Kosovo

[scotsboy]

It is not often I find myself agreeing with the Russians, but I find myself in their corner along with Serbia against the declaration of independence by Kosovo.

I find the way this has been handled and greeted by the International community in general to be bizarre to say the least.

For me Kosovo, the land is and always will be Serbian. The fact that it is inhabited by ethnic Albanians at the moment is neither here nor there. By invoking UDI this will simply once again open old wounds in the Balkans that will undoubtedly lead to more bloodshed. I really cannot understand why Kosovo has received so much support from the West (sic) in general and the USA in particular. Let’s take another example/analogy – Palestine declares UDI, do you think there would be such widespread acceptance by the West?? And what makes that even more bizarre is that the Palestinians have a greater claim to their land than those currently camped out in Kosovo.

[northener]

I agree,

The Serbs have always had Russia as an ally. To the Western media this will be no doubt vaunted as 'another triumph for democracy' and 'a blow against Russia'.

I'm not a fan of the Serbs at all, but like most things involving the Balkans, life is never simple. If this isn't handled sensibly by the West it could result in bloodshed on a huge scale.

I don't think that it will draw much publicity until it all goes horribly wrong, because the vast majority of the British public can't handle anything that isn't obviously 'good guy v bad guy'.
It won't draw a huge outcry because it wasn't reported in the 'Beano' first - sorry, tabloids.

.

[Valerie Campbell]

The Balkans is a very volitile part of the world. It always has been. This could backfire badly. The west needs to tread carefully. So does Russia.

[j4bberw0ck]

So what are you saying? That the democratic will of the people in Kosovo should be repressed or overlooked to keep the Russians and the Serbs happy? Why? Because the Russians have oil and gas and poison people with radioactive materials, and the Serbs are genocidal maniacs? Or do you have a more subtle point I missed somewhere?

So much for the democratic, freedom-loving history of this country which went to war in the past to protect the right of individuals and individual countries to self-determination.

You should all receive a complimentary copy of Orwell and a compulsory one month living with a Kosovan family to understand what they think before wittering on about how dangerous it is. Democracy, in case you forgot, is supposed to be a noble end, aspired to by all.

Oh, except on the Org, of course. :lol:

[scotsboy]

So what are you saying? That the democratic will of the people in Kosovo should be repressed or overlooked to keep the Russians and the Serbs happy? Why? Because the Russians have oil and gas and poison people with radioactive materials, and the Serbs are genocidal maniacs? Or do you have a more subtle point I missed somewhere?

So much for the democratic, freedom-loving history of this country which went to war in the past to protect the right of individuals and individual countries to self-determination.

You should all receive a complimentary copy of Orwell and a compulsory one month living with a Kosovan family to understand what they think before wittering on about how dangerous it is. Democracy, in case you forgot, is supposed to be a noble end, aspired to by all.

Oh, except on the Org, of course. :lol:

No I am saying that UDI will only lead to further conflict and bloodshed, and the fact that UDI is being supported by the West leaves me feelign a little uneasy, as it appears to be double standards when compared to the Palestinian situation.
The Serbs (although they committed terrible acts in the recent Balkan conflicts) in my opinion have been dealt a bad hand by the International community, past attrocities committed agianst them have been forgotten, and they have been thanked for their support during the WWs by the acceptance into the Internaitonal community of those who fought AGAINST the Allies (i.e. Croatia, Kosovo et al).
While makeing suggestions, maybe you could read and try and understand a bit about the history of the Balkans, then spend a month with some Kosovo Serbs and report back on their experience.
As for Democracy being a noble end, then I would suggest that this is not democracy, as it is not a noble end.

[northener]

Blimey j4bs, Mr Grumpy today! :D

I'm saying that it's a very volatile situation that needs to be handled carefully. I've already stated that I am no fan of the Serbs (on the whole) but as Scotsboy has pointed out, it is not a simple situation to sort out. Regardless of who does what in the Balkans, there will always be a party willing to leap into armed conflict at the drop of a hat.

Here's NATO/KFOR's mandate for the region:

What is the aim of the operation?

The NATO mandate in Kosovo – which is derived from UN Security Council Resolution 1244 and a Military-Technical Agreement between NATO and the Governments of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Serbia – is broad.
NATO’s initial mandate was to deter renewed hostility and threats against Kosovo by Yugoslav and Serb forces; to establish a secure environment and ensure public safety and order; to demilitarise the Kosovo Liberation Army; to support the international humanitarian effort; and coordinate with and support the international civil presence.
Today, KFOR continues to contribute towards maintaining a safe and secure environment in Kosovo for the benefit of all citizens, irrespective of their ethnic origins.

You'll note that as well as keeping the Serbs in check, it also mentions disarming the KLA.

This would suggest that the hostilities and animosity are hardly one-sided.

Going off at a tangent. Did anyone notice that when the Muslims were being wiped out in Srebenica, there was no outrage or offers of support from the Middle East?

.

[j4bberw0ck]

Blimey j4bs, Mr Grumpy today! :D

Aww, hey, northener - I wasn't that grumpy!

I know what you're saying - really, I do. But all too often there's an implied pressure from western media, commentators and politicians that upsetting the status quo is going to make life more difficult for everyone so it shouldn't be allowed. The whole region is highly volatile and it was a worry that on the early coverage of the independence "celebrations" a number of ethnic Serbs were on camera saying they'd be "celebrating" their own way, later, with guns.

They were teenagers and young men, mind, so it might have been all, ahh, p.., sorry, urine and wind but I'm not sure I'd want to take the chance in a country that must be up to its oxters in high-powered weaponry.

However, all that said - it's still the right of the people to self-determine, and to accept the consequences. NATO has to decide its own course of action politically. If it ain't easy, well, I don't suppose NATO delegates are working for minimum wage.

I concede that in the interests of the safety of (say) UK nationals, the UK government may reasonably expect some sort of input into the "how" of becoming independent, but they shouldn't be surprised if it's not asked for.


hostilities and animosity are hardly one-sidedNo, I accept that entirely.


Going off at a tangent. Did anyone notice that when the Muslims were being wiped out in Srebenica, there was no outrage or offers of support from the Middle East?Yes. I did. It's a point I've made before - and the same is true, for instance, when you look at the cash and goods and kind aid from Muslim countries to their Muslim brethren in Palestine who've been kept in refugee camps for 60 years by other Muslim brethren just to make a political point. Saudi Arabia, in conjunction with other members of the Arab League, promised USD55million a month to the Palestinian Authority in 2006; only Saudi pays its share of a few million dollars a month. The rest give nothing. But the amount given by Saudi Arabia as a (w)hole seems to me to be roughly the contents of an average princeling's whisky-and-high-living budget for a month.

Hamas, as a "democratically elected government", refused to renounce violence on Israel and refused to renounce its dedication to Israel's destruction, so several countries decided to withhold aid. Before that, the USA alone was putting in over USD400million a year, and the EU, USD600million a year. Israel used to give USD60million a MONTH in tax revenues to the Palestinians.

What price the Arab League and the Saudis and Syrians and the rest? Certainly, if they put money in to replace that withheld, they could be accused of funding terrorism by supporting an organisation classified as terrorist by the UN but there seems to be a fair bit of evidence that they do that as well anyway :lol:

It all just goes to show that life is cheap for some beliefs. One wonders whether Third World nations give rise to Islam, or whether Islam gives rise to Third World nations. Or whether, in fact, it's a vicious circle.