery people of today,but one exception for some one could be my eldery mother,and father.or yours,

Boozeburglar
28-Mar-08, 23:20
There is a massive problem right under our noses here and its is not going to go away..immigration..lets get real...harder / longer jail sentences...build more prisons..in the US 10% of afro american males are in jail...

My problem is that I cannot understand what you are saying here.

No matter how many times I read it, it is unclear.

I had no idea I am so thick.

:)

karia
28-Mar-08, 23:28
What on earth has the murder of this girl by British teens got to do with the issue of immigration?

How is this the result of immigration?

This was your post no 10 and I am still waiting for anyone to give adequate response linking this monsterous crime to immigration issues.:confused

36 and counting!

DeHaviLand
28-Mar-08, 23:32
My problem is that I cannot understand what you are saying here.

No matter how many times I read it, it is unclear.

I had no idea I am so thick.



As much as I hate to say this (:roll:), I agree with you BB. Not the last bit though:)

Boozeburglar
28-Mar-08, 23:35
Oh so you had an idea I was so thick!

Lol!

:)

percy toboggan
29-Mar-08, 08:32
This was your post no 10 and I am still waiting for anyone to give adequate response linking this monsterous crime to immigration issues.:confused

36 and counting!

Surely the 'adequate' response you seek is subjective and anyway should come from the person who made the point & linked the issues:mistakenly in my view. To expect 'anyone' to wade in and justify dodgy points of view is surely asking too much. As you're admittedly 'waiting for someone' to do so I wish you well.

Illuminating to know you're following these threads so carefully though...

Gross
29-Mar-08, 09:47
I am going to controversial and recommend bringing back the death penalty. I would certainly vote for anyone who would bring that back into force.:cool:

Oh Yes. America has the death penalty and there's no crime there. :roll:

And when people are hell bent on killing and maiming, do you actually think they are thinking about 'I might get caught?'. Really?

And as far as the glib comments about political correctness - which is about treating people with respect - how can treating your fellow humans with respect be the cause of crime?

I feel the main reasons for the increase in crime and fear of crime is

1. The Daily Mail's constant shrieking about how awful Britain is now, and why oh why can it not be like it was in the fifties. I hear lots of people moaning about crime, only to find out that they've never been affected and just read about it. The fear of crime is a powerful thing, and is totally abused by the tabloids.

The Daily Mail also hates young people, and as a young person, if you're told constantly that you are a danger and a disgrace, then you'll start to behave that way. The feral youth that the Mail loves to talk about - how many do you know? Cos you're kids / family aren't like that are they? Of course not. Because the media exaggerates to create fear, fear sells newspapers.

2. Alcohol. We live in a society that demonises and loves alcohol. Sophie Lancaster, the Goth who was killed, was killed by a 15 year old who had drunk "two litres of cider, peach schnapps and some lager". Where did he get it? Where were his parents?

3. Thatcher. It's the children of her generation that now appear to be out of control. Anything to do with the 'have it all, take it all' attitude she helped cultivate in the eighties?

But whatever you do, don't blame political correctness. You'll find that all those stories about black boards, BaaBaa Black Sheep etc. are all made up, by people alarmed at having to treat others with dignity and respect.

percy toboggan
29-Mar-08, 13:55
.... The Daily Mail's constant shrieking about how awful Britain is now, and why oh why can it not be like it was in the fifties....

Gross: one wonders why you read it so often then.
Personally I could have told the Mail myself that Britain is 'awful'...I don't need to read about it in a newspaper....it stares me in the face on news bulletins, on the odd night time trek around town & city centres, on clogged roads, in crowded hopsitals where my appointments are constantly cancelled...or the woeful state of public transport...the escalating costs of running a car...on our overpriced rail networks...and the lack of any visible Police force....the mushrooming levels of organised foreign criminals..need I go on?

Incidentally I can hardly remember the fifties but they were quite austere, rationing was still around and there were only two t.v. channels. It was much better in the sixties....for one brief week or so back in the summer of sixty-seven I thought everything here was going to be okay.:roll: