View Full Version : Aboriginal Apology
Those among you who catch the news now and again will have discovered the story about the Australian Government apologising for their mistreatment of the Aboriginal Peoples of Australia over the course of history. The stories of people who were snatched from their families and 'anglicized' was very touching and it so good to see a responsible government owning up to their injustices of the past. I just hope that their apology is met with forgiveness on the aboriginal side.
I think as Scots we have a lot in common with the Aboriginals. I think there exists within every Scot some degree of English resentment which has become an ingrained part of our culture.
I can't recollect, but have Scotland ever had an apology from our neighbours down south?
Sorry Andrew, you have lost me. I see absolutely no comparison between Australian Aboriginals and the people of Scotland. What is anything has England or the English got to appologise for?? Talking about winning the World Cup in 1966 to often?
If you want to talk resentment towards anyone what about the resentment towards the Scots who murdered fellow Scots for the English?
If you want to talk resentment towards anyone what about the resentment towards the Scots who murdered fellow Scots for the English?
I would say that they did it more for themselves than the English. Personally I am very happy that Bonnie Prince Charlie and his jacobite rabble got their backsides kicked at Culloden.
j4bberw0ck
13-Feb-08, 16:30
Seems to me this whole business of "apologising" for wrongdoings, real and imagined, that took place sometimes hundreds of years ago, is an utter nonsense.
I always got a laugh out of (alleged) descendants of slaves in this country and the US demanding "apologies" (and in the case of one group, even damages!). I mean, if they were lining up to go back to Africa to resume the lifestyle they say they were torn away from, perhaps an apology and a lump sum of money. But since they're sitting there, benefiting from a country in which you don't starve to death if there's no food in the cupboard, with not a thought of going anywhere, then sorry, and all that; they can go whistle for an apology as far as I'm concerned. They're better off than they would have been otherwise.
It doesn't mean I don't think slavery was awful. It does mean I think the demanded apology is a political stunt.
It doesn't mean I don't think slavery was awful. It does mean I think the demanded apology is a political stunt.
True, but I think that if it was simply a political stunt the government of Australia would be digging themselves a hole. If they don't deliver now on making long lasting social and political changes to re-address the wrongs, they will be underfire for playing political games.
Andrew - you haven't explained what you mean about the English. I'm a bit surprised that someone of your faith is trying to stir up anti-English feeling. Where does that come from?
Obviously not from The Book On Turning The Other Cheek...
Yep, should have explained better. I apologise. I'm not attempting to stir up anti-English feeling. I, personally, have no issues with England or the English....my wife and my daughter are English. Although, as a Scot, I'm well aware of being brought up in a culture that certainly wasn't favourable to the English. I was a child growing in the 80s in a working class estate and remember the coal riots, the poll tax riots, Maggie Thatcher and the like.
I'm trying to get to grips with why it is that there is a strong anti-English feeling in the country. If, like others say, the English have nothing to apologise for, then why does the bittereness exist? Why do we have a nationalist government in Scotland when there SHOULD be plenty of incentive and desire to remain in union.
You'll realise I'm in the forgiveness business, its central to Christianity. However, responsibility for actions is also part of the Christian ethos. What I am trying to ask in this discussion is a) do the English have anything to apologise for and b) if they do, would it help deal with this countries ingrained bitterness towards the English?
I am wondering if this nation as a whole would come into better times if there was something that would act as a trigger to bring warmer affection towards our neighbours south of the Border.
I do happen to believe that the anglicisation of Scotland is something of a social crime...the outlawing of the language, culture, clan system, the Highland Clearances, etc etc This is where we share something in common with the Aboriginals. I think these things, and other more recent things, are in the psyche of Scottish culture and I'm wondering what the catalyst needs to be to see those things being burried.
Or, perhaps we're just happy the way we are?
I would suggest that you do not have to be anti-England/English to be pro-Scotland. I would hate to think that the basis for any form of self-determination was hatred or bigotry.
I'm not aware of many people I know being anti-English. There is a lot of bantering goes on but most folks, English and Scottish, get on in Caithness.
The only thing that maybe makes the feeling more prominent is that those with a bias against any incomers are more vociferous whereas the rest of us get on quietly with our lives. Some people just have to blame someone for anything as long as it gets a reaction; there is good and bad amongst us all.
Suppose we'd better apologise for The Crusades whilst we're at it...
Those among you who catch the news now and again will have discovered the story about the Australian Government apologising for their mistreatment of the Aboriginal Peoples of Australia over the course of history. The stories of people who were snatched from their families and 'anglicized' was very touching and it so good to see a responsible government owning up to their injustices of the past. I just hope that their apology is met with forgiveness on the aboriginal side.
I think as Scots we have a lot in common with the Aboriginals. I think there exists within every Scot some degree of English resentment which has become an ingrained part of our culture.
I can't recollect, but have Scotland ever had an apology from our neighbours down south?
You seem to forget that some of the greatest atrocities against the indigenous populations of Australia, New Zealand and Canada were perpetrated by Scots. Some dreadful massacres in Australia and Canada can be laid at the doors of Scots pioneers. Some were cleared from Scotland and still carried out such acts and acts as bad if not worse than those against them in the clearances. As a Scot with cleared ancestors who has researched some of thheir acts I think I can safely make such accusations without accusatiion of bias against myself.
Seems to me this whole business of "apologising" for wrongdoings, real and imagined, that took place sometimes hundreds of years ago, is an utter nonsense.
Just thought I'd point out that there are individuals of the stolen generation that are in their thirties. They remember the families they were taken from and did not imagine being told that their families were dead or had abandoned them.
The film Rabbit-Proof Fence is must to watch for anyone who needs to understand the total inhumane way these people were treated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit-Proof_Fence_(film)
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/rabbitproof_fence/
Cedric Farthsbottom III
13-Feb-08, 22:23
They foon a wee diwater called Australia,and sent them there.No ma words.
I think as Scots we have a lot in common with the Aboriginals. I think there exists within every Scot some degree of English resentment which has become an ingrained part of our culture.
I can't recollect, but have Scotland ever had an apology from our neighbours down south?
Which atrocity do you think the English need to apologise for?:confused
sprint95m
13-Feb-08, 23:35
You seem to forget that some of the greatest atrocities against the indigenous populations of Australia, New Zealand and Canada were perpetrated by Scots.
True. We should also not forget the extermination of the native population in Patagonia, just over a century ago.
Which atrocity do you think the English need to apologise for?:confusedAll of them.[lol]
j4bberw0ck
14-Feb-08, 00:30
Just thought I'd point out
Point away........ my point was wider. The wonderful, cuddly Swedes were compulsorily (and quietly) sterilising people who were "educationally sub-normal" or whatever the acceptable 2008 phrase is, until a relatively few years ago.
The Aboriginals problems pale into insignificance compared with the attempt to eradicate all aboriginals from Tasmania - when having been made reliant on food handouts, those same food handouts were poisoned. Poisoning of food and water also occurred in Australia.
According to the mores of the people there at the time, this was acceptable behaviour. According to modern mores, it was horrendous - up there on a par with Auschwitz, or Belsen. But apologising in an attempt to make it all alright is to try to reduce the cultural importance of the issue. An attempt to score political points on the one side, and on the other, an attempt to allow the aggressors to cement over the cracks.
Whitewater
14-Feb-08, 00:41
Have to agree with you. It is nonsensical as well as insulting to apologise for something that has been perpetuated in the past by our predecessors.
Britain should apologise for the soldiers that collected the severed hands of mau mau combatants in Kenya. What some folk will do for money.
All of them.[lol]
Can you give examples?
Can you give examples?How about the concentration camps in Kenya.
How about the concentration camps in Kenya.
I thought we were on about England apologising to Scotland?
I thought we were on about England apologising to Scotland?Oh, then for their hand in the highland clearances, burning people out of their homes to make way for a sheep or two.
Oh, then for their hand in the highland clearances, burning people out of their homes to make way for a sheep or two.
Was it the English or was it the Scottish that were responsible?
Was it the English or was it the Scottish that were responsible?Mostly the english with the help of some scottish traitors.
Mostly the english with the help of some scottish traitors.
But the truth is that the clearances were a symptom of a global phenomenon which was called the "Industrial revolution". It wasn't drawn on national grounds but on economic grounds. In their own backyard, the English were also cleared out of their rural homes etc and forced to go to the cities. Ultimately, it makes a complete sham of the proposition that the 'clearances' were as a result of the English persecuting the Scottish.
Next example please...
But the truth is that the clearances were a symptom of a global phenomenon which was called the "Industrial revolution". It wasn't drawn on national grounds but on economic grounds. In their own backyard, the English were also cleared out of their rural homes etc and forced to go to the cities. Ultimately, it makes a complete sham of the proposition that the 'clearances' were as a result of the English persecuting the Scottish.
Next example please...You have got to be kidding.[lol]
You have got to be kidding.[lol]
Go and read real history and educate yourself, you might learn something instead of apologistic rubbish.
Yep, should have explained better. I apologise. I'm not attempting to stir up anti-English feeling. I, personally, have no issues with England or the English....my wife and my daughter are English. Although, as a Scot, I'm well aware of being brought up in a culture that certainly wasn't favourable to the English. I was a child growing in the 80s in a working class estate and remember the coal riots, the poll tax riots, Maggie Thatcher and the like.
I'm trying to get to grips with why it is that there is a strong anti-English feeling in the country. If, like others say, the English have nothing to apologise for, then why does the bittereness exist? Why do we have a nationalist government in Scotland when there SHOULD be plenty of incentive and desire to remain in union.
You'll realise I'm in the forgiveness business, its central to Christianity. However, responsibility for actions is also part of the Christian ethos. What I am trying to ask in this discussion is a) do the English have anything to apologise for and b) if they do, would it help deal with this countries ingrained bitterness towards the English?
I am wondering if this nation as a whole would come into better times if there was something that would act as a trigger to bring warmer affection towards our neighbours south of the Border.
I do happen to believe that the anglicisation of Scotland is something of a social crime...the outlawing of the language, culture, clan system, the Highland Clearances, etc etc This is where we share something in common with the Aboriginals. I think these things, and other more recent things, are in the psyche of Scottish culture and I'm wondering what the catalyst needs to be to see those things being burried.
Or, perhaps we're just happy the way we are?
I am afraid Andrew that your knowledge of Scottish, indeed British, History is so shallow and simplistic, and in fact historically wrong, you should stick to religion.
Now Andrew Clark, you seem to totally misunderstand the difference between being ant-English and anti the English media. You fail to see that the so called Anglicisation of Scotland was as much result of action by the lowland Scots as by English intervention.
The Union of the Parliaments came about by the petitioning of the English parliament by Scots parliamentarians and not by any take over of Scotland. Those Scots sold the nation to England for their own benefit. Not English but Scots.
The complex issue of the Clearances cannot be seen as Scots being victimised by the England. Many more Scottish landlords were culpable than English ones.
As someone in the religion business you must surely know that we are not talking about Enland v Scotland in the 1700 – 1800s but about the battle for the crown between Catholic and Protestant groups. The banning of the Gaelic language was an attempt to control the Highland Clans by Lowland Scots and English and had a basis in religion and the Jacobite cause.
In Scotland people do not understand the Religious/Jacobite/English position. I know of ardent Protestants, Rangers supports also, who talk with pride of Bonnie Price Charlie. An amazing mis-understanding of the political and religious situation at the time of the ’45 and where it stands now.
We in the Highlands are mis-treated and mis-understood as much by the Lowland Scots in power as we are by the English. The West of Scotland, indeed Central Scotland Mafia, has a much greater negative influence on us than even the parliament in London.
TBH: "Britain should apologise for the soldiers that collected the severed hands of mau mau combatants in Kenya. What some folk will do for money." - you did not add: 'although this was done to identify the dead by their fingerprints'
Quite normal; Algeria, Vietnam etc for the head to be taken as identification..
Now Andrew Clark, you seem to totally misunderstand the difference between being ant-English and anti the English media. You fail to see that the so called Anglicisation of Scotland was as much result of action by the lowland Scots as by English intervention.
The Union of the Parliaments came about by the petitioning of the English parliament by Scots parliamentarians and not by any take over of Scotland. Those Scots sold the nation to England for their own benefit. Not English but Scots.
The complex issue of the Clearances cannot be seen as Scots being victimised by the England. Many more Scottish landlords were culpable than English ones.
As someone in the religion business you must surely know that we are not talking about Enland v Scotland in the 1700 – 1800s but about the battle for the crown between Catholic and Protestant groups. The banning of the Gaelic language was an attempt to control the Highland Clans by Lowland Scots and English and had a basis in religion and the Jacobite cause.
In Scotland people do not understand the Religious/Jacobite/English position. I know of ardent Protestants, Rangers supports also, who talk with pride of Bonnie Price Charlie. An amazing mis-understanding of the political and religious situation at the time of the ’45 and where it stands now.
We in the Highlands are mis-treated and mis-understood as much by the Lowland Scots in power as we are by the English. The West of Scotland, indeed Central Scotland Mafia, has a much greater negative influence on us than even the parliament in London.
A good post Cattach, and I would argue that the problem is associated with the lack of Scottish history being taught in our schools.
Go and read real history and educate yourself, you might learn something instead of apologistic rubbish.Ooooh, get her.
'It's nothing to do with the fact you are Scottish you understand but we are burning you out of your homes for economic reasons, progress you know'.:lol:
Have to agree with Rheghead - TBH does seem a few pleats short of the full kilt in terms of his/her understanding of Scottish history.
TBH: "Britain should apologise for the soldiers that collected the severed hands of mau mau combatants in Kenya. What some folk will do for money." - you did not add: 'although this was done to identify the dead by their fingerprints'
Quite normal; Algeria, Vietnam etc for the head to be taken as identification..There is nothing whatsoever normal about slicing someones hand off. They were allowed to kill practically anybody they liked as long as they were black, they were keeping kill counts per company you know.:roll:
Have to agree with Rheghead - TBH does seem a few pleats short of the full kilt in terms of his/her understanding of Scottish history.. You should be on stage scotsboy, tell us another one.:lol:
Ooooh, get her.
'It's nothing to do with the fact you are Scottish you understand but we are burning you out of your homes for economic reasons, progress you know'.:lol:
'It's nothing to do with the fact you are poor you understand but we are burning you out of your homes for economic reasons, progress you know'
TBH: "There is nothing whatsoever normal about slicing someones hand off".
..'After the battle, a patrol of 3 legionnaires is sent out to recover the Arab bodies, cut off the heads, and return with the heads for inspection by an officer of the Deuxi\eme Bureau* ' *http://voltigeur1.net/articles.html
(A sheltered life TBH?)
Personally, I think Hezbollah should apologise to Israel for firing 3,970 rockets into Northern Israel in the course of a month in 2006, killing 43 Israeli civilians..
TBH: "There is nothing whatsoever normal about slicing someones hand off".
..'After the battle, a patrol of 3 legionnaires is sent out to recover the Arab bodies, cut off the heads, and return with the heads for inspection by an officer of the Deuxi\eme Bureau* ' *http://voltigeur1.net/articles.html (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://voltigeur1.net/articles.html)
(A sheltered life TBH?)
Personally, I think Hezbollah should apologise to Israel for firing 3,970 rockets into Northern Israel in the course of a month in 2006, killing 43 Israeli civilians..Give as many examples as you like, you cannot justify acts of extreme violence just because they happen. If being worldly wise desensitizes you that much, thank god I lead a sheltered life.
'It's nothing to do with the fact you are poor you understand but we are burning you out of your homes for economic reasons, progress you know'Jesus H Reghead, poor scots or just poor people are you really trying to justify violent eviction because there was an industrial revolution?
Re: TBH. Pleased to read you've lead a sheltered life, but you've taken your postings way off thread, 'fraid can't stop; on way to Tesco Wick for me 5p a litre off!...
Re: TBH. Pleased to read you've lead a sheltered life, but you've taken your postings way off thread, 'fraid can't stop; on way to Tesco Wick for me 5p a litre off!...Run along now.[lol]
The Australian Government seems to be apologising a lot these days see attached
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1236641.stm
This to me is just as bad as the Highland Clearences ever were, how could these religious societies think this was the right thing to do, was there a profit in sending these children to Australia?
The Australian Government seems to be apologising a lot these days see attached
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1236641.stm (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1236641.stm)
This to me is just as bad as the Highland Clearences ever were, how could these religious societies think this was the right thing to do, was there a profit in sending these children to Australia?They did give them an apology and set aside $1m for them. Very decent of them.[disgust]
Jesus H Reghead, poor scots or just poor people are you really trying to justify violent eviction because there was an industrial revolution?
I'm not trying to justify anything, I am merely putting the point across that the Clearances were not an English v Scotland thing as you seem to think they were and hence they are nothing for the UK Government to apologise for. Go read some proper history instead of the tabloid version.
I'm not trying to justify anything, I am merely putting the point across that the Clearances were not an English v Scotland thing as you seem to think they were and hence they are nothing to apologise for. Go read some proper history instead of the tabloid version.The clearances were an english, scottish thing rheghead with a fair bit of help from some traitors from our own side. The industrial revolution does not excuse what was little more than ethnic cleansing, perhaps an attempt by the english to totally eradicate anything that was left of the old clan system. Go read some proper history instead of your rose tinted version of events.;)
j4bberw0ck
14-Feb-08, 16:45
perhaps an attempt by the english to totally eradicate anything that was left of the old clan system
TBH, I'm curious; do you actually believe this load of drivel, or are you an even bigger wind-up merchant than Rheghead? Do tell.......... I mean, your track record of misleading wind-up material is pretty good, what with being so old a few weeks ago that you couldn't help being anti-English and couldn't help being puzzled, and then not being maybe not so old, and now being young enough and lucid enough apparently to mix it with the Rhegheads of this world.....
Absolute balls TBH. The clearances were a failed attempt at inceasing the revenue from the land - nothing whatsoever to do with Nationality or ethnicity.
They were bahhhhh'd times...
Absolute balls TBH. The clearances were a failed attempt at inceasing the revenue from the land - nothing whatsoever to do with Nationality or ethnicity.
So true Scotsboy; money as usual is behind it all. It is amazing what some people are capable of in the name of "doing one's job"; 'twas prevalent then and still is to this day.......you can call it racism or any other 'ism......the basics always comes back to hard cash and your place in the company.
silverfox57
14-Feb-08, 17:30
seems to have raised quiet a stir, andrew c with your post on aboriginal apoloby,the good book says he that is without sin to cast first stone.think we in caithness should forgive our ancestors for bad bay on the ord and sutherland shire .for the rich taking soon much from the very poor familys of our county.
Just back from Tesco Wick; spent me 50 quid and bought me unleaded at 98.9p a litre.. Thurso is offering the same - BUT you'll have to go Wick (Obviously)
Right, see my comment ref Hezbollah was ignored, so TBH isn't who I thought it might be.
However, you are working on the premise that the English should apologise to the Scots, so we'll clearly have to look at the rest of the world:
Canada, obviously all the European folk (A LOT of Scots) there will have to apologise to the native Inuit.
USA. King George had a go at owning the country till the 'war of Independence' but don't be misled that the Americans beat the English - as in fact the settlers were still English at that time.. Anyway, USA apologise to the Native Americans..
Mexico,anyone out' who's got Spanish blood and apologise to the Olmecs, Mayas & Aztecs
Guatemala: Spanish out and apologise to the Mayans
Belize Brits, Spaniards apologise to the Mayas
Honduras Spaniards apologise to the Lencas & Mayas
El Salvador Portuguese / Spaniards apologise to the Pipil and Aztecs
Nicaragua Spanish apologise to the Aztecs and Maya
Costa Rica Spanish apologise to the Caribs, Borucas, Chibchas & Diquis
Panama Spanish apologise to the Cuevas and Cocole
Colombia Spanish apologise to the Chibcha,
Venezuela Spanish apologise to the Carib, Arawak and Ilanos
Ecuador Spanish apologise to the Canari, Quittu & Caras
Peru Spanish apologise to the Inca..
Well that's North/South America, shall we go to Europe? Germans; Apologise to this lot you: Poland, France, Luxemburg, Belgium, Holland, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Russia, and some islands in Britain, In Africa: Morocco Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Greece.
Of course the French? they should apologise to Russia, when was that?: 1812 about the same time as the Highland Clearances notable involved; James Loch, William Young, Patrick Sellar (Scots?)
And so it goes on, is there ANY country on earth that does not have to apologise?
A totally fruitless argument started by Andrew C (for some obscure purpose)
Dog-eared
14-Feb-08, 18:21
I say it's a good job we had Mad Max to win a few Scots battles.
" FREEEEDOOOMMMMM !! " ;)
I say it's a good job we had Mad Max to win a few Scots battles.
" FREEEEDOOOMMMMM !! " ;)
Did he have to say sorry to the Jews recently?
TBH, I'm curious; do you actually believe this load of drivel, or are you an even bigger wind-up merchant than Rheghead? Do tell.......... I mean, your track record of misleading wind-up material is pretty good, what with being so old a few weeks ago that you couldn't help being anti-English and couldn't help being puzzled, and then not being maybe not so old, and now being young enough and lucid enough apparently to mix it with the Rhegheads of this world.....
You don't do so bad at being a self professed wind-up merchant yourself[lol]
northener
14-Feb-08, 20:05
Britain should apologise for the soldiers that collected the severed hands of mau mau combatants in Kenya. What some folk will do for money.
TBH, My dad fought the Mau Mau in Kenya, he was in the Kings African Rifles.
He couldn't stop laughing when I commented on your post and he then made some unrepeatable comments about 'armchair experts' and 'not having a clue'.
.
northener
14-Feb-08, 20:15
Back on topic.
Bekisman as made the most valid point here. The current fad - because that's all it is - for apology is meaningless and merely serves to inflame some things that are best left to lie.
Meaningful action and education about mistakes we have all made in the past is the way forward, not cheap publicity stunts that pander to the gullible and no-one else.
No-one would deny that the Highland Clearances were dark days for Scotland, yet TBH has shown how truth can be twisted to suit certain ends and used to re-inflame old grievances. 'Apologies' merely add fuel to the fire of ignorance and irrational hatred.
.
Whitewater
14-Feb-08, 23:35
TBH if you don't want to believe who was responsible for the clearances you can take a look at the glass windows in church about 5 miles inland from Ardgay (on the old Caithness to Inverness road). many members of the clan Ross were held in the churchyard there before being transported. Many of the people etched massages on the windows, very poignant. I have photographs of the etchings and I have tried to scan them into here but the reproduction is not so good. Also you can take a walk up into the hill and see the remains of the small villages which were cleared. (about 30years since I was there, but they should still be visible)
The clearance were NOT English led, they were assisted by government troops, some of which were English. Sir John Sinclair (one of the family ancestors) was the main instigator in the north. In his statistical account he mentioned that sheep were more valuable than people and not so damaging on the land. Sure the nobility got help from the government. Read John Prebbles book on the clearances and you will know who was responsible (it was slightly slanted in an attempt divert the blame). However, I do realise that the clearances have left deep scars in many families that still exist today.
Absolute balls TBH. The clearances were a failed attempt at inceasing the revenue from the land - nothing whatsoever to do with Nationality or ethnicity.Displacing the scots from the highlands was not ethnic cleansing rather a failed business venture in the name of capital establishment.... Right on scotsboy.:lol:
TBH, My dad fought the Mau Mau in Kenya, he was in the Kings African Rifles.
He couldn't stop laughing when I commented on your post and he then made some unrepeatable comments about 'armchair experts' and 'not having a clue'.
.So the collection of severed hands for a bounty of 5 shillings is all a lie, the rape, torture, illegal killings and theft of property were all lies, I stand corrected. Idi Amin served in the Kings African rifles to, maybe they Knew each other?
So the collection of severed hands for a bounty of 5 shillings is all a lie, the rape, torture, illegal killings and theft of property were all lies, I stand corrected. Idi Amin served in the Kings African rifles to, maybe they new each other?
TBH, I may be wrong, but was it not the Mau Mau, that were doing the rape torture, illegal killings?
TBH, I may be wrong, but was it not the Mau Mau, that were doing the rape torture, illegal killings?Heres a bit of info Golach:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/oct/06/kenya.topstories3
TBH, I'm curious; do you actually believe this load of drivel, or are you an even bigger wind-up merchant than Rheghead? Do tell.......... I mean, your track record of misleading wind-up material is pretty good, what with being so old a few weeks ago that you couldn't help being anti-English and couldn't help being puzzled, and then not being maybe not so old, and now being young enough and lucid enough apparently to mix it with the Rhegheads of this world.....I didn't realise you couldn't be senile and mix it with Rheghead.[lol] Just kidding, Rheghead gives as good as he gets and is not adverse to the odd wind-up himself.;)
Course, the prospect of a nice wodge of wonga is helping their memories on these 'atrocities'....
Heres a bit of info Golach:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/oct/06/kenya.topstories3
If Britain is such an abuser of human rights, why does every soul and sundry from Afrika want to come and live here? Work that one out if you are such an expert on this subject!:roll:
If Britain is such an abuser of human rights, why does every soul and sundry from Afrika want to come and live here? Work that one out if you are such an expert on this subject!:roll:Jobs, a better way of life, welfare, free healthcare, etc and blah blah blah. Why do you live here?
Course, the prospect of a nice wodge of wonga is helping their memories on these 'atrocities'....Maybe they deserve a nice wodge of wonga in their wallets for their trouble.
Dog-eared
15-Feb-08, 04:05
Clearances history here http://www.wildcountry.uk.com/Clearances%20website/nClearance%20History4.html
Dog-eared
15-Feb-08, 04:07
Glencalvie clearances here http://www.highlandclearances.info/clearances/clearances_croick.htm
They were led to believe by their own minister that they were being moved by the Duke of Sutherland in Dunrobin Castle because they had sinned.
What sin this was they could not grasp.
An easy move against such humble , God - fearing and trusting people who had lived untroubled in the glens for hundreds of years.
Displacing the scots from the highlands was not ethnic cleansing rather a failed business venture in the name of capital establishment.... Right on scotsboy.:lol:
Firstly I am not sure that the people were Scots;) And secondly they were removed by their own, therefore not on the basis of their ethnic origin - so no it was not ethnic cleansing.
TBH, My dad fought the Mau Mau in Kenya, he was in the Kings African Rifles.
He couldn't stop laughing when I commented on your post and he then made some unrepeatable comments about 'armchair experts' and 'not having a clue'.
.
His comment proves nothing. I know a lot of men who were in the armed forces and did not have a clue. Indeed that is why they were there - they could get nothing to employ them limited abilities and commonsense elsewhere.
northener
15-Feb-08, 09:23
So the collection of severed hands for a bounty of 5 shillings is all a lie, the rape, torture, illegal killings and theft of property were all lies, I stand corrected. Idi Amin served in the Kings African rifles to, maybe they Knew each other?
Rape, torture, killings, theft - absolutely right - the Mau Mau were a pretty ruthless bunch. Let's not forget attempting to board school buses to hand-grenade or machete the kids on board.
Yes, my dad did know Idi Amin. He wasn't a very good corporal.
BTW, the old boy has a great respect for the Kenyans and spoke highly of Jomo Kenyatta. I will assume you know who he was.
He can tell you the ins and outs of all tribes, speak the language (still fluently after all these years) and understands the thought processes that go on in the extremely complex loyalties and rivalries that make up Kenyan society.
Witness today's problems in Kenya - perhaps you'd care to comment on this in a seperate thread? You obviously speak from a position of knowledge.
So I think I'll believe someone who speaks from personal experience and knowledge, as opposed to ill-informed opinion.- Which is where we came in......
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northener
15-Feb-08, 09:26
His comment proves nothing. I know a lot of men who were in the armed forces and did not have a clue. Indeed that is why they were there - they could get nothing to employ them limited abilities and commonsense elsewhere.
Cattach, I'll treat that remark with the contempt it deserves.
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His comment proves nothing. I know a lot of men who were in the armed forces and did not have a clue. Indeed that is why they were there - they could get nothing to employ them limited abilities and commonsense elsewhere.
Well let's be grateful that all those stupid, unemployable men fought and died for their country - saved the brainy ones having to.......
[disgust]
Cattach; " Indeed that is why they [armed forces] were there - they could get nothing to employ them limited abilities and commonsense elsewhere."
That's a pretty wide brush you are using there Cattach!
'Tommy'; Rudyard Kipling
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot;
His comment proves nothing. I know a lot of men who were in the armed forces and did not have a clue. Indeed that is why they were there - they could get nothing to employ them limited abilities and commonsense elsewhere.
Absolutely no need for this kind of post - I suggest you apologise. This is a fascinating discussion and I've learnt a lot from it, insults add nothing.
Rape, torture, killings, theft - absolutely right - the Mau Mau were a pretty ruthless bunch. Let's not forget attempting to board school buses to hand-grenade or machete the kids on board. Yes there were atrocities committed on both sides, nobody said there wasn't.
Yes, my dad did know Idi Amin. He wasn't a very good corporal.Damn good at the old Queensbury rules apparently.
BTW, the old boy has a great respect for the Kenyans and spoke highly of Jomo Kenyatta. I will assume you know who he was. Wasn't he the C.E.O of the Kenya Coffee Growers Association?
He can tell you the ins and outs of all tribes, speak the language (still fluently after all these years) and understands the thought processes that go on in the extremely complex loyalties and rivalries that make up Kenyan society.It's always nice to learn the language and culture of the natives as your country bleeds them dry.
Witness today's problems in Kenya - perhaps you'd care to comment on this in a seperate thread? You obviously speak from a position of knowledge.You start the thread and I'll get round to commenting on it
TBH if you don't want to believe who was responsible for the clearances you can take a look at the glass windows in church about 5 miles inland from Ardgay (on the old Caithness to Inverness road). many members of the clan Ross were held in the churchyard there before being transported. Many of the people etched massages on the windows, very poignant. I have photographs of the etchings and I have tried to scan them into here but the reproduction is not so good. Also you can take a walk up into the hill and see the remains of the small villages which were cleared. (about 30years since I was there, but they should still be visible)
The clearance were NOT English led, they were assisted by government troops, some of which were English. Sir John Sinclair (one of the family ancestors) was the main instigator in the north. In his statistical account he mentioned that sheep were more valuable than people and not so damaging on the land. Sure the nobility got help from the government. Read John Prebbles book on the clearances and you will know who was responsible (it was slightly slanted in an attempt divert the blame). However, I do realise that the clearances have left deep scars in many families that still exist today.I've heard about croick church, would love to see it someday.
Cattach; "Indeed that is why they were there - they could get nothing to employ them limited abilities and commonsense elsewhere". Moving on from there I see the Centre for Policy Studies* suggests that former soldiers should be retrained to teach in inner city schools in order to tackle disruptive behaviour and bring their own brand of "moral authority" to the classroom.
Well the Yanks have sent 16,000 retiring soldiers into inner city schools, and it's working.
I like: "Ex-servicemen are sure of their own moral authority and are not intimidated," (they are damn right there!)
* http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,,2257070,00.html (http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,,2257070,00.html)
Whitewater
15-Feb-08, 16:16
Well let's be grateful that all those stupid, unemployable men fought and died for their country - saved the brainy ones having to.......
[disgust]
Brilliant post. Well said.
I know a lot of men who were in the armed forces and did not have a clue. Indeed that is why they were there - they could get nothing to employ them limited abilities and commonsense elsewhere.
You mean they were just cannon fodder?
It is true. There was a place for them and they knew their place I suppose.
I think you were quite aware that not all soldiers fall into that category and you didn't say or mean that even though folks are too quick to condemn your post.
Well-done Rheghead, you tell him what he meant to say
northener
15-Feb-08, 19:49
OK, In an attempt to combine Kenya with the thread:
Britain apologises to Kenya for something that happens 50 years ago.
Those in Kenya who suffered at the hands of the Mau Mau then demand an apology from their former persecutors/freedom fighters (take your pick).
Gentlemen who fought with the Mau Mau are hardly likely to apologise as it doesn't exactly fit in with their position as a 'victim'. If you don't believe me, why hasn't there been a mass breakout of apologies in Northern Ireland by PIRA, UDA et al.
Result? Old differences boil up to the surface. Differences that are very real and very dangerous. Next stop - mass unrest and breakdown of society. - Sound familiar? Rwanda? Zimbabwe? Somalia? Angola? The list is crushingly endless.
Now, that would really help move a country on, wouldn't it? To try and instil ridiculous Western media stunts onto a African state that is still on the road to true stabilisation would show a complete lack of understanding of the African psyche and the problems encountered in African politics.
Bad Things were instigated on both sides, just the same as everywhere else on the planet. To take child-like and simplistic good guy/bad guy stances is completely laughable and shows a complete lack of understanding of the subject matter.
I don't mean you personally, TBH, when I say that.
BTW Uncle Idi was a bit handy, but he had no table manners!
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