School bullies....

[percy toboggan]

When I was about twenty years of age (c1971) I listened to a radio report about Schoolteachers in China. They were being frequently beaten up by their pupils. I was staggered, but relaxed in the knowledge it could never happen here.

This morning, on Radio 5 live V.D's* phone in covered the subject of school bullies. This from a new angle though...apparently record number sof TEACHERS are being bullied at work. This involves both verbal and physical attacks. Their cars are also vanadalised frequently. Parents usually default to a defensive postiion and support their kids in any dispute with school.

What in heavens name is happening in our country? Some of the callers were exasperated long serving teachers, a few had 'got out' of the profession and sounded mightily relieved to have done so.

I posted a jokey reference the other to being kicked and beaten at school back in the sixties, saying it had done me no harm :cool:. What seems evident to me is that the decades since then have seen a gradual loosening of disciplinary methods until pupils have no fear.[disgust]

Of course, the majority want to study, and learn in an ordered environment...the vast majority of kids and parents are being pulled back by
ill mannered and violent low life who should be expelled on their ear for so much as swearing at a teacher in my opinion. A zero tolerance approach is required with heavy handed back up from local authorities who must no longer undermine Head's decsions to exclude. There should be NO right of
appeal.

I do not envy teachers, and of course some of them are inneffective and lacking in the gravitas (or in our day cruel and hard streak) that makes a kid take notice. The chaff should be weeded out but in the meantime, even the chaff deserve the protection of a system committed to disclipline and good behaviour as a minimum, and possessing the fortitude to enforce it.
TEACHERS MUST RULE IN OUR SCHOOLS OK !!!?

[unicorn]

I absolutely agree it is high time there was some form of respect for elders on this country.

[teddybear1873]

National Service for all 16 years olds. It should be brought back

[Metalattakk]

How is that going to help, teddybear?

[teddybear1873]

How is that going to help, teddybear?

Are you saying its wrong to bring it back?

[Metalattakk]

I'm asking how it will help the problem of teachers being attacked by pupils in school.

And no, I don't think it should be brought back.

[percy toboggan]

I'm now of the opinion that sixteen year olds should be inducted into an overseas aid brigade to help third world countries with labour and education.
A short six month programme...uniformed and obviously away from home with no appeals or compo if they catch the clap or get pregnant. Come to think of it keep the brigades single sex. A cash bonus to all who complete of five hundred quid tax free.

A form of national service sans guns and militaria...but with military style discipline for six weeks before departure. Britain's often rudderless youth is crying out for this kind of thing...it would instill pride...teach realities and give them a bit of a shock...not to say remind them how lucky they really are.

This could also be a great leveller - no get outs,. Non-attendance punishable by an equivalent term in the nick. Their choice.

[teddybear1873]

I'm asking how it will help the problem of teachers being attacked by pupils in school.

And no, I don't think it should be brought back.

It wont help problems of being attacked at school at this moment in time, but as time goes if they did National Service, when there adult and have kids im sure it will help bringing up children with respect. Im not saying parents is not learning there kids how to respect there elders. In the long run it will work.

[teddybear1873]

I'm asking how it will help the problem of teachers being attacked by pupils in school.

And no, I don't think it should be brought back.

And for what reason dont you think National Service shouldnt be brought back Metalattakk?

[justine]

maybe they should have a Lets teach repsect for elders school targeting primary school goers....And a how to respect our kids, because if they dont feel they have our respect they wont learn how to give it back....Parents teachers and adults alike should show some respect to the youngers ones and let them learn by seeing it given to them, not when its too late....

[cuddlepop]

Unfortunatly with some kids they do as they please and that includes behaviour.:(
Gone are the days when a teacher could pull a kid up about there behaviour with a comment like.."would you behave like that at home?"
Its not all kids just some but the "some " tend to get the press coverage.

Oh remembers getting a second wack at home if his dad found out he got the belt that day.

you just wouldn't dare step out of line.

[Solus]

National service wont solve the problem in the short term and hoping that national service will change them to become better adults and raise their children better is a big " hope"

They should never have done away with borstal or approved schools. There is some that placing them into a approved school or borstal will make no difference but they are few and far between, most would get the shock of their lives to spend any length of time in one of these places. No mummy or daddy to help them, the good old short sharp shock, show them this is the way your heading if you continue the way your going.

[Metalattakk]

[QUOTE=teddybear1873;348326]It wont help problems of being attacked at school at this moment in time, but as time goes if they did National Service, when there adult and have kids im sure it will help bringing up children with respect.

How can you be sure that it will help future parents to bring up their kids to show respect? It might very well lead to them bringing up their kids to be overly-aggressive and self-centred. Who is to say what will happen?


Im not saying parents is not learning there kids how to respect there elders.

That is exactly what you said, and I agree. It's not the responsibility of the Services to instil discipline and respect into our youngsters. That is the job of the parents.


And for what reason dont you think National Service shouldnt be brought back Metalattakk?

I don't believe National Service would work in today's society.

1) For a start, the Forces themselves wouldn't want any part in it, it's too much hassle dealing with hundreds of thousands of kids who just don't want to be there. I believe the Forces have already indicated that they wouldn't be interested in partaking in such a scheme.

2) The lily-Liberal Left would have a field day at our precious wee lamb's loss of Human Rights.

3) The cost of the operation far outweigh the possibly minuscule benefits.


I am, every day, becoming more and more enamoured with the notion of the compulsory sterilisation of new-born baby boys, and only allowing a reversal if and when they are old enough, have passed a 'Parenting Exam', and have sufficient finances to support a child. A 'Parenting License' would be issued to those who deserve it, and only they would be able to procreate. Of course, this is all just a pipe-dream... :(

Too many people are having kids today with neither the notion nor aptitude to bring them up properly, and a brief stint in the Army won't change that.

[rob murray]

I see the hang em and flog em brigade are out in force here, reminising about their orderly past, where there was no youth crime, no teacher attacks, no in discipline in schools, a world where kindly beat bobbies had total respect and gained law order by clipping people around the ear., a world where there were little murders cos the rope acted as the deterant Well I dont recognise any of this and I wis there. I remember Wick High late 60's mid 70's as a school with a lot of in discipline, teachers being smacked,janitors smacked, teachers afraid to take certain classes, mayhem happening weekly in dances at the assembly rooms ( drink fuelled ) You see in those days people left schools at 15, so a lot of 14 year old boys ( 14 mind not 16 - 18 ) couldnt be bothered, theywere just waiting for the day to leave and believe you me you wouldnt want to cross them !!!!

Another thing, national service finished around 1960 ? so the youngest ex national service man would be now around 66. How many people on this thread actually were national service men...and what damn good did it do anyway, why should my kids, or anybodies kids be frog marched away against their will !!!

Out of school, in some cases, availablity of cheap drink and boredom is causing mayhem and serious issues. I have been on here before about this, the police have powers of dispersal, they should use them. Secondly, up the age limit to 21 and age check upto 30, terminate the license of anyone convicted of selling alcohol directly to kids, have massive fines for adults who buy for kids...that'l calm this issues down.

School "violence / bullying" : give them something to do that might engage them better..in my day kids causing trouble were bored of the curriculum, ever thought of that ? Kids causing trouble should be excluded from main stream school end of

[Torvaig]

I agree with Justine; surely the basis of society is respect and that should begin at home from the earliest age; respect for every member of the family regardless of age.

In my schooldays there was a subject called citizenship but not every class had it on their timetable. At the time I didn't know why as it sounded interesting to me; I was a very naive neep-docker and hadn't even heard of the word citizenship.

On reflection I saw it was taught to those in the "lower" classes, not those who did Latin, French etc., though why there should have been a difference I do not know but it showed the mindset of the day; obviously those of a "certain class" were thought to need it more.

I believe the subject should be still on the curriculum for all pupils (maybe it is, I don't know) and brought up to date by sharing the views of pupils and teachers and respecting these views. I know that one of my best teachers was a man who was supposed to be teaching us RK (religious knowledge) but after just a few minutes, a pupil would ask a question (we knew we could distract him from his subject) and the lesson would go off at a tangent onto some subject that we were interested in, which, often as not, was not RK!

Now that teacher had our respect because he listened to our point of view and we listened to his because of the way he treated us. He respected our way of thinking and vice,versa. And I must say, we learned a lot from him about a variety of subjects and everyone like him.

[justine]

Thanks Torvaig..I thought i was the only one with a clear solution....My god all that are for putting them into boots camps when its too late..Dont people realise that the only way to stop school bulling and disrespect for elders is to start at the earliest age possible....2 yrs of age.They may not understand the word but they do understand the action...

I was taught repect in many ways, some good, most bad, but i still have respect for my parents, which unfortunately is all i have for them but i still repect them becuase there are the ones that brought me into this world....
I am raising my children to respect us and their siblings....And i can say that it works.....Believe me they are still kids, still let loose with a marker on the walls, toothpaste in the toilet and all the other things that kids get up to..But they are polite, courtious, respectful and definatley insane......

Now if i can do this with nine children then why can they not do it with 1 or 2 kids...

Allowing them to rule the roost from the early age is just making for hassle as they get older.....

But dont get me wrong for those that have lost the repect or never had it the only answer would be a militry style school..where rules cant be broken and respect is earned.....Not a boot camp, nor a punishment centre but somewhere they will learn by being given respect and then they will learn how to give it back....

Adults are the reason the children of today know nothing,,,They get an easy life and then the parents cry out for help when they realise theyhave made such a mess of raising their young.......

Oh well cant all be perfect ...

[Highland Laddie]

[quote=Metalattakk;348380][quote=teddybear1873;348326]

I am, every day, becoming more and more enamoured with the notion of the compulsory sterilisation of new-born baby boys, and only allowing a reversal if and when they are old enough, have passed a 'Parenting Exam', and have sufficient finances to support a child. A 'Parenting License' would be issued to those who deserve it, and only they would be able to procreate. Of course, this is all just a pipe-dream... :(

I think this sounds similar to a certain German that had similar ideas once upon a time.

Bad idea.

[Torvaig]

ROB MURRAY "Secondly, up the age limit to 21 and age check upto 30, terminate the license of anyone convicted of selling alcohol directly to kids, have massive fines for adults who buy for kids...that'l calm this issues down."

I don't know why more licences aren't being revoked; that is what the licensing system is suppose to be about; meet certain conditions and when they don't, take it away from them....

Licencees complain that they can't tell the ages of the customers and that other people buy drink for the younger ones, well they should have stewards on duty to ensure as far as possible that this does not happen.

It is time that these licences were respected and that those issuing and applying for them are made keep to the conditions otherwise what is the point of them?

[justine]

I see the hang em and flog em brigade are out in force here, reminising about their orderly past, where there was no youth crime, no teacher attacks, no in discipline in schools, a world where kindly beat bobbies had total respect and gained law order by clipping people around the ear., a world where there were little murders cos the rope acted as the deterant Well I dont recognise any of this and I wis there. I remember Wick High late 60's mid 70's as a school with a lot of in discipline, teachers being smacked,janitors smacked, teachers afraid to take certain classes, mayhem happening weekly in dances at the assembly rooms ( drink fuelled ) You see in those days people left schools at 15, so a lot of 14 year old boys ( 14 mind not 16 - 18 ) couldnt be bothered, theywere just waiting for the day to leave and believe you me you wouldnt want to cross them !!!!

Another thing, national service finished around 1960 ? so the youngest ex national service man would be now around 66. How many people on this thread actually were national service men...and what damn good did it do anyway, why should my kids, or anybodies kids be frog marched away against their will !!!

Out of school, in some cases, availablity of cheap drink and boredom is causing mayhem and serious issues. I have been on here before about this, the police have powers of dispersal, they should use them. Secondly, up the age limit to 21 and age check upto 30, terminate the license of anyone convicted of selling alcohol directly to kids, have massive fines for adults who buy for kids...that'l calm this issues down.

School "violence / bullying" : give them something to do that might engage them better..in my day kids causing trouble were bored of the curriculum, ever thought of that ? Kids causing trouble should be excluded from main stream school end of



Sonds like you are making excuses for the kids actions....The point of it being that they did get away with it and nobody doing anything to stop this......You mention certain aspect of the situation like the police had respect because the could clip you round the lug and send you on your way...Sorry but that sounds stupid, and yes i was there, i know what it was like, but many people darent give a youngster a clip, and thats not in fear of running up against the law, more to do with the fact that they are scared incase they end up being beaten up, or killed by the said teens...

So please tell me what your solution would be....You are acusing the hang em brigade of being out but you contradict yourself with your words...The actions of the police back then is wrong...just because they could clip them would probably make them think, oh well if the law can do it so can we...

Please dont think i am jumping on you here, but it is that kind of mentalitly that has gotten us to where we are in society with teens today....show them it is ok to give someone a clip for being out of place and thats what they grow up thinking is right...Where was the respect in that action.....

My kids and many others are taught respect at home and they continue in life understanding what they have been taught and practising it....

[rob murray]

Sonds like you are making excuses for the kids actions....The point of it being that they did get away with it and nobody doing anything to stop this......You mention certain aspect of the situation like the police had respect because the could clip you round the lug and send you on your way...Sorry but that sounds stupid, and yes i was there, i know what it was like, but many people darent give a youngster a clip, and thats not in fear of running up against the law, more to do with the fact that they are scared incase they end up being beaten up, or killed by the said teens...

So please tell me what your solution would be....You are acusing the hang em brigade of being out but you contradict yourself with your words...The actions of the police back then is wrong...just because they could clip them would probably make them think, oh well if the law can do it so can we...

Please dont think i am jumping on you here, but it is that kind of mentalitly that has gotten us to where we are in society with teens today....show them it is ok to give someone a clip for being out of place and thats what they grow up thinking is right...Where was the respect in that action.....

My kids and many others are taught respect at home and they continue in life understanding what they have been taught and practising it....

I think you should re read my original posting ! What I am saying is that people ( on this site /thread / and all over the place ) advocating national service, birching, hanging, clips round the ear by coppers etc base their arguements on some notion that these things worked in the past, now they clearly didnt. As for excuses, come on re read the postings, all will become clear, I mean what about the views I expressed on teen alcohol fuelled trouble ? Inappropriate curriculum, permanent exclusion, police using powers of dispersal. You are jumping in here feet first aren't you, now re read and, if you are up to it perhaps apologise. ( my kids to were taught respect at home, and so were the bulk of families that I know )

[Ricco]

Another thing, national service finished around 1960 ? so the youngest ex national service man would be now around 66. How many people on this thread actually were national service men...and what damn good did it do anyway, why should my kids, or anybodies kids be frog marched away against their will !!!

I agree that National Service, as it used to be, was not such a good idea. However, the concept of a year (or two) doing training in teamwork, learning valuable interpersonal skills and technical skills, would go a long way into helping them develop as balanced individuals with lots of self respect and self esteem. This is where some form of National Service structure would be useful.


Out of school, in some cases, availablity of cheap drink and boredom is causing mayhem and serious issues. I have been on here before about this, the police have powers of dispersal, they should use them. Secondly, up the age limit to 21 and age check upto 30, terminate the license of anyone convicted of selling alcohol directly to kids, have massive fines for adults who buy for kids...that'l calm this issues down.

This is all too true. Sadly, the youngsters are skilled at dodging the police and staying one step ahead. Mobile phone technology has assisted greatly in this. Punishing those who buy / provide alcohol for youngsters is one solution. Being a teacher myself (fortunately not bullied) I often hear my students chatting about what booze they drank / what parties they are going to and that they are going to get 'ratted'. Very sad that this attitude exists and I think that the key to solving the problem is to find out the underlying reasons and adressing them. It is not a case that 'there is nothing to do', nor 'we're bored'. As ex-teens ourselves we had nothing provided for us and we were often bored - see below. What are the key differences today? Answer that and we will be some way towards the solution.


School "violence / bullying" : give them something to do that might engage them better..in my day kids causing trouble were bored of the curriculum, ever thought of that ? Kids causing trouble should be excluded from main stream school end of

I am not sure I agree with you here. Yes, there were areas of the curriculum that we all found boring to one degree or another - mostly because we could not see the relevance to our lives, as teenagers. However, today's curriculum has been changed and tweaked to make it much more interesting and, dare I say it, entertaining. This is, in my mnid, one of the problems. Why should everything be 'entertaining'? Having fun means that attention spans no longer matter - find another form of entertainment once you get bored. The average attention span of an adult is 15-20 minutes; if a youngster has a shorter attention span and their lesson is 1 hour long, of course they will get bored. Part of a lesson is training to concentrate on one thing / task for longer periods of time. Today's leisure culture is for quick, easy and changeable forms of entertainment - no concentration, no need to stay focussed for long periods of time.

Get rid of the TV in the bedroom; get rid of the PC in the bedroom; get rid of the DVD player in the bedroom; get the kids back into joining in with the family or in group activities and perhaps we will see a change this way. Of course, there will be a revolt to contend with!

Basically, society has given youngsters too much freedom, too much choice, This means that they have become 'spoiled' by being able to do what they like. We have given the the freedom to gather in large groups (used to be called 'gangs' in my day) and the technology (and cash) to take advantage of a whole new generation of methods of getting up to mischief.

So..... any ideas?

[justine]

I think you should re read my original posting ! What I am saying is that people ( on this site /thread / and all over the place ) advocating national service, birching, hanging, clips round the ear by coppers etc base their arguements on some notion that these things worked in the past, now they clearly didnt. As for excuses, come on re read the postings, all will become clear, I mean what about the views I expressed on teen alcohol fuelled trouble ? Inappropriate curriculum, permanent exclusion, police using powers of dispersal. You are jumping in here feet first aren't you, now re read and, if you are up to it perhaps apologise. ( my kids to were taught respect at home, and so were the bulk of families that I know )

people opinions are what the org is about we all have ours...Ok so you dont advocate what has been done, but what solution do you have.You speak about the problem but i dont hear you mentioning a way out....We all have opinions on this and yes i do think that marching children of against their will is wrong but we are left no choice in this anymore......I would hate to have to send any of my kids to what is called a boot camp, but believe me i would if i had to and it was available.and i had done all i could to help them, but i am lucky my kids have respect and i have to say that is down to me..i respect others ad hope my kids all follow suit...Most of my kids are under 6 and if i can get them to have respect then it shows my beliefs on parenting are right...INHO.......They would be taught the respect they need to become a member of society and not an outcast...

Why should i appologise i said nothing that made you sound like you let your kids do anything out of the ordinary and i hope they still respect you and others. Sound like you did a great job, because you did not follow suit....

I do my best with my kids, just like millions before and after me, but they will go wayward if they are allowed....

being of the older generation means we saw the worst, and the best of what we had but unfortunately today we are restricted with how we raise our kids and what kind of discipline we set....

So how do we stop what is becoming a real big problem with humanity....

[rob murray]

people opinions are what the org is about we all have ours...Ok so you dont advocate what has been done, but what solution do you have.You speak about the problem but i dont hear you mentioning a way out....We all have opinions on this and yes i do think that marching children of against their will is wrong but we are left no choice in this anymore......I would hate to have to send any of my kids to what is called a boot camp, but believe me i would if i had to and it was available.and i had done all i could to help them, but i am lucky my kids have respect and i have to say that is down to me..i respect others ad hope my kids all follow suit...Most of my kids are under 6 and if i can get them to have respect then it shows my beliefs on parenting are right...INHO.......They would be taught the respect they need to become a member of society and not an outcast...

Why should i appologise i said nothing that made you sound like you let your kids do anything out of the ordinary and i hope they still respect you and others. Sound like you did a great job, because you did not follow suit....

I do my best with my kids, just like millions before and after me, but they will go wayward if they are allowed....

being of the older generation means we saw the worst, and the best of what we had but unfortunately today we are restricted with how we raise our kids and what kind of discipline we set....

So how do we stop what is becoming a real big problem with humanity....

Listen either you didnt re read the original post or you choose not to. You say that I didnt offer a way out...for goodness sake go and re read the post you are just showing yourself up here !!!! ( Your fly wee digs are hilarous my dear lol lol lol )

[justine]

NO NEED TO SHOUT bold writing is against the rules. so is trolling...trying to cause an argument..I just wrote my opinions. Which obviously is not to your liking.....>>I AM NOT DEAF OR BLIND>>>>I did not think i was having a fly wee dig...........thats not me.......if i was going to that then i would just come out and say it........
You love the saying RE-READ MY POST..Why, have read them once......
Please less of the familiarities of MY dear....personal chit chat and remarks are for friends....

[rob murray]

I agree that National Service, as it used to be, was not such a good idea. However, the concept of a year (or two) doing training in teamwork, learning valuable interpersonal skills and technical skills, would go a long way into helping them develop as balanced individuals with lots of self respect and self esteem. This is where some form of National Service structure would be useful.



This is all too true. Sadly, the youngsters are skilled at dodging the police and staying one step ahead. Mobile phone technology has assisted greatly in this. Punishing those who buy / provide alcohol for youngsters is one solution. Being a teacher myself (fortunately not bullied) I often hear my students chatting about what booze they drank / what parties they are going to and that they are going to get 'ratted'. Very sad that this attitude exists and I think that the key to solving the problem is to find out the underlying reasons and adressing them. It is not a case that 'there is nothing to do', nor 'we're bored'. As ex-teens ourselves we had nothing provided for us and we were often bored - see below. What are the key differences today? Answer that and we will be some way towards the solution.



I am not sure I agree with you here. Yes, there were areas of the curriculum that we all found boring to one degree or another - mostly because we could not see the relevance to our lives, as teenagers. However, today's curriculum has been changed and tweaked to make it much more interesting and, dare I say it, entertaining. This is, in my mnid, one of the problems. Why should everything be 'entertaining'? Having fun means that attention spans no longer matter - find another form of entertainment once you get bored. The average attention span of an adult is 15-20 minutes; if a youngster has a shorter attention span and their lesson is 1 hour long, of course they will get bored. Part of a lesson is training to concentrate on one thing / task for longer periods of time. Today's leisure culture is for quick, easy and changeable forms of entertainment - no concentration, no need to stay focussed for long periods of time.

Get rid of the TV in the bedroom; get rid of the PC in the bedroom; get rid of the DVD player in the bedroom; get the kids back into joining in with the family or in group activities and perhaps we will see a change this way. Of course, there will be a revolt to contend with!

Basically, society has given youngsters too much freedom, too much choice, This means that they have become 'spoiled' by being able to do what they like. We have given the the freedom to gather in large groups (used to be called 'gangs' in my day) and the technology (and cash) to take advantage of a whole new generation of methods of getting up to mischief.

So..... any ideas?

Yes, although we cant turn back time here and uninvent PC's / social networks / mobiles etc. You are right, we live in an instant celebrity based culture and young people can be left demanding to be entertained. Heres some thoughts :

Education / skills : every skills sector council in the UK has the same issue, they cant attract enough entrants. In my opinion schools should grade at age 14 and have an academic route and a vocational route. Does it take a rocket scientist to work out which group of kids can be the most problematic. The vocational route should be delivered, as far as is possible, with real outside organisations ( offering placements, in house instruction, supplying resources to schools ) This should provide the kids involved at least with an awareness of the requirements of the real world. Those that dont knucke down have to be excluded..where do they go then..this is where I fall down as i dont really know..any suggestions here.

Alcohol....minimum age 21, but id to 30, license fines, hard hitting strategy..is this hypocritical ? the UK / Scotland has a serious issues with alcohol as a whole..this has to be tacled surely.

Policing : use dispersal powers to disperse flash point gatherings.

Investment : youth group / cadet force projects : make these more attractive than hanging around.. Wick has some great projects on the go actually, but more money is needed

Just some thoughts !!

[justine]

Yes, although we cant turn back time here and uninvent PC's / social networks / mobiles etc. You are right, we live in an instant celebrity based culture and young people can be left demanding to be entertained. Heres some thoughts :

Education / skills : every skills sector council in the UK has the same issue, they cant attract enough entrants. In my opinion schools should grade at age 14 and have an academic route and a vocational route. Does it take a rocket scientist to work out which group of kids can be the most problematic. The vocational route should be delivered, as far as is possible, with real outside organisations ( offering placements, in house instruction, supplying resources to schools ) This should provide the kids involved at least with an awareness of the requirements of the real world. Those that dont knucke down have to be excluded..where do they go then..this is where I fall down as i dont really know..any suggestions here.

Alcohol....minimum age 21, but id to 30, license fines, hard hitting strategy..is this hypocritical ? the UK / Scotland has a serious issues with alcohol as a whole..this has to be tacled surely.

Policing : use dispersal powers to disperse flash point gatherings.

Investment : youth group / cadet force projects : make these more attractive than hanging around.. Wick has some great projects on the go actually, but more money is needed

Just some thoughts !!



Just one line to quote...."Those that dont buckle down should be excluded,where do they go then, this is where i fall down."...

Why should they be excluded..Why are they told no You will do this and you will learn..Excluding them is the easy option..Thats why they behave the way they do to get excluded...Its called..Look at me i am being kicked out of school...Hey aint it cool...End Quotation.

[rob murray]

NO NEED TO SHOUT bold writing is against the rules. so is trolling...trying to cause an argument..I just wrote my opinions. Which obviously is not to your liking.....>>I AM NOT DEAF OR BLIND>>>>I did not think i was having a fly wee dig...........thats not me.......if i was going to that then i would just come out and say it........
You love the saying RE-READ MY POST..Why, have read them once......
Please less of the familiarities of MY dear....personal chit chat and remarks are for friends....

Forget it.

[justine]

:roll:Does one not like a bit of friendly advice or criticism. You must take what you give.This is what the org is about...........

Intellectual arguments are harder to sustain that and all out brawl..Dont you think........

[rob murray]

Just one line to quote...."Those that dont buckle down should be excluded,where do they go then, this is where i fall down."...

Why should they be excluded..Why are they told no You will do this and you will learn..Excluding them is the easy option..Thats why they behave the way they do to get excluded...Its called..Look at me i am being kicked out of school...Hey aint it cool...End Quotation.

Yes, and that is why I say "this is where I fall down", I appreciate this is complex, where would these kids go, what is to be done with them ? but why should they not be excluded, why should anyone have to put up with disruption ? Are you saying that no matter how disrputive a kid is they cant be excluded ?

[justine]

Yes, and that is why I say "this is where I fall down", I appreciate this is complex, where would these kids go, what is to be done with them ? but why should they not be excluded, why should anyone have to put up with disruption ? Are you saying that no matter how disrputive a kid is they cant be excluded ?
No i am not saying that they should not be excluded but it is not the only solution
Because this is giving them an easy option......If they know they will be excluded for their outburst they will do it more often and like all things with kids others will follow suit, and you will end up with a classroom full of intelectual idiots ruining it for all thoses that want to learn.....i agree that it is unfair to put all others through this but we just cant keep letting them get away with it....Exclusion is the last thing they need....Why not have a class room where they can go with a teacher or volunteer to sit with them and make them do it...Not giving them the opportunity to do the work will only allow them to grow up thinking this kind of behaviour is exceptable in society, which you and I alike know it is not..
There will never be an easy solution if we allow them to run rings aroung us.We are the adults and they are children..Who is supposed to start the ball rolling with common sence.....

[rob murray]

No i am not saying that they should not be excluded but it is not the only solution
Because this is giving them an easy option......If they know they will be excluded for their outburst they will do it more often and like all things with kids others will follow suit, and you will end up with a classroom full of intelectual idiots ruining it for all thoses that want to learn.....i agree that it is unfair to put all others through this but we just cant keep letting them get away with it....Exclusion is the last thing they need....Why not have a class room where they can go with a teacher or volunteer to sit with them and make them do it...Not giving them the opportunity to do the work will only allow them to grow up thinking this kind of behaviour is exceptable in society, which you and I alike know it is not..
There will never be an easy solution if we allow them to run rings aroung us.We are the adults and they are children..Who is supposed to start the ball rolling with common sence.....

Justine, we both are very passionate about this subject, and I am sorry if I ahave offended you, and yes I do agree with this posting in that exclusion can be seen as an easy and cool option. I was suggesting that maybe some kids may benefit more from having to learn something useful, something to hold their attention. What if even then kids get disruptive, ie what if they cant be made to do anything ? Maybe the answer is to get them to attend school and sit in a supervised room doing nothing all day ?? I dunno !

[justine]

Justine, we both are very passionate about this subject, and I am sorry if I ahave offended you, and yes I do agree with this posting in that exclusion can be seen as an easy and cool option. I was suggesting that maybe some kids may benefit more from having to learn something useful, something to hold their attention. What if even then kids get disruptive, ie what if they cant be made to do anything ? Maybe the answer is to get them to attend school and sit in a supervised room doing nothing all day ?? I dunno !
Hey no worries..I am not easily offended...;)

but you are right it is a passionate thing i have for his I am a mother of nine and have 1 in college, 1 in high school ,2 in primary,2 in nursery, 1 in playgroup and 2 at home...

They all love school and they all love learning..I just had there reports and i am so proud..One comment made about my 13 yr old, was she likes to take herself away ito a corner to get on with her work so she is not distracted by those that wish not to learn,I instilled this in them by telling them no matter what others do you dont need to follow suit...And being proud of my achievemnets as a parent is shown in there reports....

If all parents had the same attitude we would find that this issues brought up in this thread would be fiction and not reality.....

yes the answer is to get them to school make them do the same work wether it be in the class room or in another room.But we have to show they are not getting favouritism but they are being put away so they are not disruopting the class not because they are special...there will never be an easy answer to this, but it is down to us parents to instill this into them when they are young.....

Also the teachers have to have the right attitude to problems..but that is another story....

[percy toboggan]

I see the hang em and flog em brigade are out in force here, reminising about their orderly past, where there was no youth crime, no teacher attacks, no in discipline in schools, a world where kindly beat bobbies had total respect and gained law order by clipping people around the ear., a world where there were little murders cos the rope acted as the deterant Well I dont recognise any of this....

Neither do I.

Neither do I see any mention of flogging and hanging' as you claim. Why oh why can people not read posts properly instead of grouping sentiments into one collective lump and brandishing cliches about.I'm afraid Rob Murray your subsequent arguments are devalued by your gross mis-representation.

The year after I left my school - a Technical High which later became a Comprehensive - a teacher was stabbed. The kid who did it was a wrong 'un and had become widely known as an idiot...the stabbing though, back then in 1968 was national news. So not really rose tinted these specs of mine but I do rememebr being told off by a Copper on two occasions and really 'bricking it' with an inbuilt fear of authority many would consider laughable today.

I was pleased this very morning when I heard (BBC radio 4)that the Government are to introduce non-compulsory overseas service in the third world aimed at teenagers who cannot afford a 'gap year'....this is a step in the right direction, though I reckon we need a much more authoritarian Government...or to sink much further towards the abyss before such measures are compulsory.

Perhaps someone in Westminster scans the org and picked up on auld Percy's post.
Maybe not.

[percy toboggan]

why should my kids, or anybodies kids be frog marched away against their will !!!




What emotive nonsense. Who is suggesting 'frog 'marching' exactly. Further mis-representation. However, such foreign servitude might actually benefit people. Teach them how lucky they are to live in Britain, sleep in a warm, dry bed and have a full belly. Society has turned flabby, steered in part by people who immediately think of ' why should their kids etc. etc.' in this context and not of society in general. We are still a society...just about but it is disintegrating fast....with sozzled adolescents, jails fit to burst and constant introspection with barely a decent idea in sight.

So...your kids might not like it...tough. On the other hand it might be the making of 'em and I would have been delighted if at sixteen my law-abiding, non-drinking non-pot smoking , respectful children had been deployed on a six month a mission to perhaps bring water or some other benefit to some dry dustbowl in a forsaken village in Africa. Such an enterprise could well prove life changing.

It takes an enlightened mind which thinks outside the box to realise the benefits of such a programme....the liberal (often loony left, I used to be amongst them, briefly I suppose) has run out of ideas and frankly it got us into this mess in the first place and it's time for something radical.

[Ricco]

Just one line to quote...."Those that dont buckle down should be excluded,where do they go then, this is where i fall down."...

Why should they be excluded..Why are they told no You will do this and you will learn..Excluding them is the easy option..Thats why they behave the way they do to get excluded...Its called..Look at me i am being kicked out of school...Hey aint it cool...End Quotation.

Perhaps Justine can come up with some suggestion here. I must confess that I am also at a loss as to how to deal with those who completely rebel and throw out everything that is offered to them. Personally, I do agree with the 'expel them' camp - I know that if there is a bad apple in my fruit bowl the only option left to me is to throw it away. But.... I am open to enlightnement. :)

[Highland Laddie]

Sorry I've got to disagree,

I grew up in a village of probably no more that 350 people, we had a local bobby who did clip you round the ear, or if close enough, a good boot in the backside, which was doubled if your parents found out.

but the local bobby never grassed on us.
We accepted that we had done something wrong, but also respected him for doing his duty, but also keeping it on a one to one level, therefore respecting us.

To the best of my knowledge, none on the other children i grew up with were ever in serious trouble.

[Ricco]

What emotive nonsense. Who is suggesting 'frog 'marching' exactly. Further mis-representation. However, such foreign servitude might actually benefit people. Teach them how lucky they are to live in Britain, sleep in a warm, dry bed and have a full belly. Society has turned flabby, steered in part by people who immediately think of ' why should their kids etc. etc.' in this context and not of society in general. We are still a society...just about but it is disintegrating fast....with sozzled adolescents, jails fit to burst and constant introspection with barely a decent idea in sight.

So...your kids might not like it...tough. On the other hand it might be the making of 'em and I would have been delighted if at sixteen my law-abiding, non-drinking non-pot smoking , respectful children had been deployed on a six month a mission to perhaps bring water or some other benefit to some dry dustbowl in a forsaken village in Africa. Such an enterprise could well prove life changing.

It takes an enlightened mind which thinks outside the box to realise the benefits of such a programme....the liberal (often loony left, I used to be amongst them, briefly I suppose) has run out of ideas and frankly it got us into this mess in the first place and it's time for something radical.

Quite agree, Percy. If we think back a few years it is easy to remember a Britain that was perhaps in a greater mess than it is right now, with strikes and all. One person did come along and do something radical. I know that some people will not agree with my point and may even start getting all riled up - but just stop and consider my point first. Maggie Thatcher took the gov't, the unions and an army by the short and curlies and pulled everything together onto the same track. OK, we may agree with some of her methods and principles but, by God, we were all pulling together... were we not? :eek:

[percy toboggan]

The only practical solution for those 'excluded' from school is a sequence of ever more draconian penalties against parents. Amongst these should be the withdrawal of privileges like electricity and gas.

[justine]

Perhaps Justine can come up with some suggestion here. I must confess that I am also at a loss as to how to deal with those who completely rebel and throw out everything that is offered to them. Personally, I do agree with the 'expel them' camp - I know that if there is a bad apple in my fruit bowl the only option left to me is to throw it away. But.... I am open to enlightnement. :)



I did mention in my posts that i do agree with a military type school..Not boot camp..If they insist on being disruptive then why not put them into a school that is run by exmilitry personnel and teachers... then they will have the knowledge that they cant get away with their behavior and the teachers can work in safe surroundings...
I went to a military school...Routine ,discipline, repsect and then education...


Hows that for a kind of soution....When and only when they are ready to return to a civilian school can they do so....
I dont have all the answers but i do see this from both sides of the situation....

[percy toboggan]

Maggie Thatcher took the gov't, the unions and an army by the short and curlies and pulled everything together onto the same track. OK, we may agree with some of her methods and principles but, by God, we were all pulling together... were we not? :eek:

As one who railed against Thatcher, lost a good job in her inaugural recession, propsered a little during her first war and actually 'hated her guts'
I must say a leader of her fortitude and standing is what is desperately required right now. Sadly there are none on the radar...unless you know different.

[Ricco]

The only practical solution for those 'excluded' from school is a sequence of ever more draconian penalties against parents. Amongst these should be the withdrawal of privileges like electricity and gas.


Oooo, nice one Percy. That'll keep the conversation alive for a bit. ;)

[unicorn]

What makes me incredibly angry is the fact that my child goes to school, behaves well and has a desire to learn and is prevented from doing so by the same kids who have no respect for anyone and nothing works on them "it's a BIG thing to be so hard and smart mouthed in school"
Why should my child's education suffer because other's don't seem to give two hoots what their children's behaviour is like.
I don't care that these children obviously don't want to learn but give my child and others who DO a chance to do so.
Exclusion doesn't work for these kid's "it's cool" and obviously their parents don't do much about it as exclusion seems to be regular for them.
What is the answer?

[Ricco]

[quote=justine;348862]If they insist on being disruptive then why not put them into a school that is run by exmilitry personnel and teachers... then they will have the knowledge that they cant get away with their behavior and the teachers can work in safe surroundings...
I went to a military school...Routine ,discipline, repsect and then education...
quote]

The gov't did try something like this many years ago - it was called 'short sharp shock', or something. Didn't seem to work - I think too many 'gooders' said it was an infringement of their rights or something; anyway, it was dropped. :confused

[Ricco]

What makes me incredibly angry is the fact that my child goes to school, behaves well and has a desire to learn and is prevented from doing so by the same kids who have no respect for anyone and nothing works on them "it's a BIG thing to be so hard and smart mouthed in school"
Why should my child's education suffer because other's don't seem to give two hoots what their children's behaviour is like.
I don't care that these children obviously don't want to learn but give my child and others who DO a chance to do so.
Exclusion doesn't work for these kid's "it's cool" and obviously their parents don't do much about it as exclusion seems to be regular for them.
What is the answer?

One thing that might work, Unicorn, is for parents such as yourself to complain loudly to the school, to the local authority and to the local MP about their dissatisfaction. Remember, these bad 'uns are very much in the minority. If enough of the majority speak up then perhaps the pendulum will swing the other way. ;)

[balto]

if your kids are brought up the correct way knowing that they have to respect everyone then surely is will set them of on the right foot, my little boy is just turned 2 and i make sure that he says his please and thankyou's and that he know to say sorry if he bangs into anyone when in the supermarket or if he is walking in the way of someone he knows he has to let them passed, i have been getting him to do this since he could walk about on his own, my 2 daughters did the same and they are now 7 and 10, and i can say that the majority of the time they are nice and polite. i you put these values in your kids at a early age then they will grow up with the respect for others.

[balto]

What makes me incredibly angry is the fact that my child goes to school, behaves well and has a desire to learn and is prevented from doing so by the same kids who have no respect for anyone and nothing works on them "it's a BIG thing to be so hard and smart mouthed in school"
Why should my child's education suffer because other's don't seem to give two hoots what their children's behaviour is like.
I don't care that these children obviously don't want to learn but give my child and others who DO a chance to do so.
Exclusion doesn't work for these kid's "it's cool" and obviously their parents don't do much about it as exclusion seems to be regular for them.
What is the answer?
i remember being in high school and it was the same when i was there especially maths, some of the other pupils thought it was funny so the teacher had to spend most of the lesson dealing with them leaving the ones wanting to learn with nothing to do.