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percy toboggan
14-Mar-08, 19:37
I had to resort to the BBC i player to watch last Friday's BBC 2 programme on the 'Rivers of Blood' speech. I only caught the first twenty minutes and have 24 hours to catch the rest - no downloads were available - oddly.

I have my views, which I'll largely keep to myself. Enoch chose some poor terminology but whatever you think of the man he was a visionary, and time has proved his theories were not the ramblings of a demented, prejudiced mind....well, certainly not demented.

Ironically , his speech had a debillitating effect on the resistance of mass immigration. Outraged opinion within the higher strata of political society forever kept the man at arms length, whilst many of the working classes (then worthy of the name) in the shape of organised labour rallied behind him. Marginalised, but not alone, Powell became a bit part political player from then on.

Enoch was ill served by his facial expression. The piercing, staring eyes...the moustache...the military bearing..one wonders how history will see him in fifty years time.

(I'm off to watch the rest of it)

karia
14-Mar-08, 19:47
Enoch was ill served by his facial expression. The piercing, staring eyes...the moustache...the military bearing..one wonders how history will see him in fifty years time.
(I'm off to watch the rest of it)

They say that you get the face you deserve...proof positive in this case.

Not a fan of either the man or his nasty racist views.[disgust]

Dog-eared
14-Mar-08, 20:00
Aye, not just the fact that he was racist but the fact that he so obviously relished it , and incited others to be so.
Nothing like dedication , eh !!
The world , hopefully, moves on....

karia
14-Mar-08, 20:23
Aye, not just the fact that he was racist but the fact that he so obviously relished it , and incited others to be so.
Nothing like dedication , eh !!
The world , hopefully, moves on....

We can only hope so Dog-eared.....at least nowadays 'incitement to racial hatred' is an actual offence...not merely offensive.

Karia

percy toboggan
14-Mar-08, 22:10
Having watched all of this now I can say the man has been proved more or less correct in his predictions. Nothing new here, the Toxteth, Handsworth and Brixton riots confirmed it much, much earlier.

Have either of you watched this film?

The most astute comment came near then end when a contributor said 'the distinctions now are not black and white skin colour...they are between those who can live in a secular society, with common sense of purpose and common law....and those who for whatever social and historic reasons cannot.

Indeed times have moved on...but until these differences are resolved Britain can never ever be a cohesive society, even in the widest sense.

The prog left me with a deep sense of regret that Edward Heath won victory for the Tories in the 1970 General Election (against expectations).

If he had not, then the two greatest ills to beset my country in my lifetime - Margaret Thatcher, and mass immigration might never have happened.

The knee jerk reaction to Powell's infamous speech was an acceptance of multi-culturalism, which is now a busted flush. The acquiescence of mainstream politicans like Roy Hattersley (who in the film confirmed he's an out of touch buffoon) was shaming. Only Frank Field - a real world socialist Labour M.P. spoke the absolute truth, at leats as I , and millions like me see it.

If you are blessed with an attention span I suggest you look at this on www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer) search for Rivers of Blood - tomorrow evening it will be gone.

percy toboggan
14-Mar-08, 22:12
We can only hope so Dog-eared.....at least nowadays 'incitement to racial hatred' is an actual offence...not merely offensive.

Karia

Under the law you cite, it is highly unlikely that Powell would have been cautioned, or even charged after the speech he delivered in Wolverhampton.

davem
14-Mar-08, 22:18
The rivers of blood thing was done to death in another thread a while ago.
Glad to see that Percy thinks it could have been put better; however that man was one of the towering intellects of his generation. He knew exactly what he was saying and it's likely effect.
Since then thousands of booted skinheads in bomber jackets have justified themselves with "Enoch was right". If he saw tensions arising, as an intelligent and supposedly responsible man he should have sought solutions rather than fuel the flames and provide facists a platform from which to spread their poison.

He made himself a "bit player", he was too haughty to ever admit the damage he'd done. He made a mistake, made far worse by the fact that he had the wit and political nouse to see what would result.

TBH
14-Mar-08, 22:35
Whole areas, towns and parts of towns across England will be occupied by different sections of the immigrant and immigrant-descended population.True.

As time goes on, the proportion of this total who are immigrant descendants, those born in England, who arrived here by exactly the same route as the rest of us, will rapidly increase.True

It almost passes belief that at this moment twenty or thirty additional immigrant children are arriving from overseas in Wolverhampton alone every week - and that means fifteen or twenty additional families of a decade or two hence.True

I turn to re-emigration. If all immigration ended tomorrow, the rate of growth of the immigrant and immigrant-descended population would be substantially reduced, but the prospective size of this element in the population would still leave the basic character of the national danger unaffected. This can only be tackled while a considerable proportion of the total still comprises persons who entered this country during the last ten years or so. Hence the urgency of implementing now the second element of the Conservative Party's policy: the encouragement of re-emigration.True, now they are all bleating about their loss of national identity, let's swear allegiance to the queen to show our Britishness, dry your eyes folks.


The third element of the Conservative Party's policy is that all who are in this country as citizens should be equal before the law and that there shall be no discrimination or difference made between them by public authority. As Mr. Heath has put it, we will have no 'first-class citizens' and 'second-class citizens'. This does not mean that the immigrant and his descendants should be elevated into a privileged or special class or that the citizen should be denied his right to discriminate in the management of his own affairs between one fellow citizen and another or that he should be subjected to inquisition as to his reasons and motives for behaving in one lawful manner rather than another.Are they not building housing for the influx of immigrants now and exluding people that were born here.

karia
14-Mar-08, 22:54
Are these quotes from Mr Powell's speech?...you did not make the source clear TBH.
But I found this billet doux between you and Percy on my travels..unconnected?!

Surely not!


Indeed this is a subject for a thread of it's own but how do the moderators feel about a debate on this subect, is it taboo to have a discussion about the small but increasing radical element that is rearing it's ugly head in certain minorities of this country?

TBH
14-Mar-08, 23:01
Are these quotes from Mr Powell's speech?...you did not make the source clear TBH.
But I found this billet doux between you and Percy on my travels..unconnected?!

Surely not!Yes these are quotes from his speach and no you have not found any love letters. So percy starts a thread about Enoch Powell and that somehow connects to a previous post of mine.[lol] By the way, remember that some radicals that were born and raised in this country would love to kill you and eradicate everything that you stand for, does that not bother you and what is your solution, give them a pat on the head and tell them to run along?

karia
14-Mar-08, 23:02
Yes these are quotes from his speach and no you have not found any love letters. So percy starts a thread about Enoch Powell and that somehow connects to a previous post of mine.[lol]

Not at all..see the quote.

And what gives you any impression that you know what I stand for?

karia
14-Mar-08, 23:04
It's good that you have friends..a rarity in 'powell supporters.

kx[lol]

percy toboggan
14-Mar-08, 23:06
Are these quotes from Mr Powell's speech?...you did not make the source clear TBH.
But I found this billet doux between you and Percy on my travels..unconnected?!

Surely not!

I posted this thread without the consideration, or consultation of any other poster. I'm studying French at the moment but haven't got up to 'billet doux' it sounds gallic.....whatever can it mean? Maybe I can hazard a guess in my ignorance....

I don't form alliances with other posters - as you will no doubt have realised by now - and post solely from the top of my head on matters that interest me. The org. seems to be a place which will tolerate non febrile discussion of weighty issues. This is why I raised the subject on here...if it's good enough for the BBC, then surely it's good enough for 'the org'

TBH
14-Mar-08, 23:12
It's good that you have friends..a rarity in 'powell supporters.

kxHow can you say it is a rarity in Powell supporters when you didn't even know where the quotes came from.[lol]

percy toboggan
14-Mar-08, 23:14
It's good that you have friends..a rarity in 'powell supporters.

kx[lol]
billet doux: a 'love letter' (thanks google)
You've obviously been on the red wine again Karia.
So have I, but can handle it so much better.

You're out of touch with the feelings of those who populate street, rather than road....or avenue. I speak metaphorically of course..it's a handy reference to working class opinion. Anachronistic, like Powell but most people who can sink a bottle of wine and remain coherent will recognise the concept.

TBH
14-Mar-08, 23:20
Not at all..see the quote.

And what gives you any impression that you know what I stand for?
Absolute nonsense garnered from our American colonists who incidently are phasing out this silly routine of pledging allegiance to the flag of the united states. We have in our midst some very disenchanted, radicalised British citizens who would like nothing more than to kill every last one of us. That is the problem that should be addressed and no amount of pledging will alter their hatred for the country that has given them a better quality of life.I posted this


So. What do we do about them then?
Any ideas for a different thread?Percy posted that


Indeed this is a subject for a thread of it's own but how do the moderators feel about a debate on this subect, is it taboo to have a discussion about the small but increasing radical element that is rearing it's ugly head in certain minorities of this country?I replied with this, keep up Karia, engage your brain sometimes before posting, it does help.[lol] Nice editing Karia but what exactly do you stand for?

karia
14-Mar-08, 23:29
billet doux: a 'love letter' (thanks google)
You've obviously been on the red wine again Karia.
So have I, but can handle it so much better.

You're out of touch with the feelings of those who populate street, rather than road....or avenue. I speak metaphorically of course..it's a handy reference to working class opinion. Anachronistic, like Powell but most people who can sink a bottle of wine and remain coherent will recognise the concept.

Ha...nice try Percy but I don't drink of a week...and I live in a street where 75% of the residents are over 65.

Sad that you have to defend yourself thus....protesting too much methinks.:D.

'and i'll walk down the avenue..til I'm there'..cannae beat e musicals.!:lol:

karia
14-Mar-08, 23:42
I posted this

Percy posted that

I replied with this, keep up Karia, engage your brain sometimes before posting, it does help. Nice editing Karia but what exactly do you stand for?


Keep up?...engage my brain?:confused

When the insults start a flying...those who pitch them have no decent arguments left.

Everyone here knows exactly what I stand for...

....yourself?:D

TBH
14-Mar-08, 23:49
Keep up?...engage my brain?:confused

When the insults start a flying...those who pitch them have no decent arguments left.

Everyone here knows exactly what I stand for...

....your elf?I could have sworn you started it with some paranoid accusation?[lol] Les fleuves du sang sont deja ici, what are your suggestions as to how to deal with it? Btw, Leave My elf alone. Grrrrr.

percy toboggan
14-Mar-08, 23:51
Ha...nice try Percy but I don't drink of a week...and I live in a street where 75% of the residents are over 65.

Sad that you have to defend yourself thus....protesting too much methinks.:D.

'and i'll walk down the avenue..til I'm there'..cannae beat e musicals.!:lol:

For a 'University Lecturer' your arguments are often pedestrian.
This response is particularly poor.
I can't say I'm surprised.

percy toboggan
14-Mar-08, 23:58
As a footnote to this thread......in the days following Powell's speech he received 100,000 letters. These were in times long , long before e.mail. When putting pen to paper required effort, a postage stamp and a walk to the post-box. Not a knee jerk wine fuelled click of a mouse.

One per cent of those letters were critical...the rest were supportive.

83% of adults in Slough signed a petition in his support....anyone who knows anything about outer London will know where Slough is now. Still in outer London, geographically at least.

karia
15-Mar-08, 00:03
For a 'University Lecturer' your arguments are often pedestrian.
This response is particularly poor.
I can't say I'm surprised.


Dazzled by yer response![lol] As ever!

So amazed by yer wit and alacrity am I that I will forstall my laughter
lest I get mistaken for the laughing police woman.:D

karia
15-Mar-08, 00:08
I could have sworn you started it with some paranoid accusation?[lol] Les fleuves du sang sont deja ici, what are your suggestions as to how to deal with it? Btw, Leave My elf alone. Grrrrr.


You re so right..the rose of blood is here already..my elf says so!;)

Coggy
15-Mar-08, 00:21
Powell was never a racist, if racism is defined by a dislike of black or Asian people. He had Indian and Pakistani friends, his fear was that an influx of immigrants that could not or would not assimilate with British society would lead to violence. So his crude prophesy (crude only to people that are not Latin scholars) has come true.
In Birmingham, where I current live, there has been outbreaks of violence, 1981, 1984, 1985 between West Indians and the police. The latest and worst was between West Indians and Asians, in the media this was over a false rape accusation but in reality was a drugs war, in that the more enterprising Asians had taken over the drug trade from the West Indian gangs, and there is a certain amount of anti-Christian feeling from the Muslims against the West Indians. There has been a number of attacks on Christian Fundamentalist and Methodist Churches by Muslims in the past couple of years, and women have been attacked for not wearing headscarves.

JAWS
15-Mar-08, 00:23
Since then thousands of booted skinheads in bomber jackets have justified themselves with "Enoch was right". If he saw tensions arising, as an intelligent and supposedly responsible man he should have sought solutions rather than fuel the flames and provide facists a platform from which to spread their poison.And thousands of left wing yahoos have used the same speech to silence, often by strong arm bully-boy tactics, anybody who disagrees even slightly with their aims of creating a Multi-Cultural Wonderland.

The usual knee-jerk abuse of Fascist and/or Racist is automatically hurled as a method of ensuring such silence. Such tactics are no different to those used by those who the abusers wish to compare even the mildest commentator to.
Wha\t it boils down to is one set of people acting with thuggish behaviour being abused by a different set of people acting with thuggish behaviour and more often than not their faces are so twisted with hate you cannot tell them apart.

Even a Bishop of Asian origins has been ridiculed, abused and threatened for pointing out that certain areas have, in effect, become single race ghettos for whatever reason. He certainly didn't use inflammatory racist language but still received the same hysterical abuse from certain quarters for Thought Crime against the Orthodoxy.

Just as a matter of interest, how many of those who decry Powell's speech have actually read it with an open mind and how many are just accepting the version presented by others?

Once you have read the speech and checked what Powell suggested should be done to prevent problems take a look at what has been suggested by the current Government during the last ten years. But then again, I suppose they could all be Racist and Fascist rabble rousers also.

Oh, and the much used “Rivers of Blood” quotation has been deliberately and conveniently twisted into something which was never said.

The term is a reference to Classical History and the River Tiber and was never intended to indicate the streets of Britain would, as those subject to the usual method of screaming Racist with little thought present it, run with Blood.
The comment simply refers to the Romans, having blindly ignored the problems creeping up around them were left wondering how on earth they had arrived at a state of disaster.
Powell was simply pointing out that by failing to address problems when they were able to be dealt with you would eventually be faced with something too big to deal with. Put another way, “A stitch in time saves nine!”

Just a different version of the Orthodoxy which will. no doubt, attract the usual screams of “Racist” and “Fascist Thug”. Once the knee-jerkers have played that record I suggest they read what I have said and if they still feel the same I suggest they explain exactly where there is something to warrant those accusations.

percy toboggan
15-Mar-08, 00:34
[quote=JAWS;358565]Just as a matter of interest, how many of those who decry Powell's speech have actually read it with an open mind and how many are just accepting the version presented by others?
quote]

An exceptionally good point.

TBH
15-Mar-08, 00:35
You re so right..the rose of blood is here already..my elf says so!Rose?[lol]

JAWS
15-Mar-08, 00:38
In Birmingham, where I current live, there has been outbreaks of violence, 1981, 1984, 1985 between West Indians and the police. The latest and worst was between West Indians and Asians, in the media this was over a false rape accusation but in reality was a drugs war, in that the more enterprising Asians had taken over the drug trade from the West Indian gangs, and there is a certain amount of anti-Christian feeling from the Muslims against the West Indians.Just to clarify on that point. The origin of the supposed allegations of rape were never found. It was simply a case of the rumour mill run riot. (Not intended as a pun)
The story was that a girl of one group had made an allegation of rape blaming somebody from the other group. I can't remember which way round it was, not that it matters. The origin of the story was never found, nobody knows how it started and no such girl was found even to exist.

In other words it was a good Rabble Rousing story started with the intention of creating friction. As usual, rather than admit there was any such problem as a Drug War in the area it is easier to write it off as due to "Racist Tensions".

Sorry but I just wanted to clarify that what was reported at the time as a false allegation was in fact a totally none existant allegation.
Mind you, it just shows what problems a strong enough rumour can cause.

bekisman
15-Mar-08, 00:40
This is the full text (as it's been mentioned a few times):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/11/06/do0607.xml

davem
15-Mar-08, 01:40
[QUOTE=JAWS;358565]And thousands of left wing yahoos have used the same speech to silence, often by strong arm bully-boy tactics, anybody who disagrees even slightly with their aims of creating a Multi-Cultural Wonderland.

Two wrongs make a right then eh?

Dave M (left wing bully boy)

davem
15-Mar-08, 01:57
Yes I have read the whole speech, and if a multicultural wonderland includes a bit of tolerance, understanding ...... well - I am content; I would point out that I said rather more than the quote you pulled, the implication is I won't tolerate other views. What I find difficult is coping with the idea that racial intolerance and its promotion is acceptable. Powell may not have done that overtly; but he was far too clever to be surprised at it's interpretation. He knew full well, references to Rome indeed, he knew his audience well enough.

JAWS
16-Mar-08, 00:17
[QUOTE=JAWS;358565]And thousands of left wing yahoos have used the same speech to silence, often by strong arm bully-boy tactics, anybody who disagrees even slightly with their aims of creating a Multi-Cultural Wonderland.

Two wrongs make a right then eh?

Dave M (left wing bully boy)
No they certainly don't and that is exactly my point. Both extremes of the arguement are as bad as one another and use exactly the same tactics in an attempt to silence the other.
In effect, they are both sides of the same coin and bricks thrown by one group hurt just as much as those thrown by the other and believe me, neither use rubber bricks!

JAWS
16-Mar-08, 00:21
Yes I have read the whole speech, and if a multicultural wonderland includes a bit of tolerance, understanding ...... well - I am content, Rheghead; I would point out that I said rather more than the quote you pulled, the implication is I won't tolerate other views. What I find difficult is coping with the idea that racial intolerance and its promotion is acceptable. Powell may not have done that overtly; but he was far too clever to be surprised at it's interpretation. He knew full well, references to Rome indeed, he knew his audience well enough.
Just the same as the Archbishop of Canterbury knew his audience recently?

Apart from the colourful examples, given allegedly by members of the public, which I will not make excuses for, which part of what Powell suggests should be considered do you object to?

percy toboggan
16-Mar-08, 09:29
... which part of what Powell suggests should be considered do you object to?

Again, an incisive question. Davem mentions 'intolerance' the counter to which is 'tolerance' of course....but what has happened in the intervening years tolerance has mushroomed into semi-subservience...with indigenous organisations , faiths, and institutions prostrating themselves at the advance of incoming cultures so much so that many of those born here at the time of, or before Powell's speech are left to ponder, in frustration as alien cultures have marched unhindered into parrallel pigeon holes and great swathes of inner city Britain bear no relation to those we can remember.

Powell's true legacy was to shut down debate in the face of liberal outrage.
Roy Jenkins, the wettest home secretary in our history realised his errors on his death bed. He and his peers - politicians of all hues - have mistaken the evolutionary inevitability of multi-ethnicity for a multi-cultural hotch potch where 'globalistation' exists in micro-cosm, in Europes most populated country. Where all the world's feuds, ancient enmities and yes, intolerances are within touching distance of one another...and may one day be played out in your own back yard.

brokencross
16-Mar-08, 10:43
I think the basic premiss of Powell's speech was right and is sadly coming more true, day by day.

But these days, because of insane political correctness and the ever present fear of being branded racist or xenophobic if you so much as utter a word against someone who has not got the same skin colour as yourself, or does not hail from your own country, the tide of immigration will continue unabated until it becomes totally unsustainable. (We are a small island with limited resources). This unabated immigration will probably result in civil unrest by the more militant (on both sides). A lot of unrest in communities at present is between different immigrant groups so what chance does the indigenous population have.

Surely an open, frank debate to find a workable solution for immigration is far better than the festering undercurrent going on at the moment. By speaking out, you are not inciting hatred.

Surely the indigenous population should have the ultimate say on who inhabits their country. However the longer we wait,the less indigenous people will be left to put forward their opinions and so the cycle will continue.

I resent being told I must embrace a multi-cultural, a multi-ethnic, a multi-racial, multi-religious society. (I would be more likely to embrace it if we only had the good traits of other countries). I am fed up hearing the social integreation mantra. I judge every person I meet on their personality; their colour, creed and religion do not come into the equation.

I am for a strictly controlled immigration system and against what is becoming an open door policy. Politicians will have trouble sorting it out now, too many votes in the "multi-cultural society" to be lost if you speak out against any section/minority of society.

Lets have the frank open debate before Powell's "Rivers Of Blood" prophecy becomes an every day reality.

Wonder how long before someone has a go at me for my views. That assumes people will take the time to read it all. Don't really care if they don't because I feel better for having got it off my chest.

davem
16-Mar-08, 12:07
Political correctness, there's a phrase. What is misunderstood is that the language you use to describe, identify or catagorise either sets preconceptions or changes expectation.
People with Learning Disabilities started the century as cretins,idiots or the feeble minded. They then had the 'leap' to being mentally deficient or mentally retarded; next mentally handicapped then finally to P+LD's.
The point is; that political correctness in this and other spheres niether lowers expectations of the people described or alienates them further from the mainstream. I have watched real changes in expectation over the years driven by the fact that people did have to think about what they said before they said it. People now are more a part of their community and are able to contribute to it as a result of thinking and language that promotes inclusiveness.

As to which parts of the speech I disagree with .... as said in previous posts my main argument is not whether he was right in what he said, what people remember is "rivers of blood", they were not thinking of the fall of Rome. He was an intelligent man, he should not have provided the racists in the population with the focus or nationwide media coverage that let them develop further as a quasi political movement.

Ultimately the choice is between saying racism exists and should be allowed for, or that it is wrong and should be challenged.

On a local note the same rules apply to "tinks", a section of the population here are written off, people with certain surnames asked which M'............ are you and if its the wrong family don't get jobs, that often comes from people who aren't racist.

Was Enoch right no, no and no. What he said may have been carefully constructed, it reflected that racism existed and cultures co-existing would be difficult. Again his speech has been used to justify hatred and promote intimidation. I have no doubt that the protagonistists in this discussion would not approve of the BNP and Combat 18s unsavoury activities but the fact is that speech aided them.

JAWS
17-Mar-08, 03:19
In 15 or 20 years, on present trends, there will be in this country three and a half million Commonwealth immigrants and their descendants. That is not my figure. That is the official figure given to parliament by the spokesman of the Registrar General's Office. There is no comparable official figure for the year 2000, but it must be in the region of five to seven million, approximately one-tenth of the whole population, and approaching that of Greater London.
Check the current Census figures to see if those figures are accurate or a wild exaggeration.


Whole areas, towns and parts of towns across England will be occupied by sections of the immigrant and immigrant-descended population.
In Leicester by 2020 it is forecast that white people will simply be the “largest minority” being less than 50% of the population. In fact, in quite a few towns and cities in England that is also very much the case.


The natural and rational first question with a nation confronted by such a prospect is to ask: "How can its dimensions he reduced?" Granted it be not wholly preventable, can it be limited, bearing in mind that numbers are of the essence: the significance and consequences of an alien element introduced into a country or population are profoundly different according to whether that element is 1 per cent or 10 per cent. The answers to the simple and rational question are equally simple and rational: by stopping, or virtually stopping, further inflow, and by promoting the maximum outflow. Both answers are part of the official policy of the Conservative Party. The last sentence contradicts the claim he was not following the then Party policy. Doesn’t the current Government keep saying it is implementing similar sorts of controls?


I turn to re-emigration.... Nobody can make an estimate of the numbers which, with generous assistance, would choose either to return to their countries of origin or to go to other countries anxious to receive the manpower and the skills they represent. Nobody knows, because no such policy has yet been attempted....If such a policy were adopted and pursued with the determination which the gravity of the alternative justifies, the resultant outflow could appreciably alter the prospects. Hasn’t a similar policy of assisting those who wish, but cannot afford to leave, been suggested by the current “Racist” Government? That includes the idea that if they do not wish to return to their Country of origin and another Country wishes to accept them for their skills then similar assistance should be provided.
Those comments were conveniently and quite deliberately portrayed in certain circles as a demand that immigrants should be “expelled” wholesale and the impression given that they were to virtually be dragged off ,kicking and screaming in chains, and loaded onto (slave) ships to be sent back whence they came!


There could be no grosser misconception of the realities than is entertained by those who vociferously demand legislation as they call it "against discrimination"......They have got it exactly and diametrically wrong. The discrimination and the deprivation, the sense of alarm and of resentment, lies not with the immigrant population but with those among whom they have come and are still coming. This is why to enact legislation of the kind before parliament at this moment is to risk throwing a match on to gunpowder. Now some of that I do not agree with but some of that legislation is being terribly abused and occasionally for trivial or purely selfish reasons by some. I can, however see his fear, which did turn out to be unfounded, of a backlash to such legislation.
But while, to the immigrant, entry to this country was admission to privileges and opportunities eagerly sought, the impact upon the existing population was very different…....They found their wives unable to obtain hospital beds in childbirth, their children unable to obtain school places, their homes and neighbourhoods changed beyond recognition, their plans and prospects for the future defeated; at work they found that employers hesitated to apply to the immigrant worker the standards of discipline and competence required of the native-born worker; they began to hear, as time went by, more and more voices which told them that they were now the unwanted. I cannot comment on some of what is said there because the parts relating to hospitals and schools did not apply where I lived at the time. One thing I do know, however, is that those very things and been reported as problems in the National Press quite recently.


The sense of being a persecuted minority which is growing among ordinary English people in the areas of the country which are affected is something that those without direct experience can hardly imagine. Has anybody been watching the BBC 2 series called “White” recently?


To be integrated into a population means to become for all practical purposes indistinguishable from its other members. Now, at all times, where there are marked physical differences, especially of colour, integration is difficult though, over a period, not impossible. Now that is definitely “Racist”. Fancy claiming that full integration might take time to become reality. Good grief, how dare he?


There are among the Commonwealth immigrants who have come to live here in the last 15 years many thousands whose wish and purpose is to be integrated and whose every thought and endeavour is bent in that direction. But to imagine that such a thing enters the heads of a great and growing majority of immigrants and their descendants is a ludicrous misconception, and a dangerous one. Delete the “Commonwealth” part and doesn’t the rest of it sound awfully familiar, in fact, hasn’t, yet again, the virtually the same thing been said by the Government recently?


Now we are seeing the growth of positive forces acting against integration, of vested interests in the preservation and sharpening of racial and religious differences, with a view to the exercise of actual domination, first over fellow-immigrants and then over the rest of the population. Do I really need to comment on the current version of that part?


As I look ahead, I am filled with foreboding; like the Roman, I seem to see "the River Tiber foaming with much blood". That tragic and intractable phenomenon which we watch with horror on the other side of the Atlantic but which there is interwoven with the history and existence of the States itself, is coming upon us here by our own volition and our own neglect. Indeed, it has all but come.
That was said in 1968. To put it into it’s historical context, in 1968 Martin Luther King was assassinated as was Robert Kennedy who was a huge supporter of the Civil Rights Movement there. Those, amongst other things, led to massive Race Riots in numerous cities right across America.

Under those circumstances is it any wonder that Powell’s attitude was that we must take great care no to allow things to go the same way here and to ensure that immigration should be dealt with in a way ensured smooth integration into the society?

You can add to the above the fact that currently the Government, and nobody else for that matter, has the slightest clue what the acctual number if immigrants is. They can give you the lowest figure, which is those who have bothered to join in the Form Filling Society and even that figure is not really accurate. After that it is anybody's guess and, in truth, that's the way they like it.

Aaldtimer
17-Mar-08, 04:28
Brokencross..."Surely the indigenous population should have the ultimate say on who inhabits their country."...tell that to the Native American Indians, the Australian abororiginals et al!
It really makes me wonder about our attitude to immigrants when you consider the Scottish Diaspora! Not to mention the British Empire and the Irish as well.
Oh, BTW, Happy St. Patrick's Day!

percy toboggan
17-Mar-08, 18:20
I have no doubt that the protagonistists in this discussion would not approve of the BNP and Combat 18s unsavoury activities but the fact is that speech aided them.

Any vestige of interest I had in your opinion simply evaporated with this sentence.

Combat who? They are hardly mainstream...whereas the BNP are a legitimate political party attracting 5% of the popular vote at the last General Election.

The AH followers and devotees are a bunch of nutcases and , if they were all to be found swinging from lamp-posts I'd not shed a tear.

The whole thrust of this thread has been behind the notion that the cause of a few mis-guided white supremacists was not 'aided' by Powell's speech - rather the opposite