View Full Version : a call to prayer....
percy toboggan
03-Feb-08, 09:59
...whether you want one or not?
There is a campaign underway in Oxford, surely the quintissential English city to resist plans to broadcast an amplified 'call to prayer' from the large new mosque which has been built there, in an area incidentally where few muslims live.
Up to the three times a day it is feared, and seven days a week.
What do you think of these plans , and would you be happy to have such an instruction imposed on you in your town, or village thrice daily? Or perhaps, even only once a week like the peel of Sunday church bells. The 'call' is delivered through loudspeakers in classical Arabic, which even many of the respondents do not understand.
I've heard it myself in Tunisia, where it seemed totally appropriate, if a little noisy at five am.
This an important questions which might shape future trends in many of Britian's towns and cities.
5 times a day Percy old boy.
Not required in the UK I would suggest.
helenwyler
03-Feb-08, 10:23
Up to the three times a day it is feared, and seven days a week.[/I]
Percy, it's surely important to get current information accurate before being alarmist!
I know Oxford well, and am undecided about how I'd feel, but the imam of the mosque has stated that the call to prayer would be once a week, on Friday afternoons.
percy toboggan
03-Feb-08, 11:35
surely the thin edge of wedge Helen. The tone of my post was far from 'alarmist' either. What I find a little 'alarming' is your description of it as such.
DeHaviLand
03-Feb-08, 11:56
Personally, I cant see the point in it. Firefox now do an add-on for your web-browser showing prayer times for any location in the world:D. Much more civilised.
Percy, it's surely important to get current information accurate before being alarmist!
I know Oxford well, and am undecided about how I'd feel, but the imam of the mosque has stated that the call to prayer would be once a week, on Friday afternoons.
So much like the church bells on a Sunday, then....and a lot less likely to wake you up when you're having a lie-in!
when I am in Turkey the 5am calling to prayer never wakens me at all. I actually like to hear the calling to prayer.
lol, percy, try living on a small Greek island for a while as I did -the clattering and clashing of the many, many church bells is none too melodic, and you hear them for every service on every day at every church, with longer and louder peels thrown in for engagements, weddings, anniversaries and christenings as well as the slow single tolling bell for deaths and funerals.:roll:
Not being of the Greek orthodox faith, they were irrelevant to me and to many other folk, locals included.
Why not wait until you have the facts rather than going by what "it is feared" and "surely the thin edge of the wedge" with the implication that anyone who thinks otherwise is being worryingly naive?
Then I would be more than happy to debate the point with you! :)
For those who want a bit more information on this, here's a link: (sorry link not working for some, heres the article:)
Insensitive and unduly provocative? A mosque's call to prayer amid Oxford's spires
24th January 2008 (Daily Mail)
One of the joys of being in Marrakesh, or a Muslim city anywhere, is hearing the morning call to prayer. There is unquestionably something moving about this haunting, age-old invocation to worship.
One might admittedly sometimes be irritated by being woken up in the early hours: calls to prayer in Muslim countries are often amplified on a loudspeaker, and can be heard at a great distance.
So what? If the inhabitants have no problems with the noise levels, an outsider is hardly in a position to object.
Why, then, am I queasy about the proposal that the enormous new Oxford Mosque, when it is finally completed in nine months or so, should have a call to prayer amplified by a loudspeaker?
According to a spokesman for the mosque, the hope is that there could be three two-minute calls a day, though it will settle for something less if that is not deemed acceptable by the council.
To judge by the protests at a recent public meeting in my home city, many people feel very strongly that the mosque should not be permitted to have an amplified call to prayer.
Most of these people are nice liberal folk, Oxford being a nice liberal city, where even David Cameron's progressive Tories are regarded as a bit over the top.
Are these liberal objectors in fact closet fascists? There are several thousand Muslims among Oxford's population of 150,000. Most, if not all, are British citizens who pay their taxes like everyone else. If bells should ring out from Oxford's numerous colleges and churches, how can we object if this splendid new mosque - one of whose chief supporters, incidentally, is Prince Charles - should broadcast its call to prayer for a mere six minutes a day?
There is an obvious practical objection. Most of the people who live close to the mosque are not Muslim. They would therefore have to endure daily calls to prayer which made no sense to them, and might irritate them.
The vast majority of the city's Muslims live at least a mile away. If the wind is in the right direction, they might just hear the sound from the loudspeaker, but for much of the time it will be lost on them, while non-Muslims will have to put up with it.
So this is my question. Why, if the call to prayer will be heard by comparatively few Muslims, should the Oxford Mosque be so keen to broadcast it, especially in view of the opposition of so many local people?
After all, it is not as though mosques in this country normally feel required to broadcast a call to prayer. I am told by a Muslim expert that the use of a loudspeaker is unusual in Britain.
A call to prayer can in fact be delivered - and often is - within a mosque. The call invariably comprises assertions about the greatness of God, the goodness of God, the fact that there is only one God, and the role of Mohammed as his messenger.
In a Muslim country there are commonly five calls to prayer a day (sometimes as early as two o'clock in the morning) and these would often be delivered by loudspeaker.
However, mainstream Muslim teaching accepts that these practices can be varied or suspended in non-Muslim countries, where the customs of the non-Muslim majority should be respected.
Some people argue that since it is illegal to build a church in some more extreme Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia, we should not allow the construction of mosques here. This is nonsense.
In a free society, people should be allowed to worship as they please, so long as they do not interfere with the freedom of others. Thank God we are unlike Saudi Arabia in this respect.
Yet the Oxford Mosque, even before it is finished, is in danger of abusing the freedom it enjoys. If the call to prayer serves no obvious practical purpose, then it could be reasonably interpreted as a form of assertion, a way reminding the non-Muslim inhabitants of Oxford that there is a mosque in their midst.
When the Oxford Mosque was first planned, we were told by Prince Charles and others that it would be an enlightened institution which fostered greater understanding between Christians and Muslims and those of no particular religion.
Yet even before it is completed, it is proposing practices, whether unthinkingly or deliberately-which threaten to antagonise some non-Muslims who are of a liberal disposition. This is surely short-sighted, since it must be in the interests of the Oxford Mosque to have happy relations with its neighbours. It is also insensitive, and possibly purposely provocative.
It cannot be right - and it is certainly not necessary - to risk offending the sensibilities of the non-Muslim majority in the city. way of reminding the non-Muslim inhabitants of Oxford that there is a mosque in their midst.
Perhaps once the Oxford Mosque realises the damage that it may be doing to itself and to the maintenance of happy relations with its neighbours, it will withdraw its proposal.
There are unfortunately some extremist mosques in Britain, and it would be very depressing if the Oxford Mosque turned out to be one of their number.
According to Dr Barham Salih, the deputy Prime Minister of Iraq (and a Sunni Muslim), who recently visited Blackburn, some mosques in that town would be banned if they were in Iraq because of the extremist messages they preach.
He is reported to have said that he saw some books on sale that would have been illegal in his own country.
One of the very worst has been the Green Lane Mosque in Birmingham.
A Channel 4 programme-last year - attacked by the police but recently vindicated by the official regulator - showed a preacher in the mosque declaring that Christians and Jews are the enemies of Muslims, that gays should be thrown off mountains, and that woman are created "deficient" by Allah.
This would seem to have been exceptional, and there is no reason whatsoever to suppose that the Oxford Mosque falls into the same category. But I would be reassured if it demonstrated its breadth of mind by withdrawing a proposal which is at odds with mainstream Muslim practice throughout most of this country.
The Bishop of Oxford, the Rt Rev John Pritchard, says that those opposed to the plan should "relax" and enjoy "community diversity".
Hasn't he got the wrong end of the stick? An insistence on an amplified call to prayer would suggest that it is the Oxford Mosque, rather than its critics, which is no great respecter of community feelings. Which reasonable Christian would expect church bells to ring out in a Muslim city? Throughout the Muslim world, mosques can broadcast the call to prayer exactly as they deem fit. But surely not amid the dreaming spires Oxford that still proclaim a Christian heritage. Oxford is the home of many Muslims, but it is not a Muslim city.
it says article not found
SandTiger
03-Feb-08, 13:06
it says article not found
Hi Unicorn, put 'Oxford' in the search engine on the top right hand corner - Then scroll down the results, it's near the bottom of the page ;)
I'd be interested in seeing percy's source because the article I saw said one call to prayer once a week, on a Friday.... which pretty much equates with church practices.
j4bberw0ck
03-Feb-08, 13:11
It was reported as "News" a month ago (Christmas Eve, coincidentally :lol: , though updated in January) >>>here<<< (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=504373&in_page_id=1770)
Presumably didn't get people going enough so repeated as Comment >>>here<<< (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/columnists/columnists.html?in_article_id=510059&in_page_id=1772&in_author_id=244), which is what Percy's seen, perhaps.
I think it's a storm in a teacup. The regs on noise and nuisance would stop it if it were 5 times a day. Or three.
Don't panic, Captain Mainwaring, we're not doomed yet, though I grant you from where you's sitting it must be a worry to see some parts of the country become a little less Britain and a little more Istanbul or Karachi with every passing day.
got it thanks sandtiger:D
percy toboggan
03-Feb-08, 13:21
lol, percy, try living on a small Greek island for a while as I did -the clattering and clashing of the many, many church bells is none too melodic, and you hear them for every service on every day at every church, with longer and louder peels thrown in for engagements, weddings, anniversaries and christenings as well as the slow single tolling bell for deaths and funerals.:roll:
Not being of the Greek orthodox faith, they were irrelevant to me and to many other folk, locals included.
Why not wait until you have the facts rather than going by what "it is feared" and "surely the thin edge of the wedge" with the implication that anyone who thinks otherwise is being worryingly naive?
Then I would be more than happy to debate the point with you! :)
The clatters and clangs ofGreek orthodoxy, in Greece is fine by me. If I didn't want to hear it I'd stay away.If we wait until the facts emerge and this instruction is broadcast even weekly, then it is too late. The practice should be outlawed on grounds of public nuisance. Seems to me the locals of Oxford have been decent enough to allow the building of a mosque in the first place. You chose the term 'worryingly naive' and I won't quarrel with it. When this practice is up and running do you think the callers or the responders will be happy to 'debate the point with you' ?
Inches and miles spring to mind. Some of these people do not know when to stop pushing.
Answer the thrust of the question Angela - would you like this in your neck of the woods? I'm not talking holidays here I'm talking around your corner.
Big hughie
03-Feb-08, 13:23
Hmmm Am i missing something but isnt the call to prayer just that I mean the call to engage in a peaceful religeous act ??? or is it that because its Islam it means that it might be not be ???? Theres an awful lot of bell ringing in the Christian churches around the world which is also noisy but you dont hear to many calls to stop them !!
The other thing I seem to be missing is this is about Oxford not too far from London .....A long way from Caithness
Beeeg Hugheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
NickInTheNorth
03-Feb-08, 13:27
Answer the thrust of the question Angela - would you like this in your neck of the woods? I'm not talking holidays here I'm talking around your corner.
I can't answer for Angela, but for me I can say an unqualified yes! No problem at all.
Wouldn't care if it was once a day or five times a day. In the scheme of modern urban life it's not noise at all. And I'd rather hear a call to prayer than a truck revving it's engine.
Big hughie
03-Feb-08, 13:36
"parts of the country become a little less Britain and a little more Istanbul"
Hmm Turkey is a secular country ..and its Army will try to keep it that way!!!
Here we are in the UK passing comment when this act is still in force with respect to the Royal family .........................
"Succession is regulated by the Act of Settlement, defining that only Protestant descendants of Princess Sophia - the Electress of Hanover and and granddaughter of King James I - are eligible to succeed. Roman Catholics or those married to Roman Catholics are automatically excluded.
Beeg Hugheeeeeeeeee
Surely after all these years they don't need reminding when they should pray?
Just as church bells making a racket spoils this atheists quiet Sunday, so the wailing of some amplified out of tune male will spoil the peace and quiet of all Oxford atheists...
Perhaps all atheists should band together and complain that their rights to live a religious free life is being infringed by the caterwauling and bell ringing of these places?
percy toboggan
03-Feb-08, 13:37
The other thing I seem to be missing is this is about Oxford not too far from London .....A long way from Caithness
Beeeg Hugheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
I take your point and no doubt the good people of Caithness will ignore the thread if they choose.
However if one decides to bury ones head in the sand, in however quiet a corner of the beach, something sometime might creep up and bite you on the bum !
The clatters and clangs ofGreek orthodoxy, in Greece is fine by me. If I didn't want to hear it I'd stay away.If we wait until the facts emerge and this instruction is broadcast even weekly, then it is too late. The practice should be outlawed on grounds of public nuisance. Seems to me the locals of Oxford have been decent enough to allow the building of a mosque in the first place. You chose the term 'worryingly naive' and I won't quarrel with it. When this practice is up and running do you think the callers or the responders will be happy to 'debate the point with you' ?
Inches and miles spring to mind. Some of these people do not know when to stop pushing.
Answer the thrust of the question Angela - would you like this in your neck of the woods? I'm not talking holidays here I'm talking around your corner.
It wouldn't bother me at all, percy.
Now perhaps you'd answer my question -are your objections on the grounds of what you see as intrusive noise nuisance, or because you object to this particular religion? Or indeed both? :confused
percy toboggan
03-Feb-08, 13:41
Surely after all these years they don't need reminding when they should pray?
Just as church bells making a racket spoils this atheists quiet Sunday, so the wailing of some amplified out of tune male will spoil the peace and quiet of all Oxford atheists...
Perhaps all atheists should band together and complain that their rights to live a religious free life is being infringed by the caterwauling and bell ringing of these places?
I think the peel of churchbells, once a week is so embroidered into the fabric of life in this country that we would be all the poorer if it were discontinued.
The sound is more a signal than an instruction...and we need to keep them...they come in handy in the event of invasion. Not that I'm being alarmist.
percy toboggan
03-Feb-08, 13:43
It wouldn't bother me at all, percy.
Now perhaps you'd answer my question -are your objections on the grounds of what you see as intrusive noise nuisance, or because you object to this particular religion? Or indeed both? :confused
Both. Although the growth of Islam in certain areas of Britain is marginally less worrying than having my peace shattered by the same indechiperable wailing on any kind of regular basis.
It's the 21st century - let the Imams send their faithful SMS texts to report for duty....
Big hughie
03-Feb-08, 14:12
"Although the growth of Islam in certain areas of Britain is marginally less worrying than having my peace shattered by the same indechiperable wailing on any kind of regular basis."
Whats the source of the worry Theological ,way of life ????
Beeg Hugheeeeeee
j4bberw0ck
03-Feb-08, 15:27
Here's something else for y'all to get excited about! (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=5HVT0OZ4PLYQLQFIQMFSFFOAVCBQ 0IV0?xml=/news/2008/02/03/nbenefit103.xml)
j4bberw0ck
03-Feb-08, 16:01
And while we're at it, Percy, you mean ..................... (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/peal)
not ..................... (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/peel)
Just on a point of information. Sorry if anyone's now greatly offended. My shorts await your mastication :lol::lol:
j4bberw0ck
03-Feb-08, 16:06
Ridiculous............
Not at all. The etymology of the word "peal" is quite definitive. :lol::lol:
I'll get my coat......
percy toboggan
03-Feb-08, 16:31
Here's something else for y'all to get excited about! (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=5HVT0OZ4PLYQLQFIQMFSFFOAVCBQ 0IV0?xml=/news/2008/02/03/nbenefit103.xml)
I fully expect people to sound sanguine about multiple allowances for multiple wives...so many are afraid to speak their mind these days after all. Somehow the masses have been silenced for fear of sounding anti-foreigner. Brings tears to the eyes of an opinionated straight talker...although there are still a few left we're an endangered species....much to the delight of a few no doubt.
percy toboggan
03-Feb-08, 16:40
"Although the growth of Islam in certain areas of Britain is marginally less worrying than having my peace shattered by the same indechiperable wailing on any kind of regular basis."
Whats the source of the worry Theological ,way of life ????
Beeg Hugheeeeeee
The source of the worry sir, is a hostility to having the ways of a minority foisted upon the majority. The linked article in the Daily Mail expresses my feelings in a far better way than I can, with my limited High School education and innate distrust of those who may, just may wish us harm in the long run.
Theology is largely a busted flush from my point of view, though I sometimes regret its irrelevance to most folk today. As for 'way of life' there are elements of Islam which we could employ to our greater good...the British 'way of life' as you put it seems to have descended to an individualistic free for all ruled for many by celebrity, football and booze.
Wherever our eventual salvation lies I feel sure that amplified catterwauling in a foreign tongue has absolutely no relevance.
northener
03-Feb-08, 16:41
Calling the Faithful to prayer? Fine by me. I like to hear it.
Using a loudspeaker in a community where everyone has a clock?
Bloody ridiculous.
And before anyone mentions church bells - that's part of the Christian tradition.
If anyone can find historical evidence of Islam traditionally using loudspeakers in the Middle Ages - I will withdraw my comments and apologise unreservedly.
.
I fully expect people to sound sanguine about multiple allowances for multiple wives...so many are afraid to speak their mind these days after all. Somehow the masses have been silenced for fear of sounding anti-foreigner. Brings tears to the eyes of an opinionated straight talker...although there are still a few left we're an endangered species....much to the delight of a few no doubt.
In fact, percy, I don't agree with that!
I'm too have opinions, I'm not afraid to speak my mind, I haven't been frightened into silence, and I do rather object to your assumption that you have a monopoly on straight talking, and that anyone who doesn't always see things your way must be either naive or cowed! :roll: :roll:
percy toboggan
03-Feb-08, 16:49
In fact, percy, I don't agree with that!
I'm too have opinions, I'm not afraid to speak my mind, I haven't been frightened into silence, and I do rather object to your assumption that you have a monopoly on straight talking, and that anyone who doesn't always see things your way must be either naive or cowed! :roll: :roll:
Madam, you take objection to the most innocuous of remarks - did I not state there 'were still a few left'?.....hardly a toboggan monopoly then. You seem to have picked up the cap I mentioned and planted it fairly and squarely atop your own head. So be it.
If anyone can find historical evidence of Islam traditionally using loudspeakers in the Middle Ages - I will withdraw my comments and apologise unreservedly.
.
I am sure they are simply using Loudspeakers T'annoy the residents. ;)
northener
03-Feb-08, 16:59
I am sure they are simply using Loudspeakers T'annoy the residents. ;)
Maybe that's why they use loudspeakers.
The locals all make a beeline for the Mosque to tell the Imam (or is it the Muezzin?) to belt up.
Result? Full mosque:D
Calling the Faithful to prayer? Fine by me. I like to hear it.
Using a loudspeaker in a community where everyone has a clock?
Bloody ridiculous.
And before anyone mentions church bells - that's part of the Christian tradition.
If anyone can find historical evidence of Islam traditionally using loudspeakers in the Middle Ages - I will withdraw my comments and apologise unreservedly.
.
Depends on what you define as Middle Ages..........the current Isamic Calendar is for the year 1429:)
northener
03-Feb-08, 17:08
Depends on what you define as Middle Ages..........the current Isamic Calendar is for the year 1429
.
Nobody likes a smartarse, Scotsboy.:D
1429: Great, only another 84 years and we English get to thrash the Scots at Flodden again:lol:
.
.
Nobody likes a smartarse, Scotsboy.:D
1429: Great, only another 84 years and we English get to thrash the Scots at Flodden again:lol:
.
......and we are already living on the past glory of Bannockburn!
.
Nobody likes a smartarse, Scotsboy.
1429: Great, only another 84 years and we English get to thrash the Scots at Flodden again:lol:
.Ach shaddapa yer face, we wur hevin' an off day.:confused
j4bberw0ck
03-Feb-08, 20:37
I am sure they are simply using Loudspeakers T'annoy the residents. ;)
Scorrie, that's a nice one. <Tips hat in Scorrie's direction>.
I do enjoy a good pun.
...whether you want one or not?
There is a campaign underway in Oxford, surely the quintissential English city to resist plans to broadcast an amplified 'call to prayer' from the large new mosque which has been built there, in an area incidentally where few muslims live.
I could be wrong but I thought it was illegal to have a permanently sited loud speaker giving messages in a public place/street.
Not at all. The etymology of the word "peal" is quite definitive.
I'll get my coat......
Heh - my "ridiculous" was in response to your post #26, not #27.
Polygamy is illegal in the UK - people moving here from countries that practice it need to reassess their desire to live here if they are unwilling to live by our laws.
Just as when someone from the UK goes to live in a country which has different, stricter laws on certain things, needs to change their ways to follow the laws of the country to which they move.
Rheghead,
I'm sure that the rules will be bent to ensure that their speakers get special dispensation from UK laws....[disgust]
Maybe that's why they use loudspeakers.
Aye, the faithful are totally unaware, then hear the sound and say "Oh, is that the time? Mosque Go!!"
j4bberw0ck
03-Feb-08, 22:48
Heh - my "ridiculous" was in response to your post #26, not #27.
Awww c'mon, Pict; have you so little faith in me? :lol::lol:
Bobinovich
03-Feb-08, 23:16
I am sure they are simply using Loudspeakers T'annoy the residents. ;)
Aye, the faithful are totally unaware, then hear the sound and say "Oh, is that the time? Mosque Go!!"
Stop it! Your killin' me [lol]!
Heh - my "ridiculous" was in response to your post #26, not #27.
Polygamy is illegal in the UK - people moving here from countries that practice it need to reassess their desire to live here if they are unwilling to live by our laws.
Just as when someone from the UK goes to live in a country which has different, stricter laws on certain things, needs to change their ways to follow the laws of the country to which they move.
Rheghead,
I'm sure that the rules will be bent to ensure that their speakers get special dispensation from UK laws....[disgust]
Polygamy may be, but all they would need to do is have a wife and a mistress. They also get double the benefits that way - yes I have seen this happen.
helenwyler
03-Feb-08, 23:28
Stop it! Your killin' me [lol]!
Agreed Bobinovich!
They're on great form tonight:D. Thanks lads!
Awww c'mon, Pict; have you so little faith in me? :lol::lol:
If I am going to put my faith in anything it would be your 5l1thy t0ves gyr1ng and g1mb4lling in the w4be....
Big hughie
03-Feb-08, 23:43
The source of the worry sir, is a hostility to having the ways of a minority foisted upon the majority.
OK theres a lot of people in Caithness who might agree with you rightly or wrongly
Beeg Hugheeeeeee
Madam, you take objection to the most innocuous of remarks - did I not state there 'were still a few left'?.....hardly a toboggan monopoly then. You seem to have picked up the cap I mentioned and planted it fairly and squarely atop your own head. So be it.
Oh dear, percy, I have no idea which item of headgear you're referring to here -but I must say, I do just love being called 'Madam'! :D ;)
Oh dear, percy, I have no idea which item of headgear you're referring to here -but I must say, I do just love being called 'Madam'!
You do?:eek:
Career ops abound up north...we hear!;)
You do?
Career ops abound up north...we hear!
Lol karia, not a madam :eek:, just 'madam', delusions of grandeur perhaps - but failing that, 'missus' or 'wifie' will do just fine! ;)
helenwyler
04-Feb-08, 00:38
You do?:eek:
Career ops abound up north...we hear!;)
Disambiguation: Depending on which syllable the stress is placed, the word, whether spelt madam or madame, has entirely different connotations. Misconstructions of the written form are inevitable, but should be carefully avoided.
blimey ladies..I was thinking more of
'Call me Madam'...but perhaps the giggle function is down wi all the snow!;)
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