View Full Version : Got your passport for Orkney?
Buttercup
16-Jan-08, 00:47
"Have you got your passport?" ~ well photo ID anyway ~ will soon be the shout before heading for the Orkney Show. Whatever next? :roll:
http://www.northlinkferries.co.uk/default.aspx.locid-00gnew3b5.Lang-EN.htm (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.northlinkferries.co.uk/default.aspx.locid-00gnew3b5.Lang-EN.htm)
"We know who you are and we know where to find you!" I wonder when they will get round to putting cameras in our houses so they can check when we move from room to room and find who comes to visit us? :eek:
Just go by the Gills or Groats one. Don't think they are doing this but maybe I wrong.
j4bberw0ck
16-Jan-08, 10:33
Were I running Pentland Ferries and had just spent £10 million on a nice new boat that needed paying for, I'd think Northlink had arranged for my birthday and Christmas to fall all on the same day...... idiots.
I cannot see a problem with this, you have to produce photographic proof when boarding any Easy Jet, Ryan Air flights, and a much more restrictive selection of proof is asked by Easy Jet.
webmannie
16-Jan-08, 11:48
Think it`s a good thing, don`t want any undesirables coming into the county.
webmannie
16-Jan-08, 11:50
In fact thinking on it further, think i`ll start up a petition for cross county border checks, should help the unemployment figures.
j4bberw0ck
16-Jan-08, 14:23
I cannot see a problem with this, you have to produce photographic proof when boarding any Easy Jet, Ryan Air flights, and a much more restrictive selection fo proof is asked by Easy Jet.
And they have in common with Northlink, errrr.............?
What threat do Northlink claim to be combating? The massed ranks of the Orkney Taliban are indeed fearsome...... there is however, a suspicious lack of suicide bombing, car bombs, and even (whisper it soft) ethnic minorities of the sort generally associated with such outrages.
So now the only way of getting to and from Orkney, except for Pentland Ferries, involves having an ID check. Does no one else think that's a downright disgrace is this country which pretty much invented the concept of freedom - or at least laid down the principles of it in law?
I can see extended loading times, arguments and unpleasantness over forgotten ID, or unsuitable ID. I can see huge problems because there are many, many people here of all ages who don't have a passport or photocard driver's licence. And I can see people like me who won't be using Northlink again........ because I have a choice.
You need photo ID to go to on a domestic flight to Orkney.
j4bberw0ck
16-Jan-08, 14:41
You need photo ID to go to on a domestic flight to Orkney.
By 'eck, no kidding? Nice to see you've not lost your gift for statements of the bleedin' obvious.... :lol::lol: Let's apply a little intelligence, instead of a crude comparison:
Flights are affected by Control Orders from the Government. Whether they do any good or not is highly debatable. Aberdeen or Edinburgh airport are much bigger and more difficult to control than Scrabster or Stromness; they have multiple passenger origins and multiple destinations; you can't easily segregate Orkney or Shetland passengers for different treatment, especially if they're flying onwards.
Northlink sails between remote destinations and in fact, it's a closed system. You can't enter it from, say Syria, without having got through UK border security first. Home-grown terrorists might, I suppose, want to blow up a few islanders but then I'd ask how Northlink have assessed the threat?
Ferry companies are essentially different; the risks are different and the control environment is different. The fact that people checking in for flights need ID just means that they go by boat instead, where it's an issue. Northlink, on its own "authority" seems to me to have little right to restrict people's right to travel.
People, on the other hand, have the right to vote with their wallets, and I hope people will choose Pentland Ferries in future!
Northlink sails between remote destinations and in fact, it's a closed system. You can't enter it from, say Syria, without having got through UK border security first.
Doesn't Stromness or Kirkwall have a marina of sorts? Major drug trafficking is done in small yachts and stuff, they can gain access to the UK mainland via northlink ferries then.
j4bberw0ck
16-Jan-08, 15:00
Doesn't Stromness or Kirkwall have a marina of sorts? Major drug trafficking is done in small yachts and stuff, they can gain access to the UK mainland via northlink ferries then.
Gee whiz, yes. Or they could sail their small boat to avoid the sniffer dogs which are often in use in Shetland and have been used in Orkney.
We'd need to be careful of Venusians too - having landed their flying saucers in North Ronaldsay, they come in to Kirkwall by the Orkney Fairies service, then get the Northlink boat to go south to try to find our leaders.
Happens all the time. Not an issue for the most part; I imagine they'll continue to use Pentland Ferries and so not get ID checked at all.
Buttercup
16-Jan-08, 15:04
Doesn't Stromness or Kirkwall have a marina of sorts? Major drug trafficking is done in small yachts and stuff, they can gain access to the UK mainland via northlink ferries then.
Why would they go to Orkney by small yacht just to board a ferry to come to the mainland? There are lots of small craft use Scrabster anyway. :confused
Think it`s a good thing, don`t want any undesirables coming into the county.
Who would want to go there anyway? Went once. Was blown off my feet. Did not meet a true Orcadian. Everything cost a fortune. Naw, stay on the mainland.
Why would they go to Orkney by small yacht just to board a ferry to come to the mainland? There are lots of small craft use Scrabster anyway. :confused
You have probably made the first mistake of trying to guess and assume any terrorists would not do such a thing. If that was the case then the terrorists now have an open door and unchallenged into our country.
Buttercup
16-Jan-08, 15:23
You have probably made the first mistake of trying to guess and assume any terrorists would not do such a thing. If that was the case then the terrorists now have an open door and unchallenged into our country.
No Rheghead, I would never underestimate terrorists. Just wondered why anyone would bother and if they did, what bearing needing photo ID for Northlink had to do with it? :confused Sorry, if I'm being a bit dense, just don't get it.
And they have in common with Northlink, errrr.............?
I can see huge problems because there are many, many people here of all ages who don't have a passport or photocard driver's licence. And I can see people like me who won't be using Northlink again........ because I have a choice.
Excuse me Jabber, Nothlink carry passengers!!!! Thats what they have in common.
Where does it say only passport or photcard driver's licence are to be the only form of identification for Northlink? There are many forms of identification that are to be accepted.
I and many thousands of Senior Citizens in Scotland travel on buses each day in Scotland, and we are asked to show photographic ID. Thousands of bus travellers on Lothian Buses and bus companies all over the UK, all have photographic ID (their season tickets), do they or the Senior Citizens create a fuss?............ I think thou doth protest too much Jabber
j4bberw0ck
16-Jan-08, 16:24
If that was the case then the terrorists now have an open door and unchallenged into our country.
They do anyway. Not one single solitary immigration control officer for miles and miles. Whaligoe Steps, anyone?
There's the issue of imposing "security" sufficient to stop people being able to get in and out of the country. How draconian do you want it to be? Like East Germany used to be? Shoot to kill policies? Barbed wire?
Photo ID?
Oh woops....... :eek:
j4bberw0ck
16-Jan-08, 16:34
Nothlink carry passengers!!!! Thats what they have in common.
True, golach. But that's to miss the point that there's a single, closed transport loop for their services, unlike Aberdeen or Edinburgh airports. Might as well have the local taxi firm insist on photo ID before they carry you.
Where does it say only passport or photcard driver's licence are to be the only form of identification for Northlink? There are many forms of identification that are to be accepted.
Here, (http://www.orcadian.co.uk/) for a start, and Radio Orkney also.
I and many thousands of Senior Citizens in Scotland travel on buses each day in Scotland, and we are asked to show photographic ID.
Yeah, that's because you're a suspicious-looking bunch. Especially you :lol::lol: !
Seriously, yes, you do produce photo ID, but that's because your card has some sort of value to someone who finds it in the street, if it can't be associated with you as an individual. The real issue with photo id is whether people take any notice; one bank trialled photo id on their cheque card / debit card a few years ago. It was going to reduce fraud at a stroke!
As a control, a batch of cards showing a baboon's head and shoulders were produced and sent out with mystery shoppers. Not a one was picked up by shop assistants - they saw the photo, but didn't LOOK at it. In other words, it becomes a box-tick rather than exercising common sense.
Here, (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.orcadian.co.uk/) for a start, and Radio Orkney also..
http://www.northlinkferries.co.uk/default.aspx.locid-00gnew3b5.Lang-EN.htm
Go straight to the horses mouth Jabber, and you will get the truth, don't believe every thing you read in hick papers [lol]
luskentyre
16-Jan-08, 20:14
I see paranoia is alive and well and living in the north. Who cares if you're asked to provide photo ID? Is it really such an ordeal to be able to prove that you are who you say you are (assuming you can)?
As Northlink state, this would bring them into line with other transport providers. It could also potentially help with criminals, missing persons and even identity fraud.
Restricting your freedom? Oh please...
orkneylass
16-Jan-08, 20:40
Realistically we have to consider older people that don't have a driving license or passport, families with children etc. Tourists or relatives of local people who have been coming here for years will be taken by suprise.
My main concern though is that these are vehicle ferries - if there is considered to be some sort of threat, how are they going to search every vehicle?
We have had "home grown" terrorists, many of whom have been to visit Pakistan, so they must have had passports. When you travel by plane, you and all you take with you is scanned.
Given that nothing equivalent to this can happen, what on earth is the point meant to be?
Correct me if I am wrong, but do Islanders get so many rebated fares on ferrys and aircraft?
If they do, could this not be a way that Northlink are setting up, to stop miss use of this rebate system?
This is just a theory.:confused
Buttercup
16-Jan-08, 21:39
I see paranoia is alive and well and living in the north. Who cares if you're asked to provide photo ID? Is it really such an ordeal to be able to prove that you are who you say you are (assuming you can)?
As Northlink state, this would bring them into line with other transport providers. It could also potentially help with criminals, missing persons and even identity fraud.
Restricting your freedom? Oh please...
Certainly not paranoia luskentyre. Many people just do not have photo ID, myself included, and the annual trip to the Orkney show will now be a thing of the past, unless you go via John O'Groats. I think it will also affect the tourist trade as lots of folks on holiday take the chance, when they're up here anyway, to nip across but will be turned away when they've no ID. And what about kids? How do you get ID for them without resorting to buying a passport? But, maybe I'm wrong. I just wish the government would hurry up and bring in ID cards once and for all, it would save a lot of hassle for a lot of folk.
luskentyre
16-Jan-08, 23:26
Buttercup - I think you've made a perfectly valid point about some people not having photo ID. I hope this is well publicised so that people planning travel can at least try to organise a suitable kind of identification.
The paranoia remark was aimed at those who believe it's a facist plot to restrict our freedom somehow...
Ah shucks, so I can't take the kids without photo ID? Och well, another excuse to leave them with GrannyBurd methinks, so MrBurd and I can get a wee weekend away in peace [lol]!
j4bberw0ck
17-Jan-08, 00:06
http://www.northlinkferries.co.uk/default.aspx.locid-00gnew3b5.Lang-EN.htm (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.northlinkferries.co.uk/default.aspx.locid-00gnew3b5.Lang-EN.htm)
Go straight to the horses mouth Jabber, and you will get the truth, don't believe every thing you read in hick papers [lol]
Believe me, golach, already read it. You know what I do for a living; I'm here to tell you it's a problem. I saw 4 people today, 2 of whom - in their 30's and 40's,weren't able to produce the ID necessary to travel under Northlink's new rules. Ludicrous. Hey: I'm an incomer, even if I've been here for years and years; passport; photo id, the lot. It's not me it hits. It's the Orcadians who have the problem; them, and the tourists who get to Scrabster and find that Northlink won't take them.
Luskentyre, you've fallen into the fatal "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" trap. "All that's necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". Edmund Burke, UK parliamentarian, 1729 -1794.
Believe me, golach, already read it. You know what I do for a living; I'm here to tell you it's a problem. I saw 4 people today, 2 of whom - in their 30's and 40's,weren't able to produce the ID necessary to travel under Northlink's new rules. It's not me it hits. It's the Orcadians who have the problem; them, and the tourists who get to Scrabster and find that Northlink won't take them.
Northlink like Easy Jet, are mostly a book on line system as we were when we came up in Oct, and I would presume, they would inform passengers on their booking forms that photographic id is necessary, Easy Jet has done this for years.
I would assume Northlink would have thought this out before deciding on this policy.
j4bberw0ck
17-Jan-08, 00:17
I would assume Northlink would have thought this out before deciding on this policy.
Golach, me old beauty, you have soooo much more faith than I do........
I don't think they've thought about it at all!
Margaret M.
17-Jan-08, 01:30
I guess I am so accustomed to having an ID and presenting it frequently that I failed to see this as a big deal when I read it. I can understand children not having an ID but what do adults use for ID for things such as opening a bank account? Is there no type of acceptable ID other than a passport?
Metalattakk
17-Jan-08, 03:46
Correct me if I am wrong, but do Islanders get so many rebated fares on ferrys and aircraft?
If they do, could this not be a way that Northlink are setting up, to stop miss use of this rebate system?
This is just a theory.:confused
Nah, it's just Orkney Police trying yet another avenue in their attempts to catch the 'Orkney Graffiti Artist' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/6946978.stm).
I have no passport, either has my child and have no intention of going abroad. My husband does have one though. Why should I have to get a passport for my child to take them to Orkney where we go nearly every year? As long as Andrew Banks doesn't do this we'll be alright.
They do anyway. Not one single solitary immigration control officer for miles and miles. Whaligoe Steps, anyone?
Now you are playing on the ridiculous. A strawman in effect. You are trying to get me to justify why immigration isn't in attendence at Whaligoe steps when all we are discussing is some very low key security measures at Northlink ferries.
A totally pointless and unnecessary exercise.
I travel to Northern Ireland most times I come back to the UK, and photo ID has never been requested on either the Seacat nor Stena. True there are Special Branch at the ports who sometimes question you as to where you are going etc - but never been asked for photo ID.
j4bberw0ck
17-Jan-08, 14:44
Now you are playing on the ridiculous. A strawman in effect. You are trying to get me to justify why immigration isn't in attendence at Whaligoe steps when all we are discussing is some very low key security measures at Northlink ferries.
Rheggers, Rheggers, do please settle down. I'm trying to do no such thing; I simply pointed out that anyone who wants to land in this country from the sea can do so without let or hindrance, since the Government removed Customs and Immigration officers from the North of Scotland. Whaligoe Steps sprang to mind simply as a convenient place locally where some obliging folk long ago even left moorings and a set of steps.
And the major issue on the Northlink proposals is that many people in Orkney don't have the ID that Northlink themselves say they will require. There are issues of freedom to travel, and why the hell should I produce ID in my own country to travel on a boat with no international link, but my main objection is the stupidity of the proposal.
j4bberw0ck
17-Jan-08, 14:55
Is there no type of acceptable ID other than a passport?
Bank accounts are a bit different; they're governed by the Money Laundering Regulations and so there's a short list of acceptable forms of ID to comply.
Northlink's requirements are laid out on their website, and believe me when I say there are a good number of people here who don't have the necessary ID. I see them all the time in the work I do.
Being expected to produce ID in work is fair enough; you wouldn't want strangers in your house, either. Being expected to produce photo id to travel on an internal ferry boat service is a bit Soviet Union-esque, don't you think?
Whatever next? Produce photo-id when you buy petrol for your car because (a) it's flammable and might be a bomb-making materiel, or (b) you might be driving to London to bomb Downing Street?
Point (b) should ensure a once-over from some Security operation somewhere, anyhoo..... :lol::lol:
luskentyre
17-Jan-08, 19:31
Luskentyre, you've fallen into the fatal "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" trap. "All that's necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". Edmund Burke, UK parliamentarian, 1729 -1794.
I assure you, I've fallen into no trap. I'm not the one seeing enemies left, right and centre. "Triumph of evil"? I've heard Northlink are a little pricy - but evil?
Big hughie
18-Jan-08, 00:22
...I was told today that Scrabster has some sort of control plan that allows all sorts of powers to search / ID folk who arrive and depart ie illegal immigrants ,prevention of terrorism etc in the case of emergency It has this control because it is near Dounreay so maybe Northlink have imposed this in case some bearded Orcadian terrorist wants to come over and steal some of the low level waste that Dounreay does or doesnt have.....either that or some Orkney firm has started making windmills and wants to illegally smuggle it into Caithness....
A total nonsense ..if we want to go down this road we might as well get the school buses to do the same as often as not there are as many folk on them as Northlink sails with in winter
Strange how a control freak of a Westminster government seems to spread its tenticles Maybe Jack Straw and his mates have decided to leave the masons and oddfellows alone and decided to target Orcadians !!!!!!
Beeeeeggg Hughieeeeeeeeeeee
Just another example of our freedoms being eroded and it will get worse.
luskentyre
18-Jan-08, 00:59
Just another example of our freedoms being eroded and it will get worse.
Sorry, but that's utter twaddle. Tell me, how is your freedom being eroded by being asked to prove who you are? Are you unable to?
Big hughie
18-Jan-08, 09:17
Tell me, how is your freedom being eroded by being asked to prove who you are? Are you unable to?
By forcing folk with out passports or such forms of identification to obtain them
This must be about the only internal ferry in the EU with this idea In fact under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement you can travel freely on international ones without need for a passport (as I did on about 8-9 ferries last year)
Of course the UK is not in the agreement .....why ??
It seems to work very well in my experience
Beeeg Hugheeeeeeeeeeeeee
Sorry, but that's utter twaddle. Tell me, how is your freedom being eroded by being asked to prove who you are? Are you unable to?No, I'm a sleeper agent for the haggis liberation front.
luskentyre
18-Jan-08, 20:47
Tell me, how is your freedom being eroded by being asked to prove who you are?
By forcing folk with out passports or such forms of identification to obtain them
And that erodes your freedom how exactly? By allowing you to travel more? Ah, I see...
luskentyre
18-Jan-08, 20:50
No, I'm a sleeper agent for the haggis liberation front.
Well that only proves this is a good thing. The fewer Haggi we have being liberated the better! Pesky things...
I never have nor intend to do anything illegal but I feel very strongly that our basic rights to privacy are being invaded at every turn. We have surveillance cameras everywhere, even in residential areas, very Orwellian, never in my years until now would such a thing have been contemplated. Biometric passports, photo ID, where does it all stop? The Micro-chipped human is next in Britain, it is happening in Mexico, it will happen here. Governments are taking too much control over our lives and god only knows how this is going to pan out for our children and grandchildren. Maybe I am just being paranoid about those tesco clubcards where they have a record of everything you purchase or sky tv knowing what you watch and when you watch it.[lol]
luskentyre
19-Jan-08, 11:49
I never have nor intend to do anything illegal but I feel very strongly that our basic rights to privacy are being invaded at every turn. We have surveillance cameras everywhere, even in residential areas, very Orwellian, never in my years until now would such a thing have been contemplated. Biometric passports, photo ID, where does it all stop? The Micro-chipped human is next in Britain, it is happening in Mexico, it will happen here. Governments are taking too much control over our lives and god only knows how this is going to pan out for our children and grandchildren. Maybe I am just being paranoid about those tesco clubcards where they have a record of everything you purchase or sky tv knowing what you watch and when you watch it.[lol]
TBH - you're absolutely correct when you suggest there is more personal data recorded now than ever before. However, this is largely for commercial reasons e.g. your Tesco clubcard, junk mailing lists, spam etc.
As for CCTV, I fully support it, even in residential areas it can be vital in providing evidence (or as a deterrent). Why else would people install their own CCTV outside their houses, other than for security reasons? As for surveillance, you don't honestly think that someone is on the end of each camera, watching you do you? The manpower involved in reviewing CCTV footage is extensive, and that's when looking for something specific in response to an incident.
People tend to focus on the negative all the time but they don't imagine how these initiative can be used to make us feel safer and able to have more freedom. Security isn't necessarily a bad word! Imagine someone acquired your credit card details and booked flights (or even a ferry trip...) with the card. How are they going to use those tickets without photo ID?
Yes it's a cliche to say "if you've done nothing wrong, you've nothing to fear" - but it's true. The last time I checked, being yourself wasn't a crime.
j4bberw0ck
20-Jan-08, 11:49
Imagine someone acquired your credit card details and booked flights (or even a ferry trip...) with the card. How are they going to use those tickets without photo ID?
My God! Of course! Luskentyre's solved the entire question of credit card fraud at a stroke! Photo id with every transaction!
Tell you what,L., why not speed things up at the checkout and make it easier for those CCTV cameras to ID you? All you need is a national database, and a bar-code tattooed on your forehead! In fact with that you don't even need the plastic card and photo ID!!! No confusion, ever again!
Yes it's a cliche to say "if you've done nothing wrong, you've nothing to fear" - but it's true. The last time I checked, being yourself wasn't a crime.Not at the moment, no. And in 1984, Winston Smith was never guilty of just being himself. He was guilty of wanting things and thinking things the State didn't want. And who's to say that can't happen here in the future? We already recently started to prosecute people for Thought Crimes, just as Orwell foresaw. And the legal protections you've enjoyed all your life that prevent such things are being given away; the UK has now given up habeas corpus and you can now be tried in your absence by a European magistrate, without a jury. If found guilty you will be arrested and deported. The UK has never permitted trials in absentia because they're too easy to use as a tool of oppression.
So what needs to be considered, before you give up your freedoms and protections willy-nilly to a corrupt bunch of wasters who now form the UK Regional Government (aka Westminster) is that actually, you're giving them up to an unelected and unaccountable elite Politburo in Brussels who form our real Government. And they have the power, literally, to lock you up and throw away the key just because they don't like you, should they feel so moved. Now, what stands between where we are now, and that thing happening? In principle, only the fact that you haven't been brought to their attention in the wrong way.......
Anyone else feel an Orwellian chill blowing? Do please say if you do.....
Of course we are heading towards a future like orwell wrote about !!!
Its not just cctv, but also like others have said they know via supermakets where you shop, what you buy, how often and how much you spend on average. Top that with cash withdrawls from atm's, your mobile phone can be traced to where ever you are, your calls can be brought up in a flash to see who you called. Driving your car on motorway, they can plot your path, congestion charges show when and where you are at a given time. Your internet browsing habits are logged, you e mails may be read !! even watching sky tv can show what you watch and how often !
your doctor / dental records are available to the powers that be, how much you earn will be on record somewhere.
everything you do is being recorded on camera or logged, infringing your freedom or civil liberties? depends how you look at it, maybe not yet but its not far away !
If you lived in an area where there is a lot of cctv cameras, i reckon they could if they wanted show you from the minute you leave your house going to work, where you went in between and coming home at end of night, including cash withdrawls, mobile calls etc etc all can be brought into play very easily.
were doomed i tell ya doomed :eek:
Gee whiz, yes. Or they could sail their small boat to avoid the sniffer dogs which are often in use in Shetland and have been used in Orkney.
We'd need to be careful of Venusians too - having landed their flying saucers in North Ronaldsay, they come in to Kirkwall by the Orkney Fairies service, then get the Northlink boat to go south to try to find our leaders.
Happens all the time. Not an issue for the most part; I imagine they'll continue to use Pentland Ferries and so not get ID checked at all.
No need to go as far as Venus Jabber, in one of todays Scots newspapers a little snippet.
Drug swoop on isles ferry!
A ferry passenger has been charged over a £70k cocaine stash found by a sniffer dog on a ship leaving Skye for Harris. This is the largest class A drugs haul in the Western Isles.
A question? How did it get to Skye in the first place? Yes we need to be careful
j4bberw0ck
21-Jan-08, 10:06
How did it get to Skye in the first place? Yes we need to be careful
On a small boat - be it a fishing boat or a pleasure boat. But how would photo ID help detect drugs? It certainly wouldn't have stopped the London Tube bombings, and didn't stop the Madrid bombings. Is it that the sniffer dog would feel more confident, bless its wet and sensitive little nose, if it could check your piccie first? :lol::lol:
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