View Full Version : Bilingual signs
What a monumental waste of money, when Wick High needs money, nursery schools under threat etc..
Most Caithness names would not have Gaelioc equivalents anyway - what about Old Norse signs? The whole thing is completely fatuous.
Time we joined ourselves back to Orkney. Highland Council is becoming an even worse beaurocratic disaster than it always was.
The Caithness voice does not seem to matter any more, if indeed it ever did
[evil]I totally agree, bilingual signs, when the major languages spoken are English and Polish. Why put up signs for the minority?
Re schools closing, they hardly teach gaelic in schools, the ones that are still intact and functioning.
Does anybody want Gaelic signs in Caithness? I certainly don't. There are a million better things to spend money on - aren't there?
Kevin Milkins
07-Mar-08, 20:09
I find it diffucult at times to read the bit that does apply to me without congesting a sign with somthing that means nowt to most.I lived in South Wales and I dont know anybody that speeks Welsh so whats the point of spending money that has a much more pressing ear tag on it just to confuse drivers.
Why not go the whole hog and have signs in Urdu, Punjabi, Polish, Czech, etc. to represent the other cultures within our society?
Has anybody else thought about declaring independence for Caithness? I'm tired of the Highland Council - it doesn't do what we need it to do.
northener
07-Mar-08, 20:33
Has anybody else thought about declaring independence for Caithness? I'm tired of the Highland Council - it doesn't do what we need it to do.
Well, Rheghead has already declared himself King of Caithness. so the question is do we want a Monarchy or a Republic of Caithness?:D
With reference to the signs - waste of money, Gaelic culture being foisted on a non Gaelic speaking area. Orkney or Shetland wouldn't stand for it.....
.
I too am disgusted at the council wanting bilingual signs. Caithness does not have alot of Gaelic speakers so why do we need it? I would love to know how much it will cost - the papers seem to be omitting this detail, but I bet it is not cheap. Whats more important - trying to improve school buildings so they are SAFE, or replacing road signs so as to be seen as promoting the Gaelic culture. I am not against the native tongue of Gaelic but I think the authorities are going too far this time.
I am sure if Wick High was a Gaelic school it would have funding thrown at it.
So as it seems the public don't really get a say in this ridiculous waste of money that could be spent in a thousand better places, what can we do about it??? Is there anyone we can bombard with e-mails and say leave our signs as they are and our county names alone?
Flyermonkey
07-Mar-08, 20:51
I am not particularly enamoured with the ideas of signs up here in gaelic, but I guess it does give the tourists something to look at... part of 'Brand Scotland' and all that. Though I would agree that Norse would maybe serve us better!
In reference to costings I believe it won't actually cost anything as they will only add the gaelic on to the signs as they need replaced or on new ones. I don't suppose it costs anymore to write two words on a sign as it does one.
Tugmistress
07-Mar-08, 20:53
i didn't think gaelic was part of the history of caithness, i thought it was more west coast?
northener
07-Mar-08, 20:57
So as it seems the public don't really get a say in this ridiculous waste of money that could be spent in a thousand better places, what can we do about it??? Is there anyone we can bombard with e-mails and say leave our signs as they are and our county names alone?
Well.... I can remember that some eejits decided it would be a 'good idea' to place lovely stone signs with the words 'Welcome to Mackay Country' at the sides of the road in the Far North. Lovely pieces of work, they were.
They got sledgehammered.
Not that I would condone tearing down signs that insult the culture of, or incite division in a particular region........;)
northener
07-Mar-08, 20:59
I am not particularly enamoured with the ideas of signs up here in gaelic, but I guess it does give the tourists something to look at... part of 'Brand Scotland' and all that. Though I would agree that Norse would maybe serve us better!
In reference to costings I believe it won't actually cost anything as they will only add the gaelic on to the signs as they need replaced or on new ones. I don't suppose it costs anymore to write two words on a sign as it does one.
I'm all for brining more tourism into the area, Flyermonkey. But not a the cost of losing our identity.
.
As for signs surely the new signs will be bigger as text has to be a given size as they now have to cover two languages and that the text has to be translated (who by, where and at what cost) leading to extra delay = additional costs?
What is the point of a sign? Surely it directs and informs. Does having a road sign in two languages assist road safety or provide additional and important information?
Does it just cover road signs?
How does this help Gaeldom or the people of Caithness?
At a full Council meeting today (Thursday 6th March 2008) the Council voted in support of an amendment by Councillor Hamish Fraser Chairman of the Council’s Gaelic Committee, to support the Council policy as set out in its Gaelic Language Plan.*
At least 'our' Councillors tried: "In doing so, the meeting rejected by 36 votes to 29 a notice of motion by 8 Caithness Councillors who wanted their area excluded from the policy stating: “…the blanket roll out of bi-lingual signs in the Highlands should only proceed where there exists significant local demand for such a policy.”
Thought Thurso & Wick were Norse? So what a waste of resources!
http://www.highland.gov.uk/yourcouncil/news/newsreleases/2008/March/2008-03-06-01.htm (http://www.highland.gov.uk/yourcouncil/news/newsreleases/2008/March/2008-03-06-01.htm)
northener
07-Mar-08, 22:09
At a full Council meeting today (Thursday 6th March 2008) the Council voted in support of an amendment by Councillor Hamish Fraser Chairman of the Council’s Gaelic Committee, to support the Council policy as set out in its Gaelic Language Plan.*
At least 'our' Councillors tried: "In doing so, the meeting rejected by 36 votes to 29 a notice of motion by 8 Caithness Councillors who wanted their area excluded from the policy stating: “…the blanket roll out of bi-lingual signs in the Highlands should only proceed where there exists significant local demand for such a policy.”
Thought Thurso & Wick were Norse? So what a waste of resources!
http://www.highland.gov.uk/yourcouncil/news/newsreleases/2008/March/2008-03-06-01.htm (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.highland.gov.uk/yourcouncil/news/newsreleases/2008/March/2008-03-06-01.htm)
I'd like to see where the Councillors who voted for and against are from. I bet I can guess....
Nice to see that Hamish Fraser and his friends are more than happy to foist a foreign language onto a minority community.
Which is rather strange, really, seeing as they spent years fighting to stop the Gaelic language from being over-ridden by English. Now they intend to over-ride a minority themselves....
If that's not hypocrisy, I don't know what is.
.
Totally ridiculous, but all you need to do is look at where a lot of the councillors in Inverness come from to see how it came about. Inverness is full of pubs and churches so what does that tell you?
I can't wait to see them vandalised or graffitied.
Well, Rheghead has already declared himself King of Caithness. so the question is do we want a Monarchy or a Republic of Caithness?:D
Without a Magna Carta which is put forward to the King by his nobles, then the King has no powerbase. I am prepared to relinquish my affections for windpower to enable this charter!;)
Wasn't Pulteney Town a Gaelic town?:confused
So as it seems the public don't really get a say in this ridiculous waste of money that could be spent in a thousand better places, what can we do about it??? Is there anyone we can bombard with e-mails and say leave our signs as they are and our county names alone?
Go to http://www.highland.gov.uk/yourcouncil/yourcouncillors/councillorscontactdetails/ward11/ward-11a.htm (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.highland.gov.uk/yourcouncil/yourcouncillors/councillorscontactdetails/ward11/ward-11a.htm) to find the culprit, Hamish Fraser (Skye councillor) and send him as many e-mails as you like to let him know what you really think. He's already had one from me today, copied to the BBC & the local press - I'm really angry about this waste of money when we're told over and over that there's no money for the things we need from the education and social work departments. Not to mention the outrageous failure of democracy for the people of Caithness. Grrrrrrrrrrrr.[evil] Bombard away!
All I can say is expect the stocks of green spray paint at homebase to go down quickly.....
Lovely match, you would hardly notice!
I just wondered where the logic was.
We have a load of Caithness Councillors refusing to bilingual the signs because of the Gaelic yet their sentiments seem to advocate some sort of counter measure with bilingualling the signs with Norwegian. Eh??
OK, they want bilingualling the signs of one language which belongs to one race of incomers over another. Hmmm, is this right or not? Hmm, weren't the people who got expelled from the strathnaver, Gaelic? and we hold their plight so deepest within our psyche? doh! bing!
Och well, bigger signs means larger surface area, means more force when the wind blows, and oops.... another one gone.
On a more serious note, these signs are useless. Dingwall is peppered with them and as a non garlic speaker I find it confusing and utterly utterly pointless.
ywindythesecond
08-Mar-08, 00:19
Och well, bigger signs means larger surface area, means more force when the wind blows, and oops.... another one gone.
On a more serious note, these signs are useless. Dingwall is peppered with them and as a non garlic speaker I find it confusing and utterly utterly pointless.
Hear, hear!
But "garlic" speakers are equally confused. Imagine one getting to the Tore roundabout looking for Beauly ( French derivation beautiful place). Would he instinctively understand that the gaelic name on the sign "Am Manachan" (or very similar) meaning something to do with monks or priories, meant Beauly?
Actually, it wouldn't matter to him. He would know where he was going.
So, visitors uninformed and confused, locals not needing to know, lots of money wasted, what are these people doing with our money and why!
What will work best to remedy the silly part of the new signs: white paint or Nitromors?
ywindythesecond
08-Mar-08, 01:03
What will work best to remedy the silly part of the new signs: white paint or Nitromors?
Don't blame the signs for being silly, blame the political system. Lets keep behind our councillors who are reflecting our views here in Caithness.
Is there anyone in favour of Gaelic road signs in Caithness? Who knows the Gaelic names for Wick or Thurso? I do but neither are familiar to me.
Hands up everyone from Inbhir Uige. [disgust]
Is Inbhir Theòrsa any better?
Moi x
Ahhh... Councillors making decisions for regions far away; trying to look pompous and wonderful for all the clever little ways they have of spening the money that they have taken away from the populous. "Look at all the pretty fireworks we have laid on"; "Look at all the wonderful signs in traditional-speak that you will never be able to understand (unless we also force you all to learn Gaelic)"; "Look at the nice fresh development sights we have created by closing down your local amenities".
Sounds a bit like London gov't meddlings in Scottish affairs doesn't it!?:eek:
Is there a gaelic translation for Reiss or Thrumster ?
I was working in Newport, S. Wales recently and some of the local place names are obviously English, named by the English miners that went to live there in the 1700s and 1800s. The attempts to make them into Welsh names is farcical. Also in the local Asda everything was bi-lingual; making up Welsh words for things that never had a Welsh word seems to just be a case of taking a vowel out of the word and putting in extra letter l or y.
A few I remember -
Cornish Pastie - Pysty Kernow
Pizza - Pyzzll
Also in the local Asda everything was bi-lingual; making up Welsh words for things that never had a Welsh word seems to just be a case of taking a vowel out of the word and putting in extra letter l or y.
A few I remember -
Cornish Pastie - Pysty Kernow
Pizza - Pyzzll
See... totally farcical! :confused
northener
08-Mar-08, 10:12
Wasn't Pulteney Town a Gaelic town?:confused
I see where you are coming from Rheghead, but the Gaels who moved into Pulteneytown are a relatively new phenomena, they certainly didn't influence the majority of place names in Caithness.
Wheras the Norse names (and dialect) have been here for at least 800 years.
The annoying bit is the foisting of Gaelic translation onto a Village/place that was never known by that translation.
Pouleriscaig
08-Mar-08, 10:27
I think there are parts of Caithness who have a historical tradition of Gaelic speaking:
http://www.caithness.org/history/articles/educationreay1870.htm
This article outlines three quarters of Reay's inhabitants spoke Gaelic.
What will work best to remedy the silly part of the new signs: white paint or Nitromors?
White paint, nitromors doesn't work on road signs.:o:roll:
If they really want to change the signs why not make them Caithnessian:
"A9 Thirsa"
??
Most importantly, is there a Gaelic word for Tesco?
Maybe I should not be putting me sneb in as I ain't local, but I am Celtic; Cornish, and down there a lot of anger was generated when English Heritage applied their 'English Rose' emblem to road signs - these were quickly spray-painted over (did I read a similar action on this thread?) and the Cornish St Piran's flag was stuck on. Right now there is an official on-going procedure of replacing signs to bilingual. The signs bear a name in English, with a smaller Cornish version underneath. At least the powers to be are not putting up signs with a language which has very little bearing to the indigenous - as is the case here..
Highland Council - save for a few Caithness Councillors - are going to make themselves a laughing stock.
Caithness is Norse (see below) additionally a fair proportion of Sutherland is Norse too - and of course the name 'Sutherland' is Norse; "Suðerland"; South Land (from the Vikings' viewpoint)! And even over there on Lewis, Norse place-names outnumber those of Gaelic origin by four to one and on Islay by two to one*
Armadale, Halladale, Kirtomy, Melvich Tongue. Reay: The finest collection of graves from the Viking period in Caithness comes from Reay' Langdale, Skaill, Syre, Rosal, Torrisdale and Klibreck, Talmine, Kirkiboll, Skinnet, Melness, Boarscaig Durness, Sangomore, Sangobeg, Eriboll, Keoldale, Croispol, Borralie, Cape Wrath
And then the stupid suggestion that Caithness should have Gaelic names, what will these places be called?: Achvarasdal, Ackergill, Aimster, Auckingill, Barrogill, Benachielt, Berriedale. Bilbster, Borrowston, Bower, Brims Ness, Brough, Buckies, Clatequoy, Clyth, Corsback, Everley, Forse, Forse Geise, Gills, Halkirk, Halsary, Haster, Hastigrow, Huna, Hunspow, Keiss, Kirkstyle, Langwell, Latheronwheel, Lybster, Murkle, Mybster, Nybster, Ormlie, Ousdale, Pennyland, Quoys Of Reiss, Rattar, Reiss, Sandside, Scrabster, Seater, Shebster, Skirza, Sordale, Spital, Stain, Stainland, Stanstill, Stroma, Thumster, Thura Mains, Thurso, Ulbster, Warth Hill, Watten, Wester Loch & Loch of wester, Westerseat, Westfield, Whaligoe, Wick. of course there are many others; Dingwall, Golspie, Embo, Skibo, and Skelbo
What on earth 'made up name' are they intending for Thurso & Wick? pathetic!
* I did have all the links to these, but for some reason they would not post?
My Granny always listened to The News in Gallic on the radio back in the 60s, even though she was from Orkney and couldn't understand a word, she said she just liked the sound of the language !
If they really want to change the signs why not make them Caithnessian:
"A9 Thirsa"
??
I'm with you plank, I was going to suggest it last night. Thanks for beating me to it.
We could have signs like:
A9
Thurso
Thursa
A99
Wick
Week
Why are Gaelic signs always in that horrible shade of green anyway?
Moi x
I just wondered why bilingual signs are needed when British gaelic speakers are bilingual in English anyway?
I'm with you plank, I was going to suggest it last night. Thanks for beating me to it.
We could have signs like:
A9
Thurso
Thursa
A99
Wick
Week
Why are Gaelic signs always in that horrible shade of green anyway?
Moi x
I don't even think bilingual:
A9 Thirsa
A99 Week
A9 Down 'e line
:cool:
Direct action required, these have no place in Caithness.
northener
08-Mar-08, 20:30
I think there are parts of Caithness who have a historical tradition of Gaelic speaking:
http://www.caithness.org/history/articles/educationreay1870.htm (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.caithness.org/history/articles/educationreay1870.htm)
This article outlines three quarters of Reay's inhabitants spoke Gaelic.
In border areas there will always be a blending of languages or names.
If you take any OS map covering Caithness, locate Latheron and the road up to Thurso.
Most the names to the West of this road are Gaelic and on the edge of Sutherland, this would be where I would expect to find some Gaelic influence.
Now look to the East of this road.
An absolute dearth of Gaelic place names.
.
I don't even think bilingual:
A9 Thirsa
A99 Week
A9 Down 'e line
:cool:You forgot
A836 Oot West.
THis is what the Highland-wide Gaelic plan states :
"town, city and village welcome signs and Council road signs will be bilingual. Signs will incorporate historic village, town and city crests where appropriate. Gaelic will be placed above the English on these signs. Gaelic will be green and English in black. The size of the letters will be the same in each language. When existing signs require to be replaced due to age or damage, bilingual signs will be erected. Historic and visitor signs commissioned by the Council to direct people to historic and visitor events and venues should be bilingual unless this conflicts with Scottish Government regulations. The spelling of place names will be determined through consultation with Ainmean Aite na h-Alba.
Of course we will soon be "North Highland" so we might as well put up with the Inverness mafia's plans fro our identity to be subsumed into a bogus pan-Highland sense of "culture".
The pure fact is, that electorally, we do not matter very much in the scheme of things.
Alice in Blunderland
09-Mar-08, 17:26
Hee Hee folkies :lol: Weeboyagees winging his way home from south as I type just desperate to get his big wooden spoon out and stir it all up about the signs thread.
Duck everyone as we all know what a high horse Weeboyagee can go on and by the way whos got a spare room for me. ;)
Hee Hee folkies :lol: Weeboyagees winging his way home from south as I type just desperate to get his big wooden spoon out and stir it all up about the signs thread.
Duck everyone as we all know what a high horse Weeboyagee can go on and by the way whos got a spare room for me. ;)
Let him get on his high horse, and take the road west following Gaelic signs - when I next come North I will have a can of spray paint to the ready (for use in Caithness)
Hi everyone,
FYI I just had this reply from Hamish Fraser (The councillor in charge of all things Gaelic)
For information, there have been no bilingual signs erected in Caithness over the past five years as the previous Area Committee opted out. The cost of replacing name place signs in Caithness over the past 5 years has been just under £8,000, amounting to an average of £1600 per annum. Had these signs been bilingual the added cost would have been in the order of 35% (£2,800) - to cover increased plate size and lettering - an added cost of some £560 per annum.
I've replied to him to let him know what a waste it would be if you guys with the Nitromors and green spray paint have to get to work! Hopefully you'll be able to save your pennies and he'll be able to save his, too, by not putting our signs in Gaelic....
I directed him to the org for a read of reality... I wonder if he'll visit?
weeboyagee
12-Mar-08, 13:04
Yeah I wonder,... there are a lot in Caithness who are not that bothered about bilingual signs. I'm not bothered about them - I am bothered about the cost though - and £500 seems hardly worth the hassle getting up in arms about per annum - the countless thousands poured down the drain for projects that are absolutely senseless would bother me more - Fireworks on a Bridge - even though it was Inverness' money. Signage costs of an extra £500 hardly seems to be one of them.
If Hamish Fraser cares to look at this thread he will have it confirmed that the Caithness people are a bunch of small minded northerners intent on lowering themselves to vandalism and grafitti to make a less than well made point. And the tourists - well they will take an even dimmer view of the county - they won't care about your squabbles - they will measure you on your conduct as a local community. Vandalised signs - especially on the one "Thig a nuas gu Gallaibh" , "Come to Caithness" and the one at the Ord with "Failte gu Gallaibh" , "Welcome to Caithness".
There are Gaels in our midst, we (like it or lump it) have as much history of Gaelic as the rest of the Highlands in parts of our county - you can't deny one (the Gaelic history) and hold on solely to the other (the Norse) in as much as the Western Isles have a similar history. And BOTH are dead in the county in real terms but the last to die was Gaelic - not Norse!
It's not a discussion I care to get hot and bothered about - I know the county's argument and respect it very much - as I said, signs don't bother me - I accept the Gaelic history as I do the Norse, but increased cost of any considerable amount should be channelled into education in Gaelic where it will be of more benefit and not put up on a sign post.
WBG :cool:
It must be great to not get hot under the collar - maybe it's your celtic blood?! I'm afraid mine's Norse & the viking in me has been roused!
Doesn't it even bother you that our 8 councillors managed to get their act together to represent the majority of folk in Caithness - making a polite request that only affects folk in Caithness and yet their request was denied by the "majority" of the council - folk who have never been here and will never come here?
It's really the lack of local democracy that bothers me the most about this. We can't get the services we really do need but we're lumped with something we neither need nor necessarily want by folk who don't even live here.
It just doesn't seem right to me.
weeboyagee
14-Mar-08, 00:09
I think that Councillors in Caithness can agree - and they are quite right if they a) believe that it is in the interest of the county and it's people and b) if they believe that it is also the wish of the Caithness people.
On this one I think it's the greater picture that we have to consider. I had a chat with David Flear and I know other interested Gaels or supporters of the language and culture have had discussions with other councillors - just to let them know our thoughts and to understand theirs - whilst we live in the county. A lot of us are native Caithnessians with relatives, interests or other reasons to be supportive of the Gaelic language and culture in the county.
Anyway - it's the history of the county that I would like to see represented - but not at an opportunity cost of other services - not at all. If the cost is not an issue then what is it - it's not the fact that Gaelic has no place in the county - if this were to be the case in modern society then there is no place for the Norse.
The Norse language and influence died in this county centuries and centuries ago - the Gaels language and influence was present in our county right up until the last century, the fact that it is present in the Highlands of which Caithness is a part and the fact that we do have a Gaelic peice (and a bigger one than we give credit to) within our makeup it's not that big an issue if we allow the signs to show our inclusive Highland identity - anyone watch Eorpa tonight - A Gaelic programme from erm,.... Caithness? :D
WBG :cool:
I read a play called Translations by a guy called Brian Friel that told the story of the British Government rewriting the road signs from Gaelic to English against the wishes of the inhabitants. This is just the same thing. It's quite sad really, when will we ever learn that rewriting over a culture is wrong?
Maybe I should not be putting me sneb in as I ain't local, but I am Celtic; Cornish, and down there a lot of anger was generated when English Heritage applied their 'English Rose' emblem to road signs - these were quickly spray-painted over (did I read a similar action on this thread?) and the Cornish St Piran's flag was stuck on. Right now there is an official on-going procedure of replacing signs to bilingual. The signs bear a name in English, with a smaller Cornish version underneath. At least the powers to be are not putting up signs with a language which has very little bearing to the indigenous - as is the case here..
Highland Council - save for a few Caithness Councillors - are going to make themselves a laughing stock.
Caithness is Norse (see below) additionally a fair proportion of Sutherland is Norse too - and of course the name 'Sutherland' is Norse; "Suðerland"; South Land (from the Vikings' viewpoint)! And even over there on Lewis, Norse place-names outnumber those of Gaelic origin by four to one and on Islay by two to one*
Armadale, Halladale, Kirtomy, Melvich Tongue. Reay: The finest collection of graves from the Viking period in Caithness comes from Reay' Langdale, Skaill, Syre, Rosal, Torrisdale and Klibreck, Talmine, Kirkiboll, Skinnet, Melness, Boarscaig Durness, Sangomore, Sangobeg, Eriboll, Keoldale, Croispol, Borralie, Cape Wrath
And then the stupid suggestion that Caithness should have Gaelic names, what will these places be called?: Achvarasdal, Ackergill, Aimster, Auckingill, Barrogill, Benachielt, Berriedale. Bilbster, Borrowston, Bower, Brims Ness, Brough, Buckies, Clatequoy, Clyth, Corsback, Everley, Forse, Forse Geise, Gills, Halkirk, Halsary, Haster, Hastigrow, Huna, Hunspow, Keiss, Kirkstyle, Langwell, Latheronwheel, Lybster, Murkle, Mybster, Nybster, Ormlie, Ousdale, Pennyland, Quoys Of Reiss, Rattar, Reiss, Sandside, Scrabster, Seater, Shebster, Skirza, Sordale, Spital, Stain, Stainland, Stanstill, Stroma, Thumster, Thura Mains, Thurso, Ulbster, Warth Hill, Watten, Wester Loch & Loch of wester, Westerseat, Westfield, Whaligoe, Wick. of course there are many others; Dingwall, Golspie, Embo, Skibo, and Skelbo
What on earth 'made up name' are they intending for Thurso & Wick? pathetic!
* I did have all the links to these, but for some reason they would not post?
To place Norse and Norn placenames into Gaelic is a cultural and linguistic travesty, if they were fair dinkum at the Highland Council they would be considering writing these Norse Ioruais names in Runic to represent the true cultural identity of most Caithnessians. The idea of Gaelic signs seems somewhat twee north of the Tweed, and definitely misleading. By way of Antipodean analogy, it would be like writing Sydney (Australia) in Yura/Eora orthography "Thidni" without using the Yura/Eora name of Warrarn!
I read a fiction book by a guy called Brian Friel that told the story of the British Government rewriting the road signs from Gaelic to English against the wishes of the inhabitants. This is just the same thing. It's quite sad really, when will we ever learn that rewriting over a culture is wrong?
Maybe that's where they got the idea from (in reverse mind you), just like all governments irrationality is always more rational path, and the will of the people means nothing in a democracy after polling day....
Fact is always stranger than fiction!
nil teach acu gan nios mo airgead na caedfa!
nil teach acu gan nios mo airgead na caedfa!Have you got Bi-lingual signs in Australia, maybe some in Pitjantjatjara, Hope that's right?
Saxy Lady
14-Mar-08, 14:20
What an utter waste of money when we so desperately need repairs to schools, roads, etc. Will it really bring in more tourists? I don't think so!:mad:
weeboyagee
14-Mar-08, 14:41
What an utter waste of money when we so desperately need repairs to schools, roads, etc. Will it really bring in more tourists? I don't think so..
From what I gather Saxy Lady (should I use an 'e' heh-heh!), money is the weakest argument in respect of signage and as yet, no-one has (to my mind) put up a good argument that Gaelic has no place in our community in terms of history, no more than Norse has - given Gaelic is more recent in our county's history.
The main, and only legitimate argument I see is that it is not the wish of the majority of the county's inhabitants, and therefore a lack of respect from the rest of the Highland Community towards the people of Caithness, although, having said that, most of the majority are hanging their decision wrongly to my mind on one of the two above points.
I am not sure that if the cost is not an issue and that not everything goes ahead for the good of the county or the nation only if the majority wish it, there is an argument other than "we simply don't want it"! Is that good enough?... maybe,... maybe not (am I doing a good fence sitting job here) ;)
WBG :cool:
You forgot
A836 Oot West.
Is that the same as
A836 Up West ? :lol:
money is the weakest argument in respect of signage and as yet, no-one has (to my mind) put up a good argument that Gaelic has no place in our community in terms of history, no more than Norse has - given Gaelic is more recent in our county's history.
The strongest arguement against bilingual signage is probably that the exercise doesn't promote an improvement in communication where places are situated in Caithness. In fact it does the reverse, it unnecessarily crowds signage space with words that only a tiny fraction of the population bothers to understand and distracts from a language that 100% can communicate fairly efficiently.
weeboyagee
14-Mar-08, 18:07
Rheggers... cait' an robh thu? Tha deagh fios agad Rheggers nach eil "communication" an rud a tha sin a bruidhinn mu dheidheinn a bhalaich!
Communication has nothing to do with it - it is to do with bringing the language back into a society where it used to be (arguably so in Caithness) but recognisably so in the Highlands - where it was kicked out of by English - something that is happening the world over - but we're harking back to a HUGE thread that me, thee and 100 others embarked on yonks ago !!! ;)
WBG :cool:
might b wrong but I heard that 1 of our 4 landward councillors voted for the signs the same councillor also voted for the cuts in nursery schools:roll:
Rheggers... cait' an robh thu? Tha deagh fios agad Rheggers nach eil "communication" an rud a tha sin a bruidhinn mu dheidheinn a bhalaich!
Hey, Weeboyagee, how would you like it if I replied to your posting in Dutch, or Chinese, or Latin without a translation? Perhaps you wouldn't know what I was on about?
Most of us (I guess over 90% - maybe as many as 99%) don't speak Gaelic. It's just rude of you to post without a translation.
"Damnant quod non intellegunt" (Latin, by the way "They condemn what they do not understand!";))
How would you feel if your local signposts were all made bilingual in a language you did not understand - imagine them in Greek or Swedish? Well that's how we feel. We just would not be able to read them. We never would. It would feel like an invasion of our county, where we've always all understood each other until now. The beauty of your delicious Gaelic language is entirely in the sound of it - on a signpost, to a non Gaelic speaker, it just looks so ugly compared to when you say or sing it with your lovely lilt.:)
The Polish guys here try their best to speak English - they don't expect us all to learn their language although some of us might be polite enough to try. I'm afraid it's the same with Gaelic. You're very welcome as my neighbour - you're probably fantastic in every way - but I don't understand you unless we can speak a common language. For most people here, Gaelic is and never will be on their list of fluent languages. Sorry Weeboyagee, I wish you could live in an alternate reality where more folk shared your tongue, but if you choose to live here in Caithness you choose to speak our language most of the time and Gaelic when you're chatting with your Gaelic friends.
Much of Norse is alive and well in the Caithness Dialect, by the way, we only gave up the runes, not the vocabulary!
Is that the same as
A836 Up West ? :lol:The very same. How do we choose one over the other? :lol:
Hey, Weeboyagee, how would you like it if I replied to your posting in Dutch, or Chinese, or Latin without a translation? Perhaps you wouldn't know what I was on about?
Most of us (I guess over 90% - maybe as many as 99%) don't speak Gaelic. It's just rude of you to post without a translation.
"Damnant quod non intellegunt" (Latin, by the way "They condemn what they do not understand!";))
How would you feel if your local signposts were all made bilingual in a language you did not understand - imagine them in Greek or Swedish? Well that's how we feel. We just would not be able to read them. We never would. It would feel like an invasion of our county, where we've always all understood each other until now. The beauty of your delicious Gaelic language is entirely in the sound of it - on a signpost, to a non Gaelic speaker, it just looks so ugly compared to when you say or sing it with your lovely lilt.
The Polish guys here try their best to speak English - they don't expect us all to learn their language although some of us might be polite enough to try. I'm afraid it's the same with Gaelic. You're very welcome as my neighbour - you're probably fantastic in every way - but I don't understand you unless we can speak a common language. For most people here, Gaelic is and never will be on their list of fluent languages. Sorry Weeboyagee, I wish you could live in an alternate reality where more folk shared your tongue, but if you choose to live here in Caithness you choose to speak our language most of the time and Gaelic when you're chatting with your Gaelic friends.
Much of Norse is alive and well in the Caithness Dialect, by the way, we only gave up the runes, not the vocabulary!Fabulous post tootler.
Do I recall weeboyagee claiming he comes from Edinburgh? Now unless my history is well off the mark Edinburgh was never a Gaelic speaking region either. I am getting the impression he enjoys imposing his biases on whichever population he is drinking amongst. [disgust]
Have you got Bi-lingual signs in Australia, maybe some in Pitjantjatjara, Hope that's right?
There are some places with Bilingual signage, mainly just a sign saying for example "Welcome to the Traditional lands of the Kamilaroi" which is now rendered Gamilaraay anyway. In the "Pit" lands signage does occur, but not in all places where they are needed most like WADEYE where there are 2500 speakers of Murrinh Patha, or in Arnhem Land where the Yolngu Matha languages survive, of course there are about 50 dialects of Yolngu Matha based on family distinctions. As there was once about 750 indigenous languages and many more dialects, the common response would be, "which one do we use?", "no one speaks them anymore", and in Tasmania they would say, "there are not any blackfellas here anyway, so what's the point? Of course Northern Scotland would only have to choose between Gaelic, Norn, or perhaps even Pictish, but this will always bring about questions of the relevance of cultural sensitivities and ancient distinctions. In some remote Aboriginal communities like WADEYE you have an unbroken traditional that has survived the English/Catholic colonialism, as they were only missionised in 1936 and have that link with their stone age past still extant. Methinks there are not too many stone agers left in Caithness (my apologies to those who still live in black stone houses).:D
weeboyagee
15-Mar-08, 17:11
Hey, Weeboyagee, how would you like it if I replied to your posting in Dutch, or Chinese, or Latin without a translation? Perhaps you wouldn't know what I was on about?
You're right, I wouldn't wots ur point tho? Anyone who knows me and Rheggers will know that he knows a word or two of Gaelic and since it was for him your nose shouldn't be out of joint.
Most of us (I guess over 90% - maybe as many as 99%) don't speak Gaelic. It's just rude of you to post without a translation.
Again, this would be true if I didn't at least give the meaning in English.
Tha deagh fios agad Rheggers nach eil "communication" an rud a tha sin a bruidhinn mu dheidheinn
Communication has nothing to do with it
Although not a literal translation that's what I was saying to Rheggers.
How would you feel if your local signposts were all made bilingual in a language you did not understand - imagine them in Greek or Swedish? Well that's how we feel. We just would not be able to read them. We never would.
I don't have a problem with having them or not. If they are English and another language I don't understand I would be content in reading the English and being done with it. If they were to cost lots of money I believe this would be a waste but I have already stated that the arguments put forward at the moment are poor other than the fact that the majority simply don't want it and I accept that - what's with the personal bite on the fact that I posted a small piece for Rheggers with a translation?
It would feel like an invasion of our county, where we've always all understood each other until now.
Accepted - but your opinion - there are some who don't give a toss and will not feel it an "invasion". The language isn't foreign to the County why is it an invasion? And your post makes it out that we will no longer understand each other (you say "all understood each other until now").
The beauty of your delicious Gaelic language is entirely in the sound of it - on a signpost, to a non Gaelic speaker, it just looks so ugly compared to when you say or sing it with your lovely lilt.:)
Thanks. A lot of folk agree with you, the language is lilting - the language on a signpost (and there's plenty of them around) doesn't look ugly to me - regardless of the area I am in - Ireland, Wales, Highlands of Scotland - and I would be able to accept it in Caithness if they are here although granted - in certain areas they may look odd - a sign falls down in Keiss and has to be replaced - billingually - it will look odd. Inbhir Uige and Wick won't look odd, thats what it was called by the Gaels of our county and by the rest of the Gaelic world - the English monoglots will read the English, the Gaels will read the English as well as the Gaelic but associate with one more than the other.
Sorry Weeboyagee, I wish you could live in an alternate reality where more folk shared your tongue, but if you choose to live here in Caithness you choose to speak our language most of the time and Gaelic when you're chatting with your Gaelic friends.
Not my tongue - I'm a learner. I choose to live in Caithness and speak both English and Gaelic depending on who I am talking to - Rheggers is a Gaelic learner so I post a little for him in Gaelic with a bit of a translation - did you miss this?
Much of Norse is alive and well in the Caithness Dialect, by the way, we only gave up the runes, not the vocabulary!
Much of Gaelic is also alive and well in the Caithness Dialect and the Norse - Trosk is a perfect example of a Caithness word that is a legitimate word in both Norse and Gaelic and meaning the same thing in Norse and Gaelic but not as the Caithnessians now use it. Ever cut Peat? Most of the words we use in Caithness for the implements are derived from the Gaelic language. Ever made a "boorag" of anything - well the Gaels do as well. How would you know if Gaelic isn't alive if you don't know what the heck you're looking for, eh? Again there is nothing I have seen in the post that is a legitimate argument other than "The majority simply don't want it" and that's it. I can accept that, can you not accept that I accept it?
WBG :cool:
weeboyagee
15-Mar-08, 17:19
Do I recall weeboyagee claiming he comes from Edinburgh? Now unless my history is well off the mark Edinburgh was never a Gaelic speaking region either.
Born in Edinburgh,...and that's all. With a surname like mine and with the bulk of the family from Caithness and living here 90% of my life what the heck has Edinburgh got to do with this? No matter, the language of the Gael has been present in most of Scotland simply by the demographic movement of the people.
I am getting the impression he enjoys imposing his biases on whichever population he is drinking amongst....
Meeeooooowwww. What a load of rubbish. I haven't advocated imposing anything on anyone in this entire thread. Unless of course you can prove otherwise. The posts are starting to get personal (as if I am bothered) and proof that if there are some who can look at this subject material objectively then the others will just fire their canon of personal sarcasm to score - yawn,..... doesn't work for me and I find it boring. Let's get back to the subject matter in hand eh?....and carry on from there.
WBG :cool:
weeboyagee
15-Mar-08, 17:24
Oh,...and by the way - I'm back - who are the new kids on the block :eyes: sheeesh!
WBG :cool:
..... doesn't work for me and I find it boring. Let's get back to the subject matter in hand eh?....and carry on from thereOn the contrary, it works well.
I grow laconic even beyond laconicism; for sometimes I return only yes, or no, to questionary or petitionary epistles of half a yard long. --Pope.
Can you translate that into Gaelic?
Moi x
Rheggers... cait' an robh thu? Tha deagh fios agad Rheggers nach eil "communication" an rud a tha sin a bruidhinn mu dheidheinn a bhalaich!
Communication has nothing to do with it - it is to do with bringing the language back into a society where it used to be (arguably so in Caithness) but recognisably so in the Highlands - where it was kicked out of by English - something that is happening the world over - but we're harking back to a HUGE thread that me, thee and 100 others embarked on yonks ago !!! ;)
WBG
Sorry, Weeboyagee. Really, I am. I guess I'm the new kid on the block and I misjudged you - you really do get hot under the collar!! I promise none of my comments were meant to injure you personally - hey, I don't even know you yet.
I was only trying to help you to understand why some people feel so strongly that they'd rather paint out the Gaelic than look at it - I understand where they're coming from and you seemed to be finding that hard to understand.
I'm glad you agree that most people in Caithness don't want Gaelic on their signs. Can't you agree, in the interests of democracry, that in that case, we shouldn't have to have Gaelic on our signs?
It would be so nice if we could agree on something! ;)
Congratulations on being the first orger to rap my newcomer knuckles! Don't feel bad, I'm sure you won't be the last and I've got pretty thick skin. Forgive & forget - I'm not looking for enemies!
weeboyagee
16-Mar-08, 18:32
I grow laconic even beyond laconicism; for sometimes I return only yes, or no, to questionary or petitionary epistles of half a yard long. --Pope.....Can you translate that into Gaelic? Moi x
Tha. Yes.
WBG :cool:
Let the council repair the pot holes in the street first befoer doing anything, the people who learned to speak Gaelic also spoke English before, so therefore know what a signpost says.
weeboyagee
16-Mar-08, 19:08
Let the council repair the pot holes in the street first befoer doing anything, the people who learned to speak Gaelic also spoke English before, so therefore know what a signpost says.
And your point is? Are we harking back to the "Gaelic sings cost too much money in Caithness" again? Are we flogging an already very, very dead horse?
WBG :cool:
weeboyagee
16-Mar-08, 19:14
Sorry, Weeboyagee. Really, I am. I guess I'm the new kid on the block and I misjudged you - you really do get hot under the collar!! I promise none of my comments were meant to injure you personally - hey, I don't even know you yet.
They didn't - don't be offended - that wasn't me hot under the collar - that's me normal (me normal,... hahahaha - now there's a statement...)
I was only trying to help you to understand why some people feel so strongly that they'd rather paint out the Gaelic than look at it - I understand where they're coming from and you seemed to be finding that hard to understand.
Not likely - with being from Caithness care to think of the barbed wire fence feeling I get every time I try and say something about Gaelic in the county for fear of raising the "Gaelic signs - waste of money" argument? :confused:
Can't you agree, in the interests of democracry, that in that case, we shouldn't have to have Gaelic on our signs?
Hmm..... have a look - I haven't said I don't agree - think about it - I have said that it doesn't bother me (personally) - but if they cost a lot more then I will have something to say about it. In the interests of democracy we need to split the Highlands up and get back to the County Council set-up and we will have democracy. Democracy in the Highlands is that the majority rules whilst they sit in Inverness. Hence you will now have billingual signs.
It would be so nice if we could agree on something!
Dinna worry yersel, e day'll soon come roon'.....
Congratulations on being the first orger to rap my newcomer knuckles! Don't feel bad, I'm sure you won't be the last and I've got pretty thick skin. Forgive & forget - I'm not looking for enemies!
You don't have one in me, believe you me. My apologies if you thought that was a rap on the knuckles - it certainly wasn't meant to be!
All pals now?
WBG :cool:
In the interests of democracy we need to split the Highlands up and get back to the County Council set-up and we will have democracy.
We definitely agree on that! Perhaps we should start a new thread to see if anyone else craves democracy for Caithness?!
It's a pity you're having trouble practising your Gaelic without feeling the thorns.... Perhaps you should join the Gaelic choir - they're always looking for men with a bit of Gaelic and I think they talk it as well as singing! (I'm guessing you have to be able to sing to join, but you probably can - if you can learn Gaelic then you can certainly learn to sing!)
Best wishes with your Gaelic learning and let us all know if you join the choir!;)
weeboyagee
16-Mar-08, 20:05
We definitely agree on that! Perhaps we should start a new thread to see if anyone else craves democracy for Caithness?!
It's a pity you're having trouble practising your Gaelic without feeling the thorns.... Perhaps you should join the Gaelic choir - they're always looking for men with a bit of Gaelic and I think they talk it as well as singing! (I'm guessing you have to be able to sing to join, but you probably can - if you can learn Gaelic then you can certainly learn to sing!)
Best wishes with your Gaelic learning and let us all know if you join the choir!
No trouble practising my Gaelic - I'm in Lewis often enough and in the company of other Gaels often enough but Tootler, I just get the feeling that you really are having a serious, SERIOUS laugh! :D
WBG :cool:
weeboyagee
16-Mar-08, 20:07
Oh and by the way - you wouldn't happen to know the name of the Gaelic choir that I could join to practise my Gaelic - and any idea where I might learn to sing?
WBG :cool:
WBG. what defines a Gael?:confused
WBG. what defines a Gael?:confused
Any wind over 32 MPH is a gale Rheg [lol]
Alice in Blunderland
16-Mar-08, 21:05
Perhaps you should join the Gaelic choir - they're always looking for men with a bit of Gaelic and I think they talk it as well as singing! (I'm guessing you have to be able to sing to join, but you probably can
Oh my gosh Weeboyagee sing :eek: NAAAAAAHHHHH not for toffee can that boy sing Howl now thats more like it :lol:
Oh,...and by the way - I'm back - who are the new kids on the block :eyes: sheeesh!
WBG :cool:
Nice to see you back wbg... and nice touch.
weeboyagee
16-Mar-08, 22:28
WBG. what defines a Gael?
Somebody from the Gaeltachd (Highlands). And you know that fine Rheggers!! :D
Any wind over 32 MPH is a gale Rheg
Nice to see my old friends haven't lost their wit, sarcasm, how's the "wind" in Edinburgh the day then Golach? Plenty of it at Easter Rd mayb heh-heh!
WBG :cool:
weeboyagee
16-Mar-08, 22:30
Nice to see you back wbg... and nice touch.
Hi, cheers Ricco - nice to be back - was only havin a bit of fun :p
WBG :cool:
Somebody from the Gaeltachd (Highlands). And you know that fine Rheggers!! :D
So with Caithness being described as the Lowlands beyond the Highlands then Caithnessians aren't Gaels?:confused
Oh and by the way - you wouldn't happen to know the name of the Gaelic choir that I could join to practise my Gaelic - and any idea where I might learn to sing?
WBG
I'm not laughing, honest - smirking, maybe...:)
But seriously, there are two Gaelic choirs for Caithness folk to choose from:
The Caithness Gaelic Choir rehearses in Wick conducted by Norma Sinclair http://arts.caithness.org/group.php?id=58
Last time I heard them they were all ladies but I think that's just because they don't have enough interested Gaelic speaking men..... no pressure, Weeboyagee!
And of course, the famous Melvich Gaelic Choir which last time I heard it was made up of about half Caithness folk - some of them good friends of mine and all of them good singers. Conducted by Raymond Bremner - they practice twice a week (Tuesdays and Thursdays) in Melvich & are very serious about their singing and their Gaelic.
Even if you're not a singer, Weeboyagee, you should make the effort to listen to these choirs next time they're performing - I hear them every year at the Caithness Music Festival in July and they are real advocates for the Gaelic language.
Where can you learn to sing - the best place to start is in your shower with songs you know & love (Sorry, Alice!) Then move on to singing along with the radio in the car (make sure your windows are up when you stop at the traffic lights!) Then join the Wick Choral Society conducted by Don Renwick - they're happy to welcome men of any singing standard. Then, if you've survived all that I'll see you next year at the Festival in the Melvich Gaelic Choir!
We've digressed - time to get back to roadsigns. We could probably close this thread now, it seems to have proved conclusively that some people are really very against Gaelic road signs in Caithness, most people think they're a bad idea, except for Weeboyagee who really doesn't mind either way. That means nobody actually thinks they are definitely a good idea for Caithness.
Maybe next time the council get a vote on it, all 10 Caithness councillors will represent the majority of Caithnessians instead of just 8, and that might swing it in favour of local democracy?
Nice to meet you all - see you all again in a different thread one day!:Razz
weeboyagee
17-Mar-08, 14:44
And of course, the famous Melvich Gaelic Choir which last time I heard it was made up of about half Caithness folk - some of them good friends of mine and all of them good singers. Conducted by Raymond Bremner - they practice twice a week (Tuesdays and Thursdays) in Melvich & are very serious about their singing and their Gaelic.
OK, OK Tootler, I think you have struck a cord (pardon the pun) there - I'll go if you go? You up for it? Do you really, I mean like REALLY think they'll let me sing in this choir?? I wouldn't like to make a fool of myself ;)
Even if you're not a singer, Weeboyagee,...
....*cough*.... erm,... thanks....
..you should make the effort to listen to these choirs next time they're performing
Yip - I'm up for that, I think I should, if I could but might be a bit difficult to listen to them from where I would be standing - might not appreciate the sound so much...
I hear them every year at the Caithness Music Festival in July and they are real advocates for the Gaelic language.
You should let them know your kind words - they would love to hear that I'm sure.......
Where can you learn to sing - the best place to start is in your shower with songs you know & love (Sorry, Alice!)
Alice?.. Alice?... who the.... *cough* again,.....
Then move on to singing along with the radio in the car (make sure your windows are up when you stop at the traffic lights!) Then join the Wick Choral Society conducted by Don Renwick - they're happy to welcome men of any singing standard.
Erm,.... is Don Renwick reading this?.... he might just faint if he heard I was going to join the WCA when he hears my efforts after honing them in the shower......
Then, if you've survived all that I'll see you next year at the Festival in the Melvich Gaelic Choir!
Crikey - do you think if I work at it real hard I might be able to be with them THIS year at the Music Festival - you know this, I'm going to give it a REAL go!!!!
We've digressed - time to get back to roadsigns....
Why bother, I'm having a whale of a time during my lunch break for the first time in a long time - I feel I am on the road to a new career here...
Maybe next time the council get a vote on it, all 10 Caithness councillors will represent the majority of Caithnessians instead of just 8, and that might swing it in favour of local democracy?
Nah Willie MacKay and Bill Fernie are good pals and they have to vote as they see fit - especially Bill - either that or he might find his job a bit difficult to do and I won't get anything posted on the website on this org,..... WHOOPS,.... slipper mouth......
Nice to meet you all - see you all again in a different thread one day!
Nice to meet you too Tootler - your making my day - keep up the good work....... I love it!!!!
WBG :cool:
You are awful, WBG! Put the poor fellow out of his misery.......:lol:
Alice in Blunderland
17-Mar-08, 21:45
You are awful, WBG! Put the poor fellow out of his misery.......:lol:
You must be joking he enjoys being the centre of the attention as we all know......... all eyes on him..... :lol:
ywindythesecond
17-Mar-08, 22:17
I just wish folk would get half as excited about windmills as they do about gaelic signs. This is the proposed Spittal Hill and Durran Windfarms from the village hall in Dunnet.
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/5249/notextspittalanddurranfly2.jpg
weeboyagee
18-Mar-08, 19:15
Ever thought you're getting battered from both sides of the fence? :D Reference the article (in Gaelic) in Scotland on Sunday.
http://www.footstompin.com/public/forum?threadid=72487&pageid=7
Page 7.....
It's a helluva life really!
WBG :cool:
Ever thought you're getting battered from both sides of the fence?
It's a helluva life really!
Aw, ma Weeboyagee, I'm almost feeling sorry for you now!
I especially liked the bit in the other forum where you said:
"NOBODY in Caithness (or precious few) want bilingual signs - nobody.":lol:
I'm so glad you really do understand that - I hed ma doots!
Anyway, tell all your Gaelic friends that they'll get a warm, warm welcome from e Caitness fowk when they visit in 2010, even if the bilingual signs have been neatly painted out !-)
If they can sing half as well as you, Weeboyagee, then it should be a great gig! And as for the culture clash, how many of their wee communities can boast a full size swing Big Band, a chamber orchestra, choral society, a handbell ringing team, a brass band, blues band, rock bands as well as the usual pipe bands and strathspey & reel societies? None, I'm afraid!
I'll tell you what, maybe you can do a deal - a real cultural exchange - we'll take the Gaelic on our signposts if they can all make sure that their communities adopt the same cosmopolitan approach to their music making that we have in Caithness. Then we really would have a Highland culture worth celebrating!
(By the way, Weeboyagee, you're a rascal for not revealing your true identity to this newcomer to the org - if I'd known it was you then you'd never have had the glowing advert for your choir!:lol:)
northener
04-Apr-08, 20:36
Pulled over from the 'David Bremner' thread to avoid confusion!
WBG:
Right, where were we?
Ahhh.........
What on earth are you on about - my point has nothing to do with the festival coming here - it is to do with the history of people indigenous to Caithness, Gaelic speakers popoulating the greater portion of the landmass of our county - nothing to do with the festival coming here in 2010. You will see this in my post on the thread you mention also - didn't you note that?
The next part of your post therefore doesn't follow.
Now - would you care to comment on the correction I have drawn you to now you have got the right picture? Anyone who knows their history of Caithness properly will know what I was getting at.
Anyway - I don't care for the peaty malts (especially Islay!) - more of a Speyside freak myself!
Cheers,... hic
Indigineous Gaelic Caithnessians populating the greater portion of our landmass?
Are you sure?
I'm certain the the North East and Eastern side of the county did not have the Gaelic language. I believe this has been commented on by people who really 'know their history'. Iain Sutherland and certain novelist called Gunn being two that spring to mind.
I'm certain that during the C19th, the only people who spoke Gaelic in Wick and the surrounding areas were incomers from the Straths and fishermen from the North-West.
As I and others have commented on before, the majority of place names in Caithness are Norse. A fact that even someone who 'doesn't know their history of Caithness properly' can find out with relative ease. Get your OS map out of caithness and have a look.
Virtually none of the Gaelic influence and heritage you would have us believe is common in Caithness is evident.
I must say, WBG, for someone who professes to be not that bothered regarding this subject, you seem awfully keen to push Gaelic influence in Caithness, without actually coming up with much evidence to support your claims regarding the heritage of Caithness.
As much as I admire you nailing your colours firmly to the Gaelic mast, I must say that I'd prefer to deal in evidence when it comes to discussing an areas cultural heritage. Not beliefs.
Which, I think you'll find, is how people arrive at 'proper' history.;)
[QUOTE=weeboyagee;359459]Somebody from the Gaeltachd (Highlands). And you know that fine Rheggers!! :D
But not all the Highlands were Gaelic speakers or indeed Gaels.
Scots also known as Lallans is in fact a West Germanic language. Scots has developed into several dialects as listed below:
Doric or North East Scots
Central Scots
South Scots or Border Tongue
Insular Scots
Ulster Scots
It is possible to find translation services for Scotland's peculiar and special languages online. These will often assist you with the pronunciation of Gaelic and Scots words as well as providing you with useful phrases. Scotland's languages are interesting to learn. You will have a truly fulfilling experience learning to master these beautiful languages.
So if this is the case then to keep everyone happy they'll need some bonny an big signs to fit all that in!!!!! :).
As an ulster scot where is my sign??????? I demand justice now!!! lol
northener
05-Apr-08, 09:55
Scots also known as Lallans is in fact a West Germanic language. Scots has developed into several dialects as listed below:
Doric or North East Scots
Central Scots
South Scots or Border Tongue
Insular Scots
Ulster Scots
It is possible to find translation services for Scotland's peculiar and special languages online. These will often assist you with the pronunciation of Gaelic and Scots words as well as providing you with useful phrases. Scotland's languages are interesting to learn. You will have a truly fulfilling experience learning to master these beautiful languages.
So if this is the case then to keep everyone happy they'll need some bonny an big signs to fit all that in!!!!! :).
As an ulster scot where is my sign??????? I demand justice now!!! lol
And this is the real crux of my argument.
It's not really about whether Caithness is truly 'Norse' or not, that is an irrelevance in this discussion, it's about there being an overwhelming amount of evidence to say that one language and culture dominated a particular region.
I would love to see proper Scots/Doric signs and language spoken where it is overwhelmingly evident that this was the tongue and heritage of a given area.
No-one in their right mind would state that Gaelic shouldn't dominate in Sutherland or the Western Isles, but the case is different for Caithness.
I've said this before, and I'll repeat it here, I have a sneaking suspicion that there are some Gaelic 'evangelists' who would be happy to see Gaelic dominate the whole of Scotland at the expense of everyone else's culture and heritage.
.
weeboyagee
07-Apr-08, 19:38
Well Northerner - I was NEVER wanting to get to this. I don't just spout off on here without knowing a little of what I'm getting into at least - but Gaelic in Caithness is such a tabou that you have to be careful how you go about shedding a (lets say) different light on the matter. Since you asked for my evidence here it is, and my sincere apologies if you get bored half way through - but you sure as heck won't ask again - I hope!!!!
"Although Caithness has been regarded as the Lowlands beyond the Highlands recent research has shown that the western part of our county was part of the Gaidhealtachd for centuries." very learned scholar
"Caithness is known as the Lowlands beyond the Highlands" a very learned Cllr David Flear
The New Statistical Account for Scotland (1845), which incidentally MANY of our fellow Caithnessians refer to from time to time, stated "Gaelic is spoken only in the higher parts of the county; in the other parts, the inhabitants, comprising three quarters of the population, speak the ordinary language of the country, and their manners and habits are those of the lowland Scots".
Now,... I have referred to previously and to fellow folks in the office of An Comunn Gaidhealach that the greater part of the land-mass of our county was Gaelic speaking. the smaller part was English (formerly Norn) speaking. 75% of the landmass with 25% of the population. There's your first bit to chew on.
The rural communities west of Thurso and Wick retained their Gaelic speech right up until the 20th Century.
I recently cut out 2 articles (letters) in the local press where people were making representation about their descendents (2nd generation - not 10th or 12th or some other far distant geneology) who were indigenous Caithness Gaelic speakers - thats not just fact that's real evidence!
In the same account the language boundary between Gaelic and English is referred to. In the Parish of Latharan in 1840: "The Gaelic language is generally spoken by the lower class of people through the GREATER part of the parish". 1840!!! Still short enough ago to expect it to have been evident up until the turn of the last century - where's the argument "Caithness has never been a Gaelic speaking area"?????
And where was the reference to being the boundary? The burn of East Clyth! "On the east side of it (the burn) scarcely a word of Gaelic was either spoken or understood, and on the west side the English shared the same fate. Gaelic services were held at the Free Church at Bruan!
It is stated that the same division existed until the 1880's. It was only then that the Gaelic language started to take a huge dive in the south east of Caithness.
In 1881 the Gaelic language in the county took a HUGE knock and landed up with the percentage of the speaking population being in single figures. No surprise because of the derisory way it was treated. In 1878 a certain Mr Sime Esq, Inspector of Schools for Ross, Caithness and Sutherland commented "I should regard the teaching of Gaelic in schools in any shape or form as a most serious misfortune!"
In 1881, 45% of the district of Bearghdal (Berriedale) were still habitually speaking Gaelic.
The Registrar General of the 1911 census J Patten MacDougall suggested that the reason for the rapid shrinking of Gaelic speaking numbers census after census was as follows:
"Persons with knowledge of Gaelic in the County of Caithness are found to number 1,685 (WHAT - surely NOT - Caithness was NEVER a GAELIC speaking area!!! - or WAS IT???). (Wait for it....)... of these 1,248 were born in Caithness (WHAT - I can hardly stand the shock - 1,248), 273 in Sutherland (who let THEM in??? tsk, tsk,...) 77 in Ross and Cromarty and 87 elsewhere (blow me down - I'll bet they were from Orkney !!! - must of arrived in a canoe via the western isles before the Ola was built!!!) Of the 1,685 Gaelic speakers, all but three are returned as able to speak English in addition to Gaelic (now there's progress for you eh?)"
However, he also goes on to suggest "By an examination of the age distribution of the Gaelic speakers, it is found that only 22 of them are less than 20 years of age, which suggests that the Gaelic language cannot be in habitual use, for if such were the case large numbers of the younger generation would be found to have a knowledge of it".
...And thus the death nell for the Gaelic language in our county. I would suggest this is a dashed site more than a lot of the current Caithness population are aware of and now that they know it they will STILL be in denial because it flaws their whole argument about Caithness not being Gaelic speaking - for goodness sake they can't even say that it wasn't traditionally Gaelic speaking because it was for all that the tradition that we got rid of. Caithness wasn't fully Gaelic speaking but it certainly was Gaelic speaking right up to not that long ago! Eventually it finally died out just after 1931 with only 633 speakers acknowledged in the census. For the record - 48 speakers in the census of 1891 were monoglot Gaelic in Latheron!! Good for them!
You can even follow the movement of the Gaelic speakers from the country to the Town for a better living (Landward to Pultney) where the decrease in the landward area caused an increase in the Town (50 speakers up to 150+ in Pultney) at the end of the 19th century. Remember, we're not talking about West Coast Herring Industry here yet - we're talking indigenous Gaelic speakers - Caithnessians!!!!
You know what? It is even documented that Caithness is known for it's denial of a language that 25% of it's population spoke up until the end of the 19th Century - but hey - we're not the first in history to deny something which obviously happened - duly remarked on the Census between 1951 and 2001 - "The history of indifference and neglect was to repeat itself in East Sutherland in the coming decades - even worse: ignorance towards Gaelic prevailed in the "lowland county" of Caithness". And you wonder why some of us Caithnessians get stuck on the words of certain people promoting we are the Lowlands above the Highlands??? Why? Because it is the snobish rhetoric similar to that of Sime, the Inspector of Schools who would have the Gaelic ridiculed at the level of the education of our youth back in the days that saw it take it's place as a second class language not only in our county but in every other county that saw fit to clear the highlands and replace the Gaelic speakers with SHEEP!
Now - landmass - oh yes,.... right,... East of Clyth, burn and all that,... surely could be proved by the names of the places well, let's see:
Beinn Chàiteag (ND 131 470) - hill at the back of Camster Lodge (oh, and while we're at it - "Ceitag" - endearment for Kate - same as in Jessag, Jeemag - yip Caithness twang harking back to the Gaelic roots...!)
Cnoc an Earrannaiche (ND 242 417) - hill at back of Camster, area is THICK with Gaelic names - Loch Ruart, Lochan Thulachan, Loch Breac (speckled loch!) - all just south west of the Causwaymire just before the Lybster road-end at Achavanich (oh, let me see,...another Gaelic place name!)
Local people still refer to Clash - the hill at the back of Clyth just below the village where I stay - proper spelling - Clais (Gaelic) - what does it refer to? Clais na Canaich (Hill of Cannich) and several other references to Clais up the back of the hill there - including Clais Mòr (Mòr meaning big or large in Gaelic) and Clais Chaol (Chaol meaning narrow).
The burn of Acharole and Achairn burns both flow to the River Wick - both sources of water are from former Gaelic speaking areas at the back of Clyth/Camster.
Cnocan Conachreag (ND 114 365) - Creag meaning rock, referring to rocky hill - Hill at the back of Houstry.
Coire na Beinne (ND 151 400) also up the back of Houstry and between the old road that goes from Dunbeath up the the back of the Glutt lodge and out at Dalnawillan - where the road branches off and up to Allt na Breac (seen that word before "speckled"??) - all formerly Gaelic speaking areas of Caithness!!!
The Gaelic line carries on just as the Statistical Account describes - the line following the Causewaymire is as good a border as you need although Gaelic is very much on either side of it - Sguabag Ghorm Hill (Gorm meaning "Blue" in Gaelic) with the Allt (burn) Sguabaig Guirme (Gorm changes to Guirme because of a language rule but still means "blue"!!).
These areas all between Broubster and Shebster. Area also THICK with Gaelic names - Lochan Ealach, Cuil na Craoibhe (Craobh means a "Wood"), Blar na Craoibhe.
Even names like Achibegg are derived from Gaelic, Clais an Fhearchair - all up at the back of Calder.
In short John Murray's "Dialect of the Southern Counties of Scotland" (1873) suggested that "...the language boundary emerges from the North Sea at Clyth Ness...proceeds overland to Harpsdale, through Halkirk to the river Forss, which it follows to the sea...." The Gaelic speaking border formed by the Parishes Meaghrath (Reay), Hacraig (Halkirk) and Latharan (Latheron) - oh and by the way even John Horne, the well known Caithness bard refers to Halkirk by it's Gaelic name - and it is STILL referred to it's Gaelic name even today - in his poetry - where the "Hakreek fowk built an ayliss o' a fire and fairly warmed his worship" referring to the Bishop putting up the taxes/rents.......
And all this because we don't want billingual signs because Caithness was never a Gaelic speaking area. Why can't it just be that it's because the majority don't want it - because there is no truth in this Caithness was not traditionally Gaelic speaking - it WAS - more in the greater part of it than it was NORSE!
Right Northerner,.... do I get an A+ for that or are you gonna rip it to bits? The defence rests.
WBG :cool:
northener
07-Apr-08, 21:10
Excellent post WBG! I am suitably impressed. A+!
My point is that the Gaelic language does not have the same resonance, or relevance, in Caithness as it has elsewhere in other parts of Scotland.
I agree 100% with most of your comments, but:
I did say myself that the demarcation line is between Latheron and Thurso, no difference of opinion there then. You've given plenty of examples of Gaelic names to the West/South of the county, but I notice you've conveniently neglected the 'other' side......
You commented that Gaelic speakers took up 75% of the land mass and 25% of the population.
....hang on a minute, that means that 75% of the population don't have the Gaelic!
Sorry mate, but trying to hide the fact that only 25% of the population spoke Gaelic inside the fact that they were scattered across a larger geographical area is not really going to change the fact that they are still in a minority. - You aren't part of Mr Mugabe's election team by any chance, are you?:Razz
Your comments on Gaelic speakers in Wick are correct, the ones who spoke Gaelic who were from Caithness came from the Straths and the West of the county, not the East/north east of the County ('cos there weren't any).
Regarding Norse:
Place names speak volumes. The Norse language may only be echoes and odd words in the Caithness dialect ( it is still there), but place names are constant. The most populated regions of Caithness are predominantly North east/Eastern, these are the ones with 100% Norse geography.
Language by itself does not make culture. Culture is an almost intangible mix of language, landscape, trade, farming, legend, beliefs and people.
WBG, look at the family names of those in the most populated areas mentioned above. Have you noticed the almost complete lack of the Gaelic prefixes Mac and Mc?
These people are not Scots/Gaels who have let Gaelic fizzle out in their family lines, they never had the culture in the first place!
These are peoples who have come from the seas, from Scandanavia, Orkney, Shetland, the Eastern seaboard of Britain. Up until the C19th it was the only way to reach the east of the County. These people brought a different way of living, trading along the coasts all way around the Northern parts of Scotland.
Go to Sutherland and you will only find small memories of the Norse - such as Geo and Skerry, both Norse words. You won't find any Norse place names, because there weren't enough of them there to make a lasting impression - unlike Caithness.
Don't forget WBG, Caithness was part of the Norse Kingdoms up until around the C13th. A fact that many in the county will be very quick to remind you of.
So it's hardly suprising that there is a lot of resistance to having Gaelic signs foisted upon Caithness. Using the comments on threads relating to this subject as a Vox Pop, it appears to show an overwhelming majority saying 'No' to bi-lingual signs.
So, to summarise:
The larger portion of the indigenous population (75%) did not speak Gaelic, those who did were in a dwindling minority.
The (sizeable) minority that did speak Gaelic, were in the West and South of the county in areas that blur into Sutherland. Not the more populated regions to the North and East.
Caithness was under Norse control, law and customs until the Middle Ages.
The population of Caithness, in the most populated areas, is made up of surnames that are not Celtic/Gael.
The place names in the most populated areas are almost 100% Norse.
And, the real clincher in all of this WBG, is a little bit of Gaelic language.
The Gaelic for a native of Caithness is Golach, or Gallaibh.
I know that you know exactly what that means, WBG.
"Land of the non-Gaels";)
Damning evidence from the Gaels themselves......
.
Alice in Blunderland
08-Apr-08, 19:22
Shhheeesshh reading those last two posts has left me exhausted. :lol:
Shhheeesshh reading those last two posts has left me exhausted. :lol:
Me too Alice, I think I need to lie down in a darkend room to recover :roll:
Boozeburglar
08-Apr-08, 22:27
"Land of the non-Gaels"
That is something I have always found ironic; because Caithness is actually quite windy.
I guess all the tourists that come here on holiday will all think that caithness is full of people that speak gaelic. :roll:
cant they sort out the traffic light shambles first and the road surfaces.
Alice in Blunderland
09-Apr-08, 12:33
That is something I have always found ironic; because Caithness is actually quite windy.
Yip got to agree with you there a lot of hot wind at times :lol:
weeboyagee
10-Apr-08, 13:33
Good post Northerner, I expected no less. I don't disagree one bit with your WHOLE comment - now how surprising do you find that? I'm well aware of the fact that the top wee north eastern bit of the county was not Gaidhealach at all, well aware. Also, the fact that at the time of the census referred to the bulk of the population lived in Wick. Not a lot of the folk were landward no matter where in the county.
Now, take the fact that you go to the Isle of Lewis and the bulk of the Gaelic speakers are landward – a fair number of folk from the Isle of Lewis don’t have Gaelic and I know from when I am over there that the larger proportion of them are from the town – Stornoway.
My point is that Gaelic in our county was the same as even the most recognisably fluent of areas in that it was more dominant in the landward are and there was little use of it in the towns where the bulk of commerce and administration was undertaken in English.
If you take the percentage of Gaelic speakers against the non-Gaelic speakers of the landward area and exclude the huge percentage from Wick who were non-Gaelic speaking the percentage increases rather considerably.
I’m also well aware of the Norse history of our county - I presented a thesis whilst in Further Eductation when I was young(er!) all about the Viking and Norse heritage of our area.
Funnily enough though - let's look at your point about place names. You will agree that Caithness - the greater part of it – is Gaelic named - no doubt about that. The top part is Norse - ster, geo, vik, etc.
Let's look at the other areas that also have Gaelic and Norse now. My second homeland – the Isle of Lewis. Leurbost is the place where I stay – just south of Stornoway in Lochs – along with Crosbost, and all the other bosts, even over to the Isle of Skye. Gaelic name for Lybster – Liabost. “Bost” (Norse) amongst other terms including “Airigh” (Gaelic) meaning a sheiling are examples of words which we know were exchanged and adopted between the two cultures. (Vikings in the British Isles: The Place Name Evidence by Gillian Fellows-Jensen).
Trosk (well known Caithness term meaning a stupid person) comes from the shared word between Norwegian and Gaelic – meaning “Cod” in both languages – the Caithness term comes from the rather “stupid” look on the face of a Cod fish. Did you know that?
Thrumster – Thrum – bost-ster/buster, same with Camster, Rumster etc - homestead. The Norse and the Gaels are not one or t’other – they are absolutely together when it comes to the shaping of the Northlands, Highlands and Islands. To call Caithness a Lowland is ignorance – even if it is from the Caithness people themselves – they deny themselves their heritage. The dominance of the Northmen in centuries gone by included the Western Isles which hasn’t had the Gaelic kicked out of it. We refer to the MacLeods – Lewis/Harris and Skye. Mac – Leod? Who was Leod? – a descendant of the Norse Kings of Man and the Northern Isles. Probably (arguably) one of the most well known and oldest clans in Gaeldom.
Our history in Caithness is linked with the rest of the Highlands and Islands in the same manner yet we seek to separate ourselves when it so suits. Caithness is a unique place with unique people (evidenced in some of the pubs and clubs on a Friday night) and quite rightly wishes to be distinguished as such. However, there is an element that we should accept that we are part of the bigger picture of the Northlands, Highlands and Islands of Scotland – if the majority don’t want bilingual signs then I have no problem with that (I don’t believe I have said that yet again!) but we need to be sure of the argument when deciding our evidence against it – only 25% of the county may have spoken Gaelic at one time but it did have Gaelic and no-one who previously said that we have never been a Gaelic speaking area has come on here to say they were wrong – why?
Since a greater part of the north was Norse and Gaelic mingled together over the period of time, and without argument, helping to shape the whole culture of what is uniquely Highlands and Islands of Scotland – why do we care to separate ourselves in such a way from the other part of the cultural aspect of it – the Gaelic part? I’ll tell you why. a) we can’t understand it therefore we don’t want it, regardless of it’s place in the culture of the Highlands and b) we don’t care for Gaelic or Norse – unless of course we want bilingual signs in Gaelic then we are all (or most of us) all of a sudden 100% Norse.
You never here the Norse argument until someone mentions Gaelic. How about trying to engage and promote both since they are both very much linked to the history of the Highlands, of which Caithness is a part and which had it’s own distinct Gaelic culture – albeit 25%, but it had it – and the crux of this thread is the amount of people who didn’t even know that – until now!
I still say – if the majority don’t want bilingual signs then let it be because this is the desire of the majority – but don’t feed the masses untruths such as our county not being an area where Gaelic was spoken – this is simply untrue.
As for the damning evidence in the name Gallaibh – why is our nation called Scotland? A nation full of Scots (only)? Damning evidence that historically we were a nation full of Scots? Methinks not but nevertheless, that is the name for our Country! What’s in a name?
WBG :cool:
One good thing about this thread is that it made me go and read The Silver Darlings again, I'm now onto Consider the Lillies...........you know these things didn't happen all that long ago!
Amy-Winehouse
11-Apr-08, 17:25
I emailed that councillor , now I shall await his reply but Im not expecting one-Ive never heard anything so ridiculous for months. Garlic signs, sorry Gaelic , what is the point of this lingo?? Teuchter speak is no good anywhere else in the world .
The English had the right idea-Ban it!!
I emailed that councillor , now I shall await his reply but Im not expecting one-Ive never heard anything so ridiculous for months. Garlic signs, sorry Gaelic , what is the point of this lingo?? Teuchter speak is no good anywhere else in the world .
The English had the right idea-Ban it!!
Signs are for showing people how to get to their destination - it helps if they correspond with published maps. They do not need to be an expression of a lack of cultural confidence.
Signs are for showing people how to get to their destination - it helps if they correspond with published maps. They do not need to be an expression of a lack of cultural confidence.
Sorry Spurtle, but just to make sure I understand your point - are you saying that if gaelic is not included on the sign it reflects that there is lacking a cultural confidence in Caithness?
weeboyagee
15-Apr-08, 10:14
I emailed that councillor , now I shall await his reply but Im not expecting one-Ive never heard anything so ridiculous for months. Garlic signs, sorry Gaelic , what is the point of this lingo?? Teuchter speak is no good anywhere else in the world .
The English had the right idea-Ban it!!
Your sarcasm is not witty nor a sign of your ability to hold a decent intellegent discussion on this matter. Garlic, Teuchter-speak,.... and as for your idea that the English were right to ban it - should the Gaels be as corrective as to ban English from the Western Isles etc in the same respect and really screw it up for your "English".
There's been many a post on here about anti-English that's had a good boot up the backside from the admin - your "English right idea about an indigenous language of this country - BAN IT" - and you get away with a crack like that - ban the English language in the Gaelic speaking areas and screw your English good and proper - the one way to make damn sure they understand that which is beyond their comprehension in language - it's called two fingers!!!
Your post had little to do with billingual signs - you used it as an excuse to hurl an insult at those (within and outwith this county) whose first language is Gaelic.
By the way - are you from England - or are you just a supporter of their ability to wipe out a nation's culture in ancient times?
WBG :mad:
Sapphire2803
15-Apr-08, 13:38
Your sarcasm is not witty nor a sign of your ability to hold a decent intellegent discussion on this matter. Garlic, Teuchter-speak,.... and as for your idea that the English were right to ban it - should the Gaels be as corrective as to ban English from the Western Isles etc in the same respect and really screw it up for your "English".
There's been many a post on here about anti-English that's had a good boot up the backside from the admin - your "English right idea about an indigenous language of this country - BAN IT" - and you get away with a crack like that - ban the English language in the Gaelic speaking areas and screw your English good and proper - the one way to make damn sure they understand that which is beyond their comprehension in language - it's called two fingers!!!
Your post had little to do with billingual signs - you used it as an excuse to hurl an insult at those (within and outwith this county) whose first language is Gaelic.
By the way - are you from England - or are you just a supporter of their ability to wipe out a nation's culture in ancient times?
WBG :mad:
Well said! Especially the last bit. I would've given you a good rep, but apparently I need to share it around first :roll:
Boozeburglar
15-Apr-08, 13:54
Teuchter speak is no good anywhere else in the world
Your name sake has about as much use for English as you do for the Gaelic, judging by her incoherent ramblings. Perhaps you could expand on your argument a tad; giving us the background to your views?
Otherwise I may deduce that other things induce your apoplexy.
Perhaps the London borough signs proclaiming "Nuclear Free Zone"?
Now they ARE needless.
;)
Why such irrational hatred against Gaelic sign-posting, talk about vandalising them is the thought process of a very immature mind with not one iota of reason about why they would feel the need to carry out such an act if in fact they would, and are not as I suspect just full of wind.
I don’t think that there is an irrational hatred of Gaelic signs. I think it is a very rational response to Gaelic signs being positioned in a place with insignificant Gaelic culture, tradition or speakers. A wee Google will inform you that Gaelic for Caithness is Gallaibh, which translates as Land of the Gall (non-Gael) – so why the need for the centralized council in Inverness to impose Gaelic signs on those who don’t want them.
I fully respect the fight to maintain and advance the Gaelic language amongst those communities with a tradition and history of Gaelic, but I disagree fundamentally in it being imposed on communities with no tradition or history of gaelic.
I am also not adverse to a bit of direct action, so lets just wait and see if I contribute to climate change.
;)
Amy-Winehouse
15-Apr-08, 18:39
Gaelic signs, what is the need for them in a non Gaelic speaking community as Caithness????
None in my opinion, they havnt been in Caithness before have they? So why are they needed now?
The majority would rather the money was spent on something worthwhile such as child welfare(they are the future, whereas Gaelic is somewhat in the past) community care, 20`s plenty signs-now thats a Good idea:) Stopping speedy drivers instead of gaelic which pretty much confuses drivers if you miss the English version!!!
There are services being closed down in the Highlands regularly , so why is it that the council wish to spend money on signs that are obviously unneeded or wanted?? BTW how much are they propsing to squander on these signs? How many of these signs are they making?
Sapphire2803
15-Apr-08, 18:50
whereas Gaelic is somewhat in the past
That's kinda the whole point... It isn't and nor should it be.
Whether or not it ends up on the signs, the language should not be allowed to die.
Anyway, I thought they were only talking about putting gaelic on the signs, as and when they needed replacing.
Do you find yourself terribly confused driving through Sutherland?
No, because the gaelic (where present) is in a smaller font underneath the english bit.
I'm sure there are plenty of good reasons for not wanting gaelic on the road signs, but your reasons are just ignorant and insulting.
ywindythesecond
15-Apr-08, 22:09
Caithness doesn't generally seem to want Gaelic Road Signs.
The principal point to be made is that Councillors are the Servants of the people, not the Masters of the people, and they would do well to remember this.
Amy-Winehouse
16-Apr-08, 08:02
That's kinda the whole point... It isn't and nor should it be.
Whether or not it ends up on the signs, the language should not be allowed to die.
Anyway, I thought they were only talking about putting gaelic on the signs, as and when they needed replacing.
Do you find yourself terribly confused driving through Sutherland?
No, because the gaelic (where present) is in a smaller font underneath the english bit.
I'm sure there are plenty of good reasons for not wanting gaelic on the road signs, but your reasons are just ignorant and insulting.
Okay then , on the west coast of Scotland there are a few speakers of the the language but in Caithness there are not- Why dont we have the signs half English half Polish?? There are more Poles up here than Gaels now but I dont hear a clamour for them?
WBG, How many people do you know in Caithness that actually speak Gaelic?? I know you do & you go to the Mod, can you give us an accurate total please?
My reasons are not insulting, needs must, the money should be spent on something a bit more worthwhile. Public opinion doesnt lie- Caithness doesnt want Bi-lingual signs.
Sapphire2803
16-Apr-08, 08:40
Personally, I can't se the harm in Gaelic on the signs, but only for the places which originally had Gaelic names. Wick and Thurso etc are norse names, so leave them be. There are a lot of places in Caithness which were originally named in Gaelic, it's a good way of preserving the history, for people to see. Also, everyone complains that we don't get the tourists here, this is another example of something which adds to the charm, something tourists like.
I've seen a couple of threads about attracting tourism here, but all anyone seems to do is mouth off about all the things that could be done, they then sit back and wait for someone else to do it, when someone does try something, everyone is against it.
The vikings also reached Ireland, if you go to Dublin you will see places whose names were originally norse, you will also find plenty of information about the norse history, but any place name which was originally Irish is repeated on the road signs in Irish. The speaking of Irish was banned by the English, but now they promote the learning of it, because it was in danger of dying out. There are words in gaelic which either came from norse or are the same as norse.
I definitely think that a comprimise could be found on this issue and I really don't understand why so many folk are so set against admitting that there was ever gaelic spoken in this county. :confused
weeboyagee
16-Apr-08, 13:56
Just for a wee bit of information - on the road signage (Ross and Cromarty on the road to Ullapool, Argyllshire Ballachullish to Oban etc) Gaelic is the first language and the English is underneath it. Gaelic is in Gold and English is in White. You arrive at the roundabout at Tore from Dingwall and there are 4 exits with Gaelic and English place names. If you want English you look at the white place names. Where's the confusion in that? Then I hear that it takes too much time to decipher the amount of info on boards - well look at the time that it takes further south to read a roadsign that has 5 exits from a roundabout and you have 200 yds or less to prepare for it - no Gaelic - just lots of information - your brain quickly reads that which it needs to look at and disgaurds the rest in a matter of seconds - same with any roadsign with any information. The only way a road user is going to be confused is if he/she is thick, colour-blind or both!
If Amy-Winehouse reads the previous pages of this thread they will see that the argument against not having billingual signs is NOT a funding issue - understand? - NOT a funding issue. Needs must? Needs must what?
ywindythesecond has it in a nutshell - folk in Caithness generally don't want billingual signs in the majority and that's the only argument there is - not one of history and no Gaelic language having been spoken in the county - that's simply untrue, nor is it one of funding either - replacement or brand new signage required and the token additional cost for space for the billingual changes.
Now,..... yawn,....... Amy-whinehouse (two can play at sarcasm) - why don't you get into the research of the amount of Gaelic speakers in Caithness yourself instead of asking me to do it? The census is available - but you will realise that the amount of Gaelic speakers in the Highlands is not enough in itself to justify the billingual signage. Billingual signage has absolutely NOTHING to do with the amount of speakers of the language. It is the policy of the Highland Council as required by the Gaelic Act (the policy is required, not the billingual signage). Part of the policy of the Highland Council is that new and replacement roadsigns are to be billingual.
I noted the article in the Scotland on Sunday, 16th March 2008 - "Mòd 2010: A bheil iad gar n-iarraidh no nach eil?" Mòd 2010 - Do they want us or don't they? with reference to the Caithness Councillors wanting the Mod in real terms or not. Fine fowk we are but we don't care much for how we are seen from the ootside-in only to moan from the inside-oot!!!
The comment about more Poles than Gaels in Caithness - what a joke - totally irrelevant - but then again you know that don't you - grabbing at straws comes to mind - especially when I don't see all the roadsigns in Manchester in the various Asian languages which somehow methinks would be justified in the same manner.
WBG :cool:
weeboyagee
16-Jun-08, 10:00
There is a meeting of the local branch of An Comunn Gaidhealach being held Tuesday night, 17th June in the Pentland Hotel, Thurso at 7.30pm. The agenda will include representation being made by the President of An Comunn Gaidhealach and the meeting will try and address the balance in promoting Gaelic within the local community and the issue regarding bilingual signs. Everyone is welcome to come along. Some of the councillors who are not involved in Ward meetings will be there.
See you there.
WBG :cool:
Just for the non-Gaelic speakers who feel tempted to go to this meeting but not sure who these folk are, I googled "An Comunn Gàidhealach" to find out it means in English - this is cut and pasted from their website:
"An Comunn Gàidhealach is a voluntary membership organisation, with charitable status, founded in Oban in 1891 as a vehicle for the preservation and development of the Gaelic language. It actively encourages the teaching, learning and use of the Gaelic language and the study and cultivation of Gaelic literature, history, music and art."
I still don't know what their title means(!) but they seem friendly enough & I'd encourage all you passionate anti-Gaelic-roadsigners to go along to the meeting with an open mind and an air of friendly negotiation...
Everyone agrees that almostall Caithnessians do not want their local roadsigns in Gaelic - even WBG knows that! But I, for one, love hearing their beautiful Gaelic music & I'm looking forward to the positive influence of the Mod 2010, both in terms of welcoming new visitors (and their money!) to the county and in terms of being inspired by a cultural influence which is almost entirely new to me.
That said, I'm not actually prepared to pay the price of having to look at Gaelic roadsigns for the rest of my life in payment for the once in a lifetime opportunity of hosting the Mod...:roll:
Here's hoping some compromise and understanding may be gained from this meeting - see you there, WBG!:D
Invisible
16-Jun-08, 12:18
I guess all the tourists that come here on holiday will all think that caithness is full of people that speak gaelic. :roll:
cant they sort out the traffic light shambles first and the road surfaces.
Agree entirely with what your saying.
But I am not against the signs.
weeboyagee
16-Jun-08, 13:29
An Comunn Gaidhealach - the Association of Highlanders
See you there tootler!
WBG :cool:
weeboyagee
16-Jun-08, 13:30
But I am not against the signs.
The voice of youth is sometimes the most intelligent! :D
WBG :cool:
How will implementation of this policy effect road maps of the county?
The Caithness map is going to be overcrowded as the list of places listed suddenly doubles.
So is the Ordinance Survey going to produce a bilingual map?
Or a Gaelic only map?
Or a Norn map? (That would make it trilingual!) This is probably a question for the whole Highland region. But why stop there! In the 11th century all of Scotland outside Edinburgh Castle spoke Gaelic...or Norman French, or Anglo-Saxon.
If you are a tourist you pay your money and take your choice.
Incerasingly it seems to me that the state of Caithness is a state of mind.....
weeboyagee
17-Jun-08, 10:24
How will implementation of this policy effect road maps of the county?
The Caithness map is going to be overcrowded as the list of places listed suddenly doubles.
So is the Ordinance Survey going to produce a bilingual map?
Or a Gaelic only map?
Or a Norn map? (That would make it trilingual!) This is probably a question for the whole Highland region. But why stop there! In the 11th century all of Scotland outside Edinburgh Castle spoke Gaelic...or Norman French, or Anglo-Saxon.
If you are a tourist you pay your money and take your choice.
Incerasingly it seems to me that the state of Caithness is a state of mind.....
I was looking at this last night actually Rich, it is very interesting the history of Scotland and it's languages back at the turn of the 1st century.
Road maps wouldn't be affected - I can't think of one single reason to have them bilingual in the context you mention. After all, maps are available with Gaelic rather than English titles - I have one hanging in my kitchen! However, a lot of place names are Gaelic in Caithness where no English translation is used - check your ordnance survey map and my previous posts in this thread - they are not translated into English. So it kind of defeats the argument to have the common English language names translated into Gaelic by the same merit.
The idea of the tourist paying their money and taking their choice is fine. The idea of enhancing the image to make more tourists have a greater experience and increasing the potential is what the general desired effect is here.
Caithness - a state of mind? Most likely it is - but the mind-set of those living in it and their understanding of the concept behind it's marketing potential may well be different from the mind-set of the greater area it is part of and the overall marketing potential in it's entirety.
WBG :cool:
Incerasingly it seems to me that the state of Caithness is a state of mind.....
I've noticed that, too, Rich - thank goodness for Caithness.org - it's the only thing left that preserves our true cultural identity as a county - diverse & beautiful.
weeboyagee
17-Jun-08, 13:48
thank goodness for Caithness.org - it's the only thing left that preserves our true cultural identity as a county - diverse & beautiful.
:eek: You gotta be joking? I think the bulk of the folk in the county couldn't care less about what goes on around about their ears - the rest of us get on caithness.org, land up in the papers, end up rather vocal (yip - including me!) but the majority are, I am sure, a silent one. Bilingual signs? I don't think there are many that would care one way or the other! Diverse and beautiful maybe, vocal - definitely not - unless of course they are going to close the local nursery ;)
WBG :cool:
weeboyagee
17-Jun-08, 14:01
Another reminder - Pentland Hotel, tonight (Tuesday 17th June), 7.30pm.
Aim of the meeting is to get a better understanding of what is best for the county and how it is seen by others outside the community. The following article is in Gaelic but I can assure you calls the ideals of the bilingual signage into question over the awarding of the Mod in 2010 to the county. Others outwith our county most definitely have a difficulty in seperating the issue of bilingual signage from the rest of the Gaelic activity which is supported by all our community and Councillors. Hopefully we can let them see that there is more unity than they think!
There is a summary in English at the bottom of the article.
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/gaelic/Md-2010--is-ionghantach.4186896.jp
WBG :cool:
:eek: You gotta be joking? I think the bulk of the folk in the county couldn't care less about what goes on around about their ears - the rest of us get on caithness.org, land up in the papers, end up rather vocal (yip - including me!) but the majority are, I am sure, a silent one. Bilingual signs? I don't think there are many that would care one way or the other! Diverse and beautiful maybe, vocal - definitely not - unless of course they are going to close the local nursery
WBG
Aw, WeeBoyagee, you disappoint me!
Your doing the population of Caithness a big dis-service by imagining they don't care. They do. Just because they care quietly doesn't mean they don't have an opinion.
And I was talking about the whole of caithness.org, not just the forums - have a look at the arts, sports & heritage sections of the site and you'll find there are literally hundreds of societies of folk living here with their special interests. Most folk have something special that they love to do. The difference is, they don't inflict their specialist interests on you, the way The Highland Council (Inverness) inflicts your specialist interests on us!;)
Won't foreign visitors find the bilingual signs confusing? I mean it would be most infuriating if they were looking for a place in their atlas and it was spelt in gaelic.
ywindythesecond
17-Jun-08, 19:34
Personally, I can't se the harm in Gaelic on the signs, but only for the places which originally had Gaelic names. Wick and Thurso etc are norse names, so leave them be. There are a lot of places in Caithness which were originally named in Gaelic, it's a good way of preserving the history, for people to see. Also, everyone complains that we don't get the tourists here, this is another example of something which adds to the charm, something tourists like.
I've seen a couple of threads about attracting tourism here, but all anyone seems to do is mouth off about all the things that could be done, they then sit back and wait for someone else to do it, when someone does try something, everyone is against it.
The vikings also reached Ireland, if you go to Dublin you will see places whose names were originally norse, you will also find plenty of information about the norse history, but any place name which was originally Irish is repeated on the road signs in Irish. The speaking of Irish was banned by the English, but now they promote the learning of it, because it was in danger of dying out. There are words in gaelic which either came from norse or are the same as norse.
I definitely think that a comprimise could be found on this issue and I really don't understand why so many folk are so set against admitting that there was ever gaelic spoken in this county. :confused
I was in Stornoway last month for the second time in my life. The first time was at least 20 years ago on business. I flew into Stornoway airport, hired a car and drove away. I soon came to a T junction where the sign was in Gaelic, and I did not know which way to turn. On my last visit, signs were dual Gaelic and English.
About ten years ago, I worked in South Wales for a while. I noticed that as you drove into Wales, there were dual language signs, English on top. At some point on the road into Wales the signs changed to Welsh on top.
The message I take from this is that road signs should inform road users, and the language used should be firstly what is spoken locally. Gaelic is strong in the Outer Isles and Welsh is strong in many parts of Wales.
In Wales the Welsh and English names are more often than not written the same. Gaelic and English names are rarely the same unless it is simply a phoenetic version. In Wales and the Outer Isles the indigenous population is generally comfortable with names in English or Gaelic, but the need to inform strangers where they are has led to the need for bilingual signs. In Caithness the entire population is comfortable with English language signs and the addition of a language not commonly used by the local population or the vast majority of visitors to the county adds no value.
I applaud and support the advancement of the Gaelic language and deplore the wasted resource put into road signs when the funds could achieve much better results used in a wiser and more targetted way.
It is perfectly logical to support the language, welcome the Mod, and oppose Gaelic Road signs. A road sign which does not inform the vast majority of those who see it has no practical purpose.
I doubt if there is a single person alive and driving in Highland with only Gaelic. So they benefit nobody.
AfternoonDelight
18-Jun-08, 15:36
I have deliberately kept out of this debate so far, both in real life and on the Org - I felt I did not have enough knowledge about the subject. Seems like everyone else is having their tuppenny bit though...
Not everyone in the county is opposed to the Gaelic signs. I have thought this over long and hard and I believe they will be a good thing for the county.
People have been saying stuff like -"there has never been Gaelic spoken in Caithness" - this is untrue and irrelevant - or - "our heritage is Norse" yes - any history book will tell you that.
We are also part of a beautiful land called Scotland, which has a rich history, one which includes many versions of language, dialect, regional accent etc. But the Gaelic was once taken away from us, banned, never to be spoken again, replaced by English which we now all speak and (most of us) understand. Now we have a government that is willing to stand up for us and wants in part to try and reinstate a sense of identity to Scotland.
The hope is that people will see the signs everyday and eventually understand them, will then want to go on and learn a little bit more of the language, will introduce it to their children, a little by little Scotland will become that magical place where that magical language is spoken and not shunned. The tourists will love it - it will show a sense of togetherness with the rest of the country and bring a bit of culture to otherwise boring bits of metal and plastic.
Do we really want to separate ourselves from the rest of our country in this way? I understand the arguement about the money, but the signs will be replaced only when needed and the overall cost will not be much more.
I think this is not so much an issue about Gaelic on roadsigns but an opposition to being told what to do by people a hundred miles away. Caithness is a county of Scotland, let's be proud of that instead of trying to fight against it.
Now and again on this thread the statement will be made that the English somehow banned Gaelic, both here and in Ireland.
Yet everything I have ever read on the subject says that the Gaels gave up speaking their language in order to "get on" in the world.
This may sound like Anglo propaganda but the historical evidence seems to support it. And, indeed this is the way languages become lost.
I know a little about the Irish case in the 19th century. Gaelic was literally belted out of the hides of Irish schoolkids by the Catholic church and the Christian brothers - and the parents cheered them on.
The fact that Irish Gaelic survived has much to do with the linguistic activism of the Protestant ruling class in the early 20th century when the likes of James Synge and Liam O Flaherty created special private Gaelic only schools for kids and also trips to the West Coast and the Aran Islands where they could meet and converse in Irish with the natives.
They also favored changing signs!
(These activities earned them the lifelong scorn of some other Protestants who thought the whole thing was nionsense - Sean O Casey, George Bernard Shaw and, from the Catholic side, James Joyce.)
But the extraordinary thing is that in the 1840s Dublin was an English rock surrounded by an ever-rising tide of Irish. By the 1880s - 40 years later, the language was nearly gone. That's what famine and emigration will do as people adapt to the larger world and its ways.
In a Scottish context, Hugh Millar's book of autobiography shows just how startlingly different the Gaelic world was. And my impression from reading him is that most of the east coast north of inverness had a substantial number of Gaelic speakers.
My own opinion is that much trade and business (such as it was at that time) was conducted by English speakers in boats. We need to remember that in the 19th century sea travel was a lot quicker and more convenient than hiking overland.
Well, enough of this. I am going to have a nap.
weeboyagee
19-Jun-08, 10:19
Now and again on this thread the statement will be made that the English somehow banned Gaelic, both here and in Ireland.
Yet everything I have ever read on the subject says that the Gaels gave up speaking their language in order to "get on" in the world.
This may sound like Anglo propaganda but the historical evidence seems to support it. And, indeed this is the way languages become lost.
Don't think you're correct there by any manner of means Rich my friend. Two things killed our language - the prohibition act that came out after Culloden banned the language from being used. The "English" parliament banned it and their supporters enforced it. Further to this, the Education act in the 1870's REALLY put paid to it. Education was to be taught in English, Gaelic was to be out on it's ear and they BELTED it out of the kids here - never mind Ireland! The parents stopped speaking it in front of their children because they new the hell their kids would be put through in the school should they speak it. THAT'S what killed Gaelic. The act was repealled in the early 1900's but it was too late by then. You're idea that the Gael's gave up speaking their language is partly true but look at the reason and you can see what they were trying to avoid! Gael's themselves ended up thinking that their language was a second class one not because they believed it in the first place - moreover the indoctrination of their society by the law of the land - clever eh? More like Stalinism and Marxism if you asked me.
WBG :cool:
More like Stalinism and Marxism if you asked me.
WBG :cool:
yeah, we should send 'em to the salt mines in Cheshire! That should put paid to those pesky Gaelic speakers!!:)
weeboyagee
19-Jun-08, 11:39
yeah, we should send 'em to the salt mines in Cheshire! That should put paid to those pesky Gaelic speakers!!:)
And when I saw you the other day outside the Reay Hall I thought you were joining the Bass section of the Gaelic Choir Rheggers ma boy! :D Surely NOT the salt mines - think of the thirst - all the more need for the Uisge Beatha!
WBG :cool:
Won't foreign visitors find the bilingual signs confusing? I mean it would be most infuriating if they were looking for a place in their atlas and it was spelt in gaelic.
It will be in English aswell, it wont be too hard for them to find their way about.
Weeboyagie we are in substantial agreement (Much as I hate agreeing with anyone).
The laws against gaelic dress etc were never rigorously enforced. They were like the penal laws in Ireland or the crime bills in England which had hundreds of laws, breaches of which were punishable by hanging. Juries and even judges were extremely reluctant to impose these draconian punishments
Pack 'em off to Australia instead!
An interesting question is when was the last public execution in Caithness?
(Don't say it will be when you come home, Rich...)
I didn't realize until today that not only will road signs be bilingual but street signs will also have a Gaelic version of the name added. A friend who lives in a new street has been told the sign can't go up until they find someone to translate the name into Gaelic.
A lot of street names won't have a Gaelic equivalent so what happens then?
Maybe the council could employ someone to make them up! Then they could tell us that Gaelic was boosting employment.
Kevin Milkins
21-Jun-08, 21:40
Its a good thread this because it has a mixture of passion about identity,mixed with a need to get about .I enjoyed what ywindythesecond had to say ( a name that sounds it could be a village next to Ystred Mynach lol )A balance is called for.
If I was caught eating an apple while driving there is a good chance I may get booked for driving while not being in control of my car.
If I was driving through Ystred Mynach and a large sign painted in the road said ARAF followed by SLOW and I shunted the car in front up the arse because I was busy trying to make sense of the road signs I wonder what the charge would be .
The point being , I could live with the logic of not eating and driving ,but trying to get about is hard enough at the best of times without spending large amounts of cash to make it harder.:confused
ywindythesecond
24-Jun-08, 21:25
If I was driving through Ystred Mynach and a large sign painted in the road said ARAF followed by SLOW and I shunted the car in front up the arse because I was busy trying to make sense of the road signs I wonder what the charge would be .
Kevin’s post reminded me that about three weeks after I arrived in South Wales, I was talking to a welsh subcontractor foreman who spoke very quickly. I said to him "ARAFWCH NAWR ". He looked at me in astonishment and said, obviously knowing that my wife had not yet joined me, "So who's been teaching you Welsh boyo?" It was of course the road signs which conveniently gave the English translation as " Slow down now".
Not so the signs we have. Beauly becomes something to do with monks. Dingwall becomes The Mouth of the River Peffer. Bettyhill becomes something like The Dun Coloured Field. There are many more examples of the proposed Gaelic name being unrelated to the English version.
What purpose do Gaelic signs serve outwith natural Gaelic speaking areas? Does it convey travel information? Does it educate? Does it make it easier for strangers to navigate the land? I see the point of Gaelic being introduced on road signs as you travel into a Gaelic speaking area, because you will arrive in a Gaelic speaking area.
When you arrive in Caithness, you arrive in an English speaking area. Welsh language signs would impart as much benefit to the resident of Caithness, or the tourist.
I say again, I support the furtherance of the Gaelic language, and the Mod in Caithness, but these have nothing to do with my objections. I deplore wasting money for dogma, and I deplore Highland Council’s attempts to impose something on an area which neither needs or wants it.
Think the bilingual signs are an absolute waste of money considering we have a School thats falling apart for starters.
Cant see the point in having gaelic signs.It was probably an idea of some English councillor who was bored saving the planet so thought he would save us instead!
Spend the money on something useful on our kids education etc after all that would do more good than putting that names that you cant pronounce without sounding like your gonna grog on someones face ;)
As I am an Ulster scot I would like the signs to have my language on it or I will cry all the way to the Human rights as I am being discriminated against!!!!! ;)
Can't see that it makes a lot of difference, myself.
I was under the impression that when the signs were due to be replaced, they would have the Gaelic placenames added.......not that there was to be a wholesale and expensive digging one out and putting another in all over the Highlands.
So everyone who doesn't want Gaelic on Caithness signs...........make sure your offspring don't deface them and make it necessary to have to replace them.
Or is that too obvious?
So everyone who doesn't want Gaelic on Caithness signs...........make sure your offspring don't deface them and make it necessary to have to replace them.
Or is that too obvious?
Most people in Caithness don't want Gaelic on their signs - the last statistic I heard was from Councillor Smith who reckons 85% of his constituents don't want them. (Among my friends, the percentage is much higher than that.)
My understanding is that it will not be children but very angry adults who might deface signs, and, no matter how neatly they plan to do it, this is obviously an unacceptable situation to be avoided at all costs.
There are many older people who've lived in Caithness for generations and have never heard a word of Gaelic spoken here. There is a large corner of the county (the heavily populated bit) where Gaelic was only ever the language of visitors - like German or French is now. They will not tolerate Gaelic on their signposts & I don't blame them for that.
The Gaels didn't like it when English was forced upon them and their signposts out in the Western Isles - you'd think they'd know better now than to force Gaelic signage upon a non-Gaelic speaking cosmopolitan community like Caithness.:roll:
How about Inverness folk leave our Caithness signs in English, just because that's what most local people want, or is that too obvious?!:lol:
If anyone knows how to set up a poll, I'd be interested to see the .org voters' statistics on this issue?
Apologies for misinformation, I just read in the Courier that they have an online vote about this (it's well hidden about halfway down the right hand column of the following link-page)
http://www.johnogroat-journal.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/4767/'Zealots'_blamed_for_Caithness_signs_controversy.h tml
and when I just looked, blow-me-down-with-a-feather, there are more people voting for bilingual signs than against!!
Well, what's happened there, then? Maybe lots of votes from the online Gaelic community outwith Caithness? :confused
Maybe this thread has just been horribly biased - all the Gaelic supporters must obviously read the Groat website and not so many input to this one?
Or maybe all my friends are just very strange... (sorry, guys!);)
Anyway, get clicking and vote away - I'd love to see a result on that poll that I can actually believe represents the opinion of the people of Caithness - it's a bit hard to make the sums add up just now, even for WBG!!!
Most people in Caithness don't want Gaelic on their signs - the last statistic I heard was from Councillor Smith who reckons 85% of his constituents don't want them. (Among my friends, the percentage is much higher than that.)
My understanding is that it will not be children but very angry adults who might deface signs, and, no matter how neatly they plan to do it, this is obviously an unacceptable situation to be avoided at all costs.
There are many older people who've lived in Caithness for generations and have never heard a word of Gaelic spoken here. There is a large corner of the county (the heavily populated bit) where Gaelic was only ever the language of visitors - like German or French is now. They will not tolerate Gaelic on their signposts & I don't blame them for that.
The Gaels didn't like it when English was forced upon them and their signposts out in the Western Isles - you'd think they'd know better now than to force Gaelic signage upon a non-Gaelic speaking cosmopolitan community like Caithness.:roll:
How about Inverness folk leave our Caithness signs in English, just because that's what most local people want, or is that too obvious?!:lol:
If anyone knows how to set up a poll, I'd be interested to see the .org voters' statistics on this issue?
I have copies of census forms for members of my family tree..........and I was pleasantly surprised at the number of them who had Gaelic and English, in those censuses which actually recorded the fact.....................and all Caithness natives.
I still don't see any problem with bi-lingual signs when they come to be replaced......and am inclined to think that those who object simply don't want to think of themselves as Scottish but as a hive-off from Orkney.
I'd be more than happy to have bi-lingual signs in every part of Scotland............if not Gaelic, then Doric or whatever.
The anti bi-lingual signs movement smacks more of anti-highland council than anti-gaelic.
I'm pretty sure that there are much more important reasons to be calling the Highland Council to account in Caithness........given what I have read about them on here.
Strikes me that it appears to be easier to get uptight about something which doesn't actually matter in the scheme of things than do anything about stuff that does........like the state of Wick High School. :confused
weeboyagee
26-Jun-08, 08:30
Apologies for misinformation, I just read in the Courier that they have an online vote about this (it's well hidden about halfway down the right hand column of the following link-page)
http://www.johnogroat-journal.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/4767/'Zealots'_blamed_for_Caithness_signs_controversy.h tml
and when I just looked, blow-me-down-with-a-feather, there are more people voting for bilingual signs than against!!
Well, what's happened there, then? Maybe lots of votes from the online Gaelic community outwith Caithness?
Maybe this thread has just been horribly biased - all the Gaelic supporters must obviously read the Groat website and not so many input to this one?
Or maybe all my friends are just very strange... (sorry, guys!);)
Anyway, get clicking and vote away - I'd love to see a result on that poll that I can actually believe represents the opinion of the people of Caithness - it's a bit hard to make the sums add up just now, even for WBG!!!
Nah - I knew the poll was there and saw it a while ago and also noted that most are pro bilingual signage. You just don't want to accept that. And who's to say that a lot of those on this thread apart from your good self tootler who are not in favour of bilingual signage are not from outwith the county anyway?
You just don't like what you see and read - and further more - outwith this county and posting in favour of the bilingual signage should make us undertake an even more thorough self examination - it is the outward looking in that we are trying to impress and attract to the county - you and your friends need to get a grip with this.
I cut out all the local paper clippings last night gathered since this whole debate arose back in March at the time of the vote and it's absolutely terrible - shocking - those mumping their gums off about it are one or two like yourself. The vote was taken - you lost - now concentrate on more effort into that which is still to be won for Caithness eh?
And I hear that the trunk roads being governed by the Scottish Executive and not the Highland Council are not going to be bilingual - hence the English only new signs at the Ord. So what is the big hoo-haa about - some Gaelic being on signs at visitor attractions for visitors to the county - on a walk up the riverside in Wick - but not on the roads - this whole discussion is starting to have even less merit if there ever was merit in the first place. Your friends tootler maybe a different lot right enough - one or two of mine don't want bilingual signage - the rest couldn't care and think the debate isn't worth the breath!
Live long and prosper tootler - time to give up the ghost on this one! :D
WBG :cool:
Live long and prosper tootler - time to give up the ghost on this one!
WBG
You have your head firmly in the sand, my friend!
Your Gael-friends from the south who have contaminated this "local" poll are just adding fuel to the Caithness fire, can't you see that?
This mis-representation of Caithness opinion is going to antagonise those that are already "humphing" even more!!
Our local community councillors are 100% agreed on this issue. They truly represent the man on the street. 80% of our local Highland Councillors are prepared to admit that they know the score, too.
Look again, WBG, at the letters that have been in the paper in support of the Gaelic on signs - what percentage of them are from Caithness addresses? Very few indeed. Look at the letters against - hmmm... all Caithness? What a surprise!
Pretending things are other than they really are is a BIG mistake on your part. It is you that is in denial on this one, and sadly it's your event that will suffer if we have to keep harping on about it. The easiest way to rid yourself of this albatross would be to face up to the local facts and tell those facts clearly to the Gaelic committee of the HC - otherwise this will go on & on & on....right to the unpleasant end. None of us want that.
I'm no activist on this issue - the real activists are quietly plotting in the pubs & just waiting for the first signs to go up - & they're not nearly as friendly, polite or law-abiding as I am when they talk about this issue. You are right about one thing - for them it's not a big issue & not worth arguing about - they wait till the signs go up, they get rid of the Gaelic on them. Simple.
I'm just the messenger, WBG, shoot me if you like!:roll:
I'll not waste any more breath on this thread - it's your problem, WBG, not mine, but if I was you I'd be taking action now to support your local community instead of ignoring them!
Good luck, my friend!;)
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