View Full Version : Would you swear an oath of allegiance to the Queen?
Lord Goldsmith's proposals to redefine British citizenship include a suggestion that pupils (school leavers) should swear allegiance to the Queen. Would you? Would you mind if your kids did?
What are your views?
NickInTheNorth
11-Mar-08, 18:54
In a modern society I can just about stomach having a constitutional monarch, but as for swearing an oath of allegiance to her, not a chance!
Penelope Pitstop
11-Mar-08, 18:54
No I wouldn't. Kids could make their own mind up when they reached the appropriate age.
cuddlepop
11-Mar-08, 18:58
In a word NO
No, No and thrice no!:eek:
hell raizer
11-Mar-08, 19:08
no way, this is going a bit to far
unfortunately i have already done that in a sense, if you join a miltary service you have to.....so i cant say i am a royal fan, but if i was never army then the answer would be no...............
Oh aye, an oath tae the Queen, that's a guid idea isitno?
An whit pray tell, wid we dae if King Rheghead wiz tae hear aboot it? Eh eh?
:lol:
I have no need to swear allegence to the queen as thankfully I was not born under her reign!
I most certainly would (and have!)
Seems I am in the minority here but i am all for queen and country .
I am a Royalist and a Unionist for my sins!!! ;)
It maybe should be up to personal choice but we do need something to have a bit of pride in, though maybe not an oath but something to promote britishness.
Oh aye, an oath tae the Queen, that's a guid idea isitno?
An whit pray tell, wid we dae if King Rheghead wiz tae hear aboot it? Eh eh?
:lol:
We wid hae ooer heids in our hands to play with!;)
percy toboggan
11-Mar-08, 20:05
This measure is only being mooted now because we have a section of society with a default position of antipathy towards everything Britain stands for. They do not want to be here really, though they certainly do not want to be anywhere else. Britain wages war against their brothers, and naturally enough this antagonises them even further.
On the periphery of this group are a whole host of others - smaller in number but lacking any default affection for Great Britain.
What a sorry mess...which can only be laid fairly and squarely at the door of New Labour politicians. As these misguided incompetents are the management arm of H.M. Queen I could not bring myself to swear allegiance and would not expect anyone else to.
A statement of commitment to a flag might be a better option but said flag would need to be amended to incorporate Wales. Even
this is just empty symbolism really and doesn't count for much. The Government is struggling for ideas because the experiment of multi-culturalism has failed...what we have here on these islands is merely a microcosm of globalisation at it's most extreme. All of the world in one small place. It's gonna be hell folks.
Ancient enmities and the rules of history tell us there is trouble ahead. Vows and oaths count for nothing. The whole idea is a non-starter and a sign of a desperate administration short of ideas.
Alice in Blunderland
11-Mar-08, 20:09
I know someone who is having to pay a lot of money for the ability to swear a legion to the Queen. :(
unfortunately i have already done that in a sense, if you join a miltary service you have to.....so i cant say i am a royal fan, but if i was never army then the answer would be no...............
Sorry Justine your not technically correct, members of the Royal Navy do not swear an oath of allegiance to the Monarch, I was a member and I never swore an oath, signed a bit paper though.
Absolute nonsense garnered from our American colonists who incidently are phasing out this silly routine of pledging allegiance to the flag of the united states. We have in our midst some very disenchanted, radicalised British citizens who would like nothing more than to kill every last one of us. That is the problem that should be addressed and no amount of pledging will alter their hatred for the country that has given them a better quality of life.
percy toboggan
11-Mar-08, 20:31
Absolute nonsense garnered from our American colonists who incidently are phasing out this silly routine of pledging allegiance to the flag of the united states. We have in our midst some very disenchanted, radicalised British citizens who would like nothing more than to kill every last one of us. That is the problem that should be addressed and no amount of pledging will alter their hatred for the country that has given them a better quality of life.
So. What do we do about them then?
Any ideas for a different thread?
Boozeburglar
11-Mar-08, 20:34
I think it is pretty conclusive.
Off with her head!
I would. Did as a kid and would still do it. Good for the soul! These days too many kids simply swear (and none of it polite) - this would give them a sense of national pride.... all to lacking nowadays.
Personally, I don't care if its the Queen, King Rheghead or the corgis. Its the concept I agree with.
cullbucket
11-Mar-08, 21:03
This measure is only being mooted now because we have a section of society with a default position of antipathy towards everything Britain stands for. They do not want to be here really, though they certainly do not want to be anywhere else. Britain wages war against their brothers, and naturally enough this antagonises them even further.
Sounds a bit like me and some other Scots I know.... ;o)
So. What do we do about them then?
Any ideas for a different thread?Indeed this is a subject for a thread of it's own but how do the moderators feel about a debate on this subect, is it taboo to have a discussion about the small but increasing radical element that is rearing it's ugly head in certain minorities of this country?
An Oath of Allegiance is a promise to be faithful to some person or concept no matter what transpires and however unreasonable they or it becomes.....
...why would any sensible individual take such a complete step in the dark with their loyalty?:confused
wouldnt it make more sence to swear allegiance to the flag or country? and not a individual but to a whole nation?
weeboyagee
11-Mar-08, 21:54
No, absolutely not. Not British - Scottish, and allegiance to Brenda - what for, what does she do for us and me? Swear allegiance to a drain on my pocket - if it was a true Scottish monarch yes, otherwise, yawn,.......zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
WBG :cool:
wouldnt it make more sence to swear allegiance to the flag or country? and not a individual but to a whole nation?
Even that bothers me...no wonder I got kicked out of the 'Brownies'...was I gonna swear by the 'Brownie Guide law'?:roll:
What's the need ..and why can't we be open minded and applaud what is good whilst eschewing the bad?:confused
Why the need for blind faith and total acceptance of a country or a King?
We swear to be faithful on a one to one in marriage and that has a poor success rate..... because circumstances change and oaths of allegiance do not take that into account.
no No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No way In This World Would I Do That.
not in this life time!!!!!!!!!!
percy toboggan
11-Mar-08, 23:03
I will get infarcated for that like I did when I mentioned work.
Goodbye
Sounds painful but I'm unsure what you mean...and don't go so soon!
percy toboggan
11-Mar-08, 23:10
...We swear to be faithful on a one to one in marriage and that has a poor success rate.....
'Poor success' - surely an oxymoron.
I disagree...at 2.7 divorces per 1,000 head of population British rates are the worst in Europe but when you consider the travails of modern life, the distractions and the economic pressure most people still know which side their bread is buttered ie. with a loyal, trustworthy partner for life.
northener
11-Mar-08, 23:14
Although I am in favour of a Monarchy in our system, I do not believe that some half-arsed 'oath' will make any difference whatsoever.
If someone wants something, they will simply nod their head in agreement and then carry on regardless - so it won't make a bit if difference to anyone entering the country.
Ask British teenagers to swear allegience? Don't make me laugh.
I'd have fallen about laughing at that age and wouldn't have seen the point if it were pointed out and made a point of with a pointy stick. I don't think the yoof of today is any different.
Education about social responsibility would be much more use than psuedo-American posturing. Chuck it on the extremely large pile of pointless political gimmicks.
percy toboggan
11-Mar-08, 23:17
I swore an oath to Queen Liz when I was eighteen....and bought myself out of it three months later for twenty quid. (three weeks RAF wages, near enough)
Even then it was a bargain
'Poor success' - surely an oxymoron.
I disagree...at 2.7 divorces per 1,000 head of population British rates are the worst in Europe but when you consider the travails of modern life, the distractions and the economic pressure most people still know which side their bread is buttered ie. with a loyal, trustworthy partner for life.
Agreed ..and happily so!
My vows were taken very seriously..but if OH had turned out to be OH the headcase..then I would have wanted a 'get out clause'..more so if he happened to be ruling the country I lived in.
What is wrong with 'reviewing' things as they occur?:confused
Didnae marry a Sovereign thank god![lol]
northener
11-Mar-08, 23:20
I swore an oath to Queen Liz when I was eighteen....and bought myself out of it three months later for twenty quid. (three weeks RAF wages, near enough)
Even then it was a bargain
Who for Percy, the RAF or you?:D
percy toboggan
11-Mar-08, 23:26
Who for Percy, the RAF or you?
Oh..the RAF.
They'd planned to let me loose maintaining fighter jets after some training :eek::lol:
A preposterous plan.
wouldnt it make more sence to swear allegiance to the flag or country? and not a individual but to a whole nation?
I believe the Queen is the county so it amounts to the same thing.
I can see why the idea of swearing allegiance to the queen or county for that matter is seen as a big deal and that people might object to it. I do think more can be done to promote Britain.
Growing up in Toronto the Canadian flag was and still is flown in front of schools. We started each morning by rising while the national anthem was played. Although I have not been back in a while I believe this tradition is still in place.
Support your county it is the only one you have (unless you get dual citizenship [lol])
I'm not sure that everyone would appreciate that an oath of allegiance to the Queen does not necessarily mean that literally. To me it does not necessarily mean an oath to a person that sits on a throne or gets invited to open a hospital but it is an oath to the Head of State which is to all intents and purposes the Country.
Our Head of State in a monarchical sense is only there because we the people allow the Royal family to represent us. They reign by consent. To me they represent or embody the struggle for democracy. The fact that the Queen's ancestors would blot out any representation of the common person if they had their way makes my opinion even more poigniant because it has been the commoner who has clipped their power back over the centuries to be purely representational.
That is what they represent, a country that resists tyranny and yet we accept there should be a monarchy because there could not be anyone amongst us that has the virtue to swap a fool's cap for a crown, like in a republic.
northener
11-Mar-08, 23:35
wouldnt it make more sence to swear allegiance to the flag or country? and not a individual but to a whole nation?
Good point, Brandy.
The Queen is viewed as being above mere politics and is the embodiment of the whole of the United Kingdom. So, therefore, if you were to swear allegiance to the Queen, you are in fact swearing allegiance to the UK over any political party.
That's why we have Her Majesty's armed forces and not the governments - in theory..........
Good point, Brandy.
The Queen is viewed as being above mere politics and is the embodiment of the whole of the United Kingdom. So, therefore, if you were to swear allegiance to the Queen, you are in fact swearing allegiance to the UK over any political party....
And thereby whatsoever their collective political beliefs and killing policies are..a ce moment la!
Blimey!:eek:
Kevin Milkins
12-Mar-08, 00:33
Might be a good question for the family of the late Michael Todd
Margaret M.
12-Mar-08, 03:24
No, and I also think that standing with one's hand over the heart and pledging allegiance to a flag is every bit as silly.
Going by the pol there is a lot of org rebels here lol.
Its a stupid idea the big question what we should have a say on and needs to be addressed is independance for scotland not swearing allegiance to the flag or country or queen
candyfloss
12-Mar-08, 09:51
Not a chance :eek:
The Pepsi Challenge
12-Mar-08, 10:02
Our First Minister has to swear an oath, so why not everyone else?
I feel no allegiance whatsoever to the grand leeches of the Royal Family. Therefore it would be totally against my principles to do so.
Where are they proposing we do this - the centre circle at Ibrox?
I have no time for the notion that anyone is better than anyone else. There is no way I would bow to the Queen, far less swear an oath of allegiance to her, or anyone else for that matter. No forelock tugging here!!
anneoctober
12-Mar-08, 14:38
Absolutely NO way that I would be party to this nonsense. Gordon Brown does n't live in the same world as the rest of us, can you REALLY imagine kids today swearing this oath? I for one don't feel "British" , I'm just a Scottish lassie ( NO sniggering at the back! :lol:), never have and never will be British - regardless of what my passport says!
Boozeburglar
12-Mar-08, 14:45
You haven't got one of the new Scottish Government issue passports yet?
;)
Dog-eared
12-Mar-08, 14:50
I wonder what the implications would be if you broke your pledge to the Queen.
Could they lock you up under some ancient law ?
Could it leave you wide open to sweeping legislations and laws you've never seen before ?
This seems a likely reason for this this pile of rot , rather than any good intentions towards British citizens. [disgust]
IE another bit of " 1984 "
Big Brother is here, and growing fast. Enjoy your "freedom " while it lasts.
Big hughie
12-Mar-08, 14:52
They would need to get rid of the Act of Settlement before I could bring myself do it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_Settlement_1701 (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_Settlement_1701)
I find the exclusion of Catholics in this day and age abhorent and backward
Beeg Hugheeeee
Would you swear an oath of allegiance to the Queen?
i thot freddie mercury wis deid?? [lol][lol]
Valerie Campbell
12-Mar-08, 16:54
Our First Minister has to swear an oath, so why not everyone else?
That's because they are servants under her as sovereign of the United Kingdom. For all I think she does a good ambassadorial job, I wouldn't swear an oath to her. As for the Americans swearing an oath to a flag, well, odd just about sums it up.
But do bear in mind the Queen swears too. My uncle was at Balmoral and has heard all of the royal family swearing. The air was definately red, white and BLUE!!!
percy toboggan
12-Mar-08, 18:17
Some serious replies here...it's a shame the poll questions are so crass.
A simple 'no' option would have been a real bonus.:roll:
Cinders392
12-Mar-08, 21:21
I most certainly would (and have!)
Seems I am in the minority here but i am all for queen and country .
I am a Royalist and a Unionist for my sins!!! ;)
It maybe should be up to personal choice but we do need something to have a bit of pride in, though maybe not an oath but something to promote britishness.
Im with you!
I have also signed a bit of paper!! I was a brownie and guide and promised to serve my queen and country!!:)
lady penelope
12-Mar-08, 21:25
No. I wouldn't.
Some serious replies here...it's a shame the poll questions are so crass.
A simple 'no' option would have been a real bonus.:roll:
I'm so terribly dreadfully sorry Percy, will you ever find it in your heart to forgive one for one's such crass behaviour! ;)
Im with you!
I have also signed a bit of paper!! I was a brownie and guide and promised to serve my queen and country!!:)
Aye, no doubt there will be a lot of "Brownies" swearing an oath to the Queen.
Gordon Browntongue is nothing but a glove puppet paying lip-service.
I believe the Queen is the county so it amounts to the same thing.
I can see why the idea of swearing allegiance to the queen or county for that matter is seen as a big deal and that people might object to it. I do think more can be done to promote Britain.
Growing up in Toronto the Canadian flag was and still is flown in front of schools. We started each morning by rising while the national anthem was played. Although I have not been back in a while I believe this tradition is still in place...
Yes, it still happens. And the flag would be flown at half mast in the event of a death in the royal family.
As a Canadian Brownie/Guide I too made promises of duty to the Queen. And I still maintain that promise. I am not a British citizen though and so I cannot comment on the real question of the thread, although I did vote for the first option because I am a British subject and support the monarchy.
Sorry, but at its historical basis you are buying into a slave mentality.
It's not reverence..it's subjegation and voluntary subjegation at that!:confused
Sorry, but at its historical basis you are buying into a slave mentality.
It's not reverence..it's subjegation and voluntary subjegation at that!:confused
I find this post very strange, are you saying that all our Troops who all swear oaths of allegiance, and our MSP's also are buying into a slave mentality :confused
Whitewater
12-Mar-08, 23:10
Scouts and guides all swear allegiance, so I guess many of us have done so already, but probably forgot about it.
If you are born in this country I don't see the point, but if you are an imigrant and go for citizenship you have to swear an oath of allegiance. However, having said that, if you are born in the country it should not be necessary is perhaps not always true, as we have all seen recently there are many people born in this country who obviously hate the site of us and everything this country stands for.
Anybody can swear allegiance, that does not make them love this country, that love comes from the heart and you are born with it, most of us have a special allegiance for the land of our birth.
I find the concept that I should be expected to Swear an Oath of Allegiance to the Country of my birth both objectionable and insulting.
As to the concept that it would somehow make anybody born here a better citizen by doing so on leaving school seems to me to be an accusation that the Education System may somehow have failed in teaching children how to behave in society.
The claim that by having immigrants take the Oath in schools is so it gives children the opportunity to ask them questions about why the left their Country of Origin and decided to come to Britain, and that reason was given by one of it’s proponents, is nothing more than a pathetic excuse and a gimmick.
I have no objection to such people explaining the manner in which some Countries are run and the dangers and distress their people suffer as a result. Yes, it is a good idea that children are taught to respect the freedoms we have here and what some of the alternatives are but that can be done by those same people without the rest of the nonsense.
If some people wish to have some sort of Ceremony to show they are happy to become a British Citizen or even to indicate that they wish to settle here then I have no objection to that. However, I think that should be the choice of the individual concerned and nobody should be obliged or feel under pressure to do so.
The whole concept is nothing more than a pathetic gimmick dreamed up by people who have too much time on their hands and to little to do with which to fill it.
Absolutely NO way that I would be party to this nonsense. Gordon Brown does n't live in the same world as the rest of us, can you REALLY imagine kids today swearing this oath? I for one don't feel "British" , I'm just a Scottish lassie ( NO sniggering at the back! :lol:), never have and never will be British - regardless of what my passport says!
ah, but we are called British because for the past few centuries, peeps have travelled and interbred from top to bottom of this island, especially during war times and across the water so although we are born in specified areas of the island we cannot define ourselves as one origin or another and remember, Caithness and Orkney etc, were pillaged by the vikings when they invaded, so many are Nordic descent. The oath of alliangence is more towards protecting this Island from hostiles by swearing to serve our Queen who is the head of this Island. I would not swear personally but I would do everything I could to defend this Island, the British isles. What is the old adage? oh yes, united we stand, devided we fall, and united we were in two long world wars, just what is it with this them and us thing, did our relatives fight and die for us to be foever divided, no they fought for a free country, a free United Kingdom, peeps forget that, and what if we had been invaded by Germany, just what would we be called then? Little Germany? come on! Well it is a boring day today so thought I'd liven up this debate a bit! :lol:
I think the poll results give a fantastic insight into today’s Britain. The majority do not want to make a commitment to being good citizens, respects the Countries laws and institutions…………but expect the Country to help them as soon as something goes wrong. Give yourselves a pat on the back.
Humerous Vegetable
13-Mar-08, 15:34
I think the poll results give a fantastic insight into today’s Britain. The majority do not want to make a commitment to being good citizens, respects the Countries laws and institutions…………but expect the Country to help them as soon as something goes wrong. Give yourselves a pat on the back.
That's a rather bizarre interpretation to put on it. In what way does it indicate that the majority do not want to commit to being good citizens, or do not respect the laws of the country? Most of us are law-abiding citizens who love (or at least respect) Scotland. Waving your hand around and mumbling a few meaningless phrases does not make you a good citizen. In what way do we "expect the country to help us as soon as something goes wrong"? Are you meaning the police, or the armed forces, who we pay through the nose for?
When I applied for my Canadian citizenship I was excused taking the oath to the queen on the grounds that I was British! In fact I didn't even have to go the ceremony.
But when my American wife went to take out Canadian citizenship she had to go to citizenship court. I can remember if she took an oath - I think she did but was really pissed of about it. My attention was distracted by the presence of two gorgeous female mounties so I cant remember for sure.
Years ago I ran a parking lot in Toronto and my boss was a gentleman in the middle years of his life who hailed from Czhecoslavikia (pardon the spelling). He kept asking me "Why English Queen on Canadian money???" Referring of course to Her Majesty's presence on our banknotes. He was profoundly upset by this, as if Canada had somehow enslaved him to the Royal Family. Still he was not pissed off enough to go back from whence he had come....
Later he ran a weiner schnizel/goulash restaurant, which meant his wife did all the cooking while he counted the (English Queen) money.
Which provides me with the perfect segue into what I consider another item in the deterioration of absolutely everything.
When I was an undergrad at the University of Toronto all we impoverished, long haired, dope fiend pacifists and worse dined regularly at a strip of Hungarian restaurants along the west end of Bloor St. (If any of you have ever been there...) This part of town was called the Goulash Archipelago. It featured gigantic helpings, juke boxes with gypsy music, and assorted expatriated Hungarian intellectuals with enormous battered leather briefcases containing - who knows what - manifestoes, memoirs, mouldy sandwiches - who knows?
Recently I felt the urge for a huge bowl of steaming goulash soup to warm me up because we are having a most severe winther here in Toronto. So off I went along Bloor Street.
Oh Tempora! Oh Mores! - (I did Latin at the Miller academy so I can say stuff like that)....No more Goulash Archipelado, no more gypsy tunes, no more Hungarian professors. IN fact, no more Hungarian anything.
Instead there are sushi bars.
Sushi bars.
Raw fish.
In the middle of a Canadian winter.
As far as I am concerned it is the end of the world.
Next thing they will be removing the Queen from British money...
I think we should all be taking an oath of allegiance and if we could squeeze something in about eastern European restaurants it would be fine by me!
cullbucket
13-Mar-08, 15:58
That's a rather bizarre interpretation to put on it. In what way does it indicate that the majority do not want to commit to being good citizens, or do not respect the laws of the country? Most of us are law-abiding citizens who love (or at least respect) Scotland. Waving your hand around and mumbling a few meaningless phrases does not make you a good citizen. In what way do we "expect the country to help us as soon as something goes wrong"? Are you meaning the police, or the armed forces, who we pay through the nose for?
I agree, I guess at least one of the royalists who are in the minority in this poll has stretched the bounds of inference... sour grapes?
Next thing they will be removing the Queen from British money...
I think we should all be taking an oath of allegiance and if we could squeeze something in about eastern European restaurants it would be fine by me!
If I remember correctly Rich, your Canadian $2 coin your Toonie is the rudest coin to our Queen, it has her head on one side and a bear behind on the other [lol]
I agree, I guess at least one of the royalists who are in the minority in this poll has stretched the bounds of inference... sour grapes?
I don't live in the UK anymore - I'll make my own bed;)
I think the poll results give a fantastic insight into today’s Britain. The majority do not want to make a commitment to being good citizens, respects the Countries laws and institutions…………but expect the Country to help them as soon as something goes wrong. Give yourselves a pat on the back.
You can respect the laws etc perfectly well without the need to swear allegiance to anyone or anything. We are not able to opt out of paying taxes and until we can it is our right to expect that which is available to all tax payers. I never had any say in whether or not this country has a monarchy. It would be an abuse of my freedom of choice to make me swear an allegiance. I, and I alone, will be the judge of who I see as fit to have my respect in this world.
percy toboggan
13-Mar-08, 18:12
I'm so terribly dreadfully sorry Percy, will you ever find it in your heart to forgive one for one's such crass behaviour! ;)
We all make mistakes.
I s'pose. Good job yer not called Beryl.
:roll:
You can respect the laws etc perfectly well without the need to swear allegiance to anyone or anything. We are not able to opt out of paying taxes and until we can it is our right to expect that which is available to all tax payers. I never had any say in whether or not this country has a monarchy. It would be an abuse of my freedom of choice to make me swear an allegiance. I, and I alone, will be the judge of who I see as fit to have my respect in this world.
I don't disagree with any of that Scorrie, and I don't think that an oath of allegiance (to Monarchy, Flag or Institution) will make any better citizens. But the fact that many would refuse to consider making any commitment to their Country is indicative of a society in decline. If I can use an analogy – I happen to think that money is not a great motivator, however when you find out that someone is getting paid more than you for doing the same work, it is a demotivator. The fact that people would choose not to make a commitment shows that they have none imho.
I am not a great JFK fan, but I do like the line:
Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country
I don't disagree with any of that Scorrie, and I don't think that an oath of allegiance (to Monarchy, Flag or Institution) will make any better citizens. But the fact that many would refuse to consider making any commitment to their Country is indicative of a society in decline. If I can use an analogy – I happen to think that money is not a great motivator, however when you find out that someone is getting paid more than you for doing the same work, it is a demotivator. The fact that people would choose not to make a commitment shows that they have none imho.
I am not a great JFK fan, but I do like the line:
Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country
Sadly, for JFK, what many people did for their country was plooter into Vietnam and drop Napalm on innocent kids.
If I had made an oath of allegiance to my Country, I would have had to accept and support its decision to invade Iraq. Luckily, I was free to make my mind up that the invasion was not justified and I was not party to supporting it in any way. My main concern was for our troops being forced to sacrifice their lives in the name of politics. If wars were fought by Politicians, there would be a lot less of them being declared!!
I wonder how many people who have made an oath to their country have actually thought about the deeper moral issues and conflicts it might lead to?
I find this post very strange, are you saying that all our Troops who all swear oaths of allegiance, and our MSP's also are buying into a slave mentality :confused
Sorry to take a while to get back to you golach.
As my post says "at its historical basis". That's buying into the idea that one person is "better" than any other since they happen to have access to more bully boys than the next and can therefore become king or queen. Don't forget that the act which put the present royal family on the throne was, at its historical basis, the Norman Conquest, which was little more than a land grab by a bunch of opportunists. Now, remind me, why should I be interested in an oath of allegiance?
As for the troops and MSPs who so concern you, the oath comes with the job. I'd remove the need to swear any oath if I could, but as the sovereign is still the Head of State and the only armed forces usually permitted belong to her, it seems that it's unlikely that'll change soon. (And yes, I know about the Duke of Atholl!;))
Karia
Sorry to take a while to get back to you golach.
As my post says "at its historical basis". That's buying into the idea that one person is "better" than any other since they happen to have access to more bully boys than the next and can therefore become king or queen. Don't forget that the act which put the present royal family on the throne was, at its historical basis, the Norman Conquest, which was little more than a land grab by a bunch of opportunists. Now, remind me, why should I be interested in an oath of allegiance?
As for the troops and MSPs who so concern you, the oath comes with the job. I'd remove the need to swear any oath if I could, but as the sovereign is still the Head of State and the only armed forces usually permitted belong to her, it seems that it's unlikely that'll change soon. (And yes, I know about the Duke of Atholl!;))
Karia
Eh?? What are you trying to say?
I most certainly would (and have!)
Seems I am in the minority here but i am all for queen and country .
I am a Royalist and a Unionist for my sins!!! ;)
It maybe should be up to personal choice but we do need something to have a bit of pride in, though maybe not an oath but something to promote britishness.
couldnt have put it better myself....
I did and I still would!!
I most certainly would (and have!)
Seems I am in the minority here but i am all for queen and country .
I am a Royalist and a Unionist for my sins!!! ;)
It maybe should be up to personal choice but we do need something to have a bit of pride in, though maybe not an oath but something to promote britishness.We had that when 'Made in Britain' actually meant something prestigious.
Eh?? What are you trying to say?
Without knowing which bits you don't understand I can't really help.:confused
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As my post says "at its historical basis". That's buying into the idea that one person is "better" than any other since they happen to have access to more bully boys than the next and can therefore become king or queen. Don't forget that the act which put the present royal family on the throne was, at its historical basis, the Norman Conquest, which was little more than a land grab by a bunch of opportunists. Now, remind me, why should I be interested in an oath of allegiance?
As for the troops and MSPs who so concern you, the oath comes with the job. I'd remove the need to swear any oath if I could, but as the sovereign is still the Head of State and the only armed forces usually permitted belong to her, it seems that it's unlikely that'll change soon. (And yes, I know about the Duke of Atholl!;))
Karia
Actually, all of it, What has the Norman Conquest, and the Duke of Atholl, got to do with it all?:confused
Actually, all of it, What has the Norman Conquest, and the Duke of Atholl, got to do with it all?:confused
Hi Golach,
The present British royal family can trace their roots back to William the Conqueror (I'm sure I've read somewhere that the queen is fairly proud of this). The Norman Conquest was little more than a glorified land grab by various heavies who happened to have a better military system than the English who lived there at the time. So the entire basis for the royal family's position is an act of theft. Certainly William had the good sense to get a papal blessing for the adventure (an early medieval equivalent of U.N. approval?), although I don't think he claimed he was bringing freedom and democracy to the oppressed English.:lol:
I would suggest that to swear an oath of allegiance to any individual based on their gene pool is trusting at the very least. To do so when the 'right' to claim such allegiance is built on such dubious foundations looks rather more anti-democratic.
The Duke of Atholl is the only person in Britain with the legal permission to raise a private army. Having mentioned the near-monopoly of the monarch in the armed forces department, I thought I should also mention the exception.
Hope this helps.
Karia,
I don't wish to give a history lesson, but I think some of your facts are slightly out of synch. The thread as about swearing an oath to a Monarch.
And as you brought up the Normans, can I point out one or two facts about the Monarchy of England.
Firstly there were 20 Saxon Kings before the Normans arrived.
There were only 4 Norman Kings
Then there were the Plantagenet's of which there were 8 Kings
Then the House Lancaster of which there were 6 Kings
Then came the Tudors which consisted of 5 Kings and 2 Queens
After the Tudors thats when the Scots took over
The Stuarts of which there were 6 Kings and 2 Queens
Then came the Hanovarians of which there were 7 Kings and 1 Queen
The Hanovarians then changed their name to Windsor with 4 Kings and 1 Queen.
The Scots have an equally long family tree
Starting with King Kenneth MacAlpin in 843 he was the founder of the House of Alpin of which there were 15 Kings
Then came the House of Dunkeld with 3 Kings
Then the House of Canmore with 13 Kings and 1 Queen
Then the House of Balliol with 1 King
The the House of Bruce with 2 Kings
and finally the House of Stuart with 8 Kings and 1 Queen.
So where you may say the list above are a bunch of heavy handed thieves, I on the other hand think that without them we would be such a wonderful island nation.
But I agree, this suggestion that we follow the line that started this thread in the first place, it is flawed.
Karia,
I don't wish to give a history lesson, but I think some of your facts are slightly out of synch. The thread as about swearing an oath to a Monarch.
And as you brought up the Normans, can I point out one or two facts about the Monarchy of England.
Firstly there were 20 Saxon Kings before the Normans arrived.
There were only 4 Norman Kings
Then there were the Plantagenet's of which there were 8 Kings
Then the House Lancaster of which there were 6 Kings
Then came the Tudors which consisted of 5 Kings and 2 Queens
After the Tudors thats when the Scots took over
The Stuarts of which there were 6 Kings and 2 Queens
Then came the Hanovarians of which there were 7 Kings and 1 Queen
The Hanovarians then changed their name to Windsor with 4 Kings and 1 Queen.
The Scots have an equally long family tree
Starting with King Kenneth MacAlpin in 843 he was the founder of the House of Alpin of which there were 15 Kings
Then came the House of Dunkeld with 3 Kings
Then the House of Canmore with 13 Kings and 1 Queen
Then the House of Balliol with 1 King
The the House of Bruce with 2 Kings
and finally the House of Stuart with 8 Kings and 1 Queen.
So where you may say the list above are a bunch of heavy handed thieves, I on the other hand think that without them we would be such a wonderful island nation.
But I agree, this suggestion that we follow the line that started this thread in the first place, it is flawed.
Thanks for the lesson Golach.... Let's try it again though.:D
Those Plantagenets would be coming from the line of Matilda, daughter of Henry I, so still in the family.
The houses of Lancaster and York would be descended from Edward III (Plantagenet), hence their claims to the throne.
Henry Tudor got his claim based on descent from, if memory serves, Katherine the former wife of Henry V(Plantagenet) and marriage to Elizabeth of York.
Henry VII (Tudor) married off one of his daughters to James IV of Scotland, so when the Tudors ran out of acceptable claimants, there were the Stuarts ready and waiting.
James VI and I (Stuart) married off his daughters around most of the available courts of Europe, so once the Stuarts' time was done it was just a matter of looking for the likeliest lad (Hanover).
So it's still the same lot who are in position. And, historically, they still look like a bunch of heavy handed thieves. Which may explain the British Empire.;)
I would suggest that to swear an oath of allegiance to any individual based on their gene pool is trusting at the very least. To do so when the 'right' to claim such allegiance is built on such dubious foundations looks rather more anti-democratic
I was taught a long time ago as a young naval rating, who had to salute every officer who passed, that you (the rating) were not saluting the individual but the individual's uniform.
May I suggest then that when swearing an oath to the Queen, we are not swearing to a specific person, but to the Regalia that that person is entitled to wear regardless of the how they came by the entitlement to wear the regalia.
that you (the rating) were not saluting the individual but the individual's uniform.
Must have made doing their laundry quite a chore...all those uniforms to salute!:lol:
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