View Full Version : Scottish History
I live here and my kids are growing up here so can any help me with this....I am trying to find the best place to get common knowledge of scottish history and the whys whens and reasons behind things...I am interested as i see in only fair to understand why alot of scots want independence and why england had no right in coming here and making demands...Links would be aoppreciated with some knowledgeable comments would be great...This is so i can answer some of my kids questions.....I owe it to them to be able to answer there questions...Thanks
Metalattakk
04-Mar-08, 12:54
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_history
A simple base to start from.
cheers for that..Will print it off and let the kids read it.after me and then if tehey quiery anyof it atleast i can answer..I have no first hand knowledge of its past and it is good to know.....Thanks
ciderally
04-Mar-08, 13:06
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances
try this one as well ...about how the english cleared the highlands rounded up the folks and sent them to america ect..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances)
try this one as well ...about how the english cleared the highlands rounded up the folks and sent them to america ect..
Yes and that was about as inhumanitarian as it goes. No-one has the right to do that to any other....
Thanks ma and ciderally, got my reading for the night....
ciderally
04-Mar-08, 14:19
have the kids watched braveheart...i know its not correct history, not far off the mark..but the sentement runs in the blood of every scot ...like the song flower of scotland...have fun xx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances
try this one as well ...about how the english cleared the highlands rounded up the folks and sent them to america ect..
That's funny.....I read no mention that it was the English that did that. Be careful you don't rewrite history.....
That's funny.....I read no mention that it was the English that did that. Be careful you don't rewrite history.....The Duke of Sutherland was English.:p
The Duke of Sutherland was English.:p
Did he represent the English all by himself with respect to the whole of the clearances or was there others involved?
There was Italians on the HMS Victory but I wouldn't say it was the Italians that won the Battle of Trafalgar.
Did he represent the English all by himself with respect to the whole of the clearances or was there others involved?He never bloodied his hands apparently relying on some help from a few treacherous Scots.
Shabbychic
04-Mar-08, 15:35
Try ElectricScotland (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.electricscotland.com/) and you'll find probably everything you want to know about Scotland.
Cheers for the info.....might confuse the kids if i start with the debate..but will be reading the great info recieved...
Try ElectricScotland (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.electricscotland.com/) and you'll find probably everything you want to know about Scotland.
That is a very good site, and has many good links to other Scots related web sites
ciderally
04-Mar-08, 16:00
That's funny.....I read no mention that it was the English that did that. Be careful you don't rewrite history.....
dont have to rewrite history...it was the english...they done it....and thats that..tee hee..started something here...what will we call it..battle of the org:lol:
The Highland estates belonged to the Duchess of Sutherland - not the Duke. The Duchess was, of course, Scottish.
The Highland estates belonged to the Duchess of Sutherland - not the Duke. The Duchess was, of course, Scottish.I take it they had a pre-nuptial agreement?:D
dont have to rewrite history...it was the english...they done it....and thats that..tee hee..started something here...what will we call it..battle of the org:lol:
Now now....be careful....wont want to be upsetting an english minority, yes afraid to admit but i am english and can say i dont like the way they have conducted themselves over this.....I have truely been blown out on the history of scotland...We got a little of it in england when i was nothing more than a wee girl, but now i can say..."YOU LIED" you english teachers......scots have every right to be peed at us......
oh my word did i really say that:eek:
The Highland estates belonged to the Duchess of Sutherland - not the Duke. The Duchess was, of course, Scottish.
Rich, I always was taught she was a Countess, the Countess Elizabeth of Sutherland.
porshiepoo
04-Mar-08, 16:22
Ah, I see the subject of the highland clearances stirs up the usual anti English claims.
Why is it that some Scots cannot accept the very real and very horriffic part that their own clan chiefs played in the clearances? The truth is that the Highlanders were sold out by their own Scotsmen and lets not forget that the rest of Scotland were permitting the expulsion of the Highlanders.
Basically they were betrayed by their own and sold out in preference to sheep.
Ciderally, you'll get yourself in trouble! ;)
TB that is an interesting comment.
I am sure there must have been some sort of agreement - the issue is also interesting because I believe at that time women were unable to retain their property after marriage. Without some sort of legal manouvering, it went to the husband.
However the Duchess of Sutherland enthusiastically supported her husband's grand Highland economic adventure - notoriously to the extent of getting Harriet Beecher Stowe (author of Uncle Tom's Cabin) to write a special novel about the benefits of emigration. (I've never seen this book but I bet there is a copy in the National Library in Edinburgh.
I find it peculiar that the Sutherland clearances have become so notorious. There were much worse instances of eviction. The Sutherland disaster was actually part of a semi-Utopian economic plan. The Duke certainly didn't need the money raised by clearing tenants to make way for sheep. He was the richest man in England.
As to the best book on Scottish history - there isn't one. Either they are stiflingly boring or filled with special pleading.
I would recommend, Arthur Herman: How the Scots Invented the Modern World.
porshiepoo
04-Mar-08, 16:26
Rich, I always was taught she was a Countess, the Countess Elizabeth of Sutherland.
You're correct, The extremely rich Elizabeth Gordon was countess of Sutherland and married to George Granville Leveson-Gower.
This charming couple employed the services of the rather brutal enforcer Patrick sellar and were responsible for the eviction of about 15000 people.
Another good question. He was a Duke, she was a Countess - did she become a Duchess on marriage? I guess she must have done, or maybe she was both.Someday when I get weary of watching the paint dry I will try and find out by checking out Burke's Peerage.
porshiepoo
04-Mar-08, 16:35
Now now....be careful....wont want to be upsetting an english minority, yes afraid to admit but i am english and can say i dont like the way they have conducted themselves over this.....I have truely been blown out on the history of scotland...We got a little of it in england when i was nothing more than a wee girl, but now i can say..."YOU LIED" you english teachers......scots have every right to be peed at us......
oh my word did i really say that:eek:
Jeez, seriously??????????????
The way the English have conducted themselves? Embarrassed? Why?
Check your history on this subject. there was as much Scottish involvement as English and let's not forget that the Scots were betraying their own in favour of money, power and sheep.
Scotland has enacted just as many atrocities on England as the other way around, that was the times, but Scotland do not have a right to be pee'd at England because of it, just as England do not have a right to be pee'd at Scotland for their assaults.
Scotland raided English towns and villages too you know. They killed English farmers, men, boys, they raped English women and girls and took slaves also. The problem is England really does see this as history.
Anti Scotland hatred is not enforced in England whereas it seems expected and normal in some parts of Scotland.
I'm English and I'm certainly not afraid to admit it.
porshiepoo
04-Mar-08, 16:37
Another good question. He was a Duke, she was a Countess - did she become a Duchess on marriage? I guess she must have done, or maybe she was both.Someday when I get weary of watching the paint dry I will try and find out by checking out Burke's Peerage.
Actually he was a Marquis, which makes him rank lower than a Duke. :)
TB that is an interesting comment.
I am sure there must have been some sort of agreement - the issue is also interesting because I believe at that time women were unable to retain their property after marriage. Without some sort of legal manouvering, it went to the husband.
However the Duchess of Sutherland enthusiastically supported her husband's grand Highland economic adventure - notoriously to the extent of getting Harriet Beecher Stowe (author of Uncle Tom's Cabin) to write a special novel about the benefits of emigration. (I've never seen this book but I bet there is a copy in the National Library in Edinburgh.
I find it peculiar that the Sutherland clearances have become so notorious. There were much worse instances of eviction. The Sutherland disaster was actually part of a semi-Utopian economic plan. The Duke certainly didn't need the money raised by clearing tenants to make way for sheep. He was the richest man in England.
As to the best book on Scottish history - there isn't one. Either they are stiflingly boring or filled with special pleading.
I would recommend, Arthur Herman: How the Scots Invented the Modern World.I think part of the notoriety was gained by statue erected in the memory of The Duke of Sutherland. He is still a figure of hatred in these parts to this day.
Jeez, seriously??????????????
The way the English have conducted themselves? Embarrassed? Why?
Check your history on this subject. there was as much Scottish involvement as English and let's not forget that the Scots were betraying their own in favour of money, power and sheep.
Scotland has enacted just as many atrocities on England as the other way around, that was the times, but Scotland do not have a right to be pee'd at England because of it, just as England do not have a right to be pee'd at Scotland for their assaults.
Scotland raided English towns and villages too you know. They killed English farmers, men, boys, they raped English women and girls and took slaves also. The problem is England really does see this as history.
Anti Scotland hatred is not enforced in England whereas it seems expected and normal in some parts of Scotland.
I'm English and I'm certainly not afraid to admit it.
I dont know much about the scottish history thats why i started this thread...I only know what i was told at school and like most things in life we only get one side....
Believe me i am ashamed of being english in alot of ways, they have had there good times and bad, and how i choose to see my life of being english is really down to me...Christ sometimes when i hear of mothers treating their children bad i am ashamed of being a woman, its more a phrase...My right to choose where my loyalties lie....
I know about thescottish being ousted bytheir own people and the english cant be blamed but if we had not sown the seeds they probably wouldnot have carried it on..Please correct me if i am wrong...
Never forget that William Ewart Gladstone was English (from a formerly slave trading family in Liverpool.) It is thanks to Gladstone that the Land Act of 1886 (don't hold me to that date!) was passed which made it all but impossible to carry out evictions and compensated tenants for improvements they may have made to their property. The date of when the crofing act came in, I am not so sure. Although I am certain some Orger will have the information at his or her fingertips.
So three cheers for Mr. Gladstone!
porshiepoo
04-Mar-08, 16:52
I dont know much about the scottish history thats why i started this thread...I only know what i was told at school and like most things in life we only get one side....
Believe me i am ashamed of being english in alot of ways, they have had there good times and bad, and how i choose to see my life of being english is really down to me...Christ sometimes when i hear of mothers treating their children bad i am ashamed of being a woman, its more a phrase...My right to choose where my loyalties lie....
I know about thescottish being ousted bytheir own people and the english cant be blamed but if we had not sown the seeds they probably wouldnot have carried it on..Please correct me if i am wrong...
OK, I correct you. So a choice or option was given and the fact that the clan chiefs decided to sever any loyalty to these people (who incidentally lived hand to mouth with a meagre, poverished existence while swearing loyalty to the clan chiefs) and nearly annihilated them, is the fault of the English???? The choices made by the Scottish for whatever reason should be held accountable by England?? Don't think so!
Yes, it is your choice where your loyalties lie. But if your loyalties are based on such tenuous threads as what you happen to have been told on here (which appears to be the case) then those loyalties are hardly stable are they!
As for your analogy of being ashamed to be a woman, well, I'm actually lost for words!
I did some intensive research (in Wikipedia!) and found out that the current occupant of Dunrobin Castle is a Countess.
The reason she is a Countess and not a Duchess is that Dukedoms (or whatever you call them) can be passed on only in the male line.
As for the Marquis of Stafford he was made Duke of Sutherland by Willian IV in 1833. (According to Wikipedia)
OK, I correct you. So a choice or option was given and the fact that the clan chiefs decided to sever any loyalty to these people (who incidentally lived hand to mouth with a meagre, poverished existence while swearing loyalty to the clan chiefs) and nearly annihilated them, is the fault of the English???? The choices made by the Scottish for whatever reason should be held accountable by England?? Don't think so!
Yes, it is your choice where your loyalties lie. But if your loyalties are based on such tenuous threads as what you happen to have been told on here (which appears to be the case) then those loyalties are hardly stable are they!
As for your analogy of being ashamed to be a woman, well, I'm actually lost for words!
I will remember to enlighten my children of this when i tell them about the country they live in.....
I asked this question in light of my kids and you are turning this into nothing more than have a go i am better and more knowledgeable...Well i am sorry if you feel this way about thehistory and i will have no choise to close this thread, which i dont want to do as it is a subject we should have a fair say on......
Can any tell me if scottish history is available in schools.I know we got english hisotry rammed at us, but it is a subject i liked.
My husband is scottish and he has told me some but like all humans forgetting some school subjects is easier than remembering them..he has forgot alot of it and thats why i am curious...When we sit and talk about it at home i feel lost because i know nothing about the lives the scots have had....
But thanks to you all for a good responce i may be able to understand some of our conversations now......;).
yes they do teach scottish history in schools, my daughter has just finished a project on the clearances.
percy toboggan
04-Mar-08, 17:56
scots have every right to be peed at us......
Who do you mean by 'us' ?
As a working class Englishman whose ancestors were humble farm labourers on one side and grafted in cotton mills for a pittance on the other please do not lump me in with any acquisitive bunch of aristocrats, land owners and military men you might feel you are a part of.
The Scots had as much to fear from other Scots as they did from the English...if you're studying Scottish history go right back to the fourth century and see how much of present day Scotland was Irish, Pictish and Scottish...they were fighting each other then...they were fighting each other fourteen hundred years later. Some folks just like a fight. In that regard the whole of this island is guilty...but without a greedy, grasping ruling class there may well have been some kind of harmony, as had ultimately proved to be the case....football excluded.
percy toboggan
04-Mar-08, 17:58
[quote=justine;351566]...When we sit and talk about it at home i feel lost because i know nothing about the lives the scots have had....
quote]
There will be numerous books in your local library. As someone living there now it is indeed your duty to acquaint yourself with the country's heritage...I applaud your motives.
Who do you mean by 'us' ?
As a working class Englishman whose ancestors were humble farm labourers on one side and grafted in cotton mills for a pittance on the other please do not lump me in with any acquisitive bunch of aristocrats, land owners and military men you might feel you are a part of.
The Scots had as much to fear from other Scots as they did from the English...if you're studying Scottish history go right back to the fourth century and see how much of present day Scotland was Irish, Pictish and Scottish...they were fighting each other then...they were fighting each other twelve hundred years later. Some folks just like a fight. In that regard the whole of this island is guilty...but without a greedy, grasping ruling class there may well have been some kind of harmony, as had ultimately proved to be the case....football excluded.
This is the kind of info i am trying to find out...I was not sure how far back i should go...But i have been informed most recenlty that the vikings sold scotland back to the scots for a small amount, so this gives me an idea how far back i should go...
My forfathers were also humble men, fought and died for their country,i was born in Bolton as you know and that is also a big part of my family history, Bolton was the one of the largest mill towns or was...So i also amfrom a humble begining but this is about scottish history not english....although the two merge to one subject i want to hear the other side of the fight..I know what the english did and now its time to find out the scottish side of this...
My only fault in this thread i can see is making a judgement from one half of the story, now i have a chance to see....
But i still have my loyalties as an Englishmans daughter, but Sorry England did me no favours,
percy toboggan
04-Mar-08, 18:10
This is the kind of info i am trying to find out...I was not sure how far back i should go...But i have been informed most recenlty that the vikings sold scotland back to the scots for a small amount, so this gives me an idea how far back i should go......
..... but Sorry England did me no favours,
The 'Scots' were not a homogenous group at the time of Viking incursions.
As for 'favours' I'm with John F. Kennedy....ask not etc. etc...
Good luck with your studies.
Now im lost......cheers for creating confusion..
I will enjoy my studies and will learn alot...:)
Try http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/scottishhistory/index.shtml
That deals with Scottish History but for the Clearances, you have to go to
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/
because while the Clearances were not necessarily an English led state of affairs, they were partly a British establishment method of reducing the impact of the clan system to prevent further uprisings such as the Jacobite ones, and partly through profit making on the part of all those who participated.
Imo, it matters not whether they were English or Scottish landowners or factors who initiated and carried out the Clearances.......the fact is that they were British..........and the individual who cleared the most people was the Duke of Sutherland, who was English.
The majority of Scottish landowners at the time had English Titles, were English based and educated, if not English born, and had much the same low opinion of the Highlander as they had of the Irish.
They were Scottish only in name. Not really a lot different from many in Government today.
NickInTheNorth
04-Mar-08, 18:35
Hi Justine
I agree completely that the teaching of history in English schools is abysmal.
Don't know about you, but one "fact" I was taught way back in primary school was that the Romans never ventured beyond Hadrians Wall (apart from a few very small incursions).
It has been a real revelation to me just how far and for how long the Romans were active in Scotland!
Hi Justine
I agree completely that the teaching of history in English schools is abysmal.
Don't know about you, but one "fact" I was taught way back in primary school was that the Romans never ventured beyond Hadrians Wall (apart from a few very small incursions).
It has been a real revelation to me just how far and for how long the Romans were active in Scotland!
Not long i think. but i am not sure.
.I am hoping to get alot of info from the links i have been given...I have just been reading about the battle of culloden..I cant believe it..Also the Glencoe massacre...this is what we did not get at school...
English schools should have a scottish history lesson, it may get rid of some ,not all the hatred that can go on between the english and the scots...
Big hughie
04-Mar-08, 19:09
Why the surprise about Scots doing to Scots in the time of the clearances ??
While it is hard to generalise about each event it was basically Anglophiles within the Scottish establishment who were the worst offenders ...One of the most depressing events was the role of the church at the time which was to aid the land owners (with one or two exceptions) as far as they could even helping to "indenture" emigrants to their new owners in the colonies
it should also be noted that not all clans were fighting on the Jacobite side at Culloden (the Sinclairs were on the Government side) in fact a heck of a lot were not there at all ..but everyone of them had the act of proscription enforced upon them ..no arms tartan etc etc Coupled with the appalling behaviour of Cumberland after the event for a lot it was time to get out ..much to the benefit of the USA Canada etc and to the loss of Scotland
As for Scotland being a factious country England had quite a time of strife as well with the wars of the Roses etc and its had problems with its establishment as well ........ask some Yorkshire miners about Dame Margaret Hilda Thatcher and her like
Beeg Hugheeeeeeeeee
porshiepoo
04-Mar-08, 19:19
I will remember to enlighten my children of this when i tell them about the country they live in.....
I asked this question in light of my kids and you are turning this into nothing more than have a go i am better and more knowledgeable...Well i am sorry if you feel this way about thehistory and i will have no choise to close this thread, which i dont want to do as it is a subject we should have a fair say on......
Words fail me again. But I'll try to summon some up.
My previous comments were born of the surprise and concern that you feel - for whatever reason - ashamed to be English based on threads and links from here on subjects you had no previous knowledge of. I can only assume that you have been reading biased accounts of what has happened in Scottish history. Try balancing these accounts with Englands accounts of the atrocities thrust on them by Scotland.
One of my main points was that IMO history should be used as an educational tool only and not as a reference as to how we, as Brits, should see one another now.
I have not claimed to have better knowledge on this matter than you, I have simply laid down what I know, or as for everyone else, what I think I know. The problem is that there are various different accounts of this sort of thing so which do we choose to believe? Unfortunately our first account of what people think happened is usually the one that stays with us, whether these accounts are factual or not.
Why close the thread? This thread has not turned into a slanging match full of abuse, it's merely opinion. There is no need to close the thread at all. If you didn't want people to participate in conversation with yourself or others maybe you should have expressed this desire from the outset.
You claim we have a fair say yet as soon as someone expresses an opinion different to yours or challenges yours, you threaten to close the thread!
There, I managed to find a few words. :eek:
Why the surprise about Scots doing to Scots in the time of the clearances ??
While it is hard to generalise about each event it was basically Anglophiles within the Scottish establishment who were the worst offenders ...One of the most depressing events was the role of the church at the time which was to aid the land owners (with one or two exceptions) as far as they could even helping to "indenture" emigrants to their new owners in the colonies
it should also be noted that not all clans were fighting on the Jacobite side at Culloden (the Sinclairs were on the Government side) in fact a heck of a lot were not there at all ..but everyone of them had the act of proscription enforced upon them ..no arms tartan etc etc Coupled with the appalling behaviour of Cumberland after the event for a lot it was time to get out ..much to the benefit of the USA Canada etc and to the loss of Scotland
As for Scotland being a factious country England had quite a time of strife as well with the wars of the Roses etc and its had problems with its establishment as well ........ask some Yorkshire miners about Dame Margaret Hilda Thatcher and her like
Beeg Hugheeeeeeeeee
You ask why the suprise. I was ignorant to the fact of the clearences..I did not know about them and am just starting to learn more than i was given in life...I cannot understand completely why all felt they should be cleared, but historically i see why..I may not understand the reason as a human...
It seems barbaric to me that any national should be taken or ask to move from there own land, every man had a right to own land,To keep it, but even then its madness.. I am hoping to get as much information and then and only then can i make a judgement...I live in facts...But this is a thing i do because i want to learn about scottish history..I feel no comparison to the humble miners in england...
Words fail me again. But I'll try to summon some up.
My previous comments were born of the surprise and concern that you feel - for whatever reason - ashamed to be English based on threads and links from here on subjects you had no previous knowledge of. I can only assume that you have been reading biased accounts of what has happened in Scottish history. Try balancing these accounts with Englands accounts of the atrocities thrust on them by Scotland.
One of my main points was that IMO history should be used as an educational tool only and not as a reference as to how we, as Brits, should see one another now.
I have not claimed to have better knowledge on this matter than you, I have simply laid down what I know, or as for everyone else, what I think I know. The problem is that there are various different accounts of this sort of thing so which do we choose to believe? Unfortunately our first account of what people think happened is usually the one that stays with us, whether these accounts are factual or not.
Why close the thread? This thread has not turned into a slanging match full of abuse, it's merely opinion. There is no need to close the thread at all. If you didn't want people to participate in conversation with yourself or others maybe you should have expressed this desire from the outset.
You claim we have a fair say yet as soon as someone expresses an opinion different to yours or challenges yours, you threaten to close the thread!
There, I managed to find a few words. :eek:
Tediuos if i say so....but thanks for the enlightening conversation of points of view,,,
Justine,
For a good broadbrush treatment of scottish history, I can recommend Scotland's Story by Tom Steel.
It's not too heavy reading and it covers all the main areas of how the country came to be what it is today from the earliest settlers to modern times.
The kids should get plenty material for further study.
Also, for individual events that might take your fancy, John Prebble books are good too.
Magnus magnusson's Scotland: The Story of a Nation is also very informative.
If you can work your way through these, you will find that the Highland Clearances although still an emotive subject in the areas where they took place (and rightly so) were only one small part of the history of the scottish nation.
percy toboggan
04-Mar-08, 20:04
For really awful and innacurate portrayal of the 'Romans' in Scotland watch the movie 'King Arthur' which stars Ikea Nightly. Historcially it's tosh but by gum it's top notch entertaining hokum type tosh ...she suits a bow 'n arrow en all!
porshiepoo
04-Mar-08, 20:04
Try http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/scottis...ry/index.shtml (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/scottishhistory/index.shtml)
That deals with Scottish History but for the Clearances, you have to go to
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/ (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/)
because while the Clearances were not necessarily an English led state of affairs, they were partly a British establishment method of reducing the impact of the clan system to prevent further uprisings such as the Jacobite ones, and partly through profit making on the part of all those who participated.
Imo, it matters not whether they were English or Scottish landowners or factors who initiated and carried out the Clearances.......the fact is that they were British..........and the individual who cleared the most people was the Duke of Sutherland, who was English.
Or just to balance things, the Countess of Sutherland was Scottish born and bred, Patrick Sellar was Scottish born, bred and raised. The clan chiefs that betrayed the Highlanders and carried out the clearances were Scottish born, bred and raised and lets not also forget the Scottish nation that allowed this to happen.
The majority of Scottish landowners at the time had English Titles, were English based and educated, if not English born, and had much the same low opinion of the Highlander as they had of the Irish.
I have to disagree there. The majority of people who carried out the clearances were Scots and this comment just seems a way for Scots to deny any involvement in the clearances at all. If someone is Scottish born and bears a Scottish name, they're Scottish. If these people had all had English names but had been born and raised in Scotland then you would still be making the same claim as above, so no matter what Scotland doesn't admit any responsibility or involvement at all.
The Scots involved were as greedy and barbaric as the English involved.
The Lowlanders also had a low opinion of the Highlanders too at that time, in fact a lot of Scotland had low opinions of them also, hence why they didn't take action to prevent it happening. When the chips were down, Scots allowed it to continue when the outcome would mean lining their pockets.
helenwyler
04-Mar-08, 20:08
Justine, there were many factors leading up to the Clearances...
For example... a huge population increase in the 1750s created a surplus of agricultural labour. Commercialisation of agriculture was sweeping all over Europe. The clan became inefficient as a rent-producing unit. The growing metropolitan aspirations of the chiefs/landowners....
By 1760 three quarters of the English peasantry had already been thrown off the common and waste land in England after the Enclosure Acts (which they depended on for food) creating great destitution and emigration. Similar agricultural changes were happening all over Europe, not just the UK.
I found The Highland Clearances by Eric Richards, and The Making of the Crofting Community by James Hunter (both from Amazon) very interesting and informative!:)
percy toboggan
04-Mar-08, 20:13
every man had a right to own land,To keep it, but even then its madness.. I am hoping to get as much information and then and only then can i make a judgement...I live in facts...But this is a thing i do because i want to learn about scottish history..I feel no comparison to the humble miners in england...
'Humble miners' ? this group were once described from the TUC podium as 'the cream of the working class' The remark brought hoots of derision, I rememer it well. I think there is a comparison....both groups were shafted by the ruling class. Remember the definitive miners strike was about pit closures...not money. We stil have 300 years worth of coal sitting underneath us doing nowt much.
You say 'every man has a right to own land' ...think about it Justine, there would not be enough land to go round...there is no such right...if anything I say nobody should own land.....sorry if I sound like a Native American,cos I were born in Wythenshawe!*
(*biggest council estate in Europe c.1960's - south of Mancunia)
porshiepoo
04-Mar-08, 20:26
Not long i think. but i am not sure.
.I am hoping to get alot of info from the links i have been given...I have just been reading about the battle of culloden..I cant believe it..Also the Glencoe massacre...this is what we did not get at school...
English schools should have a Scottish history lesson, it may get rid of some ,not all the hatred that can go on between the English and the scots...
Yep this is gonna seem like I'm singling you out but I'm really not, honestly.
English schools should have a Scottish history lesson! Why? No, I'm not being antagonistic I'm being sincere. Whys should there be a definitive Scottish history lesson in English schools?
English schools do not currently have an 'English' history class. Not at all. English schools have a 'History' lesson, that lesson encompasses the whole of the UK as well as parts of the world.
Scottish schools have a 'History' lesson too, not a 'Scottish History' lesson.
At school in England I remember learning about the whole of the UK as well as the world, not just England, although granted there was quite a bit of attention on English Kings and Queens.
My daughters did history here in Scotland and a lot of emphasis was made of Scotland's Kings and Queens as opposed to England's - fair enough.
Definitely no need for separate lessons IMO. The history of the UK is the history of England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales as well as some other worldwide areas. Should we have Irish history lessons? Welsh history lessons? American history lessons? If a person wants to specialise in these areas then this is usually pursued in college or uni.
Why do you believe this may get rid of some of the hatred?
Is it your opinion that the majority of English dislike the Scots and if they could only see their history they would change?
Again, I'm not bullying you I am genuinely interested.
because while the Clearances were not necessarily an English led state of affairs, they were partly a British establishment method of reducing the impact of the clan system to prevent further uprisings such as the Jacobite ones, and partly through profit making on the part of all those who participated.
Pro-Jacobite? I just wondered if a Catholic totalitarian system is something that you would have approved of?:confused
Justine, there were many factors leading up to the Clearances...
For example... a huge population increase in the 1750s created a surplus of agricultural labour. Commercialisation of agriculture was sweeping all over Europe. The clan became inefficient as a rent-producing unit. The growing metropolitan aspirations of the chiefs/landowners....
By 1760 three quarters of the English peasantry had already been thrown off the common and waste land in England after the Enclosure Acts (which they depended on for food) creating great destitution and emigration. Similar agricultural changes were happening all over Europe, not just the UK.
I found The Highland Clearances by Eric Richards, and The Making of the Crofting Community by James Hunter (both from Amazon) very interesting and informative!:)
Thanks for this...I wanted this kind of information....I now have some good references for my studies...
Dusty your list has been great..Thanks for all your help with this....i have enough to go on....
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